Gag.

Posted by: Know Your Enemy at June 4, 2007 2:22 PM

"The actions of a few should not influence perceptions about Islam and Muslims, the majority of whom are peace loving, responsible citizens across the world"

Then, I wonder why jihad is heating up everywhere. It's news everyday of the week. I must not understand what "a few" is.

Posted by: sounder at June 4, 2007 2:27 PM

"Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz on Monday said attempts to equate Islam with terrorism must be rejected, as Islam offers the message of humanity, egalitarianism, moderation, tolerance and coexistence."

I'm more persuaded by what I see in front of my face. Isn't it ironic that the same vehicle which is used to promote jihad throughout our world (the internet) is the same one that provides evidence, day in and day out, that the prime minister is a big fat liar?!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at June 4, 2007 2:36 PM

[]

Don't be affraid......come to our side...step into the light and the peace of Islam. All this talk of Jihad is the making of that evil Bush. They take the true message of Muhammad out of context. Not caring of the sensitivity of gentle Muslim.

[]

That should do it for awhile. ...........stupid kaffir

Posted by: Abrog8 at June 4, 2007 2:36 PM

Can we equate it with Violence against non Muslims? cause there is planty of proof . Can we equate with disgusting human rights violations ( Sharia )it's built right into the faith. can we ....

wait a minute , why can't we Equate it with terrorism when the Prophit and Founder himself was a violent murdering Rapist and sadist who preached domination and submission of all other faiths and preached to kill anyone who resists?

That IS Terrorism.

Posted by: MoBlows at June 4, 2007 2:39 PM

I, for one, am not forgetting the contributions of muslims to the sciences..medicine..physics..rocket trajectory and nuclear plagerism. Why do we in the west have such negative ideas about people who have carried us forward leaps and bounds in the arts? Only 500 million or so troublemakers can ruin the reputation of the remainder..how sad.

Posted by: pismopal at June 4, 2007 2:39 PM

And the remainder is?

a few dozen i'd guess

Posted by: MoBlows at June 4, 2007 2:41 PM

Since the IRA has stopped terrorist attacks, I only know of one non-Muslim group involved in terrorism and that's the Basques and I'm not sure when they last did anything.

The point that this pinhead doesn't get is that Muslims are commiting terrorism all of the world as the have for 1400 years and that we are on to him. Nothing new here in any way.

As Muslims feel they are under attack, I would like to propose that we put fact behind their paranoia. Oh that the Pope would call for a crusade!!!

I saw that once again, Monkeyboy - chief of Iran, is saying that Israel, may God bless them, will be destroyed. I don't think logic or clear thought are parts of the Islamic mind.

Oh well, I'm rambling now.

Peace out and stop Islam.

Karl

Posted by: schwaben at June 4, 2007 2:42 PM

Since the IRA has stopped terrorist attacks, I only know of one non-Muslim group involved in terrorism and that's the Basques and I'm not sure when they last did anything.

The point that this pinhead doesn't get is that Muslims are commiting terrorism all of the world as the have for 1400 years and that we are on to him. Nothing new here in any way.

As Muslims feel they are under attack, I would like to propose that we put fact behind their paranoia. Oh that the Pope would call for a crusade!!!

I saw that once again, Monkeyboy - chief of Iran, is saying that Israel, may God bless them, will be destroyed. I don't think logic or clear thought are parts of the Islamic mind.

Oh well, I'm rambling now.

Peace out and stop Islam.

Karl

Posted by: schwaben at June 4, 2007 2:44 PM

Kinda hard to put the genie back in the bottle, don't you think?

Posted by: Moose at June 4, 2007 2:49 PM

The connection between drinking 20 beers a day and being a lard ass needs to be rejected as well.

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at June 4, 2007 2:54 PM

Islam offers the message of humanity, egalitarianism, moderation, tolerance and coexistence.

Huh?

Posted by: Joe Schmoe USA at June 4, 2007 2:55 PM

Islam offers the message of humanity, egalitarianism, moderation, tolerance and coexistence.

Huh?

Posted by: Joe Schmoe USA at June 4, 2007 2:57 PM

Greattttttttttttt!!!!!!!

Then I guess they're so peacefull and loving that I can walk down the streets of Mecca and wear my big cross outside my shirt.

Only Goobers that have no knowledge of the world or history can believe that.

Posted by: Mekoots at June 4, 2007 3:04 PM

The only "Phobia " in regards to Islam that i see and hear and see and hear is the PHOBIA Islam has against anything not Islamic. if it's so peaceful why is it that Islam is at odds with just about everyone and with each other ? Why is Every Islamic Nation at odds or at war with their neighbours , even other Islamic nations? where is this Brotherhood we keep hearing about? ask the Thai's ask the Insians, ask the Assyrians, ask anyone who does not live in a Democracy and who lives near or next to an Islamic nation just how peaceful and tolerant Islam is.

These people have all the nerve in the world and take no responsibility for any of it.

Posted by: MoBlows at June 4, 2007 3:06 PM

Oh, please. We've read the Koran! Islam offers ONLY Terrorism.

It's incredible these Muslims think we can't read!

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 3:07 PM

Or what? They'll kill us?

Got back to Mecca and peddle your twaddle there.

Posted by: profitsbeard at June 4, 2007 3:09 PM

Oh, please. We've read the Koran! Islam offers ONLY Terrorism.

It's incredible these Muslims think we can't read!

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 3:11 PM

"If they would stop equating Islam and terrorism, non-Muslims would stop making the association also."

What a load of bullsh*t.

We "non-Muslims" make this HIGHLY rational association because Muslims by and large commit 99.9% of all violent acts worldwide. Dumbass with blinders on - how typical. I must also emphasize that they do it in the name of a myth named "Allah".

Faith without proof is childish delusion...excuse me while I cut your head off for tooth fairy!

Posted by: Quantum Infidel at June 4, 2007 3:11 PM

Loved your "Kinda hard to put the genie back in the bottle, don't you think," Moose!

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 3:16 PM

Attack and kill the infadel ware every you find them. Sounds like terrorists to me.

Posted by: Ruebacca at June 4, 2007 3:20 PM

I wish I were the one he was talking to so I could say, "Sorry Chuck, you haven't convinced me that islam is peaceful - by your their own actions, and the readings of the koran, the hadiths and by your prophet mohammed's own words and actions. When muslims stop slaughtering people's around this globe, and when muslims start treating murderers, rapists, torturers and enslavers as 'good, little jihadists' then I will believe you. Until then, I am signing off as a proud Islamophobe!"

Posted by: R_not at June 4, 2007 3:21 PM

Any Muslim who spews this nonesense it NOT moderate! they are an accomplice.

Posted by: MoBlows at June 4, 2007 3:22 PM

darcy, they know that 99.9% of the people usually don't read the koran, the hadiths, etc. That is what they are counting on - the past stupidity of the people they have started infiltrating.

They have the internet and use it as a weapon, but I think of it this way - we have the internet and use it as a tool to spread what we know of islam and its filthy lies.

Posted by: R_not at June 4, 2007 3:24 PM

MoBLows, go check out Hugh Fitzgerald's archive postings and you will find some articles on 'moderate' muslims. Very interesting indeed. It was what I was starting to think about those masses of 'moderates' that do absolutely nothing to stop the radicals within their communities. And the writings by mohammed that tell the ones who don't actively fight, to support the jihadists in other ways - eg: money, food, etc. make sense.

Posted by: R_not at June 4, 2007 3:28 PM

The Paki PM echoes the lies of Big Brother:

"War is Peace." "Freedom is Slavery." "Ignorance is Strength."

Amazing how similar Islam is to "1984."

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 3:31 PM

Right, "R_not." Which is why on Dhimmi message boards I always say, "Read the Koran, why don't you, and see for yourself?"

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 3:34 PM

This seems to be a double-edge sword.

If they would stop equating Islam and terrorism, non-Muslims would stop making the association also.

Any group, even of Jewish or Christian beliefs cannot curtail what the members of that group do. And if a member of a particular group does something despicable, why should the entire group suffer the consequences?

Unfortunately, I think the majority of the minorities are making headlines for the Islamic people, which gives the impression that "all" Muslims or followers of Islam are radicals wanting to kill us, the so-called "infidels".

The logic seems to be missing because if this was the case, then all of us would have been wiped out ages ago, unless the Muslims have not yet figured out how to kill us all.

Paul

Posted by: paul_benheimer at June 4, 2007 3:39 PM

darcy, when I write to the congress people, president, governor, UC president, etc - I plead with them to crack open a (Medina version - the version they read) koran and start finding out that this is a book on battle tactics against us. Do they do what I ask? I have no idea - I can only hope.

Posted by: R_not at June 4, 2007 3:40 PM

As long as muslims say death to infidels, death to israel , death to america, they will always be viewed as terrorists.

Posted by: callmeinfidel at June 4, 2007 3:42 PM

As long as muslims say death to infidels, death to israel , death to america, they will always be viewed as terrorists.

Posted by: callmeinfidel at June 4, 2007 3:43 PM

As long as muslims say death to infidels, death to israel , death to america, they will always be viewed as terrorists.

Posted by: callmeinfidel at June 4, 2007 3:43 PM

Shaukat Aziz,

If you think that only a few extremists are commiting acts of terror, then I have a bridge in Broklyn, NYC to sell you.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 4, 2007 3:49 PM

Some more lie's.
How can anyone take him seriously when his god Allah declares himself a terrorist. Quran 8:12 I shall terrorise the infidel's...yep that's Allah ok.
One of the gods/demons of the lower Qlippoth, a terrorist by heart and actions. His god is a liar, his Prophet a prevaricater, Their book, a book of lie's. Yes indeed, evil in sheep's clothing will mislead many. That's Allah wrapped in Islam.
Spokespersons...like Aziz are telling the truth, but the truth has been contaminated by evil, so in reality, the truth is not in him...

Posted by: duh_swami at June 4, 2007 3:51 PM

paul_benheimer, read some of Hugh's archived articles on 'moderates'.

And they have expanded and then been driven back several times during the past 1400 years. The middle east was full of Christians, pagans, Jews that all lived together rather peacefully until Mohammed came around. Then there was a time when even Mohammed realized that killing all infidels was stupid because he could make them into a class of dhimmi with no rights, to pay high taxes to support the muslims as they wanted to be supported and to be their workforce and donkeys to kick around and kill and abuse.

The current radicalism might have started earlier, but it was in the early 1900s and the muslim brotherhood, along with alliances with the nazis at one point, communists at other points, got a good grip and especially when Saudi Arabia took the leaders in and let them become imams. the Saudis are now helping to spread the radical wahabbi teachings. There are websites that go on about this. I have to go now, but do some searches and you will find that the goal of muslims is to bring sharia law around the world. And it seems that we are in one of those times where muslims are trying to expand. And it starts with a few who look to be very peaceful, and they grow, etc.

Posted by: R_not at June 4, 2007 3:52 PM

I can't believe the temerity of Muslims like Mr. Aziz. Does he think we're all stupid?

These aren't the Little Sisters of the Poor flying planes into buildings, and blowing up people in subways, Mr. Aziz, they're Muslims.

It's Islam, sir! Period.

Posted by: rational at June 4, 2007 4:01 PM

R_not - Is there a Koran available that's only Medina verses?

My paperback Koran is published by Bantam, a division of Random House, Sept. 2004. That "no compulsion in religion" verse is in it so I know it's got both the Meccan and Medinan.

Is there a sole Medinan Koran available? If so, I want to get it.

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 4:02 PM

Islam offers the message of humanity, egalitarianism, moderation, tolerance and coexistence.

Sure it does, to Muslims only, that is. Those dirty rotten kafirs can spin and rot. Pathetic BS.

Posted by: Proud Infidel at June 4, 2007 4:11 PM

Islam suffers from Infidelobia. Allah makes them suffer so.

Posted by: flowerknife_us at June 4, 2007 4:18 PM

OFF TOPIC!!!!

I have a trip to the lake planned at the end of the week. I'm looking for a good book to read. I found Roberts book (TTAM) to be very interesting as well as Mark Steyn(AA). I'll be hitting the current events section at B&N's in the next day or so to pick something up.

Any advice?

Otherwise I'll just take a "STAB" at something related to Islam, Mo, or Jihad.

Posted by: Abrog8 at June 4, 2007 4:22 PM

Hey R_not,

I'll definitely check up on the literatures, but I somehow find it difficult to believe that all Muslims or Islamists or whatever name they have wants to kill us all. I've read some of the verses of the Koran that OBL and the other extremists use, only to find that the verse preceeding or coming after speaks of forgiveness, somewhat contradicting the essence of violence.

I just fail to see why people hate, but to hate for no reason is beyond comprehension.

Does anyone here hate Muslims simply because they are Muslims? I hope not. Likewise, I would think it's horrible if a Muslim is to hate me simply because I'm not a Muslim. I would tend to think that individual is a very strange person, probably a racist too.

Paul

Posted by: paul_benheimer at June 4, 2007 4:31 PM

"I can't believe the temerity of Muslims like Mr. Aziz. Does he think we're all stupid?"

Posted by: rational at June 4, 2007 4:01 PM

Yes they indeed think we are all stupid, or paralyzed, especially our politicians and the muslim liers certainly have enough proof of that I would say, so they continue to play on it. It has worked for 30 years or so.

Posted by: sounder at June 4, 2007 4:33 PM

Hipaul_benheimer:

Aside from the Koran, just listen and watch the message coming from muslims in their own words, like this message:

Dr. Ahmad Bahar (acting Speaker, Palestinian Legislative Council):
"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation Be certain that America is on its way to disappear, America is wallowing [in blood] today in Iraq and Afghanistan, America is defeated and Israel is defeated, and was defeated in Lebanon and Palestine Make us victorious over the infidel people Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one." [PA TV, April 20, 2007]

Leaves little to the imagination, don't you think?

Posted by: sounder at June 4, 2007 4:49 PM

Paul_b;
I suggest you start with the two books I listed above. Reference the Koran on-line. Couple that with often misleading spin on TV current events and you will soon put the picture together.

Keep your mind open and look closely at the MSM. Then use the Internet to find the story presented with a less PC spin.

I can predict your conclusion. As can most JW'rs.

Posted by: Abrog8 at June 4, 2007 4:52 PM

Pakistan:

Another ex-Gitmo Jihad-freak involved in attack on rival clan, but the same editorial also admits that radical Islam cannot be separated from Islam scriptures:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/06/04/pakistan-daily-admits-that-radical-islam-is-supported-by-islamic-scriptures/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at June 4, 2007 4:53 PM

People, I just came across on Amazon what looks like a fab book called, "Moon-o-theism: Religion of a War and Moon God Prophet," by Yoel Natan (2006). Paperback Volumes 1 & 2, $58.56, which I ordered.

