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The closest this latest exercise in half-measures comes to getting at the heart of the matter is the project organizer's noting that "some got really confused when you put jihad next to it. Jihad has got a sacred context, so things that were unacceptable became acceptable." He adds, "We had to dig down to defuse the misconception," but he doesn't say how. And aiming to "defuse" (poor word choice) "misconceptions" still dances around the fact that the jihad doctrine is the problem in that it prescribes open-ended warfare against non-believers.
And pretending jihad violence is really something else (say, hirabah) does not change the fact that its perpetrators are motivated by and directly cite Islamic teachings on jihad. Anything short of engaging those texts is window-dressing. And if they don't engage those texts, others will, and not necessarily to discourage jihad.
By Jane Perlez for the New York Times:
BRADFORD, England -- At the Jamia Mosque on Victor Street in this racially and religiously tense town, Idris Watts, a teacher and convert to Islam, tackled a seemingly mundane subject with a dozen teenage boys: why it is better to have a job than to be unemployed.
[...]
The back and forth represented something new in Britain’s mosques: a government-financed effort to teach basic citizenship issues in a special curriculum intended to reach students who might be vulnerable to Islamic extremism.
In the long haul, the British government hopes that such civics classes, which use the Koran to answer questions about daily life, will replace the often tedious and sometimes hard-core religious lessons taught in many mosques across the land. Often, these lessons emphasize rote learning of the Koran and are taught by imams who were born in Pakistan and speak little English and have little contact with British society.
Written by a Bradford teacher, Sajid Hussain, 34, who holds a degree from Oxford, the new curriculum is being taught in some religious classes here in a city that is increasingly segregated between South Asians and whites. The pilot effort in Bradford has the backing and the financing from the Labor government as part of a hearts-and-minds campaign that it hopes will eventually spread to other cities and help better integrate the country’s mainstream Muslims into British culture. Approximately two million Muslims, mostly of Pakistani and Bangladeshi origin, live in Britain.
Since four British Muslim suicide bombers attacked the London transit system in July 2005 and two other major terrorist plots were uncovered last year that British Muslim men were suspected of planning, British officials have been struggling with how to isolate the extremist Muslim minority from the moderate majority.
The new prime minister, Gordon Brown, said at his first news conference last month that he wanted to demonstrate the "importance we attach to nonviolence" and "the importance we attach to the dignity of each individual," and in the process make unpalatable the "extreme message of those who practice violence and would maim and murder citizens on British soil."
"The question for us is, how we can separate those extremists from the moderate mainstream majority?" he said.
One of the virtues of the curriculum in Bradford in applying Mr. Brown’s vision, according to his aides, is that it is taught by forward-leaning imams and is based on matching messages from the Koran to everyday life in Britain. The Labor government has been particularly concerned because, in part through its involvement in the Iraq war, it lacks credibility with many British Muslims.
An estimated 100,000 school-age Muslim children attend religious classes held at mosques in Britain daily, generally after regular school hours, said Jane Houghton, a spokeswoman for the Department of Communities and Local Government. "The impact this teaching could have is quite considerable," she said.
But as much as the government likes the curriculum, it has faced opposition from some Muslims.
Why, asked Nuzhat Ali, the women’s coordinator of the Islamic Society of Britain in Bradford, should Muslim children be singled out for civics lessons?
"One of our primary concerns is: why the Muslim community again?" Mrs. Ali said. "Extremism is a problem in all communities, especially among the British National Party," she said, referring to a right-wing party that has articulated white supremacist views. "The issue of terror and extremism needs to be addressed across the board rather than saying: ‘Here, Muslims, go into your corner and have your curriculum.’ "
Red herring. Even if BNP members had killed dozens of people in train and bus bombings, that wouldn't tell us anything about Islam. And they haven't, while Muslims have.
Some of the specifics of the curriculum met with disapproval, too.
In lesson plans provided to imams by Mr. Hussain, the teachers were asked to pose questions to their students based on recent events in Britain.
In one example, the students were to be asked what they would do if a friend bought a large quantity of fertilizer and announced he planned to build a bomb out of it. The question was based on the evidence in a recent trial in London in which five Muslim men were found guilty of buying fertilizer, storing it and planning to use it for a terrorist attack.
