It's Beslan all over again.

Posted by: Cornelius at July 11, 2007 12:06 AM

Ah the brave jihadis, hiding behind the women and children.

Every last Saudi funded mosque in the West can have a red mosque tale.

To the Dems this does not exist. Why would anyone vote for their own destruction ? This is the most astonishing aspect of the present political currents. How can so many people be so blind to the challenge of this time ?

Posted by: dgene at July 11, 2007 12:15 AM

Cornelius

No, it ain't Beslan. At Beslan, the Russian schoolkids were involuntarily taken hostage, and most of the victims of that carnage were innocent. In this case, all the jihadis voluntarily occupied the mosque, and made it the center of their jihadi activity; what's more - the women & kids who went there did so because they support the imposition of shariah, and the jihad against the regime. So they aren't innocent women & children - they're guilty women & children. While I normally (and still) don't give 2 hoots about Musharraf, everybody killed in that mosque got what they deserved.

Don't insult the memory of the Beslan victims by equating them with these vermin - of all genders and ages.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at July 11, 2007 12:30 AM

Beslan was nothing like LaL Masjid.
It was a school where only psubjects like physics,maths were taught.
The school children of Beslan were innoncent and were taken hostage by force.

Lal Masjid was a place where hatred,jihad and probably weapons training took place.The children and Mothers besides the so called brave jihadis(hiding behind woman and children) were there of their own will and desire to be martyred. They were there by choice ,not by force.

So please do not compare the victimes of Beslan with the brainwashed dead of Lala Masjid,who prorbly found out after dying that theres no heaven for them as promised by the cleric.

Posted by: Rajesh_singh at July 11, 2007 12:39 AM

Remember the Muslim woman holding the sign:

"We hate Israel more than we love our children."

They are that sick.

Posted by: atheling at July 11, 2007 12:49 AM

Part of the reason they have so many offspring...replenishment of numbers, as it sure as hell isn't about "family values"...

Posted by: jcom972 at July 11, 2007 12:57 AM

What, guns and rpg's in the mosque? Outrageous, how did that happen...? The Red Mosque conflict is more like Waco Texas than Beslan...

Posted by: duh_swami at July 11, 2007 3:14 AM

Oh, just knock the place down on their heads already!

Posted by: joeblough at July 11, 2007 3:19 AM

Look out!They have peace-loving snipers in the minarets!

Posted by: savitch at July 11, 2007 3:36 AM

Infidel Pride

Children cannot be guilty for they hold no responsibility for their predicament and no proper understanding of the malignant and destructive forces that surround them both in and outside the mosque. We should hope for their liberation from their evil guardians and the wickedness of their imposed 'religion'.

Posted by: Dr.D. at July 11, 2007 4:15 AM

"However little is known about the fate of the women and children, amid growing fears about their fate."

......their fate?...honor killings comes to mind.....

"The children and Mothers besides the so called brave jihadis(hiding behind woman and children) were there of their own will and desire to be martyred. They were there by choice ,not by force."

....this is exactly correct....prior to the attack these same people were boasting on how the Shar'ia law imposed by this cleric and his followers were have great success in closing down Music shops, barber shops and other capitalistic enterprises...they laughed at the disappearance of Christians and they praised the Islamic cleric for making it all happen...

Their desire to be martyred may be fullfilled....

Islam is for losers...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at July 11, 2007 5:47 AM

Trained fighters?
Yes...run in to a bunker and hide, whilst shoving women and children in to the line of fire.
Allah must be wringing his hands in despair at the pathetic creatures who shout his name.

Well he would be, if he existed.

Posted by: Jihadtobejoking at July 11, 2007 6:35 AM

islamists using women and children as "human shields" that seem to be the litmus test if your a true blue blooded islamist male. cowards to the core. why dont they use tear gas? or somekind of gas like the Russians used in that theatre? l believe the Russians moved in quickly killed the sleepy terriorists, most of others survived. otherwise more children will be killed.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at July 11, 2007 6:37 AM

"Islamist fighters ... using women and children as human shields."
Brave Muslim warriors my ass! Craven knaves and cowards every one! May they roast slowly in Hell next to their false prophet.

Posted by: Timur at July 11, 2007 6:49 AM

" trained fighters,"??,,,more like trapped paranoid rats with guns....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at July 11, 2007 7:02 AM

May all their mosques be red......