"Moon-o-theism" LOL! You gotta love the title!

Yoel Natan is a Jewish Writer and Blogger, and he's for real. Know how I know? Because if you go to his BlogSpot - yoelnatanbooks.blogspot.com - you will see links to both JW and DW!

Thesis of books: Allah was a pre-Islamic South Arabian war-god and moon-god. Why? Because the "Prophet" was a war-and-moon-god-worshipper.

I'm always interested in this particular subject so I'm very excited about these books.

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 4:54 PM

Pelayo sez: Attempts to equate Islam with a religion of peace must be rejected.

Posted by: Pelayo at June 4, 2007 5:04 PM

LONDON, Jun 4 (APP): Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz on Monday said attempts to equate Islam with terrorism must be rejected, as Islam offers the message of humanity, egalitarianism, moderation, tolerance and coexistence.

The problem with the prime mininster's assertion, is that prominent islamic clerics (who influence jihaddists) assert that the message of humanity, egalitarianism, moderation, tolerance, and coexistence is applies only for relationships between other muslims. The prime minister's assertion is no more than a matter of Kithman - a where muslims are encouraged to willfully deceive others about their faith.

Posted by: Triphammer at June 4, 2007 5:04 PM

It's the islamic No-Spin-Zone!!

NOT!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at June 4, 2007 5:08 PM

With all the Islamic violence in the world today, just who should we associate with it?....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at June 4, 2007 5:25 PM

"Pakistani PM: Attempts to equate Islam with terrorism must be rejected"

LYING -- one of Islam's hallmarks. I would rather stick to the Truth.

Posted by: champ at June 4, 2007 5:28 PM

Oops, too late.
Humanity, egalitarianism, moderation, tolerance and coexistence. Oh, and Sharia law...

Posted by: eloivsdiablo at June 4, 2007 5:58 PM

Just by reading the comments posted on this website, it's hard to believe that you people actually have the nerve to call yourselves "Human Beings." I've never seen so much hate and prejudice before on the web.

You accuse Islam - my way of Life - of being a terrorist religion, but the Truth is, your hearts are filled with so much hate and prejudice that you WANT to hate Muslims. If any of you were to meet a Muslim, would you be able to tell them how you feel about Islam face to face? It's as if you hide behind the internet because you KNOW that your opinions would never be accepted by a sane society.

You say things like "Stop Islam" and that Muslims always lie, therefore they can't be trusted - I mean, seriously, what are you people trying to accomplish here? Just ask this question to yourself. Are you suggesting genocide? Do you want to place Muslims in concentration camps?

Islam is growing in the United States. My Mosque will soon be expanded into one of the largest Mosques and Islamic centers in the United States. I welcome all of you to visit our schools and places of worship and I encourage all of you to read Reza Aslan's book "No god but God". Greet a Muslim in public, attend an inter-faith event, attend a Muslim Student Association meeting - we're here, we're a part of the west too, and a lot of us have been helping the west understand us better.

You need to understand the difference between politics and religion. Muslms are the Abrahamic brotehrs and sisters of the Christians and Jews, and we're all Created by GOD. You cannot associate terrorism with Islam because the majority of Muslims are taught to Love and respect people of all faiths. My mother taught me this and raised me and my brother this way. There is antagonism towards the Israelis and American soldiers because the Palestinians have been oppressed and the Iraqis have been invaded, respectively. How can you expect someone NOT to fight back when the boot of oppression is stomped on his neck? The Palestinians were evicted from their homes and the Israeli occupation still continues to kill unjustly. I have Arab Christian friends who are even against what the Israeli occupation does as well as the war in Iraq. Just because a person doesn't support the war doesn't make him a terrorist or a traitor. You need to wipe that mentality out of your minds and you need to work towards understanding.

[2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the Sabians; anyone who believes in GOD, and believes in the Last Day, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

[17:70] “And verily We have bestowed honor on the children of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favors, above a great part of Our creation."

[29:46] “And argue not with the People of the Book except in a way that is best, unless it be with those of them who do wrong, but say: ‘We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we submit."

May Allah bless you all (don't forget that Arabic speaking Christians also say the word "Allah", there's proof of this in the Arabic bible, so its important to keep this in mind when some of you slander the Beautiful name of Allah)

~JehanZeb~

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 4, 2007 6:04 PM

"LYING -- one of Islam's hallmarks. I would rather stick to the Truth."

If you want to stick to the Truth, then you shouldn't make false accusations of people, especially when you haven't even spoken to someone who follows the religion.

If you want to learn about Islam, then talk to people who truly follow it, not someone who slanders it.

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 4, 2007 6:07 PM

Lets post the 164 jihad verses for JehanZeb.

Lets post some of the uncounted hatespeeches by the fuming Islamic clerics who want to wipe out infidels and Jooozzz.

Lets post some of the beheading, suicide bomers and children indoctrination video's for jeahnzeb.

Then we can talk hatred.

Buy yourself a camel and discover the desert, you troll!

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at June 4, 2007 6:14 PM

Just those few extremists mis-understanding the love and peace of Islam -- but isn't it interesting that ALL OVER THE WORLD there are so many tiny groups of extremists who "misunderstand" Islam EXACTLY THE SAME WAY: "Kill the Unbelievers" "Death to the Infidels" "Smite them on the neck" ?

Wow, what an amazing coincidence!!!! or else, by Occam's Razor, it's no coincidence at all.

Aziz wants "acceptable phraseology that accurately captures the phenomena and does not single out any particular creed or community"? It's not possible. The "particular creed and community" are at the heart of terrorism as it now exists around the world. Undoubtedly, as terrorism proves successful, extremists of other flavors will copy these tactics, but for now the whole phenomenon belongs to Islam whether Aziz likes it or not.

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at June 4, 2007 6:17 PM

Prime Minister Aziz said terrorism has no religion, colour, race or country. "We should reject stigmatization and combat the increased phenomena of Islamophobia".

...which exists all of and by itself in a vacuum.. as figment of the eternally 'racist' Western mind.

He said efforts to link terrorism with Islam reveal "ignorance or sinister motives and these attempts must be thwarted".

...and what if we REFUSE the "thwarting"? YOU do NOT come into OUR countries and open up yer big fat moslem YAP, bitch! WE are sending you billions and you have the nerve to give these kind of speeches??!!

Pakistan is the toilet of the world.. the absolute sewer of humanity.

VAmoose buddy!

Prime Minister Aziz, stressing the importance of avoiding intellectual flawed characterizations, said, "terms like Islamists, terrorism, Islamic militants, Jehadist ideology and Jehadists are wrong and insensitive".

HAHA! *insensitive*!! Bombing thousands of people and beheading hundreds more.. and setting them on fire.. THAT is *not* insensitive?

They are HURT by our words while they use sticks and stones. Yet we aren't supposed to have the gall to call the baby by its real name!!!

PUCK FIGSLAM!!!!!

Posted by: Allahfanculo at June 4, 2007 6:19 PM

Jehanzeb:

Islam is most certainly NOT a peaceful religion.

It's violent! It's malevolent!

How do I know?

I tried being a Muslim. I read the Quran and I was horrified. I copied down lots of passages.

Check these out, Jehanzeb:

Allah wished to confirm the truth by His words: "Wipe the infidels out to the last."
--- Koran 8:7
I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and Mohammed.
--- Koran 8:12
And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for disbelief is worse than slaughter.
--- Koran 2:191
Truly, if the disbelievers stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.
--- Koran 33:60
Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.
--- Koran 9:5
Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.
--- Koran 8:39
If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.
--- Koran 8:57
The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and Mohammed and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful.
--- Koran 5:33
Believers, obey Allah, and obey Mohammed. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace.
--- Koran 47:33
Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is Mohammed.
--- Koran 9:3

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at June 4, 2007 6:23 PM

Sheik,

Your statements are filled with prejudice and hate. Look at my post and compare it with yours. Where do you see me making personal attacks?

Why do you think beheadings and suicide bombings take place? Those people are being invaded and just like American soldiers kill innocent civilians, so do the Iraqis. That's what a war is, isn't it? There are causalties on both sides. War also promotes separation and prejudice, which your comments provide a perfect example of.

"Buy yourself a camel and discover the desert, you troll" ??

Umm.... okay, so if I'm Muslim, that must associate me with camels and the desert, right? What religion do you practice sheik? Are you of the Abrahamic tradition where all the Prophets lived in the desert and rode on camels and donkeys? Not to mention, they spoke a Middle-Eastern language.

What verses are you talking about? The Qur'an is a message of peace and tolernace, and the message Muhammad received is the same message that was sent to other Prophets before him. If the Qur'an was so hateful, then you wouldn't have so many Muslims in the world right now. Just because someone believes in something that you don't, doesn't mean that they should be hated.

The real terror is in your heart, my friend.

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 4, 2007 6:24 PM

Just because someone believes in something that you don't, doesn't mean that they should be hated.

JehanZeb, this could be said about the radical muslims of the world that keep spouting hatred towards Israel and the west. You also said that religion and politics must be separated. The fact is, that muslims the world over are trying to assert sharia into the political systems. And the hatred for America was manifested looong before we invaded Iraq. The most recent spat with the shiite's started in 1979 when the embassy was invaded by the iranians.

So even though your mother did a good job of raising you in the peaceful aspects of islam, does not make islam a religion of peace and harmony.

Posted by: walterc at June 4, 2007 6:33 PM

JehanZeb:
"Just by reading the comments posted on this website, it's hard to believe that you people actually have the nerve to call yourselves "Human Beings." "

sounds like a personal attack to me,but all bullshit aside,what planet are you on dude? You think we dont see the hate in Islam,the way it has spread itself accross the world by 2 vehicles # 1 The sword # 2 deceit,there is no love and brotherhood with a religeon that murders murders murders effin murders ,show me different you cult zombie I chalenge you to show me different! until then like another poster said get a camel and discover the desert.

Posted by: tscipio at June 4, 2007 6:36 PM

Rabid Dogs

There was a time when dogs ruled the earth. Then, a strain of rabies started infecting the earth’s population, seemingly in a localized area and then spreading outward. Infected dogs began to attack and kill other dogs, innocent dogs, just going about their lives. You really couldn't tell the infected dogs from the normal dogs until they attacked.

The Intelligentsia Dogs rung their paws and wondered how these dogs had become rabidalized. They claimed only a small minority of dogs in the region was infected. Besides, they could not think of any way to stop the dog attacks.

The Governmental Dogs acted swiftly to declare war on rabid dog attacks but decided that dogs from the localized area were due no more scrutiny than dogs from areas that had low or no infection rates. This was to prove that the government would be fair and even handed with all dogs, so that no dog would feel threatened or persecuted.

The News Dogs assailed the general population with stories of uninfected dog’s improper attacks on rabid dogs, treatment of captured infected dogs and the death rate of the dog warriors fighting the rabid dogs. They also thought it great sport to give secrets away about the battle against the rabid dogs.

The Military Dogs determined that the battle against the rabid dogs must be carefully waged so that no innocent dogs would be injured or killed. Paw to paw combat was determined to be the proper way to wage war, assuming the rabid dogs would fight fair and not hide behind their bitches and pups.

The Average Citizen Dog was confused by all this-haven't we had outbreaks of rabid dogs in the past? Since there was no cure for rabies, past wars required the virtual annihilation of all the dogs and their families. Why are the uninfected dogs so blasé about mixing with dogs from infected areas? It would seem prudent to approach all dogs from the infected area as rabid. After all, you really can't tell if a dog is rabid until he attacks, can you?

Posted by: fightforfreedom at June 4, 2007 6:38 PM

JehanZeb,

Did you see the verses posted by Ynkedoodl2? They are from the Quran, and definitely do not preach anything resembling peace and tolerance, unless "peace & tolerance" mean something else in the Islamic world.

There are, as sheik pointed out some 164 jihad verses in there, and you have quoted 4 peaceful ones. I bet they were revealed early in Muhammad's career, and have probably be abrogated.

I think the best we can say about the Qur'an is that it's schizophrenic, preaching peace a couple of times, but then hate over and over. It's a fact those verses are in there. How do you explain them?

Where do these terrorists get the idea to behead people, even peaceful Buddhist schoolgirls and old shop keepers? Were they soldiers in a war? Did they invade any body else's country? How do you explain that?

Posted by: Mo Foe at June 4, 2007 6:38 PM

~JehanZeb~

First of all, you don't know whether or not I've ever spoken to someone who "follows the religion"; and secondly, I HAVE spoken to Muslim men who follow this religion, so I DO know what I am talking about.

FYI -- my husband and I owned a company that we sold about 8 months ago, and some of our ex-customers are Muslim.

Anyway, we asked two of our Muslim customers what they talk about in the Mosques. We said, "What do they say about America during these meetings?" And the Muslim laughed and said, "Oh, you don't want to know."

So we asked him what they say about Israel and the Jews, and we got the same answer, "You don't want to know!"

Very telling!!

So don't lecture me on who I know and who I don't know; and even if I had never had this converstion with a PRACTICING Muslim, the truth about how evil Islam is, is told everyday on the news by their acts of terrorism and threats of destruction to Israel/America.

And why are you addressing my comment? Why aren't you instead supporting this fight against terrorism and addressing these glaring crimes done in the name of allah, done by your so-called "peaceful" religion.

Take your apologetics for Islam elsewhere.

Posted by: champ at June 4, 2007 6:38 PM

Jehan,

you kidding or what? you have muslim heads of state calling for whole peoples to be wiped out. You have mass demonstrations calling for the death of entire countries. I'm sorry, I just don't see your point about the ROP thing. Just because there are many muslims doesn't mean it is because it's peaceful...just no one can leave it without fear of their head being removed. Do you think this site would exist if it weren't for the attrocities we see and hear around the globe. Just look at the earth from space and see where all the (larger) conflicts are occuring and you will notice that most involve muslims. why is that? is everyone oppressing muslims or is it just easier to condone the violence in the name of retribution? As for Iraq, well not much to say there if you think the US intentionally kills civilians and children and you don't see what your brothers in peace are doing daily. I have to laugh...what exactly is it about islam that makes you all so blind to the evil it produces? I just don't see how you could possbily be a muslim and try to defend the filth that is mohammed (pissbeuponhim of course).

Posted by: PissBeUponHim at June 4, 2007 6:42 PM

So Muslim crap doesn't stink. Tell it to the Buddhist teachers being murdered in Thailand.

