The Caliphate is the Solution, Folks!

http://sheikyermami.com/2007/09/01/the-caliphate-is-the-solution-folks/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at September 1, 2007 3:40 PM

5:32. Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel
that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder,
or (and) to spread mischief in the land -
it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life,
it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind.
And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences,
and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly
and exceeding beyond the limits set
by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!.

http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Mischief

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at September 1, 2007 3:43 PM

Who is he trying t convince? I dont think none muslims are his target audience.

Posted by: KAOSKTRL at September 1, 2007 3:47 PM

Reminds me of a T-shirt I once had which said:

'There is a Sucker born every minute'-

Now watch how many uni-professors and liberal journo's gobble it up like chocolate pudding...!

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at September 1, 2007 4:09 PM

Mustafa Akyol is a self-described young "reformer" who also, at the same time, maintains that there is nothing about Islam to reform. And he further tells us, in his sprightly incoherent way, that Islam cam be purged of all of its probl...well, I mean, be able to better handle its "issues." For Akyol does recognize that Islam "has issues" with Infidels...if it were to jettison the Sunna, that is jettison the Hadith and the Sira, so apparently Akyol recognizes, however implicitly, that there's just a little something disturibing about what Muhammad, uswa hasana, al-insan al-kamil, said and did, something that might cause those who emulate him (and all Muslims are supposed to emulate him) to do bad things, things that might make Infidels worry.

Akyol would have us believe that more than a billion believers, that is all of the Sunnis at least, would be willing to accept "sola scriptura" -- Akyol loves to use terms taken from the history of Western Christianity and to apply them to Islam (he is not the only young Muslim "reformist" and Defender of the Faith to unwittingly exhibit "Christian envy") -- that is the Qur'an alone, without Hadith or Sira, and Akyol for some reason wishes Infidels to believe that the Qur'an itself has no dangerous-to-Infidels passages, and we should all be quite content.

I presume that the Qur'anic passage above which he interprets so ludicrously, is part of his campaign to "clean up" the Qur'an as part of his "sola scriptura" effort.

He obviously does not understand the meaning of the passage he quotes. But just to be sure, here is that passage:

"One should also note the Koranic verse which tells that 'all who have faith in God and the Last Day and act rightly” including 'those who are Jews, and the Christians' will be rewarded by God in afterlife. (2:62) In other words, the Koran does not denounce Jewish and Christians an “unbelievers,” as it is often thought..."

Robert Spencer has already demonstrated, and he might have adduced many more passages from the Qur'an and the Hadith to prove it, that Jews and Christians are called "Unbelievers." But there is another thing to point out. The passage Akyol gives requires interpretation. "All who have fiath in God and the Last Day and act rightly" may include those nominal "Jews" and "Christians" who share the faith of Islam -- for everyone is born a little Muslim, and even some of those who are called "Jews and Christians" may, if they accept the message of Islam, be described as those "who have faith in God and the Last Day and act rightly" -- that is, are essentially Muslims.

Posted by: Hugh at September 1, 2007 4:22 PM

As far as I'm concerned, the Koran says nothing.

Posted by: profitsbeard at September 1, 2007 4:26 PM

The best jihadi is a dead one.

Every day 50 are captured or killed in Iraq.

They are trying to kill our guys, all the while yelling allahu ackbar or some variation.

The koran and imam told them to do this.

(ergo drmonstratum est)

Posted by: dgene at September 1, 2007 4:32 PM

Well the often quoted 2:256 (let there be no compulsion in religion) was abrogated by more aggressive verses from chapter 9. Was this one abrogated too?

Posted by: Celsius at September 1, 2007 4:38 PM

Whether Mr. Akyol doesn't know that the Qur'an actually does call Jews and Christians unbelievers, and that mainstream Muslim exegetes interpret 2:62 as meaning only that Jews and Christians who accept Islam will be saved, or whether he just doesn't want us to know all this, I have no way of knowing.

Akyol, ROFLAMO. Reminds me of the Smith's lyrics:

"Stop me, oh, stop me
Stop me if you think that you've
Heard this one before
Stop me, oh, oh, please stop me
Stop me if you think that youve heard this one before

Posted by: j_not_a at September 1, 2007 4:51 PM

But if men like Mustafa Akyol didn't keep putting up the facade of civility, the Arab Muslim world couldn't wash away our non-Muslim cultures with as much haste and simplicity.

The Islamic Glacier is quite real. Either warm up your torches to melt it down or get ready for the New Ice Age.

Like violins so many of our leaders and educators and clergy are being played -- by the 'moderate' representatives of the 'Religion of Peace.' Isn't it amazing what terror can induce? It isn't fear that's destroying us all -- it's denial and self-loathing generated by decades of propaganda and violence coming out of the Middle East.

Toss in a few healthy Chinese and Russian spies, and well, you get a mixture for the end of Western Civilization. Rinse, stir and repeat...

Posted by: Foehammer at September 1, 2007 5:25 PM

As far as I can tell, 2:62 is entirely consistent with the venomous 9:29, in branding as Infidels those who do NOT believe in Allah and the Last Day (ie, those who do not accept the revealed truth of the Qur'an). The only difference is that 2:62 is holds out a reward of salvation for those Infidels who believe in Islam, whereas 9:29 defines dhimmi penalties for those who do not believe. It's the carrot and the stick, not a candied apple, as that flaming Akyol would have us think.

Posted by: jewdog at September 1, 2007 6:07 PM

Just to clarify:

Among the people of the Book, there are 'kaafirs' or those who cover up truth and lead people away from the truth: such as Mr. Spencer. That's exactly what Spencer does: rather than discussing Qur'anic verses in context, his aim is to mention one sentence here, other there - according to his will. This is the sign of a Kafir.

Now, other Christians and Jews, who do worship One God according to the best of their knowledge and effort, are not termed as Kafirs. They are the people of the Book, and Qur'an calls them as 'Nasaara' and 'Yahud' respectively.

