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Imagine! They enter Islam with open mind and open heart, and somehow they get the crazy idea that the Qur'an and Muhammad are commanding them to subjugate the infidel, by violence if necessary! What a crazy notion! One would think that Muslim groups in Europe and America would be anxious to head this off, and are instituting comprehensive programs to teach against Islamic supremacism and the jihad ideology in every madrasa and mosque in the West. Aren't they? Mr. Hooper, care to comment on CAIR's efforts in this direction?
"Converts To Islam Move Up In Cells," by Craig Whitlock for the Washington Post (thanks to Isabella the Crusader):
BERLIN -- Religious converts are playing an increasingly influential role in Islamic militant networks, having transformed themselves in recent years from curiosities to key players in terrorist cells in Europe, according to counterterrorism officials and analysts.The arrests this month of two German converts to Islam -- Fritz Gelowicz and Daniel Schneider -- on suspicions that they were plotting to bomb American targets are just one example of terrorism cases in Europe in which converts to Islam have figured prominently.
In Copenhagen, a convert is among four defendants who went on trial this month for plotting to blow up political targets. In Sweden, a webmaster who changed his name from Ralf Wadman to Abu Usama el-Swede was arrested last year on suspicion of recruiting fighters on the Internet. In Britain, three converts -- including the son of a British politician -- are awaiting trial on charges of participating in last year's transatlantic airline plot."The number of converts, it seems, is definitely on the rise," said Michael Taarnby, a terrorism researcher at the Danish Institute for International Studies. "We've reached a point where I think al-Qaeda and other groups recognize the value of converts, not just from an operational viewpoint but from a cultural one as well."
Religious converts are sometimes more prone to radicalization because of their zeal to prove their newfound faith, analysts said. They are also less likely to attract police scrutiny in Europe, where investigators often rely on outdated demographic profiles in terrorism cases.
Yes, zeal is key, but new converts to Christianity, as zealous as they may be, don't seem to be blowing anything up. Now, why is that?
Posted by Robert at September 16, 2007 4:01 PM
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I'm Jewish and I had a friend who became a convert to Christianity and took it too far (as people will with any new thing) - smiling all the time, doing charity work, 'testifying to God's love', forgiving everyone right and life, praying for the souls of even the most heinous criminals and in general being annoyingly chipper.
The point I want to make is that Christian or Muslim - its easy to take your religion too far so they're both religions are really equal.
Posted by: poetcomic1
![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at September 16, 2007 4:18 PM
I'm Jewish and I had a friend who became a convert to Christianity and took it too far (as people will with any new thing) - smiling all the time, doing charity work, 'testifying to God's love', forgiving everyone right and life, praying for the souls of even the most heinous criminals and in general being annoyingly chipper.
The point I want to make is that Christian or Muslim - its easy to take your religion too far so aren't both religions really equal? A Christian convert can be just as intense.
Posted by: poetcomic1
at September 16, 2007 4:20 PM
A brainwashing cult in everything but name!
Posted by: Hermit at September 16, 2007 4:31 PM
The point I want to make is that Christian or Muslim - its easy to take your religion too far so they're both religions are really equal.
Huh? I think your anecdotal story just proved the opposite of that contention.
Posted by: jihadwatcher at September 16, 2007 4:31 PM
"Religious converts are sometimes more prone to radicalization because of their zeal to prove their newfound faith, analysts said."
-- from the article above
A previous posting may serve as comment on that passage:
"Hypothetical:
You are acquainted with two pilots who work for commercial airlines -- in fact, they take turns flying the small plane, which holds about 20 passengers, on the commuter route from New York to Martha's Vineyard and Nantucket during the summer. In such a small plane, there is a chance to talk to the pilots, to engage in pleasantries and banter with them, before and after the flight. As it happens, both are easy-going fellows; you've been flying with them -- one on the route out, one on the route back, -- for several years. On cloudless mornings, on inenubilated evenings, you fly to and fro, aller et retour, without incident.
But you learned from the concerned and gossipy stewardess last summer, that bad things have happened to both of them. For Robert, or"Bob", those bad things involve his children: his oldest son was arrested for selling drugs in high school. His daughter left home to "try to get into the movie business" and has not been heard from since. For "Mo" (you never knew his real name was Mohammad) those bad things involve his girlfriend, who kept threatening to leave him and finally did so, and also his financial situation. At one point, giddy with expectation and having followed a hot tip provided, in fact, by one of his passengers, Mo took his life savings and put it into a fund specializing in investments in East Asian stocks, and now when he wakes up every morning with the rising sun, he hears again how the Nikkei Index has been sinking fast, and the Hang Seng is also feeling poorly. Indeed, the stewardess heard a while ago that he had to sell his condominium.