[...]
After a heated meeting with the critics in Bradford, Mr. Hussain, who said he had submitted the curriculum to a vetting panel of half a dozen Muslim scholars, agreed to remove the examples from the curriculum. "They were perhaps a little too frontal," he said.
But the important point, Mr. Hussain said, was to show Muslim students that their religion provided some answers to issues they confronted every day.
They understand that it’s wrong to go out and commit suicide bombings," Mr. Hussain said. "But some got really confused when you put jihad next to it. Jihad has got a sacred context, so things that were unacceptable became acceptable. We had to dig down to defuse the misconception."
Read it all.
Posted by Marisol at August 21, 2007 12:10 AM
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"The question for us is, how we can separate those extremists from the moderate mainstream majority?" he [Gordon Brown] said.
--- from the article above
Perhaps Gordon Brown could have a chat with Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Wafa Sultan, and Ibn Warraq. They all know English perfectly. They are all extremely intelligent. They all were born into Islam, and are intimately familiar with what Islam inculcates, what Muslims learn, and what their real attitudes toward the Infidel West are and, because of the texts and tenets of Islam, will always be, safe for a few exceptions at the margins, those of the largely-unobervant, or embarrassed-but-still-filiopietistic Muslims, or those who call themselves "only cultural Muslims" or those whose every act betrays them as being "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslims -- but of course, those people are not really "moderate" Muslims but simply "bad" Muslims, Muslims who are not following the tenets of the faith.
The peoples and governments of the Western world, and indeed of other Infidel lands, should not be required to entrust their security to the fact that some Muslims, and possibly only temporarily, will become "bad" Muslims.
It's a matter of numbers. In France, for example, three of Sarkozy's highest appointments have been of (nominally) Muslim women. Take Rachida Dati. She has been Sarkozy's most visible example. For all I know, she is now an apostate. She certainly ignores a great deal of Islam. So she's okay. But she is one of ll children, born to immigrant Muslism. What about the other ten, two of whom have been imprisoned for criminal activites, and all of whom, and whosee progeny too, we can assume unless we learn otherwise, are Muslims and are helping to swell the ranks of Muslims in France.
Do we concentrate, sentimentally, on the example of Rachida Dati herself to justify not taking much stronger measures to reduce the Muslim presence in France? Clearly, no. It is the other ten siblings in her family, and not Rachida Dati, who will determine the effect of that family of Muslim immigrants on France and the French, their schools, their politics, their everything. The sentimentalist will focus on the success story. The realist, alas, will be forced to focus on the ten others who are part of another story.
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at August 21, 2007 12:51 AM
My first take on this nonsense is that they are playing with fire. Or more like with nitroglycerin. Based upon what I have learned and read about the Koran. The violent passages are so many and interwove into the book a total rewrite is needed.
Proverbs 18:2
A fool finds no pleasure in understanding
but delights in airing his own opinions.
الأمثال 18:2
معتوه لا يجد السعاده تفاهم
بل يتلذذ بث آراءه الشخصيه.
at August 21, 2007 1:15 AM
"what would mohammed do?" ???????
Forget the fact such illucidity doesn't belong in any classrom of a civilized country, the answer is a no-brainer (aka street term: DUH!):
"kill them",
same answer as everything else that dares to tell islam:
Lan Astaslem!
("I will not submit!")
They actually have to ASK such a stupid question???
No place for death cults in civics classes, except for examples of the complete opposite of the same.
at August 21, 2007 1:20 AM
Another assumption that Mr. Brown and some many other Infidel leaders take is the idea of a minority of Muslims misinterpreted the passage. It might even be sadder than that with todays PC thinking 'Your truth vs my truth'.
Posted by: Im.mad.as.HELL! at August 21, 2007 1:37 AM
It is sad and terrifying. If these ignorant westerners really cared what moohamed would do they would ban ALL travel and immigration of muslims to their countries.
Moohamed would first steal. Then lie. Cheating would come soon. Then the lust of conquest would set in so a little rape could calm him. Then maybe some "just for the fun of it" murder of the husband of the woman he raped. After a nappy and happy meal moohamed would be ready for the night's treat. A little lotion and a young boys bum to have and attack. Then before the sun rises he must of course murder the woman and boy because they caused him to lust and lose control.