And finally, every religion claims that the only way to God is through that religion. Christianity does that, Judaism does that, and Islam does that too. But of course, the Spencers of this world are hell-bent on misleading people, so they do not mention that fact in their discussions. That's the sign of a Kafir - one who covers up truth.

Posted by: ataa at September 1, 2007 6:08 PM

Christians believe in the Trinity, as revealed by Jesus Christ and Scripture (the original Bible, not the one mohammed rolled in a tent with). Islam therefore brands them polytheistic, although they believe in one God with three distinct natures.

None of twisted parsing done by islamists can compete with the truth. Islam, like other heresies, employs circular logic and was made up to satisfy the perverted longings of a psychopathic sociopath.

Christianity has no need to evangelize by force, since truth, peace, and reason have natural appeals to men. Since Islam possesses none of these attributes, it must to resort through violence to the ultimate state of control. Your 'leader' is in hell now. Leave the darkness and walk in the light.

Posted by: CapitalistGig at September 1, 2007 6:36 PM

There are Christians who do not believe in the notion of a three-part God.

Posted by: catton at September 1, 2007 7:11 PM

catton:

What kind of a Christian does not believe in the Trinity?

Christians believe that Christ is the Son of God because He told us so. He also said of God the Father, "I am in Him as He is in Me." and of the Holy Spirit, "...and I will send you another paraclete."

The words "Holy Trinity" do nor appear anywhere in the Bible, but God created us with a mind and a will and our faith is one of reason.

Posted by: CapitalistGig at September 1, 2007 7:41 PM

"Still, I had to stop and post about this, because if I had a nickel for every time I've heard this, I'd be a very rich man" --Robert.

The fact that these same apologetics arise again and again is why we need to set up the comprehensive Handbook for Infidel Debaters--so we don't have to re-argue these points every time.

2:62. “Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.”

The parenthetical insertion by Pickthall mentions one of the key points in the rebuttal, namely that "those who believe" are those who believe in Muhammad/The Messenger (24:62, 7:157-158, 4:136, 57:28, 49:15, 48:13, 9:29), not just Allah.

4:80. "Whoso obeyeth the messenger hath obeyed Allah, and whoso turneth away: We have not sent thee as a warder over them."

3:31. “Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. 3:32. Say: Obey Allah and the messenger. But if they turn away, lo! Allah loveth not the disbelievers (in His guidance).”

Verse 6:33 also states that those who denied Muhammad's "revelations" had rejected/scorned the revelations of Allah. Ibn Kathir writes in his tafsir of 2:62:

“When Allah sent Muhammad as the Last and Final Prophet and Messenger to all of the Children of Adam, mankind was required to believe in him, obey him and refrain from what he prohibited them; those who do this are true believers. The Ummah of Muhammad was called `Mu'minin' (believers), because of the depth of their faith and certainty, and because they believe in all of the previous Prophets and matters of the Unseen.”

http://www.mquran.org/index.php/content/view/6397/2/
http://www.mquran.org/index.php/content/view/6398/2/
http://www.mquran.org/index.php/content/view/6399/2/
http://www.mquran.org/index.php/content/view/6400/2/

Obviously, Jews and Christians who believe in Muhammad are more accurately described as Muslims.

A closely related point is that "believers" must believe as Muhammad believes (2:137). This means that any Jews and Christians would have to share Muhammad's rather dubious interpretations, such as that Abraham was neither Jew nor Christian, but was a Muslim (3:67). They must also believe in Muhammad's account of the Last Day, which obviously differs from the Biblical account. Indeed, the sahih hadith state that on the Last Day, Christ will "break the cross" and judge everyone by the law of the Quran.

Also the Reliance of the Traveller cites a sahih hadith:

"The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said: "By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell."" (RT, w4.3).

There is in 2:62 the phrase whoever "doeth right." Yet the Quran states many times that the worst wrong is to deny/disobey Allah's revelations (i.e., the Quran). Therefore, according to the Quran, mainstream Christians and Jews cannot be included in the category of those who doeth right. Therefore they are not accepted in 2:62.

Much of what has been said about 2:62 can be said about its duplicate, 5:69.

5:69. "Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve."

On the 5:69 passage, Maududi writes:

[5:51-69; 70-86]: “In view of the degenerate moral condition of the Jews and the Christians, the Believers have been warned not to make them their friends and confidants. Likewise they should be on their guard against the evil designs of the hypocrites, the disbelievers and the like and should rely on the true Believers alone. The people of the Book have, in their turn been exhorted to give up their enmity and adopt the right attitude, for they cannot get salvation without this.” 51 - 69
“The theme of the corruptions of the Jews and Christians has been resumed. The Christians especially have been reproved for their errors in regard to the doctrine of Tauhid. At the same time they have been preferred to the hard hearted Jews, for there are among them some who are more inclined towards the Truth.” 70 - 86

Ibn Kathir writes:

