"Islam is the religion of peace, promotes respect and categorically negates tendency of extremism and intolerance."

Please tell that to all the Muslimas across the world who will never know an orgasm.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at June 8, 2007 11:32 AM

Religion of Peace…Tolerance…Mutual Respect…

Deep breath, hold it… hold it…

Turning red…

2:10 Disbelievers are diseased.
2:99 Disbelievers are evil people.
2:104 For disbelievers is a painful doom.
2:171 Disbelievers are deaf, dumb, and blind.
3:28 Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference of believers.
3:73 Don't believe anyone who is not a Muslim.
3:48 Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you.
4:89 Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them.
4:63 Oppose those who refuse to follow Muhammad.
4:101The disbelievers are an open enemy to you.
4:144 Do not choose disbelievers as friends.
5:51 Don't take Jews or Christians for friends. If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them.
5:51 Jews and Christians are losers.
5:60 Allah turned unbelievers into apes and swine.
5:59 Jews and Christians are evil people.
5:57 Don't choose Jews, Christians, or disbelievers as guardians.
6:106 Stay away from disbelievers.
8:55 The worst beasts in Allah's sight are the disbelievers.
9:5 Slay the disbelievers wherever you find them.
9:28 Disbelievers are unclean.
9:30 Christians and Jews are perverts. Allah himself fights against them.

Ahh, much better. Link for context:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Posted by: pez at June 8, 2007 11:34 AM

Religion of peace!? My religion is the religion of Love!
Where Love is, God is. He that dwelleth in God. GOD IS LOVE.

Posted by: MZ at June 8, 2007 11:39 AM

Reading what moslems have to say requires one to closely parse what was said.

'categorically negates tendency of extremism and intolerance"...what does that actually mean?

The whole last paragraph seems to be a call to arms if you ask me.

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at June 8, 2007 11:53 AM

It's not so much the "Hazrat Muhammad" but the possibility of their being lots of would-be "Hazmat Muhammads" that worries us, the Infidels.

Posted by: Hugh at June 8, 2007 12:01 PM

Television propaganda, racial profiling, growing misconceptions,
They vilify my religion, my way of life
Don’t they know
Islam means submission?

Your eyes judge me by what they see
Simple ‘differences’, colored skin
You fail to look inside
How can you see me?

Your ears trigger a stereotype in your mind
When I say I am Muslim
Then you associate me with Terror
When I speak of Palestine

Your heart becomes clouded like dark skies
When you shout ‘Raghead’ ‘Camel Jockey’
‘Barbarian,’ ‘Terrorist,’ ‘Osama’
Are these the words you use for the Iraqis who die?

Your tongue commits an ignorant crime
When you accuse my Veiled Sisters of being oppressed
Inner beauty and liberty can not be seen
Like the Virgin Mary, they submit to the Divine

Your fingers point and blame Muslims in fear
Categorizing all of us as “Islamic Fundamentalists”
Do you know of the hundreds
Who die in Palestine, Afghanistan, and Kashmir?

Your hands become prisoners of Hate
When you vandalize our Mosques
Is this how you represent
Your freedom in the United States?

Will you always be plagued by lies
And accept what you see on the news?
Or will you, for once, listen to our voices?
Instead of suffocating our cries?

I am a Muslim, I am a Human Being
I have dreams and aspirations like you
I am part of this country, this is my home
Islam is Love, Islam is Peace, Islam is True

I pray to have a family one day, Lord willing
Will I have to worry about my children facing intolerance and hatred?
Will I have to worry about my children being treated differently?
We can change the world and bring peace, let’s start by believing!

Let’s do it for God
Let’s dismantle the wall of separation
Let’s do it for brotherhood and sisterhood
Let’s do it for our children of tomorrow

When your mind is able to unlock the Secret
And become aware
Of the Place where all are One
I will meet you there

~JehanZeb~

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 8, 2007 12:03 PM

I am a Muslim, I am a Human Being

I'm a bitch, I'm a lover I'm a child, I'm a mother I'm a sinner, I'm a saint I do not feel ashamed I'm your hell, I'm your dream I'm nothing in between You know you wouldn't want it any other way...

[with apologies to Meredith Brookes]

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 8, 2007 12:21 PM

I am a Muslim, I am a Human Being

I'm a bitch, I'm a lover
I'm a child, I'm a mother
I'm a sinner, I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell, I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
You know you wouldn't want it any other way...

[with apologies to Meredith Brookes, and for not previewing]

Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 8, 2007 12:23 PM

Jehan Zeb,

Read Hirsi Ali's book. She's a former Muslim who lived that life who has exposed what it's really like to be a Muslim. She doesn't want to live like you and neither do we.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at June 8, 2007 12:27 PM

@pez:

Nice roundup.

Posted by: Godefroi at June 8, 2007 12:27 PM

I'm not surprised that you can't write poetry yourself, Infidel Pride.

You look at my words and you are in disbelief because there is no such thing as a good Muslim in your mind.

It's pointless to talk to you.

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 8, 2007 12:28 PM

Hirsi Ali lies about Islam in her book. Just because she went through some horrible things in her life does not mean that Islam is to blame. Anyone who wants to write negatively about Islam will easily get their work published, especially a former Muslim.

The sand thing, Isabella, is that you don't even want to hear the true Muslim voice. But you will gladly listen to the voice of extremists or ex-Muslims. That shows prejudice.

I'm going to Friday prayer now :)

Salaam
(it means Peace)

~JehanZeb~

Posted by: ~JehanZeb~ at June 8, 2007 12:37 PM

"Hazrat Muhammad"?

Perhaps he means Hazardous Rat Muhammad.

Posted by: Dsinc at June 8, 2007 12:39 PM

I'm not surprised that you can't write poetry yourself, Infidel Pride.

Oh, so that's what it is?

I'm going to Friday prayer now :)

Hope there are no Infidels in the vicinity when you are on your way out. ;-> Posted by: Infidel Pride at June 8, 2007 12:50 PM

JehanZeb, nice poem.

"Don’t they know Islam means submission" -- so? Those Muslims who insist that I or anyone else submit to Allah are oppressors.

"When you shout ‘Raghead’ ‘Camel Jockey’ ‘Barbarian,’ ‘Terrorist,’ ‘Osama’" -- here you paint all non-Muslims with one brush. Shame on you.

"Like the Virgin Mary, they submit to the Divine" -- but Mary did not have to be hidden under a black blanket to do so.

"Your fingers point and blame Muslims in fear Categorizing all of us as “Islamic Fundamentalists" -- really? How are you categorizing all of US?

"Your hands become prisoners of Hate When you vandalize our Mosques" -- are you a victim? What about the synagogues in Chicago? or Detroit? or all the THOUSANDS of churches burned or otherwise destroyed by invading Muslim armies?

"Will you always be plagued by lies...Or will you, for once, listen to our voices?" -- Is yours really the voice of truth? How do you square the comments of Khalid Maqbool with those quotations by Pez?

"I am a Muslim, I am a Human Being I have dreams and aspirations like you" -- on that, at least, we agree.

"Islam is Love, Islam is Peace, Islam is True" -- didn't you just say that Islam is Submission? Do you have a 'scriptural' authority that says Islam IS love?

