All Muslims should fight to create an Islamic state, he urged. "There are only two options for Muslims; to win or to die.".......This is what I said from the first post...Islam picked the fight...it is up to us to win or lose.

Posted by: storagemanager at June 26, 2007 10:18 PM

Left to it's own devices, with the removal of the collective kuffar, Islam will destroy itself. Fortunately, for the collective global sanity of the world we know, we, the kuffar, are not obliged to sit idly by, waiting for our prerequisite slaughter by those in the "camp of Islam" (thanks Hugh), to get to that obvious end.

Islam's well-documented illogicality, borne of a vengeful, morally challenged, illiterate, self-proclaimed prophet..offers absolutely nothing positive to the world. That truth is being told, and most ironically, substantiated by the words and actions of the jihadists each and every day.

In terms of "win or die" however, simply hoping for the latter, in terms of the fate of Islam, is not enough.

Posted by: awake at June 26, 2007 10:26 PM

Muslims and particularly Arab muslims must rid themselves of their governments from Morocco to Saudi Arabia. Then and only then we will be able to govern independently of foreign powers who divided us with the help of our so-called leaders. To become strong again and restore a power to be reckoned with in the future whether it be military or economic or scietific...etc we need to rid ourselves of the corruption.

Posted by: progressive at June 26, 2007 10:27 PM

In the Koran is one verse that caught me from the first...Islam must rule the world.....nothing else need be said....if you have a head filled with logic...you should get it.

Posted by: storagemanager at June 26, 2007 10:31 PM

Indonesians are noted for their nationalistic (if not occasionally chauvinistic) attitude towards their homeland.

Now at the same time, Islam is known for its 'religious' belief that there can only be one state worldwide-- the 'ummah'. Islam has no use whatsoever for any "state" except for a planet ruled under sharia't (which few Indonesians care to see running their homeland). Indonesia would cease to exist under sharia't; in effect Indonesia would become a (blood-soaked) vassal state of the Middle East with Bashir at the helm!

Few Indonesians express any affection for the Middle East (Bashir himself is of Yemeni-Arab descent). Curiously, Indonesia has one of the world's highest percentages of pro-Americanism among its population (over 75% at the last nationwide polls taken).

Hopefully, Indonesians will remember Islam's contribution to their homeland over the centuries at the polls (bloodshed, fanaticism, corruption, anti-infidel pogroms,etc). And it is certainly to be hoped that these people will remember too that this mass-murdering thug (whose murderous activities are even mentioned in the touristy 1969 book by journalist Christopher Lucas "Indonesia Is a Happening") that this unlovely fellow, Bashir, is essentially a Middle eastern invader and ethnically NOT an Indonesian.

Posted by: pythagoras at June 26, 2007 10:31 PM

Progressive,

Arabic Muslims answer to the government of Allah via the sole words of Muhammad, but I do agree, the abolition of corrupt Arabic governments is a good start.

It is past time to put the embarassingly fictional Allah in the ground, next to his creator, where he aptly should have been put long,long ago.

Posted by: awake at June 26, 2007 10:34 PM

I think the isolation of Muslim nations is in Order.

Let no more immigrate into Western countries,and let them fend for themselves at home. adopt a Zero tolerance policy toward treasonous activities for the Muslims already here , or better yet give incentives to those who don't feel treated fairly here to leave our lands. And get off their oil as soon as humanly possible.

Posted by: MoBlows at June 26, 2007 10:36 PM

Thye want to die for Allah, and we want to kill them. Sounds like a win-win to me.

Posted by: Timur at June 26, 2007 10:43 PM

‘Win or Die’ perhaps in dar-al-islam. Stateside it should be called ‘Apostasy or Fly’.

Ken Kinzil was killed last month. His only relation to the global jihad is that his story is interesting and represents the mobility of the American tax base between the US and low tax countries to the south. The Jihad feeds on our Problem of Overproduction, which has the ability to move south. Political correctness, and tolerance of the Jihad, go out the window when the money runs out.

Ken was in his early fifties and married to a lady in the US. He was developing a piece of land in Nicaragua and ended up with a teenage girlfriend. She got pregnant. The girlfriend ended up shooting him and cutting him into pieces. There is a debate as to whether the blade was a machete, a chain saw, or a table saw.

Compare the writing ability of the Nicaragua discussion group with that of other web-sites. The people moving to Nicaragua may be hippies, but they are not dummies. More traditional moves are to the Dominican Republic (Clinton and Oscar De La Renta), Paraguay (Bush), Belize (Gates and Francis Ford Coppola), Bahamas (Bloomberg and Anna Nicole) or Panama (Trump). Most money is attached to names people don’t recognize. When the dependent electorate targets the elite, the elite will just flip a switch. Then taxes for the elite drop from 70% to about zero. Then the dependent get angry as the social safety net fails. Then those who don’t elect the apostasy option get on planes.

http://www.nicaliving.com/node/9448

Posted by: pez at June 26, 2007 11:27 PM

Curiously, Indonesia has one of the world's highest percentages of pro-Americanism among its population (over 75% at the last nationwide polls taken).
post by Pythagoras