Posted by: Timur at July 11, 2007 7:24 AM

OK troopers...watch for fleeing bearded men in burkas wearing hi heels....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at July 11, 2007 7:36 AM

"the mosque had been infiltrated by hard-core Islamic radicals"

Interesting choice of words...wasn't the place RUN by a "hard-core Islamic radical"?

Infidel Pride wrote:

"...they're guilty women & children."

The little children who were sent there for an "education" are NOT guilty of their actions subsequent to being inculcated with islamist orthodoxy...they do not have the strength or experience to resist that kind of indoctrination. An adult can become a frothing Scientologist after only a month of brainwashing...how much more vulnerable is a 10-year-old immersed in hate for 6 months?

Posted by: Godefroi at July 11, 2007 7:36 AM

'how much more vulnerable is a 10-year-old immersed in hate for 6 months?

Posted by: Godefroi "

....THE Muslim children are indoctrinated from birth and receive on going hate training until they die....In Iraq, the soldiers are encountering more and more 10 year old children firing AK47s and RPGs...perhaps the Muslims are running low on older students....BY the time a Muslim child is 10 years old, he already is willing to become a martyr....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at July 11, 2007 7:41 AM

Wait a minute, I thought that the mooslums keep telling us mosques are places of worship, mosques are to be respected, blah, blah blah... I supose someone missed the message..... what an insane cult!

Posted by: balticwaves at July 11, 2007 8:00 AM

exsgtbrown:

That's my point - they're often trained from infancy to hate 'the other' even when they don't live in a mosque...so if a normally peaceful child (that is, a normal child) is completely surrounded by such venom and all they hear all day, every day, is said hate, the rabid fervor making them beg for martyrdom will be that much worse.

But it isn't the fault of the child, rather the bastards who are teaching him.

Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

Posted by: Godefroi at July 11, 2007 8:18 AM

But it isn't the fault of the child, rather the bastards who are teaching him.-Godefroi

Your compassion towards these 'children' is understandable but unacceptable. Even if these 'children' are spared, they will continue to suckle at the teet of islam, regardless the division of Islam . . .it will always be the same supremacist ideological doctrine of dar ul'harb vs. dar ul'islam.

As often detailed on this site, various fractures within this belief system provide built in destructive mechanisms which should be encouraged to explode.

The explosive events, including the use of women and children, all enthusiastic shahids, at the red mosque are a natural consequence of islam taken to it's logical conclusion - in the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate - by muslims.

No need for unnecessary western guilt here.

Posted by: justamomof4 at July 11, 2007 9:34 AM

Thank you Dr D.

The idea that these children somehow voluntarily interposed themselves into harms way in this tragedy is just one more example of the extent to which the comments section here at JW has become a nexus for foaming-at-the-mouth bigots who despise Muslims of every age, shade and circumstance.

Infidel Pride endorses the killing of children, echoing the mindset of the Islamists themselves, that there is no such thing as human innocence. Where are his powers of discernment? Buried beneath an all-consuming hatred.

Another poster on another thread insists all Muslims are the same and attempting to discern between them is futile. There may be an element of truth to this when it comes to screening individuals (I support a moratorium on all Muslim immigration for example), but groups and governments have a track record and can be appropriately analyzed. To suggest that we should treat the governments of Tunisia and Iran identically because both are composed of Muslims is a willful ignorance that throws out the window any capacity for discernment.

No sir, these children did not deserve to die. As in Beslan, the fault lay not with the security forces, but with the terrorists, who made a conscious decision to use innocent children as human shields to further their political-religious agenda.

Posted by: Cornelius at July 11, 2007 9:57 AM

Cornelius,
I don't want to argue with anyone who has not lived within an islamic society. You said -

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/017339.php#c421107

Brother, you are wrong and you do not understand islam.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at July 11, 2007 10:02 AM

Arjun,

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I. But nobody can accuse me of being soft on Islam. I was sounding the warning bell long ago....at family gatherings and cock-tail parties all the way back to the mid 90s. For my troubles, I got mostly sarcastic smirks and rolling eyes...and some who stopped wanting to converse with me. It wasn't until after 9-11 that people in my circle finally began to listen.

