Clinton leapt before he knew where he was going-- and he still has not looked back. The TV showed us the poor Bosnians without any context and history and Clinton, wanting to appear presidential, reacted to the demands of an un- educated electorate (polling sample thereof anyway). Hence we are left with this disaster.

Its time we brought out the horses and rode them once again bearing swords and shields.

Posted by: lonewolf at July 29, 2007 1:52 AM

Greg

Actually, one thing - the 1914 assassination of Franz Ferdinand at Sarajevo - wasn't Muslim related; that was the doing of a Bosnian-Serb.

As for the 'indigenous Bosnian Muslims of Europe', they were Slav converts to Islam, courtesy the Ottoman policy of Jiziya/Dhimmitude. Today, they form the recruitment pool for the 'white' al-Qaeda, where al Qaeda can hire Muslims who are white, and could therefore avoid the racial profiling that Arab and Paki looking men would attract.

Given all the support they got from European countries during the Bosnia war, why can't they simply state that they are happy with Bosnia going Islamic, and leave it at that? Why talk of naturalizing Islam in the rest of Europe, which already has its problems with immigrant Arab, Paki and Turkish Muslims? And there are people like Stephen Schwartz who want to convince us that the Muslims in the Balkans are different from your 'Wahabi' thugs?

That's gratitude for ya. If the EU had half a brain, they'd start working for the secession of Srpska from Bosnia, and annexation to Serbia.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at July 29, 2007 2:07 AM

Muslims are conquering the world slowly and steadily.Their present victim is europe.The euro dhimmis and clinton bombed serbia to appease the unappeasable muslims.Serbian infidels have been betrayed by europeans and clintons of the world.Now bush al saud is doing the same thing by asking for independence of kosovo and giving muslims the launchpad where they can start their demographic jihad of europe.Serbs have suffered a lot first by nazis and then by islamonazis.muslims are always the aggressors and the dhimmis are their pawns.

Posted by: anti islamocommunist at July 29, 2007 2:17 AM

Well! Why are any of us surprised by this article? What did we expect?

All I have to ask here is simply phrased, very simply phrased, and indicates the losses that Europe is sustaining.

Simply: WHAT ABOUT KOSOVO? WHY SHOULD THE MUSLIMS GET IT WHEN IT IS THE SERBIAN CHRISTIAN HEARTLAND? WHY DO YOU, OUR WESTERN POLITICIANS, SEEMINGLY SEEK NOTHING OTHER THAN OUR DESTRUCTION?

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at July 29, 2007 2:34 AM

AND WHY SHOULD WE REJOICE WHEN THE MUSLIMS OF BOSNIA-HERZEGOVNIA CELEBRATE?

Rather, we should weep for our loss!

Posted by: Jonathan Ralbrooke at July 29, 2007 2:36 AM

I'll bet if Egyptian Coptic Christians held a celebration of the 2000 year old presence of Christians in Egypt, and as a reminder to other Egyptians that they've been in Egypt longer than Islam, Muslim mobs would butcher them.

Posted by: rational at July 29, 2007 2:40 AM

Well said, JR

Posted by: ewha1 at July 29, 2007 3:30 AM

First off, I doubt we'd ever be able to see the breakup of modern bosnia and an independent Srpska unless Kosovo would get its independence as well. The EU, NATO, and pretty much everyone else of influence in Europe will never have Kosovo staying in Serbia while Srpksa gets freedom. It will always be interpteted as an obscene double standard against muslims, neve rmind Serbia's historic claim to Kosovo, or that Bosnia was created to be an Islamic state in the first place by Izetbegobitch, against the will of all the local Serbs and even the muslims who were smart enough not to let him brainwash them, (i.e. in Bihac and Cazin).

Of course, the one good thing about the Kosovo independence issue, the silver lining in the huge, blood red storm cloud, is that if/when Kosovo gets freedom, the people of Srpska, not to mention Biafra, Southern Sudan, Darfur, Kabyle, Hindus of Bangladesh, Balochistan, Sindh, Bali, West Papua, Central Afghanisttan (Hazara), Malaka, Manado, Sabah/Sarawak, and everyone else under jihadist and Islamist subjugation is going to demand to know why they get ignored in favor of Kososvo. They're going to wonder, "What are we gonna have to do to get noticed and get our own freedom? Start dynamiting mosques and homes and schools? Start machine gunning people down in their own backyards? Get involved in more violent riots?" In due time NATO, UN, and the modern Western leadership will be exposed as sock puppets for jihadists.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at July 29, 2007 3:33 AM

Giving tax cuts for converting away from islam seems like a pretty good idea!

Posted by: Goob at July 29, 2007 4:16 AM

And NATO has been there just sitting back watching muslims 'peacefully' keep slaughtering Serbs. They do nothing while the 'peace' just keeps on happening. We do nothing while the 'peace' just keeps on happening over there also. If the Serbs try to do anything to help themselves - we make sure they stop it.

A good book that I read about it all was 'The Revenge of the Prophet'. Clinton being the worst, but Bush hasn't done anything to change anything over there. We support NATO in their watching the muslims slaughter more christians. Oh, and I have always wondered, where is the Pope in all of this? Should he be more than a little concerned? I would suspect that the muslims would target him at some point due to him being the head of the Catholic Church.

Posted by: R_not at July 29, 2007 4:25 AM

"This is an opportunity to remind that there are indigenous Muslims in Europe.''

I'd like to remind the world of the Natice Christians and Jews of the Middle East.

WHAT ABOUT ***THEM***, moofti??!!

Please do tell..

Posted by: Allahfanculo at July 29, 2007 4:26 AM

maxwell46&2

There wouldn't be a silver lining if Kosovo became independent. The whole point of Western support for the Jihad against Serbia - both in Bosnia & Kosovo - is to demonstrate to Muslims that the West can be pro-Islamic, in order to counter the perception that the West is pro-Israel (despite all the pressure on Israel to give away as much of the West Bank & Jerusalem as possible). Not that it necessarily works - Arab reaction to the war against Serbia was lukewarm at best, maybe due to historic Nasser-Tito Non-Aligned alliances, or maybe due to Arab disdain for Turks and other non-Arab Muslims.

So if Kosovo did become independent, god forbid, the people in Srpska, Baifra, Kabyle, Bali, et al could howl all they want, but since supporting them won't earn the West Muslim gratitude (actually, nothing ever will), those people aren't going to be supported. The only solution to this that I see - and it's an ugly one - is Russia doing what it can to undermine the West in the mid-east, so that it has little to no power to project in Kosovo - although being nose deep in Iraq & Afghanistan, that's probably already assured. That should be followed by say a declaration of independence by Srpska, and Russia sending its troops in: let's see NATO or US troops be put in, and where. Once that's achieved, let Srpska vote on becoming a part of Serbia, and then let it become a fait accompli.

It will be funny to see the West become the laughing stock of the world, once it can't even support a Jihad right.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at July 29, 2007 5:31 AM

I'll bet if Egyptian Coptic Christians held a celebration of the 2000 year old presence of Christians in Egypt, and as a reminder to other Egyptians that they've been in Egypt longer than Islam, Muslim mobs would butcher them.

... that is, if there are any Christians left in Egypt to celebrate that milestone sometime around the middle of this century.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at July 29, 2007 5:48 AM

"Bosnian Muslims celebrate 600 years of Islam in their nation"

'"This is an opportunity to remind that there are indigenous Muslims in Europe.'''

"Islam arrived in Bosnia with the Ottoman occupation in 1463".

If Muslims "arrived" in Europe 600 years ago, they can hardly be described as "indigenous", surely? If they are, then how does one class the Jewish inhabitants of 'Palestine', who have been there for 3,000 years or more?

Incidentally, let us not forget that Muslims did not "arrive" in Europe. They conquered it; they colonised it.

