God bless those who serve our nation, and protect it from those who would harm it.

Posted by: special_guest at May 28, 2007 2:48 PM

Robert said

Let us not just honor them today, but, each in our way, seek to emulate them.

Very true. There is much we non-soldiers can do; much of this war is not fought on the battlefield. It is as much a war of knowledge as bullets. We have as much responsibility as they do to protect our society and our values.

We also owe it to our soldiers to make sure that they are put in harm's way only for the good of our nation, and for the good of our people. We are very grateful for the work they do. They and we should be clear on what their mission is, and be confident that the mission is realistic, and know that the benefits of that mission to our nation will be worth the cost to our nation. We owe them that much.

Posted by: special_guest at May 28, 2007 3:05 PM

Amen...

"The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected."

Sun Tzu, Art of War, Chapter 1

It is the first words of this 13 chapter masterpiece of warfare. It was true in 500 B.C. and it is true today. There have been various translations and some differ in the wording but the first lines are the same. It is a warning to those who neglict this import part of human history. It may not be what we wish it. Afterall we all want peace but the concept means different things to different people. What is ones mans peace is oppression to another. Thus war will be and always will play a role in the state.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at May 28, 2007 3:26 PM

Today, I went shopping for a few odds and ends that I forgot to buy.

I looked around at all the people and I noticed that there were very few American flags in the stores.

As I listened to the music that played, it was all "south of the border" music sung in spanish. The last I checked, it wasn't cinco de mayo -- it was Memorial Day.

I remember how glad I always am when I return to the states, because in all the world there is no place like it.

Many of us gave some and of course how can we forget those who gave all? Many of those didn't have a choice -- they were in the wrong place at the wrong time; perhaps had they moved an inch or two that way instead of this way?

Perhaps, if they had been delayed another five minutes or if this or that hadn't slow them down a minute or two they would still be with us?

If they could come back and see what has happened to America; and see what their loss really meant to us in America today, what would they say?

Thanks to all still serving.

Posted by: witness at May 28, 2007 4:04 PM

I think this would be apropos here:

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.

- John Stuart Mill

Cheers,

http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com

Posted by: Doctor Bulldog at May 28, 2007 4:09 PM

The Global Jihad challenges us on two fronts. This site is one of them because it is on the front lines of the ideological war against the Global Jihad, where the pen is mightier than the Sword of Allah. And that's a sharp pen.
Meanwhile, my thanks to everyone helping out on the other front!

Posted by: jewdog at May 28, 2007 4:15 PM

This evening, as we type on keyboards, thousands of men will put on boots and helmets. They will go out into the Iraqi streets and look at all the faces. They will follow their orders because it is their job. And the odds are that several will not be alive tomorrow.

God bless the men and families who are making the sacrifices.

Posted by: pez at May 28, 2007 4:16 PM

God bless our fallen heroes and be with their families. May their efforts and lives not have been in vain.

http://www.interviewwithgod.com/FDR_prayer/motion.htm

(A must listen on this day. Will we ever hear such a thing from a president again?)

-XRDC

Posted by: XRDC at May 28, 2007 4:29 PM

So true Mr. Spencer, so true. But I will add one thing - that when our national will and leaders (for a moment at least) seem intent on going to war for our nation's interests and security, then for God's sake, give our warriors the weapons, support, and full authority to wage that war to "absolute victory." Do not give them lawyers, rules of engagement, and all the other pc garbage they have been weighed down with these past five years. We had no hesitation destroying magnificent Christian sites like Monte Cassino or the city of Dresden, but today - where is that same will to destroy the Muslim enemy?

Posted by: HOV Dummy at May 28, 2007 4:30 PM

Greetings:

And a big "Amen."

Part of the the, excuse the expression, "pussification" process that is being inflicted on our society is the infantilization of the manhood of our country.

We are establishing a culture that no longer has the concept that it is sometimes proper not only to hit someone but to hit him first.

With a heavy Memorial Day heart, I'm keeping my powder dry and my hatchet as clean as a whislte.

Posted by: 11B40 at May 28, 2007 4:34 PM

THE BATTLEGROUND
The minds and hearts of men are the battle grounds of the Holy Spirit of God and the evil spirit of Satan.
Even though the human spirit has become weak in resisting sin, and blinded by falsehood, yet it can upon the enlightment of the gospel and encouraged by His Love can choose a rightious path of life. Jer 17:9
Only Jesus completely followed the light of the Holy Spirit (His Word) and He alone became the mold for victory over sin and death.
A consecration of life to the operation of the Holy Spirit of Truth is needed for victory. The mental and heart creation,-or the embryo of a new creation-, conditions the Christian faithfulness to a holy life in spite of persecution. g-paRev.

I give my thanks to all the soldiers of the past and now and future. They are the hearts of America! God Bless Our Soldiers and Their Family's

Posted by: MZ at May 28, 2007 4:44 PM

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse.
--- John Stuart Mill, quoted in a posting above

What contributes more to a "decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling" more than the exploitation of such "moral and patriotic feeling" for stupid ends, in which lives are squandered to attain goals not merely unattainable, but still worse, goals that make no sense, that are the exact opposite of what we should wish the outcome in Iraq to be.

That is what has demoralized the troops, who have on their second or third deployments come to dislike, to mistrust, even to hate the "Iraqis" (with one or two exceptions among the officers, who are deliberately given much, and much exaggerated, attention), and to see the futility of their enterprise, and of their sacrifice and that of others.

The morale of the military has been damaged. For it is the keenest soldiers, those who have served in Iraq and can no longer be fooled, who are least likely to believe in the supposed sense of the "mission."

It's quite an achievement, for the Bush Adminstration to have taken the patriotic feelings of those who, after the attack of 9/11/2001, and to cruelly exploit, and misuse, those feelings, and to ignore the will clearly expressed by the people (google "Andrew Bacevich" and "NPR" for more). This should not, and will not, be forgotten by those who care about the American military, and the right use of "moral and patriotic feeling." John Stuart Mill would have no problem taking sides; the folly of Tarbaby Iraq can hardly be hidden any longer from view.

