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Never forget them
Disputing the claims of the girls' brother, Islam Said, which I discussed here.
"Slain Lewisville sisters mourned at Christian, Muslim services," by Tanya Eiserer for The Dallas Morning News (thanks to all who sent this in):
...Sarah and Amina Yaser Said were buried in a Muslim cemetery in Denton on Saturday. The Lewisville High students were remembered as teens who excelled in academics and athletics....And the police presence was a reminder that the girls' Egyptian-born father, Yaser Abdel Said, is still on the run.
Amina, 18, and Sarah Yaser Said, 17, who both attended Lewisville High School, were found shot to death in a taxi at an Irving motel Tuesday night....
Islam Said has previously disputed widespread rumors and media reports that his Muslim father's religion may have been the reason for the killings. Some have speculated that the deaths may have been "honor killings," a practice in which a man kills a female relative who he believes has somehow shamed the family.
Irving police have said that they are exploring all possible motives for the slayings. Police have acknowledged that the family had some previous domestic problems.
Gail Gartrell, the sisters' great-aunt, said Saturday that Mr. Said had physically abused the two girls for years. Around Christmas, the girls' mother – Ms. Gartrell's niece – had fled because of Mr. Said's threats to kill the girls after he learned they had boyfriends, she said.
"She ran with them because she knew he would carry out the threat," Ms. Gartrell said. "This was an honor killing."
She said her niece returned after Mr. Said told her that he would move out so they could reconcile. Within a few days, she said, the girls were dead.
[...]
The short Muslim service was at a gold-domed mosque in Richardson in a cavernous gym, with prayers piped across loudspeakers. The closed caskets were at the far side of the gym, end to end.
Dozens of Muslim men lined up in front of the girls' caskets. About 20 feet behind them were women in hajibs. An imam then led a Muslim prayer.
Dr. Yusuf Kavacki, head of the Richardson mosque, alternating between English and Arabic, told mourners that all living things are destined to die.
A strange topic, no? It suggests, at least from this report, that he was giving the impression that there was a certain inevitability about this, and deemphasizing the violence and tragedy of it. Might it not have been better to stress the sanctity of life and emphasize that such an act has no justification under any circumstances?
Another imam talked about families being the most important thing in Islam and the need for parents to work to keep their families strong.
Another strange topic. Parents must work to keep their families strong. How? By any means necessary? How exactly should Yaser Said have worked to keep his family strong? Does the imam mean that Yaser Said should have worked harder to keep Amina and Sarah on the Islamic straight and narrow, and then he wouldn't have had to resort to killing them? But since they strayed from that straight and narrow, he did what he had to do to keep his family strong? Is there a hint here of justification for the killings?
Maybe not. I invite this unidentified imam to explain what he said and what he meant -- and if I hear from him, I will publish his explanation. I know how reporters can get things wrong, sometimes willfully. But given the widespread justification within Islam for honor killings, I think these are legitimate questions to ask him.
Posted by Robert at January 6, 2008 8:18 AM
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Not a word from the mainstream media, other than the Washington Times. Is this topic any less sensational than any number of others that became 24-hour feeding frenzies? The two girls were lovely, athletic, intelligent, accomplished.
One consequence of not publicizing the slaughter is that people will not recognize Yaser Said. Is he still in the country, intending to end his life with a suicide bombing?
Last, let me seque from the media to the candidates, who are also less than insightful. Do you think ANY of the viable Presidential candidates sees the importance of stopping Muslim immigration?
Posted by: StillBreathing![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at January 6, 2008 8:43 AM
1. Of course, 'Islam' is a typical name for sons of people who are not at all motivated by religion.
/sarcasm
2. In this case, the reverse of the phrase 'damned with faint praise' applies: these murders were praised with faint condemnation. If there was any condemnation at all, that is.
3. Also soon expect the bozos of the left to pick up on the 'strong family' theme and assert that this reflects the 'family values' of the Religious Right. (that is, if lefties can demean themselves to acknowledge this incident.)
Posted by: Goob at January 6, 2008 8:53 AM
To all -
I work in a public high school and these two girls were typical American teenagers. In fact, they were high achievers.
For behaving no differently than my teenagers or any American teenager; their father beat them, lied to them and then murdered them.
Never forget them, never forgive the "culture" that killed them.
Posted by: tanstaafl at January 6, 2008 9:22 AM
"Not a word from the mainstream media, other than the Washington Times."
Lets face reality in sick,twisted and perverted America.
If the father were a white Jew or Christian who killed for their relifion it would be headline news for a week !
But because he is a molsem he is protected by the perverted governement media complex.
The unspoken U.S. law is ,if it's a Moslem who does what Moslem's do best ,cover it up and keep the American sheeple headed for slaugher dumb on their way to the slaugherhouse.
Posted by: rocketman at January 6, 2008 9:33 AM
I can't forget these girls. Amina's My Space page haunts me.
Again, a Muslim man's wife leaves him and when he tricks her into coming back by agreeing to move out so they can reconcile, he waits like a snake and then strikes. Typical Koranic based behavior.
Don't tell me about how Muslims are all about their families. These killings were business as usual and this man was a typical misogynistic Muslim father whose priorities were control, control, CONTROL. And none of the trolls better get on here and tell us that what we're seeing right in front of our faces isn't really happening.
I pledge to all my friends here that I am embarking on a year of undermining and sabotaging the gains made by pro-Sharia forces in my country. In honor of the memories of Amina and Sarah, sweet, sweet girls, I am going to do something about these lies, these smoke and mirrors tactics, these legal attacks on ordinary citizens by the imaginary victims in our midst. And it will be so underhanded and behind the scenes that the enemies of freedom will not know where to look. I encourage everyone here to do the same.
I'm mad as hell and I stopped taking it anymore last Tuesday night.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at January 6, 2008 9:37 AM
Deadly silence in Sydney:
http://sheikyermami.com/2008/01/04/honor-killing-comes-to-sydney/
at January 6, 2008 9:43 AM
rock on Isabella. I too believe that this is the perfect conversation starter among our peers.
"oh did you hear about those honor killings of the two teenagers in Texas?" from there one can deliniate to any aspect of the threat of Islam's creaping influences into our societies.
I have said this before that on two famous occassions in the US's history members of my family been killed by religous fanatics. This event in Texas is deplorable and this tragedy should become widespread knowledge, know in everyhoushold.
I will be bringing this up at the teachers lounge on monday and will have a list of koranic commadments there to back my claims up. I'm allready known as a firebrand but have had teachers on the side come up and wisper their support.
No fear. Stand up for whats right. If you fall your courage will inspire others to follow suit.
at January 6, 2008 9:49 AM
Look at this clip of a video of Islam Said defending Islam (he looks like a Stepford brother as he does so) while his American born aunt explains how the over the years the girls' mother tried to leave Said, most recently on Christmas Eve, and how he beat them. That does not jive with the brother's pushing the idea that this was a loving family. Look at the mother in the video. She looks like a woman who has been beaten down by taking a lot of crap over the years.
Can we stop pretending now that there is no connection to Islam? No one in the Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, or non-believing circles that I run in believes this is acceptable behavior. None of those groups has any kind of pattern for killing their own to get even or to keep control over their families. Only Muslims do this on a regular basis.
I'm tired of these people killing my fellow citizens in the unspoken name of their religion. It's going to have to stop and we're the ones who are going to have to stop it.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at January 6, 2008 9:51 AM
MSM doesn't want to speak too much about this, since it might be used in the War on Terror.
MSM (Fox included) are a disgrace for the common american.
Thank God we have the blogsphere wherein we can actualy get some news.
at January 6, 2008 9:53 AM
19thgenamerican,
(Can I call you Genny?) I have no fear at the moment because everything I love will be lost if we lose this battle and my life on this earth won't be worth anything if we let these animals win. And I don't want my kids or future grandkids living in fear like these two beautiful girls. (The waste of their young lives just infuriates me.)
Yaser Said is a coward and I spit on cowards. But I will also pray for him because he's so lost, as I pray for those two girls who I can't get our of my mind.