5:69-71. "There is no Salvation Except through Faith in the Qur'an"
"Allah says: O Muhammad, say,
(O People of the Scripture! You have nothing...) meaning no real religion until you adhere to and implement the Tawrah and the Injil. That is, until you believe in all the Books that you have that Allah revealed to the Prophets. These Books command following Muhammad and believing in his prophecy, all the while adhering to his Law. Before, we explained Allah's statement,
(Verily, the revelation that has come to you from your Lord makes many of them increase in rebellion and disbelief.)
(So do not grieve for the people who disbelieve), Do not be sad or taken aback by their disbelief. Allah said next,
(Surely, those who believe) referring to Muslims,
(those who are the Jews) who were entrusted with the Tawrah,
(and the Sabians. ..) a sect from the Christians and Magians who did not follow any particular religion, as Mujahid stated. As for the Christians, they are known and were entrusted with the Injil. The meaning here is that if each of these groups believed in Allah and the Hereafter, which is the Day of Judgement and Reckoning, and performed good actions, which to be so, must conform to Muhammad's Law, after Muhammad was sent to all mankind and the Jinns. If any of these groups held these beliefs, then they shall have no fear of what will come or sadness regarding what they lost, nor will grief ever affect them. We discussed a similar Ayah before in Surat Al-Baqarah [2:62].
(70. Verily, We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent Messengers to them. Whenever there came to them a Messenger with what they themselves desired not, a group of them they called liars, and others among them they killed.) (71. They thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment), so they became blind and deaf; after that Allah turned to them (with forgiveness); yet again many of them became blind and deaf. And Allah is the All-Seer of what they do.) Allah reminds that He took the covenant and pledges from the Children of Israel to hear and obey Him and His Messenger. They broke these pledges and covenants and followed their lusts and desires instead of the law, and whichever part of the law they agreed with, they took it. Otherwise, they abandoned it, if it did not conform to their desires. This is why Allah said,
(Whenever there came to them a Messenger with what they themselves desired not - a group of them they called liars, and others among them they killed. They thought there will be no Fitnah (trial or punishment) so they became blind and deaf.) thinking that they would suffer no repercussions for of the evil that they committed. Consequently, they were blinded from the truth and became deaf, incapable of hearing the truth. For these reasons they were unable to be guided by it. Allah forgave that, then,
(yet they became blind and deaf) again,
(many of them, and Allah is the All-Seer of what they do.) He has perfect knowledge of what they do and whomever among them deserves the guidance and whomever deserves misguidance."

And from Ibn Abbas:

5:69. “(Lo! those who believe) in Moses as well as in all the prophets and Scriptures and die in this state, no fear shall come to them nor will they grieve, (and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans) a Christian sect, who are milder than the other Christians, (and Christians) of Najran as well as other Christians (whosoever) of the Jews, Sabaeans or Christians (believeth in Allah and the Last Day) in resurrection after death, and if the Jews repent of Judaism, the Sabaeans of their religion and the Christians of Christianity (and doeth right) sincerely between him and his Lord (there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve) about that which they have left behind; it is also said that this means: they shall not fear when others so fear nor shall they grieve when others do; it is also said that this means: they shall not fear when death is slain nor grieve when the Fire is closed.”

Jews and Christians are called disbelievers in multiple places in the Quran [9:30-32, see 9:32, alkafiroona; 5:11-17 see 5:17 kafara; 5:72-73 kafara, kafaroo; 98:6 “kafaroo” (disbelievers) are “worst of created beings”; 9:29 and fight (q-t-l) those who believe not in Allah, the Last Day, Mohammad, and Islam].

Lastly, whereas 2:62 on its own is somewhat ambiguous, 3:85 is not:

"And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter."

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at September 1, 2007 7:45 PM

Akyol wrote: "...some Islamic revolutionaries, especially the ones who are inspired by the Iranian Revolution of 1979, used to find a political message in this verse: “Those who do wrong will come to know by what a great reverse they will be overturned!” (26:227) But in fact the verse speaks about the punishment that God will hand down to unbelievers on judgment day."

What Akyol doesn't mention is that there are other similar phrases in the Quran that are interpreted by mainstream tafsirs as referring to earthly punishment, i.e., Allah's punishment delivered through the hands of the Muslims.

43:88 (Shakir). "Consider his cry: O my Lord! surely they are a people who do not believe. 43:89. So turn away from them and say, Peace, for they shall soon come to know.”

43:89. Al-Jalalayn, tafsir. “God, exalted be He, says: Then disregard them, leave [them] be, and say, 'Peace!', [I will stay away] from you - this was [revealed] before he was commanded to fight them. For they will [soon] come to know (ya'lamūna, may also be read as [second person plural] ta'lamūna, 'you will [come to] know'), [meant] to threaten them.”

43:89. Ibn Abbas, tafsir. “(Then bear with them (O Muhammad)) it was said to him: turn away from them (and say: Peace) words of truth. (But) this is a threat (they will come to know) what will be done with them on the Day of Badr, Uhud, the Troops. Then, after this, he was commanded to fight them; it is also said that this means: but they will come to know the hunger and smoke that will befall them.’”

43:89. Ibn Kathir, tafsir. "...Say Salam (peace!) means, 'do not respond to them in the the same evil manner in which they address you; but try to soften their hearts and forgive them in word and deed.'...(But they will come to know.) This is a warning from Allah for them. His punishment, which cannot be warded off, struck them, and His religion and His word was supreme. Subsequently Jihad and striving were prescribed until people entered the religion of Allah in crowds, and Islam spread throughout the east and the west."

Likewise:

73:10. And be patient (O Muhammad SAW) with what they say, and keep away from them in a good way.
73:11. And leave Me Alone to deal with the beliers (those who deny My Verses, etc.), and those who are in possession of good things of life. And give them respite for a little while. 73:12. Verily, with Us are fetters (to bind them), and a raging Fire.

Al-Jalalayn, 73:11:
"And leave Me [to deal] with the deniers (wa'l-mukadhdhibīna is a supplement to the direct object, or [it is] an object of accompaniment; the meaning is: 'I will avail you of them', they being the doughty [leaders] of Quraysh, those enjoying affluence, and respite them a little, while - they were killed soon afterwards at Badr."

At Badr:

8:35 "And their worship at the (holy) House is naught but whistling and hand-clapping. Therefore (it is said unto them): Taste of the doom because ye disbelieve."

Posted by: Khaybar Oasis at September 1, 2007 8:16 PM

To ataa - The sign of a Mohammedan - One who covers up truth.

Or, a synonym can be used for Mohammedan - Barbarian - One who covers up truth.

Yep, that's YOU, ataa! A Mohammedan/Barbarian - One who covers up truth.

Thanks for clearing that up for us, ataa - a Mohammedan/Barbarian is "One who covers up truth." Yep, esp. since Mohammed is a FALSE "prophet," LOL!

Posted by: darcy at September 1, 2007 8:20 PM

Thank You, Jesus, for so many things, but especially for warning us against "false prophets" that come after you, in Matthew, 6 centuries before Mohammed was born!