Curiously, both men seem to have found the same consolation for their woes in a renewed, or re-found, faith -- the faiths of their fathers. Bob, never much of a churchgoer, is now a regular on Sunday. He has even joined a choir. He tithes, with pleasure, and sends money to missionaries in Africa. He is seldom without his Bible, and his conversation is now peppered with Biblical phrases, some of which sound strange to you. "Oh, he's a Daniel come to judgment" he says to you about someone, and you think you are in the presence of a nineteenth-century a preacher man. You wonder if Bob listens to those holy-roller stations -- as you used to call them when, staying in a motel in a southern town, you turned on the radio or the television. Bob tells you that he is a re-born Christian, and he cannot tell you what a relief it has been, how happy he feels, how he wishes everyone could find peace in the Lord. Sometimes he jokes as he walks from the terminal to the plane about his own new-found faith, and you are amused that he can both have that faith, and joke about it, too.
"Mo" on the other hand, does not speak to you the way he used to -- in fact, he does not talk to, the passengers at all. He does not look directly at the stewardess, whom he has known for years. He has grown a beard. He seems very intense, concentrating on his work, and his facial expressions hint at thoughts that are far, far away from you and everyone else. Yet he continues to do his job as competently as Bob does. The stewardess whispers to you that Mo does a lot of reading now, whenever he can, from a pocket Qur'an he carries around. Bob, of course, carries a Bible in the same way, though he does not read it all the time, in every free moment. Why, even while waiting in the tiny terminal, with its potted geraniums and single brisk employee, who always wears a white short-sleeved shirt with a retractable pen in the shirt-pocket, he can be seen reading from his Qur'an -- the stewardess knows because she asked him what that book, in the strange language, was, and he told her it was the Holy Qur'an. She says that Mo goes to a small room in the back, and prays facing toward Mecca, and that on a few occasions he did so right on the floor of the terminal proper, seemingly oblivious to everyone, and even, once, on the tarmac, she said -- something she never saw him do before.
Both pilots, it seems clear to you, have found in their new or renewed fervor, some kind of answer to their problems, and to whatever psychic disarray they felt.
Do you feel the same now as you used to, about getting into the plane with Mo as with Bob? Are there any differences in the level of calm, or of qualms? Are those differences justified, or are you just being silly?
Time allotted: as long as you want. But make sure you think before answering, and fill only one side of the blue book, and try to tell the truth."
[Posted by: Hugh at June 30, 2004 9:14 AM]
at September 16, 2007 4:37 PM
@Poetcomic1:
I can deal with the people who "take their religion too far" by being "annoyingly chipper", cheerful and forgiving. It's the people who take it too far by blowing things up that worry me. Can both Christian and Muslim zealots intense? Sure. It's a question of how they express their intensity that distinguishes one from the other. What it comes down to in the end is, would you rather be annoyed, or blown to pieces?
Posted by: HoosierGal at September 16, 2007 4:39 PM
"poetcomic" was merely making a joke -- and making a point.
Posted by: Hugh at September 16, 2007 4:39 PM
Sorry, Poetcomic1.
Posted by: HoosierGal at September 16, 2007 4:41 PM
"The point I want to make is that Christian or Muslim - its easy to take your religion too far so they're both religions are really equal."
Posted by: poetcomic1 September 16, 2007 4:18 PM
Point being, Christians take the religion so far toward one end of the spectrum, Muslims to the opposite end.
Reality check: I Can't recall any exploding Christians lately.
Posted by: sounder at September 16, 2007 4:48 PM
Yes I was joking. I've noticed a surge in the NYC stand up comedy scene of making fun of Islam's more bizarre manifestations and irrationalities. Humor and irony are human and humane weapons against a literal minded stupid pompous foe.
Posted by: poetcomic1 at September 16, 2007 4:53 PM
"Humor and irony are human and humane weapons against a literal minded stupid pompous foe".
I totally agree poetcomic1.
If only the Germans had a sense of humour and laughed and made fun and jokes about Hitler, instead of giving the moron the time of day, perhaps Europe and the Jewry would have been spared from this genocidal monster.
Similarly, if instead of falling at his feet, the Arabs would have guffawed at Mr Mo's utterings, perhaps the whole humanity would have been spared from that genocidal maniac.
Posted by: Hermit at September 16, 2007 5:07 PM
With Islam so much in the news today, often referenced in a violent, anti-Western context, it's hardly surprising that many converts are radicals or social misfits who need an outlet for their anger.
It's interesting to consider conversions historically. I know that many converts were simply ordinary people living in Islamic conquered lands as dhimmi, who were paying the jizya, were stigmatized, and finally threw in the towel and converted.
Then there are those who must have been swept up in the victories of the Islamic armies, with all the booty, slaves and wives, who were especially attracted to Islam's to-the-victor-goes-the-spoils power trip.
As a supremacist ideology, Islam makes big inroads among those with low social status: prisoners, American blacks, low-caste Hindus etc.
Who's a convert and why? A lot depends on the times. Right now, I'd be very wary.
at September 16, 2007 5:11 PM
"Bob wishes everyone could find PEACE in the Lord"
Its an overwhelming rush of what the Bible describes as "the Peace that passes all understanding". The Bible says "The Kingdom of God is Righteousness, Peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost".
