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Here is another apt demonstration of the paranoid mindset and hatred of unbelievers -- especially Jews -- which jihadists can capitalize on in their recruits. But this article's central weakness is its author's lack of engagement with the text of the Qur'an: He notes how the failed bomber learned to recite from the Qur'an in Arabic, and had to take the Taliban's word for what it said, but proceeds on the apparent assumption that the Qur'an must not say what the Taliban told the bomber it does.
By Robert Baer for Time:
Last week, at the Directorate of National Intelligence in Kabul, I met a failed suicide bomber. Arrested two weeks before in Jalalabad, preparing to assassinate the governor of Nangahar Province, Farhad was setting outside of Pakistan's Waziristan Province for the first time.
Only 17, he was terrified. Not only because of an uncertain fate, but perhaps more so because the world was not as the Taliban had described it. The Taliban indoctrinated him well, convincing him the Americans were stealing the faith of Afghan Muslims. Turning them into kafirs. I asked him if he hated the governor. No, it was simply that in working with the Americans he'd fallen away from Islam. He deserved to die.
It was immediately clear this kid was ignorant of the world; the boundaries of his village were his world. I asked him if he'd heard of Iraq. He had, but when I asked him if he could point it out on a map, he said he couldn't. The same with Palestine. I doubt that he'd ever seen a map.
That raised the question what he knew about Islam. When I asked he said he'd read the Quran. I asked it him if he understood it. He shook his head. It was then it became apparent his education went no farther than the madrassa - he was taught to recite the Quran in Arabic but did not understand a word. Other than what he was told.
And this is where the Taliban came in. Spotting him in the village mosque, they invited him to attend what can only be called an indoctrination course in Waziristan. There he was taught that suicide bombers go directly to heaven, where they're met by virgins and lush gardens. Farhad was also taught that any Muslim working with the Americans in Afghanistan was no longer a Muslim, but a "munafiq" [hypocrite], a pretend Muslim. It was written in the Quran, Farhad was assured.
Here is some of what the Qur'an says to that effect:
Bear unto the hypocrites the tidings that for them there is a painful doom; Those who chose disbelievers for their friends instead of believers! Do they look for power at their hands? Lo! all power appertaineth to Allah. (4:138- 39)
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (5:51)
The article continues:
Even I, who have tried to get a grip on Muslim suicide bombing, was stunned by the depth of the brainwashing. I'd never seen anything like it. So I asked the question, What religion is Musharraf, the president of Pakistan? He's a Jew, the Taliban had assured Farhad.
No wonder Farhad agreed to go to Jalalabad to kill a fellow Muslim. Still, wasn't there a doubt in his mind about taking his life like that and who knows how many others? No. The Taliban had told him that when he pushed the button on his suicide vest, it was Allah then who would decide whether to summon him to heaven or not.
Earlier that day I'd visited NATO headquarters to talk to an American Marine colonel who tracks suicide bombings and improvised explosive devices. He came straight to the point: neither military force nor intelligence is going to stop suicide bombings. Only "mitigate" them. What NATO is pressing the Afghans to do is to deindocrinate young men like Farhad. But how do you get someone like Farhad, who may never have seen a map, change his radical worldview?
To answer Baer's rhetorical question, it certainly is quite impossible if one is unwilling to address Islamic teachings about armed jihad and unbelievers head-on.
Posted by Marisol at July 22, 2007 8:27 AM
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It's amazing how credulous some people can be. Now I understand why spam scammers keep at it.
I agree that it would certainly help to understand the doctrinal bases of these beliefs, but people still have to swallow the doctrine, and that's a big gulp.
I have some familiarity with magazine journalists. They're usually hired more for their writing ability than for their knowledge of certain subjects. For example, I was shocked to learn that many boating magazine writers have little background in boats. That's why it's always a good idea to consult the experts if you want to find out about something in depth, like Jihad Watch.
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at July 22, 2007 8:55 AM
No, it was simply that in working with the Americans he'd fallen away from Islam. He deserved to die.
When we think of Islam we think of a faith that brings comfort to a billion people around the world. Billions of people find comfort and solace and peace. And that's made brothers and sisters out of every race -- out of every race.
America counts millions of Muslims amongst our citizens, and Muslims make an incredibly valuable contribution to our country. Muslims are doctors, lawyers, law professors, members of the military, entrepreneurs, shopkeepers, moms and dads. And they need to be treated with respect
It was immediately clear this kid was ignorant of the world; the boundaries of his village were his world.
Put the kid on Airforce One and pay for his trip to the Whitehouse so bush can have a friendly fireside chat with him at American taxpayer expense. Heck, he might even be given a job at the Whitehouse that Americans don't want or are too stupid to do.
At least give the kid a laptop with internet access and point him to
http://www.whitehouse.gov/query.html?col=colpics&qt=islam
But who knows, maybe the kid will turn the tables and convince bush to join the jihad himself and become a martyr for islam.
Posted by: witness at July 22, 2007 9:17 AM
Jewdog comment is interesting, but i went to the Time website, and Robert Baer is something of a former CIA officer. So i dont think he was hired by Time for his writing skills. My guess is that there are som censorship in mainstream media, because media filter for various reasons what to say. Just look at the New York Times: untill 2004 the paper policy was not to describe the armenian genocide in 1915 as a "genocide". Lets just speculate what Time policy is about writing about the Quran.
Posted by: GeneralObserver at July 22, 2007 9:33 AM
Simple.
Keep them stupid, poor and indoctrinate them with Muhammads jihad garbage and you'll end up with a hundreds of millions of zombies who believe in killing and dying for the 72-year old virgin. But what if that virgins turn out to be Araf*ck in drag?
What a proposition!
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at July 22, 2007 9:42 AM
There is brainwashing from both,the reporter and the failed suicide bomber, first the reporter thinks that ignorance of aworld map, etc makes a terrorist. Many of the islamists come from very educated backgrounds, who do read and understand Arabic. To the suicide bomber, l give him more leeway as he is ignorant non arab muslim who is young and made impressionable by his taliban immans and brothers. The biggest error of this reporter is he himself is ignorant of the islam and its teachings from the koran and hadiths coming from muslim scholars. That to me is the biggest failure coming from govenment and media elites, total ignorance of islam.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at July 22, 2007 9:43 AM
Giving the kid $2,000.00 and sending him back home after his 15 minutes of fame expire sure isn't gonna solve anything. If anything he'll be debriefed and serve as a source for "lessons learned", teaching future exploders how to avoid the mistakes he made.
It is after all possible this young man could be made to question his teachings and actions but once he returns to be reindoctrinated in Quedastan he'll soon get over all that.
at July 22, 2007 9:43 AM
Graduating Bomber to trainer. 'For all the good reasons that you taught me, Abu, I will give my life to Allah. But we can kill twice as many if we both go'.
Trainer...'Thats a great idea, wish I would have thought of it'. 'OK, you go first, and I will follow you'.
