The Jews are born to be victims...

Muhammedans should not be allowed to convert to Judaism.

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at October 11, 2007 8:16 AM

Hmm, I wonder if this explains why Olmert acts the way he does?

Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at October 11, 2007 8:27 AM

FRONT PAGE OF THE TIMES UK

MUSLIM LEADERS WORLDWIDE ASK POPE TO CAPITULATE TO ISLAM

Pope told 'survival of world' at stake if Muslims and Christians do not make peace

The "survival of the world" is at stake if Muslims and Christians do not make peace with each other, leaders of the Muslim world will warn the Pope and other Christian leaders today.

In an unprecedented open letter signed by 138 leading scholars from every sect of Islam, the Muslims plead with Christian leaders "to come together with us on the common essentials of our two religions" and spell out the similarities between passages of the Bible and the Koran.

The scholars state: "As Muslims, we say to Christians that we are not against them and that Islam is not against them - so long as they do not wage war against Muslims on account of their religion, oppress them and drive them out of their homes."

The Muslims call instead for the emphasis to be on the shared characteristics of world's two largest faiths.

The letter, addressed to Pope Benedict XVI, to the Orthodox Church's Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew 1 and all the other Orthodox Patriarchs and to the Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams and the leaders of all other Protestant churches worldwide, will be rolled out around the world this morning in a series of press conferences beginning in Jordan. It is supported by the Bishop of London, the Right Rev Richard Chartres.

It is expected to be followed by a joint conference between Muslim and Christian world leaders at on "neutral" ground, such as at a university in America.

"Finding common ground between Muslims and Christians is not simply a matter for polite ecumenical dialogue between selected religious leaders," the Muslim scholars say, noting that Christians and Muslims make up over a third and a fifth of humanity respectively.

"Together they make up more than 55 per cent of the population, making the relationship between these two religious communities the most important factor in contributing to meaningful peace around the world. If Muslims and Christians are not at peace, the world cannot be at peace."

The Muslims even quote passages verbatim from the Bible, extremely rare in a publication of this kind and at this level and an indication of their resolve to bring the two faiths together and end the present tensions between them.

The letter continues: "With the terrible weaponry of the modern world; with Muslims and Christians intertwined everywhere as never before, no side can unilaterally win a conflict between more than half of the world's inhabitants. Thus our common future is at stake. The very survival of the world itself is perhaps at stake."

It says: "And to those who nevertheless relish conflict and destruction for their own sake or reckon that ultimately they stand to gain through them, we say that our very eternal souls are all also at stake if we fail to sincerely make every effort to make peace and come together in harmony."

Concluding with a quote from the Koran, the scholars say: "So let our differences not cause hatred and strife between us. Let us vie with each other only in righteousness and good works."

The letter is being sent out today by the Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought in Amman, Jordan.

Among those launching the letter in the UK will be two world leading figures in interfaith dialogue Professor David Ford and Aref Ali Nayed.

Professor David Ford is Regius Professor of Divinity, and Fellow of Selwyn College, University of Cambridge. Professor Ford is also the Founding Director of the Cambridge Inter-Faith Programme and led this year’s international inter-faith conference at Lancaster House in June on ‘Islam and Muslims in the World Today’.

Aref Ali Nayed is a leading theologian and senior adviser to the Cambridge Inter-Faith Programme. He is formerly Professor at the Pontifical Institute for Arabic and Islamic Studies in Rome, and the International Institute for Islamic Thought and Civilization in Malaysia.

Signatories include Shaykh Sevki Omarbasic, Grand Mufti of Croatia, Dr Abdul Hamid Othman, adviser to the Prime Minister of Malaysia and Dr Ali Ozak, head of the endowment for Islamic scientific studies in Istanbul, Turkey. They also include Shaykh Dr Nuh Ali Salman Al-Qudah, Grand Mufti of Jordan and Shaykh Dr Ikrima Said Sabri, former Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Imam of the Al-Aqsa Mosque.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2636117.ece

Posted by: Churchill1939 at October 11, 2007 8:29 AM

" Following his brother's death, Ben David apparently returned to Islam."

....did his brother foolishly try to attack some Jewish soldiers?....

"Ben David's two living brothers are in Israeli prisons for security reasons."

....Islam must be a family tradition.....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at October 11, 2007 9:02 AM

AND CHRISTIANS HIT BACK !!

Comment: Muslim plea well-meaning but flawedRuth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent of The Times
The intentions of the 138 leading Islamic scholars who today wrote to Christian leaders urging reconciliation, are praiseworthy - who among us does not want world peace? - but I fear that the theological analysis underpinning their intervention might not light many candles in the Christian world.

Unfortunately, the road to misunderstanding is paved with good intentions.