Fly with Mo?--Nooooo! It would be the boat or the backstroke for me.------Unless the Lord, my Guide Inside, would specifically say to fly with him.
Posted by: guide inside at September 16, 2007 5:22 PM
The "converts"-in-question do more than "misunderstand islam...they misunderstand REALITY to begin with for them to convert to a death cult that is ANYTHING but a "religion of peace".
at September 16, 2007 5:27 PM
Hermit, Do you remember a comedian/pianist named Victor Borge, he came to America to avoid being arrested and most likely killed by the Gestapo when the Germans occupied Denmark. Their loss was our gain. Germans knew the power of satire, a lot of comedians were imprisoned or else they fled.
Posted by: Pelayo at September 16, 2007 5:29 PM
try looking at what they publish on the central mosque.com website it is a pack of lies and very anti-Western so with any wonder thatnew convertsend up joining Islamic Jihad networks and as for a Christian convert I have not noticed any of them going boom like a lot a Muslim converts seem to do
Posted by: mowasaperv at September 16, 2007 5:31 PM
Big difference. When a person becomes a Christian, one knows you are not going to be threatened with death or have your head chopped off.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at September 16, 2007 5:53 PM
Islamic converts are just like the young people who were gathered up by Chuck Manson. Weak, alienated, lonely, psychologically troubled, and eager to please their father figure.
Posted by: Pelayo at September 16, 2007 5:53 PM
Well if MI5 & HLS have converts inside ,this is not going to work out to well for the Islam.
Posted by: KAOSKTRL at September 16, 2007 6:02 PM
"Reality check: I Can't recall any exploding Christians lately."
check this out : http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/christian-terrorism.html
http://americanentropy.blogspot.com/2005/12/christian-terrorism.html
http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2006/09/domestic_terror.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_and_the_Rwandan_Genocide
http://faculty.vassar.edu/tilongma/Church&Genocide.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_509589.html
Posted by: sublimer at September 16, 2007 6:22 PM
“Germans knew the power of satire, a lot of comedians were imprisoned or else they fled. “
Posted by: Pelayo
Perhaps, these are why the Mohammedan went on a riotous spree when they heard of the first MoToons and threaten the same with any others.
IMO, Let them riot, they only burn down their own shops and destroy their own property. If they do it here, we explain to them the first amendment. If they still don’t understand, we explain the second, fourth, and fifth amendments.
"Above all else, the Devil cannot stand to be mocked."
-C. S. Lewis-
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
-Benjamin Franklin-
at September 16, 2007 6:24 PM
I think this is good news, inasmuch as it knocks away a few blocks of the edifice of misunderstanding of the causes of jihad. The cause can't be poverty (at worst, these converts subsist in Western Europe on unemployment insurance); nor a lack of freedom & democracy (probably too much freedom in W.E.; so much for bush's theory); nor the presence of infidel troops in your native, muslim land.
Posted by: sheik yer booty at September 16, 2007 6:26 PM
@ Sublimer,
I went through ever one of you links. This is what I found.
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/christian_terrorism_in_northeast_india.htm
(Christians blamed for communist activities. I read the ATTF’s charter.)
All Tripura Tiger Force (ATTF): A Socialist/Communist separatist group in the Tripura state in India.
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/06/christian-terrorism.html
http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2006/09/domestic_terror.html
(These two postings both talk about David McMenemy, while the first also adds on Paul Hill. Both actions condemned by Christians except for three “Christian” groups in Milwaukee)
On July 29, 1994, a religious fundamentalist named Paul Hill attacked a Pensacola, Florida family planning center,
On September 11, 2006, a Christian fundamentalist named David McMenemy crashed his gasoline-soaked car into a women's health clinic in Davenport
http://americanentropy.blogspot.com/2005/12/christian-terrorism.html
(A single aggravated battery counts as terrorism?)
“Kansas University religious studies professor Paul Mirecki reported he was beaten by two men about 6:40 a.m. today on a roadside in rural Douglas County. ….Douglas County Sheriff’s Officials are classifying the case as an aggravated battery.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_and_the_Rwandan_Genocide
http://faculty.vassar.edu/tilongma/Church&Genocide.html
(And these two postings try to pin the Rwanda Genocide on Christians for inactivity against it. Where was the UN?)
“A Human Rights Watch report notes that the leaders of the Church refrained from condemning the genocide”.
“According to a report by a World Council of Churches team that visited Rwanda in August 1994, "In every conversation we had with the government and church people alike, the point was brought home to us that the church itself stands tainted, not by passive indifference, but by errors of commission as well."”
“In Rwanda, however, unlike the genocide of Armenians in Turkey, Jews in Europe in World War II, and Muslims in Bosnia, and to the genocidal violence between Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs in India and Christians and various Muslim groups in Lebanon, religion did not serve as an ascriptive identifier to demarcate a social group as an essential "other."”
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/guests/s_509589.html
(This one reaches back to the Spanish invasion of Central and South America. Dang and I thought Pope John Paul II apologized and condemned this.)