Are you listening, ataa?

LOL, Mohammed the FALSE "prophet."!

Posted by: darcy at September 1, 2007 8:26 PM

You know what, ataa? Well here's the French word - "allah" is "MERDE."

Posted by: darcy at September 1, 2007 8:27 PM

The unambiguous contradictions in the Koran are evidence of the psychopathic and schizophrenic nature of Mohammed himself, who made up the gibberish which passes for wisdom among a billion plus people. And for ataa, I have this to say: you are a deceiver because you never mention that only Islam among the world's major religions demands that its legal system be imposed on everyone and every nation and that the Koran, unlike any other religious text, calls upon Muslims to conquer the earth, by military force if necessary.

Posted by: Wellington at September 1, 2007 8:59 PM

Commie-blograt - the Fanonite - posts evidence of the feudal background of exiled Paki kleptomaniac, Benazir Bhutto. The Bushies have been pushing for rabble "democracy" in Pakistan; now 2 ex president thieves in exile are about to advance Islamofascism in that country as did Bush idiocy all but hand Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, to the enemies of Western Civilization. Within 10 days Morocco could join the Bush surrender to the cult of his Wahabi partners in crime.

http://fanonite.org/2007/09/01/a-friend-of-feudalism/

Posted by: supercargo at September 1, 2007 9:25 PM

5:51 O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.

5:57 O Ye who believe! Choose not for guardians such of those who received the Scripture before you, and of the disbelievers, as make a jest and sport of your religion. But keep your duty to Allah if ye are true believers.

5:59 Say: O People of the Scripture! Do ye blame us for aught else than that we believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed aforetime, and because most of you are evil-livers?

9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

Posted by: pez at September 1, 2007 9:48 PM

ataa,
so how come we christians are still being murdered by muslims?
you're full of it-go play on the highway-you'll still have a chance of 72 virgins after being hit by a semi.

Posted by: victor at September 1, 2007 10:49 PM

ataaboy is at it again -- spreading lies about Robert and Christians. You're just as false a teacher as your false prophet, Mo was. False prophets give rise to those who lie too. No surprise there.

Posted by: champ at September 1, 2007 11:06 PM

It's not about 'godly' figures. It's islam as an ideology that is flawed.

The 'imams' smile and say.
"I do not condone violence. I just say the world needs to be under islamic rule."

Then smiles for the cameras as his followers; which he does not condone yet never condems; blows shit up.

To be targeted by people I've never even met, scares the shit out of me. I've enough REAL enemies, I don't need stand ins.

islam must end as nazisim did. Swift, and with a big bomb.

Posted by: CardGuard at September 1, 2007 11:42 PM

Let's just remember who exactly Mustafa Akyol is. Mr. Spencer has had various run-ins with this idiot apologist for Islam and superstition - just follow the links - and I think that he, Mr. Spencer, came off the better.

Akyol is a supporter of ID (a stupid and discredited theory, if ever there was one) and an Islamic theist of the worst kind. He is a supporter of, and probably deeply embroiled in, Bilim Arastirma Vakfi which stands accused of intimidating university professors in Turkey in a campaign to limit academic freedom as part of the creationist movement.

But, to be fair, he does argue against Islamic extremism and terrorism and does so from a Muslim point of view - and there, it seems to me, is where Mr. Spencer gets the better of him for he is a weak apologist for the anti-terror movement because he fails to comprehend, or address, one of Mr. Spencer's central points: namely that Islamic terrorism is implicit in Islamic texts (in the ways that they are currently recensioned) and beliefs (in the ways that they are currently expressed).

Whether Mr. Akyol doesn't know that the Qur'an actually does call Jews and Christians unbelievers, and that mainstream Muslim exegetes interpret 2:62 as meaning only that Jews and Christians who accept Islam will be saved, or whether he just doesn't want us to know all this... . Neither, I suggest, Mr. Spencer; it seems to me that Mustafa Akyol is simply a man who is too close to the forest to see the trees - too integrated into his own society to realise the deep contradictions in the views that he holds. He stands between the ancient superstitious world and the modern, accepting neither whilst denying neither of them. Like many of us he craves the certainty of belief but acknowledges the reality of science and logic. His embracing of a particularly silly creationist theory (Intelligent Design, or ID as it is known) is symptomatic of his desire, his need, to reconcile ancient beliefs with modern knowledge. He, like many others, cannot help himself: he craves a God that is immediate and and presently real and cannot, because of his beliefs in the ancient texts of Islam, position God anywhere else other than in an humano-centric universe of his own, and his faith's, construction (I'm sure that many therapists would have a great deal to say here but can it, guys, just take all your arguments and learning as read for the posters here are intelligent enough to see what I mean even if they don't agree with me).

Anyway, Akyol is a deceiver and a teller of untruths - perhaps, but I doubt it, unwittingly. Look at the very first paragraph of his artice at http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=82383 that Mr. Spencer links to. Akyol says - Many years ago, I came across a book, which claimed to explain “Israeli terrorism” in the light of the Hebrew Scriptures but he never, not once, not ever, never, tells his readers what the book is, not once does he cite the title or the author or the publisher or the year of publication. The book he believes that he has read at some point in his own mythical past is nothing more than a product of his own overheated imagination and his own ridiculous desire to justify himself and his world-view.

Really, Mustafa Akyol, you may quite sincerely wish to live in a peaceful world where all people and all faiths get on with one another but you, of all people, must acknowledge that such a world cannot be built on lies, obfuscation, half-truths and your kind of wishful thinking. No such book exists and no amount of wishing will make it exist. Your motives, Mustafa Akyol, may be pure, but your methods, Mustafa Akyol, reveal you for what you are and for what we have always suspected - just another duplicitous Muslim who cannot be trusted to tell the truth!