Gotta' go to church! See you guys later.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at January 6, 2008 9:57 AM
This is also a cear warning to all those western women who plan on marrying Muslim men. This (the killings) can happen in your family, if you marry a Muslim man.
Posted by: Crusader at January 6, 2008 9:57 AM
Just to add to the fine comments already posted by StillBreathing, Goob, and rocketman. If the MSM does pick up on the story as anything more than a routine domestic violence, they will present it as an example of hardline religious intolerance in general, with numerous examples cited from fundamentalist Christianity, and Islam mentioned only in passing.
To move just a bit OT, there have been numerous postings in the last few days about honor-killing being a psrt of other cultures, as well as Islam. It seems to me that in most of these cases, the violence is directed against the man involved, not the girl. It's the man who seduced or debauched the sister or daughter that is threatened by the brothers or father, not the girl. Remember the old-fashioned term "shotgun wedding". Also note the laws against statutory rape are intended to eliminate this kind of private vengeance, by making the seduction of a girl under a certain age a matter for the state rather than the family.
In Islam the violence seems focussed entirely on the girl.
at January 6, 2008 10:08 AM
The Planet of the Apes.. same militant thoughtlessness, same beards.
Posted by: lonewolf at January 6, 2008 10:08 AM
Send out Chuck Norris and his rangers to find this roach.
Tie him to a cactus, cover him in honey, and let the ants do the rest.
Save the Texas taxpayers money and hassle of an execution by the state.
Posted by: Hungarian Crusader at January 6, 2008 10:11 AM
Square this "honor-killing" against what the president/commander-in-chief/most powerful man on earth, parrots:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html
.. and he got relected.
Anything wrong with this picture?
at January 6, 2008 10:17 AM
Alert - The link you provided has Bush stating:
"Women who cover their heads in this country must feel comfortable going outside their homes. Moms who wear cover must be not intimidated in America. That's not the America I know. That's not the America I value.
I've been told that some fear to leave; some don't want to go shopping for their families; some don't want to go about their ordinary daily routines because, by wearing cover, they're afraid they'll be intimidated. That should not and that will not stand in America."
Such irony. Muslimahs fear Americans who 'intimidate' them, yet not a word about women who are intimidated with threats of death by the religion of peace.
A question to ponder: Who is more hypocritical - Muslim apologists like Bush and other dhimmis, or Muslims who insist Islam is peace?
Posted by: DJM at January 6, 2008 10:39 AM
As a zionist and a feminist I am so shocked and outraged over what I see as a horrible trend which has continued over these past several years especially in the USA.
I do not understand why the feminist population in USA does or says nothing about these things going on with our females being killed.
The only thing I can think of is that female activists are plenty scared about what is going on in the world and as such is fearful of standing up for what is clearly wrong.
On a personal note, I do not know how to handle and process all the wrongs as it is so beyond anything and everything that is normal and correct in the world.
As I read about these daily tragic events (only to be found on websites such as these), I am outraged that more politicial candiadates are silent about the overall topic of honor killings/ abuse ever present, who run for president.
It makes one wonder if there is truly some kind of vast agenda that is being underscored and ignored in the world and especially now in the USA to quiet anyone's attention from the real problem at large which is all right in front of us if one is awake and alive.
I see in about 20 years or sooner, a terrible drama unfolding here at home and around the globe for our next generation to have to deal with in an awful way. Not only are the events going to dwarf any previous holocaust only 60 years ago, but it has the potential to end civilization as anyone understands it. Such tragic events and happenings addresses all peoples and places except for those who perpetrate it.
I think the USA is going to have to wake up if the people of this land are truly interested in preserving the way of life as being free. This is all a very bad dream to us females who read this and feel very powerless to really do anything about protecting our own....
I am 52 year old woman, and it pains/shutters me to think what females are going to have to deal with down the road and currently owed to this religious policital beliefs going on and to come if goes unchecked.
I cant help but feel the sense of powerlessness that these girls who were killed by their father. However, I have to say also, any one killed by their parents for any reason is awful and is a victim but for such reasons as a honor killing makes it all the more intolerable.
at January 6, 2008 10:46 AM
As a zionist and a feminist I am so shocked and outraged over what I see as a horrible trend which has continued over these past several years especially in the USA.
I do not understand why the feminist population in USA does or says nothing about these things going on with our females being killed.
The only thing I can think of is that female activists are plenty scared about what is going on in the world and as such is fearful of standing up for what is clearly wrong.
On a personal note, I do not know how to handle and process all the wrongs as it is so beyond anything and everything that is normal and correct in the world.
As I read about these daily tragic events (only to be found on websites such as these), I am outraged that more politicial candiadates are silent about the overall topic of honor killings/ abuse ever present, who run for president.
It makes one wonder if there is truly some kind of vast agenda that is being underscored and ignored in the world and especially now in the USA to quiet anyone's attention from the real problem at large which is all right in front of us if one is awake and alive.
I see in about 20 years or sooner, a terrible drama unfolding here at home and around the globe for our next generation to have to deal with in an awful way. Not only are the events going to dwarf any previous holocaust only 60 years ago, but it has the potential to end civilization as anyone understands it. Such tragic events and happenings addresses all peoples and places except for those who perpetrate it.
I think the USA is going to have to wake up if the people of this land are truly interested in preserving the way of life as being free. This is all a very bad dream to us females who read this and feel very powerless to really do anything about protecting our own....
I am 52 year old woman, and it pains/shutters me to think what females are going to have to deal with down the road and currently owed to this religious policital beliefs going on and to come if goes unchecked.
I cant help but feel the sense of powerlessness that these girls who were killed by their father. However, I have to say also, any one killed by their parents for any reason is awful and is a victim but for such reasons as a honor killing makes it all the more intolerable.
at January 6, 2008 10:46 AM
As a zionist and a feminist I am so shocked and outraged over what I see as a horrible trend which has continued over these past several years especially in the USA.
I do not understand why the feminist population in USA does or says nothing about these things going on with our females being killed.
The only thing I can think of is that female activists are plenty scared about what is going on in the world and as such is fearful of standing up for what is clearly wrong.
On a personal note, I do not know how to handle and process all the wrongs as it is so beyond anything and everything that is normal and correct in the world.
As I read about these daily tragic events (only to be found on websites such as these), I am outraged that more politicial candiadates are silent about the overall topic of honor killings/ abuse ever present, who run for president.
It makes one wonder if there is truly some kind of vast agenda that is being underscored and ignored in the world and especially now in the USA to quiet anyone's attention from the real problem at large which is all right in front of us if one is awake and alive.
I see in about 20 years or sooner, a terrible drama unfolding here at home and around the globe for our next generation to have to deal with in an awful way. Not only are the events going to dwarf any previous holocaust only 60 years ago, but it has the potential to end civilization as anyone understands it. Such tragic events and happenings addresses all peoples and places except for those who perpetrate it.
I think the USA is going to have to wake up if the people of this land are truly interested in preserving the way of life as being free. This is all a very bad dream to us females who read this and feel very powerless to really do anything about protecting our own....
I am 52 year old woman, and it pains/shutters me to think what females are going to have to deal with down the road and currently owed to this religious policital beliefs going on and to come if goes unchecked.
I cant help but feel the sense of powerlessness that these girls who were killed by their father. However, I have to say also, any one killed by their parents for any reason is awful and is a victim but for such reasons as a honor killing makes it all the more intolerable.
at January 6, 2008 10:47 AM
Anybody remember the pig races flap at Katy, TX near Houston at the end of 06?
I think those people had an inkling as to what was coming soon their neighborhood.
Any updates?
It's hard to believe that was only a year ago, so much has happened since then.
at January 6, 2008 10:51 AM
islam - one of the "great civilizations"
remember these two young women and this act of ultimate cowardice and example of absolute self-weakness and soul-depravity - every time an "holy man" imam or other self-righteous muslim says "...western culture is wrong ... your women go about revealing their persons in public...and blah blah blah..."
islam is a religion of mental sickness
at January 6, 2008 11:02 AM
Robert asked:
"I invite this unidentified imam to explain what he said and what he meant -- and if I hear from him, I will publish his explanation. I know how reporters can get things wrong, sometimes willfully. But given the widespread justification within Islam for honor killings, I think these are legitimate questions to ask him."