"Will I have to worry about my children facing intolerance and hatred? Will I have to worry about my children being treated differently?" -- will we have to worry about ours facing the humiliation and persecution congruent with being dhimmi?

"We can change the world and bring peace, let’s start by believing!" -- in what? Allah - the lord of "kill all unbelievers"? What kind of peace is that?

"When your mind is able to unlock the Secret And become aware Of the Place where all are One I will meet you there" -- no, I'm afraid not. I've unlocked it, and it doesn't lead to where you're going.

Posted by: Godefroi at June 8, 2007 12:51 PM

Your eyes judge me by what they see
Simple ‘differences’, ...

~JehanZeb~

****

You poor baby. Sadly, it's oh, so true. If you dress outside the mainstream of America, if you prefer the company of members of your faith, if you follow your faith seriously, if you eschew modernity, if you believe in traditional roles for men and women, if you insist women cover their hair in public, if your men have beards -- those nasty Americans assume you must be a terrorist. And it isn't just Muslims who suffer. Why, look at the Amish in those funny clothes, with their bonnets and beards and their accented English. Confess, everyone. How many times has an Amish man driven by, and you've looked suspiciously at him, wondering what he was saying about America in that language of his, wondering if he was plotting to attack you with a buggy bomb?

And just because you can't see past simple 'differences.'

Posted by: CJ at June 8, 2007 1:22 PM

Excellent, CJ. And so true. Something about much of what he says just doesn't make sense.

I don't hate anybody. Disagreement is not hate. Not wanting to give a person a pass on things continually omitted in his rhetoric is not hate. Let's use the intelligence God gave us here.

When "moderate, loving, peaceful" muslims begin a huge, vociferous outcry against those hijacking their religion of peace, then I will believe what they say. Otherwise, they are themselves deluded, and trying their best to delude the rest of us.

Posted by: Stand fast in the liberty at June 8, 2007 1:34 PM

Running rings around dimwitted Islamic apologists is always a worthwhile pastime, so I'll join the fray.

Let's see...

Television propaganda, racial profiling, growing misconceptions, They vilify my religion, my way of life Don’t they know Islam means submission?

At least here, Jehan has the honesty to not peddle the "Islam means peace" line. Not that I can see what's so great about submission.

Your eyes judge me by what they see Simple ‘differences’, colored skin

Judging people by their skin color? You mean, like Darfur?

Your ears trigger a stereotype in your mind When I say I am Muslim Then you associate me with Terror When I speak of Palestine

Because Muslims never harbor any stereotypes about other people, especially about Israel. Riiight.

Your heart becomes clouded like dark skies When you shout ‘Raghead’ ‘Camel Jockey’ ‘Barbarian,’ ‘Terrorist,’ ‘Osama’

This one is just too bloody priceless.

The Koran (Pickthall translation) says that disbelievers (non-Muslims) are “worst of created beings” (98:6), are “miscreants” (2:99, 24:55), are the worst beasts in Allah’s sight (8:22, 8:55); (some Christians and/or Jews were) turned into “apes and/or pigs” (2:65-66, 5:58-60, 7:166); are like frightened donkeys chased by a lion (74:50-51); are worse than cattle (7:179); are like dogs (7:176); they (idolators) are unclean (9:28); “evil” is upon them (16:27), evil (2:91, 2:99); “wicked” (80:42, 9:125); the “wrong-doers” (42:45, 2:254, 5:45); evil-doers (42:44); evil-livers (5:59); they have no good in them (8:23); are “guilty” for disbelieving (45:31, 83:29); on the side of Satan and are fighting for him (4:76-77); of the party of Satan (58:19); Allah assigns them devils for protecting friends (7:27); they choose devils for protecting friends (7:30); are partisan against Allah (25:55); are the “enemy” and “perverted” (63:4); have disgraced lives (22:9); are hypocrites (4:61); have a “diseased heart” (2:10, 9:125); are ill (84:20); are deaf, dumb, and blind, and have no sense (2:171); deaf and dumb and in darkness, Allah sends them astray (6:39); they have no sense (5:103, 10:100); a folk who do not understand (9:127); their fathers were unintelligent and had no knowledge or guidance (2:170, 5:104); are “a folk without intelligence”/ “most ignorant” (8:65, 6:111); losers who are deceived by Allah (2:6), and deceived by Satan (4:60); Allah sends devils against them to make them do evil (19:83); Allah cursed them for their unbelief (2:88-89), liars/they lie (2:10, 4:50, 9:42, 16:39, 16:105, 59:11), “losers” (5:53, 7:178-179); foolish and liars (7:66), liars and losers (58:18-19), in false pride and schism (38:2), among the lowest (58:20); the lowest of the low (95:4-6).

Your tongue commits an ignorant crime When you accuse my Veiled Sisters of being oppressed

Ah, but of course! Who are we to say the Qur'an speaks ill of women? After all, it only says:

1. Likens a woman to a field (tilth), to be used by a man as he wills: "Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will" (2:223);
2. Declares that a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man: "Get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her" (2:282);
3. Allows men to marry up to four wives, and have sex with slave girls also: "If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice" (4:3);
4. Rules that a son's inheritance should be twice the size of that of a daughter: "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your children's (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females" (4:11);
5. Tells husbands to beat their disobedient wives: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them" (4:34).

(thanks to Spencer)

Do you know of the hundreds
Who die in Palestine, Afghanistan, and Kashmir?

The ones who die at the hands of Muslims (often, as in their fellow Muslims)? For some reason, a lot of people don't like to talk about that.

Your hands become prisoners of Hate
When you vandalize our Mosques
Is this how you represent
Your freedom in the United States?

Whereas you show your Islamic love and tolerance by bombing synagogues, but wouldn't you rather talk about mere vandalism of mosques? (Hint: The bacon-in-Quran thing doesn't count.)

Will you always be plagued by lies And accept what you see on the news? Or will you, for once, listen to our voices?

I'll pass.

I am a Muslim, I am a Human Being I have dreams and aspirations like you I am part of this country, this is my home Islam is Love, Islam is Peace, Islam is True

"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength."

I hear IngSoc is looking for talented propagandists. Why don't you send in your resume?

I pray to have a family one day, Lord willing Will I have to worry about my children facing intolerance and hatred?

Yes.

Will I have to worry about my children being treated differently?

Yes, most likely.

We can change the world and bring peace, let’s start by believing!

The day that universal belief in Islam brings peace is the day I spontaneously mutate into a three-headed hamster.

Bottom line: If you're looking for someone to lecture on intolerance and hatred, you're barking up the wrong tree. Your time would be better spent confronting the Tiny Minority of Extremists Who Have Hijacked A Peaceful Religion™ .

When your mind is able to unlock the Secret And become aware Of the Place where all are One I will meet you there

Good luck with that. No, really. I wish you the best in your personal faith.

Just don't project the behavior of your co-religionists on us.

Posted by: Audacity at June 8, 2007 1:43 PM

~Zeb~

I would like to continue our conversation from the other day where you responded to three of my questions.