Islam has a toxic side to its narrative and this is denied to such an extent that it is my position that Muslims for some reason are unable to engage in meaningful self criticism or reflection. This makes their cultures very dangerous and very reactive. It is like a person who thinks they can do no wrong. Jesus said that those who say that they do not sin, the truth is not in them.

While most Muslims are good people (most people are good when there is not a crisis) there appears to be a violent reactivity within Islamic culture that is unique.

Posted by: James Martel at June 4, 2007 6:44 PM

All Moslems are not terrorists, but all terrorists are Moslem.

Posted by: David England at June 4, 2007 6:50 PM

Jehab,

by the way, if you think this site is filled with hate, note the civil responses you are getting to try to reason with you. do yourself a favor and go on aljazeera and pretend your an infidel and see what responses you get. not a coherent response in the bunch; just the typical islamic hate. like someone else said above, try and sell the bloggers on aljazeera the whole ROP thing by "addressing these glaring crimes done in the name of allah". hey, you might actually see the light (truth)!

Posted by: PissBeUponHim at June 4, 2007 6:53 PM

Ynkedoodl2,

Peace to you. You said the following:

"Islam is most certainly NOT a peaceful religion. It's violent! It's malevolent!"

First of all, calm down. Remember that by saying this, you are not only making a judgement about a religion, but about an entire group of people. Do you think I'm a violent and malevolent person?

Those verses are horribly translated. And the Qur'an is not a book where you can simply pluck out verses and understand what they mean, because you need to read it in its ENTIRETY, which very few people actually do (especially the critics).

For example, Chapter 8:7 should be read in its fullness (including verses 8,9, and 10):

"Remember how God promised you (believers) that one of the two enemy groups would fall to you: you wanted the unarmed group to be yours, but it was God's will to establish the truth according to His word and to finish off the disbelievers to prove Truth to be true, and the false to be false, much as the guilty might dislike it. WHen you begged your Lord for help, He answered you, 'I will reinforce you with a thousand angels in succession.' God made this a message of Hope to reassure your hearts: Help comes only from God. He is Mighty and Wise."

These verses aren't directed to Christians, Jews, or anyone who disbelieves in God, this is directed towards the QURAYSH, the pagan Arabs who were PERSECUTING, EXECUTING, AND TORTURING the early Muslims. And this was before the Battle of Badr, when the Muslims had to defend themselves against the Quraysh.

I cannot believe you quote only a few lines of chapter 8, verse 39. Don't forget the verse after it either. Here is the CORRECT translation (I hope everyone is reading this, so that they know you're not citing the Qur'an correctly):

"Believers, fight them until there is no more persecution and all worsihp is devoted to God alone: if they desist, then God sees all that they do, but if they pay no heed, be sure that God is your protector, the best protector, and the best helper."

Where do you see death and murder in that verse now? Again, these were verses sent down to Muhammad, peace be upon him, during the time of battle. When the Muslims had prisoners, they were set free! No one was to kill unjustly.. as said in the Qur'an, anyone who kills an innocent being is like he has kiled ALL of humanity.

Here is the CORRECT translation for 47:33:

"Believers, obey God and the Messenger: do not let your deeds go to waste"

Umm, where do you get "become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace"?

This is how you cited Chapter 9, verse 3: "Allah is not bound by any contract or treaty with non-Muslims, nor is Mohammed.
--- Koran 9:3"

LIE

Correct translation:

"On the Day of the Great Pilgrimage, there will be a proclamation from God and His Messenger to all people: 'God and His Messenger are released from treaty obligations to the idolaters." Qur'an 9:3.

All the war quotes you cite are directed towards the Quraysh during a time of battle, and if you read ANY of those chapters, you will find God always promising MERCY and FORGIVENESS to anyone who incites peace or turns to Him.

You forgot to mention that.

I'm sure that if you have Muslim friends, they would be able to help you understand it better. If you're still interested in learning more, purchase a copy of M.A.S Abdel Haleem's translation of the Qur'an.

Peace

~JehanZeb~

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 4, 2007 6:56 PM

"If the Qur'an was so hateful, then you wouldn't have so many Muslims in the world right now."

huh?

Posted by: Moose at June 4, 2007 6:57 PM

~JehanZeb~

You many want to read why other Muslims have decided to leave Islam. Check out this website written BY Muslims -- FOR Muslims: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

Posted by: champ at June 4, 2007 7:00 PM

JehanZeb,

The ultimate reply still is,

WE WILL STOP CONNECTING ISLAM AND TERRORISM, IF MUSLIMS STOP COMMITTING TERRORISM!

Simple. If all Muslims practiced what you preached, we would have no problem.

But they don't...

(And the verse about killing all humanity, look at the previous verse; it only applies to the children of Israel. That is, Jews! We wouldn't want you to quote out of context!)

Posted by: Mo Foe at June 4, 2007 7:02 PM

Can you believe this Jehan Zeb? Sorry, but you got things twisted Mr. Muzlim - You and your kind are the haters.

BTW, you worship a pagan Moon god. There is no "Allah," there's only "allah," a limestone figure. Muhammed duped you.

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 7:04 PM

Tscipio,

"Show me different you cult zombie I chalenge you to show me different! until then like another poster said get a camel and discover the desert."

Cult zombie?

Making such insults says a lot about your character, so I'll let that be on you.

As for showing you different. Go to the book store, buy the Holy Qur'an translated by M.A.S Abdel Haleem, read Reza Aslan's "No god but God," buy any book on Jalaluddin Rumi - the 13th Century Muslim and Persian poet, and if its barnes and noble, purchase a CD by "Niyaz" - composed and sung by Azam Ali, a female Iranian singer who sings beautiful Islamic poems and also travels around the U.S. with her band, even performing in suburban areas where there hardly is a single ethnic person. You can visit a Mosque and talk to Muslims and even an Imam. You can visit my blog and if you REALLY want me to show you different, contact me via e-mail and I will send you my short film about Muslims in America, which I wrote and directed last semester.

Peace,

~JehanZeb~

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 4, 2007 7:06 PM

The reason there are "so many Muslims in the world right now" is because you Muslim male misogynists have treated your women and girls like baby factories and nothing more for many centuries now. After all, Muhammed said it was a woman's "job" to "manufacture men." Voila - so you breed like rabbits, which is nothing to be proud of. No offense to rabbits.

The Qur'an is a hate/war/violence manual. We've all read the Koran, here. You're not fooling anyone. So, take your "taqiyya" and go and worship your "moon-o-theism."

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 7:12 PM

Who would be the greater misunderstanders of islam zehanzeb, the people making comments on this site or the people killing in the name of your allah?

Posted by: Moose at June 4, 2007 7:17 PM

Champ,

"...we asked two of our Muslim customers what they talk about in the Mosques. We said, "What do they say about America during these meetings?" And the Muslim laughed and said, "Oh, you don't want to know."

What? That's absurd. Just because two Muslim customers say "Oh you don't want to know" means that all Muslims preach hatred towards America and Jews? Why don't YOU go to a Mosque for yourself and find out. In all the Mosques I've been to, I've NEVER heard anything hateful said against Americans or Jews!

"...even if I had never had this converstion with a PRACTICING Muslim, the truth about how evil Islam is, is told everyday on the news by their acts of terrorism and threats of destruction to Israel/America."

Do you believe everything you see on the news? You allow the media to spoon feed you information? If you're going to listen to a biased media source, then why not give a book about Muslim Americans a chance? Try reading anything by Karen Armstrong or Reza Aslan.

Why should I side with you and "support this fight against terrorism" as you say, when people like YOU have no respect for my religion. I AM against terrorism and I am also against prejudice and racism, and your comments represent the anti-Islamic sentiment that exists in the west.

The truth is, if you met me and my family and my loved ones, we would have no problem establishing an understanding because we are human beings. It is very childish to hate someone just because of what they believe, that's like a bully picking on someone just to boost his self-esteem. But yes, the Truth is that we would be friends and have a very respectful conversation. Even when I disagree with some people who are very pro-war, there is no hatred, there is at least respect for each other. We still invite them over on the holidays and we still share spiritual beliefs.

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 4, 2007 7:18 PM

As long as Azam Ali wears the niqab, she'll be able to keep her head...

(http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016738.php#comments)

But didn't Muhammad hate music?

Posted by: Mo Foe at June 4, 2007 7:20 PM

Yes, there's only one God - the Judeo-Christian God and His Son Jesus Christ. They are one and the same.

No, Jesus is not a "slave" to allah because there is no allah. Yes, Jesus was crucified. Yes, there's the Holy Trinity. No, Jesus will not be returning to assist allah in destroying Judaism and Christianity because, again, there is no allah. You're an idol worshipper, Zeb.

Muhammed is a false prophet, just as Jesus warned us in Matthew. Christ died for his religion, Muhammed murdered for his.

You quoted abrogated Meccan verses.

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 7:27 PM

JehanZeb,

As for showing us different, how about showing us:

-a mainstream Islamic organization that has declared Osama to be not a Muslim?

-the polls where no Muslims said suicide bombings are justified?

-the programs to condemn jihadist teachings in the mosques?

-the defense of freedom of conscience, freedom of speech and thought?

-freedom and equality for women?

-the secret history of Muhammad where he WASN'T a warlod, DIDN'T have his enemies assassinated, and DIDN'T marry a 6-year old?

I'm sorry, but your student films, and some Islamic music doesn't change the fact that all schools of Islamic jurisprudence mandate warfare against unbelievers until Islam reigns supreme.

Posted by: Mo Foe at June 4, 2007 7:27 PM

Darcy

"The reason there are "so many Muslims in the world right now" is because you Muslim male misogynists have treated your women and girls like baby factories and nothing more for many centuries now. After all, Muhammed said it was a woman's "job" to "manufacture men." Voila - so you breed like rabbits, which is nothing to be proud of. No offense to rabbits."

Wow, it's so disturbing how ignorant and prejudice you are. If there is one thing that offends me the most, its the stereotype of us treating our women like "slaves". The majority of people who convert to Islam are WOMEN - why? To be oppressed? No, because Islam is a beautiful religion where women are respected, Loved, and given equal rights. The only "Muslims" you know of is from the TV - you probably never met a Muslim before or read any Islamic literature, because if you did, you would know that we are one of the most Romantic people in the world - Read Jalaluddin Rumi or any Muslim poets' work. Have you read Layla and Majnun?? One of the Beautiful Love stories ever written. Have you ever listened to Islamic music? The next time you see a woman wearing hijaab, I challenge you to talk to her and ask her if she's oppressed. I'm so glad that I made a Muslim Romance film, because it showed many non-Muslims that WE also have Love stories, ambitions, and goals in life.

Here is the link regarding my film:

http://mastqalander.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!1A088E1756D8FFEA!1228.entry

Don't insult Muslim women because one day, GOD WILLING, you will have a doctor who is a Muslim woman. Then what will you do? The stereotypes will be shattered. You must have never been in Love before, that is probably why you're so prejudice and hateful. How dare you say that all Muslim women are for is to reproduce, when the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, taught us to LOVE and CARE for our women. Muhammad once scolded a man for praying in the Mosque instead of spending time with his wife! Muhammad said that the men and women are twin halves for one another. Every human being, even YOU with your cold heart, has a TWIN HALF, a SOUL MATE, a LIFE PARTNER. Every man has an Eve and every woman has an Adam. Man and woman were created for one another.

I pity you because you will never know what Love is, Darcy. You hate a group of people, you are prejudice, you are ignorant, and you are brainwashed. May God shine His Love upon you and show you the way to Truth and Compassion. Ameen.

~JehanZeb~

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 4, 2007 7:31 PM

JehanZeb,
ok from my perspective being a member of a gigantic lie that fosters hate laziness, schizofrenia,denial,bloodlust etc.. says alot about your character,but I will let that one go its your choice,and I also think that you interpret the Koran the way you would like to see it, but unfortunately the terrorists see the Koran very differently than the rosy picture you paint above,after all they use it as their justification to commit attrocities far worse than they blame on America specificaly and the west generaly.How about those cartoon riots?proportional response? dont think so ok how about the pope speech quoting the byzantine emperor? proportional? nun murdered in Somalia,Christians in Iraq murdered in response proportional? I think NOT.Open your eyes man you have been decieved,beheadings and stonings and suicide bombing,I only seek to show you the truth I dont hate you I hate the religon that is responseable for most of the suffering in the world today and I pity the fools who have been duped by it.I dont need to go to a mosque or meet anymore muslims than I already have in order to form a free rational conclusion that islam is a stain on humanity and its adherents need to OPEN their eyes before they do something they cant take back and push us all over the ediface into the great frikin abyss

Posted by: tscipio at June 4, 2007 7:31 PM

No, we don't have "respect" for your religion and we don't have to! Respect is not a given - you have to EARN it. And Islam earns ZERO respect in this world due to your constant murdering of others' of different faiths and also the way you treat females - honor killings, stonings, mutilating their genitals, marrying them at puberty to old men, polygamy, constant pregnancy, throwing acid on them, raping them and due to barbaric, evil, Shariah Law the females have no recourse to justice. Then you kill 'em for being raped because now the family is "tainted." You are a sick, inhumane, inhuman people.

Barbarians. All of you.

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 7:35 PM

You accuse Islam - my way of Life - of being a terrorist religion, but the Truth is, your hearts are filled with so much hate and prejudice that you WANT to hate Muslims

Have you seen the pictures of our soldiers that were kidnapped then tortured and killed? I did. What kind of human being drills the eyes out of a man then beheads him? What kind of a human can stomach that?
I am convinced that islam is the religion of Satan,
~JehanZeb~. That is not Robert Spencer saying that, it is me. "You will know the tree by the fruit it produces". Where in the world is islam at peace with it's neighbors? Even in Gaza, moslems are fighting each other.
I didn't want to hate anyone, but when I read the islamic texts and saw that I am the "worst of creation", and my arms and legs are to be hacked off on opposite sides, I must say I can muster up a little hatred for that "religion".

Posted by: interestinconundrum at June 4, 2007 7:36 PM

I'm sure that if you have Muslim friends, they would be able to help you understand it better. If you're still interested in learning more, purchase a copy of M.A.S Abdel Haleem's translation of the Qur'an.

Help us understand better???
Better what?
Better beheading of christian or buddhist children?
Better blowing up jewish school buses?
Better stoning and limb amputation?
Better bombing of trains and flying airplains full of innocent people into buildings?
Better gang raping of Swedish and Danish women?