Posted by: A Nonny Nonny at July 29, 2007 6:04 AM

Bosnian muslims are actually christian Serb families converted to Islam by force (directly or indirectly) during five centuries of Ottoman rule. You will notice their Slavic appearance and serbian last names they keep to this day - for example in this report "Mustafa CerIC", or Salt Lake jihadi killer Sulejman TaloVIC. And where their leader Alija IzetbegoVIC took them, can bee seen here:

http://skynews-clips.videoloungetv.com/public/skynews/latest/bosnia_p3705.wmv

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 29, 2007 6:49 AM

And this is interesting: Subject:
"Bosnia: High Representative demands expulsion of Islamic radicals"

http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Security/?id=1.0.1150259371

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 29, 2007 6:53 AM

"Bosnian Muslims celebrate 600 years of Islam in their nation Saturday with a concert of spiritual music, a prayer for peace, and a gentle reminder to Europe: not all of the continent's Muslims are of immigrant origin."
--- from the article above

The statement is wildly misleading. It may not necessarily be part of a studied campaign, but prompted by ignorance and innocence on the part of the locals, now defensive about Islam. That is, local Bosnian Muslims may not realize what Islam, in its essence, is like, may not realize how it was that their ancestors, mostly Serbians, succumbed, some at once, some slowly over time, as so many non-Muslim populations subjected to rule by Muslims did, to a mix of torment and blandishments (those "tax cuts" -- i.e., as Muslims exempt from the Jizyah, just as they were also free from having their young sons snatched from them, as non-Muslims in the Balkans had to endure the Ottoman devshirme). They may, these local Bosnians, have allowed themselves to believe that their version of Islam -- which is essentially the result not only of living among non-Muslims, but of having lived among non-Muslims for a century without the Ottoman Turks to back them up, that is without being able any longer to be part of a system in which Muslims could, and did, dominate and rule, and this has modified their behavior -- the same thing can be observed among some Muslims in Lebanon and in India -- so that they are not quite as militant in esse (though that is changing with the effect of the Muslim Arabs who have come to Bosnia over the past decade -- not all have been identified and removed -- and because, in posse if not always in esse, it is Islam, its message semaphored and magnified by all the Western technology that Muslim propagandists engaged in their own war have appropriated, and exploited, to carry the message of Islam to three distinct groups: fervent Muslims who need to be persuaded to enroll in violent Jihad themselves; Muslims who are deemed insufficiently Muslim becuase of local conditions and histories (such as those in the Balkans) who need to become full-fledged Muslims in their observances and attitudes; Infidels, who need to hear the Call to Islam, that is be subject to Da'wa over the airwaves.

Many Bosnian Muslims choose not to recognize their own history, the disturbing facts, the steady pressure, that caused their own ancestors to become Muslims. Similarly, few Pakistanis or Indian Muslims dare to investigate at all the treatment of Hindus under Islam, a treatment that included the mass-murder of 60 to 70 million Hindus under Muslim rule, and the destruction of tens of thousands of Hindu temples and temple-complexes, and of Indian ways that left it, in Naipaul's phrase, a "wounded civilization" (with the Hindus helped to rediscover their own history by the supposedly imperialistic British -- see the forthcoming "The Defense of the West" by Ibn Warraq). They have, some of them, constructed a dream-world.

But they, and their intended audience, should know that the only reason there are Muslims in the Balkans is not because the message of Islam is just so...so convincing, so right, but because the Ottomans conquered the Balkans, and remained there, and inflicted on the Christian (and other non-Muslim) population the series of economic, political, and social disabilities, including the Jizyah (that "tax cut"), and the devshirme, that caused, over time, many to become Muslims.

Some Bosnian Muslims, the kind we like to call "moderate," would like to think that their practice, or rather, to a certain extent non-practice, of Islam is "the real thing." It isn't. The "real Islam," the Islam that explains the Bosnian S. S. Battalion (that was enthusiastically raised for Hitler by the Mufi of Jerusalem, Amin el Husseini), the recent destruction by local Muslims, in Bosnia and even more in Kosovo, of ancient Orthodox monasteries and churches, and the under-reported, steady stream of violence and murder directed at Serbian villagers (for every thousand articles on the atrocities of Serbians in the time of Milosevich, there is one about the atrocities not committed but rather suffered by, Serbian civilians subject to ways and means of killing that need not be dwelt on here.

The intent of the Muslims taking part in the farce above is to show something that is untrue. It is an attempt, that is, to pretend that Islam came, somehow, perhaps spontaneously, to the Balkans, when in fact it was brought by Turkish warriors, engaged in the mass killing of all who resisted them and, once the Jihad-conquest of Christian lands and peoples was accomplished, in the subjugation of such peoples to the rules of the game -- that is, to the Shari'a-rules that mandated a permanent state of humiliation, degradation, and physical insecurity. Do these Muslims behind this celebration think that they can keep their own history, and the history of Islam, away from the prying eyes, the hearts and minds, of Infidels indefinitely? They can't. And the more some of them attempt to ignore the texts and tenets of Islam, and to suggest that their unobservant brand of Islam (itself becoming, under Arab influence, less common in the Balkans every day) represents some kind of "Islam" that unwary Infidels should put their faith and hope for the future in (think back, to what the Balkans were like for Christians in 1700, or 1800, or 1850). Perhaps now is the time to go back to the history books, to read about southern and central Europe (and the eastern Mediterranean), as it was being conquered by the Muslims. Think, for example, of what happened at Famagusta, when the Ottomans conquered it during the Cyprus War, in 1573. Or what happened, after all, in Greece. Think of the Bulgarian Wars, and what Gladstone wrote about the massacres of the innocent by "the Turk" in the 1870s, that so aroused European public opinion - not then captured by agents or collaborators of Islam, as is the case in too many newspapers, radio and television stations, today, so hellbent on miscomprehending and apologizing for the forces of Jihad, and incapable of even recognizing Jihad when it stands in front of them (think of Israel and the Lesser Jihad which is and always will be waged against it).

Islam, the texts of Islam, and the tenets of Islam, remain the bedrock reality with which non-Muslims must contend. They cannot allow themselves to forget either those texts and tenets, or the long history of Jihad-conquest and subjugation of every kind of non-Muslim, that means far more than this or that tiny group of most unrepresentative Muslims -- unrepresentaive in time (for Muslims in the Balkans have had a century without Turkish enforces, and have had to accommmodate themselves to their more powerful non-Muslim neighborhood)--who, however, can at any point, if given the chance (and that is already being seen) change into more orhodox and observant Muslims -- that is to say, change fro being "bad" to "good" Muslims which, for Infidels, is a change that is always dangerous, always "bad" rather than "good."

No, not all of Europe's Muslims are recent immigrants, because unlike the conquest of the Iberian Peninsula to the west, pushed back duringb the 500 years of the Reconquista, Islam in the eastern and southern part of Europe cam e later, thanks to the Osmanlis -- who were in Europe even before the final fall of Constaninople, for nearly a thousand years the first city of Christendoom -- came later and lasted longer, and it was only in the 19th century that the Greeks, and then the Bulgarians, achieved their independence from Ottoman Muslim rule, and the Balkans as well.

What the history of the Balkans shows is what the history of Islam shows: under the pressure of enduring the status of dhimmis, non-Muslims over time will convert to Islam. And that is how islamization of local Serbs (and Croats) took place. Some succumbed, others didn't. The descendants of those who succumbed are what we call those Bosnian Muslims today who, oblivious of their own history, including the history of their own families and the conditions under which they must have converted to the conqueror's faith, and yet embarrassed by the image of Islam -- as well they might be -- are choosing to engage in an ahistorical celebration of something that we might all better deplore.

And the real model for the Bosnian Muslims is not the propagandist above, with the soothing Sufi music, and the scanting of just how those Muslims came to be.

No, the real model is the great movie director, the thoroughly intelligent and winning Emir Kusturica, who was born into Islam and who recently, in a public ceremony, was baptized in the Serbian Church. It was not so much a religious as a politico-cultural gesture, for as he said at the time, why should he, Emir Kusturica, pretend to be a Muslim when it was something forced by conditions on his ancestors 250 years ago? Why indeed?

Why should not Bosnian Muslims, now made aware of what Islam is all about, and not wishing to go down with the sinking ship of Arabs and Iranians, do a little "return to their roots" and throw off the lendings of the Turks? They could start, if they wished, by reading around in the literature of Jihad as it applied to the Balkans, and also to read Ivo Andric on the effect of Turkish rule on the culture of the Balkans, and especially on the Serbs.

One is not obligated, to forever stick with an Islam forced on one's ancestors -- not in the Balkans, and for that matter not in Pakistan.

The campaign above is possibly prompted by local Muslims embarrassed about the "Islam" of the immigrants, and who hope to promote this transparent "Islam-has-always-been-here, Islam-is-part-of-Europe" campaign that is being conducted, by others more sinister and powerful (e.g. Tariq Ramadan) in Europe to help persuade uncomfortable Infidels that their unsettling and disturbing experience with local Muslims, in France, in England, in Spain, in Italy, in Germany, is not the main story. No, the main story is that Muslims have always "been part of Europe" (a foreign part, a part due only to conquest and the effects of conquest), and that soft Sufi mystical chants will folkloristically, summer-of-love-woodstockistically, drown out the chants, and calls to war against the permanent enemy of Islam, the Infidels, chants that come from minarets, and in mosques, and in madrasas, all over not only Dar al-Islam, but now from deep within Dar al-Harb as well.

Posted by: Hugh at July 29, 2007 7:01 AM

That's excellent Hugh!
As usual from you.

It is also important for westerner to know there is also "linguistic warfare". Bosnian Muslims are not "Bosniaks", there was never a "Bosniak nation" in Balkans. Before the war, we used to call *everyone* from Bosnia "Bosanac" (Bosnian) - regardless of whether he is a Serb, Muslim or Croat. This was related to geography, not nation. When war started, suddenly in the media we found that Bosnia is "country of Bosniaks" and "Bosniaks" are, of course, only Bosnian Muslims...

The same with "Kosovans". I think it would be great if you write something about this aspect of Jihad.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 29, 2007 7:42 AM

indigenous
One entry found for indigenous.