Indonesia is a secular, democratic nation with the world's largest Muslim population. The vast majority practices a moderate form of the faith, but a small and active minority espouses Muslim militancy. (from VOA News)

from an article in the Jakarta press which told of a PR offensive launched by the US embassy introducing the life of Muslims in the US:

"Mainstream Islam in Indonesia is against terrorism and is compatible with democracy. This is what Americans really need to know."

from the same article:

"Of course, it was not stated that the series was launched in Indonesia because of the recent bombing in Bali. Also not mentioned was another possible reason: the harsh reaction from almost all Muslim organizations, big and small in terms of their members, to Indonesia’s policy against terrorism and the arrest of Abu Bakar Bashir [the leader of Jemaah Islamiyah, the Asian equivalent of Bin Laden’s Al-Qaeda terror network] in particular, which they widely perceived as done under U.S. pressure."

Just how pro-US are Indonesians? Will they fight their fellow Muslims in order to wipe out terrorism or will they decide that it's their duty to "win or die" and join the JI-like groups.

If 75% of Indonesians are pro-Western that suggests that, in a country of 240 million, more than fifty million are not. Since JI and its fellow organizations are minuscule, that means that the bulk of those who don't support the US are what we would consider to be "peaceful" Muslims. Just how moderate are they?

Posted by: PMK at June 26, 2007 11:38 PM

"There are only two options for Muslims; to win or to die"

Sarcasm ON:

Well, we in the West... or at least our politicians and our Ivy-stamped "intellectuals"... have become so mortally afraid of defensive killing -- unless it is to bring democracy (not liberty) to the poor, oppressed, agency-less, politically-mouldable brown masses (you know, the folks that have to steal violent ideology from the European existentialists to have something potent to believe in) -- that I guess y'all will just have to, uh, win.

Heck, they're even afraid to POINT OUT that you're ideologically motivated for fear that we uncouth masses might come to expect -- yikes! -- a serious defensive military strategy. Someone wanting to slit our throats might get personally or religiously offended by that, you know.

I know winning means a longer wait for heaven's virgins, but since you can get to our daughters by age 9 or so, you should have plenty of cherry to tide you over until your natural deaths.

Sarcasm OFF.

But there's a chance it'll get to that if we let it.

Aside, for those who don't get my neocon reference, I'm really really sick of *real* racists calling other people racists for saying things that have NOTHING to do with race, and EVERYTHING to do with culture and choices.

Posted by: mrsmomomoto at June 26, 2007 11:48 PM

So terrorism for Islam is "counter-terrorism"?

Even if it means blowing up a bunch of Australian tourists in a nightclub in Bali?

Those clever Aussie buggers, trying to infiltrate a poor, defenseless Muslim zone with a can of haram Foster's in one hand and wild, slutty womens in the other.

Islam can do no wrong.

At least according to Islam.

How bloody convenient.

To kill infidels is always "defensive".

Because they're lack of submission to Islam is actually an assault upon Islam.

No logic. No shame. No basic humanity.

Islam: huis clos.

(no exit).

Posted by: profitsbeard at June 26, 2007 11:50 PM

"Kholil Ridwan, of the Islamic Community Forum, said Detachment 88 was a US tool to "stigmatise Islam".

I can agree that we should stop calling this "the war on terrorisn," and drop department names like "Detachment 88" and "Homeland security."

Names should reflect the reality of just what we're dealing with. I think it would be much more appropriate to call the homeland security department "The department of defense against Islamic extrimist" or "the Islamic criminal activities department."

Why all the pretense?

Posted by: rational at June 26, 2007 11:53 PM

"There are only two options for Muslims; to win or to die"

I vote for die

Posted by: rational at June 26, 2007 11:56 PM

There are only two options for Muslims; to win or to die"

I vote for die

Posted by: rational at June 26, 2007 11:56 PM

Well, they're not going to win so I guess it's bye bye muslims. The sooner the better.

This group (see link below) is performing an invaluable service; too bad they have to do it instead of our worthless government, which refuses to "discriminate" against any religion, even one that actively, openly seeks to destroy us. The articles about islam/jihad in America will make your skin crawl.

www.saneworks.us

Posted by: Susanp at June 27, 2007 12:13 AM

Throwing down the gauntlet to authorities after the capture of two JI leaders, Kholil Ridwan, of the Islamic Community Forum, said Detachment 88 was a US tool to "stigmatise Islam".
----------------

capture ruthless islamic murderers is stigmatizing islam.........

that kind of like blaming Elvis for being on the radio while getting pregrant in the back seat....

Posted by: Texican at June 27, 2007 12:23 AM

Win, Die or LOSE!

Posted by: champ at June 27, 2007 1:40 AM

Kill these fools and put them out of their misery and our danger.

islam must change or be destroyed.

Posted by: dgene at June 27, 2007 2:10 AM

I like their second option. Bring on the virgins!

SusanP
thanks for that site, it looks interesting:)

Posted by: Gramfan at June 27, 2007 2:37 AM

Im good with die.