What in the world are you blabbering about you slimy taqyiyah juggler?
Are you so dumb that you think reading your cursed, filled with hatred, primitive "how to zombify yourself" instruction book will somehow zombify an average normal westerner? Or Hindu, or Jew, or a Buddhist?

Are you nuts?

WE HATE ISLAM!
Not because it is spelled I s l a m, or because we love hating, but BECAUSE IT KILLS US!!

Posted by: thomas. h at June 4, 2007 7:38 PM

JehanZeb,

I have to give you credit, because you seem to be a gentle, romantic soul.

But, if you think Islam is the religious of peace and tolerance, why are you here, instead of telling off the jihadists, who so misunderstand your beautiful religion?

Why aren't you more mad at them, for perverting what you obviously love?

Posted by: Mo Foe at June 4, 2007 7:38 PM

~JehanZeb~

Darcy brought up an excellent point, and I want to elaborate on it a little more. She said, "You quoted abrogated Meccan verses."

I'm posting a prior comment of mine to further her point:

"Muhammad's life can be divided into two parts -- the tolerant years in Mecca and the aggressive years in Medina. The Qur'an reflects those two parts, and that is why at times someone will point out a teaching in the Qur'an that seems to indicate that Islam teaches its adherents to live at peace with their enemies.

When Muhammad began to preach his revelations from Allah to the people, he believed that a peaceful religion was a good strategy for attracting people, especially the Jewish people, to the teachings of Islam.

When Muhammad saw that his attempts to win over the Jews through peaceful coexistence were not successful, he "launched a new strategy, a strategy based on power. This is when he declared jihad (holy war) and went out to convert nonbelievers to Islam by the sword."

Muslims today are taught to interrupt the Qur'an through a principle of progressive revelation known as 'nasikh'. Any contradiction in the Qur'an is solved by using the newest revelation. If anyone denies the continuing revelation of Allah to Muhammad, they are denying Islam itself."

In my estimation, JehanZeb, you may want to ask yourself if YOU are following true Islam, because according to the above information I have gathered and then put before you, you are NOT following it correctly. You may be following your own version/brand of Islam.

The Islam of yester-year.

Posted by: champ at June 4, 2007 7:41 PM

You've got to be kidding! My God you're delusional!

Yeah, females are just treated so wonderfully in Islam!

You don't have a leg to stand on, Zeb.

It disturbs me to see how ignorant and delusional you are!

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 7:43 PM

JehanZeb,
dont you see the difference when say a hostage beheading is commited by a very pios religon of peace member,and you barely hear a whisper in the news forget about riots that just doesnt happen in response,but if someone dares question the motives of islam instead of a rational argument all you get in return is murder or at the very least doublespeak about how they werent true muslims.Forget about how you were brought up what about the children being indoctrinated to think killing jews or christians will get the a free ticket to paradise complete with 72 virgins?It is happening and why dont the supposed peacefull muslims act against their supposed misguided coreligonalists?if you respond to 1 thing make it that question why dont the majority of peacefull muslims speak out against the jihad with half the determination as they have when they chant death to America?I am looking foward to your response

Posted by: tscipio at June 4, 2007 7:43 PM

Look at the ad hominem insults flying from the "religion of peace."

No, you got things twisted. You will never know love, Zeb, you have a cold heart, I pity you, you are ignorant and 100% brainwashed and delusional.

How 'bout those honor killings, eh? Such love!

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 7:46 PM

Tscipio,

It's sad to read how ignorant you are. I quoted the Qur'an as it IS, not how I see it. If you talk to Christians or Jews who are anti-war, then what are you going to make of them? Are you going to say they're "lost" or "they need to open their eyes"?

If I supported the war and was still a Muslim, you would still hate me because you hate my religion. You say you don't hate me, but you are saying you hate my religion. How can you not hate me when I constantly strive to be a good Muslim? I don't want you to hate me and I don't want you to hate my religion. I would like for you to understand that just because there is injustice committed in the Muslim world doesn't mean that all Muslims are like that or that the religion itself preaches that.

Cartoon riots? Here's a link to my blog where I discussed that:

http://mastqalander.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!1A088E1756D8FFEA!1052.entry

Are the deaths of innocent Palestinians and Iraqis and Aghanis representative of your faith? Or what about the bombing in Oklahoma? Or the Virginia Tech shootings, or the shooting at the Amish school a year ago? Do they represent you? Do they represent America? No, of course not. So beheadings, suicide bombing, and the murder of American soldiers is not representive of me nor of Islam.

In elementary school, we are taught to never judge people by the color of their skin or their religion, and look at what you people are doing. When you have children, do you want to teach them hate and intolerance towards Muslims or my Muslim children, if God wills I have them? Put yourself in a Muslim American's shoes, there is so much hate and bigotry towards not just Muslim Americans but Middle-Eastern and South Asian Americans who are not even Muslim! I did not imagine the racist treatment I've experienced. I did not imagine my Mosque being vandilized or someone spewing racial slurs at me and those I Love.

So instead of promoting hatred for a people, we need to stand united as human beings. Go to an inter-faith event or a world unity festival. Trust me, you will love it and you will learn more about yourself and the beaty of being a human being.

I'm signing off for now. Take care everyone.

Salaam
(it means Peace)

~JehanZeb~

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 4, 2007 7:48 PM

Wow, it's so disturbing how ignorant and prejudice you are. If there is one thing that offends me the most, its the stereotype of us treating our women like "slaves". The majority of people who convert to Islam are WOMEN - why? To be oppressed? No, because Islam is a beautiful religion where women are respected, Loved, and given equal rights.

That just makes me want to scream.
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/beating/beatingwomen.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/beating/beaten.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/hanging/hang4.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/stoning/stoning2.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/hijab/neqabi.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/beslan/beslan12.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/beslan/beslan13.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/beslan/beslan4.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/beslan/beslan5.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/beslan/beslan7.jpg.html
http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/gallery2/v/ffi_gallery/beslan/beslan2.jpg.html

Posted by: interestinconundrum at June 4, 2007 7:54 PM

"In the West the entire "religion of peace" industry depends on people NOT having read the Koran and not being acquainted with the life of Muhammed and the rulings of Islamic Shariah Law." - Robert Spencer

How true, How true.

Hateful, insulting, delusional, idol-worshipping, Mohammedan Zeb.

How 'bout those honor killings? Such love!

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 7:55 PM

oh so I am the ignorant one pulease you still carry on with the doublespeak ,what about Osoma? how does he see the koran?you still wont address that question will you? or any other question like the one about getting fellow muslims to stop murdering in the name of allah you have been duped and I only hope you will wake up before its too late oh and by the way none of those incidents involved people murdering for what they read in the bible so its a moot point about other murderers who dont pose a threat to society just to those they killed and may they go to hell with the rest of the murderers in the world.I already told you I dont hate muslims its not about hat or race that is just more doublespeak on your part so in light of the neverending doublespeak and off topic bullshit from you and your insults bug off cult zombie

Posted by: tscipio at June 4, 2007 7:56 PM

The Muslim's gone. Probably when he saw your links, "interestin conundrum." You can bet he didn't want to click on your links. I did, however. Yeah, that peace and love and care toward women, amazing isn't it?

Also, my mention of honor killings? You can bet $ that when they see that phrase they either ignore it or leave.

What a bas-ard.

Oh, and hey "champ" - thanks for the mention. He didn't like seeing "abrogated Meccan verses," either!

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 8:08 PM

tscipio --

Zeb avoided some of my points/questions too, and then he took off just as things were getting started. Maybe his dinner was ready -- his wife is probably serving chicken.

Posted by: champ at June 4, 2007 8:12 PM

The type of discourse that JehanZeb is engaging in is the most commonplace attempt that we see today to obfuscate the correlation between Muslims who commit violence in the name of Allah and Islam.

JehanZeb refers to a defense of his religion based on his personal beliefs within the ideology and how he lives his own life. I doubt that anyone here would suggest that all or even most Muslims are prone to intolerance and violence against all things and people in the non-Islamic world.

That being said, his personal beliefs are irrelevant, as is the point of view of each and every Muslim individually, with respect to direct comparison to the big picture of Islam.

The unavoidably obvious mountains of sensory evidence that supports the position that violence commited by Islamists in the name of Allah that we read, watch and hear about every day, is overwhelming. The direct connection to many passages found in the Qur'an that validate these actions, a direct correlation to Islam, is irrefutable.

Instead of acknowledging this obvious connection, JehanZeb chooses rather to play the victim, calling us infidels here haters, people with nothing better to do than attack Islam and quite interestingly, Islam only. His argument falls incredibly short of lucid thinking, as if we are supposed to ignore all that our senses tell us. Methinks he is being disingenuine in this regard.

There is no value in pointing out the good in Islam and the good deeds of the Muslims who live their life in relative anonymity, while not owning up to the obvious problem in the Islamic world, a world where more and more faithful servants are supposedly misinterpreting their own religion, day after day after day.

The comprehension that there are many Muslims in the world who do not subscribe to the verses of the Qur'an that preach warfare against the infidel, when compared to what several posters already stated, that it is impossible on sight to differentiate between the "good" and the "bad", renders that basic comprehension, essentially useless.

If JehanZeb was genuinely attempting to connect with the members of this community he would cease to use this ploy. In the same regard that I personally have admitted in the beginning of my post that all is not wrong with Islam or all its adherents, JehanZeb would do well to admit to the opposite, that all is not peachy and loving and tolerant with respect to Muslims' attitudes towards non-Muslims.

That would be a requisite start. Failure to do so can only be judged as standard taqiyya, drivel to be ridiculed and then summarily ignored.

Posted by: awake at June 4, 2007 8:15 PM

"The Islam of yester-year"....I need to correct my own comment.

I should have said the Islam of Never-Really-Was.

Posted by: champ at June 4, 2007 8:16 PM

"The actions of a few should not influence perceptions about Islam and Muslims..."
-- from the article above

Which "few" is that?

Would it include the tens of thousands who trained with Al Qaeda? Would it include the many millions who are members of, inter alia, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Laskar Jihad, Lashkar Jihad, Jund al-Shams, Fatah al-Islam, Gemaa Islamiyaa, Jemaa Islamiyaa, Sipaha-e-Sihaba, Sunna al-Islam, and a hundred or two hundredld those "few" include the hundreds of millions who greeted with delirium, dancing and throwing of candies in the West Bank and Cairo and Syria, and Beirut, and the honking of horns, and invitations to happy feasts, in Saudi Arabia and much of the rest of the Persian Gulf states?All of this has been denied, of course, but all of it has been reported by reliable Western witnesses.Do those few include the many who have, since 9/11/2001, made “Osama” the most popular name for newborn males in the Muslim-ruled lands? Do those “few” include the former head of the Organization of Islamic Countries, Mahathir Mohamed, who told an enthusiastic audience of delegates that Muslims must learn to defeat their enemies by catching up with them, not in art not in science, not in economic or intellectual or political development, but in military technology, in weapons and delivery systems for those weapons? Would those “few” include his successor, Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, who to an American audience praised the system by which non-Muslims were, as he put so misleadingly, “protected” by Muslims (“protected” from attacks by Muslims in the same way that Al Capone “protected” small shopkeepers in Chicago from Al Capone). Would those “few” include those who have killed thousands of inoffensive Buddhist schoolteachers, and farmers, and monks, in southern Thailand? Would those “few” include the Muslims in Bangladesh who have driven out millions of Hindus, forcing them to flee to India, and who have made life hell for the Hindus who remain, and the few Buddhists as well? Would those “few” whose “actions” (discrimination, persecution, attacks, murder, mass-murder) we are told should “not influence perceptions about Islam and Muslims” include those who hailed the murders of Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam, and drove Ayaan Hirsi Ali to safer quarters in the United States? Would that “few” include those who were responsible for, and the many more Muslims who took fiendish you-had-it-coming-to-you pleasure in, the bombings of Atocha Station in Madrid? Of the London Underground? Who seized the Moscow theatre, and the Beslan School? The “few” who have destroyed thousands of churches in Indonesia, applauded those who beheaded Christian schoolgirls, those who set off bombs to killWestern Infidels at a resort in Hindu-populated Bali? The “few” about whom we read every day, creating mayhem and murder around the globe,so that Western newpapers,if they were intelligently to report the news (and they omit so much that is important, and contain so much that is insignificant) would have to have a separate section called “Jihad News.” It may come to that.

Do those “few” contain the Muslms in France who have rioted, and vandalized cars, and set houses on fire, and beaten to death any Frenchman who got in the way? The “few” who tortured to a slow death the Halimi boy because he was Jewish, and the other “few” – the millions of those “few” in France, who never said a thing, never expressed any grief afterwards, worried only about their being “victimized” which is a habit with Muslims after any Muslim outrage, or outrage prevented because a plot was uncovered in time – the theme of “what terrible thing is going to happen to us” but of course, they project onto Infidels what they would do, if given half a chance, failing to distinguish between the primitive and the civilized, the dutiful, even slavish, adherents, of a Total System, and those who do not believe in Total Systems.

Are those the “few” that Shaukat Aziz, the Pakistani Prime Minister, whose country has received close to $30 billion in the last half-dozen years as what amounts to a bribe, or "protection money" of a kind, has in mind? Or are these things I have listed merely a small sampling of that “few” because I lack at this point the time, the space, to list it all here – it would fill up half the Internet.

Posted by: Hugh at June 4, 2007 8:17 PM

champ,
I usualy dont post I am content to read everybody elses wisdom and leave it at that,but I had to say something this time.Zeb seems like he is probably a nice person who practices islam in a benign way that does not seem to agree with what the terrorists practice,and thats fine ,then my beef aint with him and he shouldnt get insulted,but if he was educated in America then he has an edge over someone educated in afganistan for example,he should be able to see that the islam that many of them are practicing is evil and if he can see this why is he wasting his time bothering us when he shoulld be part of an islamic organisation that seeks to change islam,not my opinion of murderers
I am having babyback spare ribs for dinner mmmmm mmmmm gotta love em

Posted by: tscipio at June 4, 2007 8:23 PM

Do you think I'm a violent and malevolent person?

Well, as an adherent of a violent and intolerant religion who refuses to acknowledge its violent and intolerant teachings, who also provides no way to deal with perpetrators of the violence and intolerance, I must presume that you are a jihad collaborator until I see the results of your background report.

Tata, have a nice day,

Posted by: Pelayo at June 4, 2007 8:24 PM

Jehanzeb

"Believers, fight them until there is no more persecution and all worsihp is devoted to God alone: if they desist, then God sees all that they do, but if they pay no heed, be sure that God is your protector, the best protector, and the best helper."

