I read a while back that someone in FLA was suing to prevent the construction of a mosque. I wonder if this is the same one, or there are two different suits going on? At any rate I am all for a building ban on mosques everywhere. 'If you build it, they will come', is guaranteed'...Prevent the spread of Islam by preventing the spread of mosques...

Posted by: duh_swami at December 7, 2007 9:46 AM

Amen to that Swami

Posted by: Elric66 at December 7, 2007 10:01 AM

When a developer wants to put in a day care center, or a shopping mall, or a housing tract, he has to have an impact assessment done. The assessment calculates the costs to the community in terms of traffic, road use, park use, schools, trees, etc, etc, etc.

When a Mosque application is made, municipalities should require a 9:29 impact assessment to be done. The municipality should require that a city-approved consultant perform the assessment. It would study things like long-term impacts on surrounding property values, long-term policing costs, etc. Any small town or county could pass an ordinance requiring the study.

The developer (Mosque) would be responsible for paying for all costs associated with its impacts.

In America-2007, a 9:29 impact assessment would probably be ruled unconstitutional if challenged. But it would be a way to discourage Islamic migrations to individual communities and, if challenged, would make for educational TV.

Posted by: pez at December 7, 2007 10:16 AM

'If you build it, they will come', is guaranteed'...Prevent the spread of Islam by preventing the spread of mosques...
Posted by: duh_swami

It's a shame this philosophy doesn't work when building airports and arenas. Quote: "If only we had their numbers."(George Carlin as Cardinal Glick in Dogma)

Good to see that our laws are now being used to shed light on the issue. You know, I think I can hear CAIR's shredders right now.

pez,
If the municipalities also required Christian churches to file the same paperwork there should be no Constitutional issue. If one should have to do it, all should do it. IF one doesn't, then none should. A Catch-22 if ever there was one for the government. I for one would have no issue if all new church construction had to file the same paperwork/studies.

Posted by: Kevin at December 7, 2007 10:32 AM

Kevin:
If the municipalities also required Christian churches to file the same paperwork there should be no Constitutional issue. If one should have to do it, all should do it. IF one doesn't, then none should. A Catch-22 if ever there was one for the government. I for one would have no issue if all new church construction had to file the same paperwork/studies.

Islam should not be recognized as a religion. It is an ideology, a political organization. So the rules that should be applied to Islam are rules/laws for political organizations.

That is where we are wrong in our war against 'terror'. We should wage war against Islam the ideology, the political entity, just like when we waged war against communism.

But which western leader is going to be brave enough and be un pc to say the truth that Islam is an ideology masquerading as a religion?

Posted by: jasmine at December 7, 2007 10:50 AM

Great news and maybe the start of something positive for Europe.

"German ministers say Scientology unconstitutional." A ban could be next in the works.

Report from Yahoo.com

Could issssssslime be next?
I dont think scientologists ever killed anyone in Europe or Germany so it would be a natural progression to outlaw mohammedians next.

Posted by: Hungarian Crusader at December 7, 2007 10:56 AM

...a turnstile for terrorists and their supporters.

In other words, a turnstile for Moslem activists and inactive moderate Moslems (aka moderate Moslems).

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 7, 2007 11:02 AM

...

Posted by: Havoc at December 7, 2007 11:13 AM

One thing needs to be known of Islam. It is not a religion. It was designed as a theocratic tool to augment Arab imperialism. Nothing more ... it is a cult, thier prophet a fraud.

Posted by: ethoman at December 7, 2007 11:19 AM

We cannot grant islam stature equivalent to other Western religions. We should designate it a foreign ideology incompatible with democracy - and outlaw it.

We must reserve the right to make important distinctions. Of course, we should stop the construction of any new mosques in the U.S. We should also shut down any that already exist.

It's only common sense.

Posted by: Havoc at December 7, 2007 11:20 AM

I think all the mosques, and thier holdings should be confiscated by the state, sold off at auction, and the proceeds used to pay for war funding.

Posted by: ethoman at December 7, 2007 11:22 AM

Islam should not be recognized as a religion. It is an ideology, a political organization. So the rules that should be applied to Islam are rules/laws for political organizations.