I think you will never get the true answer from this or any other imam. What the imam in fact meant was that killing the girls was necessary to give the family strength. No Muslim could have perceived his words otherwise.
The explanation of this phenomenon was presented here on Jihad Watch as recently as 31. December in Barry Rubin's article on the Profession of Death:
“… in 1933, the Iraqi official Sami Shawkat, gave a talk which became one of the most famous texts of Arab nationalism. "There is something more important than money and learning for preserving the honor of a nation and for keeping humiliation at bay," he stated. "That is strength....Strength, as I use the word here, means to excel in the Profession of Death."
Please reread the article:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019388.php
at January 6, 2008 11:03 AM
I think it would be entirely appropriate to erect a monument to Sarah and Amina Yaser Said somewhere in the vicinity of the local Mosque (preferably, directly in front, facing the Mosque entrance)
The inscription should read, "In memory of Sarah and Amina Yaser Said, and to all victims of Islamic honor killings."
The Mosque Imam, and the Chairwoman of the National Organization of Women, should be invited to the dedication to make a few remarks.
After all, aren't there hundreds of monuments all over this country dedicated to people who suffered in the cause of civil rights.
Organizers can count on a contribution from me.
Posted by: rational
at January 6, 2008 11:31 AM
The imams were saying what Spencer, Hirsi and Pipes always said. Dad was dancing between honour and shame and he had to eliminate the shame to maintain the honour.
The girls look adorable and full of life, don't they! Let us spare a thought for mum who tried to protect them.
Posted by: Tom Peters at January 6, 2008 11:43 AM
The imam at the girls' funeral wasn't "Unidentified" at all. You've mentioned him before:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015934.php
Posted by: Kemalist at January 6, 2008 11:43 AM
Said cleaned out the bank account and took his passport and a pistol.
(FNC)
He's back in Eygpt.
Was his wife an American woman who was silly enough to marry a moslem? With the name Patricia...her sister looks like an American.
It said on the news that Patricia was pregnant at 15, and married this guy.
at January 6, 2008 11:44 AM
Too bad they had to have their funerals at a mosque, with Mohammad's words pronounced over them.
Posted by: interestinconundrum at January 6, 2008 11:46 AM
Complete CV of the imam:
http://www.iant.com/imam/resume1.html
Posted by: Kemalist at January 6, 2008 11:56 AM
These young girls didn't deserve to have their lives taken, and by their father no less. One effect of this will be that more young Muslims, especially in the West, will see how very barbaric and backward Islam is. More and more of them will be liberating their minds from Islam and casting it out of their lives. The die-hards will continue the deception, the charade about the-religion-of-peace, while secretly applauding attacks on infidels worldwide. But Islam is doomed. It is a relic of an earlier and savage time. The world is moving beyond Islam. Even in the Middle East, enlightenment will come, and the concept of love will gain. Islam is in its last gasp. It is thrashing about, trying to fend off the inevitable. All of its bravado and threats will avail not. It will be a rough ride for a few years until this beast finally shudders to its final collapse.
* * *
Circumvent the pablum media. Tell everyone you know.
at January 6, 2008 11:59 AM
So if "all living things are destined to die", then why the obsession with revenge in Muslim cultures? After all, the family member was going to die anyway.
This father is probably back in Egypt, where such killings are not a crime. Notice how they all run back home the minute they get in trouble. They come to the West to "flee" oppression and then scurry home after violating the laws of the country that welcomed them. Egypt doesn't sound that oppressive. It sounds more like a sanctuary for all who practice Sharia.
The media gives the candidates carte blanche to ignore this issue. If the MSM paid half as much attention now as it did when Salman Rushdie got a death sentence from Khomeini, our policies might have changed by now.
Posted by: PMK at January 6, 2008 12:03 PM
The funeral was symbolic of everything that is wrong about Islam.
(1) Men and Women segregated
(2) More worried about Islamic family units and Islamic community units than the two girls killed.
(3) It appears the good imams think this was expected. (in other words the girls were destined for this fate, because they were not good Muslims, or it sounds that way)
My feeling is these girls were not Muslims. They were American girls lynched by their Muslim father and the Islamic community gave him the “rope”.
at January 6, 2008 12:31 PM
The Israeli politician, Avigdor Lieberman, posed the following rhetorical question about Judaism: Do we want Judaism to be a warm and welcoming religion, or do we want it to be ugly and anachronistic?
That's a good question for any religion, especially Islam, but can it be asked?
at January 6, 2008 1:02 PM
The story of the murder of these two young women got some tv airplay in my hometown Saturday evening (11:00 pm news).
The piece was brief, but it got some play.
The piece was captioned "Manhunt in Texas"
The news should a picture of the father w/ his name and showed a picture of the two young women, but did not give their names.
The piece made clear the father was wanted in connection for their murder.
The piece included a brief interview with the son, Islam Said. His name was captioned.
Quote: "My father made a mistake. A big mistake. But you know, everybody makes mistakes." Unquote
The murder was JUST a mistake.
Which member or members of the muslim community coached him to say that?
Posted by: omvi at January 6, 2008 1:03 PM
"The imams were saying what Spencer, Hirsi and Pipes always said.
Dad was dancing between honour and shame and he had to eliminate the shame to maintain the honour"
This same reality is being played out again ,but not against two you girls but a whole nation.
The Arab's have been shamed in their five major defeats at the hands of the Infidel Jews of Israel and are working hard to kill this nation to regain their honor.
Guess who is going out of his way to help them regain their honor ?
at January 6, 2008 1:05 PM
What the imam said:
Another imam talked about families being the most important thing in Islam and the need for parents to work to keep their families strong.
Translation:
This is what happens if you let your daughters date non-Muslim boys. This is what happens if your daughters embrace the American ideology in which human rights are not allocated differently by gender or religion, where women can aspire to equal opportunity and achievement in every sphere of professional and social activity, where there is freedom of conscience and its expression is protected by law, where freedom from violence is codified in law, where chattel slavery is considered an abomination, where life is valued more than death.Posted by: SaracensAtTheGates
at January 6, 2008 1:11 PM
These two girls were given a Muslim burial service and then buried in a Muslim cemetery? There's something both ironic and obscene about this for, minus Islam, these girls would assuredly be alive today.
By the way, Fox News did a segment on this yesterday, including the unequivocal assertion by Brigitte Gabriel (bless her) that these murders were a definite honor killing, a phenomenon endemic in the Muslim world. But shame on the mainstream media for not covering this tragedy. Islam usually gets a pass from the Western media that it would never accord to Christianity, not that the Christian world is a threat to anyone the way the Muslim world is.
Posted by: Wellington at January 6, 2008 1:28 PM
Somebody on another forum planted an idea in my head, and whilst I was showering it started to take effect. Trying to connect some dots here.
Richardson, TX
Holy Land Foundation
Funding of Terrorism
Gold-domed mosque
Apparently entrenched Islamic 'enclave'
This honor killing and the totally underwhelming response by the funereal Imam
The execrable website Jihad Unspun (I wouldn't advise going there without some serious protection)
Did I miss any? It sounds like we may have a serious problem there,
serious. Right down the Highway of Holiness from me.
at January 6, 2008 1:32 PM
This happens often amongst the Palestinian Muslims; these honor killings.
These killers danced, celebrated, handed out candies and sweets on 9/11/2001, as thousands of innocent American citizens lay beneath the World Trade Center tower rubble.
Never mind, as one poster says, 'Do we want these Muslim Arab oil men to destroy or bring chaos to our economy'? We must appease these killers!
Consequently, the White House ordered the FBI to fly scores of bin Laden and Saudi royal family members out of the country, only hours after the Saudi-sponsored atrocities, as American citizens' ruins smouldered helpless beneath the World Trade Center towers rubble.