Okay, you gave us this quote and said there is no hate in it. But what does the exhortation to believers "to fight them until there is no more persecution and all worship is devoted to God alone" actually MEAN?

NO ONE was persecuting Arabs when they came out of the peninsula to destroy civilizations all over the ancient Middle East.

Why do you care which god (if any) I worship?

Then you said:

"Why should I side with you and "support this fight against terrorism" as you say, when people like YOU have no respect for my religion. I AM against terrorism and I am also against prejudice and racism, and your comments represent the anti-Islamic sentiment that exists in the west."

First, why do you need anyone else to respect your religion? It's yours. You should practice it with no regard for what anyone else thinks.

Second, are you saying you would side with Muslim terrorists who attacked anyone who posts on this site? Then how peaceful is Islam? You're against terrorism and you're against prejudice and racism, but which takes priority? If you encountered prejudice from a non-Muslim does that mean you would side with the terrorist who wanted to kill him? Were the riots against cartoons in a Danish publication justified? What was done to Islam that justified taking anyone's life?

In another post you said:

"There is antagonism towards the Israelis and American soldiers because the Palestinians have been oppressed and the Iraqis have been invaded, respectively."

Okay, so why was Theo van Gogh killed? He wasn't an Israeli and he wasn't an American soldier and he was nowhere near Palestine or Iraq. Why is Ayan Hirsi Alli forced to live with protection because she left Islam? What did all the Thais killed in just the last few weeks have to do with Palestine or Iraq? What did an old man in a wheelchair on a cruise in the Mediterranean do to Muslims to warrant being shot and thrown over the side of the boat? (probably before your time) And of course the big one: what did 2700 people at work in office buildings or on planes to another destination do to merit death at the hands of ISLAMIC terrorists?

You say you're peaceful and that you love all people. I'll take you at your word. Why do you defend anyone who would follow the example of Osama bin Laden? You say people hate you, but why do you feel compelled to answer with hate? Why not look at what has brought people to this point?

Do you care at all that people are blowing up schools and restaurants and killing Iraqis (not American soldiers - their own countrymen!) in broad daylight and justifying it with Islamic texts? Do you care about the suicide videos that come out on al Jazeera? Are these in agreement with Islam or not? If they're not then why aren't you condemning them? If they are then why are you condemning US? We didn't make them. Muslims did.

Does it matter to you that a terrorist group takes the name "ISLAMIC JIHAD"? How do you NOT expect us to equate Islam with terrorism?

In an interview with a Lebanese paper a leader of a group called Fath al-Islam said "There is no God but Allah' everywhere in the world."

Why does Islam even have a concept of land of war? What else is meant by dar-al-Harb? Why are non-Muslims not allowed to live and worship in Saudi Arabia? I'll give you the reason Saudis give: it's Mohammad's law that there shall be no religion other than Islam in the land of Arabia. It's time you learned: you'll get what you give.

Posted by: PMK at June 4, 2007 8:25 PM

"When you have children, do you want to teach them hate and intolerance towards Muslims or my Muslim children..."
-- from a posting by a Muslim above

They should be taught, and they are now being taught by the latest news, created by Muslims themselves, about what motivates Muslims, what is contained in Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, and what 1350 years of Jihad-conquest and subjugation of many different kinds of non-Muslims (Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucians, not to mention Jains, Yazidis, Mandeans, and many others) tells us -- and what it tells us is how to make sense of, how to understand, what the day's fresh news of mayhem and murder committed by Muslims around the world, mayhem and murder explained away through Taqiyya and Tu Quoque, and appeals to a false victimization that, by now, falls on deaf ears, and people who, the more they learn, the more implacably determined they become to limit the effects, the presence, the menace of Islam to them, to the legal and political instiuttions, to the ideas about individual rights and free inquiry and artistic expression, that are flatly denied by the letter, and the spirit, of Islam.

Of course we must teach them not to be naive, not to be ignorant, not to be fools -- what would you expect, after what we have all witnessed and endured? Do you think there is a non-Muslim in Western Europe today who would deny the truth of the following:

The large-scale presence of Muslims in Infidel lands has created a situation that is far more unpleasant, expensive, and physically insecure for Infidels than would be the case without such a large-scale presence.

People in Western Europe may differ on the degree of their fatalism, or their fright. Some may not be frightened or fatalistic at all -- many, in fact. But they cannot disagree with the observation. That observation is derived from simply looking about, reading, studying, watching the evening news. Nothing else needs to be done. No one needs to shout against Islam. It is Muslims who are doing all the work, offering all the instruction Infidels, even the most naive, even the most convinced "dialoguists," will ever need.

Posted by: Hugh at June 4, 2007 8:27 PM

What of the 78 military Jihads that Mohammed led personally? What of all Mohammed's terroristic acts and his statement that "I have been made victorious with terror"? (Bukhari 4:52:220)
and: Qur’an 8:12- "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them."
Ishaq:461- "Muhammad besieged them for twenty-five nights. When the siege became too severe for them, Allah terrorized them. Then they were told to submit."
Islam was founded on terrorism, intimidation, lies and deceit.
These are just more of the usual lies from the Muslims.

Posted by: Timur at June 4, 2007 8:35 PM

PMK, Here's the problem as I see part of it. When the word God is used for the Muslim god instead of Allah, there is a perception that Jews, Christians, and Muslims worship the same god. I never, ever use "God" when referring to the Mohammedan diety; it's always Allah. When a Muslim commenter uses God for Allah, he or she must be corrected immediately.

Posted by: Pelayo at June 4, 2007 8:39 PM

"When you have children, do you want to teach them hate and intolerance towards Muslims or my Muslim children..."
Read the comments here,

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/06/update-on-jimmuh-from-ummah.html

Posted by: interestinconundrum at June 4, 2007 8:41 PM

I'll make a deal with Aziz: I'll go to sensitivity training if he reads "The Truth About Mohammed".

Posted by: jewdog at June 4, 2007 8:42 PM

I’m not buying it. Even if they stop killing infidels, even if they renounce terrorism, what is left? The subjugation of women, the inequality of justice, the censorship, the forbidding of music, the sexual segregation, the clothes, the food, the rules (way too many of them). Am I insane or do I not want anything to do with it? I happen to like our country in spite of some of our problems. But our problems pale in comparison to when islam is entered into the mix, witness Thailand. So thanks but no thanks mister, but nevertheless I will throw you a “peace” you sound like a decent guy albeit a misunderstander of your own religion.

Posted by: tgusa at June 4, 2007 8:52 PM

"But they cannot disagree with the observation. That observation is derived from simply looking about, reading, studying, watching the evening news."

And no amount of name calling, or accusing us of "hating" to confuse us and make us back down, will change that observation. Just because Jihad Zeb has been brainwashed into seeing "up" as "down" and "war" as "peace" does not mean the rest of us have. And for humanity's sake, thankfully we haven't.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at June 4, 2007 8:52 PM

Just look at this site:
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php
Micro management of one's life. You have to ask how to go to the toilet for Pete's sake.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at June 4, 2007 8:58 PM

Jehan,
Here's one problem that can generate hate as I see it.Bin Laden used Islamic teachings to instigate 9/11, and over 3000 of my countrymen are dead.
Bin Laden has not been labeled apostate.The texts used by Bin Laden and other extremists have not been declared to have been taught in error or misread.There is no challenge to what they teach except from infidels.
Either you are not a Muslim, or Bin Laden is not a Muslim, or the teachings stand as used, or the teachings are wrong.
Which is it?????
Because of the silence, you have been lumped in with the dungheap of extremists where you belong.

Posted by: HawkWatcher at June 4, 2007 9:11 PM

Hate is a particularly ‘heavy’ accusation to level at someone. Hate is something you’d need to have in order to cut someone’s head off with a knife. Hate is something you’d need to encourage your children to slap on a bomb belt to kill themselves with. I could be wrong here but I suspect there are no individuals posting on my side of the fence who have sufficient hate to indulge in hateful acts such as these. Nor do I believe that there are any here who would be inclined to preach the cold blooded murder of those who are of another religious or political persuasion.

We were treated to a rhetorical question by our latest Muslim interloper “Do you want to place Muslims in concentration camps?” Again I suspect that the answer to that would be “No, we would prefer not to…..but…….”
We were also treated to the suggestion that ‘Genocide’ might be a secret desire of the posters on this site. Nice one! I would imagine that genocide is more fashionable among the more excitable religious fanatics in places other than this one.
I would suggest to our Muslim guest that the reason he sees so much written here on the subject of ‘Hate’ is a direct result of discussing Islam, which as we have seen by it’s very existence makes it impossible to ignore the matter of ‘Hate’.

However, by poking the bears with his Islamic stick it has produced a fair number of posts on this Pakistani PM’s slavering drivel, so that’s something positive we can all thank a Muslim for….and that is a rare event.

Posted by: Jihadtobejoking at June 4, 2007 9:30 PM

Hugh asked:

Which "few" is that?

Hugh, in all fairness to the Pakistani prime minister, the latest census figures show that there are 48 trillion Muslims. It is the fastest-growing religion in the world, you know. In the time it took me to type that sentence, another 11 trillion people converted, oops, make that reverted, to Islam, and another 8 trillion Muslims were born. Conservative estimates project 100 trillion Muslims by tomorrow morning. Muslims will soon outnumber atoms in the universe.

Thus, even a few trillion Muslim terrorists is a "few".

Posted by: venividivici at June 4, 2007 9:30 PM

Interestin Conundrum,

LOL!!!!

In tonight's issue:

No working as a bouncer.
No eating doubtful chicken.
No praying on the bus.
A-Ok to borrow money to send mom & pop on the Hajj.
Gotta go 55 miles to be considered a Musafir(?!)

But, as Sammy would say, I can't drive, 55.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at June 4, 2007 9:32 PM

"Are the deaths of innocent Palestinians and Iraqis and Aghanis representative of your faith? Or what about the bombing in Oklahoma? Or the Virginia Tech shootings, or the shooting at the Amish school a year ago? Do they represent you? Do they represent America? No, of course not. So beheadings, suicide bombing, and the murder of American soldiers is not representive of me nor of Islam."

We are so tired of hearing these supposed comparisons. Nowhere in the Bible are Christians taught to kill, murder, oppress or subjugate others. No verses teach us that other people are inferior to us, or that women are property.

Compare the life of the Lord Jesus Christ to the life of mohammed.

I think we are all aware that these comparisons are not valid. Like others here, though, I try to treat everyone with respect.

"Hate is a particularly ‘heavy’ accusation to level at someone. Hate is something you’d need to have in order to cut someone’s head off with a knife. Hate is something you’d need to encourage your children to slap on a bomb belt to kill themselves with. I could be wrong here but I suspect there are no individuals posting on my side of the fence who have sufficient hate to indulge in hateful acts such as these. Nor do I believe that there are any here who would be inclined to preach the cold blooded murder of those who are of another religious or political persuasion."

Excellent point, jihadtobejoking. Thank you for expanding on this important difference. Again, it shows that ANY criticism whatsoever of islam results in accusations of hate rather than a patient explanation from islamic teachings refuting the criticism.

Posted by: Stand fast in the liberty at June 4, 2007 9:48 PM

I don’t know what the big deal is, muslims break our laws and they get invited to DC, state capitals, airport urinals/prayer rooms. Our leaders, guvners senators, representatives and such are telling us, hey its ok to break our laws and if you do we will give you citizenship right away! So why should we follow our laws, if we break any we should get amnesty as well. And how about amnesty for any our troops who stand accused of, well anything that happened in the wot? Fair is fair and equal protection is for everyone so cmon pols give us all amnesty. As a matter of fact since you wont do anything to insure the safety of our citizens how bout a raincheck, I’ll use mine later after the stuff hits the fan and we are forced to do the jobs the guvment and its institutions are unwilling to do.

Posted by: tgusa at June 4, 2007 9:54 PM

And they have nukes....

That can't be good.

Posted by: McSeamus at June 4, 2007 9:54 PM

And they have nukes....

That can't be good.
Posted by: McSeamus

Consider....the most dangerous thing to a Muslim, is another Muslim. Therefore you are most probably correct it can't be good, for other Muslims.

Posted by: Jihadtobejoking at June 4, 2007 9:59 PM

Why are there so many? Because if you leave, you get killed. That keeps people from leaving, and the numbers of apostates very, very low!

As Hugh pointed out, just the fact that the punishment for apostacy is death is sufficient to regard Islam with suspicion.

Posted by: Mo Foe at June 4, 2007 10:16 PM

Islam is not a religion of peace. The Qur'an contradicts the bible and calls it and Jesus a liar. The two religions will never be compatible.

Posted by: Timur at June 4, 2007 10:27 PM

~JehanZeb~,

Would it suprise you that in Islam, in the Koran 4:34, a husband is allowed to beat his wife? Please do not deny it, it is there.

Also the Christian faith has always treated women with respect and honor. Begining with Jesus and the great love he showed for his mother Mary, and the women that began to follow him, the Gospels and the Christian is full of good examples of this respect and esteem.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 4, 2007 10:28 PM

~JehanZeb~,

The best way to do research on Islam is to do it via the internet because it is a wonderful tool that contains many very useful websites on the subject.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 4, 2007 10:37 PM

JehanZeb SEZ:

you need to work towards understanding

Hey Jehan, only my PARENTS ever got away with telling me YOU NEED TO . . . . this is America, pal -- and to have some muslim tell me "I need to... do 'anything'" further makes me the Islamophobe you state I am

911, pal, 911

Indeed Satan Lives At Mecca (ISLAM)

Posted by: Crunchy Jello at June 4, 2007 10:45 PM

Jehan, You aound like a decent guy and I hope to God that if that is your true self there are many more like you. My Doctor and My Cardiologist are both Muslim and I would be hard pressed to find a more decent,caring person.

That said, the problem we face is not with the admittedly millions of muslims who would not think to commit the horrific acts of barbaric atrocities we see all over the world, but with those who do so in the name of Islam.

We can quote Quran verses back and forth untill the end of time but it will not change the fact that there are MUSLIMS who are interpreting the Quran in exactly the same way you are accusing us of wrongly interpreting it, and Imams preaching it the same way.

I, like you, would much prefer that people of all faiths, and all nationalities would love and respect each other, indeed, that is what my christian religion teaches..that we should love our neighbor as ourselves. I truly wish that it were possible, but Jesus also said "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

To gain some insight into our perspective PLEASE go to the MEMRI site and spend a couple of hours perusing the videos of what other Muslims are saying.