I've thought the same for years. It's legal status as a religion is a huge problem. It sickens me that I'm not only paying

Based on its scriptures and history, Islam should be accorded the legal status of an illegal government within the United States, given that it's replete with a governmental structure, a military, a belief system that commands its believers to commit crimes (e.g., bigamy), and a legal system.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at December 7, 2007 11:30 AM

Rep. Sue Myric certainly appears to have the right idea. Perhaps it would be nice to contact her office in support of her action thus far.

Posted by: MP at December 7, 2007 11:37 AM

Here’s my contribution to civilization for today:

Ordinance #ABC_XYZ_07

Amendment to the Development Code.

Building applications for faith-based developments shall include an impact assessment that shall include, as a minimum, impacts on surrounding property values and community services. The Community Development Director may, at his discretion, require that an independent consultant approved by his department conduct this study. The developer shall be responsible to mitigate all costs associated with his development.

Votes:
Yes: ____
No: _____

Passed unanimously.

Posted by: pez at December 7, 2007 11:41 AM

Alarmed Pig Farmer

True due to Islams irrevocable connection to Sharia law the structure of the faith itself can be seen as subversive to the state. Knowing this those that follow it are willfully engaging in a theology that if given enough time, could undermine the constitution of any free nation.

Sedition is a term of law which refers to covert conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority as tending toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws. Seditious words in writing are seditious libel.

As the law stands now it can not be used, but as understanding grows about what we face hopefully in time Islam will be reclassified, and this law can be tweaked to erradicate it from our shores.

Posted by: ethoman at December 7, 2007 11:45 AM

It would be constitutionally very difficult to get Is-slime banned as a religion, but it would have been fairly easy to connect all Is-slime-ic organizations banned and confiscated for ties to criminal terror activities under RICO statutes.

Our Saudi-owned Traitor-in-Chief wouldn't do that obvious step after 9/11. Now thousands more will have to die at one time in one or two terrible events for us to get another practical bite at that apple.

Posted by: Charles Martel at December 7, 2007 11:51 AM

The problem is money. CAIR obvioulsy has the deep pockets that other organizations do not have. I wish the plaintiffs luck, they're going to need a lot.

CAIR will have to settle these suits without a fight to avoid discovery. In the case of the mosque, they will just agree to stop construction. In the case of Savage, they will have to agree to almost all of his demands. If CAIR rolls over, their secrets will remain secret.

Anti-CAIR had an opportunity to blow CAIR to bits, figuratively speaking, of course. After it became clear that CAIR wanted out of the suit, a counter suit by Anti-CAIR was all that was needed. However, I presume that Anti-CAIR was so relieved that they just wanted it to end.

As a plaintiff, I would be concerned with the threat of violence, or actual violence. The defendents are Muslims, don't forget.

Posted by: Pelayo at December 7, 2007 11:59 AM

It would be interesting to know when the first mosque was built in the United States. We know, of course, the first churches were part of the settlements at Jamestown and Plymouth. It would also be interesting to know if any of the original mosques still exist today, like many of our centuries-old churches do. And were most of the original mosques storefront ones, as in strip malls and vacant businesses? If so, when did the Wahhab money start flowing in, funding larger and more ostentatious mosques?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Posted by: Rick at December 7, 2007 12:00 PM

Charles,

I agree it would be very difficult to use sedition, for now RICO is our best bet. Yeah it will take WW3 to get the people of this nation to wake up to what is happening. Just saying we do have laws to stamp it out, I'm hoping that by just saying it enough times people will lurk onto this site see the idea and it will perkolate. It is a trueism that if you say something over and over that it may become fact. A drop in the bucket for sure, but what the heck worth a try.

Posted by: ethoman at December 7, 2007 12:05 PM

Here is another good CAIR expose' on WND.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59087

"CAIR's Islamist quizzers
featured at prez debates"

Activists posing as ordinary citizens
influencing national security dialogue

Posted by: justask at December 7, 2007 12:12 PM

I wish we could edit our comments after posting, oh, well.

"The lawsuit may be used to access CAIR's financial records...." Not if CAIR makes a generous settlement offer.