Main Entry: in·dig·e·nous
Pronunciation: in-'di-j&-n&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin indigenus, from Latin indigena, noun, native, from Old Latin indu, endo in, within + Latin gignere to beget -- more at END-, KIN
1 : having originated in and being produced, growing, living, or occurring naturally in a particular region or environment

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at July 29, 2007 8:53 AM

Lazar,

We can add Kashmiris and Palestinians to this list. These are fictitious peoples who happen to be muslim. The precedent being set for the rest of Europe by the creation of Kosovo (for the Kosovars) is not good.

Near Paris, the town of St.Denis, where French kings have been buried for centuries, and is the birthplace of Gothic Architecture is pretty much majority muslim. The whole region (93) of Seine St Denis, known as the neuf trois by those the current inhabitants who cannot pronounce quatre-vingt-treize will turn muslim majority within a generation.

If Kosovo can claim independence from Serbia today, there is on reason why Seine St Denis cannot claim the same thing tomorrow.

Wherever you happen to live there are no doubt regions where you can observe a flight of infidels and a migration of muslims. That will be your Kosovo.

Posted by: Sebastien at July 29, 2007 9:12 AM

So we have to honor a six hundred year occupation of Europe by Muslims, but Israelis can't reclaim the land from which they were driven and which they occupied longer than Islam has existed as a religion?

Posted by: PMK at July 29, 2007 10:41 AM

the serbs have only themselves to blame. you start genocide agaisnt your population you deserve a damn good beating. those bloody communists deserved all they got. shame innocent serbs were caught up in the bloodshed but god they deserved a good beating for their genocide.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 10:50 AM

please remember people that the serbian gvt at that time of milosovic was a communist regime and took part in genocide. this was no democratic european political party like the british conservatives or bnp

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 10:53 AM

Robert, if possible, please make Hugh's above comments a separate post so they end up in the "By Hugh Fitgerald" archive.

Valuable stuff, requiring further exploration, and it's too hard to go back & search for these gems.

(I think of you as a National Treasure, Hugh.)

Posted by: Vee at July 29, 2007 10:58 AM

Leonthepigfarmer

There is no evidence of a Serbia genocide against the Muslims of Kosovo. Serbia was initially waging a war against Albanian and Kosovar Muslim bandits and mafioso who were trying to take over the province.

What Herr Clinton did was that gurellia war as a pretext to destroy Serbia and kiss the asses of the Muslims and to build one of the biggest military bases ever(camp bondsteel).

In terms of damage it was the U.S. Airwar the caused most of the deaths and mass devastation of the region not the Serbs.

In the end all that CLinton and NATO accomplished was to turn Kosovo into a Albanian run drug, counterfitting and smuggling conduit for Europe. Not mention turning it into a breeding ground for jihadis and ethnic cleansers.

Posted by: waltc at July 29, 2007 11:09 AM

Stephen Schwartz is full of crap, he sounds like another American Bektashi convert by the name of Richard Dobson(aka:Mushtaq Ali) The only difference between his Bektashis Dervishes and the Salafists is that the Bektashis prefer to use the assimilation and lying strategies over violence.

Here's the thing here in the U.S. there are several Bektashi orders and even though they are supposed to be moderate Muslims you won't find them condemning the Saudi funded Salafist inmans or even passages in the Koran that promote Jihad.

Sufi Orders are no friends of the west,they want the same thing as any true believer - the subjugation of the west but by more peaceful means.

Personally I'd love to see Spencer debate Schwartz or Mushtaq Ali. It would hillarious to watch either squirm.

Posted by: waltc at July 29, 2007 11:30 AM

There was a genocide in Kosovo - against Serbs and other non-albanians for decades and centuries. Read this Leon:

http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2007/07/beloff-on-kosovo.html
http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2007/07/savich-on-kosovo.html

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 29, 2007 1:53 PM

i just don't think we should be supporting a communist regime thats all. considering i was told to shut up about a democratic non violent british political party.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 2:10 PM

remember, we are talking about bosnia a country ravaged by serb aggression not kosovo, which is a different fish. i could not care less about kosovo, but then again i wish every country a good beating, including said population, when their military carries out genocide.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 2:15 PM

Yes leonthepigfarmer, we know you belong to the BNP which is an aryan supremacist organization, so naturally it hates all "die untermenschen" Slavs and thereby also Serbs.

Posted by: European Crusader at July 29, 2007 2:21 PM

European Crusader

you are joking? lets not go "off topic" please.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 2:25 PM

for your information i was totally against the NATO invasion of serbia and the senseless slaughter of fellow european serbs when the serbs fought back against the albanian invasion. i just find it a bit unpleasent to support a nasty little man called milosovic and his generals who murdered unarmed men and women and little kids who happened to be bosnians.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 2:29 PM

for your information i am now english national party, which allows in anyone. happy?

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 2:34 PM

Hopefully, by the 650th anniversary, it will be a CELEBRATION of their abandonment of the dogmas of a pedophile warlord.

600 years of darkness is too cruel.

Posted by: profitsbeard at July 29, 2007 2:42 PM

'Serbs have suffered a lot first by nazis and then by islamonazis.muslims are always the aggressors and the dhimmis are their pawns."

EXACTLY!

There is a lot of ignorance in the west in regards to the history of Serbia, and I didn't support the rape camps and ethnic cleansing,

but the more I read on the history, the 'propaganda' that is was simply Milisovic and the stirring of old racist hatreds based solely on Serbian nationalism is not the whole truth,

fact is, the Muslims were HORRIBLE to the Serbs during both wars and during the Ottoman Empire and beyond--

Serbians and non-Muslims, including masses of children, impaled on poles to slowly die--

Many of the books on the history of Yugoslavia are biased and slanted--[recent books that is] and unless one does a thorough research on the history of that region then its easy to see how Serbia has been demonized. In fact, the Slavs were demonized by the west during WWI as well--something I'm just now learning about because its what I've been reading lately--but the assassination wasn't just some crazed individual, the persecution and demonization of the Slavs [similar to the demonization of the Roma gypsies] was going on with impunity then,

but interesting too--in regards to communism--we don't hear much about how Stalin's troops were also raping Serbian women, and when the Serbs complained Stalin shrugged it off. The Serbians have not been the power upsurper as portrayed, more like the underdog fighting continually to breathe--

now I don't concur whatsoever in any shape of form with the methods they used--but there should be the revealing of the history of Serbia and not just the demonization of Serbia that was done in the west that YES NATO and the WTO played a big role in--

and for development and that was the bottom line--still is. The Balkans region is strategic, I read it was minerals but don't quote me on that.

WHat is the outrage is the total silence of our media in regards to what is going on today in Albania and Kosovo, Muslims burning down churches and attacking villages and killing and raping women in their homes and trafficking girls [with the help of miss sheet wearing purity dress who stands guard like the usual patriarchial painted bird ss women]

and we aren't hearing about it. Where is the outrage--over human right violations? There is none,

so the whole 'bombing of Kosovo for human rights' is KaKa--it had nothing to do with protecting human rights, maybe in the publics mind but not the goal of government-

if it was--they'd be over there doing something about the Muslim ethnic cleansing of non-Muslims in that region--instead they are assisting them,

and then we wonder why nationalists rise up and over generations become livid with desire for revenge.

go figure--

the West owes Serbia an apology--for biased and unfair analysis, not in reporting on the camps and rape camps--granted that WAS BULLSHIT,

but on the history and not reporting on the evils committed by the Bosnians and Croats because they did happen--still are,

question is, will there be international tribunals to hold these Muslims accountable for war crimes?

doubt it, doubt it very much.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 29, 2007 2:48 PM

bosnia is not kosovo, please try and remember this.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 2:57 PM

Well Leon, you see the contradiction of what you say - western powers DID support Milosevic and his rise to power in late 80's when he was praised by all westerners as "great leader" (while we in Serbia were desperately trying to overthrow his communists). He became "the butcher of the Balkans" many years later. They did support neo-nazi Tudjman in Croatia, muslim fundamentalist Izetbegovic in Bosnia and other morons, instead of supporting (for example) moderate Ivica Racan in Croatia, moderate businessman Fikret Abdic in Bosnia and pro-western Zoran Djindjic in Serbia. We in Serbia watched with disbelief democratic options in all federal republics being betrayed by the west. With a little help from her "friends", fourth European military force that time went to civil war instead of transforming into even stronger confederation. One can almost get to stupid idea that was someone's interest...

You see, my dear Leon "there is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." Don't ever support communists. Unless you need them for whatever reasons.