In another era, Mr. Bush would be tried and hung for treason.
And so, George W. Bush is traveling over to the Holy Land, to Jerusalem (as one poster on JW writes), to do this "dog and pony show;" to give the Muslim jihadists their 23rd Muslim-killer state.
Then we can see all kinds of honor killings in the Holy Land, but what does Bush care? What do Americans care? What do JW readers care?
Stay tuned JW aficionados. Watch our Texas hero in action. In the Holy Land, watch this great American hero.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 1:39 PM
I've been browsing around, looking at what Mohammedans have to say about Islam and honor killing. Naturally, I keep bumping up against protestations that honor killing is "cultural", not Islamic.
This got me to thinking, and trying to remember the last American culturally-motivated honor killing I had heard of. I guess I'm getting old and forgetful, because I'm having trouble remembering the last one.
Okay. This was a cultural event. The Yasser Said family had lived in America, for decades, so this had to be an American culturally-motivated honor killing.
Somehow, this is clangs painfully in my head, as I try to make my brain accept this hypothetical. I guess my next task is to look up the number of honor killings in Texas. It has to be a Texan cultural phenomenon, right?
Riiiiiiiight...
Posted by: Abscedere at January 6, 2008 1:41 PM
This bastard is your typical angry, abusive, hate filled Muslim male. I hope the piece of shit is dealt appropriate justice as soon as humanly possible.
at January 6, 2008 1:47 PM
Dozens of Muslim men lined up in front of the girls' caskets. About 20 feet behind them were women in hajibs. An imam then led a Muslim prayer.
THEY HAD TO BE KILLED TO BROUGHT BACK TO THE FOLD
Posted by: shiva at January 6, 2008 1:51 PM
I'm not sure anyone has commented yet about the girls having a service at a Baptist church with the eulogy said by a Catholic priest before the islamic service.
My question to Robert or anyone else is do you think it really ticked off the imam that this was done? I hope Daddy dearest gets word in Egypt that the girls first funeral was CHRISTIAN.
Posted by: joesamas mama at January 6, 2008 1:51 PM
Here we go;;”The American Muslim”
Relative Violence in Islam and Christianity
By Nick Gier
RELATIVE VIOLENCE IN ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY
“Short of Osama bin Laden getting several nukes and using them, militant Muslims have a long way to go to match the historical Christian kill rate.”
at January 6, 2008 1:56 PM
At least one of the relatives has come to terms with it as an honor killing
Posted by: Silly Allah at January 6, 2008 1:59 PM
In their own words: The Muslims state their moral authority is the Koran. They state that their entire lives are governed by the Koran. Therefore, this type of murder, as they refer to it as honor killing, is justified and is to be accepted not only by all muslims but all non-muslims as well because it is written in their Koran.
I am Pentecostal by faith. This type of atrocity is completely opposite of what is taught in the Bible, my moral authority. Therefore, I will not submit to Islam. I am also not afraid to live my life according to the Bible, regardless of who screams and shouts about it.
at January 6, 2008 2:01 PM
God rest these young ladies two angelic souls! May their beastial father meet his beloved prophet in hell. This whole grisly affair, from the news media's willful information blackout to our Western society’s stubburn refusal to come to grips with the cancerous growth, Islam, in it's midst, gives me a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. God help us!
Posted by: descendantofacrusader at January 6, 2008 2:07 PM
I am disappointed by the stories are being covered in the American media. The focus of the reporting seems to center around how "smart and athletic" the girls had been in their hometown.
The father is described as an Egyptian who struggled with the type of teeange boys that his daughters selected when they were dating.
The term "Honor Killing" as a motive for this slaying is not being seriously explored by "timid" journalists.
The father's religious identity, Islam, caused him to have problems with his daughters choice of boyfriends ( they were non-Muslims).
Clearly, Islam played some role in shaping how the father viewed his daughters and their lifestyle choices.
Yet this fact is omitted from the news story.
There is a direct correlation with Islam, the father's attitude towards his daughters ( they were scared of him), and the eventual slaying of his daughters.
Dating non-Muslims is taboo for Muslim women.
Muslim fathers pressure their daughters to date and marry Muslim men.
This is a fact.
How many Muslim women do you see dating non-Mulim western men?
Posted by: Johnathan at January 6, 2008 2:22 PM
When the government aids and abets those that wish to destroy us, the people have no choice but to turn to an equally militant counter political party.
The future of our Titanic-like nation is not bright ... but seating is still available in the dining area in the meantime ... so enjoy the remainder of the cruise.
Posted by: LoneRanger at January 6, 2008 2:24 PM
1. Actually, not including Brigitte Gabriel's appearance, Fox News has been reporting, at least since yesterday that this is likely an honor killing, and they have stated, several times at least, that it is an ancient Muslim tradition.
I'm sure CAIR is 'consulting' with them right now.
2. I wonder if the girls were circumcised; or if their mother had enough fortitude to tell dad, no, not in this country, and not on these girls you don't.
If she wouldn't allow it, just imagine the torment good ol' dad must have been subjected to down at the masjid for not making his daughters pleasing to Allah.
Posted by: PRCS at January 6, 2008 2:33 PM
Now that aunt Connie has let the cat out of the bag--it's an honor killing--I'd bet CAIR is consulting with her, mom, and little Islam, attempting to keep further facts about Islam and Muslims from the many reporters who might be thinking something is missing between the phrase'Islam is peaceful' and the 'honor' killings they can no longer avoid reporting on.
Wouldn't this be a great opportunity to give mom an opportunity to tell us a little more about 'the religion of peace'?
Here's a 'good one' from Fox a few minutes ago:
He's an Egyptian, she's a Baptist.
They really need to have a sitdown with mom, aunt Connie, and little Islam.
Posted by: PRCS at January 6, 2008 3:01 PM
Robert Crisp, a Catholic priest, led a Baptist service, which was followed by a service at a Richardson mosque.
With the small chapel packed and mourners filling the lobby and spilling onto the front sidewalk, strains of the contemporary Christian song "I Can Only Imagine" filled the room.
"It's certainly OK to hurt and to question – and to question even God (Allah?) – to be sad and angry and confused," Father Crisp said.....
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 3:08 PM
Interesting; "all living things are destined to die>"
Dr. Yusuf Kavakci, head of the Richardson mosque, alternating between English and Arabic, told mourners that all living things are destined to die.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 3:22 PM
"all living things are destined to die"
Translation ; Die infidels and apostate moslems.
That is the message to all so called moderate moslem's even here in the no longer home of the free.
How many moslem daddie's will give their children the look of 'do you understand' or even the talk of family honor.Be sure the U.S government will continue to hide the truth and in fact protect the muslim community as they practice their cult of death ways in America.
America has been purchased by foreigners and you have 1 guess as to what their religion is and it's not Baptist.
That is why things go from bad to worse in America with the foreign owned media failing to do their job.
Follow the money.
Rudi J. turned down $10 million in front of the camera's but there are thousands of corrupt ones who take the money behind closed doors.
That is why we are sunk, greed ,corrupt lying politicians who are never held acountable and an arrogant Bush putting the last nail in America's coffin ,his Palestinian terrorist state in the heart of Israel.
We're done !
at January 6, 2008 3:37 PM
In another era, Mr. Bush would be tried and hung for treason.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 1:39 PM
That Bush has been allowed to get away with betraying this country and it's citizens, is the root of the Islamic problem. Had USA had a president who does care for USA, he would have atleast put Saudi Arabia on notice, if not frozen their funds, expelled Saudi diplomats, held Islamic religion responsible. These would have been steps to protect USA from Islamic terror. Yet, look at what Bush has done:
- Parrot 'Islam us peace': http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html
- Increase ties with Saudi Arabia: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/20050425-8.html
- Increase aid t Saudi Arabia:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/04/20050425-8.html
- Increase student's visa to Saudi Arabians:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200702/NAT20070216a.html
- Opposed 9/11 commission panel:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/05/15/attack/main509096.shtml
... Anything wrong with this picture?