If CAIR can convince a judge that the plaintiff is not responding in good faith to a settlement offer, the suit can be put in jeopardy. I am not a lawyer, but I have enough experience with the legal system to know that a lawsuit cannot be used for a fishing expedition into the defendents records.

Posted by: Pelayo at December 7, 2007 12:12 PM

Hi all
from above "A Christian minister suing to halt the planned construction of a huge Florida mosque "
How is he suing guys under which law. The local muslims here have started buying churches to convert them to mosques. Id love to be able to stop them.

Posted by: ANonnyMouse at December 7, 2007 1:31 PM

"...municipalities should require a 9:29 impact assessment to be done. The municipality should require that a city-approved consultant perform the assessment. It would study things like long-term impacts on surrounding property values, long-term policing costs, etc. Any small town or county could pass an ordinance requiring the study."
-- from a posting above

I assume that the "9:29 impact statement" above refers to a certain sura and ayat of the Qur'an. And then there is the "9:5 impact statement" and the "47:4 impact statement," and the "8:60 impact statement" and a hundred others, from the Qur'an alone. And then there are hundreds more from the Hadith.

What is the impact on property values of having a building put up where those who enter it will hear such remarks, day in and day out, calling them to "not take friends among Christians and Jews, for they are friends only with each other," and reinforcing in a faith that tells them to "slay the Unbeliever" and to regard, as the Model of Conduct, uswa hasana, as the Perfect Man, al-insan al-kamil, Muhammad, who attacked and killed innnocent farmers of the Khaybar Oasis only because he wanted to take their property and seize, as sex slaves, their women, who approved mightily of the assassinations of those who mocked him in verse, such as Asma bint Marwan, who had little Aisha betrothed to him at the age of six, and consummated the "marriage" when she reached the ripe age of nine (and that is why virtually the first act of Khomeini in Iran was to lower the marriageable age of girls to nine), who ordered the decapitation of the bound prisoners of the Banu Qurayza, and whose life is full of bloody campaigns, as well as of the deception that he believed was the very definition of war -- "war is deception" he told his followers, and through time and space they have never forgotten it.

Would not those crowds of Muslims lower property values? Would they not worry you, if you were say, a Hindu, or an easily-recognizable Orthodox Jew? There have been incidents of non-Muslims being beaten to death by excitable Muslims exiting mosques -- you can find some pictures on-line taken, for example, in Bangladesh of a hapless Hindu, pleading in vain for his life to be spared, as he is being beaten to death by an crowd of Believers no doubt inspired by the khutba, or sermon, they just heard. What if there were some event in the world that would make the crowd, that day, particularly upset, particularly violent? Just an imaginary problem, or a real one?

Have not, in mosques in Europe and in Iraq, explosives and weapons and false papers been found, sometimes in false ceilings? Yes, they have. Are homeowners, are local governments, not entitled to be made aware of this, and to take such things into account? Are they not entitled to take into account that in a recent poll conducted by a Kuwaiti television program, 76% of the Muslims polled said those who dared to leave Islam should be killed? Are they not entitled to find out about not only the rituals of Islam -- the shehada, zakat, salat, Ramadan, hajj business -- but also about the Islam that is a Total System, that commands and prohibits, that regulates every area of live, that is collectivist and has no use for the individual, that insists that once one is a Muslim, one must remain a Muslim forever, that does this, and does that, and that, summed up, is not merely, is not even mainly, a "religion" but rather a Complete System of Regulation and Explanation of the Univers, that is, as Churchill long ago wrote, the "greatest retrograde force" in the world.

Are we not entitled to read the Qur'an, the Hadith, and the Sira, with intelligent guides (not apologists)? Are we not entitled to study the 1350-year history of Islamic conquest of non-Muslim lands, and what that meant for the non-Muslim peoples, and their ways of life, their artifacts, their religious structures, everywhere that Islam conquered, no matter where, and no matter if the people conquered were Christians or Jews, Zoroastrians or Hindus, Buddhists or Jains, or any other conceivable group or religion or sect, as long as they were non-Muslim?