You betchum long rider...And the big guy says to the little guy 'You see that cop standing over there'?
Little guy, 'yup'.
Big guy, 'You go over there and kick him right square on the arse, and if he says anything to you about it, you send him over here to me'.
Barnum said it, 'There is a sucker born every day'.
The Talibanish trainers have been studying Barnum...
at July 22, 2007 9:43 AM
It was immediately clear this kid was ignorant of the world; the boundaries of his village were his world.
In one sentence, Baer has defined the leftists.
Bravo.
All though, this 17 year old probably has a bit more class.
Posted by: infidel! at July 22, 2007 10:02 AM
People don’t choose a religion, they are born into it. It is almost like a football fans: from father to son. Most go on for life without questioning their own religion and some study to justify all the garbage was put in their heads so it produces less odor.
Ideology breads fanatics. Any ideology. And every ideology produces martyrs.
Don’t be surprised at the ignorance of those people. I would be surprised if a suicide bomber is a scholar. To “de-indoctrinate” those people is an impossible task. Don’t go after them, go after the ideology. Do not hope one day they will become Christians. It is almost like hope that Manchester United fans will support Liverpool. Football hooligans make trouble and we close the stadiums. No matter that most of fans did not do anything illegal. How about closing mosques? A suicide bomber is a hero in his village, in his town. Punish the relatives, friends, the hole village or town and if you want to eradicate the problem entirely – punish Islam. We can not stop people to believe in Allah but we can make them to pay for it.
Unfortunately, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. When “war on terror” was announced it rang a bell – “war on drugs”. Both “wars” could have been won in a matter of weeks or a few months and yet it is drugging on and on. Someone in high places benefits from both “wars”.
at July 22, 2007 10:20 AM
duh_swami - PT Barnum said "There's a sucker born every MINUTE." Not "day," - MINUTE! LOL!
Posted by: darcy at July 22, 2007 10:29 AM
The author of the article wrote Sleeping With the Devil, a compelling (and non-partisan) evisceration of US government officials' corruption with Saudi Arabia:
http://www.amazon.com/Sleeping-Devil-Washington-Saudi-Crude/dp/1400050219
at July 22, 2007 10:35 AM
The Afghans alone can't "deindocrinate young men like Farhad". This is a problem for ISLAM and it is a problem for all Muslims, including those who absolve themselves of responsibility for such men because they consider themselves CULTURAL MUSLIMS.
Mr. Baer seems to imply that this young man cannot be held fully responsible for what he wants to do. That may be true, but that doesn't make him any less dangerous. A seventeen-year-old can still kill.
What's next? Are we to bring Farhad to the US so he can learn the truth about the West? We've been doing that for decades and what has it gotten us?
There's only one thing to do with an infectious disease that is fatal to all it comes in contact with: you isolate the carrier.
Posted by: PMK at July 22, 2007 10:40 AM
PONG: Ideology breads fanatics. Any ideology. And every ideology produces martyrs.
That's to absolute for me Pong. I might agree if you said some ideologys produce some fanatics, and possibly some martyrs.
You are suggesting that all ideology's are harmful, even evil. I suppose you are refering to Islam, and used that remark to spread the charges out a little for fairness purposes. Well, in this case fairness is not called for. The evil of Islam is not activated by the book alone. The individual is also responsible for carrying out the directions within.
I dont think it would be profitable to 'go after' a billion muslims, but to 'go after' the driving force of this evil ideology, which are Imams, Mufti. Mullah, and Ayatollahs is profitable. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with attacking wrong headed ideology with truth and facts, it is done here on a daily basis...
at July 22, 2007 10:55 AM
Darcy...you are right...It was a test to see if you were alert...you passed with flying colors...lol.
Actually, I should probably sharpen my Barnum skills. If I do the math, I am missing almost 1500 suckers a day.
No wonder I cant make any money at it...
at July 22, 2007 11:09 AM
"He's a Jew, the Taliban had assured Farhad.
"No wonder Farhad agreed to go to Jalalabad to kill a fellow Muslim."
He's a Jew? Oh, well, no wonder you want to murder him...
(Perhaps the writer didn't intend it but that's how it comes across to me.)
So this particular wannabe jihadist was an uneducated dupe.
What about the successful and failed jihadists who were well-educated professionals who most certainly could find "Palestine" on a map?
Why, after what just happened in London and Glasgow, are we being encouraged to pity the poor, backwards, terrified, manipulated boy?
I don't care what someone is told, or how well they score on world affairs quizzes, murder is murder and it is wrong.
Robert Baer's starting assumption is incorrect: that there is nothing in the Koran to justify active, military jihad and only uneducated Muslims would fall for the Taliban's lies. I wonder if the answer, for Mr. Baer, would be for the Western world to fund and build "correct" madrassas and mosques.
Posted by: Josephine at July 22, 2007 11:12 AM
I think the ramificatons if Baer pointed out that the Quran itself was the problem, not the boy interpretation of it, will be to great. And its indeed very unpleasant to face up to reality, because it put questions to wether a democracy in Afghanistan is possible and if there is anything the West can do to stop terrorism.
Posted by: GeneralObserver at July 22, 2007 11:49 AM
We are thoroughly infiltrated. Moslems are on the staff of major newspapers (I got a subscription notice the other day from NYT, moslem is the head of new subscriptions) and in the works of news channels. That is why we see the phrases about how "Islam brings peace to billions"
Posted by: interestinconundrum at July 22, 2007 12:00 PM
PONG: Ideology breads fanatics.
Too bad you didn't post that at LGF, it would be a "revolving title".
at July 22, 2007 12:08 PM
I would appreciate any feedback regarding this article.
Unwarranted Attack on Diana West
This was in response to a post on Small Wars Journal.
Posted by: Pierre Legrand at July 22, 2007 12:09 PM
PRAY FOR THE CHILDREN
TO say that Farhad was a victim of exploitation and manipulation would be way too trite and impotent. Think about what the Taliban has done to this kid with the use of the Koran. He was at an age (17) where he's supposed to have everything going for him, finding his place among other students, learning how to become independent, growing in his education, courting. Instead, the Taliban turned him into a demonic robot bent on mass murder.
The Koran is sick and corrosive. Allah is actually Satan. By their fruits you shall know them.
Posted by: Tookson at July 22, 2007 12:25 PM
But how do you get someone like Farhad, who may never have seen a map, change his radical worldview?
++++++++++++++
the problem that we have with the war in the Middle East is political correctness........
correctness never wins a war..........
wars are won by killing all of the enemy that can be killed and destroying the enemy's capabilities of waging war wherever these capabilities are.
war is coming to your town in America because our politicians do not have the courage that existed in America after December 7, 1941........