I have followed developments around the world diligently ever since I was a teen....have read practically every anti-Jihadi tract written in that time (including all of Robert's books except 'Onward Muslim Soldier'). But I recognized Islam for its totalitarian essence....and despised the religion...long before I'd ever heard of Robert Spencer or Jihadwatch.

I'm human and have certainly made errors in judgment (just ask Hugh Fitzgerald). But no one is going to tell me that these children deserved to die....and if that's your position, then your hatreds have subsumed your humanity.

Posted by: Cornelius at July 11, 2007 10:15 AM

Watch out for the boobytrapped Korans!

Posted by: profitsbeard at July 11, 2007 11:06 AM

Although we in the West are vulnerable because of our weakness for "the children" - conferring all kinds of rights on them that are not recognized elswehere, we must remember that our survival is at stake. If American parents can stand the sight of their sons and daughters being buried in Arlington National Cemetary than we can certainly withstand the sight of these muslim children suffering and dying for their parents' whacky ideology disguised as a religion. Those children are not my responsibility and I care nothing for them. What kind of "religion" would allow or encourage a mother to allow her child to suffer in such a manner? I'm not saying they deserve to die, but it's not my hand with the knife at their throat. Our misplaced sympathies will be our ruin, yet.

Posted by: HOV Dummy at July 11, 2007 11:07 AM

Look out for the imam with the suicide vest!

Posted by: profitsbeard at July 11, 2007 11:28 AM

Cornelius ,
muslims program their children at early age to be killers. They make then saw off the heads of goats/sheep/camel/cows. islam is a cult.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at July 11, 2007 11:34 AM

There is no reason for any sane person to believe there are any "Innocents" left inside this Mosque Complex.

Everybody there was well aware of what was going on and their collective partisipation in it. They want the Pakistasni Goverment to Myrter them so the BBC can give them the Blanket of Innocence they are so richly undeserving of.

The BBC yesterday in a report on one hand told of the Women comming out of the Mosque Demonstrating in support and in the next Breath called these same Women "Innocent Hostages"???

Did these Women and Children decide to get two in the Chest and one in the Head over a couple in the Back?

Womans Liberation, Muslim style.

How much cheaper can a Womans Life get in Islam anyway?

Posted by: flowerknife_us at July 11, 2007 11:39 AM

And that is all that I can post right now. If you want to find humans among muslims, I think you will find sime. But most that I found were the imitators of of uswa hasana, al insan, al kamil.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at July 11, 2007 11:41 AM

"then your hatreds have subsumed your humanity."

no sir, our humanity is reserved for our own survival.

"we must remember that our survival is at stake."
-HOV Dummy

Perfect response . . .exactly right!

arjun - "muslims program their children at early age to be killers. They make then saw off the heads of goats/sheep/camel/cows"

don't forget, they also teach their children how to behead men

Posted by: miira at July 11, 2007 11:47 AM

justamomof4:

"Even if these 'children' are spared, they will continue to suckle at the teet of islam...The explosive events, including the use of women and children, all enthusiastic shahids, at the red mosque are a natural consequence of islam taken to it's logical conclusion - in the name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate - by muslims."

I do not disagree with you. I did not advocate trying to disengage the children with now-warped minds from some vain hope of rehabilitation. I said that they are not to blame for their predicament.

"No need for unnecessary western guilt here."

I have no feelings of guilt over this. Why would I?

It's a shame when a child is corrupted and killed, no matter whose child...especially when the corruptors are not. That's what I'm getting at.

Posted by: Godefroi at July 11, 2007 11:49 AM

Cornelius:

Losing one's humanity in wartime is a classic universal theme. You have a point, however we will wrestle with that and our consciences after this war is over.

Survival is first and foremost.

Posted by: atheling at July 11, 2007 11:50 AM

"Children cannot be guilty for they hold no responsibility for their predicament and no proper understanding of the malignant and destructive forces that surround them both in and outside the mosque."

This attitude is prevalent among many posters and it is normally a correct one. However, once they reach what Christianity taught us was "the age of reason" even children as young as seven years of age are able to distinguish right from wrong.

The children in this mosque may not have totally understood what was happening but the people who put them in that situation did and many of the values they were inculcating in those children were taught to them by their own parents. A love of martyrdom takes priority over serving your fellow man? Their own parents were raised to become vicious killers or taught to applaud acts of mass murder and to hate "the other".