Hmmm… after 9,000 Mohammedan terrorist acts, that’s 4 a day! This is the best you can come up with? Really Sublimer, I’m disappointed at you. Don’t you know the people at this web site know what Taqqiya is?
at September 16, 2007 7:27 PM
Sublimer can you provide the new testament scripture that sanctifies murder and mayhem?
Posted by: KAOSKTRL at September 16, 2007 7:38 PM
I'm Jewish and I had a friend who became a convert to Christianity and took it too far (as people will with any new thing) - smiling all the time, doing charity work, 'testifying to God's love', forgiving everyone right and life, praying for the souls of even the most heinous criminals and in general being annoyingly chipper.
The point I want to make is that Christian or Muslim - its easy to take your religion too far so aren't both religions really equal? A Christian convert can be just as intense.
poetcomic1,
Wouldn't it be nice if Muslims found Jesus as your friend did? Sounds like he has the spirit of the true God in him.
Posted by: rational at September 16, 2007 7:45 PM
subslimer is back.. no flagburnings to attend to, rageboy?!
Posted by: Allahfanculo at September 16, 2007 8:18 PM
Biting sarcasm, it’s too bad that civilizationally we are at the point where many of us don’t recognize it. The ridiculous is in need of explanation, we find ourselves arguing against the idiotic or absurd. In the not too distant past poetcomic1’s statement would bring a chuckle from all as it did to me. Now, because the insane and moronic have been elevated to the informed or educated it is met with outrage.
To be sure there are and have been some Christian wacko’s but you don’t see martyr posters of them on Sunday they are not heroes of the faith. Now if we examine the anti- religious we will find that most if not all of them are virulently against religion and all who are religious to the point of smearing the majority in hopes of having them wiped out. The anti religious are one half step below the islamists, all they need do is convert to islam to become super duper islamists themselves, you know them new recruits. Who is the greater danger, the bigger monster, Bob, Mo, or those who would portray (smear) Bob as the same as Mo?
21; And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22; For false Christ’s and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23; But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Mark 13 KJV.
at September 16, 2007 8:19 PM
"Yes, zeal is key, but new converts to Christianity, as zealous as they may be, don't seem to be blowing anything up. Now, why is that?"....from headline.
Why is that? Well, Christians don't have the example of a psychopath/sociopath to follow after. Jesus was a true example of peace, whereas Muhammad was not. Muhammad was evil, and evil always accuses first what it practices.
Posted by: champ at September 16, 2007 8:39 PM
Rational & Poetcomic1, I have met a few Born Agains in my life, but not a single one of them has threatened to rmove my head with a dull knife if failed to see things their way. One person did have the gaul to make a judgement on my soul, but I did leave with my head atttached to my neck, and no bullet holes.
Posted by: Pelayo at September 16, 2007 8:40 PM
rational --
Who would you rather go to dinner with:
1) a radical Muslim
2) a radical Christian
Come on! They are not one in the same thing and you know it. Besides, I see more in common with radical Islam and liberals than with conservative Christians because they share the same unrealistic, childish view of the world driven by an infantile-like egotism.
Posted by: champ at September 16, 2007 8:48 PM
Thanks Pelayo!! Right on!
Yeah, the worst thing that could happen with a radical Christian is for him to hit you over the head with his Bible. Other than that, your head will remain in tact.
Posted by: champ at September 16, 2007 8:50 PM
"poetcomic1,
Wouldn't it be nice if Muslims found Jesus as your friend did? Sounds like he has the spirit of the true God in him. "
The problem is that Islam is a complete way of life, Christianity isn't (thank God). Man is deiform and his personhood is sacred in both Judaism and Christianity. Sophisticated liberals think of God as some kind of vague cloud of kindly gas - the REALLY sophisticated idea of God is as PERSON. (I read Vladimir Lossky)
The feeling of 'I', of personhood each of us feels is the God-feeling in us.
Islam degrades and destroys this unique feeling of personhood. Islam (as shaped to the whims of Mohammed if such a person even existed and it's a moot point) indulges the lowest passions of men: preaching violence, war and as a reward, The Great Whorehouse in the Sky.
I argue that 'giving your life to Jesus' is a Protestant perversion of unchristian ideas. So is bibliolatry. God doesn't want you to 'be Jesus' He wants you to be funky, unique wonderful you. Of course some Christian's disagree with me but I'm not afraid to get on a plane with them!
Posted by: poetcomic1 at September 16, 2007 8:59 PM
Converts to virtually any ideology tend to be enthusiastic-----true believers and all that (hey, something has to fill the void for those who can't relish life for its own sake, not fully explained and taken blithely unadorned). With very few exceptions, such conversions are harmless to society and the world at large. THE exception above all others is conversion to Islam, whereby one finds the worst of numerous combinations-----enthusiasm, novelty, totalitarian inclinations, admiration of a warped founder, violence as an option to enforce one's beliefs, eschatological preoccupation, "sacred" writings "confirming" alignment with the supposed controlling force in the universe, "us versus them" thinking on a colossal scale, blah, blah, blah. Well, such conversions to the monstrosity called "Islam" function as yet more evidence of the Armageddon-like battle mankind is in to save itself from itself. Oh, finally, may I just say that Western converts to Islam are total losers and parasites, devoid of any appreciation of the realization that the many freedoms they enjoy they would not if the Islamic world had had its way all along.