September 11 is a forgotten memory to America's politicians. the majority of todays American politician is to line their and their families pockets and get reelected........... regardless of the threat to America and Americans.
the defeat of the amnesty bill happened because the common American stood up and yelled and screamed at our politicians with emails, telephone calls, faxes and personal visits so they would understand that the common American that elects these fools in Washington were not going to accept this selling out of our America.........
the war on terrorism will be won when we take the war to islamofascism across the globe and leave no village or city standing that supports or houses islamofascists, leave no mosque standing that states to destroy the non-believer, leave no business open that provides funds to the islamofascists...............
kill your enemy and destroy their means to wage war and the war will be over..........
God bless America Israel England Canada Australia Darfur and our fighting forces across the world, keep us free and destroy our enemies.
The Texican.
Live Free and Die Free.
God Family America Freedom the only choice at any cost.
at July 22, 2007 12:42 PM
'But how do you get someone like Farhad, who may never have seen a map, change his radical worldview?'
With a 308 caliber hole in his forehead.
And a placard on his corpse reading:
"I listen to the Imam and all I got was this lousy bullet hole."
Posted by: infidel! at July 22, 2007 12:50 PM
OT, but grim news from Turkey. Looks like the Islamists have a parliamentary majority. Gimme that ole time religion, folks! Yahoo, Jihad!
Now, what was it that brought on Ataturk in the first place? Whatever it was is no longer there.
at July 22, 2007 12:55 PM
Baer is a former CIA spook and field operative and knows the Islamic world pretty damn well.
Get him on some of the conservative talk shows and he most assuredly doesn't come off as naieve about Islam.
The problem is that he can't really speak his mind in Time magazine without the censor's knife being wielded. So he plays the credulous American.
Look there is no way Time would ever print a article that points to the Koran and the hadiths as the fuel for the engine of jihad.
They'll eviscerate Christians and Jews to be sure but Muslims are off limits.
at July 22, 2007 1:05 PM
Mr. Baer,
could you point out where Palestine is located.
Thanks!
at July 22, 2007 1:14 PM
CLOSE ALL MOSQUES--SAYS ITALIAN POLITICIAN
Posted by Gandalf at 22 Jul 2007, 5:39 PM and is filed under uncategorized
ROME, July 22 (Reuters) - A Moroccan imam arrested in Italy and suspected of running a "terrorism school" in his mosque had a variety of toxic chemicals at his home which could have been used to make explosives, police said on Sunday.
Roberto Calderoli, an opposition member of Italy's upper house for the anti-immigration Northern League, said all Italy's mosques should be closed and allowed to reopen only after they had been checked for illegal activity.
"As we don't know where's the baby and where's the bathwater, the only thing to do is to close all the mosques and reopen them only after accurate inquiries and checks," he said. (Additional reporting by Massimiliano Di Giorgio)
http://uppompeii1.uppompeii.com/2007/07/22/close-all-mosquessays-italian-politician.aspx
Link to the Reuters original at the above site.
At last a politician is espousing the only way that Jihad can be made to stop in the West - no Muslims in the West, means no Jihad from within. Any externally sourced Jihad can be regarded as war, and dealt with accordingly in the normal method of war, rather the PC war that we engage in these days.
Posted by: DP111 at July 22, 2007 1:44 PM
DP111
As long as Islam exists in the West so does jihad.
at July 22, 2007 1:54 PM
"Allah is actually Satan. By their fruits you shall know them."
Tookson, dead on straight! What is Satan? What do we know about him? It's said that the smartest thing he ever did was convince people he doesn't exist. But he surely does exist, and Islam is the concrete and outward expression of Satan worship in this world. Look at what Islam stands for:
1) one world government, which needs to be established in order to usher in the reign of anti-Christ,
2) oppressive Sharia law that controls every aspect of an individual's life, and total disregard for the inherent rights of the individual,
3) death to anyone who changes their mind and seeks to leave Islam,
4) institutional slavery,
5) denial of rights to women and minorities,
6) forced prayer five times a day,
7) torture, mutilation and death for any who oppose Islam,
8) lower status to those who are not Muslims.
These things are the opposite of what Christ teaches, i.e., freedom to choose by the individual, including whether to worship the true God or not, the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves (but our choice whether to obey or not,) kindness towards our enemies, patience in affliction, respecting our neighbors rights, property, marriage, etc., treating all humans equally, but again, all of these are our choice to do or not to do.
Satan has long been looking for forced worship of himself, ever since he fell from heaven. And he's been looking for ways to hurt God by destroying us. whom God loves. Now through Islam and at a time in history when so many of us have abandoned the God of love to do what we want to do, Satan has found the perfect expression of this worship through the cruelty, and the absolute obedience or destruction of the individual that we find in Islam. In fact, if you read the Koran and substitute the word Satan for the word Allah, it will all start to make much better sense.
God creates and Satan destroys. And he continues to destroy our people and our world, whether those people believe in him or not. If we can acknowledge that he exists, that is a first step to being able to sit down and formulate a plan that will allow us to eradicate, or at least seriously diminish, his influence in our world. Just think of all the Muslims who might be saved, as well as those they force to convert, if we did.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 22, 2007 2:06 PM
Isabella
You might be interested in these links since you believe Allah is Satan.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/index.htm
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch05_comparing_the_biblical_antichrist.htm
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Authors/JR/Future/ch18_a_summary_of_comparisons.htm
You are more correct than you know
at July 22, 2007 2:15 PM
Why not bring him to the U.S. and resettle him in Dearborn, Michigan, where he can join a Mosque and learn the real meaning of Islamic scripture? Or, better yet, send him to the U.K. where he's sure to learn about the true, peaceful nature Islam.
Posted by: rational at July 22, 2007 2:15 PM
I've taken issue once in the past with the notion of identifying Allah with the devil; I thought I might air those concerns again.
Primarily, I find it problematically imprecise, given that the use of "Allah" by Jews and Christians in the Middle East predates its use by Muslims to designate the entity that they believe issued the Qur'an to Muhammad. If one sees him or herself as sympathetic to the plight of persecuted, Arabic-speaking non-Muslim religious minorities, "Allah is Satan" is not putting one's best foot forward.
In addition, it can put a stop to a more meaningful exchange, just as the discussion in which one accuses a Christian of worshipping three gods can be ended with "No, no I don't." And a spiral of unproductive mudslinging can result. ("Oh, yeah? Well you worship the devil!" "Well, you worship 3 gods!" "Well...,")
Not to mention that the argument that goes along the lines of "My religion says that their religion..." depends on the listener being receptive to the views of your religion, and, by extension, what the religion may define as "satanic."
The much more productive course of action is to engage the texts themselves-- Qur'an, tafsir, Sira, ahadith. The listener can either look for a refutation in the text, accuse you of lying (or cherry-picking, having a faulty translation, etc.), or perhaps even admit that they don't really believe whatever the topic at hand is.
But in that situation, they are the ones who are challenged to defend specific aspects of Islamic teachings.
Posted by: MarisolJW at July 22, 2007 2:57 PM
"As long as Islam exists in the West so does jihad." Elric66
In complete agreement with you except I would be inclined to delete "in the West" and let the rest stand as you wrote it.