Posted by: Hugh at May 28, 2007 4:56 PM

We honor their sacrifice on this day. The sacrifices made so that the freedoms we enjoy do not perish.

Those that use this day as a political forum, should be hung up by their winky's and beat with a stick.

I thank you folks at JW for the work you are doing and be aware that there are a lot of people behind your efforts.

Posted by: Robert at May 28, 2007 4:57 PM

Today is memorial Day, when those US troops who have fallen in battle for us (Brits as well as the US) should be remembered for their sacrifices. Tomorrow, however, is another memorial day which should serve as a reminder as to what can happen to a civilization which loses heart and the conviction to defend itself. Sadly, this one will escape the attention of all but the most committed historians and jihad watchers. For it will be the 554th anniversary of the fall of Constantinople in 1453, which was followed by three days of looting and murder by the victorious Jihadis. This is the fate of any nation that dares to fall to the Jihad - it will be destroyed and the carcass picked over. The Jihadis had spent the previous 825 years sapping the strength of thast empire, and that should be alesson for us - that we are up against an enemy that will nibble and gnaw away at us until the body of the West finally get eaten away, and if it takes 825 years to topple us, they will fight another 825 years (though we all know it will be much shorter - less than 125 years at this rate thanks to political correctness).

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at May 28, 2007 5:09 PM

For what ever side you are on, l know most support and hope the troops get back home safe and sound.
It saddems me that some of the best and most honourable people are getting killed by such an evil
cult that is not worth the paper the kuran is written on. l watched a segment this morning and wept when l saw a story about a young military person who had died, and he had befriended a puppy over in iraq, and his family brought the puppy over to the States. its makes me furious that this death cult does not appreciate life and goodness in a person. this death cult islam robs people of their humanity by taking away the freedoms we all accept here in the West. l for one truly apprciate the valour and honour these military people bring to this earth, and pray that we destroy this death cult sooner than later.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at May 28, 2007 5:13 PM

Of course I have no lock on the truth, but I believe that if the American people thought the current war in Iraq was truly in their interest, they would be solidly behind the military in deeds as well as words. As with Vietnam, this has a bogus feel to it and I think that leaves people uninvolved. We knew that WWII was life or death for us and support was not a big problem (although I believe it was not as universal as we'd like to think).

Posted by: Seymour Paine at May 28, 2007 5:16 PM

A big thank you to our troops for what you do. Oh, and congratulations on winning in Iraq - too bad the cretins in Washington on either side fail to see that.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 28, 2007 5:19 PM

I just want to thank you, Robert, for this beautiful tribute. This day should be bittersweet for all of us, as we are so fortunate to be here. But it has come with BRAVE sacrifice, and I just want to know if everyone realizes what is to come of us...Are we READY to sacrifice "again" to sustain our freedom? We need to get this point across to our fellow Americans before we even face the enemy...it's an uphill battle w/ so many of these pathetic jerks, they just don't get it...
What's it gonna take for so many people to realize that we fight an "ideology" not just people from another country that didn't ask us to be there????? I'm sooooo sick of all the naysayers. My gut tells me that we will have to eliminate a lot of our own to re-claim our freedom....unfortunately...

Posted by: letfreedomring at May 28, 2007 5:19 PM

With respect, that's not entirely true about popular culture ignoring those who fight. Witness the recent '300', and I could name a dozen of less well known, perhaps more 'subversive' ones that similarly realise the values of honour and loyalty.

Point? It's still around, even if it is clandestine.

Posted by: Fanusi Khiyal at May 28, 2007 5:20 PM

Of remembering that there is in Judeo-Christian civilization, and in all civilizations that are threatened by the jihadist imperative of Islamic supremacism, something worth fighting and dying for.

Also, it is important to emphasize that there is something worth killing the enemy for.

I've always been partial to Patton's command to "The goal of war isn't to dies for one's country, but to make the other guy die for his country", although, of course, it doesn't always work out that way.

I haven't hated anything as much as I hate Islam since the fall of Communism. I was happy not to hate anyone for a while there, but then 9/11 happened.

Posted by: venividivici at May 28, 2007 5:21 PM

May God bless those who gave their lives for our freedom.

Some signs from Protest Warriors that apply here:
http://www.protestwarrior.com/new_signs.php?sign=44

My favorite
http://www.protestwarrior.com/new_signs.php?sign=1

Take a look at all of them...they're all too good to miss.
http://www.protestwarrior.com/signs.php?thumb=1

Posted by: interestinconundrum at May 28, 2007 5:50 PM

"All we need to do is understand each other a little better, show the opposition that we are really good fellows after all, win over a few hearts and minds, teach the children not to hate, and voila, all will be well, and all manner of thing will be well."

Right on the mark! That's exactly the mentality Chamberlain went to Munich with: That all people are reasonable and basically decent, and they'll respond to others who share those traits in a reasonable and decent manner. All Hitler wanted in Chamberlain's thinking was to right the wrongs foisted on Germany by the treaty of Versailles, and to bring Germans back to the protection of their Fatherland.

Indeed these wouldn't have been unreasonable asperations if Hitler were a decent and honorable human beign. If Chamberlain had not been captive to the ideology that all people are basically good, and respond to goodness and sincerity in others, he might not have been taken in as he was.

A short time after Munich, when Hitler was preparing to invade Poland, his Generals warned him that England and France might declare war if he attacked Poland, he refused to believe them. His response was, "They're worms, I saw them at Munich."

That's the kind of evil that chamberlan faced accross the negotating table at Munich, but was so blinded the ideology of the basic decency of all people, that he couldn't see it. Europe and the soon regreted his blindness.

I hope the world never has cause to regret our blindness to the Islamic agenda for this world, or to call us worms for failing to recognize evil when it's staring us in the face.

The resulsts of the next miscalculation will be far worse than in Chamberlain's time.

Posted by: rational at May 28, 2007 5:56 PM

To all of our troops at home and abroad, God bless and keep you all.

Posted by: Abscedere at May 28, 2007 5:58 PM

Robert Spencer excellently points out an irony: the frequent combination today, in the same persons, of paternalism and relativist multiculturalism.