These children should be considered collateral damage. The adults (including the women) put them in this situation and the adults should not have been allowed to escape in order to save the children, unless the goal was to remove the children from that environment, since the atmosphere they were being raised in was injurious to their health.

What about the ten year old girl who was angry because her parents "rescued" her from the mosque? She wasn't happy to be reunited with her parents. She was angry that they took what she saw as a "gift" away from her. Unless her parents are determined to make her see that martyrdom is not an act of love then she'll be back, at another day and time, to get her just reward. Children in Iran were made to run through the minefields during the war with Iraq. It's odd that suddenly Muslims are so worried about the danger faced by their children. It's a danger they created for them.

Whether some people like it or not, these children became weapons. Unless you think they can be safely disarmed, what option is there?

Posted by: PMK at July 11, 2007 11:57 AM

But it isn't the fault of the child, rather the bastards who are teaching him.

Godefroi,

"The bastards who are teaching him" were children themselves and they received the same kind of training. The parents who are reading the Koran to them had the same training.

According to your standards, every single one of them, from the toddler watching Farfur to the ninety-year-old, is brainwashed. Does that mean every single one is innocent? Even Naseem was once an innocent babe in her mother's arms. At what point does the child become responsible for himself?

Posted by: PMK at July 11, 2007 12:15 PM

Hmm...Hitler youth? Or brainwashed innocents?

If I could I would switch the children at the mosque with their parents, those who knowingly sent their children to a mosque that preached Jihad. But I can't. I hope the Mosque can prevent collateral damage. I think ZenaWarriorPrincess had a good idea with gas, as long as Pakistan does better than Russia to ensure that they have enough ambulances and units of antidote on hand.

But what can we throughout every corner of dar al-Islam where extremism reigns? Shall we kidnap the bottom-heavy section of the demographic pyramid? That's not possible. The fact that many Hitler youth, though not all, were fanatical to the point of death is an example of what to expect from those who have lived with the total belief system since birth that glorifies killing and dieing for the sake of Allah.

Posted by: npabga at July 11, 2007 12:32 PM

I can't help but think of Hugh's? article about the post-WWII Nazi terrorists, and our response in weeding out this group.

We constantly struggle with the extent to which we'd go under these circumstances...then allow someone else to commit the vile acts for us, like our military or law enforcement.

We may not have a chance to this time.

What are YOU willing to do if your country goes to Hell as the result of your Political Leaders' stupidity and inertia?

We can discuss at what point your enemy becomes your enemy, based on age or whatever, all we want. And we are always going to disgree on major or minor points.

But you still have to think about how far you're willing to go to survive. Even if it would make you sick, you have to consider your end-point.

I know mine.

I will look at each of them as if they are a serial rapist & murderer personally after my life.

Because I'm a woman and to survive, I've had to assume this of everyone and learn to trust my instincts. I've had no choice.

I think our humanity DOES depend on us questioning the treatment of these children, but our survival must come first, and most likely at a heavy price, before we can even BEGIN to do more than bemoan what they have become.

Posted by: Miss_Anthrope at July 11, 2007 12:49 PM

“What are YOU willing to do if your country goes to Hell as the result of your Political Leaders' stupidity and inertia?”

Get rid of the leaders responsible for stupidity and inertia. The only way to do that is through the democratic process. You start bombing Mosques and the government will hunt you down twice as hard as a Muslim burning a church. The majority must be subdued or the government loses its power.

“We can discuss at what point your enemy becomes your enemy, based on age or whatever, all we want. And we are always going to disagree on major or minor points.”

I agree completely, we are going to disagree because in my country no real responsibility is conferred until the age of sixteen. That is not to say the Muslim world hasn’t got power mad fifteen year old brainwashed nutters who need a good kicking. But younger children brainwashed into this crap don’t need to die, the evil scum that are doing the brainwashing do. They should be made to suffer in new and amazing ways for destroying the children of their own kind.

“But you still have to think about how far you're willing to go to survive. Even if it would make you sick, you have to consider your end-point.”

That’s simple, I will use my democratic right to resist until it is successful or exhausted and then I will take up arms. To be honest the only reason why we aren’t in a full scale war now is because the Islamists are crap at conventional war. If that changes then I suppose my end point could be 7.65mm wide.

I can't comment on a womans intuition bit, I'm a seventeen stone bloke with no idea.