Until we see the same zeal and passion in multitudes crying "Death to Terrorism",.."Death to Violence in the name of Islam" do not speak about the Religion of peace>

Posted by: TEXROCK at June 4, 2007 10:50 PM

Just by reading the comments posted on this website, it's hard to believe that you people actually have the nerve to call yourselves "Human Beings."

So...people who are critical of islam are...not human beings. Are they apes and pigs, then?

You accuse Islam - my way of Life - of being a terrorist religion, but the Truth is, your hearts are filled with so much hate and prejudice that you WANT to hate Muslims.

Ludicrous. The people on this forum are reacting to islamic hatred, and so therefore they're the prejudiced ones?

If any of you were to meet a Muslim, would you be able to tell them how you feel about Islam face to face? It's as if you hide behind the internet because you KNOW that your opinions would never be accepted by a sane society.

Define "sane society". Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Syria? Egypt? Palestine? Malaysia? Are those socities "sane", and if so, is it only on the basis of their common religion with you? Is it the rest of the world that refers to islamic civilization as "dar al harb", or is it islamic civilization that refers to the rest of the world in those terms? I do often wonder if the posters - or anyone else, for that matter - would indeed be able to criticize islam to a muslim without the threat of being accused of "racism". Here in dar-al-harb, anyway. In dar-al-islam, that 'peaceful' place of "submission", I know they wouldn't be. Instead, they'd simply be imprisoned or killed.

Just ask this question to yourself. Are you suggesting genocide? Do you want to place Muslims in concentration camps?

You mean, oppress them until their allegiance is paid with "both hands" as in Sura 9? Do muslims want to put non-muslims in concentration camps? Well...yes. What else is one supposed to infer from their constant persecution in dar-al-islam? Without even mentioning apostates, of course.

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 4, 2007 10:56 PM

Jehan:
When Hitler and his Nazis rode to power and committed terrible autrocities in the name of the Fatherland or the Aryian race, many Germans watched and did nothing. Most of them were hard working people who unfortunately eventually paid the price when the rest of the world decided they had just about enough and the appeasement process or the thought that one could live in harmony with the Nazis was finally abandoned in the stalk truth that the Nazis could not be appeased. This is the coming situation that worries you so, a person of good will, who by taking no action against the Jiahdists and their idealogy, will eventually have to wear the uniform of those, who you say, misrepresent your religion.

I, too, consider myself to be a man of good will, but by every indication of my soul, I see nothing less than terrible conflict between Muslim and non-Muslim with myself being steadfastly on the side of the non-Muslims without a banner of Faith or a line of religious dogma as my creed. Your energy, zeal and good will should be directed toward your co-religionists who see themselves as a direct, divine reincarnation of a 7th century mentality that segregates the world into factions of Muslim and non-Muslim with the latter being subservant or destroyed by the hand of the former. Against this Supremicism and as a duty to my human race I will risk my life to this fight as did my father against the Fascists of the past. Is this out of hatred which I speak?

I have come to a point, as have most who visit this site, that the days of inter-Faith dialogue are over. It is time to teach our Infidel children what they are up against. It is time to draw stregnth from the spiritual fountains of our ancestors who fought this battle in the past. If you and what you say are the majority of Muslims want to avoid this conflict, then I suggest you overwhelm the bands of Islamists who preach hate in the name of Islam, who kill fellow Muslims for not posessing the "pure" form of Islam and not continue the cheap talk of what is real Islam and what isn't real Islam. Walk the walk. Talk is cheap.

Posted by: Briars at June 4, 2007 10:58 PM

Jehan Zeb and all Muslim lurkers:

I cannot understand how any thinking person can be a Muslim. It is so obviously a cult, even if an enormous and dangerous one. Consider the first line of the Koran that is directed to readers:

002.002
YUSUFALI: This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah;
PICKTHAL: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
SHAKIR: This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

No god worthy of worship needs to assault his flock like this. Rather, these are words used by con men to browbeat their victims, i.e. 'have no doubt that what I say is true; you will learn to trust me (us)'. In my business I've had occasion to hear these words from some of the best...Kozlowski of Tyco, "Chainsaw" Al Dunlap of Sunbeam, etc. Not a prophet in the bunch. As far as I'm concerned, this exhortation condemns the Koran right up front. When I hear words like this, I reach to make sure my wallet hasn't been lifted.

You folks are in deep, and I understand that you've been brainwashed from birth into a cult that won't let go easily (just ask Lina Joy!). But as Ali Sina and others have demonstrated, it can be done. May the One True Lord of the Universe give you strength to pursue that path.

Posted by: materialguy at June 4, 2007 11:04 PM

All the war quotes you cite are directed towards the Quraysh during a time of battle, and if you read ANY of those chapters, you will find God always promising MERCY and FORGIVENESS to anyone who incites peace or turns to Him.

You forgot to mention that.

Rather, this is the problem.

The islamic definition of war only ends with i) the death of the nonbelievers, ii) the forcible conversion of the nonbelievers or iii) oppression of the nonbelievers (which is doubly ironic in that Mohammed said that "oppression is worse than slaughter"). This is not precisely a system of MERCY and FORGIVENESS so much as a classical outcome of medieval or Dark Ages war: kill the enemy, or convert him to fight for you, or force him to finance your further wars by allowing other funds to be applied to the continued prosecution of warfare. This is not peace; this is not mercy. This is islam; which is to say "submission".

Posted by: Geoff at June 4, 2007 11:05 PM

"Crunchy Jello" - loved your post. Imagine a Muslim telling us we NEED to do this or that! How did such a sad state of affairs get this far that he feels he can do that? Oh, yes, I'm an Islamophobe, too. Proud. With good reason.

After 9/11 a Muslim believes that he can tell us how to feel and what to think! How did that happen? It's unbelievable.

"Geoff" - also loved your post. The nerve of that Muslim with his genocide remark when right now Arab Muslims in Sudan are and have been genociding the Christians and animists! The hypocrisy is -here's that word again- unbelievable!

I just watched a show on PBS called "Six Days in June" about the 1967 Arab-Israeli War in which the Israelis KICKED ARAB ASS! LOL! And may I add, YAHOO!

Gee, I wonder where "Allah" was! Egypt and Jordan and Syria sure must have wondered BIG TIME why "Allah" deserted them!!! And may I add, LOL!

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 11:08 PM

"I never, ever use "God" when referring to the Mohammedan diety; it's always Allah. When a Muslim commenter uses God for Allah, he or she must be corrected immediately."

Pelayo,
You're right. I simply quoted back to him what he said was in the Quran. It's also why I used the small g (god) in my reply to the quote.

The quote from a Palestinian terrorist also makes clear that 'Allah' is a specific god and not a universal name:

"There is no God but Allah' everywhere in the world."

Jehanzeb didn't say that one. I lifted it from MEMRI.

I also wanted to correct him on the notion that Islam is an "Abrahamic" faith, but there wasn't enough energy in my fingers and it wouldn't have done much good, anyway. I, like most people here, could have printed out that one message he wrote and written an entire thesis.

Regarding "God" and "Allah", the people that need to be corrected are our media but I don't think they care all that much. Understanding the difference between the two terms requires reasoning and critical judgment, which only makes their stories more difficult to write. They're not in the business of making judgments, unless, of course, it's about us evil Americans. To them, any religion is hokey.

Posted by: PMK at June 4, 2007 11:11 PM

Cartoon riots? Here's a link to my blog where I discussed that

Yes. I've seen your blog. You excused the rioters on the basis of their being offended, and called Westerners ignorant. So: no different than any other islamic apologist. Why would you cite the blog in this context?

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 4, 2007 11:12 PM

"Muhammad said that the men and women are twin halves for one another. Every human being, even YOU with your cold heart, has a TWIN HALF, a SOUL MATE, a LIFE PARTNER. Every man has an Eve and every woman has an Adam."

Hmmm. Mohammad also said a man could have up to 4 of these "twin halves." So just how does this work? Calling them a marriage of quintuplet fifths is the easiest for my oh-so-Western mind to understand, but then they'd no longer be twin halves, so there must be another answer. Is it that the man is a half and all his wives share in the other half, so that his twin half is actually quadruplet eighths? Or is it a creative accounting issue where each of his wives counts as his other half, so that 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 + 1/2 = 1?

Can someone explain Muslim math to me?

Posted by: CJ at June 4, 2007 11:14 PM

~JehanZeb~ said

I did not imagine the racist treatment I've experienced.

What "racist treatment" are you talking about? What race are you? We don't know, we don't care, and we didn't insult it, whatever it is.

I did not imagine my Mosque being vandilized...

??? Who vandalized your mosque? What are you talking about? It sounds like you're working yourself into a lathery jihadi froth.

... or someone spewing racial slurs at me and those I Love.

I repeat, what "racial slurs"?

So instead of promoting hatred for a people, we need to stand united as human beings.

What a beautiful concept: Imagine not hating people purely because their religious beliefs are different than your own. Imagine not using violence to force non-believers (or believers in other religions) to follow your beliefs. Imagine treating women as equals to men. Imagine allowing believers to leave the faith if they so choose.

If only you can convince your fellow Muslims of the beauty of this concept. But, they may convince you, since they have the Qur'an and ahadith and centuries of Islamic jurisprudence on their side:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Qur’an 4:91 “You will find others who, while wishing to live in peace and being safe from you to gain the confidence of their people; thrown back to mischief headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and offer you peace besides restraining their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear sanction and authority.”

Qur'an 7:97 "Did the people of the towns feel secure against the coming of Our wrath by night while they were asleep? Or else did they feel secure against its coming in broad daylight while they played about (carefree)? Did they then feel secure against the Plan of Allah? But no one can feel secure from the Plan of Allah, except those (doomed) to ruin!"

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur’an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur’an 47:4 “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens.”

And on and on and on. There are many, many, many more examples in the Qur'an of the kind of "peace" that Islam offers.

Bukhari:V1B1N6 “Just issue orders to kill every Jew in the country.”

Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”

Ishaq:308/Tabari VII:65 “When the Apostle was in Safra, Nadr was assassinated. When Muhammad reached Irq al-Zabyah he killed Uqbah. When the Prophet ordered him to be killed, Uqbah said, ‘Who will look after my children, Muhammad?’ “Hellfire,’ the Apostle replied, and he was killed.”

Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in you belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.”

Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina, and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men.”

Ishaq:597 “When the Apostle returned to Medina after his raid on Ta’if, word spread that he had killed some of the men who had satirized and insulted him. The poets who were left spread in all directions.”

Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.”

And on and on and on the hadiths go. There are reams of this stuff. Pure violent filth. Unadulterated depravity. Beheadings, torture, stabbings, amputations. And that's not even going into the pedophilia, rape, slavery, thievery.

And I'm sure ~JehanZeb~ will claim that these (and the hundreds of other similar or worse examples) are taken out of context, that they are a bad translation, that we need to read the entire Qur'an from cover to cover, in Arabic, while standing on one leg and hopping, while flapping one arm like a bird, otherwise we won't see the "beauty" of what we're reading.

In case there are any newcomers to JW/DW who may have thought ~JehanZeb~ sounded like a reasonable person, please go and investigate for yourself. ~JehanZeb~ claims that the Qur'an and Muhammad and Allah are peaceful. Read the books yourself and decide who is being honest and who is being deceitful.

~JehanZeb~ came, insulted the people here, trotted out the tired old "racist" claims, made the same vague and unsubstantiated proclamations that Islam is peaceful despite all the evidence to the contrary, then fled while claiming we insulted and humiliated him and all Muslims. It's an old, well-rehearsed act.

Posted by: special_guest at June 4, 2007 11:14 PM

Hugh, in all fairness to the Pakistani prime minister, the latest census figures show that there are 48 trillion Muslims. It is the fastest-growing religion in the world, you know. In the time it took me to type that sentence, another 11 trillion people converted, oops, make that reverted, to Islam, and another 8 trillion Muslims were born. Conservative estimates project 100 trillion Muslims by tomorrow morning. Muslims will soon outnumber atoms in the universe.

Thus, even a few trillion Muslim terrorists is a "few".

Posted by: venividivici at June 4, 2007 9:30 PM

Thanks for the best laugh I've had all day! I'm surprised we haven't heard these "official" figures from islamic sources yet. When muslims aren't engaged in killing sprees or terror plots, they're busy breeding. I'm calling the exterminator.

Posted by: Susanp at June 4, 2007 11:16 PM

"materialguy," I laughed out loud when I read your "I understand that you've been brainwashed since birth." Excellent!

I'd like the insulting, delusional, CREEP misogynist Muslim to answer: Where was "Allah" during those Six Days in June 1967 when the JEWS CRUSHED, DECIMATED, HUMILIATED AND UTTERLY BEAT THE PANTS OFF Egypt, Jordan, and Syria?

And may I add, Thank You, our Judeo-Christian God, the ONLY GOD.

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 11:19 PM

Susanp - I cracked up when I read your "I'm calling the exterminator." Great one!

special_guest - you are right. The Muslim came here and insulted everyone. Denied everything. Left when we started trotting out links and facts and Koran quotes and probing questions. Just like the cowards' "Allah's" minions are.

History repeats itself. Remember when Nazi's started getting bolder and insolent? Well, that time has been reached with the Muslims. The problem is, there's many more Muslims than Nazis. What in the world is going to happen in the future?

Posted by: darcy at June 4, 2007 11:33 PM

*
The real phobia is "Non-islamophobia" which is the fear and hatred from within Islam for those who exist outside of Islam. This "Non-islamophobia" pervades Islam and explains why Muslims are murdering innocent Non-muslims all around the world in the name of their intolerant, supremacist faith.
*

Posted by: alexon at June 4, 2007 11:41 PM

"[29:46] “And argue not with the People of the Book except in a way that is best, unless it be with those of them who do wrong, but say: ‘We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we submit."

~JehanZeb~,

Sounds great,JehanZeb, but now explain why it is that you can't build a church in Saudi Arabia, or even be a citizen of that country and be a non-Muslim. Explain why a convert to Christianity in Iran and Arabia are officially executed as apostates under the laws of those countries, and unofficially executed in most other Muslim countries. Explain why you can't build or even repair a church in Egypt without a signed permit from the President of the country.

Explain why Christians live in terror of being murdered by Muslims in Muslim countries from Algeria to Indonesia.

I can't make up my mind if you think we're all stupid, or you live in some kind of fantasy world.

And no, your God is not our God. I don't recognize in your Allah aaanything that remotely resembles the God of the Jews and Christians.