Posted by: Alert at January 6, 2008 3:40 PM
Here is a comment on Face book .
Muslim mans “prayer” about the “incident” that caused Sarah and Amina murder.
"I pray to Allah Akbar that no other incident will push a muslim brother to act in such a horrible manner."
Post #4
Jeremy Binx (Fargo, ND) wrote on Jan 5, 2008 at 10:54 AM.
R.I.P. Sarah and Amina. What has happened is very tragic and senseless. Our muslim brothers and sisters in the west are facing hardships no other muslim has faced. I pray to Allah Akbar that no other incident will push a muslim brother to act in such a horrible manner.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=7824062165&topic=3507
at January 6, 2008 3:47 PM
joesamas mama, you wrote: "I'm not sure anyone has commented yet about the girls having a service at a Baptist church with the eulogy said by a Catholic priest before the Islamic service.
My question to Robert or anyone else is do you think it really ticked off the imam that this was done?">>>
I cannot speak for Robert or his Church. I believe the Catholic Church recognizes Allah as the one true and living God"
"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator
of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God."
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION, ON DIVINE REVELATION
DEI VERBUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED
BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965,
I am a Jew. I have read that our rabbis ruled that it is OK for a Jew to pray in a mosque because Muslims also pray to the one true and living God. To me, this is repugnant. The statement above from Vatican II is equally unacceptable.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 3:52 PM
If this murderer left the country on an international flight from a U.S. or other North American airport, and traveled using his own passport, the F.B.I. will already know this by now. So far, they appear very silent on this topic. If he has returned to Egypt, the president should become personally involved and insist that President Mubarak conduct a man-hunt.
I hope and pray that the F.B.I. will apprehend this miscreant.
at January 6, 2008 4:19 PM
Yes, it is repugnant and unacceptable. The trouble then is the same as now. To many in both Christianity and Judaism think that in order to stop the violence we must find a common ground. A common mistake made by many so-called intelligent people. I believe one of the biggest misconceptions about Catholicism in America is that we are bound to follow the Pope's politically inspired edicts. Had I desire to waste good money, I am very tempted to take Vatican II and thoroughly relieve myself upon it. But I would much rather take the money and go by some liquor today.
monk, something we agree upon. Has anybody found out about a snowball's chance in Hell increasing?lol
Posted by: Kevin at January 6, 2008 4:21 PM
Two things that stick out a mile away.
1. IF YOU ARE A NON-MUSLIM...NEVER MARRY A MUSLIM! The mother of these girls was obviously an American Christian. Clearly no-one told her about the Muslim rule that although a non-Muslim woman need not convert to Islam, all children of the marriage are automatically deemed to be Muslim and required to conform to Muslim rules which (if they are girls) means that they cannot date/ befriend/ get married to non-Muslims. I'm assuming that their boyfriends were either secular or Christian.
2. The bottomless gulf between Islam and Christianity, as clearly visible in the two funeral sermons, by the Christian priest and by the imam.
Christianity: "It's certainly OK to hurt and to question – and to question even God – to be sad and angry and confused," Father Crisp told the mourners.
Islam: "all living things are destined to die" (i.e. inshallah/ resignation/ kismet/ mektoub/ submit to the inexorable Will of Allah).
Christians can question God, even be angry at Him about the cruelties and injustices of the world.
Muslims cannot question allah.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali made that plain in two different interviews. Here is the 'money quote' from the first - she's talking to someone called 'Guernica':
"So that's why I say in the book, Ok, in that case, let's review the individual relationship between God or the concept of God and the individual... If we only see God as an entity that we submit to, but like other religions—and I think Jews have done this, Christians have done this; certainly Protestants have done this—instead see God as an entity that you can argue with, and that means propagating the idea that if you argue with God he won't send you to hell—[laughs]—
Guernica: Otherwise it's hard to win that argument.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali: Yes, of course—because he tells you "shut up."
"So we have to get rid of this idea that God is an entity that only says "I say so" (because in that case God is a dictator) and then you have an argument. And then you can probably win the hearts and minds of young people who just want to live."
Ayaan again - from an interview with 'Reason' magazine online, November 2007:
"I accept that there are multitudes seeking God, seeking meaning, and so on, but if they reject atheism, I would rather they became modern-day Catholics or Jews than that they became Muslims. Because my Catholic and Jewish colleagues are *fine*.
" The concept of God in Jewish orthodoxy is one where you’re having constant quarrels with God [NOTE - Christians have inherited this - look no further than Fr Crisp's sermon at the funeral of Amina and Sarah - 'it's certainly OK to question even God'...].
"Where I come from, in Islam, the only concept of God is you submit to Him and you obey His commands, no quarreling allowed. Quarreling or even asking questions means you raise yourself to the same level as Him, and in Islam that’s the worst sin you can commit.
"Jews should be proselytizing about a God that you can quarrel with.
"Catholics should be proselytizing about a God who is love, who represents a hereafter where there’s no hell, who wants you to lead a life where you can confess your sins and feel much better afterwards. Those are lovely concepts of God.
"They can’t compare to the fire-breathing Allah who inspires jihadism and totalitarianism." [AND, AS WE HAVE JUST SEEN, 'HONOR' KILLINGS, THE MURDER OF 'APOSTATES' AND MURDER OF GIRLS FOR THE 'SIN' OF HAVING A NON-MUSLIM BOYFRIEND].
Ladies - time for 'Submission' to be aired on every single TV channel, public and commercial, cable and satellite, throughout the United States and Canada. Precede it with a black screen and, in white, the following words - "In memory of Aqsa Parvez and of Amina and Sarah Said. LAN ASTASLEM".
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at January 6, 2008 4:36 PM
Dear monk,
Yes, Conciliar teaching of the Church says this, as that is about the sum of what Islam and Christianity share with respect to the understanding of Divine Revelation each have. It is also worth noting what this authoritative document DOESN'T say. Therein lies the difference.
As far as "Allah" being a name for the One True God, YHWH -- the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob called Israel -- non-Muslim Arabs use this name as proper to their language. Arab Christians of different confessions do, yet refer to their Christ (Messiah) as Yasou, not as the ahistorical "Isa" of the Muslims.
Monk, if I can, let me pick up on something where Wellington left off -- that, for all his human failings and shortcomings, it is false to assert that Pope Pius XII sympathised in the least with the Nazis--not even vis-a-vis the Communists--or that he did not save imperiled Jews himself.
Fact: he is DIRECTLY responsible for sheltering over 3000 Roman Jews at his summer residence, Castel Gondolfo (extraterritorial in status) during Nazi occupation of Italy, 1943-44. Another 477 were sheltered within the Vatican itself; 4,238 more were sheltered in monasteries and convents in Rome. I could extend the picture from there, as 80% of Italy's Jews survived -- in good measure due to Pius XII's role as Bishop of Rome and Primate of Italy.
at January 6, 2008 4:51 PM
dumbledoresarmy, this was a long piece, that you wrote. Can you please tell me what you are asking of me? I'm not sure. Thanks so much.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 4:52 PM
John, Moses' revelation was one of life. Muhammad's revelation was one of death.
How can the Catholic church reconcile the two?
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 5:00 PM
I must add, that the Judeo-Christian conception of God, and our Western understanding of Him, is profoundly different than Islam's. Different in our respective views, and different in our respective sources of understanding. So much so, as to call into question the assertion that we are speaking of the same God as the Muslims.
Posted by: John C at January 6, 2008 5:06 PM
John, you wrote: "Fact: he is DIRECTLY responsible for sheltering over 3000 Roman Jews at his summer residence, Castel Gondolfo (extraterritorial in status) during Nazi occupation of Italy, 1943-44. Another 477 were sheltered within the Vatican itself; 4,238 more were sheltered in monasteries and convents in Rome. I could extend the picture from there, as 80% of Italy's Jews survived -- in good measure due to Pius XII's role as Bishop of Rome and Primate of Italy."