Posted by: OliverPCamford at September 2, 2007 12:58 AM

I for one am glad that we have muslims like Ataa, Akyol, and others to keep me on the right path. I think I have seen the light. If I had to make a choice as to who to believe, between Robert Spenser and ataa, I would choose RS. ataa is a taqiyya artist, from a long line of tiqiyya artists.
RS tells the truth. I have never known him to lie about anything. Why would he do that anyway when the truth is uglier than any lie he could make up?
There is no way to talk of the truth of Islam, without talking ugly. They go together like shoes and shoelaces. And even then, Robert is low on ugly and high on truth. You ataa, are way higher up the ugly tree than Robert. Don't grasp at those little branches, they will break, and you might fall.
Thank Allah for little branches.

Posted by: duh_swami at September 2, 2007 12:59 AM

duh_swami/

There are truths in religion - there are even truths in Islam.

The truth in Islam is not what those who believe in this false creed think that it is.

The truth in Islam is that of the three great religious truths, namely good, indifference and evil, Islam chose the last as is amply borne out by their so called scriptures and saying of their false prophet. The poster known as 'ataa' is a demonstration of my point - he speaks and writes evil, he lives evil and he seeks to subvert others to evil ways.

That any here answer him only supports and encourages him in his evil ways - and no Christian, for that matter no atheist (the point of indifference), should support the evil which he preaches and his attempts to suborn the innocent.

Posted by: OliverPCamford at September 2, 2007 1:26 AM

The Koran very specifically defines who is a believer:
-- “Only those are believers who believe in Allah and his messenger.” (24:62)

Obviously this excludes Jews and Christians -- unless they have accepted Mohammed as prophet.

Posted by: Montedoro at September 2, 2007 1:37 AM

OliverPCamford...I can't disagree with any of that...You make ataa sound like the Devil incarnate...maybe you are on to something...

Posted by: duh_swami at September 2, 2007 1:42 AM

After almost 3 years of arguing with people who claim to Muslims on message boards I have come to some conclusions about people like ataa.

First of all, you can never tell who any one is on the internet, message boards and blogs included, so I always keep that in mind. But the people who I do believe are Muslims, and argue in Islam's defense on message boards and in blog comments, all have the same characteristics.

They don't seem to know much about what the texts really do say, and even when they quote from them they seem to lack the total ability to take them in the context of the very common and widespread publicity that surrounds events like 9/11, Beslan, the beauty pageant and cartoon riots, the numerous attacks on Mosques, and the like. They really don't believe that one has anything to do with the other.

I think I know why.

I've been reading Jihad Watch for a couple of years now and I don't think Mr. Spencer has addressed this, or if he would even care to. He goes out of his way to avoid judging Muslims and he's probably smart to keep to what he does do so well, and that is quoting what they say and reporting what they do.

However, one of the biggest problems I see with any kind of "Muslim reform" is the aspect of Islam that prohibits Muslims from trying to interpret the text by themselves. They are simply not allowed to do that. Every single pro-Islam site I've read has admonished Muslims to not attempt to interpret the Muslim texts without the guidance of a recognized "authority". I know Mr. Spencer quotes from many of the most well known Muslim "authorities", but the simple fact is that it doesn't take much to be an "authority". The local cleric could be the only one some Muslims will listen to.

Since there is no central authority in Islam, and the Robert Spencer's of the world cannot possibly quote every single Islamic cleric in the world, most Muslims just have no way of knowing what any passage of the text means beyond what they are told it means. That's why they can quote those that clearly condone things like Beslan, and not think it does.

The use of language is the key. When you believe that "peace" means total surrender and acceptance of Islam, it's very easy to go on message boards and say "Islam is the Religion of Peace" because to you it is. Because the local cleric told you that's what "peace" means.

Every single person who claims to be a Muslim that I have had discussions with on message boards seems to have that same blind spot. They are simply unwilling, or unable, to take anything they quote and apply it to the context of the days events. They just don't see it.

It's very maddening when those same people accuse people like Robert of taking anything in the Koran out of context when they lack the total and complete ability to apply anything in the Koran in the context of terrorism.

Posted by: Jaynie59 at September 2, 2007 1:46 AM

“all who have faith in God and the Last Day and act rightly” including “those who are Jews, and the Christians” will be rewarded by God in afterlife." (2:62)

"God" in the Islamic view means Allah, not God of Jews and Christians. Those who "act rightly" means Jews and Christians who believe in "Allah" and his "messenger," hence, those who become Moslem.

As usual weasel-wording, the wily twisting of words to make Islam more palatable to us--which it is not and never will be.

Some idiot in a foregoing Comment is trying to separate Robert Spencer from the rest of us, who are on his side, by branding him as a kafir and the observant rest of us--Christians and Jews-- as "people of the book."

Thus, Robert Spencer is the only kafir on this site. As Robert Spencer is an avowed Christian, the idiot's reasoning is Islamic.

If this is some stumble-bum attempt to divide and thus conquer, it does not succeed. Trying to cozy up to "people of the book" and separate them as superior from the atheist, agnostic, buddhist, hindu, etc., is ineffective. Most of us here understand what Islam is about only too well.

The unbelievers are not the non-Moslems, but the followers of the garbled ideology cum some religious dollops devised on the Arabian peninsula by an illiterate.

These unbelievers (Moslems) follow an ideology that twisted two extant religions and extracted portions that fitted into an arabocentric world view allowing robbery, murder, rape of those who do not submit to its followers.

It is that ideology (Islam) that is inferior to the world's religions and not the other way around. They call us kafir, kufr, etc.--as if we were the benighted. When it is they who have been trapped in the quicksand of an ideology that does not allow co-existence but only victory or smoldering resentment.

There is no happiness in Islam, only exaltation or misery.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at September 2, 2007 1:57 AM

duh_swami/

The vertues of Western (Christian?) societies are tolerance, forgivness, love and freedom (to believe as one must). Included in those cardinal points must be political freedom, sexual freedom, equality of the sexes and of the races, freedom of belief and freedom of conscience.