Posted by: traeh at May 28, 2007 6:23 PM

A great essay!

News from downunder:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/05/28/ayaan-hirsi-ali-in-australia-soldiers-of-allah-go-ballistic/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 28, 2007 7:47 PM

The Swiss are fed up as well:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/05/28/switzerland-accept-swiss-laws-or-piss-off/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 28, 2007 7:50 PM

Robert
A fine and thoughtfully reasoned tribute to Soldiers who are expected to die in wars they believe in & even wars they don't endorse or believe in at all...
Agree with Seymour Paine-Iraq is NOT a war most ordinary Soldiers or Squaddies believe in-they hate the place & its people.Remember book written
by Jessica Lynch who was made into Poster Gal for
Bush Administration-she refutes their propaganda claims in her book & has lately done so in media-
she states'she hates Iraqis'[embarassingly not PC]and if she had a choice-'would have not gone to Iraq' and even more embarrassing bemoans her
injuries...In other words Pretty Poster Girl has turned into a'loose cannon' for likes of Georgie
Boy,Cheyney,& that other creep who did an exit call whose name for moment I can't recall.
The ordinary soldier KNOWS situation on the ground better than any Politician thousands of miles away in a comfortable office. Also he/she
have a GUT reaction-they realise people they've supposedly come to help & install democratic institutions-are in fact ALIENS-they could not be more alien if they lived on Planet Mars-apart from very real fact IRAQIS WANT TO KILL AMERICANS & cheer when they do! These 'pro American wouldbe democratic' Iraqis live as they
have always done in Tribes where violence & might is always right so to assassinate a rival
group's entire family is expected. Where women
can be killed by their relatives for some slight,real or imagined,to family 'honour.'
In other words these Iraqis depicted as 'Democratic' are in reality still living under
Barbaric Sharia Law-something which is quickly
enshrined into new 'Democratic Constitution' under very noses of stupid,ignorant Infidels.
Just like Afganistan,really, except Iraq has oil.
But ask yourself-is all the oil in the world worth tortured dying of thousands of young men & women for no other reason than Georgie Boy & his
cronies[including Blair] wanted to play Wargames.
They were emboldened by success of Kosovo-it was easy bombing Christian Serbs so they got carried
away with Iraq...And Iraq is a terrible shambles-
an abattoir couldn't look worse.If much maligned Milosevic was hauled to The Hague,certainly Bush,Blair & their generals should also stand trial as War Crims.
It is one thing to fight a war defending your own
land from invaders : quite another fighting for reasons none believe in including PR Firm who devised propaganda...

Posted by: Morgane at May 28, 2007 7:59 PM

God Bless those who gaved their all. We remember them. God Bless our vets. God Bless those who are serving now.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at May 28, 2007 8:18 PM

Here is the famous poem, "In Flanders Field"

In Flanders Field
1917 | Col John McCrae

"IN FLANDERS FIELDS the poppies blow Between the crosses row on row, That mark our place; and in the sky The larks, still bravely singing, fly Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow, Loved and were loved, and now we lie In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe: To you from failing hands we throw The torch; be yours to hold it high. If ye break faith with us who die We shall not sleep, though poppies grow In Flanders fields."

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at May 28, 2007 8:24 PM

Bless the hero's who died fighting to maintain freedom. Without them we would not have any.

From poster above: Those that use this day as a political forum, should be hung up by their winky's and beat with a stick.

Morgane...You better cover up your 'winky's, there is someone with a stick looking for you.

Posted by: duh_swami at May 28, 2007 8:29 PM

Here is a hymm and a prayer for Memorial Day.

"Memorial Day Hymn and Prayer"
Magnificat Magazine | May 2007 | Unknown

"HYMN

Remember, Lord, the fallen Who died in fields of war, In flaming clouds, in screaming crowds, On streets that are no more, That we today might waken And greet this day in peace With grateful prayer for those who bear The storms that never cease.

Remember friends and strangers, And those forgotten now, Whose names are known to You alone, Before whose love we bow And ask that You surround them With mercy's endless light That they may live, and we forgive The foe they went to fight.

Remember, Lord, the living, Who bear the pain of loss -- A death she died who stood beside Her Son upon the cross. Remember all Your children, The dead and those who weep, And make us one beneath the sun Where love will never sleep.

PRAYER

O God, in the death of Your only Son, You gave life to the world. Your love transcends the tragedies we create through conflict, the losses we endure, and above all the death we dread and mourn. Raise up in joy all those who have died in the Armed Forces, and grant peace to the world, through the mercy You have shown us in Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God forever and ever. Amen."

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at May 28, 2007 8:30 PM

Thank-you Robert for your Memorial Day reflection. Let this day be free of politics, let us simply remember the war dead and keep freedom alive.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at May 28, 2007 8:33 PM

God Bless the families of those serving now. God Bless the families of the fallen as well.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at May 28, 2007 8:36 PM

You can't have peace unless you're prepared to fight for it.

Everything worth its salt is paradoxical.

Full honors to those who are battling so that we- and they- may relish the liberty they guarantee today.

In Patton's words:

"Pressure makes diamonds."

(Or, for the grunts:)

"I have pissed in the Rhine. Now send gas."

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 28, 2007 8:39 PM

"What if we implement state-of-the-art hearts-and-minds initiatives, and conform to all their foreign policy and cultural demands, and they still hate us?"
This type of mentality is common among those who worship at the altars of Freemasonry, which has no one god as its central figure of worship, but permits the worship of any deity since Masons believe that all religions worship the "Grand Architect of the Universe". The idea that any religion would not be tolerant and accept other religions equally is alien to them. Interestingly, most politicians are Freemasons and Shriners who promote this ideology.

Posted by: Timur at May 28, 2007 8:45 PM

duh _swami
I've got my 'Winky Protection Nappies'[diapers]
on...

Here's a rather realistic verse from Rudyard Kipling.

-'When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a Soldier'-
[Seems things haven't changed much in Afghanistan].

