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More background here on why the Musharraf regime is fighting for its life. The madrassas -- all too many of them -- "were preaching jihad before September 11, and they are still preaching jihad."
And they don't mean an interior spiritual struggle, either. "Osama is a Muslim, and whatever he is doing is in the interest of Islam," says Muhammad Allahyar, who clearly must be some kind of Islamophobe.
"Reforms fail at many madrassas," by Willis Witter in the Washington Times (thanks to all who sent this in):
...Just a tiny fraction of the madrassas — estimated by some to number nearly 30,000 — have complied with rules requiring registration with the government, an accounting of private donations and an expanded syllabus that adds traditional subjects such as math and science to core religious classes.The Jamia Naeemia madrassa in Lahore, which was visited by The Washington Times last month when the prospect of emergency rule seemed out of the question, stands out as an exception.
"There are two kinds of madrassas, those who changed their courses after September 11, and those who did not," said Sarfraz Naeemi, the school"s headmaster.
"There"s no jihad, there"s no terrorism here," Mr. Naeemi said of the school for 1,350 boys, a white-columned three-story complex that surrounds an open courtyard of smooth paved stone.
Unlike seven years ago, its graduates earn accredited bachelor"s and master"s degrees in Arabic and Islamic studies, in contrast to many madrassas where students become well-grounded in anti-Western Taliban theology but are unable to read or write.
But even if the students at Jamia Naeemia are well-educated, one can question whether they are any less militant, anti-Western or anti-American in their outlook.
[...]
Of schools that refuse to register and follow government guidelines, Mr. Naeemi said, "They were preaching jihad before September 11, and they are still preaching jihad."
Those guidelines were announced by Gen. Musharraf in a Jan. 12, 2002, speech in which he proclaimed a new "jihad against backwardness and illiteracy" — an effort that drew much praise in Pakistan and the West.
His plan required all madrassas to stop accepting money from non-Pakistani sources such as wealthy Saudis who adhere to a militant form of Islam that helped inspire and fund the Taliban in past years. It also included a requirement to add four core subjects: math, science, Pakistan studies and English.
"The children in these madrassas need to be brought into the mainstream of life," Gen. Musharraf said a month later at the White House, with President Bush at his side calling the reforms "visionary."
[...]
Gen. Musharraf again pledged a crackdown on madrassas after the July 2005 suicide attacks in London"s transit system, in which 52 persons and four bombers died. One of the four bombers, a 22-year-old Briton of Pakistani descent, had studied religion at a madrassa in Pakistan.
Gen. Musharraf subsequently said he had expelled more than 1,000 foreign students and promised to refocus on the reforms that he had announced more than three years earlier.
[...]
Among the harshest critics of the madrassas is opposition leader Benazir Bhutto, who often accuses the Islamic seminaries of "brainwashing our children" and of producing "mindless robots" of intolerance.
Given the recent turmoil in Pakistan, including a suicide attack on Mrs. Bhutto"s motorcade last month that killed at least 140 supporters, madrassas and the broader goal of education reform are likely to remain on the back burner.
When Gen. Musharraf appeared on state-run television Saturday night to explain his emergency declaration, madrassas were not mentioned once.
In a report issued more than a month before the latest outbreak of violence in July, the International Crisis Group, a Brussels-based think tank, said the madrassa-reform effort was in "shambles."
"Plans are announced with much fanfare and then abandoned," the report said. "In any case, the introduction of secular courses would only be of slight value unless there were also deep changes in the religious curriculum to end the promotion of violent sectarianism and jihad."
At the Jamia Naeemia madrassa, Muhammad Allahyar, 22, expects to complete his bachelor"s degree sometime next year. He said that he once dreamed of studying in the West, but that his ambitions have changed and now he wants to remain in the Islamic world.
"I want to serve my religion. I want to preach Islam. By the grace of God, it will happen over time," he said.
When an American visitor posed a question about bin Laden, he felt compelled to defend the terrorist mastermind.
"Osama is a Muslim, and whatever he is doing is in the interest of Islam."
Posted by Robert at November 6, 2007 3:03 PM
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Pakistan is done. I see no way out for them.