And speaking of Bosnian war, this is much more complicated than "little nasty Milosevic killing innocent muslim unarmed men, women and children"... Here they are, and not from Serbian source, but British SkyNews - watch carefully:

http://skynews-clips.videoloungetv.com/public/skynews/latest/bosnia_p3705.wmv

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 29, 2007 3:01 PM

"But they, and their intended audience, should know that the only reason there are Muslims in the Balkans is not because the message of Islam is just so...so convincing, so right, but because the Ottomans conquered the Balkans, and remained there, and inflicted on the Christian (and other non-Muslim) population the series of economic, political, and social disabilities, including the Jizyah (that "tax cut"), and the devshirme, that caused, over time, many to become Muslims"

there was a documentary on the history channel about just this,

not only did the Ottomans tax,

when they conquered, they took the girls by force and sent them to live in Turkey in the concubinage to bear children,

but they also forced, violent force, all boys of the Christians to serve in the army of Islam,

if they converted, which many of them did, they were given perks--over generations they grew--thats EXACTLY how Islam spread,

it wasn't 'oh this is a nice religion think we'll convert' it was,

you converted or suffered horribly and the tax--they taxed the people to impoverishment. I don't remember the name of the documentary, it wasn't a show to bash Islam or vice versa, just historical fact and once you read or see this history it becomes more clear,

that its not Bosnian Muslims but descendants of Muslim aggression and forced conversions, rape, enslavement and forcing boy children to serve in the armies of Islam as second class fodder because it was the forced boy warriors who were sent on the front lines of each Muslim conquest--that I do remember,

so in fact you have people in that region fighting each other which-it Islam had never stepped onto that soil,

would they be at each other's throats?

NO--because before Islam, they were majority Christians...

thats the ugly truth that they [Islamists] like to keep in the dark.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 29, 2007 3:01 PM

whoever dealt with this piece of trash milosovic deserves being thrown in jail as well. yes we obviously supported serbs abainst communism, america also supported hitler in the 1930's. saddam was also supported by america and the west.
the serbs got a good beating by the west for that nasty piece of genocide which quite frankly im shocked that people on here are supporting.
(yeah i know muslims committed genocide as well but 2 wrongs dont make a right)

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 3:15 PM

http://rationalrevolution.net/war/american_supporters_of_the_europ.htm

american support of european fascism is well documented. they obviously didnt realise that like hitler, milosovic would turn out to be a power hungry genocidal maniac.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 29, 2007 3:26 PM

I don't think anyone here is supporting the genocide committed by the Serbs--in fact I worked in advocacy with the Biser Project to bring about suits against those who formed the rape camps and who committed the war crimes--

it is possible to look at the entire development and get all the contributors to a regions problems without being an accomplice or supporter of genocide--

but anyway, I remembered I wrote some terms down because I wanted to do more studies on the Ottoman Empire and the

armies of the boys forcefully recruited were called the janissaries. Now its interesting to see that if you do a google search on the Ottoman Empire when the Bosnian sites come up, its the 'Islamics were more progressive in that epoch and etc etc etc and the Muslim preachers influenced Bosnians and people in the Balkans to convert over--which I find a tad hilarious because in every case of history that I have read--its not been this peaceful conversion process,

but when reading on secular history, then the documentation of the forced concubinages [which the whole thing with fraternicide and Turkish monarchy is noted there] and janissaries comes up, and it doesn't say they were peaceful conversions--it does say however that they were given incentives so to speak, the more they conquered for Islam the more war booty they were allowed, etc--

but this is a history that is somewhat unknown in the west, the similarities of the Muslim empires then compared to today, well, they just can't be dismissed as just rumour or phobia tactics.

The books I have read on the former Yugoslavia war, with Bosnia, etc., they have a similar thread that states that the fear or accusations towards the Bosnian Muslims were unfounded but they leave out the history of how the Ottoman Turks took power in that region.

In light of what is going on in Kashmir and Darfur today, and in Nigeria, Somalia,

can we really afford to simply dismiss the conquests as irrational fear?

I don't think we can--and I have to wonder, if there is more to the involvement of the west in the Balkan region and the outcomes and especially in Europe today that we need to seriously start looking into and paying attention to.

It is like the Balkans region is that divider line, between the east and west--

and why Does the west support the very ones that prop up fanatical Islam? It isn't just Serbia--

look at Indonesia--or has East Timor--the mass genocide against the Catholic East Timorese committed by the Indonesian Muslims-under Suharto with the blessing of none other than President Ford,

escape us?

Amnesty International did a documentary on the invasion of East Timor--those bastards bombed families in their sleep--in tents, these weren't aggressive people

they were simply Catholics, non-Muslims--

and I've yet to see any of them tried for war crimes.

NO--instead our government laid in bed with that sob and did nothing as thousands of innocent East Timorese were slaughtered for none other than Islamic expansionism.

So to assert that looking into the entire development of the Balkan region as support of genocide--NO--as a woman's rights advocate I find that offensive,

the fact remains--the world holds Muslims to a different scale of justice than they do the rest of the world, ESPECIALLY COMMUNISTS,

and its time that we hold Muslims just as accountable--because bottom line,

THE ONLY TIME THE USA GETS INVOLVED WITH ENDING GENOCIDE [RWANDA RING A BELL] IS WHEN ITS AN OIL INTEREST--OTHER WISE--

THE SLAUGHTER CONTINUES...

AND TODAY--

WE HAVE MUSLIMS IN UK IN MOSQUES BOLDLY DECLARING HOW ONE DAY THEY ARE GOING TO TAKE OVER--

and MUSLIMS BOLDLY DANCING IN THE STREET AFTER 9-11

and I think we DO NEED to hold the government accountable for PROPPING UP

THE TALIBAN IN THE FIRST DAMN PLACE TO FIGHT THE RUSSIANS--

OR SEND THOSE MEN--THOSE GOV OFFICIALS TO FIGHT THE WAR--RATHER THAN OUR CHILDREN

why the hell do we continue to allow our governments to prop these thugs into power and keep them there and then we are the ones, our children, the ones dying when they get too out of hand and our gov can no longer 'keep them under wraps' like ole boy Saddam?

and its not just left--ole right wing boyclub of free trade ya ya cheerleading bunch--had no problem with these despotic assholes killing and expanding Islam if there was money to be made--

and we are left with the mess and the threat of Islam here-maybe WE should have a tribunal--hold these officials accountable for assisting Islam--

how much power now does the Islamic regime have in arms and WMD now because of the Iran-Contra affair?

how soon we forget

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 29, 2007 3:36 PM

Yes Leon, there was a genocide in Srebrenica, here it is (WARNING!!! VERY GRAPHIC IMAGES):

http://real-srebrenica-genocide.blogspot.com

This is what Bosnian Muslim troops (under command of Naser Oric, set free by the ICTY) from "safe demilitarized area" Srebrenica did to Serbs in surrounding villages. When Serbian soldiers captured some perpetrators of these insane crimes they were executed on the place. Yes, this is a war crime under international law, but there is no doubt most of us would do the same. Muslim women and children were provided safe transport from the area by the Serbian Army - by soldiers whose old parents, sisters and children were burned, beheaded, raped and tortured... This is not what most of other soldiers would do. And this is not a genocide. You saw above what is genocide.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 29, 2007 3:38 PM

Thanks for that link LazarOfSerbia.

Wonder if these "celebrations" will give cudos to Clinton,Albright,NATO for their role. Pathetic,and the symptoms are all around us in daily stories. People used to put down rabid,forming at the mouth dogs. In the last few decades,however,it seems as if many want to invite them into their own beds.

Four pillars of islam:
Projection,Deception,Victimization,Infiltration

Posted by: We need G.C. Scott at July 29, 2007 3:55 PM

Watch carefully also this American documentary - "Yugoslavia: The Avoidable War"

Part I:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5860186121153047571

Part II:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6371060303901674397

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 29, 2007 3:57 PM

Pictures don't lie and

these pictures are so similar to the types of butchering going on in Kashmir--

they have a lot of similarities in the gashings and cuttings and the depth of violence, and the burning of bodies.

even if just from a forensics perspective, if these were simply taken as evidence of crimes--the similarities are so close that one investigating could tell these crimes are perpetuated by one of the same [meaning the means are similar--and of course if military the training techniques of murders and tortures are the same],

I'll look for the website later today on the photos of women in Kashmir, its majority of women and girls and you can see if you find similarities as well--both of course committed by Muslims. I only recall because months ago I was reading some things about the increase in attacks on women and so when I did some further research this blog came up with photos--

why I thought of it. The brutality to children is almost identical--no doubt the work of Al Queda and Hezbollah or one or the other.

I do however, well I have seen those same pics of the Nazi's and Bosnian troops and I'm glad you posted them on the blog because I can't recall where I saw those photos before--

I've read alot on the camps and rape camps but I will definately be reading a lot more about these cases. The world NEEDS TO SEE THESE.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 29, 2007 5:17 PM

Thank you Hugh for this gem:

"No, the real model is the great movie director, the thoroughly intelligent and winning Emir Kusturica, who was born into Islam and who recently, in a public ceremony, was baptized in the Serbian Church. It was not so much a religious as a politico-cultural gesture, for as he said at the time, why should he, Emir Kusturica, pretend to be a Muslim when it was something forced by conditions on his ancestors 250 years ago? Why indeed?"

How widely was this publicised? Whether it was a quiet event, a few people gathered around a font, or a typical all-stops-out Orthodox ceremony, visually and aurally gorgeous, it should have been all over Western Europe - and Central, and Eastern Europe - and everywhere else.