Posted by: Wellington at July 22, 2007 3:02 PM
"As long as Islam exists in the West so does jihad." Elric66
In complete agreement with you except I would be inclined to delete "in the West" and let the rest stand as you wrote it.
Posted by: Wellington [TypeKey Profile Page] at July 22, 2007 3:02 PM
Good point. My first concern is getting Islam out of the West. After that, we can concentrate on Islamic world.
at July 22, 2007 3:06 PM
I guess this writer is very sophisticated, but the fact remains that probably no mainstream publication will permit an honest discussion of Islamic sources as being the source of the trouble, as someone has already pointed out.
Posted by: jewdog at July 22, 2007 3:16 PM
Is Allah God?
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/Does_Allah_mean_God.Islam
Posted by: Elric66 at July 22, 2007 3:19 PM
Lets not get side tracked by a young Jihadi who didn't know much about the world. The fact is Jihadies appear to crawl out from all walks of life. Don't forget the recent car-bombing crazies were doctors; 9/11 terrorists had their education in Germany and here.
Jihad is defined by Muslims as sure way to paradise promised by the mother of all Ts, the big Mo.
Jihad targets non-Muslims aimed at terrorizing infidels, and spreading Islam. I do not believe any different interpretations of it, especially the concocted stories told by them and some media, Jihad is an inner-struggle... my ass.
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy at July 22, 2007 3:28 PM
Elric66: I'm with you. First, Islam out of the West (or at least extremely marginalized). Then we can figure out what to do with it elsewhere, huge burden that it long will be. Oh, by the way, to your query respecting whether Allah is God, my response would be the following: I don't for one moment think that Islam is the true religion, but assuming just for argument's sake it is, then this is a very creepy universe and God's a jerk. (I also want to make it crystal clear that I would not denigrate any other major religion this way, but in the case of Islam, I think it is fully deserved.)
Posted by: Wellington at July 22, 2007 3:35 PM
Wellington
Islam dictates that Muslims treat Muslims different than non Muslims. I say return the favor.
I would classify Islam as a religion. Its more of a death cult. Its possible that Mo was inspired by Satan. I posted links where it compairs the Mahdi with the anti Christ. Its eeire. I think at a minimum, Islam's god is not the God of Jews and Christians.
Posted by: Elric66 at July 22, 2007 3:43 PM
No matter what your perception is about Muhammad Ali during the Vietnam era he showed
that our Free Will has the power to choose what we will accept morally and how we apply those morals.
Ali made a choice to Box and stay a Boxer , but he refused to kill anyone for a cause he didn't agree with .
I say that because the Jihadist suicide bombers are not raised in a vacuum and must have some external input from their culture or immediate family that hand down the basic values , so in this light it appears to me that Islam and the Middle East in General can create someone who is very open to killing people if the cause is right.
Except , the endoctrine of hate for any person outside of Islam can convince Muslim youth that God gives a special dispensation to murderers if they slaughter civilians as a favour to him .
This may explain why Mothers of these useful idiots usually express a shock because they felt the killer was such a nice boy and Devout followers of Muhammed and Islam because even a room full of pedophiles from NAMBLA actually convince each other that they are correct in their twisted perception of reality for the age of their victims which these Jihad Moms seem to suffer as well from the Quran allowing for the killing of Infidels/apostates and the People Of The Book (code word for Joooooooo's and Christians).
If Al Qaeda coaches the Jihadists to allege abuse if they are caught and held in jail , then the answer is to shoot them when you have the chance or bomb them as Martyr's for Allah's cause
and let Satan greet them to hear their rants about abuse under the Geneva Convention .
I'm sure there will be plenty of Lawyers
from the ACLU and CAIR ,but the irony will be no Valid Courts to apply American Justice within a Democracy.
at July 22, 2007 4:02 PM
Marisol,
I'm going to stick by what I said. Whether Christians or Jews in pre-Muslim times referred to God as Allah is of no consequence here. When Allah is referred to in our times most people think of the Allah of the Koran, and it is to that Allah that I am referring. When I said, "In fact, if you read the Koran and substitute the word Satan for the word Allah, it will all start to make much better sense", that's precisely what I meant.
Why do we gather hear at Jihad Watch? To learn, to discuss and to teach about Islam and Jihad in order to better protect ourselves from it and to find a way to eliminate the danger of it from our lives. We come from many different belief systems and backgrounds and we offer our thoughts and solutions based on those beliefs and backgrounds. And we deduce and logically dissect the incidents of Jihad and those situations going on in the Islamic world based on reading the articles here, discussing them, sometimes arguing about them remembering history, seeing pictures, etc. Well, as a Catholic, I do the same thing, looking at precedents, remembering prophecies that have come true and accepting the word of those who made those prophecies, especially because they have come true. When the Blessed Mother appeared to Lucy, Jacinta and Francisco in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 she foretold the coming of WWII and told them that it didn't have to happen but if people didn't turn back to God and quit offending Him then a new and worse war (WWI was almost over) would come about and they could tell it was coming when they saw strange lights in the sky over western Europe at night. Well, there was an Aurora Borealis that occurred on January 25, 1938, that was seen over western Europe and in parts of Canada and in March of that year Hitler invaded Austria. The Blessed Mother also backed up her statements by promising a miracle in October of 1917, and that incident, known as the Miracle of the Sun, did occur and was recorded in the secular newspapers of that time.
The Blessed Mother also promised at Fatima, protection for those who would pray the daily Rosary. In 1945 when the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a group of eight Jesuit priest who lived eight blocks from ground zero came out of the blast virtually unschathed. The church that was attached to their little house was obliterated but the house stood and the eight priest were able to go out and minister to the dying Japanese after the attack. Not one of those priests suffered any radiation poisoning or any long term effect from the bomb blast, even though they were literally right in the middle of it. You can read one of the priests who was there, Fr. Schiffer's account of the incident, here: http://holysouls.com/sar/rosarymiracle.htm
Arguing with Muslims is a waste of time. I think it is more effective to teach alternative viewpoints and look for alternative solutions to the problem we now find ourselves in. As far as being sympathetic to the plight of the Jews and Christians who may call God Allah and who are being slaughtered as we speak by Muslims who've hijacked their countries, as well as their God's name, I'd rather find a way to help them now by revealing the similarities in all our religious teachings that talk about this evil that's come upon us and then find a solution to counteract it's determination to destroy us all. After they're saved, they can take it up with me and bash me for it all they like.
Elric 66,
Thanks for those links. They are very interesting.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 22, 2007 4:14 PM
"Where's Naseem"?
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070722/481/e337ad5f39944d33a7703fe8805d3181
at July 22, 2007 4:25 PM
Isabellathecrusader--
I am also a practicing Catholic. In fact, I view this issue as one who has been accused by non-Catholics of being a member of a religion that worships statues, saints, and/or Mary. No, we don't. (I've also seen anti-Catholic websites that contained appalling accusations that reported Marian apparitions are Satan in disguise).