My first question pertained to your position on Israel, which was designed to get at your core belief concerning Palestine/Israel; a core belief where all of your misunderstanding stems from, and since you did not acknowledge my reply to your three answers, then I can only assume you did not read them, so here is my reply from June 6th for you to review:

"~Zeb~

I'm not surprised by your response to my first question, and we will just have to agree to disagree about your comment of the "Jews brutal occupation of the Palestinians" -- because that is a lie! But I do agree that the Palestinians should have their own Palestinian state. But where?

One solution -- there is an enormous amount of space in the Middle East that the Palestinians could govern, as the Middle East certainly isn't lacking in real estate. And you may want to review this website that shows a map of the Middle East and gives a time-line of events, down to when the Jews RETURNED TO THEIR HOMELAND:

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

Your answer to question # 1 suggests you want the Jews to leave Israel, which I am NOT in support of, but I want to hear it from you -- since you were a little vague in your above answer. Do you want to see them leave? You said you don't want the Jews "killed off", as you put it, or for them to be "wiped off of the map". So what DO you want to see happen, because you didn't make that very clear?

As to other posters labeling you a "cult member", come on! This is Jihad Watch! Note the headlines posted on Jihad Watch! They expose the evil of Islam!

If you want to stick your head in the sand and focus on the Softer-Side-of-Islam then FINE -- but that isn't what JW is about. It's about telling the truth, and exposing the ugly side of Islam; so I'm afraid you won't get much support on this forum.

You remind me of the protective parent whose son is standing trial for murder; and you stand up in court and yell, "But Judge, he's a good boy, really he is! He's a good descent boy! I know he killed 20 people in cold blood, but please don't sentence him to death 'cause he's my boy!"

P.S. Zeb,

To further highlight my point that the Jews DID NOT " brutally occupy the Palestinians", and that this statement is in fact a bold-faced LIE, I have chosen to post a segment from the link that I've provided -- in case you don't have time to research this link. I think it's time that someone educate YOU on the subject:

Excerpt from link:

"Now for some facts about "occupation." Firstly, the Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians lost Gaza, the West Bank and Golan Heights (respectively) by participating in a failed attempt at genocide against the Children of Israel. Had Israel lost this 1967 defensive war, the Arab-Palestinians and their Arab allies would have raped, butchered or driven out every Israeli they could get their hands on and gobbled up all of Israel. Now, 35+ years later and despite the fact that Israel won a war BROUGHT UPON THEM, the Israelis are still willing to allow the Arab-Palestinians to have a state on much of the West Bank and Gaza if only they will stop sending their suicide/homicide bombers into the heart of Israel! (Talk about misplaced compassion!)

From 1948 to 1967, Egypt ruled Gaza, Syria ruled the Golan Heights, while Jordan ruled the West Bank. They could have set up independent Arab-Palestinian states in any or all of those territories, but they didn't even consider it. Instead, in 1967 they used the Golan Heights, Gaza and the West bank to launch a war that was unambiguously aimed at destroying Israel, which is how Israel came into possession of those territories in the first place."

Posted by: champ at June 6, 2007 1:49 PM"

Posted by: champ at June 8, 2007 2:15 PM

"Islam is the religion of peace, promotes respect and categorically negates tendency of extremism and intolerance"....from headline.

WHAT A LIE!!! NO GREATER LIE HAS EVER BEEN TOLD!!

It should state, "Islam is not the religion of peace, promotes extremism and intolerance, and categorically negates respect."

Posted by: champ at June 8, 2007 2:26 PM

"Hirsi Ali lies about Islam in her book. Just because she went through some horrible things in her life does not mean that Islam is to blame."

Please cite one example of a "lie" of Hirsi Ali about Islam, and show evidence that it is (a) false, and (b) not merely a mistake but a lie--intentional deception.

One of the "horrible things" that Hirsi Ali goes through is having to fear being killed by those Muslims who believe that critics of Islam must be put to death, or otherwise punished harshly. Most British Muslims, for example, believe that critics of Islam should be punished harshly. [source]

The standard penalty in Islamic law (according to all Sunni and Shia schools of jurisprudence) for criticizing Islam or Muhammad, is death. Many Muslims are quite willing to carry out this punishment against critics, which is why Hirsi Ali needs those security guards.

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at June 8, 2007 2:42 PM

JehanZeb,

My comment above quotes you and is directed to you.

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at June 8, 2007 2:45 PM

Khalid Maqbool has said that Islam is the religion of peace, promotes respect and categorically negates tendency of extremism and intolerance.

Yeah, and I'm Napoleon.

Posted by: traeh at June 8, 2007 3:07 PM

SONG OF THE KAFFIR
(dedicated to JehanZeb)

Jihadi propaganda, anti-semitism, metastasizing connections,
They vilify us infidels, our way of life
Don’t they know
We will never submit?
Your eyes are blinded and cannot see
Simply being a woman
Means you have to hide inside
How can you see the truth?
Your ears trigger a stereotype in your mind
When I say I am Jewish
Then you call me an Ape or a Pig
When I speak of my homeland Israel
Your eyes becomes clouded like dark skies
Then you shout: Jew, filthy Infidel, Kuffar
And you deny the Holocaust
Are these the words you use for the Jews and Christians who die?
Your tongue commits an ignorant crime
When you accuse my Jewish brothers and sisters of apehood.
YHWH, Jehovah is the God you will not name.
The Virgin Mary, you have defamed.
Your hands pull Jesus down from the cross.
Categorizing all of us as "Jesus Worshippers.”
Do you know of the millions
Who died from Muslims in Israel, India, Russia, Persia?
Your minds become prisoners of Hate
When you vandalize our Synagogues
Is this how you represent
Your god called allah?
Will you always be plagued by lies
And accept what you see on al-Jazeera?
Or will you, for once, listen to our voices?
Instead of suffocating our cries?
I am a Kaffir, I am a Human Being
I have dreams and aspirations like you
This is country, this is my home
Leave us alone. Go back home.
Your families are broods of lovelessness
Your biggest worry? Hubbie's other wives.
Will you care when your hubby tills his other fields?
You can change, just dump Islam.
Just do it for God
Dismantle the cult of hate and separation
Islam is anti-brotherhood anti-love.
Leave it for your children of tomorrow
When your mind is able to release the hate.

Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at June 8, 2007 3:14 PM

The standard penalty in Islamic law (according to all Sunni and Shia schools of jurisprudence) for criticizing Islam or Muhammad, is death. Many Muslims are quite willing to carry out this punishment against critics, which is why Hirsi Ali needs those security guards.

Which is why Westerners are fully within their rights to demand of Muslims that they explicitly forsake these aspects of Islam. If Muslims refuse to forswear the religious supremacism of Islam and the drive to spread Islamic theocracy all over the globe, Westerners are fully within their rights to put those Muslims under intensive surveillance and arrange to have them deported. I speak as someone who has absolutely no sympathy for racism or fascism, and some sympathy for multiculturalism. In fact my very hatred of fascism is what motivates me to speak in these terms about Islam. My anger that Islam is making multiculturalism unviable is what forces me to speak in these terms.

Posted by: traeh at June 8, 2007 3:18 PM

~Zeb~

You stated, "Hirsi Ali lies about Islam in her book. Just because she went through some horrible things in her life does not mean that Islam is to blame."

This insane statement has earned you the title of Ostrich-Man! Only instead of having your head stuck in the sand, your head is lodged up your.....