I have a copy of Susan Zuccotti's "Under His Very Windows."
Are you familiar with her work? What do you think of Zuccotti's book? Catholic readers do not like Susan Zuccotti. Catholic readers do not like John Cornwell.
My Catholic friends have given me all kinds of apologetic pamphlets defending this anti-Semitic World War Two Pontiff.
What can I say? He hated the Jews. Vatican is very anti-Israel. I consider the Vatican and enemy of Israel and the God of Israel. The Vatican is my enemy and I hope the enemy of Jesus.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 5:11 PM
My apologies.
Correction: I consider the Vatican an enemy of Israel and an enemy of the God of Israel.
The Vatican is my enemy and I hope the Vatican is the enemy of Jesus.
Vatican does not speak for every Catholic.
I hope not.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 5:14 PM
monk,
I entirely agree. But the Church DOESN'T say that MOHAMMED is, in fact, a prophet in that line of prophets he claimed to be--one of those noteworthy omissions I'm talking about. I see in the text you quote a bare admission of JUST those things we (arguably) share in common with the Muslims, nothing more. And even in that, the Church fathers are pointing to the "Seed of the Gospel" on which Evangelization is built and carried out.
Posted by: John C at January 6, 2008 5:18 PM
Monk
Is your lithium prescription late again? I am asking you to take a deep breath and start being a rational person. Think about what you are saying...I am not going to ping pong with you so forget about it.
Posted by: pismopal at January 6, 2008 5:23 PM
You should know, monk,
that I have no use for anti-Semitism, and I'm not blind to its presence, even in the Christian Church (in the Universal sense)--past or present--I'll keep an open mind about such points of dispute, but be assured that I do not sanction moral cowardice anywhere it is to be found.
I think of myself as philo-Semitic, and I am aware of the history of modern Israel and its emergence; I am solidly behind Israel as the bulwark of universal rights and freedoms in the face of Islamic supremacy and totalitarianism.
Posted by: John C at January 6, 2008 5:29 PM
pismopal: "Is your lithium prescription late again?"
Come on. What is this? Who are you pismmopal?
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 5:29 PM
"Today, Palestinians and other Muslims in fact suffer wrongs that cannot be justified."
Is this true? Have the Palestinian Muslims and other Muslims suffered wrongs at the hands of the Jews and Christians that cannot be justified?
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 5:35 PM
Correction: I consider the Vatican an enemy of Israel and an enemy of the God of Israel.
The Vatican is my enemy and I hope the Vatican is the enemy of Jesus.
Vatican does not speak for every Catholic.
I hope not.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 5:14 PM
I am now very sorry I asked the question about the girls first funeral. I just wanted to know if there is anything unislamic about having a Christian rite performed.
As a Catholic myself I did not mean for my question to become a Christian/Catholic bash session. I just wanted to know if it was a slap in the face of the girls daddy and/or a slap at islam? I am not the brightest person on this site, but I truly believe Christianity is Christianity plain and simple and it does not believe in killing your children.
Posted by: joesamas mama at January 6, 2008 5:43 PM
John: I see in the text you quote a bare admission of JUST those things we (arguably) share in common with the Muslims, nothing more."
What do we share in common John?
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 5:45 PM
Please, let's stay on topic-- it's a particularly important one, and airing grievances against the Catholic Church (or other denominations) is contrary to the purpose of this site anyway.
Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor
at January 6, 2008 5:54 PM
TO Monk:
Since you visit this web-site, it is at least probable that you believe that Mr. Spencer does everything in his power to only write the truth. If this assumption is correct, please pick up a copy of Mr. Spencer’s latest book, Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn’t. Focus on chapter 9 Faith and Unreason. In this chapter, he goes into some detail as to exactly how the conception of God differs between Christianity and Islam. They are not even remotely the same.
As for your anti-Catholic diatribe in general, and your invective for Pope Pius XII, please focus on pages 119 – 125. After you have done so, please let me know if you wish to apply your statement:
“My Catholic friends have given me all kinds of apologetic pamphlets defending this anti-Semitic World War Two Pontiff.”
to Mr. Spencer.
“The Jewish Post of Winnipeg asserted in November 1958 that no one did more ‘to help the Jews in their hour of greatest tragedy, during the Nazi occupation of Europe, than the late pope.’” (page 124)
You are horribly misinformed and blinded by your hatred.
at January 6, 2008 6:03 PM
Please, let's stay on topic-- it's a particularly important one, and airing grievances against the Catholic Church (or other denominations) is contrary to the purpose of this site anyway.
Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor
Yea for real.
I thought I found something interesting in this "prayer" and no one commented.
Here is a comment on Face book .
Muslim mans “prayer” about the “incident” that caused Sarah and Amina murder.
I pray to Allah Akbar that no other incident will push a muslim brother to act in such a horrible manner.
Post #4
Jeremy Binx (Fargo, ND) wrote on Jan 5, 2008 at 10:54 AM.
R.I.P. Sarah and Amina. What has happened is very tragic and senseless. Our muslim brothers and sisters in the west are facing hardships no other muslim has faced. I pray to Allah Akbar that no other incident will push a muslim brother to act in such a horrible manner.
http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=7824062165&topic=3507
at January 6, 2008 6:09 PM
patagonianplato:" As for your anti-Catholic diatribe in general, and your invective for Pope Pius XII, please focus on pages 119 – 125. After you have done so, please let me know if you wish to apply your statement."
Wait a minute. You do not know anything about me. If you read my posts, you would see I have stood side by side my pro-life Catholic friends in peaceful protest at our local abortion mill. What have you done patagonianplato, for the innocent unborn? May I ask you? What have you done?
Marisol Seibold has shut down all discussion on this topic. Fine. I have invested my hard earned money on Robert Spencer's books and audio. I do not have this latest book you site. Please then, if you would, transcribe pages 119 - 125 for me. I would be grateful as would Robert Spencer's God, I am certain.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 6:13 PM
My apologies.
Correction: "I do not have this latest book you cite."
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 6:16 PM
I see.
Robert, this is a shame. You quote these Jewish traitors. I am very saddened by this.
Posted by: monk at January 6, 2008 6:42 PM
Assalamau Laikum all,
You peoples are right to vent your anger on this most henious crime. There can be no defence for such a lund. I cannot even begin to imagine how one could do such a thing.
Finding/buying a gun and bullets would be the easy part due to your lax laws.
But to then take his daughters in his taxi...knowing what he was going to do...after raising them to this age....I mean under what pretext would he have taken them out ...."come on girls...let me buy a pair of skirts!" Possibly the girls would have jumped for joy thinking that their Abu had somehow changed and they raced each other to his taxi.
But then away from the shopping centre...and in some desolate spot ...he would have stopped , and pulled out the loaded gun.
He would have pointed his gun at them...vented his anger...possibly in Arabic which the girls may not have understood...but they would have understood his anger...and their own emotion would have been one of extreme fear...hugging each other...and saying "Abu ...no"....but the bastard would have shown no mercy...and shot them...possibly (falsely) taking Allah's SWT name to justify his guilt.
And after the shooting with them bleeding in the back seat, he would have sat still....looking at the gun, feeling lighter by two missing bullets and shaking with fury, excitement...shouting and saying "I warned you...told you not to push me too far,....what do you say now?"
But the two sweet girls would no longer talk to him....their young souls would have already been rescued by Allah SWT....truly heart wrencing....not a fate to be wished upon lightly onto anyone.
Folks, this Amerike citizen needs to be captured and fast....and I agree with you that the media needs to help find him and bring him to justice...where ever he is on Allah's SWT earth.
Posted by: Naseem at January 6, 2008 6:50 PM
When the government aids and abets those that wish to destroy us, the people have no choice but to turn to an equally militant counter political party.