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at June 27, 2007 6:25 AM

Now the UK could implement plans to turn Islamic curriculum over to Muslims. In addition, universities are to be re-tailored to suit Muslims alone.

http://ummahnewslinks.com/2007/06/25/report-on-the-teaching-of-islam-in-universities.aspx

What is good for jihad, is what's good for Islam.

Posted by: supercargo at June 27, 2007 6:33 AM

"Those who did bombings, they are just doing counter-terrorism. They are holy warriors to defend Muslims terrorised in other countries."

......now doesn't this sound like the Palestinians foaming at the mouth...."we are not attacking Israel, we are defending the homeland"

and

"we need to rid ourselves of the corruption.

Posted by: progressive"

in other words the Muslims need to eliminate all those Muslims who strive for peaceful coexistance with non Muslims, to eliminate all those Muslims who strive to participate in a global economic social structure (free trade, competitive markets), to eliminate all those Muslims who strive for improving the lives off the sick and diseased people by allowing such things as polio vaccinations and TB vaccinations, developement of cures for diseases suchs as HIV, ebola, and any number of maladies that seem to be unstoppable, to eliminate all those Muslims who seek some temporary relief from the daily stresses in life by listening to music, playing soccer, watching a movie, or even just wearing decent modern styled clothing, to eliminate all those Muslims who consider Non Muslims as be capable of being friends, to eliminate those Muslims who, for personal reasons, decide to leave Islam and who go out to seek other religions that make them happier, to eliminate all those Muslims who are unwilling to participate in the violent Jihad against whomever the crazed, bearded, finger pointing Islamic cleric says must be attacked and ripped apart..

...some Muslims today have a distorted view of just who is corrupt...until the Muslims figure out just who they want to be...we must ban Muslim Immigration....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at June 27, 2007 6:44 AM

I vote for die ....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at June 27, 2007 6:47 AM

To become strong again and restore a power to be reckoned with in the future whether it be military or economic or scietific...etc we need to rid ourselves of the corruption.
Posted by: progressive

Hate to break it to you, regressive, but islam is corrupt. Rid the world of islam and it will be a better place.
As for islam becoming a force to be reckoned with scientifically, perhaps you ought to learn how to spell first.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at June 27, 2007 7:55 AM

I think it's a really good idea to have organizations with the agenda of 'Destroying Islam'.

Robert can claim that Islam must be reformed and that it stands a chance of being reformed, but I say that Islam stands no chance of being reformed.

Saying it can, is like: "Your words vs Allah's words" - Hmm, I wonder who would win? ¬_¬

Yeah, that's right. Allah's words win every single time, because it's Allah for crying out loud. No Muslim is going to take your words over his.

Posted by: Rogster at June 27, 2007 8:27 AM

It would appear that every NON muslim in the world knows that it is a violent, corrupt evil "religion" which must be destroyed......Except our political "leaders".

Posted by: ooddballz at June 27, 2007 8:36 AM

what a quandary the muslim faces from moment of birth - then, upon facing reality - realizes he can never win and that his "religion" gives him only one other option
no wonder the world is faced with this problem

Posted by: TINBH at June 27, 2007 9:21 AM

From the article

INDONESIAN Muslim hardliners have called for the Australian-backed anti-terrorism squad Detachment 88 to be abolished because they say it is financed and trained by foreign countries to destroy Islam.

Don't be silly. We're just trained to destroy an evil ideology that justifies violence against unarmed civilians in the name of a deity that demands that all of humankind either submit to his bloodthirsty, misogenystic, and pedophilic ways or die, and that has been carrying out a murderous rampage since its inception 1400 years ago.

It's completely different.

Posted by: special_guest at June 27, 2007 10:27 AM

"Now the UK could implement plans to turn Islamic curriculum over to Muslims. In addition, universities are to be re-tailored to suit Muslims alone."

http://ummahnewslinks.com/2007/06/25/report-on-the-teaching-of-islam-in-universities.aspx

What is good for jihad, is what's good for Islam."

supercargo,

Britain's finest hour has clearly come and gone. It's now into its darkest.
Winston must be rolling over in his grave, along with all those valiant RAF pilots.

Posted by: rational at June 27, 2007 10:34 AM

"'The United States' war on terror, with the help of its sheriff, Australia, and deputy sheriff, Singapore, is a war against Islam.'

It most certainly is nothing of the kind. But this just shows that all the blather about the Religion of Peace, and all the efforts to emphasize that this is not a war against Islam, have accomplished nothing."
- posted by Robert

I've been thinking that it IS a war against Islam, but political correctness forbade using such a direct description. OK, if the war is not against Islam, is it against only jihad? Yet from what I read, jihad is CENTRAL to Islam and cannot be separated.

FWIW, I think the only hope is a Reformation within Islam. There is no other way it could be moderated to allow differing societies to live on the same planet.

Posted by: corax at June 27, 2007 4:22 PM

Islam has never had problem with wars at all as long as they were the type of wars the Kuran tells Muslims to start (the bad kind).

But it hasn't yet occurred to many of these Muslims that other kinds of wars are possible including wars that can that erase Islam and its evil networks of mass murder and mayhem off the face of our once-fair world (the GOOD kind!).

Posted by: pythagoras at June 28, 2007 3:17 PM