(this site is sensored)

Posted by: champ at June 8, 2007 3:21 PM

He said "we see that Muslims are in trouble in Palestine, Kashmir and elsewhere in the World" adding dire need of the hour for the Muslims to reconcile their acts and deeds following the real teachings of Prophet Hazrat Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him)...."

hhmmmm, his 'real' teachings? What does that mean? It certainly doesn't inspire muslims to get themselves together, but instead it inspires them to use Mickey Mouses as terrorists to teach their children to blow people up, or to film their children to say they hate Jews when they are able to talk, dance and ulalate when their children do indeed blow themselves up, etc.

Their biggest department in their Universities isn't in science, math, history, engineering, or even in technical things like computers/programming, mechanics etc but instead it is in the study of the koran. If I were to read the koran more than I have - I would go nuts - oh, maybe I hit upon something here!

If they want to convince they are peaceful - then prove it. It is about time the masses of 'moderates' stop the radicals instead of letting them live among them and letting them roam free. It would be like us letting serial killers roam our streets and just ignoring them.

Posted by: R_not at June 8, 2007 3:21 PM

Ynkedoodl2
Nice poem

Posted by: traeh at June 8, 2007 3:21 PM

Zeb give up the qat...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at June 8, 2007 3:39 PM

CJ,

Interesting you should mention the Amish. I attended college in a part of my state that was Amish country.You'd see the Amish in their 1800s clothes and riding around in their horse and buggy. But no one worries about or bothers the Amish because unlike Muslims the Amish really are peaceful.While the Amish reject moderity they are willing to live and let live.They don't feel the need to force their religion and their culture on the rest of society. They are also non-violent. It's unthinkable that an Amish man would wear a hidden suicide bomb belt and blow up teenagers in a pizza parlor for the "crime" of daring to be different.While everyone knows that Muslims including some American Muslims have no problem with suicide bomb attacks.That could be why the Amish are respected while Muslims are not.

Posted by: Roxane at June 8, 2007 3:58 PM

We judge their actions not what they say. They can twist and squirm, stick their heads up their lowest bodily orifices, and we still view them as a murderous bunch, intent on making us respect them prior to forcing us to submit.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at June 8, 2007 10:38 PM

"Islam is the religion of peace, promotes respect and categorically negates tendency of extremism and intolerance"

Ya? On what planet?

Posted by: Prickzilla at June 8, 2007 11:45 PM

"The sand thing, Isabella, is that you don't even want to hear the true Muslim voice. But you will gladly listen to the voice of extremists or ex-Muslims. That shows prejudice."

I didn't think J.Z. would let us get through the whole day without calling Hirsi Ali a liar. But which part is she lying about? The part where her father forced her to marry a man she thought was a completely unschooled idiot? The part where her father cursed her to hell after she was able to escape? The part where her grandmother waited until her father was in prison and her mom was off trying to support the family and then she genitally mutilated all three of her grandchildren, and, for what?

Maybe she lied about warning Theo Van Gogh about making a movie about the oppression of women in Islam, but dang if a Muslim didn't shoot him, stab him, cut part of his head off and pin a threatening note to his chest with a knife anyway. Maybe she's lying about all those death threats from peaceful Muslims when she has speaking engagements. Or maybe she wasn't ever elected to parliament in the Netherlands.

Come on J.Z., you know you'd love to shut her up. But which part of what she says isn't "the true Muslim voice?" And which part, if any, of her book have you read? Yeah, I didn't think so.

Prejudice, indeed. You wish.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at June 8, 2007 11:56 PM

From another thread:

"Here's an interesting excerpt from an article by Andrew Walden at frontpagemagazine.com:

The attitude of individual Muslims to the question of whether the time for taking power is now can be seen in the results of polling on the acceptability of suicide attacks. The results from a 2006 Pew survey released May 22 are directly proportional to the amount of power Islamists have over a country.

In the US, spearheading the War on Terror, 13 percent of Muslims say suicide attacks to defend Islam can be justified. Among the under-30 crowd, 26 percent of young Muslims say suicide attacks can be justified including 2 percent who say suicide attacks can “often” be justified.

In the UK, America’s closest ally, about 24 percent of Muslims consider suicide attacks justifiable. In France, which has allied itself to Islamic regimes and opposed the US-led liberation of Iraq from French business partner Saddam Hussein, 35 percent of Muslims see suicide attacks as justifiable. In countries ruled by Islam often over 50 percent consider suicide attacks justifiable. In Nigeria, where northern Muslims are warring for power over the southern Christians, 69 percent say suicide attacks are justifiable."

Posted by: traeh at June 8, 2007 8:57 PM

So J.Z. would you say the above statistics are a) big fat lies or b) the true Muslim voice?

BTW, please explain "the sand thing".

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at June 9, 2007 12:08 AM

ALLAH – A PERFECT GOD – A GOD OF REASON
THE CREATION OF A NEW MODERN ISLAM

Islam was created as a closed, rigid, fundamentalist, totalitarian system. The two main tenets of this totalitarianism was the use of terror to maintain this dictatorial system and the subrogation of women. Anyone who ties to reform this religion can be killed. Anyone who seeks to leave the religion can be killed. All unbelievers must either submit, pay a tax, or be murdered as a religious duty.

Islam needs to be reformed and new ideas need to be incorporated for fresh thinking and survival. Reformation will be resisted by Islamic fundamentalists with violence and terrorism. For the future of our freedom, peace and life this reform must be undertaken. A reformed Islam will have more influence and acceptance around the world.

The Reform of Islam is a life and death issue for civilization.

The greatest danger mankind faces is the smuggling of a nuclear weapon by an Islamic Fundamentalist into a major western city killing millions in the name of and to the greater glory of ALLAH. If the hateful teachings (listed below) are not removed from Islam this is the disaster that will destroy civilization as we know it. It will dramatically change human history forever. The stakes are that high.
All peace loving Muslims who believe in the teachings of an ALLAH of PEACE AND LOVE must stand up and demand the reform of Islam. If Islam is reformed then it will no longer be a totalitarian system on a par with Nazism, Communism and Fascism. To take man’s natural Concept of ALLAH, a conception of Peace and Love and Goodness, an all Wise, all Loving ALLAH for all mankind, and turn ALLAH - by bastardizing his teachings into a murderous ALLAH of hate, death and destruction, for the creation of a totalitarian system is one of the greatest sins that can be committed against ALLAH.

In order to reform Islam we must start with the following declaration:

ALLAH AS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE - THE CREATOR OF ALL LIVING THINGS IS PERFECT.

ALLAH AS A PERFECT GOD - IS A GOD OF REASON
ALL TEACHINGS OF ALLAH - A PERFECT GOD - MUST BE PERFECT

ANY WRITINGS IN ANY RELIGIOUS TEXT THAT ARE NOT PERFECT ARE NOT THE TEACHINGS OF ALLAH BUT THE TEACHINGS OF MAN

AS A PERFECT GOD - ALLAH IS ALL PEACE AND LOVE AND GOODNESS

ALL MANKIND ARE THE CHILDREN OF ALLAH

ALL CHILDREN OF ALLAH ARE CREATED EQUAL AND THEIR LIVES ARE SACRED TO ALLAH

ALLAH IS NOT AN IRRATIONAL BEING. IF ALLAH IS IRRATIONAL THEN ALLAH IS NOT PERFECT AND THEREFORE SINCE ALLAH CANNOT BE IMPERFECT AN IRRATIONAL ALLAH IS NOT GOD

The above lays the intellectual framework for an Islamic Reformation.