Posted by: RoobartSbunsar![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at November 6, 2007 3:10 PM
"Osama is a Muslim, and whatever he is doing is in the interest of Islam."
This is why fewer and fewer people believe in moderate Islam.
At least those not in power that is.
Posted by: ISLAMSFORLOSERS at November 6, 2007 3:13 PM
When an American visitor posed a question about bin Laden, he felt compelled to defend the terrorist mastermind.
"Osama is a part of the cult, and whatever he is doing is in the interest of the mohammedan cult."
Posted by: Ynkedoodl2 at November 6, 2007 3:13 PM
How can you reform Islam? Honestly? To reform Islam would destroy it and how many Muslims are willing to destroy Islam? And I am talking about ideologically.
Posted by: Elric66 at November 6, 2007 3:29 PM
"There"s no jihad, there"s no terrorism here,"
This school will be the only one featured on any report from MSM detailing how Pakistan is changing. Anyone who brings up the madrassas will be challenged with this quote.
accredited bachelor"s and master"s degrees in Arabic and Islamic studies
And what is required to earn these degrees? Will they study the history of Arab peoples before Islam? I doubt it.
Islamic Studies? So now we'll have masters in the hadiths. Wow!
Pakistan studies
Meaning what, exactly? The history of Pakistan, all six decades of it?
"I want to serve my religion. I want to preach Islam. By the grace of God, it will happen over time," he said.
Sounds like he's really open to other traditions. He doesn't want to serve people. He can preach Islam today.
Posted by: PMK at November 6, 2007 3:41 PM
lol @ topic
"fail"?????
When the hell were they even TRIED???
Posted by: jcom972 at November 6, 2007 3:48 PM
The Taliban were the creation of three external forces, which came together. Pakistani intelligence, the ISI, the CIA, the Americans, and thirdly, Saudi intelligence. Now these were young men, recruited from the refugee camps and in particular from the religious training schools, the madrasses in Pakistan. The Taliban were an artificially created force, but like many of these things they then as it were "slipped the leash" - it's a case of the Sorcerer's apprentice.
Posted by: Swissy at November 6, 2007 3:48 PM
I said this a long time ago - I see that imams are closer to military officers rather than being comparable to a priest, preacher, or other religious type of leader.
But that goes along with my idea that islam is more of a political system that only uses religion as a front. Sometimes I will add that it uses religion as a front and god as a weapon. But, either way - imams, in my point of view, are comparable to officers in an army.
Posted by: R_not at November 6, 2007 4:00 PM
The West keeps thinking it can somehow sweep back the tide of Islam, and Bright Young Muslim Things talk about "reforming Islam." It's all nonsense. The West can, however, build a dam that will keep the flood of Islam from our Infidel lands, and collapse the structures of the Muslim ones, as the water rises. It doesn't matter what happens in Pakistan as long as Pakistan's major weaponry is somehow held in check. It doesn't matter what happens in Iran as long as Iran does not acquire nuclear weapons. Eventually, out of the nightmarish situations in those nightmarish lands, at first a few, and then more, will be able to make the connection between the political, economic, social, intellectual, and moral failures of Muslim societies and states, and Islam itself. That will take a long while. Meanwhile, the fewer Muslims who are permitted into the West, the more constraints on the practice of Islam and the support that Saudi billions gives those Muslims now settled deep within the Lands of the Infidels, the smaller the transfer of wealth, the result both of the unavoidable need, but a need that can be steadily reduced, to pay for oil and gas, and of that further, quite unnecessary transfer of wealth, the more than one billions that have gone to Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, the "Palestinians" and that has bought the Infidel world exactly nothing, but only allowed those countries and those peoples to further wallow in their anti-Infidel hatred and their sloth. Let them, instead of receiving Infidel aid, be forced to ask the Muslim and Arab pil states, the recipients of ten trillion dollars since 1973 alone, to share with fellow members of the Umma.
Posted by: Hugh at November 6, 2007 4:17 PM
'Reforming' a madrassa? Snicker - this reminds me of an episode in the TV serial 'Commish' where a top cop is asked to determine the real psychics from the fake ones.