Hence my contention that the "Allah is Satan" argument is not a productive line of discourse, whether in discussions with Muslim apologists, their non-Muslim sympathizers, or people who are just starting to poke holes in the walls of moral equivalence and political correctness.
Posted by: MarisolJW at July 22, 2007 4:35 PM
Elric66: We're pretty much on the same page. The way I would put it is that Muslims believe in the same deity that Christians and Jews do, except that it is a quite different (and warped) interpretaion of that deity. Now, if one is a believing Christian or Jew (I am neither), then it is logical and understandable that such a person could see the Islamic deity as perhaps a cover for Satan. But I also think that many Christians and Jews could hold to something like I mentioned above. To wit, that Muslims got it half-right or so but not completely. The Christian emphasis on compassion for all would incline one to this position arguably.
And you're right about the Golden Rule. Virtually all religions teach this except Islam, which has the golden rule only for fellow Muslims, and sometimes not even for them. After all, there is no Mother Teresa in the Islamic world. You're also correct that Islam is a death cult for at least some of its adherents whenever it doesn't get its way. Bottom line: Islam is bad news in many respects and a true threat to true liberty, something no other major religion on earth is------and I say this as an agnostic. My best to you.
at July 22, 2007 4:38 PM
Elric66: We're pretty much on the same page. The way I would put it is that Muslims believe in the same deity that Christians and Jews do, except that it is a quite different (and warped) interpretaion of that deity. Now, if one is a believing Christian or Jew (I am neither), then it is logical and understandable that such a person could see the Islamic deity as perhaps a cover for Satan. But I also think that many Christians and Jews could hold to something like I mentioned above. To wit, that Muslims got it half-right or so but not completely. The Christian emphasis on compassion for all would incline one to this position arguably.
And you're right about the Golden Rule. Virtually all religions teach this except Islam, which has the golden rule only for fellow Muslims, and sometimes not even for them. After all, there is no Mother Teresa in the Islamic world. You're also correct that Islam is a death cult for at least some of its adherents whenever it doesn't get its way. Bottom line: Islam is bad news in many respects and a true threat to true liberty, something no other major religion on earth is------and I say this as an agnostic. My best to you.
at July 22, 2007 4:43 PM
"Whether Christians or Jews in pre-Muslim times referred to God as Allah is of no consequence here." Actually, I do not believe that pre-Muslim Jews used the term "Allah." That's not a Hebraic term. AFTER Islam came into being -- then Christians and Jews living in Arab lands (obviously speakers of Arabic) used the term Allah. (Wikipedia has info on the etymology of the term.)
Posted by: J.S. at July 22, 2007 4:58 PM
Thanks Wellington. Every one not a Muslim is at risk. Whether you are a Christian, Jew, Buddist, athiest, pagan etc. Sooner everyone realizes this the better. Of course I dont know what other proof someone needs to see the light. We have the Qur'an, the hadiths, the sunnas, 1400 years of Islamic history and of course jihad around the world. I do my part by sharing the truth with co-workers. Made a few allready.
Posted by: Elric66 at July 22, 2007 4:59 PM
Marisol:
I understand your apprehensions about claiming that Allah is just another name for Satan, and how that is not a good starting place for dialogue with radical Muslims. Nothing could be clearer than that. If I really wanted to engage in dialogue w/ a radical Muslim I wouldn't start out saying inflammatory stuff against their religious beliefs.
If someone were to accuse me of worshipping three gods bc I am a Christian, I wouldn't just say "No I don't!" and then start slinging mud, either. I would understand that they say so out of ignorance, and then calmly begin to explain the Trinity and the truine nature of God as revealed throughout the Bible. If they wouldn't listen that's their problem, and reveals that they had no interest in dialogue.
But speaking the truth is not always uncontroversial and it is often unwelcome. It is important to speak the truth in wisdom and in a way that allows the other person to face the truth, rather than just be condemning and judgmental.
But, in my experience, radical Muslims only use the pretext of dialogue as vehicle to accomplish some unspoken adverse objective, and on a political level, the best results our leaders have achieved is when they FORGO dialogue altoghter and just take action and bring serious consequences, just like Blair did when Iran captured those British sailors a few months ago. He didn't enter into dialogue like Tehran wanted. He just gave them 48 hours or else, and they caved in, and the sailors were returned unscathed.
Posted by: Tookson at July 22, 2007 5:17 PM
Whats a radical Muslim?
Posted by: Elric66 at July 22, 2007 5:23 PM
IMHO A "radical Muslim" is someone seeking Sharia law world-wide and who encourages terrorism. Not all "Muslims" really follow the Koran, just like not all "Christians" really care about the Bible, etc. :)
Posted by: Tookson at July 22, 2007 5:27 PM
Marisol,
I say that Allah is Satan because that is what I firmly believe. I'm not trying to be provocative here. I'm trying to get to the bottom of who and/or what it is we are fighting against.
Here is my logic behind it: We are told by Muslims that God the Father and Allah are one. But how can this be? Jesus Christ, Who is one with His Father, teaches that we are to love God with all our heart and all our soul and to love our neighbors as ourselves. He makes no differentiation between races, sexes, nationalities, etc. as to who my neighbor is. He says just to love our neighbor as ourselves. God the Father broke it down for us with the ten commandments, telling us not to steal, or lie about, or kill our neighbor, or sleep with our neighbor's wife or husband, or covet their stuff.
Now Allah says to kill the unbelievers where you find them. He says that it's wrong to commit adultery but that it's A-Okay to have sex with any married captives that your right hand possesses. Huh? It's also okay to lie to further the spread of Islam (taqiyya) and after the jihadis go into a country and invite Christians and Jews to convert, and they decide not to, it's okay to extort the jizya tax out of them and if they won't submit then it's okay to make war against them i.e., it's okay to kill them and take their land and their stuff.
I know that the true God doesn't lie and He doesn't ever contradict Himself. Knowing this and remembering that Jesus Christ says in the Bible that you are either for Me or against Me, then when I compare and contrast what the Bible says about God and what the Koran says about Allah, I know there is no way they are one in the same. And if it is true what Jesus said, that you will know them by their fruits, then we have to seriously consider that a so called "god" that has power, that is prayed to, that demands total obedience as well as world wide worship, that has no mercy and doesn't understand the word forgiveness, (I'm thinking of all the girls who are murdered in so-called honor killings by the family members who supposedly love them,) that slaughters members of the human race that dare oppose it's will and so on may very well be the prince of darkness and the prince of lies. The tell tale sign of destructive pride is firmly in place and that is why Lucifer was thrown out of heaven by St. Michael. If we add to that the revelations in the Apocalypse regarding the reign of anti-Christ, Babylon (Iraq) and where Armageddon is supposed to start, the similarities are too close for comfort.