All teachings in the Koran and all Islamic texts (written or verbal) that are not PERFECT are not the teachings of ALLAH - A PERFECT GOD - A GOD OF REASON but the teachings of man. This means that all teachings recorded in the Koran and all other Islamic texts, revelations, writings, sayings, fatwas of murder, killing, death and destruction, violence, hate, suicide bombers, violent jihad, terrorism, torture, maiming, wife beating, inferiority of woman, women as instruments of sexual pleasure in paradise, honor killings, stoning, cutting off limbs, child sex, bigotry, intolerance, slavery, inequality of infidels, inequality of any human being, that infidels can be murdered as a holy duty, that Muslims who renounce Islam can be killed, that Muslims (or anyone) who challenge the teachings of Islam can be murdered, etc are irrational AND NOT THE PERFECT TEACHINGS OF ALLAH – A PERFECT GOD - A GOD OF REASON – A GOD OF ALL LOVE AND PEACE.

All Imams/ Fundamentalists who quote these phrases from the Koran are blaspheming against Allah.

Osma bin laden and all other terrorists who issue Fatwas calling for death and destruction are blaspheming Allah - A PERFECT GOD - A GOD OF REASON.

By teaching young Muslims that ALLAH IS A PERFECT GOD - A GOD OF REASON - that all the teachings of ALLAH - A PERFECT GOD MUST BE PERFECT we will occupy the moral and intellectual unassailable high ground. All the above mentioned teachings of Jihad, killing of infidels, terrorism etc are sins against ALLAH - A PERFECT GOD - A GOD OF LOVE AND PEACE. No ALLAH who is ALLAH would ever preach that killing and murdering of any human being in his name will be rewarded by accession to paradise. You cannot climb to heaven on the corpses of the murdered. No ALLAH who is ALLAH would ever create a Paradise full of big breasted sexual nymphs. All such teachings are the commands of evil men and false prophets. If ALLAH commanded that infidels (or any other human being) be killed then he would be irrational and evil and no longer PERFECT - no longer GOD.

This is the only way to rescue Islam from these brutal killers

The Reformation of Islam is an issue of conscience. Islam as it is presently constituted is an issue of conscience and its Reform is definitely the concern of all peace loving, democratic believing peoples everywhere. Violence in Islam is a direct threat to all mankind. It is an issue of National Security not only for the West but also for Muslim countries.

Least we all forget - it is mostly Muslims who are suffering and being killed and blown up in horrific numbers. Since 911 - over 150,000 Muslims have been murdered by their fellow Muslims in the worst ways imaginable.

Murder, suicide bombings, violence, etc are evil. When these evil acts are committed in the name of and to the greater glory of ALLAH – this is the greatest evil that anyone can commit. Again to kill and murder so you can ascend to a Paradise of Big Breasted Nymphs to rape and molest for all eternity – this is truly evil incarnate.

Any Muslim who supports suicide bombers, acts of violence - if they continue to support this evil - are not Muslims - they are blaspheming against the very essence of ALLAH – A GOD OF PEACE AND LOVE – A PERFECT GOD OF REASON. Any Muslim, who commits acts of violence, acts of terrorism, acts of violent jihad in the name of ALLAH are not Muslims - they’re just MURDERERS. All teachings in the Koran that are not of ALLAH - A PERFECT GOD OF REASON - blaspheme ALLAH and are evil. They must be renounced and denounced totally and completely WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION. These teachings must be removed from the Koran and a NEW MODERN KORAN published. The publication of a MODERN KORAN will be an instant worldwide best seller.
WHY THESE TEACHINGS OF VIOLENCE AND SUBROGATION OF WOMEN MUST BE REMOVED FROM THE KORAN?

By leaving these violent and abhorrent teachings in the Koran, we are in effect saying that these teachings are NORMAL. We are basically acquiescing to evil. We can no longer allow Peace Loving Muslims to declare Islam as a religion of Peace and Love and tolerance etc while leaving in the Koran and Islamic texts -teachings of terror, death and destruction, subrogation of women, intolerance, hate etc. We can no longer allow these Muslims to live in a fantasy world of an ALLAH of all Goodness while the Koran contains teachings of a hateful, murderous ALLAH – the ANTI ALLAH. By demanding that Peace Loving Muslims prove that they are truly peace loving – by removing these evil teachings from the Koran – will be a TRUE MOMENT OF CATHARSIS FOR ISLAM.

The Koran is accepted by all Muslims as the word of God – not subject to change- not even by one word. By forcing Muslims to confront these evil passages they will be forced to answer the following question:

Is Muhammad A False Prophet Or Is ALLAH A False Prophet?

Answer:

ALLAH AS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE - THE CREATOR OF ALL LIVING THINGS IS PERFECT.

AS A PERFECT GOD - ALL TEACHINGS OF ALLAH - MUST BE PERFECT

As stated above - this means that all teachings recorded in the Koran and all other Islamic texts, revelations, writings, sayings, fatwas of murder, killing, death and destruction, violence, hate, suicide bombers, violent jihad, terrorism, torture, maiming, wife beating, inferiority of woman, subrogation of women, women as instruments of sexual pleasure in paradise, honor killings, stoning, cutting off limbs, child sex, bigotry, intolerance, slavery, inequality of infidels, inequality of any human being, that infidels can be murdered as a holy duty, that Muslims who renounce Islam can be killed, that Muslims (or anyone) who challenge the teachings of Islam can be murdered, etc are irrational AND NOT THE PERFECT TEACHINGS OF ALLAH. They are THE TEACHINGS OF MAN.

If Muhammad taught his followers that the above teachings were the WORDS of ALLAH then he is a false prophet since as a PERFECT GOD - ALLAH never would have given such revelations to Muhammad. If however, ALLAH issued any of these teachings to Muhammad then he is no longer PERFECT and therefore no longer GOD. Indeed the false PROPHET would be ALLAH. An evil false PROPHET.

Once these teachings are removed - Islam will be a TRUE Religion of Peace. Issues such as environmentalism, modern family life, poverty in the third world – modern issues that did not exist 1400 years ago – should be added to this New Modern Koran. By reforming Islam - a truly great New Koran can be created that all Muslims can take pride in. Again - the printing of a new Koran will be a truly historic day for mankind. And it will be a worldwide best seller.

By,

Larry Houle
www.godofreason.com
E-mail: intermedusa@yahoo.com

Posted by: Larry at June 9, 2007 1:58 AM

Larry --

You may want to check-out this website:

http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_allah_not_God.html

Posted by: champ at June 9, 2007 2:28 AM

"ALLAH – A PERFECT GOD – A GOD OF REASON
THE CREATION OF A NEW MODERN ISLAM"....THIS IS A LIE!!!

"Exodus 20:1-3, "And God spake all these words,
saying, I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me." This is the account of Moses receiving the Decalogue or Ten Commandments from Jehovah God."