Memo to the Jamia Shahida madrassa - drop surah 9 from the syllabus, and only teach surah 109. Yep, that should do it.
Posted by: Infidel Pride at November 6, 2007 4:33 PM
And I suppose none of these madrasses have internet access, or a television, and even were they to have these outlets to the world, the students imams don't have the time or the (students don't have) permission to read anything from the West.
R_not, we should communicate with these thirty thousand Imams with some frank discussion, like we own the Moon. You know, that crescent and star thing Islamics are so fond of, and so many other things should be brought to the imams attention which further trumps the accomplishments of Western man over any example an Islamic could give. The future, better way is to reach these thirty thousand imams with words, not targeting each one with a team of SF's.
Something has to be set up to reach these people in Pakistan, otherwise, someday, we may have to slaughter them.
To this day, no media outlets are set up? No ideological strategy from George or Condi targeting the Islamic populations, at a grassroot level, and bypassing their perverted leaders?
"Hey kid, wanna ride on a space shuttle?"
"Hey, wanna better world than the one those jackass imams are telling you about?"
The West could win the next generation of Islamic hearts and minds if we wanted to. The problem is the West has no ideological warfront going. It hasn't to this day articulated a The West is the Best message for the Islamic to consider, so this administration is then able to project US and a constructive message over to them. No, our Laura sends the message condoning Islamic thought by wearing a headscarf, instead of choosing to refuse to do so, sending the message of not condoning Islamic thoughts towards women.
We really should try constructive words to their masses. With words anyone with half a brain could persuade another rational person that the West is superior, second to none, and is the Best for the future.
at November 6, 2007 4:37 PM
Robert or Hugh:
Will you have a post soon about this new documentary "Farewell Israel"? It seems to be right up your alley and has gotten some good reviews so far.
Interesting. How far will people go? What will it take for a majority to understand? It saddens me that the answer may be a nuclear weapon ...
Palamas
Posted by: Palamas at November 6, 2007 4:48 PM
I agree, Pakistan is done.
In order to get order there would have to be either civil war or war with India. Declaring war on another country would put the Pakistani citizens back in place.
I find it repulsive that Pres Bush would condemn Pakistan for protecting itself from Islamic extremism, while Chavez in Venezula is using the same laws to put down democrasy. Can we use the 'It's all about the oil' phrase?
So, which is the problem....reform? Maddrassas? or Islam?
Islam is the common denominator obstructing reform and radiculizing Maddrassas.
Are we ever going to see a politician in America that is willing to lose his job for standing up against Islam. Which is more important to our politicians: Job or Country?
Posted by: alaskan1000 at November 6, 2007 4:50 PM
Re: More background here on why the Musharraf regime is fighting for its life. The madrassas -- all too many of them -- "were preaching jihad before September 11, and they are still preaching jihad."
The other day Musharraf said he does not want his country to "comite national suicide". My immediate thought was that the Hindu descendants there comitted national suicide some centuries ago when the Arabs commenced their war of extermination there which resulted in the actual extermination and cultural extermination of a good portion of the Indian population there. The same is true in Sudan, where people with obvious Negro African ancestry think they are Are-a-fat looking Arabs, and who exterminate the people and the culture of other African Negro peoples in the name of this Arab-racist-Imperialist-exploitation system that causes non-Arabs to internalize the Arab master's beliefs and bow to the gas station.
The question for the future is: will other Kuffirs pakistan-up their indigenous cultures and bow to the gas station? I think the communications revolution and the permissions to deception that are in Islam will undo the belief-system. One day in the future Islam will be seen as bizarre as Nazism or the "Hokko Ichiu" beliefs of Imperial Japan. These belief-systems are the wave of the past. Meanwhile, we must deal with their "Allah Snakbar"! version of "Heils", "Hokko ichiu! Banzai!" and stay the course in containing this madness.
Posted by: Frank at November 6, 2007 5:00 PM
Pennies dropping ?????
Posted by: apostate_islam at November 6, 2007 5:25 PM
When we see an urbane Englishman in RAF uniform sitting on the edge of a desk saying, "the muslims have the notion, the childish notion, that they can go around bombing everybody else, but no one is going to drop bombs on them. Well they have sowed the wind, now they will reap the whirlwind."