Posted by: The Other Mert at July 11, 2007 1:27 PM

PMK:

"The age of reason" is indeterminate, ethereal. I have a 9-year-old child who has remarkable powers of deduction and stability, while my 12-year-old is easily swayed by any news of the moment.

I think most would agree that by the time one is, say, 16 (old enough to pilot 4000 lbs of rolling steel), one should have enough mental capacity to question what is being taught, to listen to the inner voice of curiosity, doubt, logic and make a determination in one's own mind and heart as to what is right and "true".

It is when one can make a conscious volitional choice about one's beliefs that the mantle of guilt or innocence is assumed and worn, and the consequences borne appropriately. I understand perfectly well who "those bastards" are, and I assert that at some point in their lives they chose to ignore that small voice of truth and cling to what they'd been taught (because it was safer and easier), to the detriment of their children. Again, the true guilt lies with the teachers.

I am not arguing for leniency. A combatant is a combatant, irrespective of age. If a 10-year-old attacked me with an automatic weapon, I would respond in kind...to do otherwise would be foolishness. This does not negate the fact that they're being thrust into this situation in the first place is, at a minimum, unfortunate and sad.

Posted by: Godefroi at July 11, 2007 1:56 PM

Cornelius, Dr D & Godefroi

Like you said, you're entitled to your opinion, and no, I don't doubt that you are genuinely opposed to Islam. But I'll maintain my original point that it is demeaning to the kids who died at Beslan, and equate their predicament to those at Islamabad who knew that there was a battle going on around the Lal Masjid, and despite that, either allowed, or worse, sent their children into that mosque.

In Beslan, while the Russian parents did send their kids to school, they would not have done it had they known what was in store for them. By contrast, the Pakis knew what their kids were getting into, and were perfectly okay in letting them be used as cannon fodder so that they could later on hurl accusations of takfir on the regime.

You are also ignoring some of the stories that came right out of that mosque - for example, one girl was lured out by her father on the pretext of her mom being sick, and once she found that out, she tried to get back in. While there may indeed have been really innocent kids in this mosque, a number of them were there voluntarily because they wanted to be shahids. If you have to sympathize with them because they are kids, do so by all means (I won't), but for heavens sakes, please don't equate them to infidel kids at Beslan, or anywhere else.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at July 11, 2007 2:12 PM

"I agree completely, we are going to disagree because in my country no real responsibility is conferred until the age of sixteen."
by The Other Mert

Maybe they won't try you as an adult until age sixteen, but there is still a juvenile justice system in most countries. Even if the punishment amounts to a slap on the wrist, children are not absolved of ALL responsibility for what they do. Even the ten year old knows it's wrong to steal. If the crime is severe enough the juvenile might yet be tried as an adult.

Whether it was religious indoctrination or brainwashing, these children were being taught to be enforcers.

According to the AP:

The extremists had been using the mosque as a base to send out radicalized students to enforce their version of Islamic morality, including abducting alleged prostitutes and trying to "re-educate" them at the compound.

If you're old enough to fight and kill for Allah, aren't you old enough to die for Allah? Those who would use you to kill have no business complaining about "the children".

Posted by: PMK at July 11, 2007 2:19 PM

"The age of reason" is indeterminate, ethereal.

Godefroi,

The "age of reason" is the eariest level of maturity. I am speaking of basic values here, of right and wrong. In my case, it was from the vantage point of a Catholic upbringing. It was the point at which GOD would begin to hold me responsible for my sins, not what the law would do. I wasn't yet an adult in the eyes of the church, but I was still responsible for my conduct.

Even for the atheist, there must be a point at which children are expected to have certain boundaries of right and wrong ingrained. Surely you trust your 12-year-old to make certain choices without you standing in the room. Your 9-year-old may be very bright but even deductive reasoning is no guarantee against your child taking the wrong path in life.

Again, I would suggest that you have inculcated ideas of right and wrong in both your children to the point where you are comfortable allowing them to make certain decisions on their own.

What ideas were inculcated into these children? Even in a Muslim society a child reaches a point where he is called on to make certain decisions without the imam or a parent standing nearby. They may not respect us but at some point they learn to respect their fellow Muslims and they are expected to follow a certain standard of behavior. That has to happen before the age of twenty-one.