"Every commandment that God has given to man is based upon the truth that there is "One God and Father of all, who is over all," so says Paul in Ephesians 4:6. I readily recognize that the Ten Commandments were laws given to the Israelites,
the descendents of Israel, who had been in bondage to Egypt for better than 400 years. But, the principle of "Have no other god before me"
applies to all generations, even to us today."

Posted by: champ at June 9, 2007 2:45 AM

Dear Champ;

There is only one God. Allah is another word for God. However, very unfortunately for mankind, there are 2 dramatically different conceptions of God. There is the conception of a God of Peace and Love and Goodness, an all Wise, all Loving God for all mankind. The second conception is that of a murderous God of hate,oppression,death and destruction - The Anti God.

In order for God to be God then

GOD AS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE - THE CREATOR OF ALL LIVING THINGS IS PERFECT.

GOD AS A PERFECT GOD - IS A GOD OF REASON

ALL TEACHINGS OF GOD - A PERFECT GOD - MUST BE PERFECT

ANY WRITINGS IN ANY RELIGIOUS TEXT THAT ARE NOT PERFECT ARE NOT THE TEACHINGS OF GOD BUT THE TEACHINGS OF MAN

AS A PERFECT GOD - A GOD OF REASON - GOD IS ALL PEACE AND LOVE AND GOODNESS

ALL MANKIND ARE THE CHILDREN OF GOD

ALL CHILDREN OF GOD ARE CREATED EQUAL AND THEIR LIVES ARE SACRED TO GOD

GOD IS NOT AN IRRATIONAL BEING. IF GOD IS IRRATIONAL THEN GOD IS NOT PERFECT AND THEREFORE SINCE ALLAH CANNOT BE IMPERFECT AN IRRATIONAL ALLAH IS NOT GOD.

The above conception of GOD means that all teachings in all religious texts (written or verbal) that are not PERFECT are not the teachings of GOD - A PERFECT GOD - A GOD OF REASON but the teachings of man.

This means that all teachings recorded in all religious texts, revelations, writings, sayings, fatwas of murder, killing, death and destruction, violence, hate, suicide bombers, violent jihad, terrorism, torture, maiming, wife beating, inferiority of woman, women as instruments of sexual pleasure in paradise, honor killings, stoning, cutting off limbs, child sex, bigotry, intolerance, slavery, inequality of infidels, inequality of any human being, that infidels can be murdered as a holy duty, that Muslims who renounce Islam can be killed, that Muslims (or anyone) who challenge the teachings of Islam can be murdered, etc are irrational AND NOT THE PERFECT TEACHINGS OF ALLAH – A PERFECT GOD - A GOD OF REASON – A GOD OF ALL LOVE AND PEACE.

If any of the above teachings were the TRUE teachings of GOD then GOD would be an irrational, evil and GOD would no longer be GOD.

The second conception of a murderous God of hate,oppression,death and destruction - The Anti God is not GOD.

For teachings in the Torah, Bible, to be the teachings of GOD - they must be PERFECT.

Both Jews and Christians have come to terms with the historcial imperfections of their religions but most Muslims have not faced the very great evil that lies at the heart of Islam.

The greatest danger mankind faces is the smuggling of a nuclear weapon by an Islamic Fundamentalist into a major western city killing millions in the name of and to the greater glory of ALLAH. If the hateful teachings are not removed from Islam this is the disaster that will destroy civilization as we know it. It will dramatically change human history forever. The stakes are that high

By leaving these violent and abhorrent teachings in the Koran, we are in effect saying that these teachings are NORMAL. We are basically acquiescing to evil.

We can no longer allow Peace Loving Muslims to declare Islam as a religion of Peace and Love and tolerance etc while leaving in the Koran and Islamic texts -teachings of terror, death and destruction, subrogation of women, intolerance, hate etc. We can no longer allow these Muslims to live in a fantasy world of an ALLAH of all Goodness while the Koran contains teachings of a hateful, murderous ALLAH – the ANTI ALLAH. By demanding that Peace Loving Muslims prove that they are truly peace loving – by removing these evil teachings from the Koran – will be a TRUE MOMENT OF CATHARSIS FOR ISLAM.

By Larry Houle

Posted by: Larry at June 9, 2007 5:46 AM

I look at it this way:

If God/Allah is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, He does not NEED the help of the Islamic fundementalists. Therefore, all Islamic fundementalists are apostates, because they deny the power of God/Allah. Also...The Bible, Koran, etc. have all been written by the hand of man, not God. Therefore, as man is imperfect, so are the Holy Books. This does not mean the Holy Books are wrong, but that being written in the hand of man, they are not perfect. The Koran, was dictated by God/Allah to Mohammed, who was illiterate...how could Mohammed even check to see that the words as written were correct?? He could not.

Posted by: Joseph at June 9, 2007 9:04 AM

Larry - I see what you're getting at but that is because you are a rational person. You are overlooking the fact that Muslims use an irrational, circular reasoning where Allah is concerned. They begin with the assumption that the Koran is perfect and good and therefore everything that Allah commands is perfect and good, even if that includes killing unbelievers. David Wood addressed this type of reasoning about Muhammad as a moral model in this article:

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20936

"These details about Muhammad raise a very important question: What does a prophet have to do before Muslims will be willing to question whether he is truly the greatest moral example in history? Normally, when we say that someone is a moral person, we mean that he doesn't commit acts such as robbery and murder. Yet Muhammad did all these things and much more. It appears, then, that Muslims are using the term "moral" in a very unique way. In this uniquely Muslim sense of the term, the word "moral" is defined as "whatever Muhammad does." Thus, if Muhammad were to chop off the heads of hundreds of people (which he did), this act would still be defined as a moral act, since Muhammad did it, and anything Muhammad does is, by definition, moral."

See the problem here? Hopefully enough Muslims still have a capacity for rationality that they can break out of this circular reasoning about Allah and Muhammad but at that point they are more likely to leave Islam altogether than to need the kind of Koran you are proposing which has been stripped of half its contents, while those Muslims who are unable to break out of this circular reasoning would not put up with the drastic revisions you propose because they already see Islam as perfect just the way it is.

Posted by: Caroline at June 9, 2007 9:29 AM

WELL EXCUUUUUUSE ME!!! We Americans are intolerant. Intolerant of people who want to cut our heads off and sell the video. Intolerant of those who blow up our buildings and cheer when it happens, then turn around and say that we did it ourselves as part of some elaborate hoax that we are otherwise too fat and lazy and stupid to pull off. Yes, American's are intolerant, we're just funny that way. But the world will never try to understand us, you've already got us all figured out.

Posted by: Balrog at June 9, 2007 10:01 AM

They speak of love.. never defined except in killing! That is not love! What example has been put forth of 'this' love, what love!!?

Posted by: MZ at June 9, 2007 12:58 PM

ji-had Zeb what ever path your on, your on your own as we all are! You do not have to convince me you will ever meet me! You have a different belief! I do not call a religion butt a belief!

Posted by: MZ at June 9, 2007 1:04 PM

Loving God's glorious gifts and beauty he has given us! Like the indians they believe in everything! Rocks, I love the beauty of a rock! Then are the islamist to bloody each beauty of God's given beauty of nature in that, to destroy what he accomplished humanity! To share with God our true character in likeness of the Father! not some man's idea of what they interpret it! I believe my Father!