Posted by: rational at June 5, 2007 12:03 AM

Here's Hugh's favorite taqiyya doctor Tariq Ramadan:

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/06/04/tariq-ramadan-beats-the-islamophobia-drum-blair-can-no-longer-deny-a-link-exists-between-terrorism-and-foreign-policy/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at June 5, 2007 12:09 AM

We suffer from islamophobia because they have dacnomania, entheomania, ethnomania, gynaecomania, hieromania, phonomania, polemomania, pornomania, sebastomania and probably peotillomania as well. Put them all together and you end up with islamomania.

I’m sure there are lots of manias I have failed to include so here, make up you own list...

Posted by: tgusa at June 5, 2007 12:10 AM

Has anyone seen this case of Muslim respect for women and other people's property?
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/broward/sfl-604crash,0,5245361.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

Hey, she got it my way so I just had to kill her. No offense, though.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at June 5, 2007 1:03 AM

He does not sound like a nice guy to me...snake oil salesman is more like it. The first time he used the word hate, the jig is up. All troll's use that buzz word. It means 'intense dislike'. Humans intensly dislike lots of stuff.
In fact, the troll intensly dislikes the posters here, so he is guilty of hate himself, hypocrite.
Have you noticed the supremist attitude this troll and all others display. He know's better than you infidels, and he try's to take the moral and intellectual highground. In other words, these psuedo-supremists, come here to preach. They dont come here to learn anything, they already know it all. It is you kuffars who need to be taught. You just dont understand Islam.
BUUUUUT we know better than that, dont we?
The posters here handled the troll attack just fine. All he could do is repeat himself, and try to sound superior. Fell flat on his face and bowed out...gracefully of course, he would not like us to think muslims are poor losers...

Posted by: duh_swami at June 5, 2007 1:15 AM

duh_swami --

Everything you observed is so right on! And I liked your "snake oil salesman", that was good.

:)

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 2:19 AM

You did a great job guys. Hats off. :)

Posted by: arjun.sevak at June 5, 2007 2:36 AM

You have only got to look at MEMRI T.V. Listen to the imams and sheiks!!!

MEMRI TV

http://memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=111#

Posted by: amalteser at June 5, 2007 3:15 AM

Pakistani PM: Attempts to equate Islam with terrorism must be rejected ...

... by the damn jihaddis idiot!

So check it out Aziz, we'll drop it when they do.

Till then, well, so far as I'm concerned, you're just collateral damage waiting to happen.

Posted by: joeblough at June 5, 2007 4:40 AM

Assalamau Laikum all,

Shakaut Aziz is an able politician....However as Pak primeminister he has enough problems other than worrying about Islam and what the West thinks about it.

Lets look at the Pak landscape at the moment, Who are the important players? Well we have the army, the mullahs, the PPP and Nawaz Sharif’s Muslim League. These institutions are now complimented by the regional fervour of the Baloch, the Pashtuns, the Punjabis, and the Sindhis... we musn't forget the wonderful MQM bringing up the rear...oh and it's all topped up with the taliban in the North and now Islamabad itself.

The (Amerki trained) Afgan army...is having a go at Pak not kerbing the taliban....the taliban is barking that we (Pak) the same peoples ..how can we possibly listen to the Amerki...they poison our minds in attempting to link terrorism and Islam....I mean the deciet of the Amerike.

The Taliban KNOW that only they follow Islam better...they cannot help themsleves..."and we must show the others how to do it" thay say...I mean for Allah's sake...."who doesn't want to fashion a brillo beard"....or why would womens not want to wear a burka in the heat is beyond them...worse still why wouldn't you want to be seen with the latest fashion accessory...a danda for the womens and an Ak47 for the mensfolk....Shakaut ofcourse will tell you "that's all rubbish ...Islam means peace".

Pak (at the moment) is in a bit of a mess....statistics have shown that Pak is the 6th most dangerous country to live in...with only countries like Iraq, Somalia, Nigeria and the Darfur lagging behind. Recent moves by Mushi to curb press freedom and the judishary challenging the very existence of the government have not have not really helped,

I mean it's the bleeding contrdictions for Shakaut....Islam, Amerki, democracy, Sharia, Family ties, Regional Ties, Parliment, Army, Mullah, taliban, rising population, Bob Woolmer.......arggggg...just shut up and let the man think

Now given this scenario...do you REALLY think that Shakaut wants to hear that the West want to link Islam with terrorism....don't you think the man needs a break...not to mention that this is his very deen.

In this mix, the truth is that Tribal loyalties are much stronger than political parties....locals care little for other regions...and family loyalties are the strongest.

The more corruption there is...the closer that people want to get to Islam. Peoples are ready to embrace sharia....provided that this lead to a fairer, less corrupt and more just system of living....I mean it has to....it is holy ...ordained by Allah SWT for the complete flat earth.....how can there be any other truth?

Posted by: Naseem at June 5, 2007 5:36 AM

When I see THOUSANDS of muslims marching AGAINST terrorism, when I see a fatwa against Bin Laden, etc., THEN and ONLY THEN might I start to be convinced that they are against terrorism and are prepared to be tolerant of others.

Their silence and failure to speak against terrorism is LOUD AND CLEAR.

Maggie Thatcher had it perfectly right after 911. Where is the outrage from the Muslim community????

Posted by: The Goobs at June 5, 2007 7:06 AM

Naseem's inimitable post above is worth reading.

As to Tariq Ramadan, mentioned above, Paul Berman has a good/bad essay on him in "The New Republic." Good because by the end of the essay you know that Ramadan possesses a "serpent's smile" and "unfathom'd gulfs of guile." Good because by the end of the essay, nice New Republic readers, knowing little about Islam, will at the very least have concluded that Ramadan is indeed a snake, and that that those who have been taken in by, and proved to be apologists for him, such as Timothy Garton Ash and Ian Buruma (who also happens to have cruelly and stupidly attacked Ayaan Hirsi Ali) are not to be taken seriously.

Bad, however, because Berman himself cannot bother to study Qur'an, Hadith, and sira, and has decided that all the evils of Islam that we observe today come from 20th century Fascism, and variants upon it. Just as Bernard Lewis so wrongly attributes the antisemitism of Islam to European models, and has consistently failed, throughout his long career, to recognize the Islamic basis of Muslim antisemitism, even appears not to have read, or made use of, sources he refers to in his notes, such as Georges Vajda, and has belittled and diminished and ignored the work, for as long as he could, of Bat Ye'or (dismissing it as "polemical" instead of praising it, as he should have, as "pioneering"), so Berman, a predictable enfant du siecle, especially if that siecle starts out on the Lower East Side and ends on the Upper West Side, history-haunted, that history including Rosa Luxemburg and Kurt Leibknecht, Trotsky in Coyoacan with an ice-pick in his head, the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, und so weiter, until we end up with an aged Kerensky visiting the dacha of Professor Karpovich in West Wardsboro, Vermont and, not too far from there, an aged Heinrich Bruening rubbing shoulders with dairy farmers and Dartmouth professors while buying his groceries at Dan and Whit's in Norwich, Vermont.

Yes, Berman knows there is something wrong and menacing about Islam today. But he does not know enough, and does not wish to know enough, about where that something comes from. He's the kind of fellow made most comfortable believing it's a modern phenomenon, the result possibly of Muslim disarray as it "encounters modernity." It would be too difficult for him to accept that Tariq Ramadan, taqiyya master, or the members of the hundred or thousand or ten thousand terror groups and groupuscules, are perfectly orthodox Muslims, and had European fascists and communists never existed, their views on non-Muslims, including their views on Jews about which Berman is keenly aware, would be exactly what they are.

Good, and Bad.

And good will come of his essay, and evil.

It is up to others to pocket his good, and figure out what "evil" and come of his self-assured ignorance about Islam and the "roots" of the current, and permanent, crisis.

Posted by: Hugh at June 5, 2007 7:06 AM

Naseem is a BRIT and Naseem is a MAN.

Come out of the closet Naseem.

Posted by: The Goobs at June 5, 2007 7:09 AM

Islam is terror...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at June 5, 2007 7:15 AM

Yes, Berman knows there is something wrong and menacing about Islam today. But he does not know enough, and does not wish to know enough, about where that something comes from. He's the kind of fellow made most comfortable believing it's a modern phenomenon, the result possibly of Muslim disarray as it "encounters modernity."

Hugh, I agree that trying to map the Muslim mentality to the same sort of 'crisis of modernity' thesis used to explain fascism is only of limited use. But, since fascism is such a dirty word in the Western political lexicon, isn't any connection drawn between Islam and fascism bound to have positive political effects, and, more importantly, military effects? The smoking hulk of "political Islam", should we ever get around to destroying it like we did the fascist powers, may not be able to be rebuilt in the same ways Italy, German and Japan could be rebuilt, because of Islam, but as long as we follow an enlightened policy of never letting political Islam get back on its feet, is it really such a bad thing that they never progress materially, because we finally learned that throwing money at them doesn't diminish their desire to destroy us?

I guess what I'm asking is whether or not the "evils" that could result from Berman's essay are far enough down the road that they really only impact Muslims, not us, assuming that Muslims even care about material progress, which seems really doubtful to me. Unless we're talking about weapons systems.

Posted by: venividivici at June 5, 2007 7:36 AM

Assalamau Laikum the goobs...

I was born and did my schooling (and degree) in the UK...in that sense I am a bit of a brit...

I married my Anwer...who was also at the same uni (and an Ahmadi to boot) studying from Pak.

We go married and I moved to lahore...over 25 years ago....I must admit to a little britishness in me....I cannot help who I am a little bit.

But you must never try to take away the Ahmadi muslima out of me...I was happily married...but after Anwer's passing I now have my childrens around me...

I don't see why you want me to admit to who I am not.

Posted by: Naseem at June 5, 2007 7:37 AM

Go for it, Nasseem. Bang your head on the floor till it hurts. Never leave the house without your minders and your portable seclusion...

Enjoy the public flogging! all in the name of Allaballawallah...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at June 5, 2007 7:43 AM

Naseem wrote:
"Pak (at the moment) is in a bit of a mess....statistics have shown that Pak is the 6th most dangerous country to live in...with only countries like Iraq, Somalia, Nigeria and the Darfur lagging behind."

Indeed. Those are six fine examples of countries where Islam is operating in full vigor.

Posted by: awake at June 5, 2007 8:42 AM

You're right, duh_swami - that Muslim was NOT a "nice guy." I was surprised to see a few posters here saying that when in fact the Muslim called us "non-humans, ignorant, filled with hate and prejudice" etc! Hello! NOT a "nice guy."

You're also right duh_swami that as soon as they start with the "hate" stuff, which this guy did immediately - the "jig is up." Also, he flatly denied the horrid treatment of females in Islam. Again, NOT a "nice guy." In fact, that guy is our enemy, no doubt about it. Also, acting all superior and grandiose the way they do - telling US here at JW how to feel, what to think! My God, as I asked last night, how have things gotten so far? That barbarians feel they can order us around! I wish I had a crystal ball to see how all of this is going to play out in the future.

Don't forget, these people are Moon-o-Theists, not monotheists, i.e. they're Godless.

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 8:48 AM

OK, so the 6 most dangerous countries to live in are : Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Nigeria, and Pakistan, is that right? And ALL Islamic.

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 8:52 AM

There are 1400 years worth of reasons to keep a distance from Islam.

All this Rubbish about Islam being "peaceful" is getting to be too much.

When i in 4 Muslim men in America, under the age of 30 wish to blow themselves up, betray any aspect of Peace as the word is known today. One can only guess how high that % is in less developed Countries.

What people like JehanZeb fail to understand is how hard the MSM has tried to limit the exposure of Islamic Violence to the General Population.

Posted by: flowerknife_us at June 5, 2007 8:53 AM

flowerknife - I don't think too many people believe that "peaceful" crap anymore. Which is why the Paki PM had to "protest too much."

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 9:04 AM

The more corruption there is...the closer that people want to get to Islam. Peoples are ready to embrace sharia....provided that this lead to a fairer, less corrupt and more just system of living....I mean it has to....it is holy ...ordained by Allah SWT for the complete flat earth.....how can there be any other truth?

Naseem - Islam is nothing more than endemic corruption itself. Mohammed's sunnah is a corruption and following it will only lead to anti-social practices. Mohammed was anti-social (psychopathic) in the tradition of all narcissitic cult leaders. No rules for men applied to that man. See? That in itself is a corruption.

Islam is a corruption on human nature. It opposes many good things of that nature so that it can control and dominate ( womens, tribes, other civilizations and so on) Look at the historic example of your own people. It's all about Submission that is true but not to the will of Allah. Allah is Mohammed's slave - not the other way around. Look at how Allah comes to Mohammed's rescue every time. Ayesha was a little girl, but had the understanding to see it, why can't the rest of you? Ayesha stayed with it because she benefitted greatly from the charade.

The rest of you womens don't benefit. Allah TNT is a plague on your future and will lead to more of the same. Allah TNT is Mohammed's slave - read the Qur'an if you don't see it yet. Put the words of Allah TNT into context... what problem did Mohammed have at the time? It's magic!!!!!

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at June 5, 2007 10:49 AM

Darcy,

So just because I'm Muslim, you choose to call me "barbarian"? I DO see hate on this website and I'm sure that not even YOU can deny that. Many people who post here HATE Islam and Muslims. You insult the name of God, you insult the Prophet, you use racial slurs (as for the person who commented on my experiences and encounters with prejudice and racist individuals, I was referring to things I've experienced in the outside world) - how is that not hate?

If you really read my posts and responded to everything I said, you would see that I'm not here to "order" you around, as you put it, but to help educate you about what Islam is really about. I just think it's very regressive of you to be an American or westerner and be so intolerant of another group of people. The majority of Muslims aren't going to blow up a building, they are peaceful and law abiding people who are raising families. What are you opinions about them?

You are seeing things in my comments that aren't there. When I talk about Love and Peace, you see words like "Hate" and "violence." Why? If you are only going to rely on the news, especially FOX news, then you're always going to believe Muslims are bad people. There are many Christians and Jews out there who are only "Christian" and "Jewish" by name - the same goes for Muslims. Do not blame Islam for the actions of a very small minority. This is why I constantly encourage you people to meet Muslims and befriend Muslims - I've seen people like yourselves change, and they initially hated Islam and Muslims! So there is hope, you can change, there is goodness in your hearts, becuase we were all created by God, and there is Love within us all.