We will no they're time is up.
If we've got the guts for it anymore, maybe we'll just allow ourselves to be swamped.
Joy
Posted by: Ian at November 6, 2007 5:45 PM
Islamic studies is probably something like western humanities, but without the freedom of thought.
Posted by: sceptico at November 6, 2007 6:02 PM
I find it repulsive that Pres Bush would condemn Pakistan for protecting itself from Islamic extremism, while Chavez in Venezula is using the same laws to put down democrasy.
Posted by: Alaskan1000
I think you're a bit mixed up on this. Bush condemned Musharraf because he declared martial law, not because of the terrorists, but because of the upcoming election....he's doing everything he can to stay in power. His opponent wants to get rid of the madrassas and if he were serious about terrorism, he would have permitted us to go into Waziristan to kill Bin Laden and Zawahiri. Something stinks about this whole fiasco and I don't trust Musharraf. The only reason he is making some effort to help us with terrorists is because we gave him an ultimatum after 9/11, you help or we bomb you back to the stone age. We should have bombed them back to the stone age and would have killed Bin Laden and his whole crew of merry thugs by now.
Posted by: Bonniea at November 6, 2007 6:26 PM
When we see an urbane Englishman in RAF uniform..."
-- from a posting above
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iJaOvPIFKA
Posted by: Hugh at November 6, 2007 7:04 PM
when are we going to have a Manhattan Project for energy so that we cut off the supply of jizha to the seventh century barbarians and asked for an education at these madrassas it appeared to be a joke there are no modern subjects being studied but it appearers to be lots of Islamic lies see what kind of culture a Islamic culture is all we have to do is look at countries in the Arabian Peninsula where most of the work is done not by their own people but by non-Muslim immigrants their version of the slaves and considering they only banned slavery in Saudi Arabia 40 years ago and apparently still happens it would not be surprising to see if they thought they could get away with it and reject reintroduction of slavery and given the background of the cult of Islam and its roots in the seventh century Bedouin raiders and it's support by the slaves that they took in their raids
Posted by: mowasaperv at November 6, 2007 7:28 PM
So let Pakistan twist in the wind. As long as we keep their WMD from leaking out, who cares? Maybe chaos caused by Islamic extremism will eventually lead to some form of Kemalism. From the sounds of it, Mushie and Bhutto both are pretty damn scared of the jihadis. Wasn't the same fear and loathing the source of the Young Turk movement and Turkish secularism?
Posted by: jewdog at November 6, 2007 7:36 PM
Uh, jewdog, I think that's the problem ("As long as we keep their WMD from leaking out, who cares?") Pakistan's got the nuclear bomb; when Musharraf falls the hardliners take over; then jihadists will have nuclear weapons. How do you suggest we contain them?
Maybe Condoleeza needs to visit India and suggest to President Patil that, if Pakistan should fall, India might want to have some kind of backup plan to keep their archenemy Pakistan from destabilizing the rest of the subcontinent...
Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at November 6, 2007 9:11 PM
Found this at Gates of Vienna
Morocco hits out at enclaves visit by Spanish king.
http://africa.reuters.com/wire/news/usnL06288476.html
Posted by: Borg at November 6, 2007 9:44 PM
Danish political party threatened.
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/world/article2085369.ece
Posted by: Borg at November 6, 2007 10:06 PM
RoobartSbunsar wrote:
"Pakistan is done. I see no way out for them."
Rarely do I agree with you, but I must here. The only out I see is nation-wide apostasy from Islam, which ain't gonna happen, at least not in our lifetime.
Someone better tell Naseem that the "festivities" are about to begin.
Posted by: awake at November 6, 2007 10:09 PM
And these from Galliawatch
Collecting for islam
http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2007/11/collecting-for-islam.html
and this
Higher grades for immigrants
http://galliawatch.blogspot.com/2007/11/higher-grades-for-immigrants.html
Posted by: Borg at November 6, 2007 10:14 PM
Musharraf isn't going to win against the Muslim radicals in Pakistan. He's too nice a guy.