Posted by: Wellington at September 16, 2007 9:01 PM
For Christians only (ok, non Christians can read it too)....
as a Christian I would like to go on record by exhorting other Christians to examine themselves to see if you are in the faith; because if you call yourself a Christian and you are going around burning down abortion clinics, etc, then you are NOT a true Christian. Period.
Just because someone calls themselves a Christian does not mean that they are. Read the book of Revelation if you don't believe me -- a book where Jesus confronts this issue when he addresses the 7 churches. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of God.
Sermon over.....
Posted by: champ at September 16, 2007 9:04 PM
Here is one message that I see from the New Testament: Jesus and his followers promise death, fire, misery, and damnation to unbelievers. This punishment is from God, not from any human. I do not see where any person is given authority to punish anybody for any religious transgression.
We all know what Allah and Mo said.
Don't try to tell me what happened 800 years ago to others who were accused of heresy. That was then, this is now; besides, it's intellectual dishonesty.
Posted by: Pelayo at September 16, 2007 9:16 PM
Perhaps only those with extremely violent tendencies convert to Islam. That would explain this statistic
Posted by: bajirao at September 16, 2007 9:38 PM
There seems to be 2 types of westerners who convert to Islam from my limited experience with them.
First kind: Those who are attracted to Sufism, most of these folks started out as either agnostics or some sort new ager. Gullible and has bought into the romantized and sanitized version of Islam via certain western promoters of Islam.
Second kind: Those that just become Muslims. These folks are usually alienated from society and family due to emotional and/or behaviorial problems. Johnny Jihad(the kid who was captured in Afghanistan) was a classic example of this sort.
These kind of convert is ideal for jihadization given his alienation from society.
at September 16, 2007 9:51 PM
Is Sublimer another persona of the "Reverend" Jim Sutter?
at September 16, 2007 9:52 PM
champ: I am not a Christian. I am not religious at all. But I think you do your fellow Christians a great disservice by suggesting that there are many of them out there who burn down abortion clinics. With the exception of Eric Rudolph, I know of no Christian who has burned down or manifested felonious violence or intent against any abortion clinic. And Rudolph himself has equivocated on his Christianity, although I don't want to affirm or deny here what he has actually averred because he is obviously a very confused human being (and thankfully in custody). Please try to understand that while many Christians may not live their faith or are even hypocrites, this is far different from what millions of Muslims worldwide do-------openly espouse violence in the name of their religion.
I find it deeply ironic that I am exculpating your fellow Christians, although not a Christian myself, and you are erroneously condemning some of your compatriots. Muslims are the problem across the world, not Christians. Could I but wave a magic wand and tomorrow every Mohammedan would wake up a Christian, I would do so in an instant.
Posted by: Wellington at September 16, 2007 10:20 PM
The imitatio Christi (imitation of Christ) differs remarkably from the imitatio Mohammedi (imitation of Mohammed, he whom - we are reliably informed - is held up to Muslims as 'the perfect man', the 'walking Qur'an').
The imitatio Christi produces, to name just a few of the many examples that spring to mind, peopel such as: Sir Thomas More; St Francis of Assisi; Mother Teresa; Charles de Foucauld; Gladys Aylward; Corrie and Betsie ten Boom and their father; Martin Luther King; William Wilberforce; William Penn; Brother Roger of Taize; Blessed Maximilian Kolbe. I am sure that my brothers and sisters of the Eastern churches could name as many again - people of gentleness, humility, patience, incandescent charity and cool courage, people whom Solzhenitsyn in the 'gulag archipelago' describes as 'a silent procession carrying invisible candles'.
Whereas the imitatio Mohammedi produces, with terrifying ease and rapidity...cold-blooded assassins or hitmen, and their handlers. People like Mohammed Atta, Osama bin Laden, the participants in the recent Doctors' Plot, the German jihadists, and so on ad nauseam.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at September 16, 2007 10:46 PM
Annoyingly chipper or annoyingly murderous---The contrast is striking, wouldnt you all agree?
Both new converts have a zeal. The new born Christian, or "born again" Christian is actually compared to a new born baby by the Bible. They are encouraged to desire the "sincere milk" of the Word of God to grow thereby. As they mature they graduate to steak dinners. Thats when you are ready for the "strong meat" the bible refurs too. That maturing process is as long or as short as the new convert chooses. All maturity and wisdom comes from the study of Gods word. Most mature Christians look at a new believer and chuckle at the rememberance of their own "youth" and zeal and brazen witnessing without much knowledge. At that stage they are vunerable to cults and false teachings and con men posing as Christians. Some one year believers are more mature than some who have warmed a pew for 30 years.