Stupid, idiots in the west. There is not one thing just said that was not done by this profet of piece. May God help us to see the satanic origins in islam.
Posted by: vulcan at August 21, 2007 1:38 AM
This confirms what I have always suspected. In order to fight Islamic hostility effectively, west has to clean it's house of corrupt, timid politicians. America has one chance in 2008 and Tom Tancredo, in all his human limitations, has the right perspective of the dangers we face: http://www.teamtancredo.com
Posted by: Alert at August 21, 2007 1:44 AM
"Why, asked Nuzhat Ali, the women’s coordinator of the Islamic Society of Britain in Bradford, should Muslim children be singled out for civics lessons?"
The answer to Ali's question is simple, because Muslims terrorize and kill. They don't want to live by the same rules as everyone else in Britain.
But it's a question that Gordon Brown should ask himself. Why not Catholic schools? Why not Anglican schools? Why not Baptist schools? Because there's nothing in the theology of these faiths that is likely to produce graduates who will go on to a life of murder in the name of the the theology they were taught in their schools.
You would think that Mr. Brown's common sense would tell him that schools are only one part of the problem. These children are raised in families and communities that glorify terrorists and killers as Martyrs. If Muslim Fathers and Mothers taught their children that suicide killers are criminals that not not heros to be honored, and that their actions were sinful in God's eyes, and that they are more likely to go to hell than Paradise, than Muslim schools aren't likely to turn their students into murderers.
This is just another superficial program based on a superficial understanding of the Islamic culture of British Muslims.
If Mr. Boown ever wakes up from his stupor, he'll start deporting any Muslim -- and the immediaste families of Muslims -- that display the slightest disloyality to Britian. Period.
at August 21, 2007 1:49 AM
Ms. Ali's reference to the BNP is hardly fair. When's the last time they've committed acts that can amount to "extremism"?
Posted by: atheling at August 21, 2007 2:06 AM
More PC (Prove Crap) ideas from the Socialist/Communist/Fascist/Islamist lovers of Jihadist.
How long are the True Citizens of the U.K. stuck with struggling for survival with this fellow Gordon Brown and his gang?
Posted by: senor doeboy at August 21, 2007 2:21 AM
WWMD?
In the long haul, the British government hopes that such civics classes, which use the Koran to answer questions about daily life, will replace the often tedious and sometimes hard-core religious lessons taught in many mosques across the land.Okay, maybe some Brits here can help me out, by stating what questions about daily life in the UK can be answered by the following Quranic verses (all Hilaly-Khan) - picked from the first 9 chapters:
1:6-7 Guide us to the Straight Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)Looks increasingly every day like Britain has no one to turn to but the BNP. Maybe they could use verse 7:4 above to demonstrate how Muslims ought to be dealt with.
2:223 Your wives are a tilth for you, so go to your tilth (have sexual relations with your wives in any manner as long as it is in the vagina and not in the anus), when or how you will, and send (good deeds, or ask Allah to bestow upon you pious offspring) before you for your ownselves. And fear Allah, and know that you are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give good tidings to the believers (O Muhammad SAW).
3:28 Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment) and to Allah is the final return.
4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to Allah and to their husbands), and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husband's property, etc.). As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful), but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.
5:33 The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.
6:70 And leave alone those who take their religion as play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But remind (them) with it (the Qur'an) lest a person be given up to destruction for that which he has earned, when he will find for himself no protector or intercessor besides Allah, and even if he offers every ransom, it will not be accepted from him. Such are they who are given up to destruction because of that which they have earned. For them will be a drink of boiling water and a painful torment because they used to disbelieve.
7:04 And a great number of towns (their population) We destroyed (for their crimes). Our torment came upon them (suddenly) by night or while they were sleeping for their afternoon rest.
8:39 And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.
9:30 And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
Also, the Quran is O level. For A level, Bukhari will be used as well.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 21, 2007 3:00 AM
Muslim: "We had to dig down to defuse the misconception."
Sheik Yer'mami asks: How deep?
"Remember there's a big difference between kneeling down and bending over.",
Frank Zappa.
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at August 21, 2007 3:22 AM
From the article " a right wing party which has articulated white supremacist views".