Mean to mark this day by watching 'Born On The Fourth of July' & 'No Man's Land.' Yes,believe in
fighting for your beliefs,survival of Judeo Christian culture & Democracy but NOT in unneccesary Wars.At risk of being a 'Cyberspace
Punchbag' reiterate Iraq war is a DISASTER and will achieve ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like Vietnam war.
Except mountains of Dead which Ghengis Khan wouldn't be ashamed of.
Fellow JWatchers, save your ammunition & rhetoric
for the REAL WAR-AGAINST ISLAM!

Posted by: Morgane at May 28, 2007 9:23 PM

Morgane...enjoy the movies...But keep those winky's under raps...

Posted by: duh_swami at May 28, 2007 9:34 PM

""What if we implement state-of-the-art hearts-and-minds initiatives, and conform to all their foreign policy and cultural demands, and they still hate us?" "

Why in that case we are supposed to implement the Gandhi Option, I guess

The Limits of 'Turn the Other Cheek'

In 1940, when Hitler was scoring victory after victory throughout Europe, Gandhi addressed the following advice to the soldiers of Great Britain: "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions.... If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."
Two years earlier, in the months before World War II began, Gandhi reacted to the outrage of the Nazi-inspired Kristalnacht (the national pogrom of November 9 to 10, 1938) by offering the following advice to German Jews for overcoming Nazi anti-Semitism: "I am as certain as I am dictating these words that the stoniest German heart will melt [if only the Jews] . adopt active nonviolence. Human nature ... unfailingly responds to the advances of love. I do not despair of his [Hitler's] responding to human suffering even though caused by him."

Myself? I prefer the Jefferson Option

1787 Nov. 13. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

Posted by: Dan Kauffman at May 28, 2007 9:53 PM

Now here is something completely different yet I think very appropriate on this Memorial Day. I happened to catch this show on C-Span about a book called 'Grace under Fire' by Andrew Carroll. The book is a collection of letters written by solders and families on the subject of faith when they were in war. I could go on but instead here is a LINK to the book's site.

What I think is most important about these letters and ideas that they contain the contrast between what drives our solders and that of the enemy and of what is true and important.

PS The author is soliciting from the public any letters from any war written at the time the soldiers were in the service.

Posted by: LurKKKer at May 28, 2007 10:05 PM

LurKKKer:
Do you like the Klu Klux Klan? I ask because of your nickname, "LurKKKer."

Posted by: traeh at May 28, 2007 10:21 PM

Beautiful and fitting tribute, Robert Spencer. Thank you for writing it.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at May 28, 2007 10:38 PM

traeh

No, just being funny.

Posted by: LurKKKer at May 28, 2007 10:42 PM

Heard some substitute announcer on WABC tonight: he didn't seem at all politically correct about Islam.

I get the impression that about half the culture (dragging the other half kicking and screaming) is inching slowly forward along a broad front made of hundreds or thousands of writers, journalists, bloggers, radio people, who each day take on a slightly blunter and more confidently critical tone toward Islam. It's as if significant parts of U.S. culture are carefully inching forward over new intellectual and political territory every few weeks, testing the ground every risky step of the way.

Yes, we still hear from people living in the most bottomless abyss of ignorance, people who say, despite all the evidence, that the problem is not with the religion, the problem is U.S. foreign policy (never mind that Muslims are currently engaged in jihad terror all over the globe -- India, Philippines, Somalia, Sudan, and Thailand, for example -- in situations that have nothing significant to do with the U.S. Never mind that Islam has been engaged in militant jihad throughout some 1400 years.

But despite that ignorance, one detects a slow movement of the culture toward new ground. Robert Spencer is clearly one of the more important figures in that movement.

One of Robert Spencer's best protections is that the jihadists know that if they do him harm his work will gain perhaps a hundred times the attention it gets now. His books will be even more ubiquitous than they are now. In some ways he's a sort of MLK of the dhimmis. Putting his life on the line every day for equal rights and freedom.

Posted by: traeh at May 28, 2007 10:52 PM

The non-Western man is just a reactor.

More specifically, the leftist mind set believes that the Western World has created the Third World. So, if strife and violence emanates from the Third World, the fault, and responsibility to correct it, must be found with the creator.

In a perverse way, there is some truth to that. You can't have a Third World, unless you have a First World - at least semantically. For the Left, it is more than just semantics, however. The Left believes that the poverty and strife of the third world stem directly from the wealth and power of the first world. It is that relative imbalance that causes the problem, not culture, not books, not ethnicity, not blood, not religion.

So in order to correct this, the First World, and specifically, the leading nation of the First World, must relinquish wealth and power to achieve some sort of equilibrium to redress the imbalance. This is why the two great villains for the Left are American military power, personified by soldiers, and American corporations, personified by the oil companies.

Not surprisingly, their two solutions to these two great injustices are 1) transfer military power to the UN, and 2) convert private capital to state resources - communism. Then and only then, can the social injustices that cause world strife be eliminated.

So the solution rests with the creator - not with the created. In the same sense, the Left does not believe in the Original sin. That puts the onus on the created. This explains why atheism is the offical religion of the Left. The Created, ie., the Third World, is sin-free. The sinner is God, the creator. Since they can't bring themselves to believe in a sinful God like that, they reject the notion of God all together, and embrace human secularism and atheism in the heavens, and multiculturalism and moral relativism here on earth.

As asinine as that thinking is, it really explains the Leftist philosophy in a nutshell. It allows them to address the world's problems by abdicating discriminating thought and moral judgement. Understand that intellectual Faustian deal, and you'll understand the mental machinations of everybody from George Soros down to Rosie O'Donnell.

Posted by: jihadwatcher at May 28, 2007 11:29 PM

"Today those who believe we have moved beyond wars, beyond fighting, rule the day".-Robert

This is a delusion. War is part of man's existence, it is part of the biological conflict in nature, the struggle for existence we see everywhere. Even the trees of the forest battle for space, for dominance. Competition (beginning with the millions of sperm racing to the egg) and conflict impel man and groups of men to dominate another/others and "religion"-ideology are usually the rationalizations for underlying instincts that depend on our will to survive, our will and to dominate. And man only cooperates with others when there is a common enemy, a common threat, otherwise we are generally solitary and selfish and limit our attachments to immediate family-our to ourselves alone. (See how in the breakdown of communities under stress that there are always looters and gangs of looters.)