The only kind of person who would know
how to deal effectively with the Islamic radicals is someone like Saddam Husein.
Sadly, the only thing they understand and fear is the paper shredder -- and a tyrant who won't hesitate to use it.
Posted by: rational
at November 6, 2007 10:15 PM
"If you try to fix Islam, you break it." Wafa Sultan.
What else is there to say? madrassas that modify teachings from the Kuran are breaking Islam and putting someone other than Muhammad in charge. Now Islam can't have THAT, can it? (No).
Posted by: pythagoras at November 6, 2007 10:53 PM
Unlike seven years ago, its graduates earn accredited bachelor"s and master"s degrees in Arabic and Islamic studies, in contrast to many madrassas where students become well-grounded in anti-Western Taliban theology but are unable to read or write.
Unlike seven years ago, its graduates can earn accredited bachelor"s and master"s degrees in hate and terrorism
Posted by: shiva at November 6, 2007 11:05 PM
Sorry to say this, Robert, but like Greg before you (yesterday's post) I believe you are seriously misreading the Martial law situation in Pakistan. I Don't believe Mush has imposed this military takeover to crack down on the Islamists but to shore up his working relationship to them and marginalize his political enemies.
Look at the timing of this crackdown, relative to the arrival of Bhutto and the sudden winds of change in popular sentiment in the country. Mush was in deep trouble politically. He had to either face enemies or make peace with them. The "crackdown" is a smokescreen while he carries out his own political repair work -- getting the wrong people out of positions of power and the right people in, taking out enemies and shoring up alliances.
Anyone see him making grand overtures to Bhutto, the lauded anti-islamist, to work together to put down the Islamist uprising? I didn't think so. When the smokescreen comes down, don't be surprised that there is a sudden revelation of new charges of corruption against her -- and either her rapid departure from the country or her confinement to a more permanent abode within it.
If Mush was going to crack down on the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the independent fundamentalist groups he wouldn't be, as we speak, engaging in the exchange of hundreds of prisoners with them. What is transpiring right now is an informal pact of nonaggression, and possibly outright cooperation.
Mush is smart enough to know that, while he may have the military might to crush the fundamentalists, it would be very bloody and would probably cost him his precious hold on power. However uncomfortable his relationship to them has been in the past, the islamists are deeply entwined in his military machine and he knows he needs them. This is the only explanation for the duplicitous game he's been playing with the Americans all along, and it is the clearest explanation I can see for his current actions.
What we WOULD be seeing, if this was a crackdown on fundamentalists, would be an all-out assault on their strongholds, and a purging of their interests in and around the major cities. It would be a minor Armaggedon right now.
Anyone seeing that sort of conflagration going on? Well, then, the explanation must lie elsewhere, n'est-ce pas?
Posted by: Archimedes2 at November 7, 2007 12:13 AM
Islam in its original form is taught in madrassas and schools in islamic countries like pakistan, saudi arabia etc. The reason therefor is the puppet governments and democrazies who do not have the guts to say NO when they should. If Bush senior wanted, he could have demanded democratic rights to islamic countries prior to rushing against Iraq in the first place. It is the islamic countries who do not allow rights to the citizens - either democratic rights, freedom of expression and freedom to worship. Now all of Europe and Asia could join hands for a common cause (except the muslims who fight for and kill to impose their ideology).
Posted by: daniel at November 7, 2007 4:58 AM
"Among the harshest critics of the madrassas is opposition leader Benazir Bhutto, who often accuses the Islamic seminaries of "brainwashing our children" and of producing "mindless robots" of intolerance."
....in other words....turning the children into loyal Muslilms.....
...maybe "RageBoy" is a honor graduate....
...the madrassas probably has courses such as :
...Effigy construction and conflagration techniques
...Effective Hate Banner design
...Stone throwing techniques and trajectory
...Anti Anti-riot techniques
...Proper Cursing Etiquette
...Ambush techniques
...Surveillance and counter Surveillance techniques
...Escape and Survival techniques
...Effective Lying techniques
...Bomb construction and deployment techniques
...Effective torture techniques
...Effective kidnapping techniques
...Proper Forced conversion techniques
...the Art of Embassy Storming
...Taqqiyah, Kitman and Dawa, the theory of deceiving ..