WHEN?
at August 21, 2007 4:11 AM
An estimated 100,000 school-age Muslim children attend religious classes held at mosques in Britain daily, generally after regular school hours, said Jane Houghton, a spokeswoman for the Department of Communities and Local Government.
So that's 100,000 kids being indoctrinated to believe in the supremacy of Islam. That's great news for Britain's future, I don't think.
And what is this "Department of Communities and Local Government"?
Communities?
This means culturally (and often racially) separate communities which have been allowed to thrive under the Government's naive multiculturalist policy.
Bradford is of course the town where police officer Sharon Beshenivsky was murdered in 2005 by a gang of immigrants. See:
Somali immigrant Yusuf Abdillh Jama, 20, was unanimously found guilty of the mother of three's murder, while Faisal Razzaq and his brother Hassan, who acted as lookouts, were convicted of her manslaughter.[...]
Earlier in the trial, a fourth man, 25-year- old Muzzaker Imtiaz Shah, had admitted murder, along with robbery and firearms charges. Both he and Jama face life in prison.
Jama's brother Mustaf, 26, was another member of the armed gang but has never been arrested and remains at large.
A sixth man Raza Ul-Haq Aslam, 25, was cleared of murder, manslaughter and firearms offences, but the jury is still considering a robbery charge against him.
Do you reckon they are Buddhists?
at August 21, 2007 4:28 AM
Latest Message to United States citizen jihad watchers:
We are at the beginning of the eighth day of posting this request at Jihad Watch, and we are up to 47 volunteers from 25 states. Florida and California are now tied, with 6 volunteers each.
I'm looking for at least two people in every state of the Union who would be willing to purchase a copy of Robert Spencer's Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't and mail it to one of the senators in your state. I'm organizing an effort to get the book simultaneously to all 100 senators, in order to send a strong message.
If we get more than two people per state, books can also be sent to the House of Representatives.
If you’d like to be involved, please write to me at traehnam@yahoo.com under the subject heading “Senate,” and tell me the state your senator represents, an email address where I can reach you, and a nickname. No need for your real name. And I will never share your email address with anyone, not even with other volunteers for this project.
And visit www.jihadawareness.blogspot.com to get more info on this project and to leave comments other volunteers can read. You can also see there the growing list of participants in this project, and the states their senators represent. I’ll try to update the list at least once a day. I've also designed a graphic that might amuse. Scroll down when you get to the site.
Once we have at least two people from every state, we can agree on a mailing date and then each of us can mail a copy of the book on that date.
Right before each of us mails the book, we can issue a press release to various media outlets in every state, and in that way announce and explain the mailing. And perhaps we can come up with some other ways of maximizing the effectiveness of this project and gaining as much positive attention as possible.
One of the project's volunteers suggested contacting Rep. Sue Myrick, who started the anti-Jihad caucus in Congress. I'll try to coordinate this project with Rep. Myrick to maximize its effectiveness. I've also been calling various congressional offices to get advice on how best to go about this. And I'll soon contact Regnery, Robert Spencer's publisher, to ask their advice and to see if we can coordinate with them in some way.
Posted by: traeh at August 21, 2007 5:19 AM
This sounds like a huge waste of time. It's another example of people deluding themselves about the magnitude of the problem, somewhat parallel to the Iraq democracy project.
Instead, accept the intrinsically violent, supremacist nature of Islam and act to protect yourself. In this case, a sane immigration policy is in order; monitor all mosques, and shutter the extremist ones. That's what Mohammed would do, after the raping, beheading and looting were concluded, that is.
at August 21, 2007 5:45 AM
Bradford, like many towns in this area, seems to be subject to contiunous efforts to end segregation, which always fail. It is depressing.
Although I agree with the author's drive to combat Islamic fundamentalism, he is not quite right on the B.N.P. They were, until relatively recently, linked to Loyalist paramilitaries in Northern Ireland, who have definitely killed many people, and the short-lived neo-Nazi terrorist group Combat 18. They claim to have changed now, but people are rightly still suspicious.
Posted by: Aveyard at August 21, 2007 6:01 AM
Moderate Muslims pay zakat, extremist Muslims receive it.
Posted by: FreeSpeech at August 21, 2007 6:25 AM
"British officials have been struggling with how to isolate the extremist Muslim minority from the moderate majority."