The nations of the world (which reflect our individual nature) will continue to make war unless we are invaded by an enemy from a distant galaxy and we are what's for dinner with the invader. Humans will always make war unless we face some outside force that causes us to unite or face common extinction. Otherwise, war on earth among humans must never go away.

Islam is a very effective rationalization for such underlying instincts. In the final analysis, it will have to be destroyed with ruthless force in the manner of Nazi Germany. But after that happens, there will be another enemy to face. There will always be enemies that will threaten the existence of a civilization. Wisdom here is the understanding that we are a part of nature and that war is inherent in nature everywhere.

It's not very consoling to face reality on this. But it is necessary to face reality on this in order to survive.

Posted by: Frank at May 28, 2007 11:48 PM

Mr. Spencer and Frank - I wish I'd said that.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at May 29, 2007 12:10 AM

A_Plague_on_Both_Houses-

Than you. Robert Spencer and Fizgerald and this site provoke a lot of thought.

Posted by: Frank at May 29, 2007 12:15 AM

I got tired of Google's silly politics and switched to Ask.com. They do the same job 99% of the time. Similar search, image, news, local business search, maps. They even seem to have better higher resolution satellite image coverage on their map option.

Posted by: justask at May 29, 2007 12:22 AM

Today those who believe we have moved beyond wars, beyond fighting, rule the day.

Posted by Robert

And that mentality is far more terrifying than Terrorism Itself. The world is a very dangerous Brutal and violent place with pockets of Humanity and good sprinkled throughout. If this mentality did not exist we could have already defeated Islamo Terrorism, Fascism, Communism and all that good stuff. That sort of thinking is an Insult to our ancestors who fought for the freedoms that so many seem determined to throw away .

Posted by: MoBlows at May 29, 2007 12:40 AM

Spirt of 1683,
I hear you on that demographic prediction of 125 years,but let's always remember one constant: Oppression breeds contempt and each generation always has its own potential Sparticus and like to champion the call(even from within some future POSSIBLE nightmare) Those who live for such a scenario as Muslim demographic domination, are "betting on a draw" as they say in the poker venacular.

Posted by: We need G.C. Scott at May 29, 2007 12:51 AM

Robert said: "..the politically correct mindset assumes that we have moved beyond all that.."

Yes, the mindset that produced a best-selling book called "All I ever needed to know I learned in Kindergarten", and says (and believes) that statement without a trace of irony.

Posted by: Brett_McS at May 29, 2007 2:20 AM

On this day of honoring our heroes killed or brutally damaged by battle, this highlights the shortcoming of the past few decades of 'taking the short view" of things, which i call a poison.
This poison, the short view infected our business processes - we can lose our manufacturing base as we are heading to a 'service' economy, Gee, wow, that sounds good.....but..
This poison led business leaders to focus on short term profits to the exclusion of long term effects.
This poison has also infected the military planners.
This poison has affected military strategies.
This poison has paralyzed Congressional planning.
Everything for the short view...do we stay or run?
Our enemy has seemingly always held to the long view, the very patient long view.
Our grandparents and generations before all took the long view in their decisions which history has shown to be the wiser tactic.
We need to pray for a leader that keeps the long view, is steadfast, honorable, and fearsome.
In the meantime keep your powder dry, your hatchets honed, maintain a state of readiness, promote the long view. We will need it to survive.
If enough of us repent and pray for mercy for our country's turning its back on Almighty God, perhaps His mercy will save us

Posted by: GA_boy at May 29, 2007 2:54 AM

Thank you Robert. You are right on as usual. I cannot count the times that I have talked myself blue in the face trying to make someone understand what it is we are up against.

Not a day goes by that I don't honor each and every service member. We live within shouting distance of one of our biggest Army bases and an AF Airlift base. It is always comforting to me to hear the practice of the howitzers and the planes flying. Rattling windows spells freedom to me. So Memorial Day is to me much more than grilling and another day off. It is all about those who are keeping us safe from harm.

Yet in my state, this is what Memorial Day meant to some. Someone desecrated a Veteran's cemetary and burned the American flags and replaced them with swastikas. Not once, but twice. How sick is that? It struck me right in the chest to see that. My husband is a USA 1st Cav vet and it made him spitting mad.

Here is the link:
http://www.komoradio.com/news/7718757.html

and yet it took all of our local stations about 9 minutes to get to the story this evening.

God bless all those who serve and especially those who gave their lives to keep us free and allow idiots like that to do what it is they do.

Posted by: TeamNfdL at May 29, 2007 2:55 AM

.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at May 29, 2007 3:06 AM

Bless the West and bless our troops.

War as the pointy end of the spear in the jihadis is the answer unless you're an effete European preening with supercilious intellectual "overview" to this war.

As well,we need to understand the challenge we face from the nature and background of the enemy.

Right now Iraq is real and far more useful and valuable, vital, and important than any facile characterization as a "tarbaby" with recondite reasoning from the dark side of Machiavelli.

Bless the West and bless our courageous fighters.

Posted by: dgene at May 29, 2007 4:31 AM

Real men are rare, we will miss this one...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 29, 2007 6:19 AM

Yes, sometimes a war it's necessary. But this particular one wasn't, Saddam did not pose any threat to the USA and Iraq did not harbor any terrorist.
Besides, you american are such bad soldiers, when it comes to fighting by any means other than planes! This war will end badly, and your president's mistakes will cost dearly not only to you, but also to any NATO country.

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 6:23 AM

"This war will end badly..."

Posted by: Brux-153

...yes, but not in the way you envison.....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 29, 2007 6:50 AM

This is not a critisism of you per se, it is of the eastern/Calf media who have no clue about the middle of the country. In Texas, we honor those who gave their lives for their country, even those of us who strongly disagree with our administration. In Texas we know the difference between sacrifice and posturing.

Posted by: eneri at May 29, 2007 6:53 AM

"when it comes to fighting by any means other than planes! ..."