God bless Emir Kusturica and give him joy. Even if his choice was purely ethno-political...I hope and pray that Mr Kusturica will start exploring his new religious identity, especially through its traditional arts, the icons, and the glory of the liturgical music, and the rich and complex and humane theology that underpins them, for there he will find an ever-flowing spring of artistic and dramatic inspiration, such as Islam simply does not contain. I hope his priest will encourage him to read the Gospels and discover a God who loves and partners humanity - a God utterly different from Islam's cruel, distant and arbitrary divine tyrant.

May many, many thousands follow Mr Kusturica's example.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at July 29, 2007 6:33 PM

leonthepigfarmer"i just find it a bit unpleasent to support a nasty little man called milosovic and his generals who murdered unarmed men and women and little kids who happened to be bosnians."

Okay then genius, name a single Yugoslav/Serbian unit that went into Bosnia after it became independent.

Apart from a police detachment that protected a small portion of a Serb railway line that crossed over into Bosnia.

So name any. The ICTY prosecution witnesses at the Hague couldn't.

Natasha"I don't think anyone here is supporting the genocide committed by the Serbs"

There wasn't any GENOCIDE the total deaths from all sides - all four sides- totalled less than 100,000.

Now the Muslims' population in Bosnia is even greater than prewar. How is this possible if "genocide" had been commited against them?

The rewriting of the definition of "genocide" continues and at this rate it'll mean that someone hurt their finger peeling the potatoes.

Moral equivalency run riot.

leonthepigfarmer"american support of european fascism is well documented. they obviously didnt realise that like hitler, milosovic would turn out to be a power hungry genocidal maniac.

Ahh, ltpf is a Holocaust revisionist. You can see this by the immature and nonsensical comparisons which belittle the crimes of the NAZIs and Hitler.

By comparing the Bosnian civil war - total deaths 100,000- with the crimes of Hitler he is suggesting that Hitler was only responsible for , at most , 100,000.

In addition, a lot of the "Bosnian Serbs are guilty of genocide" evidence was forged or so pitifully weak - for example the ICTY Srebrenica main witnesses were insane and perjured themselves repeatedly - so the silly and absurd SREBRENICA = HOLOCAUST equation is a way of claiming that the evidence for the Holocaust is weak, biased and made up nonsense too.

And you've gotta laugh when it's ltpf's hero in the Balkans - a monsieur Izetbegovic- who recruited for the SS and based his philosophy on those Arab NAZIs the Muslim Brotherhood.

snigger

Posted by: ewha1 at July 29, 2007 10:42 PM

ltpf"american support of european fascism is well documented. they obviously didnt realise that like hitler, milosovic would turn out to be a power hungry genocidal maniac.

Okay Einstein, explain why not a single "Bosniak" was ever burned out of their home in Serbia? Not one. In fact , when Srebrenica was liberated in 95 an entire ABIH Brigade swam across the Drina to safety in Serbia. There, they were clothed fed and then allowed to go whereever they saw fit.

Also explain why the "Bosniaks" in Kosovo supported the Serbs , in fact at Rambouillet, one of the members of the Serb delegation was a "Bosniak".

And why did the secular and most popular "Bosniak" politican - Abdic- align himself with Slobo. Slobo and Abdic got on really well and even a Croat diplomat witness at the Hague noted how Slobo always tried to help out the Secular muslims of Bihac

Posted by: ewha1 at July 29, 2007 10:56 PM

ewha1:

Do you have to be so rude?

Posted by: atheling at July 29, 2007 11:13 PM

Just to add,

there is genocide in part as well as genocide in whole,

in part--meaning ethnic cleansing or genocide 'within borders' where as genocide in whole meaning genocide of a people within and outside of borders,

and I do believe you are correct, the usual terminology used is ethnic cleansing but there is debate as to whether ethnic cleansing is the same as genocide [such as what was done via the Holocaust] but then--I think then you get into all the arguments over semantics and can be a means of cleverly lessoning the truth or washing the truth.

As a feminist, I have to add that from feminist point of view, using 'rape' as a means or tool of war is in my opinion [and thousands of other women] a form of genocide,

and there is absolutely no denying the rape camps.

But like anywhere in the world, women are not believed or taken seriously when charges of rape come forward, or if they are, its to fit an agenda. But the fact remains, women and young girls were taken, and held in camps, hotels, and raped,

and IT IS WRONG.

It is also reflective of more than just war but I won't go into that here...but we know rape and rape culture goes on just as much in peace time as in war, war however gives the perfect 'excuse' for men to do what they do anyway, just in higher numbers because there is no laws to prevent,

same can be said with killing children and torture, etc.

I've said this here before and I'll say it again, when men take on the nature of the beast, they do NOTHING TO COMBAT ISLAM,

IN FACT--THEY DO MORE, TO FUEL THE JUSTIFICATIONS IN ISLAM AND TO FEED THE SYMPATHIES OF ISLAMIST SUPPORTERS.

take the case of the rape of the Hadji girl in Iraq--that rape did more to recruit men into the Al Queda then it did to hurt the family of the young woman--it also did more to pave the way for sympathizers in the west, ESPECIALLY WOMEN.

No body likes to bring it up because its not popular and I am very well aware of the risk of anger and violence just because I am a woman and do bring it up--

but it needs to be said. And the reason for that is the FACT that while YES there are women who are complicit and do support brutal regimes and horrible human right crimes, the majority of women, Especially in Islam, do not have the means or legal rights or resources to oppose or stand against their governments policies--

women by far do NOT MAKE THE POLICY DECISIONS, OR THE DECISIONS FOR WAR--THEY BY FAR DON'T EVEN HOLD THE PERCENTAGE IN POLITICAL OFFICE AND IN SOME REGIONS THEY AREN'T EVEN ALLOWED TO VOTE--

YET TIME AND TIME AGAIN THEY ARE THE ONES SINGLED OUT AND VIOLENTLY ATTACKED BECAUSE THEIR BODIES ARE THE BATTLEGROUNDS,

they are terrorized, held hostage by BOTH THE ENEMY AND THEIR OWN MEN/STATE/RELIGION, ETC...

so to use 'rape' as a means of terror, of striking out against the enemy--or to use 'gendercide' or 'killing children'

is in my opinion YES--A FORM OF GENOCIDE because even after the war is over--those women are scarred for life--women who for the most part--had nothing to do with the decision to war or had power to do anything to stop the men from the butchering, etc...yet THEY ARE THE ONES WHO PAY THE PRICE,

and they and their children are the ones who carry the baggage in ALL WARS, but especially when they are singled out as the 'battlefields' to cleanse a region or to spread fear/intimidation, etc.

I will add here that the cases in the Bosnian-Croation-Serbian war are not the only ones, nor were they the first--and yes there is a LOT OF HYPOCRISY in how the media demonized Serbia for crimes that most governments and military regimes have been guilty of--numerous times. [and feminists are very well aware of this fact]

And this type of violence towards women is increasing ten fold in our world today--used to be, there was a type of 'code of honour' in warfare--that is long gone--used to be, civilians weren't the main targets--that is long gone and has progressed worse and worse--

not to say this is a new phenomenom--it surely isn't, but at least 'on paper' there was a code--now we don't even have it on paper--now war porn and rape porn is a tool used IN EVERY MILITARY--WHY WE HAVE NUMEROUS WOMEN IN OUR OWN ARMED FORCES--WITH PTSD DUE TO BEING RAPED BY THEIR OWN MALE COMRADES--

ITS INEXCUSABLE-PERIOD.

Not only that--it gives Islamists the justifications and the fuel to throw at US--in other words, its futile to point out the barbarism and misogyny inherit in Islam--when we don't address the very same thing within our own ranks, society, military, etc. AND DONT' THINK THEY DON'T KNOW IT--they do and they thrive on it like hungry beasts.

It is one of the West's achilles heels--and its time to root it out. It is also important to point out that men too are raped in war as well--something not discussed and that includes in militaries [in fact its a big problem in Russia and in the US military--what they call 'command rape'--

but here's where its really relevant--trafficking and selling of porn on black market--made in rape camps [in various places] and that money,

guess who it supports? Guess who it benefits? Trafficking of women is, if not, the multi-billion dollar industry today and as you well know, now women in Serbia, and other former Soviet bloc countries are being trafficked into the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS into Kosovo, Middle East, Asia and YES AMERICA, [as well as women from Middle East, Pakastan, Iraq now, etc],

and the monies pay for alot of the terrorism and arms and black market deals--AND EVERYONE KNOWS IT.

So yes--violence towards women, and using rape, is a form of genocide that always comes back to hurt the societies and the women of the enemy as well as the ones who are victimized, no woman and no society is safe or safe from the ills and the repercussions, and that is passed down to the children who also suffer.