....start by banning Muslim immigration, then start deporting all Muslims and their immediate families if one of them is convicted of any crime against society, deport any who march in support of known terrorists or terrorist activities or known organizations that support terror, if a Muslim is convicted of a capital crime and is sentenced to 25 years, then he serves 25 years, begin the process on no negotiations with Muslim kidnappers, no prisoner exchanges, no ransoms, begin a policy of zero tolerance for anti social behaviour, begin profiling at all transportation hubs, train , bus, and air....ban all new mosque building permits...
encourage Muslim participation in neighborhood cleanup programs, the studies of British history and the history of the real world, encourage studies in the Bible, Encourage Muslim charities donating funds,food, and medical treatment for orphanages, homeless shelters, and veterans nursing homes, and animal shelters, encourage the Muslims to engage in celebrating victories over histories tyrannical rulers such as Hitler...get Muslims to recognize the holocaust was real and Muslims were involved, get Muslims to acknowledge the 70 Million Hindus and Buddists slaughtered by Muslims, get Muslims to acknowledge that for 1400 years they have been pursuing a global quest for world domination, encourage Muslims to acknowledge the Qur'an is the source for Muslim violence, encourage Muslims to discontinue making demands on your soil to make everything Muslim...
See if Muslims can become contributors to your society or if they just prefer to be conquerers...I am not a betting person but....
at August 21, 2007 6:50 AM
exsgtbrown
Regarding moslem charity. There is a live-8 concert at Wembley on the 21st October. www.24dash.com/communities/26311.htm
at August 21, 2007 7:10 AM
"They understand that it’s wrong to go out and commit suicide bombings," Mr. Hussain said. "But some got really confused when you put jihad next to it. Jihad has got a sacred context, so things that were unacceptable became acceptable."
To the extent that jihad is the killing of infidels for allah in the process of establishing allah as supreme makes the concept of jihad impossible to separate from islam. The fact that the adherent immediately kills himself in the process for allah is not confusing. Most religious moslems will argue even if the person who murders infidels while killing himself was misguided, the misguided one still will be rewarded in an after life because it was the misguided one's intention to turn everyone to allah. Moreover, the hapless others killed in the jihad exercise will be rewarded or punished as allah sees fit anyway.
Moslems turn Pascal's wager on its head. Pascall wagered that out of the choice of heaven and hell, you must logically choose heaven, as the odds are in your favor. If you choose to follow the commandments of God, you enter heaven and live in paradise, but if it turns out God doesn't exist, you lose nothing. If you choose to not believe in God, and it turns out he is real, you suffer in Hell. Moslems use Pascal's wager to justify murder by suicide. If you kill at the wrong time the wrong people, you lose nothing and gain. Killing infidels is always justified because if the intention is to fulfill allah's will, the murderer is to be rewarded either way.
Evil is evil. Infidels need their own wager and theology that comes out the infidel way no matter what. Either a world of peace and tolerance or the defeat of islam.
Posted by: David England at August 21, 2007 7:33 AM
With all this stupidity coming from the labour gov't in GB, l would think the BNP's numbers swell. all l can say your tax dollars are being wasted with the Labour Party.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at August 21, 2007 7:37 AM
"British Civics Class Asks, What Would Muhammad Do?"
We all know that if there is any possibilty that a program would work, they would have to lie to the students.
They would have to cover up for the real Mohammad. The Mohammad in these classes would have to make rational, moral decisions which are consistent with the moral values of the Christian West. The new and revised Mohammad would never tell anyone to kill another person for changing his faith, or sanction the murder of someone who poked fun at him, or ordered the cutting off of of arms and legs on opposite sides as a penality for a crime. He would never say that Women were inferior in intellegence to men, or that bestiality was permissable.
They would have to have to create a whole new Mohammad, with a whole new character and theology.
This program is going to be a colossal failure.
If British authorities are really serious about addressing the Muslim problem in their country, they should start by expelling any Muslim, along with his entire family, who displays the slightest disloyality to the Queen or British government, and then make it clear to all Muslim parents and religious leaders that they had better start teaching British values to their offspring, or those offspring will drag them all back to the hells they came from.
Posted by: rational at August 21, 2007 7:42 AM
What would Mohammed do?