Posted by: Brux-153

...until the US and the UN imposed the northern and southern NO FLY zones in Iraq, Sadaam Hussein routinely bombed the Kurds and others who he disliked....When Sadaams planes were shot down trying to bomb the Kurds, he sent in his tanks and proceeded to level every Kurdish home they could find....THe Kurds were forced to live in caves and tents for a long time....

....If the coalition air forces were as indiscriminate in regards as to whom died as the bombs fell, the current Iraq conflict would have been long ago ended....

...Muslim air power cares not as to whom it kills, while the coalitions air forces try very hard to attack only those who are attacking....

...you need to get a life...and quit listening to your Islamic slavemaster clerics...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at May 29, 2007 7:03 AM

In Italy, we also honor our fallen soldier. One of our officer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Calipari

was shot by U.S. soldier

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mario_Lozano

while rescuing an italian citizen.
The U.S. soldier has never even been interrogated by italian justice, Calipari died beacuse of Lozano incompetence.
What do you think we Italian should do to honor him?

Take care

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 7:06 AM

Brux-153 - honor your soldiers by teaching them to do a better job of identifying themselves and cooperating with their allies.

Posted by: Gary at May 29, 2007 7:32 AM

Wonderful posts from traeh , Morgane , Seymour Paine , Spirit Of 1683 , Hugh and jihadwatcher . And Robert Spencer's leader too , of course , but that basically goes without saying .

I hope Hugh doesn't burn the burgers

With regards to the US armed forces , I often think of the interview with a marine who fought in the island hopping battles in the Pacific . He still wakes up most mornings , shocked , at how on earth he managed to survive the carnage .

Posted by: ewha1 at May 29, 2007 7:55 AM

Gary, maybe you should teach your soldier how to use a machine gun. And, by the way teach your officers to manage PDF documents.

http://vowe.net/archives/005838.html
A competent army is always an asset.

USA destroyed Iraq's army in 1991. Then starved the place for 10 years. Then destroyed the army again. Also, USA is responsible for half of the world's military spending and owns the most powerful army that ever existed. How can that army *not* be able to subdue Iraq's resistance?

Well, nevermind. 10 -> 15 years from now Hollywood will be making a lot of money on "Iraq movies", quite similar to the Vietnam movies that did so well in the eighties.

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 8:40 AM

Gary, maybe you should teach your soldier how to use a machine gun. And, by the way teach your officers how to manage PDF documents.

http://vowe.net/archives/005838.html
A competent army is always an asset.

USA destroyed Iraq's army in 1991. Then starved the place for 10 years. Then destroyed the army again. Also, USA is responsible for half of the world's military spending and owns the most powerful army that ever existed. How can that army *not* be able to subdue Iraq's resistance?

Well, nevermind. 10 -> 15 years from now Hollywood will be making a lot of money on "Iraq movies", quite similar to the Vietnam movies that did so well in the eighties.

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 8:40 AM

And, Gary, I would like some respect for *our* fallen too...

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 8:43 AM

brux - people like You are running our government. And making our military work under politically-correct conditions. And micro-managing our army.

They are called Leftists. Sound familiar? The reporter that was being rescued is the same type.

The Jihadist already living in your cities don't give a Fig about Iraq. They DO give a fig about what they're going to do to your cities.

Have a good evening.

Posted by: Gary at May 29, 2007 8:45 AM

Well, Gary, it's true. Sgrena is a leftist and a bad journalist, from my perspective. But she's italian and Calipari was an italian soldier, an ally. That should be enough... As for our city, they wouldn't be in danger if it wasn't for that silly idea of starting a war you can't win. By the way, how come that bin laden fellow is still on the loose, after 6 years? Gross incompetence.
Enjoy the upcoming iraq movies, more american whining it's exactly what the world needs...

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 9:14 AM

Well, Gary, it's true. Sgrena is a leftist and a bad journalist, from my perspective. But she's italian and Calipari was an italian soldier, an ally. That should be enough... As for our city, they wouldn't be in danger if it wasn't for that silly idea of starting a war you can't win. By the way, how come that bin laden fellow is still on the loose, after 6 years? Gross incompetence?
Enjoy the upcoming iraq movies, more american whining it's exactly what the world needs...

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 9:14 AM

Brux-153, I have a pop-quiz for you, based on my 20 plus years as a Soldier... And two combat tours in Afghanistan.
What is the most dangerous part of a combat patrol????

I'll give you a hint, re-entry of friendly lines.

These are some of the steps you take to insure you are NOT fired upon by friendly troops when you attempt to re-enter friendly lines.
1. Designate a point to re-enter friendly lines in advance with the friendly unit you intend to pass through.
2. When you are ready to re-enter friendly lines, establish communications and send some sort of a visual signal to notify the unit you intend to pass through that you are there so they don't shoot you.
3. Link up with a guide from the unit you intend to pass through and identify and count the number of people in your unit so you can go through properly.

Your people FAILED to do this and that's why your officer is dead. This is basic Soldiering chum... Consult any NATO nation's Infantry manuals if you have any doubts.

Posted by: Armalite at May 29, 2007 9:18 AM

"As for our city, they wouldn't be in danger if it wasn't for that silly idea of starting a war you can't win."

You poor fool, Iraq is a mistake, but the global jihad has been going on since the pedophile mohammad wrote his mayhem manual...
Explain the behavior of muslims in Sweden. Sweden, my boy, the multi-culti paradise that does NOT support Israel, has NO troops in Iraq, and kisses the posteriors of it's hostile muslim imigrant population. Doubt me? Take a midnight stroll through Malmo, Sweden and find out for yourself.
I bet the jihad in Thailand, Philippines, Kashmir, the Balkans, and numerous other places would disapear if big, bad, all encopasing America would pull out of Messopotamia (Sarcasm)... And I bet the little mo-bots in Eurabia would behave and go secular, too (bigger SARCASM).

Posted by: Armalite at May 29, 2007 9:27 AM

You're a soldier?? Well, I'm a conscience objector, so I can't get technical about that. Anyway, I thought that 'do not shoot allies' was a general rule. A soldier, I'll be damned!! What did you enlist for?

Take care, Gary.