Among the first to respond to the letter today was the Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali, a leading Anglican expert on Islam. Dr Nazir-Ali, who was born in Pakistan, told me he welcomed the fact that so many Muslim leaders want to enter a dialogue with Christians.

"But what I would stress is that dialogue between partners must be conducted in the integrity of each faith," he said. "One partner cannot dictate the terms on which dialogue must be conducted. This document seems to be on the verge of doing that.'

Related Links
Muslims warn Pope 'survival of world' at stake
For Dr Nazir-Ali, the document appears to be calling for dialogue on the basis of Muslim belief in the unity of God. He said: "If that were the case, we would all be Muslim. I would say, we need mutual witness and learning as well as witness to faith. I am quite happy for Muslims to witness to me. But it is not a one-way street."

The bishop criticises parts of the document, which goes in great detail into Koranic passages which emphasise the unity of God. "One thing the document implies is that Christians have compromised their monotheism. It does this by implication, with all the business of saying we must agree that God is only none and not associated with partners, that we must not take others for Lord. It refers to various verses in the Koran which accuse Christians of taking Jesus and others as their Lord besides Allah."

The verse the entire letter is based on, Dr Nazir-Ali says, is Koran 3:64. "Say, 'O followers of the scripture, let us come to a logical agreement between us and you: that we shall not worship except GOD; that we never set up any idols besides Him, nor set up any human beings as lords beside GOD.' If they turn away, say, 'Bear witness that we are submitters'."

He said: 'This verse says that if we are going to talk it must be on the basis that you [the Christians] are no longer associating others with God. What I would say to that is that Christians uphold belief in one God vigorously but our understanding of the oneness of God is not the Muslim understanding.

"We believe in God as source from whom everything is brought into being. Jesus is God's word and presence for us but is also human."

In fact, the document does emphasise the humanity of Jesus, in line with Koranic teaching. Dr Nazir-Ali said: "That is fine, but he is also God's presence for us. We believe in one God but how we believe in one God is not the same as how Muslims believe in one God. There is an implicit assumption here that what Muslims believe is normative and everyone else has to fall into line."

Dr Nazir-Ali is right to welcome the scholars' call for dialogue on the issue of peace, although he points out that there are many other important areas of dialogue that this letter does not mention. My fear is that this letter betrays a fundamental lack of understanding about Christianity.

The Archbishop of Canterbury has responded. He says: 'The letter’s understanding of the unity of God provides an opportunity for Christians and Muslims to explore together their distinctive understandings and the ways in which these mould and shape our lives.'

I imagine Pope Benedict XVI will be more forthright if he ever gets around to replying to this letter, which warns him that the very "survival of the world" is at stake if Muslims and Christians cannot learn to live together. We can only hope that he doesn't quote any more 14th century Byzantine emperors, as he did in his ill-starred Regensburg address last year.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2638044.ece

Posted by: Churchill1939 at October 11, 2007 9:08 AM

There's a button at the bottom of the Times article which allows you to comment - only one problem - it says "submit". I shall never submit.

Posted by: Churchill1939 at October 11, 2007 9:15 AM

" Blood is thicker than water "...but not as thick as a Palestinian skull. They are hopeless..hopeless.

Posted by: pismopal at October 11, 2007 9:26 AM

Man I would change my name too if I was born "Hassam Swatme"

Posted by: payingattention at October 11, 2007 9:55 AM

I sent an email asking Mr. Spencer this question -and this article brings up the question again in my mind.

Is it possible for a Muslim to "fake convert" from Islam to another religion (Christianity, Judaism etc) for the express purpose of jihad? In other words, convert, pretend to support the "infidels" in order to get in a position where one might inflict the most damage?

Posted by: Bess at October 11, 2007 10:19 AM

"In an unprecedented open letter signed by 138 leading scholars from every sect of Islam, the Muslims plead with Christian leaders "to come together with us on the common essentials of our two religions" and spell out the similarities between passages of the Bible and the Koran."

I really wish Christian leaders had the guts to reply to this letter honestly, telling the signers that there are no common essentials between our two religions, and that similarities between passages of the Bible and the Koran in no way makes Islam an outgrowth of Judaism and Christianity, that we do not recognize any God called Allah as the God of the bible, nor a person called Mohammad as a Prophet of God.

They should be told that we are perfectly happy and willing to live in peace with Muslims, but not at the expense of recognizing Islam as a part of our religious tradition.

That is what they're really after, recognition if Islam as the spiritual heir of Judaism and Christianity.

Posted by: rational at October 11, 2007 10:36 AM

Bess:

There's a reason conversions are not encouraged in Judaism and even a suspicion of ulterior motives precludes the possibility. This is an example. Unfortunately many here in Israel thinking themselves well-meaning are trying to make conversions easier. This "Palestinian" convert was likely one such that got "converted".

His punishment ought be severe enough to makes others think twice. Perhaps the mohel could cut a little deeper....