Why, behead, of course.
And Ms. Ali, there isn't a moral equivalency between the "white supremacist" BNP and extremist Muslims. The BNP doesn't murder and mass-murder people of other faiths - Muslims do.
Posted by: darcy at August 21, 2007 8:44 AM
"What would Mohammad do?" is the theme of this helpless hopeless comical attempt at staying away from all the bad bits in Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira, and concentrating on all the gentle and lovely parts, assuming they can be unearthed.
Well, what would Mohammad do, a Muslim man in Bradford or Leeds or Manchester or Birmingham or London might ask himself, if he saw a cute eleven-year-old girl in his village, on a return trip to Pakistan, and her parents were willing for the right price to part with her, if he were, say, thirty-six or forty-six or sixty-six? For that matter, he might have caught sight of her not back in Pakistan but in the block next door. What would Mohammad do? What did Mohammad do, with nine-year-old Aisha? Wasn't Mohammad the Model of Conduct, uswa hasana, the Perfect Man, al-insan al-kamil? What would Mohammad do?
What would Mohammad do, a young Muslim might ask himself, if he were part of a group who had captured three British soldiers recuperating in a British hospital from war wounds suffered in Iraq? What did Mohammad do to the bound prisoners of the Banu Qurayza? What would Mohammad do?
What would Mohammad do a young Muslim in Great Britain today might ask himself, were he the head of a gang that went out from, say, Brixton, to rob houses in, say, St. John's Wood, terrorizing their inhabitants, and removing everything of value from the house, but of course those taking it were merely helping themselves, weren't they, to a kind of proleptic Jizyah, taking these things only because they belonged to Infidels, but were by right due to Muslims, just as Mohammad attacked the inoffensive farmere\s of the Khaybar Oasis, to take their property, and their women, and then to split the loot according to a formula devised by Mohammad himself. What would Mohammad do?
What would Mohammad do, a young Muslim viewer might ask himself, if he saw on British television an interview with Ayaan Hirsi Ali or Wafa Sultan or Anwar Shaikh or Ibn Warraq, and they were proceeding to say uncomplimentary things about Islam, were daring to reveal to Infidels that which Muslims knew, but that should not be told to the Unbelievers, at least in situations where the Unbelievers still had power and might do something about it. What did Mohammad think of what was done to Asma bint Marwan, or Abu Akaf, or others who got in his, Mohammad's way, that is the way of Islam?
What would Mohammad do?
Posted by: Hugh at August 21, 2007 8:46 AM
Darcy:
And Ms. Ali, there isn't a moral equivalency between the "white supremacist" BNP and extremist Muslims.
I'm afraid that American commentators on JW generally haven't got much clue about what the BNP is, or what its true views are. Look at the following comments. One comes from a high profile Islamist activist in the UK, the other from the BNP's leader. See if you can spot the difference:
A sinister group of Jews and Freemasons forced Tony Blair to invade Iraq in order to help Israel control the Middle East.
...it is equally true that assorted Zionists – particularly around President Bush - played a key role both in pushing for that invasion [ Iraq ] and in telling the lies that created a degree of public support for it. It seems that they thought that having the Yanks and Brits go in and obliterate Saddam was a good thing for Israel.
However you dress it up, the views are identical - "the Jews" are to blame for Iraq. In fact, the parallels between the two groups are legion. Besides anti-Semitism, both the Islamists and the BNP are driven by supremacist ideology, nonsensical conspiracy theories, and paranoia. The Islamists, if they gained control, would reduce non-Muslims to dhimmi status, second class citizens on every level. The BNP states that it would do the same to all non-whites. So there's no need to frame the white supremacist tag with quote marks, as unfortunately it's the truth (although the party prefers to disguise it with the term "ethno-nationalism").
Posted by: Matamoros at August 21, 2007 9:55 AM
Perhaps there should be more focus on WWJD instead of WWMD.
Let's see what Jesus (and the Bible) would say:
Don't murder.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Expose the deeds of darkness.
If a man won't work, neither let him eat.
Love your wife as your own flesh, even as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for it.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Avoid sexual immorality (that goes for men and not just women).
I think these are superior to some of things Mohammed would do.
at August 21, 2007 10:02 AM
But, Matamoros, when's the last time the BNP made a 9/11?