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 9:32 AM

Well, Armalite (nice nick) I think we agree about Iraq. The "global Jihad" has been going on for some time, true. But the problem had already been solved by Charles the Great and at Lepanto later. Muslim countries are weak and poor, there was no need (but oil) of another war. Besides, Saudites are a good friend of the USA, and their views on islam are rather strict... There's more than religion, I'm afraid. But hey, everybody's entitled to believe what he wants to believe.

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 9:46 AM

"Anyway, I thought that 'do not shoot allies' was a general rule."

I see I'm arguing with a mental midget who doesn't comprehend military operations...

How the hell can Soldiers at a check point tell that a speeding car is full of Italians, not jihadiots trying to blow them up if they haven't notified the check point they are approching in advance? Ever hear of the "fog of war"? Do you even know what a liason officer is, prior coordination ring a bell? Do your homework before you put your boot in your mouth...You are PWNED (It's an American thing, you wouldn't understand)

Posted by: Armalite at May 29, 2007 9:48 AM

Gary, you are really fun. But you're right, 'this conversation can serve no purpose anymore'. Take care and try to stay home, USA is a better place than Afghanistan to stay.

As for PWNED... I'm afraid we have videogames in italy too. Can't wait for Starcraft II to be retailed, by the way.

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn

Bye.

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 9:59 AM

"Gary, you are really fun. But you're right, 'this conversation can serve no purpose anymore'."

Jeez,HAL was talking to DAVE in 2001, A Space Oddessy... I can understand you being clueless about how the military operates in war, but damn,get your movies straight...

Posted by: Armalite at May 29, 2007 10:09 AM

"Jeez,HAL was talking to DAVE in 2001, A Space *Oddessy*...

Are you sure it Wasn't "2001 a space

*Odyssey* "?

Are you military too?

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 29, 2007 10:18 AM

An interesting post by Bill Whittle at

http://www.ejectejecteject.com/

regarding a case in game theory called The Prisoner's Dilemma. In a word, "Do unto others as they do unto you" is the most successful strategy. He posits that the same thing - "Tit for Tat" - should work among nations. He also posits that NOT to retaliate is not good-guy-ness, but suicide. Please read, there's some good stuff there.

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at May 29, 2007 12:34 PM

May the bravery of past generations of US soldiers sweep our nation and again become mainstream.

May the wisdom to defend liberty and democracy replace PC-ism and return to forming the bedrock of American society.

And may the grace of the Divine Creator defeat the dark forces of totalitarianism (which are now surging across the globe like a plague) and Deliver Us From Islam!

Posted by: pythagoras at May 29, 2007 12:52 PM

One doesn't need to spell Odyssey to understand military tactics or fight for one's country.

Please, all, let's be mature here. It's awful what happened to the Italian soldier, but friendly fire occurs to Americans too. And probably more often, since the US is involved militarily more often than other countries & we fund 80% or so of NATO countries' military ops. But this should not be discussed on days when we remember our fallen.

This is also not the time to denigrate the current Commander in Chief (Bush), like Carter is doing. Discussing the pros & cons of this war, and the efficacy of the CiC, should be conducted on other days. But not on days when we remember our fallen.

Instead of arguing, let's honor ALL of our fallen military by HONORING THEM. Fly your flag, say a prayer/remembrance, visit their graves, or anything you deem appropriate. APPROPRIATE.

I'm here to give my thanks to all of those who fight for my freedom and the freedom of my brethren throughout the world - those who believe in individual rights, democratic & republican ideals, and the continuance of those practices based on the teachings of Locke, Hume, Smith, Jefferson, et al, and begun by Solon, Cleisthenes, and Ephialtes.

Thank you to all whose blood has been spilled or put at risk and your contribution to the continuance of freedom since the beginning of History. You are not forgotten.

Posted by: Miss_Anthrope at May 29, 2007 1:03 PM

Forgot Pericles.

Posted by: Miss_Anthrope at May 29, 2007 1:06 PM

This fits the thread:

Small Town USA vs Sanctuary City

Posted by: Foehammer at May 29, 2007 1:45 PM

Brux-153 says "Well, Armalite (nice nick) I think we agree about Iraq. The "global Jihad" has been going on for some time, true. But the problem had already been solved by Charles the Great and at Lepanto later." and promptly shows his ignorance. If the problem of Jihad had been solved by Charles Martel in 732 and at the Battle of Lepanto in 1571, then why was Vienna besieged by the Islamists in 1683? The fact is, the problem of Jihad remains unsolved to this day, and will remain so until Islam withers away and dies. And that isn't likely any time soon. If anything, it is Western civilization that is much more likely to wither away and die, becaue Westerners continue to remain as dumb as a hammer as regards Islam. No matter how many terrorist outratges take place or how many innocents get brutally murdered, our dumb leaders - in politics, in the church, our academia etc, still continue to churn out the 'religion of peace' hogwash, when the texts of the koran, sira and hadith, plus 1,400 years of historical evidence makes it obvious to anyone with a mental age greater than two years, that it is a backward, brutal, and misogynistic cult of death and suffering, a murderous and destructive 7th century anachronism that is still committed to destroy everything we love and treasure in the here and now of the 21st century - and it would be so obvious to all of us if only we weren't so blinded by 40 years of political correctness as instigated by a whole army of apologists and multiculturalists. And Hilaire Belloc described Islam so succinctly, mentioned the fact that it almost overwhelmed us in modern times, and showed a devastating prophecy when he wrote the following in his book "The Great Heresies" in 1938:

“It has always seemed to me possible, and even probable, that there would be a resurrection of Islam and that our sons or our grandsons would see the renewal of that tremendous struggle between the Christian culture and what has been for more than a thousand years its greatest opponent.”

“The suggestion that Islam may re-arise sounds fantastic – but this is only because men are always powerfully affected by the immediate past: – one might say that they are blinded by it….”

“But not so very long ago, less than a hundred years before the Declaration of Independence…. Vienna was almost taken and only saved by the Christian army under the command of the King of Poland on a date that ought to be among the most famous in history: September 11th, 1683.” – Hilaire Belloc – The Great Heresies, 1938.

If Hilaire Belloc could see this gathering threat from 70 years ago, why can't our leaders see this today?