I have said I will read more about these photos and information and I will--and I am currently right now looking for women's rights advocates IN Serbia, who are addressing these cases [thus far I have not found any but I will still be looking] to add to the blog on women and Islam,

because as I said--the world needs to know the whole truth and I stand by that. And as much as it infuriated me to read and see photos and read testimonies of 12 year old girls being raped during that war--

it infuriates me JUST AS MUCH to hear about these cases right now in Kosovo, Albania, and worldwide--as a woman's rights advocate I do not support or 'tolerate' or 'make apologies' or acceptances just because a nation or people are not liked or maybe they have been guilty--in other words on those issues I don't hold favoritism and if women in Serbia and Albania, etc are being targeted and raped and tortured by Islamists then it needs to be exposed and the men held accountable--

to NOT expose it would be hypocritical and double standards. And so far I have not seen coverage on any feminist site in the west on this issue--

I will cover it, and I will bring it up in discussions and I will not make excuses for it--I'm known for standing against the norm and group think--

so rather than alieanate--you have one feminist here who WILL FIGHT FOR THE RIGHTS OF SERBIAN WOMEN--JUST AS MUCH AS ANY WOMAN.

as for the blog and the photos--I would like to know more, and I know there are women's rights organizations that would report on these crimes, because they ARE HUMAN RIGHT CRIMES--

and I am aware that people get caught up in war--war is hell, lets not fool ourselves and thats one thing that is hard I think for many in America in being quick to judge--we have not had invasions and conquests here in this country as they have in Europe, yes the Civil War and WWII as far as Pearl Harbor but we havent' had masses of people [other than Native Indians/slavery] being forced off lands and butchered and masses of refugees, as the Balkans regions did in WWI, WWII, etc...before that--

so yes--its easy to point fingers and be arrogant [and I realize that] when one does not understand what THEY WOULD DO IN THAT ENVIRONMENT/SITUATION...and I do know thus far from what little I have read about the Balkans that has been the treatment--the whole 'they are savages and violent and the demonization' and you are right--

it is biased, it is racist, it is not fair nor is it right--and I've seen that demonization in books--and the bias, even in the Holocaust--there were Germans who resisted that we barely hear about, until recently, there were Roma Gypsies where were butchered that for years they had to fight for recognition and there were Jews who opposed them being included--there were Jews who did work with the Nazi's--even the 'neutral' country of Switzerland did a lot to assist the Nazi's and the trains of people went through that country and they did nothing--

you have to understand that people in the west, only saw the images and stories about the camps and butchering and the stories--even today there is NOTHING on the news about what is going on over there--

but you have people right here on this forum who are listening and reading and paying attention--you have a door to inform here, not everyone in the West is so gullible to believe it was just bad Serbs and innocent Bosnians, etc..and its becoming more obvious to the manipulation and distortions by the press--what many have a hard time with is sorting through the validity and the ultra-nationalism, and many are hesitant--

but as I said--pictures don't lie. So--you have many here who are listening--so share, you have the evidence and the testimonies then show them--and the ones [since its my area of focus] about trafficking and rapes of women/abuses I will post and write on...

because as a feminist [and why I do speak out against Islam--and will continue to do so because systematically its The worst for sanctioning abuse of women] it would be a disservice to women's rights worldwide to not expose what is going on in the Balkans regions and against the Serbian women.

Sincerely,

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 30, 2007 3:49 AM

Natasha and every other Serb or non western Christian or person,

The west led by America and the UK operates a hopeless and hypocritical double standard when it comes to islam.
They call terrorists, terrorists when Americans, Brits, Austrailians,Western europeans are the victims.
They condemn Russia & China for selling arms to iran, while selling to the saudis, gulf arabs and pakistan, they grant political asylum to terrorists and their supporters to gain favour with their domestic and foreign moslem allies.

This war with islam will be won by Russia, China, Serbia, Israel and India joined by the smaller SE Asian countries.

The west is morally weak, they condemn nations and people that have the moral confidence and sense of national honour to stand up and fight islam.
They will sell and in the process destroy themselves for oil.

This story from the London Times shows how the issue is best dealt with, note however the concern for "human rights"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/china/article2116123.ece

Israel is the civilised worlds only allie against islam.
If the Monkey boy Bush and his poodle Blair and all their advisors had any brains they would have

A/ armed and trained, supplied the Christians and Animist africans in the South Sudan to break away and become independent.

B/Done the same for the Darfurians

C/Encouraged the creation of an Independent and Secular Kurdistan, with complete freedom of religion.

D/Supported every Iranian opposition organisation and subverted the mullahs.

Further they should have visited Russia after Beslan and placed wreaths and offered Russia an alliance.
They could have just remained neutral with regards to Kosovo and Bosnia, yes the wars were brutal but not genocide.

Lets be honest and frank.
If the 9/11 attacks had occurred on India or Russia would the west be fighting a war on terror ??

I have watched Fox news on occaision when threats from Al Queda are made against the USA, the west and India, curiously Fox always drops India, the only thing they care about is the west and they are willing to sell the Serbs, Russians, Chinese and us Indians for their own greed and security.

Regards

AI

Posted by: apostate_islam at July 30, 2007 6:09 AM

Right AI. There should be an international organization monitoring Islam related conflicts in the world because wherever Muslims start Jihad, they also start aggressive propaganda campaign. Small countries like Serbia can't compete with Saudi sponsored PR firms and always lose media war.

For example, it is not hard to predict what will happen next in Kosovo - Muslims will stage another "incident" and blame the Serbs. Media will report their lies and status talks will be stopped. In the USA there will be media outrage about "Serbs killing innocent civilians" and new European Muslim state will be recognized in days. Don't believe me?

http://www.serbianna.com/news/2007/02092.shtml

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 30, 2007 6:40 AM

Fun with "positive" Kosovo Albanians :)

http://video.urbae.com/user/YTBAPA/rm66bhmx50lip9fomd29mou7xko8dru4

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 30, 2007 8:11 AM

"And you've gotta laugh when it's ltpf's hero in the Balkans - a monsieur Izetbegovic- who recruited for the SS and based his philosophy on those Arab NAZIs the Muslim Brotherhood."

so i have a hero who i have never heard of now? so now i'm a holocaust revisionist? along with being a "neo-fascist". wow my double split personality is truly getting ahead of me. next i'm gonna be accused of being cloned from a hitler gene and in fact i am really on a mission for meglomaniac world domination, sieg heil! I vill Kontrol ze vorld" arm raising in like "doctor strangle love" fashion.

some of you guys are truly paranoid.

all i stated was, a) why the support of a communist regime led by milosovic?
b) im against genocide
c) i am totally against the arming and support of milosovic by the west in the early 80's.
d) oh and i also support the democratic state of israel and the rights and freedoms of the great jewish peoples across the world.

please tell me how that compares me to hitlers demonic sick twisted holocaust revisionism?

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 30, 2007 12:20 PM

ewha1

8000 men massacred is not genocide?

The Hague considered it genocide.

"Presiding Judge Theodor Meron stating:
By seeking to eliminate a part of the Bosnian Muslims [Bosniaks], the Bosnian Serb forces committed genocide. They targeted for extinction the forty thousand Bosnian Muslims living in Srebrenica, a group which was emblematic of the Bosnian Muslims in general. They stripped all the male Muslim prisoners, military and civilian, elderly and young, of their personal belongings and identification, and deliberately and methodically killed them solely on the basis of their identity."

but you obviously know more than judge meron.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 30, 2007 12:27 PM

3000 of these 8000 voted in next Bosnian elections.
http://www.counterpunch.org/johnstone10122005.html

Judge Meron probably is not quite sure in which part of Africa is Bosnia located.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 30, 2007 12:39 PM

leonthepigfarmer, since you are such an expert on genocide, how will you for instance describe the british slaugther of Kenyans during the Mau Mau uprising in the 50's?

Serbs have been living in Bosnia for centuries and are the native people of Bosnia as much as any other ethnic group in Bosnia, and they have every right to fight a defensive war to defend themselves from being islamized in their own country.

Please enlighten me what was the british excuse for slaughtering other people in their own lands? Were the wars that the British fought in africa or against Hindus in India in anyway defensive wars where they were defending their own territory?

Posted by: European Crusader at July 30, 2007 1:59 PM

I just noticed leon has never heard of izetbegovic. Discussing the war in Bosnia without knowing of izetbegovic is like discussing World War II without knowing of hitler.

Posted by: European Crusader at July 30, 2007 2:26 PM

To Natasha,

Thanks for the detailed description of the Muslim
rape & genocide of the Slavic Christian Orthodox Serbs over the centuries right to the present day.
It was illogical for Clinton, a President of the USA to bomb Yugoslavia to pulp.

It was also very wrong to sponsor & organise the jihad against the erstwhile Soviet Union by Afghan mujahedin.

It is also wrong to force idiotic "land for peace" deals down the throats of the Israeli people.

It is also atrocious for pompous European & American officials such as the obnoxious
Madeleine Albright, Bill Clinton, Colin Powell
to attempt arm twisting of India in order to extract concessions for islamists in Kashmir & the rest of India.

And - I have a question for the moderators of this site. I have had seen some of my posts, pertaining to Pakistan deleted on other threads.

Can someone explain why ?

Regards.