Posted by: darcy at August 21, 2007 10:06 AM
Matamoros--
Remember, I was the one some time ago who posted the reminder that Jihad Watch doesn't support the BNP.
I tried to word my comment carefully, but I think it still works to say that "Even if BNP members had killed dozens of people in train and bus bombings, that wouldn't tell us anything about Islam. And they haven't, while Muslims have."
That said, I hope this thread doesn't degenerate into a debate on the BNP, since that's exactly the sort of diversion Nuzhat Ali was going for.
Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor
at August 21, 2007 10:19 AM
Britain, ya aint got much time.
Even if you monitor the imams, like France.
Even if you try and introduce intelligence into the classes.
You will not defeat the book of hate, the koran, this way.
(now, exposing the koran, that's an entirely different matter)
Posted by: dgene at August 21, 2007 10:20 AM
They understand that it’s wrong to go out and commit suicide bombings," Mr. Hussain said. "But some got really confused when you put jihad next to it. Jihad has got a sacred context, so things that were unacceptable became acceptable. We had to dig down to defuse the misconception."
First rule when you're in a hole:
Stop digging
at August 21, 2007 10:21 AM
It seems we have way more information about the historical life of Mohammed than we do about the life of Jesus. We can examine the facts and then pose the question, "What DID Mohammed do?" By examining how the Prophet (PBUH) dealt with set-backs, challenges to his authority, and the trials of daily living, it will be possible to make a pretty good guess how he would react. I'm betting we won't like the answer.
Posted by: MP at August 21, 2007 10:52 AM
Marisol:
Remember, I was the one some time ago who posted the reminder that Jihad Watch doesn't support the BNP.
You did, Marisol, I remember. You were very emphatic, and I've noticed that there has been a big reduction in the party's propaganda posted in the comments since then.
I guess I'm over-touchy. But having been the target of far-Right Jew-bashers a few times in my youth, it still saddens me when people on here make common cause with them.
OK - no more from me on this.
Posted by: Matamoros at August 21, 2007 11:04 AM
Matamoros & Marisol
Without trying to make this another thread on the BNP, one more thing is definitely worth adding: aside from the fact that they haven't (to date) engaged in beheadings, there is also the fact that unlike the Jihadis, the BNP doesn't (seem to) regard all past parts of the British empire as a part of Britain that should be conquered back. For instance, the BNP does not glorify Lord Cornwallis and seek to re-conquer India or the US: if anything, they advocate an isolationist policy. While that can be sensibly debated, it's certainly not a policy that threatens Israel, Serbia, Russia or any other Infidel country (the current British policy is a threat to Serbia).
Even if each and every Brit were to support the BNP, there would be no threat to any country that was formerly under British rule: just that life for their people resident in Britain may be a lot more dangerous. That's very much unlike the Jihadis, where, despite parting with Pakistan and Bangladesh, there is still a whole bunch of Muslims both in these countries and in India itself that wish for a re-creation of the Sultanate of Delhi and the Moghul empire.
Sure, we don't live in Britain, but you will have to appreciate our dreading one over the other.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 21, 2007 11:08 AM
I wholeheartedly agree with rational's assessment above. To make islam more acceptable, it would have to be changed into something that is not islam.
I think Mr. Hussein and Mr. Watts are among those who want to reform islam into something akin to Christianiy-lite which I think occurs because they've been raised in the West under the Judeo-Christian ethos.
Brown's effort is bound for failure as, as I learned here on JW, it has no basis in actual/fundamental islam. Wishing for the difficult aspects of islam to just quietly go away ain't gonna work.
Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at August 21, 2007 11:08 AM
Alert,
America has one chance in 2008 and Tom Tancredo, in all his human limitations, has the right perspective of the dangers we face
I agree, but people who saw Tancredo at an appearance yesterday in Newark were busy denigrating his manner of speaking and his dress. These were Tancredo supporters but they think he doesn't have the right stuff to compete and wish he were more like Giuliani. Sadly, style will continue to trump substance even in the face of the direct threats made on our nation by Islamic terrorists.
Posted by: PMK at August 21, 2007 11:54 AM
Islam is not going to 'reform'. It is not going to make itself available for plastic surgery by the mysterious western physician Dr Kaffur.