Posted by: MZ at June 9, 2007 1:13 PM

Zeb, when are you ignoramuses going to realize that islam is a failed experiment. mohammed lied just as you and your entire culture are wont to do. the only true testament is the Tanach. The Tanach was given to the Jewish people, G-D's people, by G-D himself. That's why you moslems are losers anytime you fight the Jewish minority. There are 1500 million moslems in this world and only 13 million Jews. The Jews contribute to the world in medicine, science, literature, art, music, economics, math, etc. and the moslems contribute hatred, destruction and murder.

Posted by: winta at June 9, 2007 1:23 PM

jehanzeb; What you say, I can relate to. I just find it realy hard to get past the acid baths, public stonings, and random car bombings that you haven't mentioned. Can you enlighten me?

Posted by: mustang65 at June 9, 2007 2:03 PM

Larry --

You stated, "There is only one God. Allah is another word for God."

There IS only one God -- BUT -- allah is NOT another word for Him.

As a Christian, Jesus Christ is the One True God. Jesus is God in the flesh; and allah's prophet, Muhammad, was merely a man, and a false prophet.

http://www.christring.org/shortseries/jesusormuhammad.htm

Below, the 18 "differences" between Jesus & Muhammad from the above link:

"JESUS VS MUHAMMAD: YOU DECIDE:

1. Jesus was born of a virgin. (Matthew 1:18-25) 1. Muhammad was born of a normal woman.
(Ibn Hisham pp. 68-69)

2. Jesus served God as a child. (Luke 2:39-52) 2. Muhammad was an idolater.
(Sahih Bukhari vol.6, p. 452)

3. Jesus read the Bible. (Luke:16-21)
3. Muhammad was illiterate. (Qur'an 7:156)

4. Jesus preached the gospel at God's
command and lived on the donations of others.
(Luke 4:16-21 and 8:1-3)
4. Muhammad, without being commanded byGod, began to steal from others and live on their goods. (Ibn Hisham pp. 281-)

5. Jesus performed miracles. (Mark 3:9-10)
5. Muhammad could not perform miracles.
(Qur'an 29:49)

6. Jesus made blind eyes see. (Luke 18:35-43) 6. Muhammad made seeing eyes blind.
(Sahih Bukhari vol. 8, p. 520)

7. Jesus made the lame walk. (Matthew 9:2-8)
7. Muhammad made the walking lame.
(Sahih Bukhari vol. 8, p. 520)

8. Jesus healed withered hands.
(Matthew 12:10- 13)
8. Muhammad cut off the hands of others.
(Sahih Bukhari vol.8, p. 520)

9. Jesus raised the dead. (John 11:1-45)
9. Muhammad had the living killed. Ibn Hisham p. 308)

10. Jesus forgave his opponents. (Luke 23:43) 10. Muhammad had his opponents murdered.
(Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, pp. 248-)

11. Jesus set the condemned free. (John 8:1-11) 11. Muhammad condemned the free and led them into slavery. (Ibn Hisham p. 466)

12. Jesus preached in God's chosen temple.
(Luke 20:1)
12. Muhammad prayed at the Ka'ba when it still contained hundreds of idols.
(Sahih Bukari vol. 1, p. 151)

13. Jesus preached against divorce.
(Matthew 5:31-32)
13. Muhammad preached divorce and allowed temporary marriage with compensation. (Mut'a) (Qur'an 2:230, Sahih Bukhari vol. 7, p. 8)

14. Jesus was sinless. (John 8:46)
14. Muhammad was sinful. (Qur'an 47:21 and Qur'an 110)

15. Jesus gave Himself as a sacrifice for all mankind. (John 1:29 and 10:18)
15. Muhammad died unexpectedly of illness (which he himself said was due to a poisoning attempt). (Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, p. 510)

16. Jesus rose from the dead on the third day after His death, and later ascended into heaven. (Luke 23 and 24)
16. Muhammad was buried in Medina on the third day after his death. His tomb is visited by pilgrims each year. (al-Tabari vol. 9, p. 208)

17. Jesus is God's Word and God Himself. (John 1:1, 14)
17. Muhammad was only a warner. (Qur'an 29:49)

18. Jesus lives!
18. Muhammad is dead.

THE SUMMARY: JESUS/CHRISTIANITY VS MUHAMMAD/ISLAM

The God of Jesus Christ sent His Son to die for you.

The god of Muhammad demands that you send your son to die for him."

Can anyone think of more differences?

Posted by: champ at June 9, 2007 2:19 PM

"When the threat of death becomes a door to paradise, the final barrier to temporal risk is broken.

When a Christian says from the heart, "To live is Christ and to die is gain," he is free to love no matter what.

Some forms of radical Islam may entice martyr-murderers with similar dreams, but Christian hope is the power to love, not kill. Christian hope produces life-givers, not life-takers."

~ John Piper

Posted by: champ at June 9, 2007 2:24 PM

Dear Joseph:

One of the greatest evils anyone can commit is
to take man’s natural Concept of ALLAH, a conception of Peace and Love and Goodness,an all Wise, all Loving ALLAH for all mankind, and turn ALLAH - by bastardizing his teachings into a murderous ALLAH of hate, death and destruction, for the creation of a totalitarian system is one of the greatest sins that can be committed against ALLAH.

Islamic fundamentalists are evil people. Their acts of suicade bombings,carnage, death and destruction are the very incarnation of evil.

The issue is not" how could Mohammed even check to see that the words as written were correct?? He could not." This issue is if Muhammad taught his followers that the teachings recorded in the Koran of violence, murder, subrogation of women etc. were the WORDS of ALLAH then he is a false prophet since as a PERFECT GOD - ALLAH never would have given such revelations to Muhammad. If however, ALLAH issued any of these teachings to Muhammad then he is no longer PERFECT and therefore no longer GOD. Indeed the false PROPHET would be ALLAH. An evil false PROPHET.

If GOD does exist then the following truths are self evident:

1. GOD is anti - war. He never lead an army into battle, changed the weather allowing (his) side to win or any other form of divine intervention etc. For GOD - all war is abhorrent. There is no - "his" side.

2. GOD is a non - religious entity. Religion was invented by man as a vehicle to allow him to comprehend GOD. Because man is imperfect then religion is imperfect.

3. For GOD, there exists no concept of believers or non - believers. There is no one truth. There is no such thing as the one and only true religion. There are many ways to GOD. Even a total non - believer like Christopher Hitchens can ascend to Heaven provided he does not have an evil soul.

4. GOD gave man a Free Will to do Good or Evil, to explore the truth of any question including - his existence.

5. GOD is democratic - he believes that no man should be ruled by dictators.

6. All men are created equal. GOD is not a racist.

7. GOD created women as the equal of men. GOD is not a sexist.

8. GOD has never sent a storm or other calamity of nature to destroy any human being or any human city etc.

9. GOD has never ordered the killing of any human being. If GOD killed only one human being then GOD is a murderer and GOD is no longer GOD.