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at May 29, 2007 1:56 PM

Brux-153 says "You're a soldier?? Well, I'm a conscience objector, so I can't get technical about that. Anyway, I thought that 'do not shoot allies' was a general rule. A soldier, I'll be damned!! What did you enlist for?

Take care, Gary."

Those sentiments bear the hallmarks of a first rate fool. Now just imagine, if the UK had been populated by 'conscientious objectors' back in 1940. What do you suppose would have happened? Are you intelligent enough to know what would have happened? Seems not. A society of 'conscientious objectors' will fall to the first thug that comes along without firing a shot in anger, and will have its populations wiped out by that very same thug. Fortunately, Britain wasn't a nation of conscientious objectors, and we, along with our US, Soviet and Commonwealth/Empire allies finally defeated the war machines of Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy, and liberated millions of Western Europeans from Nazi oppression, millions more in the Far East from Japanese oppression, and by winning the Cold War, liberated millions more in Eastern Europe. And those liberated from tyranny ironically included the populations of Germany, Japan and Italy as well. You can write the trash you espouse here because of the bravery of the troops of my grandfather's generation, but you don't feel shame. You take what they fought for for, for granted You abuse their sacrifices. Now what if you wake up one day and discover what you take for granted is no longer there, and to go back to life as it used to be, you might well have to take up arms and fight alongside millions of your fellow countrymen? Fat lot of use you'd be to your fellow countrymen as 'a conscientious objector'.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at May 29, 2007 2:37 PM

Brux-153 says "You're a soldier?? Well, I'm a conscience objector, so I can't get technical about that. Anyway, I thought that 'do not shoot allies' was a general rule. A soldier, I'll be damned!! What did you enlist for?

Take care, Gary."

Those sentiments bear the hallmarks of a first rate fool. Now just imagine, if the UK had been populated by 'conscientious objectors' back in 1940. What do you suppose would have happened? Are you intelligent enough to know what would have happened? Seems not. A society of 'conscientious objectors' will fall to the first thug that comes along without firing a shot in anger, and will have its populations wiped out by that very same thug. Fortunately, Britain wasn't a nation of conscientious objectors, and we, along with our US, Soviet and Commonwealth/Empire allies finally defeated the war machines of Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy, and liberated millions of Western Europeans from Nazi oppression, millions more in the Far East from Japanese oppression, and by winning the Cold War, liberated millions more in Eastern Europe. And those liberated from tyranny ironically included the populations of Germany, Japan and Italy as well. You can write the trash you espouse here because of the bravery of the troops of my grandfather's generation, but you don't feel shame. You take what they fought for, for granted You abuse their sacrifices. Now what if you wake up one day and discover what you take for granted is no longer there, and to go back to life as it used to be, you might well have to take up arms and fight alongside millions of your fellow countrymen? Fat lot of use you'd be to your fellow countrymen as 'a conscientious objector'.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at May 29, 2007 2:38 PM

When he was murdered, Theo Van Gogh said, "Can't we talk about this" to the Muslim killing him in the name of God. Some folks will have us talk until we are all dead or subjugated. Thanks, Robert, for your comments.

Robert A. Hall
Cpl, USMC 1964-68
Vietnam, 1967
SSgt, USMCR, 1977-83

Posted by: tartanmarine at May 29, 2007 8:19 PM

Well, spirit of 1683, I think that discussing the causes of WWII would bring us too far.
Anyway.

*MY* grandfather fought Fascism and nazis, I think I owe to him, not to your troops. And grandpa would have liked me to speak the way I do.

When USA invaded Europe, URSS had already defeated the nazis. Stalingrad had already happened.

That was 60 years ago. We repaid that debt.

The fact is, in the '40, USA was a strong democratic power. I'm afraid things have changed. Controversial elections, limitation of civil rights, invasion of foreign countries based on false premises...
Most people in Italy like americans, along with american culture and habits. But lately, this has become harder and harder.

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 30, 2007 5:23 AM

Miss Anthorpe, thanks for this phrase

> It's awful what happened to the Italian soldier

and your're right, let's be mature. Enough trolling, this is the day of your fallen and respect should be paid to those who died in the excercise of their duties.

Bye

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 30, 2007 5:29 AM

Brux-153, you have a pathological hatred of Americans and a love for anything Communist and Islamic. Who liberated your country from Nazi rule? Britain, its Empire and the US - at massive cost, and gave you your freedom - genuine freedom, unlike the Soviets, who merely drove the Nazis out of Eastern Europe and replaced one form of oppression with another. They didn't liberate the people of those countries, because Nazism was followed by 40 years of Communist rule where the people were brutally suppressed. Have you heard of the Prague Spring in 1968 or the Hungarian uprising in 1956? You are nothing more than an ungrateful troll, and without the US and Britain, it is likely that you would still be living under Fascism - or Communism if you were lucky.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at May 30, 2007 12:52 PM

brux-153:

Your information is faulty. If it is becoming harder to like the United States it is because the information being transmitted to you has been processed and slanted against America. America can do nothing right!!!

Please read Bat Yeor's controversial non-fiction work : "EURABIA." She tells it all about the "new" Europe clearly. There is no question that Europeans are being brainwashed and anesthetized as you have been.

I live in America and MY civil rights have NOT been impinged on in any way, shape or form. I have been here over 40 years and have yet to experience

Furthermore, the US's civil rights record is better in 2007 than it was in 1940. Non-whites are no longer deprived of basic rights such as voting on the scale that they had been several generations ago. Many communities have changed laws that systematically discriminated against non-whites and impinged on civil rights.

By the way, I support the patriot Act on the grounds that there is no other way to intercept Islamic terrorists conspiring to massacre American citizens on a massive scale except through stealth. Fire is often nedded to put out fires.

So whatever you think about us, you're light years off the mark and that is what your "Fearless leaders" want.

Posted by: pythagoras at May 30, 2007 4:24 PM

Guys, that was sooooo much time ago. We repaid that debt. It's just like you still owed the french for sending La Fayette to help you against the English...

Have a nice day

Posted by: Brux-153 at May 31, 2007 11:09 AM