Having said all that, there is a prescription for what ails us. The Blessed Mother promises to protect us and that God will bless our houses and the people in them if we pray the Rosary. And who is the enemy of the Blessed Mother? The old serpent who tries to strike at her heal and whose head she shall crush. I don't think it's any coincidence that in pictures of Our Lady of Guadalupe she is standing in front of the sun, to show that she is more powerful than the Mexican sun god and that she is standing on the crescent to show that she is more powerful than Islam and that it is subjected to her, as God's messenger. How appropriate that God sent the Blessed Mother, the woman who said, "Behold the handmaiden of the Lord; be it done unto me according to thy will," and Allah as Satan sent Mohammad. The one who said to God, "I will not serve," sent his own prodigy who was more interested in getting laid, killing Jews and having stuff than he ever was about the spiritual welfare of the people who followed him.
Regarding all the lying done on websites, it seems to be by mostly fallen away Catholics who can't face whatever it is they did to make them feel so bad and instead of being sorry and seeking the forgiveness that God promises, they sink further into the soup by spreading lies that they think will prove that Catholicism is bad and they are right. The funny thing is though that the absolution and relief they seek from their guilt is always out of reach, and you can tell what I'm saying is true by the bitterness and covert hostility that boils just below the surface. People who really have the live and let live attitude never concern themselves with what Christians are doing or thinking, unless they have a guilty conscience.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 22, 2007 5:42 PM
J.S.-- I mis-spoke above; I definitely could have been clearer. (I don't know how I would get by if I had to write with a typewriter, as often as I feel the need to reword or clarify something I've written).
What I should have cited is the evidence of Aramaic origins of "Allah," which the Wikipedia entry for "Allah" also discusses a bit. Those forerunners would be fair game for use by pre-Islamic Christians and Jews.
My apologies for the confusion.
Posted by: MarisolJW at July 22, 2007 5:46 PM
duh_swami - I'm glad I passed your test! Thank You!
Of course "allah," the Hate/Murder "god" is NOT our Judeo-Christian God/Jesus Christ (One and the Same) God of Love and Peace.
Indeed, they are diametrically opposed.
It's obvious. Just compare the satanic koran with The Bible, both Old and New Testaments.
Posted by: darcy at July 22, 2007 6:03 PM
IMHO A "radical Muslim" is someone seeking Sharia law world-wide and who encourages terrorism. Not all "Muslims" really follow the Koran, just like not all "Christians" really care about the Bible, etc. :)
Posted by: Tookson [TypeKey Profile Page] at July 22, 2007 5:27 PM
Not really a Muslim or Christian if you dont follow your religious teachings.
But the difference is a Christian that is peaceful is peaceful because of the teachings of teachings of Jesus and the Bible.
A Muslim that is peaceful is peaceful because he chooses not to follow the teachings of the Qur'an and Mo.
Mo was closer to OBL than Jesus.
at July 22, 2007 6:04 PM
A muslim who does not follow the Quran is not a muslim. The Quran is the immutable word of God, according to them. To not follow it is apostacy.
Allah is not talking to muslims thru the Quran 1400 years ago. The Quran is Allahs voice forever...real time. If Allah does not talk to muslims real time, then Islam is just a chunk of dead history.
Why dialog with them at all? Has anyone ever won a debate with a muslim? Has anyone ever beaten, Sublimer, or Naseem, or watcher, or An American or Progressive, or even Morgaan Sinclair in a debate? It matters little if you know more about Islam than they. Or that you are right. You cant win. They are superior to you, they dont come here to learn, but to destroy, So why worry if an unpleasent name is attached to their god? It is a mistake, to mistake the Islamic god Allah, with your own God.
By going soft on Allah, we are leaving the idiot in full posession of his idiocy. I dont think that is overall helpful. I have explained in the past that Allah is a duality, and then cant be God , which is singular. Duality is material, this material is matter. Since all evil happens in matter, Allah then, is the Lord of Matter, and evil. Some people would call this Satan.
If the shoe fits, Allah must wear it...
at July 22, 2007 6:16 PM
MarisolJW,
I think I know what you're trying to convey, but I don't think anyone is obligated to give any semblance of credibility to the Muslim claim that Allah is the same God worshiped by Christians and Jews. To do so is to suggest a spiritual and historical linkage between the three religions that does not really exist, except in the minds of Muslims. I believe that Muslims desperately want the respectability that that kind if linkage would confer on them, and it enrages them when Christians and Jews will not give it to them.
I think it's perfectly natural for a Christian to conclude that Islam is rooted in something demonic. The very fact that Mohammad's "angel" gutted the Christian faith by denying the divinity of Jesus, his death on the cross, and resurrection, more than suggest the demonic nature of Islam. Without divinity, crucifixion and resurrection, there is no forgiveness of sin, and, therefore, no salvation. From a Christian perspective, any spirit that would teach such things, and claim to be conveying God's thoughts is demonic.
It is enough to campare the personalities of Allah and the God of the bible to conclude that the Islamic version of God is something incredibly evil. Everything the God of the bible condemns as sin is allowed, and even glorified and encouraged by the God of Mohammad.
I can't see where we would be doing Muslims any favors by leading them to believe that there is some spiritual line fron Islam to Christianity to Judaism. It would be a lie, and the lie they live will only lead to their eventual destruction.
Islam is demonic, and we have an obligation to tell them that. What they do with that truth is their business, but, at least they've been told. Jesus never pulled any punches for fear of offending anyone. He told them the truth in love, and so should we.
Posted by: rational
at July 22, 2007 6:22 PM
Elric66 said:
"Not really a Muslim or Christian if you dont follow your religious teachings."
I couldn't agree w/ you more.
However, some people identify themselves w/ a particular religion even if their faith plays a minor role in their personal lifestyle. There's no point in calling a secular peaceful Turkish or American Muslim a "radical Muslim" if they are appauled at the jihadists just like us. That's why I would distinguish bw "radical Muslims" as a clearly defined category: those who smile at terrorism and encourage jihad and sharia law.
at July 22, 2007 6:25 PM
I don't think anyone is obligated to give any semblance of credibility to the Muslim claim that Allah is the same God worshiped by Christians and Jews. To do so is to suggest a spiritual and historical linkage between the three religions that does not really exist, except in the minds of Muslims
That's not what I had in mind. I certainly don't think the deity presented by Muhammad and the Judeo-Christian God are the same entity. My point was that I find the Allah/Satan equation, as I said above, "problematically imprecise," and that in any event, I believe there are more compelling arguments to be made.
Posted by: MarisolJW at July 22, 2007 6:43 PM
Tookson, thats the ole good muslm, bad muslim game.
It does not exist in reality. There is no such thing as a secular muslim. If you know of one, study the picture untill you find out what is wrong with it.
A secular muslim is an oxymoron. A radical muslim is a peaceful muslim, who is peaceful untill he is not.
Muslims are not appauled at other muslims jihad. All muslims are obligated to support and participate in jihad. Where are the million muslim marches against jihad and terrorism? You cant find any of them, but the PEW pole found something like 100,000 American muslims who thought that bombings may be called for.