Forget the law. It's not a matter of criminality. At what point do they begin to accept responsibility for their own actions? Regardless of what is in the Koran, I doubt that Muslim children are absolved of all wrongdoing simply because they are under the age of sixteen.

Posted by: PMK at July 11, 2007 2:55 PM

I agree that youngsters get borstal or even a slap on the wrist. When I was a kid I spent two weeks at Otterburn Army Camp with the cadets, it was a fortnight of mayhem and some vicious assaults. I can only imagine what a year in borstal is like.

But that doesn't mean they should be treated as enforcers. The people training them should be the ones getting in the neck.

If somebody asked me to kill a child, I would more likely want to kill them for asking.

Recently the Taliban sent a child in a suicide vest against an ANA checkpoint. The child didn't detonate, instead he looked confused and the army disarmed him (I'll try to find a link).

They use children as weapons, we all know that.

Posted by: The Other Mert at July 11, 2007 2:57 PM

"I can't comment on a womans intuition bit, I'm a seventeen stone bloke with no idea."

-The Other Mert

Good one...I'm short and look like I weigh 95 lbs. soaking wet!

I guess it's a good thing I can:

-leg press over 300 lbs.
-run FAST
-fit into crawl spaces
-shoot VERY WELL
-am ANGRY, and
-know 'mine' enemy

Good thing my hubby's 17 stone like you...it's a good combination, and he's a great shot too.

I just hope it's enough.

Posted by: Miss_Anthrope at July 11, 2007 3:16 PM

Infidel Pride:

"please don't equate them to infidel kids at Beslan, or anywhere else"

I didn't, though that may have been the impression. Beslan was an atrocity, completely different.

As to that story, I thought I had linked to it. I wasn't ignoring it, rather it added to my point.

"Holed up inside the complex behind the lines of troops and razor wire, the children – many of them girls whose families had sent them to the mosque to receive a strict Islamic education – repeatedly rejected relatives’ entreaties to leave before a threatened army onslaught"

"In barely eight weeks, Saima had been transformed from a religious but fun-loving girl to a jihadi, grimly craving martyrdom"

PMK

"...the point at which GOD would begin to hold me responsible for my sins"

Posted by: Godefroi at July 11, 2007 3:19 PM

OT:

What's "17 stone"?

Posted by: Godefroi at July 11, 2007 3:21 PM

Lol sorry,

17 Stone is 238lb in your money I think.

Posted by: The Other Mert at July 11, 2007 3:27 PM

I should've helped on that too, since I'm a Yank.

1 stone = 14 lbs. (so 17 = 238)

Sorry 'bout that! :)

Posted by: Miss_Anthrope at July 11, 2007 3:30 PM

PMK wrote:
"What ideas were inculcated into these children? Even in a Muslim society a child reaches a point where he is called on to make certain decisions without the imam or a parent standing nearby. They may not respect us but at some point they learn to respect their fellow Muslims and they are expected to follow a certain standard of behavior. That has to happen before the age of twenty-one."

Unfortunately, that is not true. I have been working in Saudi Arabia for a few years. In many malls and shopping centers, security guards will not allow young Saudi males to enter without their families. They simply do not know how to act in public away from their families. This is a symptom of a larger problem.

From what I have seen, there is a genuine shortage of self-discipline. Discipline needs to be imposed from above - family, government, religion. I have Saudi co-workers that believe that the first thing I do when I get off the plane at home is to get blind, stinking drunk - because in my place they would.

I cannot convince them that just because I am free to, I should.

Posted by: jay at July 11, 2007 5:07 PM

Jay,

You have a point. When people live under a totalitarian system (political or religious) they abdicate self responsibility.

They don't know how to handle freedom. Look at freshmen in college. They go nuts.

Posted by: atheling at July 11, 2007 5:15 PM

Jay,

I had a client with experience in the ME who once told me the reason Muslim men tend to be so violent and intolerant is that they are over-indulged from an early age by their mothers, whose only vehicle for self-empowerment in such an anti-female society is on the coat-tails of their sons. While the girls in the family slave, these boys are spoiled to excess, with all the attending sociological repercussions that follow. As they grow up, their expectations of a similarly accommodating world are shattered by cold, hard reality, and so they direct the frustrations of their impotence at the culturally acceptable "usual suspects"...infidels, Zionists, etc.

Posted by: Cornelius at July 11, 2007 5:28 PM

Forgive me if i don't shed any tears or feel any pity for any of them.