By the way, someone made a comment earlier about me using the word "God" instead of "Allah", and suggested that "Allah" only be used when referring to Islam. Well, let me give you a quick lesson on language. If you were an Arabic speaking Christian, you would call God "Allah" too. "Allah" is the Arabic translation for "God." If you read the Arabic translation of the Bible, you will see the word "Allah" in it. So when you insult the name of Allah, you are pretty much insulting God's name, thefore it exposes your ignorance and lack of education. If you don't like the Arabic language, I think it would also be important for you to know that the language of Jesus, ARAMAIC, has a word for God that is strikingly similar to the Arabic word for God. That word is "ALLAHA". So when you say things like "Allaballawallah" or other insults, just remember that your Prophets were also Middle-Eastern and spoke in a foreign tongue.

Allaha Natarak (Aramaic for "May God guide you")

~JehanZeb~

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 5, 2007 11:30 AM

JehanZeb

I responded directly to your comments. No response from you, though. Why?

Posted by: PMK at June 5, 2007 12:00 PM

~JehanZeb~,

Just a gentle reminder, that the language ARAMAIC, which Jesus did speak was the language that was spoken on the street in the time of Jesus. In the worship services of the Jewish synogouge and the main temple in Jerusalem, it was still the Hebrew, which by that time was only being used in the Jewish places of worship. Take this as a bit of education in Bible History.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 5, 2007 12:00 PM

~JehanZeb~

You many want to read why other Muslims have decided to leave Islam. Check out this website written BY Muslims -- FOR Muslims: http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 12:06 PM

Assalamau Laikum JehanZeb~

It is good to see another one from the ummah to help eduacate the infedel.

I have been giving dawa here for nearly 4 years now ...I am an Ahmadi Muslima living in Lahore.

I don't think that I have managed to help anyone to the point of reciting the sahada ...but at least the kaffur talk and maybe some have got close...but who can know the way of Allah SWT.

I have spoken to the kaffur about of the merits of Ahmadi Islam...it's peaceful nature...but in return I always get asked about the dreaded hudood laws in Pak....and what religion I put on passport form.

What is your opinion on this...If I believe in Allah SWT like I do...why should I be treated as a secondary citizen in my beloved Pak?

As an Ahmadi one has always to be aware of saying who you are...for you cannot know whether you are talking to a sunni or a shia.

Who are you Jehan...are you sunni?

I know it is hard to admit on a public forum...but there are nasties who commit crimes...in the name of our religion...Jehan...to deny this is untruthful...and that is against Islam....so I admit to this...and in my own way of showing my displeasure...I sometikmes skip violent suras....have you ever thought of doing this Jehan?...or do you think I blespheme in this regard...I would like to hear you opinion on this.

Posted by: Naseem at June 5, 2007 12:06 PM

"In this mix, the truth is that Tribal loyalties are much stronger than political parties....locals care little for other regions...and family loyalties are the strongest."

Naseem,
Can you please answer two questions?

1. If locals care little for other regions doesn't that negate the message of Islam? Why haven't all Muslims discounted tribal loyalties when dealing with other Muslims? Aren't you all part of one nation?

2. If locals care little for other regions then why are so many in the West? Is this a Pakistani trait only? Pakistanis continue to migrate to Britain. Why go there at all if tribal loyalties are the most important?

PMK

Posted by: PMK at June 5, 2007 12:07 PM

Naseem --

You said, "but at least the kaffur talk and maybe some have got close".

Who on earth are you talking about? Who on JW has come "close" to converting to Islam? No one!

I for one think that your prophet, Muhammad, is a FALSE PROPHET; and that your allah is "NOT" the One True God.

Sorry, but I can't think of anyone on this forum that has grown closer to allah because of your efforts. If anything, you are our resident poster child for why we would never convert to Islam.

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 12:17 PM

Naseem --

On a previous thread, you had asked some questions about Christianity, and you were hoping for some answers. I answered those questions by directing you to a website that addressed each and every one of your "hard" questions -- and the website answered them quite well.

Did you see my that post of mine? Because you never acknowledged that you read it.

So in case you missed it, and if you're genuinely curious about the answers, then click on the link below; and on the left-hand column click on a particular topic for the answers to ALL of your questions:

http://www.answers-to-muslims.com/

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 12:26 PM

Assalamau Laikum PMK,

If locals care little for other regions doesn't that negate the message of Islam?

NO...because the message of Islam is consistent over all regions....no introspection...no questions....simply belief...all are slaves to Allah SWT...such is the power of Islam.

Why haven't all Muslims discounted tribal loyalties when dealing with other Muslims? Aren't you all part of one nation?

Here is the order of importance for muslims to aid your understanding:

1) Family

You will find many muslims very keen to keep the blood line pure...e.g. the Syeds' in particular will only want to marry other syeds...almost to the point or not marrying at all.

Peoples in the UK/Amerike will marry cousing from Pak rather than marry ANO muslim in the said country...simply to get another family member across. Family is all important...sometimes unfortunately leading to "honour" martyers.

2) Tribal

Over generation a clan will have lived in the same area. This is why for example it is so difficult to patrol the Pak border with Afgan. Their tribe has been living in that area for generations...so where does the "border" come into play...who are the Amerike to ask for such an alien concept like a border to us?

3) Region

Stong Familes within the said tribe leads to strength in that region...particularily where there are fertile lands, stong camels, water and copious dhimmi to help with work ...this is why a region becomes important to us.

4) Ummah

Obvioulsy, there are limits to regions...other tribes are entitled to their patch ...just as we are...but what if an alien power wants your patch...and then your other tribes patch....well in that case we'll pull together to see of the alien.

Obviously when you put all this together..and get Islam...and Allah's SWT flat earth policy.

I hope this helps... I have tried to answer honestly...

Posted by: Naseem at June 5, 2007 12:29 PM

Assalamau Laikum Champ,

You ask Naseem --

Who on earth are you talking about? Who on JW has come "close" to converting to Islam? No one!

Oh I don't know ...American in Germany...I think she quite got to like Islam.

Posted by: Naseem at June 5, 2007 12:35 PM

Assalamau Laikum Champ...

Also I have read a few times where the pig farmer has shown admiration for Islam saying it was "nearly perfect".

Posted by: Naseem at June 5, 2007 12:52 PM

Naseem --

I am in constant contact with AIG via e-mail, and I can assure you, she does NOT "like Islam", and you know it. Very funny, Naseem.

Anyone else?

No?

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 12:54 PM

Anyone have a straight jacket?

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 12:56 PM

Newsflash to Jehanzeb - I saw that you commented to me. Sorry, but due to your insults and rudeness and general creepiness from yesterday, I don't read you anymore. So, don't bother to write, 'k?

I did read your first sentence. Yes, Muslims are barbarians. Since and including 9/11, Muslims worldwide have been behaving non-stop barbarically. In Sudan right now Arab Muslims are genociding Christian and animist Africans.
In Thailand you are murdering Buddhists, over 2,000 murdered so far.

Just who do you people think you are? I will tell you: Barbarians.

So long, Jehanzeb. Don't bother to write because I won't be reading you.

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 12:57 PM

It's funny Nasseem being friendly to Zeb, isn't it?

Just think, if she was his sister and he or their family thought she wasn't behaving properly, he'd murder her in an honor killing with no remorse!

Gotta love those Islamic honor killings, eh, Nasseem! Better not do anything wrong, or your own family will murder you!

Such Islamic love and care for females! LOL

HONOR KILLINGS = MALE MUSLIM BARBARIANS

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 1:05 PM

~JehanZeb~

Your last post is so MISDIRECTED, it isn't even funny! The folks on JW ARE NOT the ones you should be "educating". You should be directing your efforts towards change by educating those WITHIN YOUR OWN RELIGION....HELLO!!!!!!

You just don't get it do you? How can you be so obtuse!!

Stop attacking us on JW, and aim your verbal arrows at the terrorists!! The only reason you won't do that is because you SUPPORT TERRORISM, because nothing else makes sense.

And if it means you and your family will have to leave Islam to do it, then so be it, leave Islam. But don't come on here with your BS and expect us to change OUR OPINION of the evil that is so obvious, and so prevelant within Islam -- evil that you clearly support.

Yes, you support terrorism, because you won't target the real enemy -- those within your own religion.

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 1:16 PM

You are right, "champ," that the Muslims are Godless. What they have is a Moon-o-theistic pagan religion, as "allah" is the Southern Arabian pagan Moon god of pre-Islamic times.

That's why Muhammed, their false prophet, didn't have to explain who "Allah" was, as they already worshipped "allah." Muhammed elevated "allah" to a capital A, but it's all a lie. No wonder they have no guidance as to doing GOOD - they have no God. And so they mass-murder on a continuous basis.

Doesn't their pomposity when they worship a pagan Moon God just make you LOL!

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 1:20 PM

Oh, and Nasseem, esp. since you live in Pakistan. Be careful not to reject any suitors or you'll get acid - ACID - thrown on you.

And nothing will happen to the Perp because as a female you have ABSOLUTELY NO RECOURSE TO ANY JUSTICE. Instead, your family will just hide you in shame (if they don't kill you). Gee, isn't being a Muslima fabulous?

ACID-THROWING MUSLIM MALES = BARBARIANS

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 1:29 PM

Something else, Nasseem. Did you have to submit to the FGM thingy - you know, FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION?

There's a word that describes patriarchal, misogynist societies that cut out the sexual organs of females - BARBARIC.

And as everybody in the world knows, Islamic woman-hating societies commit this atrocity against females.

How utterly revolting and reprehensible.

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 1:37 PM

Darcy --

Yes, I completely agree with you, and allah is not the God of the Bible, check this out:

http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_allah_not_God.html

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 2:09 PM

Oh, that's a good one, champ, thanks. I'm going to copy it.

"allah" the Southern Arabian pre-Islamic pagan Moon god had no son - 3 daughters by the Sun goddess (chuckle - feel like we're discussing Greek mythology!).

Whereas, as your article clearly states - the God of The Bible HAS A SON.

Therefore, and for other reasons as well, no, "Allah" is NOT our God! (Thank God!!!)

And thanks again for that great link, champ. I appreciate your taking the time to do that.

Newsflash: The Bible came first, you Muslim mindless sheep. Your johnny-come-lately false prophet that Jesus warned us about in Matthew HAS NO CREDIBILITY. May I add, he's a flim-flam man.

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 2:21 PM

a flim-flam man.

LOL!!!

Posted by: champ at June 5, 2007 2:42 PM

Naseem - you never answer me, but think about this:

why does allah consistently back up Mohammed when a conflict comes up? Who's driving the agenda? Who is in a problem that needs solving?

Allah changes his commands so that Mohammed can do what he likes. Even Ayesha noticed this when she said, "I see your Allah quickly grants you your desire."

You are being deceived by a psychopath 1,400 years later because you believe his stories of the monster in the closet. Free yourself.

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at June 5, 2007 3:14 PM

JehanZeb~
Make friends with moslems?
http://basharee.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/condemning-hate-makes-me-a-hateful-person/
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm

Posted by: interestinconundrum at June 5, 2007 3:56 PM

Good read...
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60526.htm

Posted by: interestinconundrum at June 5, 2007 4:17 PM

JehanZeb

Answer Naseem. Or Naseem, visit JehanZeb on the Iran thread here

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 5, 2007 4:40 PM

Oh, and not to mention, but I will anyway -

Where was your "Allah" during the "Six Days in June, 1967" when THE JEWS TOTALLY KICKED YOUR BUTT, LOL!!!!!

You Go, Moshe Dayan!!!! (Poor misguided Nasser and Hussein, who conspired to LIE about why they were defeated, and the Israelies (i.e. Jews) TAPED that taqiyya conversation)!!!!! So - LOL!

TAPED the taqiyya conversation! For all the world to hear!!!

Muslims - Mindless Sheep (no offense to Sheep, the innocent sweet animals).

Hi Jehan, you mindless idiot!

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 5:22 PM

JEWS TOTALLY KICKED YOUR BUTT, JEHAN!

(Where was "Allah," LOL!)

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 5:26 PM

You see how you mention FACTS such as honor killings, acid-throwing, and FGM - and, the arrogant Muslims all disappear! It's like David Copperfield! GoodBye!!!

Barbarians.

Posted by: darcy at June 5, 2007 5:30 PM

This thread is about to run out of steam but I will change this about my God/Allah comment: So that there is no mistake, I'm talking about Jehova (an Anglicized version of Yahweh). With that out of the way, Jehovah and Allah are not the same god - period, end of debate.

Naseem has been a commenter for as long as, or longer than, I have been at it. JehanZ must be the designated hitter, and he has struck out more than three times.

Posted by: Pelayo at June 5, 2007 8:27 PM

"Over generation a clan will have lived in the same area. This is why for example it is so difficult to patrol the Pak border with Afgan. Their tribe has been living in that area for generations...so where does the "border" come into play...who are the Amerike to ask for such an alien concept like a border to us?"

Naseem,
Thanks for the education. I think you answered another question for me above. Where does the "border" come into play? I've always wanted to ask someone who knows that border area: are the Afghans and Pakistanis in that area part of the same tribe?

Along those lines: if Muslims will not recognize a border and will not observe the international system then how can they ever be allowed to travel more than ten miles from where they were born? Why should anyone with such views ever be allowed to cross an international border?

If the tribe is more important than the ummah, that explains how much violence is done by Muslims on their fellow Muslims. So much for the tenets of Islam.

Regarding the so-called tribal areas that border Afghanistan: the entire area should be cordoned off. I know it's a very rugged, almost impassable area but if the inhabitants have trails and roads that they use it would not be difficult to block them and prevent anyone from exiting the area. If tribal affiliation is all that matters then the people can stay with their tribe and no one should be allowed to enter or leave the area.

Posted by: PMK at June 5, 2007 8:34 PM

You insult the name of God, you insult the Prophet

And? So? So what? What's that to the people on this forum? They're not muslim, and they don't need to respect your religion any more than islam respects any other religion, or secularism. To hell with your ridiculous god. To hell with Mohammed the madman. What is your concern with this? What would you do if someone insulted this idiot allah or the gibbering Mohammed to your face? What is the appropriate action, do you think?

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 7, 2007 1:50 AM

it is holy ...ordained by Allah SWT for the complete flat earth.....how can there be any other truth?

Humanism, compassion and equality strike me as far more real and fair truths for mankind than shahada, dhimmitude and sharia. The proper question is how islamic jurisprudence can be a truth for anyone.

Prophet Geoff

Posted by: Geoff at June 7, 2007 1:53 AM

Just read about the man who kills his brother because he was a bad Muslim. Goes to show that the God of the Jews and Christians is NOT the same God that the Muslims believe.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at June 7, 2007 4:38 PM