LoneRanger,
First the people need to form such a party. Until then, we'll only get more of the same. The aiders and abettors can be found at all levels in both of the major parties.
at January 6, 2008 6:56 PM
monk: I thought you would be interested in knowing that John Cornwell, who wrote Hitler's Pope, published in 1999, five years after his book came out essentially repudiated his own work on Pius XII with the following statement: "I would now argue, in the light of the debates and evidence following Hitler's Pope, that Pius XII had so little scope of action that it is impossible to judge the motives for his silence during the war, while Rome was under the heel of Mussolini and later occupied by Germany."
As you know, monk, I am not in the least religious, but fair is fair and I again assert to you what I did on a previous post and that is that Pope Pius XII saved more Jews by far than any other person in all of Europe duing the World War II Era. You fault him for not speaking out, but he very well knew that if he did his effectiveness in a whole host of areas, including saving Jews (and he saved hundreds of thousands), would have been dramatically, if not completely, diminished. I consider Pius XII probably the single most wronged major public figure of the entire twentieth century. He was extraordinary and literally thousands upon thousands of Jews today would not have been born but for this magnificent, immensely decent and extremely shrewd human being. I would also add that I think the world is far better off with the institution of the papacy than it would be without it. Please reconsider your positions here, monk. And, of course, I write with respect once again.
Posted by: Wellington at January 6, 2008 7:14 PM
TO KoranKrusher:
Your point in very intriguing. However, I believe that someone said that he took his passport and emptied his bank account. Assuming that this report was even correct, if he was planning on committing suicide after having murdered his two daughters, why would he need either money or a passport? And, why wouldn’t he just save a bullet for himself and end it right there? This happens quite often.
As Mr. Spencer has explained, suicide in such a fashion is un-Islamic. If he did such a thing as you suggest, this would mean that he violated his faith’s law.
at January 6, 2008 7:27 PM
My guess is that if he didn't make it out of the country already he is being sheltered by "friends" of like mind.
Posted by: dms at January 6, 2008 7:54 PM
The imams' comments sound like agreement with that Yemen Times article "Why there must be violence against women"
http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1117&p=community&a=6
because after all, the family is supreme and the head of the household is responsible for his entire family's spiritual obedience; so a man's gotta do whatever he must do to keep the family submissive to Allah's glorious will. (Which, as commonly understood, means being subservient and totally obedient to the Islamic head-of-household's will. Interesting how God's will is conflated with man's will, in such cases...)
Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at January 6, 2008 8:05 PM
Naseem...Your sorrow would be more honest if you left out all the crap and just said something nice about the victims. I expect you to evade the subject of an Islamic connection. Your description leaves
out the very real possibility that he shouted Allahu Akbar (swt) while firing his gun. You know the one he got because of lax laws in America. It's interesting that you should mention that since it seems nearly every male in Pakistan is an armed muslim terrorist. Where did the terrorist in the Red Mosque get all those heavy weapons to fight the Army/police? And the gun fired at Bhutto? Must be some lax laws somewhere in Pakistan. Anyway Naseem, that was a lousy eulogy for your murdered sisters...
at January 6, 2008 8:10 PM
To: DMS who said,
“My guess is that if he didn't make it out of the country already he is being sheltered by "friends" of like mind.”
Your point is well taken. Such “like minded people” have kept OBL sheltered for a very long time. Of course caves in Pakistan and Afghanistan are not the same as the continental U.S.
at January 6, 2008 8:15 PM
"These young girls didn't deserve to have their lives .... to its final collapse." .. Well said Rahman
Posted by: Tom Peters at January 6, 2008 8:16 PM
I Can Only Imagine
The music featured at their Christian funeral
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3LUc78vbDk
at January 6, 2008 8:24 PM
'And after the shooting with them bleeding in the back seat, he would have sat still....looking at the gun, feeling lighter by two missing bullets and shaking with fury, excitement...shouting and saying "I warned you...told you not to push me too far,....what do you say now?"'
No honey, he didn't wait around to get caught. Cowards never do. He hightailed it to and over the Mexican border, probably under some friendly drug dealer's back seat for which he paid 1000 bucks, had a little siesta on the beach for two days while he practiced his fractured Spanish, and then got an all-expense-paid trip to Iran, thanks to Hugo Chavez, and embarked on his one man show, "How to kill a ho," with special guest host and beloved humanitarian, Ahmadinejad, now appearing nightly.
I am not as concerned with Yaser Said as I am the other 100 b-zillion Muslim guys that will think this was just great and want to try it out themselves.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at January 6, 2008 9:01 PM
Dr. Yusuf Kavakci, head of the Richardson mosque, alternating between English and Arabic, told mourners that all living things are destined to die. Another imam talked about families being the most important thing in Islam and the need for parents to work to keep their families strong.
I would love to know if the translations were exactly the same.....
Posted by: interestinconundrum at January 6, 2008 9:02 PM
monk -
I was reflecting upon the article about the two funerals, Christian and Muslim, which were held for Amina and Sarah.
Two sets of data were provided by the article.
One was that the girls' mother was from a Christian family. I drew from this the obvious conclusion that her experience suggests it is not wise for a Christian (or, in fact, any non-Muslim woman) to marry a Muslim.
The second set of data involved the words of the priest at the Christian funeral, and the words of the imam.
The priest gave his congregation permission, in their grief, to be angry at God (the biblical god) and to ask questions.
The imam stressed resignation - 'all living creatures must die': this clearly relates back to the way Islam conceives of the Will of Allah; he also stressed the imperative of maintaining social order, thus implicitly justifying or excusing the murder/er. I think all of us here at jihad watch and dhimmi watch have come to understand that the despotic theology of Islam both authorises and reflects a totalitarian social order.
In support of the contrasting attitudes - Islamic and Christian (or, more broadly, Biblical) I thought it appropriate to give two statements by Ayaan Hirsi Ali where she contrasts the attitude toward allah in Islam - one must submit, without daring to question or complain - with the confident approach to God that is found among both Jews and Christians.
For the same reason, I thought 'Submission' should be mentioned, since it brings together Islamic theology and Islamic abuse of women, exposing the nexus between them.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at January 6, 2008 9:22 PM
naseem,
Please prove where this man is for sure an American citizen.
And to the rest of the rational thinkers, what culture that is not religiously inspired disallows dating outside its "culture"?
Also, about the facebook revert in ND stating they made the dad murder his daughters, no comments, because it is par for the course. It is normal dialogue for a muslim to engage in. Typical victimspeak.
Posted by: winoceros at January 6, 2008 9:27 PM
Can anyone tell me what the arabic means in the article by the imam cited above (on his CV)? thanks in advance
The Importance of 'Ilm al Khilaf to North America", American Journal of Islamic Social Sciences, Vol. 8, Number 3, Herndon, Virginia, Dec. 1991.
Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at January 6, 2008 9:54 PM
We've been talking about this at work and around the house. It's been easier to get the point across to the kids since it took place a stone's throw from where family lives in Dallas and not the other side of the earth.
Our daughter (15) was absolutely horrified that any father could do something like that to his own children (this comes from a kid who saw her share of abuse before we adopted her). In turn, it's led to some good conversations about the differences between Christianity and islam. M---- is like a typical teenager most days, but you can get her undivided attention with some issues. She's seeing the light on this.
It's going to have to be the same way with other people. Isabella's correct that we've got to keep driving home the point of what happened and why it happened. This isn't some weird cult killing people on the other side of the world, this are cult followers killing people here at home. In this case, it happened right in ther back yard.
The press isn't going to cover this since it doesn't fit their mold of "Christians and Jews are guilty- moslems are only innocent victims" and even the 'conservative' administration we have will say nothing or play it down. This fight is going to be carried person to person, blog to blog. The shock value of the barbarity of these recent killings alone will get people's attention. We can't let this go away. Do whatever you can at any level to keep it in view.
I still cannot imagine what kind of man would shoot his own daughters like this. And this...this is the kind of person/people we're 'reaching out to'?
Posted by: livefreeordie! at January 6, 2008 10:11 PM
think it is an assumption. It is reported he emptied his bank account and took his passport. He would have had to fly out of the country right away before the leak of the murder(s).