Alone amongst all the the civilisations of the Earth we westerners acknowledge that last as the most important. We acknowledge liberty and we celebrate liberty. We, and we alone, have taken our core, our fundamental religious beliefs, and transmuted them into a system that allows for all freedoms in a regulated and systematic society. That we are still evolving the political and societal machinery that can make these core, these central, vertues workable is to our credit and we should not allow Islam to add our attempts to the debit sheet but rather we should tell these failed and primitive beliefs, such as Islam, that we do not accept their judgements of us and that we see our efforts, our impulses towards freedom, as being very much on the credit side.

Why should we accept their judgements about us? Is our spiritual treasure chest so empty that we have to listen to them? To them, by God! What do they know of freedom, of liberty, of democracy - they, whose societies grant freedom only to a limited number of wealthy, male, aristocratic, Islam believing people! Exactly what case do we have to answer!

Posted by: OliverPCamford at September 2, 2007 2:08 AM

unicorns62000/

There are no 'people of the book'. That is an Islamic fallacy - a spurious claim and an attempt to claim the evil that is Islam as belonging to the many truths of faith. There are many books that have some sense of humanity and mankind's relationship (or otherwise) with God - as there are many doors to God (do not limit God in your mind) - but the Koran is not one of them!

Recognise evil and wickedness when you see it, for Heaven's sake!

Posted by: OliverPCamford at September 2, 2007 2:23 AM

ataa..............
talk about splitting hairs. I don't suppose for one minute that yours and islam's evil mullahs are going to ask which way we believe before killing us.

Robert Spencer is not here to tell people how to believe in a god, he's here to help the world know how not to.

Even the most basic and simple person knows essentially what is good and what is bad.

islam is bad.

Posted by: marilyn at September 2, 2007 3:32 AM

Some Intel on "ataa”, it is an acronym and stands for Association of Turkish American Associations. It is the Turkish lobby arm in the United States and a front for the Turkish Government in the spread of its propaganda in the United States. Mr. Akyol (a well known Turkish nationalist) surprises even me now with his Islamist sympathies."ataa" may or may not be the same person as Akyol.

Posted by: purplemarbles at September 2, 2007 6:12 AM

In Judaism, all a non-Jew needs to do is to following the Seven Laws of Noah. A non-Jew isn't required to become a Jew or believe as a Jew in order to have a place in the World to Come. All he/she has to be is a righteous individual. And that can be done by following the Seven Noahide laws which thousands of people around the world are starting to do.

Posted by: TeachESL at September 2, 2007 9:21 AM

"...it seems to me that Mustafa Akyol is simply a man who is too close to the forest to see the trees - too integrated into his own society to realise the deep contradictions in the views that he holds."
Posted by: OliverPCamford

Well said.

Posted by: Josephine at September 2, 2007 10:00 AM

Jaynie59 -- Very interesting observations. Thank you.

Posted by: Josephine at September 2, 2007 10:06 AM

OliverPCamford...The spiritual energy of Islam runs backward. The demon is God in reverse as the ancient Romans used to say. Islam reminds me of the Indian in the movie 'Little Big Man', who did everything backward. Rode his horse backward, washed with dirt, dried off with water ect. Of course the movie character was comical, while Islams backwardness is dead serious. Islam is being forced on us by gradualism, and hegemony. To take over the US without blowing anything up, all they have to do is continue immigrating, multiplying like jackrabbits, getting the vote, and taking over. Their population is to small right now, but Ellison to Congress was a start. Gradual hegemony. At some point the public will have to put their foot in the middle of that or we will all be under Sharia law.

Posted by: duh_swami at September 2, 2007 10:27 AM

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD170307

Given Robert's title for this segment, this article applies. Did you know that "Islam forbids taking civilians hostage"?

"Kidnapping of Noncombatants is Forbidden; Captured Combatants Are Considered Prisoners of War, and Must Not Be Killed"

My favorite:
"It is Unjust for the World to Judge Islam By the Behavior Of Muslims and Not By Its Teachings"

'Abd Al-Sami' added that the Prophet Muhammad had also forbidden the killing of laborers, including "anyone who receives a wage for services not connected to fighting, like factory workers, doctors, hospital workers, etc."

(No one told Usama bin Laden that the workers in the World Trade Center weren't fighting anyone.)

Posted by: PMK at September 2, 2007 11:04 AM

PMK-

Your post is a good example of how Muslims use language. Who is a civilian? Who is innocent? What does aggression and oppression mean?

I once had a Liberal reply to a challenge I made to find one example of a prominent Muslim who condemned 9/11 with no qualifiers at all. He came up with 10 links to articles that he thought were proof that Muslim "experts" did come out and condemn 9/11. However, he ignored my "no qualifier rule". And he obviously didn't read the entire articles. He took one quote from each, but he obviously stopped reading after he found those quotes.

In nine out of the ten articles, these Muslims who "condemned" 9/11 all either said that the 9/11 terrorists were not "true" Muslims and were not following it's teachings, and/or they said that Islam forbids the actions of the 9/11 terrorists "except"... They were all full of "except", "but", and outright accusations that America had it coming.

One of the articles he linked to was very interesting, though. This man, who was some kind of Muslim scholar, was interviewed about 9/11 and the reporter asked him many questions. He did come out and condemn 9/11, but he also explained a lot of why the 9/11 terrorists got their ideas from the Islamic texts. When the reporter asked him about "aggression" and "oppression", he said that there were many forms of both and that "aggression" could be overt act of hostility or it could be "the media writing against you...".

I quoted that back to my Liberal friend and asked him he bothered to read the news. This was right after the beauty pagaent riots.

He failed to see any connection.

Posted by: Jaynie59 at September 2, 2007 12:59 PM

Jaynie59: Enjoy your posts. You've made several trenchant observations. As for your liberal friend, it seems that multiculturalism has gotten to this person big time. Multiculturalism is entirely a creation of the Left and essentially means Westerners should understand (and exculpate) virtually all behavior and thought emanating from the non-Western world while voraciously condemning the Western world for every conceivable (and imaginable) transgression. It is, in effect, a disguised form of self-loathing. It's also suicidal.