We are not so entitled? We simply have to roll over and play dead because some tell us that Islam is a "religion" (why is it only a "religion"? Why is it not a cult? Because it has a billion adherents, rather than a few hundred or a few thousand? Does size matter?) and that, therefore, we must accord it automatic respect.

O no we don't.

Posted by: Hugh at December 7, 2007 1:48 PM

Re: Local Ordinances

Common-sense ordinances are easy to pass, especially when they give more money and power to the government. Just contact your local County Commissioner, or City Council representative and explain to him/her your concern and how the boilerplate ordinance would address your concern. There should be little resistance to passing something like what was posted above.

It has to be in place BEFORE a development application is deemed to be ‘complete’ though. The ordinance would do nothing about the subject Mosque because the building application would be grandfathered in.

Posted by: pez at December 7, 2007 3:53 PM

I always wondered what, 'Islam, one of the worlds greatest religions', actually meant. Greatest at what? Compared to what? It is included with other great religions, based on what? Sheer numbers of members? Was it one of the worlds greatest religions when there were only three mulims? Two if you don't count Mohammad? At what point in Islams career did it become one of the worlds greatest religions, and who designated it as such?
And why is it that this greatness that is so hard to define, given automatic respect as Hugh asks?
It's greatness is hard to define, other than by size, because it's greatness in reality does not exist. There is nothing great about the hocus-pokus, nature of Islam, and there is no natural law of the universe that says we must respect it, especially not automatically. If Islam wants respect, it must earn it. But Islam is not interested in respect. It is interested in domination. The dhimmi infidels who automatically respect Islam, are literally and actually swallowing down the camel. No wonder they cough, choke, and clear their throats a lot.
You don't see Hugh doing that. I bet He has not coughed or cleared his throat in at least thirty years. He knows better than to give automatic respect, and greatness to anyone, or anything.
So far Islam has not shown 'greatness' except for size. There is little hope that it will show greatness in the future. There is nothing there to respect...

Posted by: duh_swami at December 7, 2007 3:59 PM

I hope that all American jihadwatchers - especially those resident in Florida - are going to find out who this pastor is and send him - and his entire congregation - loud, clear messages of encouragement. His snailmail box and his email box should be overflowing with verbal bouquets.

It is entirely possible he may be receiving threats of the ugliest and nastiest kind. Drown out the hatemail with lovemail.

Pray for him and his family and his church. If you're in Pompano Beach, Florida, why not find out where he is and make a point of attending services?

Jihadwatchers who are lawyers might consider following the case and checking out the calibre of his legal team - he'll need a good one. Is the 'David Project' in touch with him?

If he is a black pastor, perhaps send him printouts of some of Hugh's best essays from the archives, on Islam's history of enslaving black people in Africa, the fact that 'black' and 'slave' are the same word in Arabic and that that word has all the ugly overtones that 'Nigger' had in English, and something about Darfur and Southern Sudan, and the long and heroic history of the black Christian kingdom of Ethiopia, a citadel of light in the midst of the dark sea of Islam.

Perhaps he could be sent a copy of Mark Durie's book "Revelation?" which sets out in very plain language the difference between the Biblical and Muslim teachings about 'God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus'; and he could be sent "The Truth About Muhammad", and "The PIG to Islam and the Crusades", so that he can instruct his congregation.

If more could be found out about the details of what this pastor is doing, perhaps jihadwatchers and dhimmiwatchers with deep pockets could pass round the hat for him.

If he sticks to his guns, I think we definitely have a candidate for 'Anti-Dhimmi of the Year Awards, Local Hero Division'.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 7, 2007 4:21 PM

I should add: Florida and USA jihadwatchers who support this pastor's action should find out what are the local newspapers for Pompano Beach, Florida, and send letters to the editor in support of the pastor and/or encouraging people to be sceptical of Muslim 'spin', referencing Quran 9:29, Robert Spencer's books, Bat Yeor's books, Andrew Bostom, and other things.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 7, 2007 4:26 PM

Duh_swami, the "greatest religion" adjective is used only because there are so many followers, which is meaningless considering that many people once believed in phlogiston and a flat earth.