There may be some discrepencies in various muslim sects, but the constant is, they are all muslims, except Shia to a Sunni, or Sunni to a Shia. They try to negate each other...
at July 22, 2007 6:51 PM
Easy to understand how and why illiterate, ignorant third worlders are sucked in by the terrorists. Harder to explain why educated people like the doctors in the UK were. Maybe it has something to do with the the Quran and the teachings of Islam itself? Nah! Couldn't be!
Posted by: Timur at July 22, 2007 6:51 PM
My point was that I find the Allah/Satan equation, as I said above, "problematically imprecise," and that in any event, I believe there are more compelling arguments to be made.
Posted by: MarisolJW
Sometime I would like to hear what is 'problematically imprecise' about it. I have no problem merging them at all.
Is this just your opinion, and druthers, or is this going to be a JW/DW policy?
Posted by: duh_swami at July 22, 2007 7:03 PM
Are those who stay at home any less Americans than those who fight? No both are equally Americans.
So why is it that we try to separate the fighters of Islam from the rest?
Pierre Legrand,
We cannot separate the fighters of Islam from the rest for one reason: they don't do the same to us. UBL attacked the twin towers because the workers in those office buildings, most of whom had never even HELD A GUN, were seen as fighters against Islam. He viewed anyone who "supported the American system" as a valid target.
Turnabout is fair play. Muslims who don't set bombs cannot claim neutrality. The fact remains that the jihadists live among the "peaceful Muslims" and those who claim they are not interested in a fight do nothing about those who are. The disinterested remain so at their own peril. Attacks on jihadists end up killing innocent civilians who are in the area. Those attacks would not be necessary if the people who know who in the Muslim community is carrying out the violence would take it upon themselves to stop them. These non-combatants don't realize it, but our fight is their fight. If they stand to the side they could die. It can't be helped.
ALL Muslims need to choose sides. Until they do, they are at risk. If their own don't kill them, they will most likely die in the crossfire. There is no alternative. We cannot let their presence intimidate us or prevent us from doing what has to be done to save our own people.
If they are not with us then they are against us. If they are with us, they will not stay idle. They will join the fight. If they keep out of the fight then we cannot trust them. Neutrality is not an option, for them or for us.
at July 22, 2007 7:13 PM
duh_swami:
I don't make policy. Anything I cite as policy, I do my best to find something specific Robert or Hugh have written to back it up.
As such, I'm only giving my own opinion here.
Posted by: MarisolJW at July 22, 2007 7:58 PM
duh_swami,
Please heed Marisol's advice and cease this internal bickering.
I'll translate for you. Argue your point on a higher intellectual level. Comparing Allah to Satan is insulting...to Satan.
In all seriousness, criticize Islam based on the texts and the Islamists who use them to justify their actions.
You can't go wrong there, nor will you suffer a dearth of readily available validating examples.
Posted by: awake at July 22, 2007 8:41 PM
"Only 17, he was terrified. Not only because of an uncertain fate, but perhaps more so because the world was not as the Taliban had described it"....from headline.
OK. So how do we explain the thousands of terrorists who have seen the world for what it is, and yet they STILL decide to blow themselves and others up?
Answer: The Qur'an/Muhammad.
Posted by: champ at July 22, 2007 9:17 PM
I love Bob Baer! He did his duty to his country and got screwed by the CIA. After seeing Syriana, I realized he's a bit of a genius because the plot was far to deep for the average person to understand.
Anyway it's true what he says about the Taliban not seeing a Koran or maps. A Spec. Ops Colonel in Afghanistan told me when they're captured, they've never seen a Koran and are proudly given one compliments of the US government along with a bath to clean the lice out of their hair. They are totally brainwashed and living in the Middle Ages in mud huts.
Posted by: Bonniea at July 22, 2007 9:41 PM
Marisol...thats legitimate, I was just checking to make sure...
Awake...
Since Allah talks to muslims in the present tense, through the Quran, it is not sufficient to stick to the texts. To discredit the Quran, you must also discredit Allah. Other wise, you have 'strained the gnat, and swallowed the camel'. I appriciate your advice, but I dont suffer any dearths. I dont allow them around me. I discredit Allah most everytime I can, and remain dearth free. And validating examples? I had one of those once, went to the Dr and had it removed.
Seriously, I have frequently connected Allah to Satan or a demon. I dont have to do that, it's just convienient. I do know how to handle dearths.
I am getting so good at it, I am thinking of starting a school. Duh_Swami's School of Dearthmanship, the art and practice of dearth, for the discriminating infidel. So I'm going to continue disparaging Allah, whenever I can, and suffer any dearths that come my way. My degree in Dearthology will give me the edge...Thanx :)
at July 22, 2007 10:17 PM
That's why I would distinguish bw "radical Muslims" as a clearly defined category: those who smile at terrorism and encourage jihad and sharia law.
Posted by: Tookson [TypeKey Profile Page] at July 22, 2007 6:25 PM
How is that "radical" when its the core teachings of Islam?
at July 22, 2007 10:38 PM
Mormon's for decades practiced polygamy, until the US government cracked down on the immoral practice. Now, a low percentage of Mormons actually practice polygamy. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young both stated IN WRITING that anyone who does not practice polygamy will not attain to Godhood and will die in their sin.
Most Mormons don't practice polygamy, yet the core teaching of crazy Mormonism is that you must have multiple wives and become God so you can populate your own world in the hereafter. Mormon's who actually follow the teaching of polygamy are deemed as "radical Mormons". "Radical" is a term indicating extreme and counter to the majority. That's the sense I used the term, but it's really just semantics anyways.
Elric66, are you of the opinion that all Muslims are jihadists and terrorists?
Posted by: Tookson at July 22, 2007 10:58 PM
"I asked him if he'd heard of Iraq. He had, but when I asked him if he could point it out on a map, he said he couldn't. The same with Palestine. I doubt that he'd ever seen a map."
Has Baer ever seen a map?
Palestine?
Posted by: veritas-emet at July 22, 2007 11:28 PM
"Please heed Marisol's advice and cease this internal bickering."
I see no internal bickering here. We were discussing a subject, Marisol gave her opinion but it sounded more like a policy, her opinion was duly noted, Duh Swami and I disagreed with her and she admitted that it was not policy. And we continue on.
Just for the record, I look at Allah as Satan in my quest to find the source of the chaos and a solution to removing it. My audience was never Muslim apologists, their non-Muslim sympathizers, or people who are just starting to poke holes in the walls of moral equivalence and political correctness. It is the people here who I depend on to bounce ideas off of and discuss the dilemma we find ourselves in. And I find that there are quite a few people here who see the point I'm trying to make and agree with me.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 22, 2007 11:42 PM
she admitted that it was not policy
I'm not a loose cannon; I never said it was policy. I thought my opening sentence made that clear:
I've taken issue once in the past with the notion of identifying Allah with the devil; I thought I might air those concerns again.