If the Bible encouraged the new born to murder, then you would say there is no difference. Our Book doesnt say that, our leaders dont say that, our one billion or so brothers and sisters dont do that.
WE LOVE----THEY MURDER
A striking contrast, indeed!
(The biggest deception in the world today is the belief that God and Allah are the same)
at September 16, 2007 10:57 PM
This trend toward new converts being in the forefront of Jihad is a very good sign. This means that dyed in the wool Muslims are more frequently more sane than the newcomers, who form the insane fringe of the rest of the population. There are certainly Muslims leaving Islam now in droves, so much that in Europe they are organizing openly. As thinking people flow out, forever, and idiots flow in (often temporarily), and also thugs, which spectacularly awful results, Islam looks less and less like a worthwhile endeavor. This can be a virtuous cycle. All we need is for a critical mass of former Muslims to shrug it off without serious consequences and we'll see change - it seems the truth about Islam is bubbling up all over the place.
Posted by: Quijybo at September 16, 2007 11:03 PM
Australia: Griffith University A Hotbed Of Wahabism?
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/09/17/australia-griffith-university-a-hotbed-of-wahabism/
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at September 16, 2007 11:32 PM
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Ummm 9496 moslem terrorist acts since 9-11
at September 16, 2007 11:46 PM
I posted this article yesterday (or the day before) but we need to read it and post it everywhere.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/rdreher/stories/DN-dreher_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.4235f88.html
This "explanatory memorandum," as it's titled, outlines the "strategic goal" for the North American operation of the extremist Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan). Here's the key paragraph:
The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.
Posted by: interestinconundrum at September 17, 2007 12:29 AM
Wellington --
Thanks for writing and for your input. I was not trying to throw true fellow Christians under the bus, so I apologize for coming across that way.
My last post was not designed to undermine other Christians -- NOT AT ALL -- but to undermine the poster, sublimer, and the links he posted by stating that I don't consider these acts he mentioned to be done by true Christians; and I also wanted to expose the "faker" Christian too, because believe it or not, they are out there. Sorry if that bursts your bubble, but not everyone who claims to be a Christian truly is.
Besides, Muslims are always being criticized for not confronting fellow Muslims for hate crimes -- so why shouldn't a Christian be criticized for the same thing? But no, I'm being criticized for doing what I thought was the right thing based upon my own and others standard of fair play. Your criticism of me reveals a double standard, so all I was trying to do was be fair to what is expected of Muslims.
Give me some credit for speaking out against crimes done in the name of God -- that's all I was trying to do. And a simple Google search will reveal that my information is correct. Sadly, there are stories circulating out there about radical Christians and firebombing abortion clinics. Do a little research and you will make the same discovery.
Anyway, I take your point, and I certainly don't want to be viewed as a condemner of Christians.
Take care.
at September 17, 2007 1:06 AM
"This means that dyed in the wool Muslims are more frequently more sane than the newcomers, who form the insane fringe of the rest of the population. There are certainly Muslims leaving Islam now in droves, so much that in Europe they are organizing openly."
-- from a posting above
You mean not "dyed in the wool" but those who ahve been born into Islam, as compared to that self-selected group of the psychically marginal who so often are to be found among Western converts to Islam. And the statement that Muslims are "leaving Islam now in droves" is not true. There is no evidence that they are leaving "in droves." The very best and most advanced people are, but that does not amount to "droves" or even one "drove." And they are "organizing openly" in very small numbers, and only in a few places.
That does not mean that a rivulet cannot become a torrent -- but it will take a bit more work. The rivers of Muslim migration, of Muslims who remain Muslims and do not apostasize, now are debouching rapidly into a sea of disaster.
Posted by: Hugh at September 17, 2007 1:14 AM
3:114 “O ye who have believed! form not intimacies among others than yourselves. They will not fail to corrupt you."
Now where IS that Muslim buddy of mine?
at September 17, 2007 1:41 AM
I posted this on Dhimmiwatch too but I want to make sure that you all take note of this Ray of Light coming out of Poland:
First the GOOD NEWS:
Poland is producing a Film about the Defense of Vienna. They have raised US $30 m and are looking for more.. anyone with money care to help them out?
I'll be first in line to buy a ticket and the DVD..
Now the ugly: [has nothing to do with the above]
http://halali.ha.ohost.de/fschein.jpg
Yep, a fully covered burka-babe's driver's license.. check it out!
at September 17, 2007 2:18 AM
champ: Thanks for the reply. I know you meant to be balanced but as far as I know, with the sole exception of Rudolph, no one has been arrested for serious violence against an abortion clinic. There have been a handful of attempted murders of abortion providers over the years, but they are indeed few and far between. Arson attacks against abortion clinics are also few in number. Harassing phone calls and picketing seem to constitute the overwhelming bulk of activity here. Anyway, the vast majority of Christians have unambiguously condemned such violence (contrast this with so-called "moderate" Muslims worldwide with their silence or conditionalized refutation of violence). Much more important is that when Christians have ever used violence in the name of their faith, they stand in violation of it. When Muslims resort to force to subjugate the earth in the name of their creed, they are fulfilling a major dictate of their religion. Couldn't be a bigger difference. In any case, violence by Christians worldwide in the name of Jesus wouldn't even make up 1% (actually it would be a very tiny fraction of 1%) of that perpetrated by Muslims.