Posted by: Wellington at September 2, 2007 1:27 PM

...I tried to say Allah yesterday , but it came out as pthththththththth.....

Ban Muslim Immigration....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at September 2, 2007 1:40 PM

This is my first time to post a comment on this site. I must admit I know precious little about Islam as I have never read the Quran to any appreciable extent, but I need answers to some fundamental questions and I would appreciate assistance from any of the bloggers:
1. What does one need to do to become and to remain a moslem?
2. What does it mean to be "saved" as a moslem and how does one have assurance of salvation as a moslem? In an earlier discussion elsewhere, I was given to understand that the only way to have assurance of salvation is through death as a Jihad martyr. Could this be why fundamentalist, or "true" moslems, are so eager to blow themselves up in seemingly senseless causes?
3. How come the "committed" clerics themselves who incite others to martyrdom neither show examples by personal martyrdom nor send their own children? (I must admit I have never read nor heard of on any sucide by a cleric's son or daughter, but I could be wrong). Jesus and His apostles provided the ultimate example by dying for His cause, but Muhammad never did.
4. I understand the Quran, or the Haddiths, promise the the moslem martyr will be given a beautiful mansion in "heaven" filled with 72 virgins. What is provided for female jihadist martyrs - 72 ragingly virile young men - or does she become one of the 72 "virgins" for a later male martyr (in which case she may need to be "revirgined")?
5. I understand two of the 99 names of Allah are "The Deceiver" and "The Great Deceiver"! How are the moslems sure they have not been DECEIVED by the "revelations" of the Quran?
5. I also understand in one of the Haddiths or other writings, Muhammad is reported to have said that he was constantly in need of Allah's mercy and that he was not sure of where he would go after his death. Is this the reason that any time a moslem mentions Muhammad's name he adds a prayer "may Allah have mercy on him"? Isn't it absurd that seemingly intelligent moslems would emulate a leader in a way that has no assurance of salvation? Jesus Christ, on the other hand, said several times that He knew where He came from and where He was going afterwards and never one time did He mention that He needed the Father's mercy. He was rather fully confident of His Father's pleasure in Him; that He was going to prepare a place for His disciples and would return to take them there Himself.
6. Isn't it fully clear that the "Angel Gabriel" who brought revelations to Daniel, Zechariah and Mary couldn't be the same "Angel Gabriel" that brought revelations to Muhammad, and as such the two groups of revelations couldn't be from the same source therefore the God of the Bible couldn't be the same as Allah? If Allah is not Jehovah, the Father that Jesus Christ came to reveal, then who is He?
Thank you very much for helping clarify a willing seeker of truth.

Posted by: Touga07 at September 2, 2007 11:37 PM

Al Quran are the words of Almighty God given to Muhammad thru Gabriel. No one really understand the Quran best except Muhammad. Neither Robert Spencer nor those who interprate the Quran.

What Robert Spencer have done is to choose which interpretation suit his personal or rganisational objective best.

The following are some of the verses which mentioned about Jews and Christians in the Quran

Al-Baqara (The Cow)

2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the christians, and the Sabians [49] -all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds-shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve. [50]

2:139 Say [to the Jews and the christians]: "Do you argue with us about God? [113] But He is our Sustainer as well as your Sustainer - and unto us shall be accounted our deeds, and unto you, your deeds; and it- is unto Him alone that we devote ourselves.

2:140 "Do you claim that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants were `Jews' or `christians'?" [114] Say: "Do you know more than God does? And who could be more wicked than he who suppresses a testimony given to him by God? [115] Yet God is not unmindful of what you do.

Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)

5:69 for, verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, [86] and the christians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

Al-Hajj (The Pilgrimage)

22:17 Verily, as for those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], and those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, [18] and the christians, and the Magians, [19] [on the one hand,] and those who are bent on ascribing divinity to aught but God, [on the other,] [20] verily, God will decide between them on Resurrection Day: for, behold, God is witness unto everything.

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran)

3:52 And when jesus became aware of their refusal to acknowledge the truth, [41] he asked: "Who will be my helpers in God's cause?" The white-garbed ones [42] replied: "We shall be [thy] helpers [in the cause] of God! We believe in God: and bear thou witness that we have surrendered ourselves unto Him!

Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread)

5:46 And We caused Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of those [earlier prophets], confirming the truth of whatever there still remained [63] of the Torah; and We vouchsafed unto him the Gospel, wherein there was guidance and light, confirming the truth of whatever there still remained of the Torah, and as a guidance and admonition unto the God-conscious.

5:116 AND LO! God said: [139] O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, `Worship me and my mother as deities beside God'?" [jesus] answered: "Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! It would not have been possible for me to say what I had no right to [say]! Had I said this, Thou wouldst indeed have known it! Thou knowest all that is within myself, whereas I know not what is in Thy Self. Verily, it is Thou alone who fully knowest all the things that are beyond the reach of a created being's perception.

Al-Hadid (Iron)

57:27 And thereupon We caused [other of] Our apostles to follow in their footsteps; and [in the course of time] We caused them to be followed by jesus, the son of Mary, upon whom We bestowed the Gospel; [46] and in the hearts of those who [truly] followed him We engendered compassion and mercy. But as for monastic asceticism - [47] We did not enjoin it upon them: they invented it themselves out of a desire for God’s goodly acceptance. [48] But then, they did not [always] observe it as it ought to have been observed: [49] and so We granted their recompense unto such of them as had [truly] attained to faith, whereas many of them became iniquitous. [50]

As-Saff (The Row)

61:6 And [this happened, too,] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O children of Israel! Behold, I am an apostle of God unto you, [sent] to confirm the truth of whatever there still remains [5] of the Torah, and to give [you] the glad tiding of an apostle who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." [6] But when he [whose coming jesus had foretold] came unto them [7] with all evidence of the truth, they said: "This [alleged message of his] is [nothing but] spellbinding eloquence!" [8]

61:14 O YOU who have attained to faith! Be helpers [in the cause of God - even as jesus, the son of Mary, said unto the white-garbed ones, [14] "Who will be my helpers in God's cause?" - whereupon the white-garbed [disciples] replied, "We shall be [thy] helpers [in the cause] of God!" And so [it happened that] some of the children of Israel came to believe [in the apostleship of jesus], whereas others denied the truth. [15] But [now] We have given strength against their foes unto those who have [truly] attained to faith: [16] and they have become the ones that shall prevail.