No one is big enough to drag Islam, kicking and screaming into the good Doctors office for a make over, and attitude tweeking. Islam can't be reformed, but it is possible to make it back up.
Deprivation is the key. Deprive it of its false ideas of supremacy, deprive it of its false ideas of religion, deprive it of taqiyya and kitman, deprive it economically and militarily, deprive it of its false intellect, and scientific claims, deprive it of its means of hegemony. Strip Islam naked of all its false fronts, and make it see itself as in a mirror. The Islamic equivelent of 'The Portrait of Dorian Gray'. Naked, decrepid Islam is a sight to behold. Shocking sight, aint it. Enough to drive any muslim to 'Faithfreedom', and let Ali Sina and crew sooth away their confusion and hurt...
at August 21, 2007 12:05 PM
What Would Muhammad Do? - JW
Give me break. Why don't they look at OBL and read his scripts! Mo will most likely be a cross between OBL and Paki Dr. Khan who disseminated and sold N-secrets to the Islamic brotherhood including Nuke- Korea.
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy at August 21, 2007 1:50 PM
To Infidel: The B.N.P. may not be into rebuilding the British Empire, but their policy on Ireland until very recently was to close off the border with the Republic and to take a hardline unionist stance. There have been members of the B.N.P. who have been involved in Loyalist Paramilitaries. Some suggest that they are still active there http://www.blink.org.uk/print.asp?key=2841
They may have completely changed, but I seriously doubt it. Do you think that all of those nasty Loyalists and Combat 18 types who were in it ten years ago have all left by now? I would be very glad if they had, but I do not believe it.
Posted by: Aveyard at August 21, 2007 2:47 PM
To Infidel: The B.N.P. may not be into rebuilding the British Empire, but their policy on Ireland until very recently was to close off the border with the Republic and to take a hardline unionist stance. There have been members of the B.N.P. who have been involved in Loyalist Paramilitaries. Some suggest that they are still active there http://www.blink.org.uk/print.asp?key=2841
They may have completely changed, but I seriously doubt it. Do you think that all of those nasty Loyalists and Combat 18 types who were in it ten years ago have all left by now? I would be very glad if they had, but I do not believe it.
Posted by: Aveyard at August 21, 2007 2:49 PM
P.S. The B.N.P. are also rumoured to cooperate with the British People's Party, which is neo-Nazi without a shadow of a doubt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Peoples_Party_%282005%29
Posted by: Aveyard at August 21, 2007 3:01 PM
The new prime minister, Gordon Brown, said at his first news conference last month that he wanted to demonstrate the "importance we attach to nonviolence" and "the importance we attach to the dignity of each individual,"
.............................
Wow. I guess saying "Non-violence is important to us" is a bit too assertive. It's so much better to phrase everything in the passive voice.
This sort of approach makes even the misleading and vague term "war on terror" look clear and forceful in comparison.
Posted by: gravenimage at August 21, 2007 4:38 PM
"Brown's effort is bound for failure" - eve_anne_gelica
I am sorry, but I think you are being too optimistic about our situation under Brown.
This effort is not bound for failure, rather IT IS NOT INTENDED TO SUCCEED !
Brown needs Muslim support and funds to keep Labour in power, and wants to make Britain a world centre for Sharia banking (which I guess he sees as a wonderful source of tax revenues). Therefore, nothing substantial will be done, because doing something substantial to counter the Islamists would upset The Community, and doing that would interfere with his plans.
Peversely, however, I do agree with Nuzhat Ali that Muslim children should not be singled out for civics lessons. Any positive ideas the lessons may put into the minds of Muslim children will be drummed back out during the next sermon anyway, so they are just a waste of tax-payer's money. Using that money to teach all children the basics of citizenship and civil conduct would be infinitely more useful. Some of them might even come to understand what Sharia law would deprive them of.
at August 21, 2007 7:59 PM
Mohammad would kill anyone who questioned whatever he did.
Ask Asma Bint Marwan.
And all she did was write some satirical poetry about him.
Got her stabbed in the chest with a child nursing at her breast.
Moham-mad.
No pedophile prophets!
Posted by: profitsbeard at August 21, 2007 11:37 PM
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