Posted by: Wellington at September 17, 2007 6:37 AM
FRANCE WARNS OF WAR WITH IRAN NOT INVOLVING FRANCE
THE rest of the world could soon be embroiled in a war with Iran, the French foreign minister has warned.
The last thing Iran needs is a lot of Frenchmen running about, said KouchnerBernard Kouchner said that in the event of conflict over Iran's nuclear programme, the United States and Britain would enjoy the full moral support of the French people.
"War is a terrible thing, which is why we prefer to avoid it," said Kouchner. "But for other countries it is often unavoidable and when that happens we will be there to wish them the very best of luck."
Kouchner said the easing of tensions with North Korea proved that diplomacy can work as long as it goes hand-in-hand with the threat of a war (not involving France). Any war involving France would not be seen as a credible threat due to the weakening of any coalition through the use of French Troops.
He added: "We urged the Americans to be tough with North Korea and assured them that if the situation did escalate we would be on the end of the phone, day or night. If necessary we would come over with a delicious pie."
Kouchner provoked a row last month when he accused the Iraqi government of being in disarray and insisted the country was still far too dangerous for French troops.
Meanwhile Iran has denied developing nuclear weapons, insisting it was only enriching uranium as part of its Duke of Edinburgh Award.
at September 17, 2007 7:02 AM
poetcomic1
"I've noticed a surge in the NYC stand up comedy scene of making fun of Islam's more bizarre manifestations and irrationalities."
I am glad to hear some New York comedians are beginning to have a shot at Islam as like you I think ridicule is the best defence we have.
But in the UK, say, 10 years ago one of our best stand-up comics, Jasper Carrot (semi-retired now) did a routine were he had a conversation with a Christian. The dialogue was the Christian asked “Why did he always laugh at Christians why didn't he have a go at the Muslims? The simple answer he gave himself was, “Because they will kill me!” It was incredible that in an auditorium with 5-6000 people who had been laughing up uproariously until then you could have heard a pin drop. I have never seen a professional performer in such a hole and I forget how he stopped digging. I would say there were very few Muslims in the audience but suddenly the silence was deafening.
That is how frightened people are in the UK even before 9/11
BTW The show was issued on video and the routine lasted a few minutes in a 2-hour show but if anyone can get a clip it would be worth putting on the net as an example of the panic and fear of Islam today.
at September 17, 2007 7:20 AM
"Yes, zeal is key, but new converts to Christianity, as zealous as they may be, don't seem to be blowing anything up. Now, why is that?"
Simple: Islam makes good people bad whereas other religions make bad people good.
According to Anwar Shaikh, Mohammed based his religion on the twin pillars of sex and violence. Hence his brothel of a paradise.
In this scenario, it is baffling as to how Islam is appealing to its women followers.
Are they trying to prove Mohammed's words "Women lack common sense" ?
Posted by: proud-hindu at September 17, 2007 7:43 AM
Islam makes good people bad whereas other religions make bad people good.
Excellent, proud hindu, how true!
http://sheikyermami.com/2007/09/17/terror-must-be-normal-part-of-life-al-qaeda/
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at September 17, 2007 8:22 AM
Islam makes good people bad whereas other religions make bad people good.
So true, so true.
I think the best example would be Shoebat, the former Pali terrorist.
Can anyone name a former islamic terrorist who found peace and remained a Muslim?
Posted by: Elric66 at September 17, 2007 8:28 AM
...converts to Islam have no life....after converting to Islam, no life is guarranteed....
Ban Muslim Immigration
at September 17, 2007 8:30 AM
When I was in my early twenties, I spent a few years as a "born again" Christian. I was like the person mentioned in poetcomic's post, LOL. Above all, I was sincere in my beliefs and desired to live as Christ commanded.
Real life tended to get in the way of that desire, however. For example, despite how fired-up they got on Sundays (this was a Pentecostal church), most of my fellow congregants did not share my new-found zeal. Some of the older folks made their yearly pilgrimage to the PTL theme park and felt they'd fulfilled their holiness duties. Eventually, as is the case with most, I became disillusioned and my faith and expectations became more moderate.
I'm trying to imagine how someone might earnestly convert to Islam and gradually get sucked into following its true core of hatred of, and violence towards, the rest of the world.
Am I naive in believing it would never have happened to me? I don't think so, for two reasons.
First, while in my fervent religious phase, I still questioned things. Non-religious folks will find that hard to believe; perhaps I should say that, within my religious mania, behind my rose-Jesus-coloured-glasses, I didn't completely abandon my intellect. I questioned certain teachings of my church and raised these issues with my pastor (and he agreed with me). I didn't succumb to considerable peer pressure to behave in certain (emotional) ways during church services and I didn't accept the idea that women should not wear slacks to church. I pointed out to friends the seeming hypocrisy of television evangelists (this was before the scandals).