...The Varying ways of securing Jizyah payments from stupid dhimmi governments...
...the Joy of FGM
...Shar'ia Law and why it is good for you...
and ever popular....How to Use the MSM to suit your purposes...
.....many reason to Ban Muslim Immigration...
at November 7, 2007 6:13 AM
Assaalamau Laikum all,
The Jamia Naeemia madrassa is not too far away from where I live but Masjid Al-Farooq Choli Wali in Singhpura is closer.
In truth all madrassae should be doing Holy work...as keepers of Islam's greatest treasures ...you would not expect any less. It is the duty of the Maulvi as custodians of Madrassae to show the light of Islam to all who want to listen and gently pressurise all who don't want to listen.
Any weapons training particularily in madrassae should be strictly forbidden, including the exploitation and the exportation of hate.
In truth also the “explosive” growth of the madrassae is due to the rising population, in Lahore there isn’t even room to swing a cat these days.
With lack of money and schooling facilities…parents do their best to educate childrens free at Madrassae….at the very least they learn to stay close to Allah Paak. Unfortunately it is very difficult for the poor to drop out of this cycle …for anytime the parents are free…bang …another gift from Allah Paak in the form of a child is on the way, contraception is almost taboo…and will remain so at the moment.
It is really this rise in population that needs to be reduced… a smaller population may reduce the need for so many madrassae….
If the Amerike wants to provide aid why not tie it to education in reduction of population, better welfare rather than more childrens…rather than gifting us with 36 F16s at a lower price…
Pak can no longer realistically match India in war…and anyway we have our nucleur ace up our sleeve, I really would rather see a change in priority.
In truth the Amerike wants to see Pak soldiers die instead of your own blond boys against the Taliban….here is the real reason….but remember ….only Allah T’allah knows best….NOT Amerike covert and foreign policy.
Ironically though in some ways infact they are helping keep the economy of the Amerike going....they are doing you losers a favour....can you not see that?
at November 7, 2007 7:01 AM
Unfortunately, Naseem's wishes are in stark contrast with Islam:
Wish: Any weapons training particularily in madrassae should be strictly forbidden, including the exploitation and the exportation of hate.
Reality: Qur'an:9:5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."
Wish: It is really this rise in population that needs to be reduced.
Reality: Allah Tala makes his followers use the same (over)population of 1.5 bil, to intimidate the "kaffurs" to convert or die.
Accussation: In truth the Amerike wants to see Pak soldiers die instead of your own blond boys against the Taliban.
Reality: Pakistan mothered and Saudi Arabia fathered Taliban. Had Pakistan not created Taliban, there would be no soldiers (Pak or Ameican) dying. Looks like Hindu theory of Karma is catching up on muslims and mislims of Pakistan, kyon Naseem-bi?
See how subtly Naseem turns around American aid into an agenda: "If the Amerike wants to provide aid..." as if America is dying to pass aid and arms to Pakistan, instead of thanking white house.
Finally, while Naseem is in the midst of Jihadi destruction, she does not fail to call Ameericans, whose tax dollars provide aid and arms to Pakistan, "losers". Is it because Americans are you know.. "kaffurs", Naseem-Bi?
Posted by: Alert at November 7, 2007 8:29 AM
But that goes along with my idea that islam is more of a political system that only uses religion as a front.
Posted by: R_not at November 6, 2007 4:00 PM
True! Islam is a political movement, disguised as a religion.
Posted by: Alert at November 7, 2007 8:41 AM
Ironically though in some ways infact they are helping keep the economy of the Amerike going....they are doing you losers a favour....can you not see that?
Posted by: Naseem
Excuse me, the ones needing and receiving aid are the LOSERS. America is the sole superpower which makes us winners. We also dole out the most foreign aid and have the best military in the world. Some of our airplanes cost $2.1 billion each. No other country can even begin to afford airplanes that cost that much. We give foreign aid to your military because that's what is asked instead of providing for schools.
Posted by: Bonniea at November 7, 2007 11:12 AM
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