Airing concerns. Nothing was deleted, and nothing was cited as unacceptable to appear among the comments in the sense that, for example, a slur would be.
Posted by: MarisolJW at July 23, 2007 12:10 AM
Marisol,
We don't want to overstep our boundaries. Nor do we want to be chastised for having an opinion different from our hosts. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I wish you a good evening.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 23, 2007 12:23 AM
Marisol, Isabella, Swami, Awake, et al
Lighten up. I partly agree with Marisol that starting an argument with an assertion that Allah is Satan can be problematic, but concluding an argument with that assertion isn't. One of the authors at Islam-Watch has done a complete satirical analysis of Allah, based on the Quran and Sunnah, which makes fascinating reading. Highly recommended, and the table of contents below:
Posted by: Infidel Pride
- Allah is Anthropomorphic Size, Shape and Look of Allah
- Who is Allah? The Male, Bachelor, King & Deity having Daughters and Dwellings
- Allah’s Likes and Dislikes
- Allah’s Executive Office
- Allah’s Temperament
- Allah is Amorphous
- Allah’s Countenance
- Allah is Dictatorial, Racist and Misogynistic
- Activities of Allah
- Muhammad is Allah
- The Capricious Mind of Allah
at July 23, 2007 3:24 AM
Identifying Allah as Satan, gives credibility to Islam as a "religion". It links Christianity to Islam, the same as Muhammad intended when he included Judeo/Christian prophets in his "revelations".
Islam is a cult...a fraud...a primitive, supremicist, malignant narcissism, created by rantings by a Caravan Raider/Warlord. It has many, many aspects that need to be examined, addressed and reformed, but simply calling Allah, "Satan" does not further the case against militant Islam.
(My two cents worth)
Posted by: Xero G at July 23, 2007 3:40 AM
Elric66, are you of the opinion that all Muslims are jihadists and terrorists?
Posted by: Tookson [TypeKey Profile Page] at July 22, 2007 10:58 PM
All Muslims that are faithful to the Qur'an and the teachings of Mo are terrorists.
at July 23, 2007 5:59 AM
IP -- if I could just add my 2 cents worth also...
That list of attributes -- I mean, c'mon. Virtually everyone knows (or at least, should know) that Islam does NOT believe that Allah is imminent..."transcendent", yes -- imminent? no. This means that you can't give any "personal" attributes to Allah...unlike in Christianity or Judaism, with Islam there is NO "personal" G-d. Even the term "Allah" -- this is not a "proper name." Allah is totally transcendent, above and beyond...there is no "wrestling with" this "deity." There can be zero "personal" connection. (In fact, i think there are certain elements of Islam which seem atheistic.)
Anyway, such "lists" are good for what, exactly? (it's like projection...might tell us more about the writer than about allah/islam.)
Posted by: J.S. at July 23, 2007 9:44 AM
duh_swami,
You don't like the word dearth? :)
IP,
I am lightened up. You didn't appreciate my attempt to be cheesily funny?
"Comparing Allah to Satan is insulting...to Satan."
at July 23, 2007 9:49 AM
For me, it depends on who the audience is.
If you're talking amongst like-minded co-religionists, then comparing another religion's god to your religion's devil is appropriate.
If you're trying to reason with a Muslim and get him to examine exactly what it is he follows and why, well, I guess saying he worships Satan is one approach. As Marisol pointed out: in general, a fact-based (or text-based) approach might work better.
I would add: especially since it seems that Muslims are constantly being told that the West (and Christians) are waging a war to destroy Islam.
Let's say you've got a doubting Muslim who is suspicious of you and your motives (you are, after all, a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, American Crusader). This Muslim loves his family, friends and community and loves many of the good traditions of Islam but is having serious intellectual doubts about what he reads in the Koran or what he sees in the world around him. It will take an emotional and intellectual struggle before he is strong enough in his new-found knowledge to leave Islam (which might entail being ostracized by his friends and family).
If you start out by telling him that he and his family and friends, all good people who worship (their) God, are not just mistaken but are devil-worshippers, he'll probably close his heart to you and rush back to the safety of his community, because you've proven at least one of the imam's lies.
Again, it depends on the audience: Who are you speaking to? What is the purpose of your discussion?
As I read this thread, I imagined Robert Spencer in a televised debate with a Muslim man:
Muslim Man: The Koran, blah, blah, blah
Robert Spencer: You worship the devil!
Muslim Man: How dare you! Hitler was a Christian, blah, blah, blah
Robert Spencer: You're all devil worshippers!
Muslim Man: White American Crusader! Jew! blah, blah, blah
Robert Spencer: In fact, you're the devil! Satan, Satan, Satan!
I'm a Christian. I disagree with most other religions based on what the Bible says and how my Protestant churches have interpreted it, plus what my own common sense tells me. That alone isn't a sufficient reason for someone else to abandon their religion. If they are wrong, who says I'm not wrong, too? The strength of my faith or my religious fervour isn't proof, since the person in the other religion might be more devout than me.
at July 23, 2007 1:43 PM
What see here is how Islam totally short-circuits the human mind and circumvents our capacity to reason. Islam's general contempt for who and what humanity is leaves one wondering.
In fact-- Islam and its techniques are all so utterly, chillingly inhuman that it makes me suspicious that Islam's origins in Babylon (al-lah is the same god as the Babylonians') were based on mind-control techniques(and by a species of humanoid that was NOT homo sapiens). One thing Arab-Muslims do excel at is mind-control; in fact, Muslims are much better at it than we are. And there is no evidence that these people developed this through conventional methods of trial and error-- it has been part and parcel of the Middle East for millennia and they have made ample use of it over centuries.
There are (admittedly dubious) sources that cite a reptilian-looking race of people who were Babylonian royalty but have since disappeared. I think these lovely reptilian folk are the ones who created the al-lah of the Kuran we all know and loathe. Certainly al-lah is a reptilian creature by nature...
There is an element of non-humanity to Islam that is difficult to explain (or believe). Islam's mind control coupled with its horrible cruelties (to us anyway) are distinctly ALIEN. I cannot imagine anyone else thinking or behaving this way (even among the ancients).
Humanity may have to begin working much harder at decoding the Islamic cult if it is to survive this.
Posted by: pythagoras at July 24, 2007 9:24 PM
Pythagoras,
Hmmm, reptilian you say? Any relation to the old serpent or to the blood thirsty snake god of the pre-Christian Mexicans who demanded human sacrifice and got it? Now these similarities are too close for comfort. And who was that old serpent?
Thanks, Elias, for that Sura. I'm going to check it out right now. It is very helpful when explaining to the average Joe about what is going on in Islam to be able to site the passages so they can't offhandedly dismiss what we say.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 25, 2007 1:37 AM
Elias,
Thanks for that. Look at the third set of suras below on the page. It talks about how forgiveness is not allowed, even for family members,if they are unbelievers. So much for the Dhimmicrats beloved PC tolerance and the religion of peace.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at July 26, 2007 11:18 AM
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