The women and children ,if killed, are probably better off.They are free now.

The "brave and heroic mighty warriors" died like they lived using women and children.These cowardly flies haven't a manly bone in thier body as is seen in thier every action.I am glad they are gone.

This should be a sign for all those women and children like all the other signs in years past.Get out of islam and reclaim yourselves,if for no other reason than your children.

These "mighty,heroic,lions and martyrs" care about nothing but saving thier won hides.They are cowards like no other cowards to be found.

Anyone so happy to meet death and willing to take as many as they can with them even thier own flesh and blood are afraid of life,hasn't learned how to live.Of course when they are taught from day one to embrace death and wish for it what can you expect.

Islam is for losers and for failures.These people are bred by scared and trembling "men" who breed nothing but scared and trembling "men".

There is nothing devine to be found in islam and there certainly is nothing that hints at peace.We won't even talk about love for another.

If they wish so much for the fast track to paradise then why not just kill the babies as soon as they are born?Only the devil could wish so much for his children as islam can only grant those wishes.

They have already lost and don't even realize it.Even if they took the whole world,they lose.

Posted by: Dar al-harb at July 11, 2007 6:04 PM

So far the body count is at least 106. I just hope the majority of them were terrorists and not kids.
"At least 106 dead at Pakistan mosque"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070711/ap_on_re_as/pakistan_radical_mosque

One hundred six bottles of beer on the wall,
One hundred six bottles of beer...
Take one down and pass it around
One hundred five bottles of beer on the wall....

Posted by: Timur at July 11, 2007 6:48 PM

Cornelius:

That's exactly IT. Muslim men (and many Asian men as well) are coddled and indulged so they grow up to be arrogant, lazy and abusive.

Posted by: atheling at July 11, 2007 6:59 PM

The use of hostages, of whatever sort, is one of the favorite tactics of the jihaddis, for the good and simple reason that it is effective, reliable and widely applicable.

Most of the other moralities of the world uphold human life as the supreme value and have grave strictures, sanctions and reservations about killing anybody under any circumstances.

It is a nearly surefire method of disarming almost any enemy at nearly no cost.

=============

What is worse:

Asserting the alleged requirement to positively protect the "innocent", particularly children, is a favorite technique of anti-western agitators in general.

It is an effective technique for getting the average westerner to question their own moral standing, and thus to blunt the force of their moral convictions.

You will not assert your right to fight if you are questioning whether you aren't "just as bad" as the guys on the other side.

You will not act with certainty and speed, if you are in doubt about whether you are doing the right thing.

And that is the pay-off.

To make the westerner hesitate. To make the westerner confused.

Works like a charm!

===================

The question is how to assign moral responsibility, and what is one's moral responsibility.

The welfare of children is the moral responsibility of their parents or guardians. Period.

The responsibility of the victims of aggression is to defend themselves. Period.

And yes it really is a "black-and-white" issue.

If parents allow their children to consort with jihaddis, they themselves are placing their children in harm's way and the responsibility is theirs.

The defender, the one fighting the jihaddis, may for sentimental reasons want to exert themselves on the children's behalf. But there is no moral responsibility to protect those children. Their moral responsibility is to protect themselves.

===============

You will note that the jihaddis themselves have no problem whatsoever condemning the innocent civilians of infidel cultures for simply being members of those cultures.

They are that certain.

And in a fight over morality the person who is most certain wins.

If you have any doubt about that last point, consult any half-way decent history book, or your Bible.

===============

The point at which the jihaddis succeed in getting the majority of the west to doubt their own moral standing, to become deeply uncertain, at that point they will have won.

Whether it is in the fight for a single building, a nation or the world.

Count on it. They will never doubt themselves!

Not unless we make them.

Posted by: joeblough at July 11, 2007 7:09 PM

Other Mert - You are dead right about using children as weapons. During the Iran-Iraq War, the Iranians formed companies of adolescent boys who were sent trotting ahead of the regular infantry to clear the Iraqi minefields. Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Posted by: MP at July 11, 2007 7:38 PM

I read BBC to see what muslims in Europe and Pakistan were saying about this.

Most all of them blamed the goverment for not negotiating or just blamed the goverment.

Others said muslims should not kill muslims. They state it would have been ok for the goverment to kill non-muslims, but not muslim-muslim.