Posted by: MosheC at October 11, 2007 10:39 AM

Bess:

There's a reason conversions are not encouraged in Judaism and even a suspicion of ulterior motives precludes the possibility. This is an example. Unfortunately many here in Israel thinking themselves well-meaning are trying to make conversions easier. This "Palestinian" convert was likely one such that got "converted".

His punishment ought be severe enough to makes others think twice. Perhaps the mohel could cut a little deeper....

Posted by: MosheC at October 11, 2007 10:40 AM

Scum is as scum does.

One keeps saying the evil is in the koran.

(but is it in the genes too ?)

(can taquyya go this deep ?)

(gives new expression to the words muslim mole)

(saw first episode of US TV muslim infiltration series where islam mole operated out of a synagogue! - heaven help us - reality following fiction)

Posted by: dgene at October 11, 2007 12:00 PM

Bess:
It's only a guess but I assume such a "conversion" would be approved by Islam, given their maxim that "war is deceit". They forgive Muslims living as infidels (drinking, etc.) if that is what it takes to blend into the enemy community and accomplish their aim.

I have my own question: it seems he converted more than twenty years ago, given that the youngest child is in the IDF. Would Islam claim the children of this marriage as Muslims?

Posted by: PMK at October 11, 2007 12:04 PM

I doubt that Hussam Sawatmeh's conversion to Judaism was "fake", or a ruse. What it turned out to be, though, was no more than skin deep. Despite marrying and having four children, and a presumably decent life in Haifa, for surely over twenty years (since his youngest is old enough to serve in the IDF), Islam simply never completely lost its hold.

There are no details about his brother's death, but since he died while urging his brother to supply him with nitric acid, I think it is unlikely that the guy died of cancer, or in a car accident, or falling off a ladder while painting his house.

exsgtbrown wrote:

"Ben David's two living brothers are in Israeli prisons for security reasons."

If this is true, then at least three other members of Sawatmeh's immediate family were involved in Jihad activities. I doubt they approved of his choices--his new religion, his marriage, his new home in Haifa.

Eventually, it seems Islam won out, even though it is such an obvious threat to his neighbors, his wife, and his own children.

It is odd that the Israeli court decided to continue to refer to Sawatmeh as "David"--perhaps that is still his legal name, or perhaps that is how they identified him before all the facts of the case came to light. In any case, I very much doubt that he still thinks of himself as "Ben David".

Also, it is odd that they indicate that he returned to Islam *after* his brother's death, since he was planning on supplying him with nitric acid *before* he died. Even if he had not formally "reverted" back to Islam at this time, it is obvious that he was thinking and acting as a Muslim Jihadist.

Posted by: gravenimage at October 11, 2007 5:03 PM

Age old cry of the militant without a clue...
masquerading an aberration as somehow a norm.
old as dirt, and 6 feet under
lol

Posted by: jcom972 at October 11, 2007 5:18 PM

Very interesting dicussion ....

I haven't fully decided if I think his conversion is a ruse - although I am certainly leaning that way - 20 years is a long time - however, I wonder how long the US has had sleeper cells here just waiting for the right time - 1 year? 2 years? 10? 20? More?

The bit about wanting to supply the acid to his brother before his death - how long was the plot in the works? 1 year 2 years 5? That amount of time being a sincere member of Judaism is cut down.

I guess, with all the ways jihadists are employing to eliminate us and take over, I'm starting to look at these Muslim to Christianity/Judaism "converts" with a large dose of skepticism. My original person that planted this idea in my brain is Barack Obama.

Beyond that - I wish to thank the posters who shared their thoughts on this issue. I really enjoy this forum.

Posted by: Bess at October 11, 2007 5:34 PM

To Bess -

as regards apostates.

Those who persist in apostasy within Muslim countries, in the teeth of imprisonment, torture, and death threats, are probably genuine. I do not doubt the faith of those two Turks, converts to Christ, who were tortured to death - for had they renounced their new faith and pronounced the shahada, doubtless the killers would have released them.

Those who apostasise in non-Muslim countries - who come forward as converts to Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, nonreligion, you name it - need to be thoroughly examined.

In Singapore people who convert TO Islam are registered and observed.

Perhaps, in the West, for safety's sake, declared apostates OUT of Islam should be registered, submit to a thorough background check, and be required to present themselves regularly to the authorities for interviews and a progress report (say, the police, or the CIA/ FBI/M15/ASIO). Like being a prisoner on parole. If they were deemed to be genuine, they could expect in return a certain level of protection against attacks from their former co-religionists.

Those who really HAD converted to, say, Christianity or Judaism, would surely have no qualms about demonstrating their sincerity by submitting to precautions of this sort - for they would be only too well aware of the reality of the non-Muslims' fears.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 13, 2007 5:06 AM