Posted by: karyakarta92 at July 30, 2007 5:00 PM

british colonialism was wrong to some degrees. now the UK is paying the price for this with the decendants of the empire returning home.

but no, my ignorance of serbian history doesn't mean that i cannot comment on the slaughter of unarmed humans during war.

btw i took part in protests against the NATO led operation against the serbian people at the time of the kosovan war. i believed that the slaughter of serbs for defending their spiritual homeland against albanians in kosovo was and is a just cause.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 30, 2007 5:29 PM

"i believed that the slaughter of serbs for defending their spiritual homeland against albanians in kosovo was and is a just cause."

sorry, this last statement makes no sense.

i demonstrated in support of the serbs for wanting to defend their homeland, thats honourable.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 30, 2007 5:33 PM

LazarOfSerbia:

I didn't notice a date on that Sky News clip you posted. Do you know when that piece originally aired?

Thanks.

Posted by: TPS at July 30, 2007 5:37 PM

leon:
And just as the British Empire shouldn't be automatically branded as evil because it committed attrocities in some of its campaigns, so is the conflict in Bosnia far more complicated than it was portrayed in the western media.

Posted by: European Crusader at July 30, 2007 5:56 PM

European Crusader

this is agree. im reading up on all your stuff, links etc, totally changing my perception. i was in the UK when hte serbor craot war wass raging. met many folk fleeing and refugees in hte uk. i heard more stories of serbian agression then islamic agression. so my biased is more towards hating the milosovic regime. i remember a lot of the stories coming out were totally bogus, like hte concentration pic of that emaciated guy, turns out he had TB and was not a death starvation camp.

also during hte Kosovo war, this is swear each time a group of albanian refugees were shown fleeing one town they would show the same woman, protestor speaking in good english that this was genocide that muslims were being slaughtered. i would point her out to my flat mates as each day passed. it was so staged but hte press and british public lapped it up.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at July 30, 2007 8:14 PM

replies to replies,

I've written on the failures and 'capitalist' interests of the US--many times, maybe not so much here but I am well aware of the 'oil interests' and I do believe I mentioned the FACT that the US was in bed with Suharto--and the genocide against East Timor [Ford}, so I am in no way accomodating the US policy--

but politically speaking thats governents, all do the deals with the devil to some degree--some of course more than others.

I started reading another of the books on the history of the Balkans last night--one of several I have picked up along the way and had not read yet,

wow first of all--that whole region, first the Greeks then the Slavs/Mongolians then the Persians [or other way around] then the Germans then the Turks-Arabs--

thats before the Ottoman Empire took hold==

but this book is really good because it goes into great detail about how the Ottoman Turks not only took power/conquest and the slavery--one Interesting note however--

their 'harems' actually later were the very achilles heels for the empire, the Sultans, the discord [which of course is sure to be expected, tells you how stupid misogyny is] but the discord was the weakness -- one of the main ones,

then the unrest of the Janissaries--another interesting note[esp in comparisons because they haven't changed that much in how they do things],

is how the janissaries became unsatisfied and revolted, this happened over generations of course but we always hear about the tax--

what people need to hear also--is the 'forcing to non-believers to pay tribute with their very own children--giving them over as slaves'.

It also said the Albanians were effected differently due to the region and dispersement of the Turkish rulers--thats as far as I gotten, as its a pretty large book but I thought it was interesting in that before the Ottoman Turks there was division but it was like through time/years the people were united or would unite--the tensions weren't there,

and as I read through the chapters the Turks did more to cause division/ and actual Balkanization than all the invasions and migrations and adaptations before--

ONE thing though that did strike my interest is how the Serbian Slavs had this pre-communist agricultural society and the author says its still that way--That did impress me--he goes into some detail [not as much as I would have liked] but the way the society was set up before the Turks got there, was actually quite advanced in that time--

they had an economic system Oh and that was it--they had a strong 'equality' system due to the formation of how the agriculture was set up--in that day and age That is something--

and it wasn't fuedalistic, compared to the regions of that epoch. So that has perked my interest even more than reading about the Ottomans [which its just so obvious--when you read in detail how the whole regime/slavery is set up, established and maintained--and the comparisons today--

its like they are still back in 1400.

Anyway--a report came in today about another worker, a young woman, on death row in Saudi--her crime,

well she was a slave- and the infant died in her care--they didn't say how, [Human Rights Watch] by the sound of it it was SDS, and she wasn't even over 18 when it happened--

probably a trafficked labor slave.

I see these labor cases nearly every week--the young girl is from Sri Lanka [another country in conflict and poverty that is horrid]...

as for the trafficking--someone mentioned my writing on the rapes--I was referring to rapes in general used in war==and related to some of the work I did with Biser [because I have worked on women's issues] but--

I will post here on the trafficking cases because its EXTREME in the Balkans and from parts of Europe--and the trafficking routes are a huge part--based through the ENTIRE MUSLIM WORLD--

but not just Muslim--but a huge part, and also,

Organ sales on black market--some taken from 'live' children/poor.

Why I bring those issues up because its all tied into the world wide global slavery that is increasing--and yes--a huge part of it [esp funding] is the political Islamists--but globalists/western and other transnationals as well--

you won't get argumetns from me there--but whereever--the People are at the mercy of this global labyrnth--and its not just US and UK--the 'agencies' of these corporations are worldwide [of course from developed nations] and they are pulling the strings more than people realize--and its governments doing their bidding.

Natasha

Posted by: Natasha at July 31, 2007 12:30 AM

>>british colonialism was wrong to some degrees. now the UK is paying the price for this with the decendants of the empire returning home.

Sounds like the chickens are coming home to roost.
And yet, some of the Englishmen continue, to the present day with their pompous prescriptions to other nations that have suffered infinitely more from jihad.
Inciting and recruiting Kashmiri Muslims against Hindu India, Bosnian Muslims against Orthodox Serbia, Chechens against Slavic Russia ...

It is simply ignorance and arrogance that causes this English disdain for potential friends & allies, this pomposity that militates against every survival instinct.

Posted by: karyakarta92 at July 31, 2007 2:11 AM

TBS,

This is original page:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,91134-bosnia_p3705,00.html

They say "a decade after the end of the war (1995)", so it is from 2005 or so.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 31, 2007 3:21 AM

I would also ask all anti-jihadists here to sign a petition demanding UN investigation into Ahtisaari bribery:
http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2007/07/ahtisaari-bribery-petition.html

Summary:

We the undersigned demand of UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon and the Bush Administration, a full, speedy and transparent, investigation regarding the allegations made against former UN Special Envoy for Kosovo, Marti Ahtisaari, that he was paid by the Albanian mafia to produce his recommendations for the future status of Kosovo as an independent entity, with the results of this investigation to made public. Further, we demand to know whether or not the specific German BND report mentioned below does exist and, if so, who else is implicated in this corruption scandal and what the evidence it against them. Finally, we want to know what action has been and will be taken by the UN, should any and all of these allegation prove true.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 31, 2007 3:31 AM

For those who have guts to see Muslim crimes against Bosnian Serbs:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6431302053204441995

Again - WARNING!
Very graphic images and video evidence of beheadings, torture etc.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at July 31, 2007 4:37 AM

Atheling I'll try not to be rude

leonthepigfarmer, the moment you start comparing Hitler to people like Milosevic - you haven't read the Slobo trial transcripts have you, they're hilarious. Really give it a go, pick ANY witness in the transcripts and see how weak the case against Slobo was and how powerful his defence was -then you are belittling the crimes of the NAZIs. Really you are. And it is a favourite ploy of NeoNazis the world over.

And don't be silly, ltpf, It's not a case of "paranoia".It's just a fact that by making ridiculous comparisons you aremaking light of Hitler's crimes. Moral equivalence and all that.

ltpf""8000 men massacred is not genocide?

You haven't read the transcripts of the Krle , Blagojević and Jokić ad nauseam have you? Of course you haven't. In fact i'd wager you don't know who Krle is do you? Or maybe who was the senior Serb General in the area who had a wee drinking problem? No idea do you. Instead so you just paste a paragraph from one of the judges and that's that.

Well here are just a few of the flaws in the 8,000 were executed argument.

The 28th Div Column

a) The prosecution don't actually claim that 8,000 were executed - leonthepigfarmer didn't even bother to read the opening addrss to the Krle trial did he. Naughty naughty - They said that 8,000 disappeared between the fall of Srebrenica on the 11th to a few weeks after. They admitted that many 1,000's were killed as the 28th division made it's way to Tuzla. They also admitted that these deaths were legitimate kills. i.e. in fighting.

b) The ICRC ( red cross ) counted between 1500 and 3000 men of fighting age on the buses that took the women and children from Srebrenica to Muslim gov't lines. Up to 3000 were allowed to leave Srebrenica by the Serbs plus all the women , kids and elderly.

Some Genocide

c) The ICTY thought that about 2,000 men were killed in total in the column as they were attacked by the Drina Corps. However, their final total simply doesn't tally with the individual battles that raged the length of the route.

d) Within a day of the 28th's breakout attempt the BLIB - go on , ltpf , what does that stand for?- cut off the second half of the column at the Nova Kasaba road - sealing the civillians of the column. They then lined up Praga AA guns , lowered the barrells and fired 20mm and 30mm shells into the tree tops, the shrapnel would rain down and wipe out any unprotected people. You can see footage of this.They were firing at point blank range at soft targets. These guns bring down attack helicopters.