I find it interesting that the masses forget so quickly, that it was the muslims in the Red Mosque that...

kidnapped muslim police
killed muslim police
used muslim women and children as human shields
held captive muslim women and children
threatened the muslim goverment with killings

And they say muslims should not kill muslims when the goverment does it, but it is ok when a religous person does it because he can explain why he (the perpetrator) was justified in killing the victim.

Oh, and by the way....the Red Mosques' last compound had one last building where all the killings took place.......it was a madrassas. Didn't a Pakistani goverment official state last years that there were no militant madrassas in Pakistan?

Can the same goverment official explain why this madrassas had weapons, rpg's, ammo, booby traps, bombs and C4? Or does that mean it is still a 'moderate' madrassas? I would hate to see what a militant madrassas looks like.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at July 11, 2007 10:16 PM

A piece I wrote right after Beslan. Applies to these slimes as well for using women and children to hide themeselves.

Will Beslan Awaken Us?

Sleep used to come so easily. Now he comes only as would the failed Patron Saint of Beslan, timid and not at all sure that he will be able to fulfill his obligation. I try to drag Sleep out of his hiding and force him to do his job, but he is impatient and very edgy when he does come. His visits are fleeting, like a small wild kitten that you cannot quite touch even if you feed him. Any interruption (such as a bathroom visit) causes him to retreat for the night, looking for more certain and less turbulent souls to call upon.

Sleep is afraid of the images slowly advancing across my mind. Children, covered with blood, naked and eagerly drinking from bottles of water because some Islamic fanatic has made them drink their own urine for 3 days. Bombs rigged to basketball goals. Russian soldiers with cigarettes hanging as lifelessly as the little ones they carry out of the gym, their eyes hollow with disbelief at their task. A tiny cross in a dirty and bloody palm. I could go on, but you have all seen them and if they do not haunt you as they do me, then you are already dead. At least on the inside.

Then there are more images that the terrorists took themselves, of themselves; gymnasium-long blood stains running two feet wide through the middle of hundreds of kids who should have, at that particular time, been learning to add and subtract. Pictures of children shot in the back as they attempted to flee when the explosives detonated. Another witness who told of his friend who was run through with a bayonet for asking for a drink

My mind cannot grasp the images that we have not been shown of the terrorists filming themselves raping the children and forcing the parents to watch. If Sleep knew of these images or that their unseen hauntings are what are keeping me from embracing him, he would likely never come again.

Then my mind drifts from the far-away to the close-to-home and I try not to picture my own future grandkids (or any other children) in the same horrible circumstances. But, try as I might, my intuition tells me that it is only a matter of time. When I have previously discussed airplanes and air travel with my friends and family, I have always told them “Forget the airplanes, the next attack will be on a soft target like a school.” Right target. Wrong country…for now. We too, are very vulnerable in that area of our culture.

There are so many of these soft targets that it is hard to pick the most vulnerable. Hospitals, amusement parks, non-secured areas of an airport, and voting locations are all areas where law abiding citizens are not allowed to carry firearms. Only the terrorists will have the weapons in these areas. I hope your unarmed combat skills are finely tuned and work well against bullets and bombs!

For all of you with whom Sleep is still a friend, it is time to wake up.

Are you and your family prepared? What can you do? One thing to do is talk to your school administrators and make sure that your children’s schools are locked up tight. In Beslan, the terrorists drove up to the front of the school and stormed the building. Ask the principal how he would handle a Beslan style attack. Better yet, ask the Security office in the local school district. The answers (if you get any) will probably scare you into home schooling your kids. Do you think your school is a safe zone because there is a “Gun Free Campus” sticker on the door? Get your head out of your proverbial backside!

Another thing. We as a nation are blinded by the politically correct crowd who have decimated our ability to pay special attention to those most likely to do us harm: Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40. Do all that you can to make sure these idiotic laws are overturned. They are going to get our kids killed.

Terrorist scenes are nothing new. However, with notable exceptions, few of them involve direct attacks upon the children of their assumed enemy. That difference may be the one thing that our busyness and preference for prosperity over terrorist worries cannot push to the back of our minds. THEY HAVE ATTACKED CHILDREN!

Let that soak in for few days and then find your anger.

Posted by: WhiteWolf at July 12, 2007 11:57 AM