There are two group of Christians and two group of Jews. Those Christians who believe in Jesus words and believe in Unity of Almighty God the Creator and Jesus is just a Messenger will go to heaven - Insyallah. However those Christians who follow Paul the Murderer and believe in Trinity is following Satan and will be in hell. The same goes to the Jews who believe in Moses and the 10 commandment will be in Heaven, insyaallah

No one can said whoever believe in Almighty God the Creator, the Last Day of Judgement is kufur.

The fundamental believe of unity of Almighty is the same from time of Adam until Muhammad only the shariah changes from time to time and everyone have to accept that Syariah of Muhammad is the best and practical today. No Christians or Jews are working have to practise the Syariah of Moses or Jesus except the Muslim who are working hard to practise their Syariah. We can't apply what in the Torah today neither can every Christian be as obedient as Jesus.

Muhammad have not murder or hurt any Christian in his life and neither did his caliphs. I hope some one can proof otherwise

May be those who follow blogging the Quran Robert Spencer understand the Quran better compare to those who are in Iraq or Afganistan because many of them are too poor or stay in remote area do not have proper education and understanding of Islam.

So please be fair to Islam and why base definition of Islam on actions of a few extremists?

Cheers

Posted by: janeabraham at September 3, 2007 3:08 AM

So please be fair to Islam and why base definition of Islam on actions of a few extremists?

JaneAbraham,

I'll stop judging Islam on the "actions of a few extremists" when other Muslims decide that those "extremists" are not heroes who should be protected. Where is Osama bin Laden? Where is Ayman al Zawahiri? I judge all Muslims by their actions, not by their words. Stop saying that Islam is a religion of peace. You know it's not. Stop trying to fight the world. Let us live in peace and you can have your mosques and your footbaths, though why anyone living in a city, with his feet covered all day, needs to take off his shoes and socks and clean his feet before prayer is beyond me. It's a practice of the desert, not of Islam.

Posted by: PMK at September 3, 2007 1:05 PM

Hello, Touga07.

I am sure a lot of people will be happy to answer your questions but they might not see them at the end of such a lot comments thread. Stick around and keep reading. There is a search function on this site that may be useful in finding articles about specific topics.

I am not a Muslim so I can't answer questions on what is required to become and remain a Muslim. I wonder if these Q&A websites might be easy to search:

http://islam.tc/ask-imam/index.php

http://www.sunnipath.com/

http://islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng

This site says it lists 164 Koranic verses re. jihad:

http://www.yoel.info/koranwarpassages.htm

These are websites by people who have left Islam:

http://wafasultan.org/

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

http://islam-watch.org/

http://www.exmuslim.com/

This is an article by Bat Yeor that addresses the question: Do We Worship the Same God?

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzYwMDNjZDRiMTRkODUyMTQ1ZWYwMjA4OWI3NjYwMTM

I hope these sites are useful to you.

Posted by: Josephine at September 3, 2007 1:06 PM

That's exactly what Spencer does: rather than discussing Qur'anic verses in context, his aim is to mention one sentence here, other there - according to his will. This is the sign of a Kafir. posted by ataa

Mr. Spencer goes into great detail in his explanations of qur'anic verses. Don't give us the old "context" run around; we've heard that canard too many times. Robert Spencer has absolutely no reason to invent lies or misrepresent islam. Just like his other critics, you fail to name one instance or example of his putative errors, omissions, and out of context misrepresentations. Name some specifics; give some examples. You won't because you cannot. Instead you resort to ad hominem attacks in an effort to impugn his character and repudiate his integrity and scholarship. This is the typical hit and run tactic employed by apologists and propagandists for islam and has become quite boring, so you're beating a dead horse. Muslims are the infamous masters of deceit and champions of mendacity, pride, and bravado. With those dubious talents at your disposal, surely you can improvise some new techniques for besmirching the names of those who dare to criticize or expose islam. Your credibility gap has stretched into a chasm.

You might influence some people with your odious tactics, but not serious, intelligent people who cannot (and will not) deny the dissonance and incongruity that envelop the volatile subject of islam. The empirical definition of islam is demonstrated by the actions, words, and behavior of muslims, not by apologists' contradictions, excuses, and palliative cliches that controvert reality.

The meaning of islam is plain, simple, and unambiguous. The qur'an spells it out, the sunna and sira provide the elusive "context". Muslims all over the world practice islam exactly as Mr. Spencer interprets and explains it. If millions of muslims practice an invalid version of islam, who is responsible, and when will muslims condemn this hideous perversion of islam and do something to rectify it? It doesn't matter to me what islam is "supposed" to mean, or that you and other liars, apologists, and useful idiots insist that millions of islamic fanatics somehow got it all wrong. That's not good enough!!!!! Millions, most likely tens of millions, of maniacal muslims could wreak catastrophic death and destruction, so you worry about defending islam's tarnished reputation, and we'll worry about protecting ourselves and our country from our muslim enemies. Since we don't know where or who they are, every muslim is a potential terrorist.

Posted by: Susanp at September 3, 2007 11:10 PM

lol @ topic...
What's next?

Perhaps his mentor, Julius Streicher, doing a study on "Der Erwige Jude"?

How lame...lol

Posted by: jcom972 at September 4, 2007 8:11 PM