Shooting fish in a barrel.

e) At the same time the VRS infiltrated men into the panicstricken column and set about them with knives. No mercy in the Prodrinje plateau from either side.

f) The ABIH think they lost between 700 and 2000 men there. And it wasn't even the end of the second day. The VRS spoke of slightly higher numbers. It was the classic duck shoot. A few years later and a Finnish team found the bodies of 600 fallen muslims in just one area.

2000 does seem to be a valid number for this area.

g) After the VRS realised where the 28th was - Mladic and his men had assumed they were holed up in the Bandera triangle , south of Srebrenica - they rerouted elite fresh troops to set up massive ambushes for the column. They used tanks, howitzers, Pragas, everything. At Snagovo for instance they even chucked in anti tank missiles which produced the most horrific burns on the muslims. VRS witnesses who saw this fighting said it was the most horrific they'd seen in the entire civil war. Amazingly the 28th broke through though they suffered 100's of casualties in each of these gargantuan ambushes. It was after this ambush that the VRS started to refer to the column as "crazed beasts" and that the muslims were "clawing and scrambling over our tanks"

h) Mines. The VRS and the ABIH had set up huge minefields and the column walked right into them. From the off the column had to crawl in single file through a minefield. They lost a whole day that signed their fate.

i) Artillery. The VRS are the best in the business and they zeroed in to the column by tracing the Motorollas the column used to communicate with each other. The survivors spoke of it being deadly accurate. You can see footage of this of a group of muslims being hit by a direct hit and when the smoke clears there's nothing.

k) Starvation. The column had food for one day. This is a mountainous forested area and it was boiling hot. Boiling. It took the better part of the week to make it. The few who made it to gov't lines were hallucinating , in rags and out of their minds.

l) Lost. Few of the muslims knew the area and many just got lost, wandering round the area, out of food and water. The route was almost 100km over treacherous gorges and high mountains. Tough in peacetime with full provisions. In wartime with no food?

m) mass suicides. Muslim witnesses spoke of huge numbers wiping themselves and their buddies out. The tress were full of muslims who preferred death to surrender. They'd hung themselves with belts etc.

n) At Baljkovica, the Serbs had spent almost a week digging in for the onslaught. At this time the ABIH had started copying the Banzai charge for many were out of ammo. They'd simple charge headlong into the Serb armor. Now , to this day, the ABIH simply refuse to talk of how many men they'd lost. No one really knows. Think of a big number then double it.

o) After the lines were resealed ,the VRS ruthlessly hunted down the stragglers of which they reckon there were around 3,000 of whom only 1,000 made it to Tuzla , some taking a year to make it. They VRS used 100s of dogs to hunt down this mass of starving and largely unarmed men. This too was legitimate - as admitted by Major Butler - the prosecution expert witness.

So even the ABIH and ICTY's number suggest many 1,000 were killed in very one sided firefights.

The Witnesses

There were two prime Bosnian Serb witnesses who supposedly gave brilliant testimony that nailed the Serbs once and for all. Unfortunately they were terrible.
Erdemovic
Erdemovic for instance
1) had spent a long time in a lunatic asylum.
2) wasn't even a Serb but a Bosnian Croat
3) had somehow managed to fight for all three sides in the war
4) lied under oath
5) his unit the 10th Sabotage Detachment , was made up exclusively of NON Serbs for most of the war.
6) he had no idea of his salarly whilst a member of the VRS. Couldn't even hazard a wild guess.
7) He claimed his men were paid in gold for murdering some POWs. The VRS was bankrupt by that time.
8) The colonel who ordered them to murder the POWs was a strange figure. Erdemovich didn't know his name, had never seen him before or since and wasn't even claiming to be in the same unit.
9) A few days after the farm killings Erdemovich is nearly killed by his comrades in a coffee shop. He claims he can't remember why. Believable? So they were just having a coffee and then everyone tries to kill Erdemovich? Now either he's lying or he has amnesia.
10) When news of what may have happened filters through to Belgrade, Slobo has all the members of Erdemovich's unit locked up and charged with mass murder.
11) When Slobo is illegally kicked out of office, the new PRO NATO gov't release all the 10th SD are released. ALL of them.
12) Amazingly, and if you don't find THIS amazing, then nothing is, they start to freelance themselves out to
a) the ICTY. Yes, the very same ICTY, who pay these mass murderers to bounty hunt naughty Bosnian Serbs who are wanted by the ICTY
b)the French who pay them to fight in Zaire/ Congo.
c) They are all allowed to settle in the West as free as a bird. The US has a few of them and one was arrested for drunk driving recently.
d) Erdemovic is tried by the ICTY. Remember, he's admitted murdering in cold blood about 100 POWs so the ICTY don't actually charge him with the murders and release him with a new life and ID in the West.
Nicolic
Other witnesses like Nicolic
were just as bad. He also had been confined to a loony bin. He lived a walter mitty life. He'd walk around in raybans with this superior air about him. Immaculately turned out. He obviously thought he was some kind of movie James Bond for he was the Intel Officer. Now his unit, the BLIB was made up part time farmers. Rustic down to earth stuff. Get the ridiculous picture of this guy? Now they hated Nicolic with interest. He'd been blamed for getting many of them killed through his stupidity so they kicked the crap out of him. Really kicked the crap out of him. So much so he went nuts and so ended up in a nut house. After the war he was charged with a fraud scam. He admitted that he made a lot of stuff up. You see he'd had a chat with the ICTY and they said, the more names you give us the better for you. So he admitted he lied and lied.

Not a convincing picture is it?

The intercepts

Now the Dutch report into Srebrenica realises that this was all weak stuff. Certainly not enough for any kind of conviction on anything. So a great deal of weight was put into the intercepts that the muslims made of VRS communications. Now this was the key evidence. But this was worthless bollox too.

a) The eavesdroppers for the most part didn't bother with dates. Yes, that's right. For page after page after page, they write down what they intercepted by wouldn't bother with a half dozen numbers that would give the time of the conversation. Now if you've even spent one second in any military in the world, you'll see they write dates for everything. And we're supposed to believe that the elite intelligence units in an army with the best brains and resources don't bother with dates?

b) Hilariously, some of the books used by this elite organisation were childrens school books. Bizarre isn't it. One of the books was actually a primary school maths book with a pink elephant on the cover. I shit you not my friend. Credible?

c) Very often they wouldn't even record the names of the people talking. You see they'd switch on the recording button after they realised that it was some hot shot officer on the line but by then they'd already said who they were so the name wouldn't be captured. Credible?

d) Now just before the Krle trial -found out who the guy is yet?. Quick do a google- all this tapes the ABIH had were mysteriously destroyed in a fire com flood. Yes what a coincidence, just before Krles' defence team could examine the tapes they went up in smoke. And at the same time drowned. This meant all we had were those silly childrens' maths' books with Dumbo the elephant on the cover. Credible?

e) Now the ABIH never mentioned they'd been intercepting the VRS's communications. For well over a year after they'd supposedly recorded all these seniour VRS officers talking of "parcels" and "wiping out the POWs" they said nothing.

But why the silence and for so long on the part of the ABIH?

Now this is difficult for even the ICTY to explain but they tried to explain it away by saying that no one in the World had thought that the "missing" muslims had been executed for almost a year. Now this is an out and out lie. Almost immediately the MSM started blather on about executions and missing POWs. The answer is obvious. It took the ABIH time to plant incrimminating talk amongs't the genuine harmless intercepts.

f) In the Krle trial the prosecution was having a hard time proving anything. So, right at the end they produced a tape segment that had been saved from the fire-cum-flooding that supposedly had Krle saying "kill allthe beastily POWs and the glorious Serbs will be able to rule the world....forever he he he he he" or something similar. However even their own voice expert couldn't confirm it was Krle's voice. Credible evidence?

Demographics

I'm busy so i'll cover this at a later stage plus some more. Sorry.

So that's it.

Nearly all the missing were killed legitimately in one sided ruthless battles. Just like most wars , it's not like those stupid cowboy movies where one guy draws quicker than another, it's one sided massacres. Ruthlessly carried out.

A couple of 100 were executed by local VRS out for some much wanted revenge. They'd been order by Mladic, in writing and verbally ,to obey the Geneva Convention at all times but Mladic miscalculated.

Eastern Bosnia was like nowhere else.

Pure revenge.

Pure hatred.

Many local farmers were out for revenge, orders or no orders.

So, ltpf, stop being naive by making silly comparisons. It just makes words meaningless. Try not to believe everything that the MSM spew. I get the idea you're a bit naive and too gullible. Hence the silly Slobo = Hitler nonsense. A little like Wodehouse it seems. And do read a couple of pages from the Slobo trial. It should be illuminating.

Posted by: ewha1 at August 1, 2007 8:14 AM