Second, I read the Bible, cover to cover, several times, and I based my beliefs on that book. When members of my church, and even our pastor, started promoting a certain religious practice in prayer, I searched the Bible for a basis for this practice and couldn't find one. I spoke to my pastor, who also searched the Bible and he later mentioned in a couple of sermons that this practice was unbiblical and therefore should not be encouraged.
If anyone in my church or circle of friends had suggested violence against non-believers, I would not have been sucked in because there is nothing in the Bible to condone or promote such behaviour. For Christians, the ultimate example is found in Jesus Christ, and there is nothing in his recorded words or deeds that would justify or excuse such actions.
On the other hand, if I had been an impressionable "born again" Muslim, and had searched the Koran and other Islamic holy texts for justification for violence and murder against non-believers, I would have found it in spades. Since I am, by nature, an empathetic, non-violent person, I would have had to abandon ship at that point. Since I was also raised as a Christian, and grounded in Christian principles of love, forgiveness and mercy, I believe that these values would have led me away from Islam once its true face was revealed. (I know that these values are not unique to Christians.)
I think that those converts who do not run for the hills when they fully understand what Allah commanded them to do must be fundamentally different in their psychological make-up than converts to other religions.
Posted by: Josephine at September 17, 2007 8:50 AM
Josephine
You nailed it with this.
I think that those converts who do not run for the hills when they fully understand what Allah commanded them to do must be fundamentally different in their psychological make-up than converts to other religions.
This is especially true for women converts. I fear the converts more than the ones born into Islam. One reason why recruiting in the prisons are so successful.
at September 17, 2007 9:23 AM
Elric66 -- Thank you.
Posted by: Josephine at September 17, 2007 9:28 AM
NP Josephine :-)
Posted by: Elric66 at September 17, 2007 9:56 AM
"In this scenario, it is baffling as to how Islam is appealing to its women followers."
Proud Hindu,
I know, I know! Every time this comes up, I want to thump my head against my desk, repeatedly! I'm with you. I can't imagine why any woman would voluntarily, without any outside pressures or considerations, convert to Islam.
There's nothing in Islam, for women. I can only conclude that some of these women have such low self-esteem, and are so lonely for other women to talk to, and just to be with, that they grab onto Islam (which guarantees there would be other women to talk to, since the sexes are kept apart from one another).
Each time the question is raised: "Where are the feminists?" I want to implode, because I have no answers. But maybe I do, now. Could it be that many feminists have abandoned that particular cause as a hopeless one?
I don't mean to say that there aren't any female victims of Islam,(mostly those who were born into it). But for the woman who would choose it, with an idea of what she's getting into--It's hard to work up much sympathy. In fact, to me such an action amounts to what is known as a "suicidal gesture". A figurative way of throwing away one's life, without having to die.
Posted by: Abscedere at September 17, 2007 10:23 AM
Hugh: your story or fable of the two pilots is both instructive and dead on.
Hear wisdom and live.
Posted by: dgene at September 17, 2007 12:14 PM
Wellington --
I completely agree with you; that there is NO comparison between the small number of violent acts committed by so called "Christians", and the countless thousands of violent acts done by Muslims.
Again, I was really directing my post towards sublimer who had provided links about Christian violence. No, he didn't provide a link on abortion clinics, and to be perfectly honest with you, I was only using that as an extreme example because other posters have mentioned abortion clinics in the past. And perhaps sublimer was the one who raised abortion clinics as an example before -- I don't know.
I wasn't trying to establish that there has been a rash of violence to abortion clincs BY Christians throughout the world -- in fact -- remove abortion clinic and replace it with one of the links that sublimer was pushing, if that eases your mind. Obviously that's what I should have done, because you are really stuck on my mentioning abortion clinics, when I was only using that as an EXTREME example of what has been used against Christians in the past.
Anyway, I could not agree with you more; that Muslim violence is in an evil league all it's own. There is no comparison between the two.
Posted by: champ at September 17, 2007 12:35 PM
The direction upon aknowledgement of the psychosis is in two opposite directions. Christian conversion arises out of contrition, a realization that one's life is screwed up and that oneself is the cause for the torment of soul.
Thus, surrender to Jesus becomes a soothing warmth of peace and the realization of love.
The Mohammeden goes in the opposite direction. He knows his life is screwed up but he blames a host of factors (not himself) that caused this. Thus he surrenders himself to the hate and revenge of Allah striking out at those who he assumes caused the torment in his soul. If Charles Manson was allowed to go on he, too, would eventually join the cult of Allah.
Posted by: Briars at September 17, 2007 1:41 PM
The tendancy for Islamic converts to be more
zealous has been going on for a long time. V.S.
Naipaul in his two great books "Among the Believers"
and "Beyond Belief" notes that non-Arab "convert"
countries like Iran, Pakistan, and Malaysia strive
to prove their muslim credentials by tending to
extremism.
This is not a recent phenomena.
at September 18, 2007 10:08 PM
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