10. GOD has the power but not the moral right to destroy the Earth. There are many different ways mankind can go to extinction. The end can come through the actions of man such as a nuclear holocaust, or the invention of a disease. Another way is for a comet to smash into the earth. Definitely in 5 billion years, the sun will supernova destroying the earth. If GOD intervenes in these natural or human processes in any way and destroys the Earth because he is pissed off with Homo Sapiens or any other reason then GOD is the greatest mass murderer ever and GOD is no longer GOD.

By,

Larry Houle

Posted by: Larry at June 9, 2007 2:28 PM

Dear Champ:

I disagree with your statement -" Larry --
You stated, "There is only one God. Allah is another word for God."There IS only one God -- BUT -- allah is NOT another word for Him.
As a Christian, Jesus Christ is the One True God. Jesus is God in the flesh; and allah's prophet, Muhammad, was merely a man, and a false prophet."

While I agree that Muhammad was a false prophet, I do not agree that Christainity is the one and only path to GOD.

GOD is a non - religious entity. Religion was invented by man as a vehicle to allow him to comprehend GOD. Because man is imperfect then religion is imperfect.

For GOD, there exists no concept of believers or non - believers. There is no one truth. There is no such thing as the one and only true religion. There are many ways to GOD. Even a total non - believer like can ascend to Heaven provided he does not have an evil soul.

By,

Larry Houle

Posted by: Larry at June 9, 2007 2:37 PM

Dear Winta:

No religion has the total truth. The Jewish Tanach is not the only true testament. There is no chosen people. For GOD, there exists no concept of believers or non - believers. There is no one truth. There is no such thing as the one and only true religion. There are many ways to GOD. Even a total non - believer can ascend to Heaven provided he does not have an evil soul.

All mankind are the children of God created equally in his image. God is not a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Buddist etc.

All life forms throughout the universe who practise FREE WILL are the Children of God and all will go to heaven provided they are not evil.

By,

Larry Houle

Posted by: Larry at June 9, 2007 2:51 PM

Larry --

You stated, "There is no one truth. There is no such thing as the one and only true religion. There are many ways to GOD. Even a total non - believer like can ascend to Heaven provided he does not have an evil soul."

**I disagree with these two points. As to your first point, this is what the Bible has to say about Jesus:

"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14 (NKJV)

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6 (NKJV)

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." -- John 5:22,23 (NKJV)

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." -- John 17:3 (NKJV)

--------------------------------------------------

**As to your second point, we are ALL sinners and deserving of hell:

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Romans 5:9

Jesus said, "You must be born again." John 3:7

http://www.the-highway.com/bornagain_Harinck.html

Posted by: champ at June 9, 2007 3:39 PM

Larry --

You sound like a Unitarian. Are you? If not, then what do you consider yourself?

Posted by: champ at June 9, 2007 4:02 PM

Dear Caroline;

What you and David Wood are describing is a Totalitarian system that uses the Word of God to maintain control. They are using God to enforce a religious fascist dictatorship utilizing evil teachings as instruments of murder, subrogation etc. Anyone who opposes these tyrants will be killed.

In the 20th century we were engaged in a life and death struggle with the Totalitarian systems of communism, Nazism. Millions perished Just as we fought these two ideologies and defeated them – so to we must now face the evil Islam poses to the world. Islam as it is presently constituted is a grave threat to world peace.

The greatest danger mankind faces is the smuggling of a nuclear weapon by an Islamic Fundamentalist into a major western city killing millions in the name of and to the greater glory of ALLAH. If the hateful teachings of the Koran are not removed from Islam this is the disaster that will destroy civilization as we know it. It will dramatically change human history forever. The stakes are that high.

We must oppose these criminals. By leaving these violent and abhorrent teachings in the Koran, we are in effect saying that these teachings are NORMAL. We are basically acquiescing to evil. We can no longer allow Peace Loving Muslims to declare Islam as a religion of Peace and Love and tolerance etc while leaving in the Koran and Islamic texts -teachings of terror, death and destruction, subrogation of women, intolerance, hate etc. We can no longer allow these Muslims to live in a fantasy world of an ALLAH of all Goodness while the Koran contains teachings of a hateful, murderous ALLAH – the ANTI ALLAH. By demanding that Peace Loving Muslims prove that they are truly peace loving – by removing these evil teachings from the Koran – will be a TRUE MOMENT OF CATHARSIS FOR ISLAM.

When a Muslim says that Islam is all Peace and Love then the answer should be –“great now renounce, denounce and remove from Islam all the hundreds and hundreds of quotes of murder, hate, terror,” etc. You cannot ascend to Heaven climbing on the corpses of the murdered.

We can show Islam – No Respect - IF THESE ABHORANT TEACHINGS ARE NOT
REMOVED FROM ISLAM THEN ISLAM IS EVIL. We cannot white wash in any way this reality.

By,

Larry Houle

Larry - I see what you're getting at but that is because you are a rational person. You are overlooking the fact that Muslims use an irrational, circular reasoning where Allah is concerned. They begin with the assumption that the Koran is perfect and good and therefore everything that Allah commands is perfect and good, even if that includes killing unbelievers. David Wood addressed this type of reasoning about Muhammad as a moral model in this article:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20936
"These details about Muhammad raise a very important question: What does a prophet have to do before Muslims will be willing to question whether he is truly the greatest moral example in history? Normally, when we say that someone is a moral person, we mean that he doesn't commit acts such as robbery and murder. Yet Muhammad did all these things and much more. It appears, then, that Muslims are using the term "moral" in a very unique way. In this uniquely Muslim sense of the term, the word "moral" is defined as "whatever Muhammad does." Thus, if Muhammad were to chop off the heads of hundreds of people (which he did), this act would still be defined as a moral act, since Muhammad did it, and anything Muhammad does is, by definition, moral."
See the problem here? Hopefully enough Muslims still have a capacity for rationality that they can break out of this circular reasoning about Allah and Muhammad but at that point they are more likely to leave Islam altogether than to need the kind of Koran you are proposing which has been stripped of half its contents, while those Muslims who are unable to break out of this circular reasoning would not put up with the drastic revisions you propose because they already see Islam as perfect just the way it is.
Posted by: Caroline

Posted by: Larry at June 10, 2007 3:10 AM

Dear Champ;

For teachings to be the word of God, they must be PERFECT. The quotes you cite from the Bible are not the word of God but the word of Man. No God who is God would ever condemn the billions and billions of non - Christians to hell.

Only evil people deserve to rot in hell.

non - Christaind are not evil people.

By,

Larry Houle
www.godofreason.com

Posted by: Larry at June 10, 2007 3:35 AM

Larry --

OK -- so you want to remain blind about the word of God and where you stand with God without Christ. I pray that your eyes would be opened.

Most of the passages I listed for you were not the words of man, but of Jesus Christ, so you are not correct in your criticism of the scriptures mentioned.

Here is a website that sites the words of Jesus Christ, since you seem to oppose the words of man. Words that many believe including myself, that were inspired by God.

http://www.ccel.org/bible/phillips/JBPRed.htm

When we all stand before God -- it's Christ atonement that God will be looking for on your soul to let you into heaven, Larry, nothing else. Because NONE of us are acceptable before God without Christ's blood.

Posted by: champ at June 10, 2007 12:32 PM