I would consider it a great religion only because of its impact on the world, much like smallpox was once a great disease. The problem is there is no vaccination against Islamiasis.

Posted by: Pelayo at December 7, 2007 4:46 PM

"The problem is there is no vaccination against Islamiasis."

Sure there is. Except it's a lethal remedy.

Posted by: RoobartSbunsar at December 7, 2007 5:16 PM

Islam needs an enema....AIFD in ; CAIR out.

http://www.aifdemocracy.org/about/principles.php

Posted by: itsplayed at December 7, 2007 5:38 PM

Drugs, crime, homelessness, endemic poverty and hopelessness have all plagued Pompano Beach over the past three decades. The despair and alienation within these neighborhoods provides the perfect fertile ground for radical Islam to sow its hatred, anti-semitism, militancy and recruit jihadists.

If the local and state government think CAIR and its undisclosed leadership and financiers will provide positive role models and opportunities for the poorest of its citizens to become part of mainstream America, they are sadly mistaken. Radicalizing, alienating, motivating, indoctrinating, training, arming and mobilizing angry Muslims to further separate themselves from our culture, our freedoms and our tolerance for differences seems more likely.

Corrupt agencies, corrupt politicians who will use the threat of eminent domain to make way for a mega mosque are out of control, answering to no one. Why should it take a Christian minister and leader of another church to investigate who will lead and finance this mega mosque? Homeland Security and law enforcement ought to be all over this problem, yesterday.

If no one will hold the Islamic mafia to the law of the land, the situation in South Florida will become a domino template for more and more mega mosques where the most alienated of our citizens is entrapped by indebtedness to their Muslim 'masters.'

Posted by: BurkasforHitlery at December 7, 2007 7:36 PM

Dumbbledoresarmy's excellent suggestions made me wonder if the leadership at JihadWatch could help this pastor out by arranging contacts with some of the internet sites/activists that broadcast webcasts or radio interviews, or even a little more publicity about his crusade to uncover the leadership and financing of this mosque?

No doubt, CAIR and their minions are watching how things go in Pompano Beach, how much resistance, how much scrutiny their manuevers will receive from those on the frontlines, like the staff at JihadWatch.

Posted by: BurkasforHitlery at December 7, 2007 7:47 PM

Burkasforhitlery, you write, of Pompano Beach:

"Drugs, crime, homelessness, endemic poverty and hopelessness have all plagued Pompano Beach over the past three decades. The despair and alienation within these neighborhoods provides the perfect fertile ground for radical Islam to sow its hatred, anti-semitism, militancy and recruit jihadists."

You're right when you go on to say that Islam will not cure these social disorders. We have a splendid example in the case of the repeated Muslim rioting in France. The mosques in the banlieus are many, well financed and well organised - but have they created peace and good order? NO!!!! Perhaps the civic authorities in and around Pompano Beach, and the newspapers, need to be sent copies of the accounts of Muslim intifada in France...not to mention the figures on corruption, crime, communal violence, domestic violence, sexual violence, poverty and drug use in sharia-compliant Muslim countries such as Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Or the multiple well-documented cases of prominent and supposedly respectable Muslims in the USA being discovered up to their ears in welfare fraud, identity fraud, insurance fraud...for money they were funnelling to Jihad.

In every part of the Ummah, as Hugh never ceases to remind us, drugs, crime, poverty and hopelessness (made worse by inshallah fatalism) proliferate. Islam does not fix ills like these - IT CAUSES THEM, or MAKES THEM WORSE where they already exist.

One does not cure arsenic poisoning (pre-existing social ills) by giving the patient a huge dose of strychnine (i.e., Islam!).

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at December 8, 2007 12:09 AM

Michael Savage is being sued by CAIR for his truthful remarks about Islam. Cair went to Savage's advertisers and threatned to picket them if they did not pull their advertising. Office Max pulled. I now shop a any other place but there. Michael is countersuing for copyright infrigemnent. CAir aired his show without his permission. It should be interesting. These CAIR would like to stop freedom of speech is basically their agenda if it pertains to speaking the truth about IslamFacists. Furryface

Posted by: furryface at December 11, 2007 2:03 AM