To confirm this, one would have to go through passenger lists and to look into his bank account. To fly abroad is very expensive, especially on short notice. I don't think a cab driver makes that kind of money. I am still saying it is possible that after the murder(s) he felt remorse and may have taken his own life.
Posted by: KoranKrusher at January 6, 2008 7:37 PM
Mr Korankrusher:
It is most likely he fled the country hours after the murder. He killed the girls less than a 10 minute drive to DFW International airport. Also he knew the police would not find out their identities until hours later. He would be in flight for hours by the time the police even realized the father was the killer. Also the muslim population from where he is from is very close knit even if you are not related. i.e. religion is thicker than blood.
at January 6, 2008 10:12 PM
Also the muslim population from where he is from is very close knit even if you are not related. i.e. religion is thicker than blood.
Posted by: joesamas mama at January 6, 2008 10:12
Sorry, I meant to say the part of Texas he is from is very close knit, not meaning where he is from in Egypt.
Posted by: joesamas mama at January 6, 2008 10:13 PM
Compounding the heinous nature of the cold blooded murder of these two beautiful gifts from heaven, Sarah and Amina Yaser Said, is that despite all the horrors that this most pious monster who followed the example of his demented prophet and their most curious mother each taking their final assault on these precious innocent souls by serving them up at the altar of Islam for the funeral, where the master of ceremonies chose to make them an example to the community. (spit spit spit)
Even after the mother admits running from the father earlier - she willfully stepped back into the mosque with the bodies of her dead daughters. If this heinous murder didn't wake her to the insideous nature of 'her' god . . .if her own son's betrayal, as he coldly and without hesitation defended this awful belief system while his sisters bodies cooled to room temperature . . .if all that hasn't brought these girl's mother to her senses - than she, along with her disgusting son deserves the hell that lays before them.
As for the sperm donor - I hope to hear the words "wanted, dead or alive". Texans know how to take care of business, and the long arm of Texas has a well documented history of wrapping itself around this small small world.
at January 6, 2008 10:24 PM
You peoples are right to vent your anger on this most henious crime. There can be no defence for such a lund. I cannot even begin to imagine how one could do such a thing.
Posted by: Naseem at January 6, 2008 6:50 PM
Quite simple, troll. All it takes to commit a crime such as this is to be a Muslim male who carries the violence inside of him that Muhammad the desert nomad with a mental disorder prescribed 14 centuries ago, and who is intimidated by females because they are more intelligent than he.
This was a Islamic culture driven chicken shit murder, plain and simple, so go blow your smoke somewhere else.
Posted by: Prickzilla at January 6, 2008 10:32 PM
"I still cannot imagine what kind of man would shoot his own daughters like this. And this...this is the kind of person/people we're 'reaching out to'?"
I can. This is the same kind of guy, another Muslim, who had a family meeting to decide who would kill his teenaged daughter because she got pregnant by the boy-next-door who dumped her as soon as he found out. The eldest sister's husband volunteered and then proceeded to pour gasoline on the girl's head and light her on fire. When she didn't die and was taken to a local hospital, her mother came in a with a "magic potion" and encouraged her to drink it because if she didn't just go ahead and die, her brother-in-law might get in trouble. A quick thinking doctor walked in and knocked the poison out of the mother's hand and banished the parents from the hospital.
The mother was the same woman who each time she gave birth to a girl child, (after she'd had three) took a pillow and smothered it to death, because the father thought all girls were worthless and told them so every day of their lives. One younger sister of the burn victim apparently used the phone, which was against the law in that house, and the younger brother strangled her to death. the burn victim could not remember it clearly because she of the trauma she had suffered, (her dad beat her and her sister daily as a sort of game. He would give them so many minutes to bring the sheep home and if they were late by a minute, they would be severely beaten. And he always found ways to se4t them up, sadistic bastard.) But she knew she had had a younger sister and something happened to her. She said once her sister disappeared, no one in the house ever spoke of her again. It wasn't until a neighbor showed her a Polaroid picture of the strangled sister that she was really sure it had happened.
This story has a happy ending though. A sharp aid worker was able to convince the parents to sign a waiver so she could take the burn victim to Europe so she could die and the family could regain it's honor. The girl had her baby, went to Europe, healed, learned a trade, got married and had two girls and was reunited with her son after twenty five years.
This girl's name was Souad and this happened in, I think it was Gaza, in the later 1970's. She is the only known survivor of an honor killing. Oh, and did I mention she was brought up as a Muslim?
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at January 6, 2008 10:36 PM
Isabella
I've read the book and it took place in the west bank She was burned on over seventy percent of her body and is in permanent exile and is very lucky to have survived. She is, of course, permanently disfigured.
at January 6, 2008 11:48 PM
Honor Killing - what a contraction in terms.
This monster, posing as a father, did not bring honor to himself, his family, or his so-called religion; instead he brought dishonor to his family by gunning down these two precious, innocent girls in cold blood to satisfy the requirements of his "religion of hate & bloodletting".
Posted by: champ at January 6, 2008 11:48 PM
There's an update at Fox News.
She says Sara, Amina and their mother Patricia all were reportedly in fear of Yased Abdel, and had a plan to leave him and start a new life for themselves. The trio worked at a local grocery store, and had all applied for transfers on Christmas Eve.
Yased had expressed plans to leave the home himself, instead, and thereby re-gained an opportunity to be alone with the daughters --for dinner on New Years Eve, to talk.
He lied. He (presumably) killed. He fled. Perhaps to Egypt.
Posted by: abolitionist at January 7, 2008 12:17 AM
Wellington, you wrote in part: "John Cornwell, who wrote Hitler's Pope, published in 1999, five years after his book came out essentially repudiated his own work on Pius XII...... but for this magnificent, immensely decent and extremely shrewd human being."
Unfortunately, Cornwell, a Catholic, was cowed into retreating by the Vatican. Too bad. The man took extraordinary public abuse from his church for a fine work. I read "Hitler's Pope."
Cornwell wrote: 'given this background, we are obliged to conclude that his (Pius') silence had more to do with a habitual fear and distrust of the Jews than a strategy of diplomacy or a commitment to impartiality. He wa perfectly capable of partiality when Holland, Belgium, and Luxemburg were invaded in May 1940. And when German Catholics complained, he wrote to the German Bishops pointing out neutrality was not the same as "indifference and apathy where moral and human considerations demanded a candid word." So, did not moral and human considerations involved in the murder of millions merit a "candid word?"
'That failure to utter a candid word about the Final Solution in progress proclaimed to the world that the Vicar of Christ was not moved to pity and anger. From this point of view he was the ideal Pope for Hitler's unspeakable plan. He was Hitler's pawn. He was Hitler's Pope'. (pages 296-297)
On one thing we agree Wellington. Pius was "extremely shrewd" as you've twice written. He was cunning, sly, crafty, wily, shrewd, slick and a host of other adjectives you might imagine.
at January 7, 2008 1:05 AM
Yo, Aunte Bea
Anybody remember the pig races flap at Katy, TX near Houston at the end of 06?
I think those people had an inkling as to what was coming soon their neighborhood.
Any updates?
It's hard to believe that was only a year ago, so much has happened since then.
Posted by: Aunt Bea at January 6, 2008 10:51 AM
Did a little checking. Can't find much, but this is what I found. One, the KIA(Katy Islamice Association) web domain is up for sail. Two, they owe taxes on the property from 2006 as of Jan 3, 2008. And finally, there is no mention anywhere of the construction happening. I will check with my relatives back in Houston to find out for ya.
Posted by: Kevin at January 7, 2008 2:25 AM
champ,
He did bring honor to his family and islam. That is the problem. Remember, islam places less value on the lives of women and non-muslims. I guess when you boil it down, islam is nothing but about honor killing. The honor in question always being theirs.
Posted by: Kevin at January 7, 2008 2:53 AM
eve_anne_gelical asked what 'Ilm al Khilaf meant.
It's the branch of Muslim theology that deals with the differences/disagreements between Muslim sects. "Ilm" means science/study; "Khilaf" means disagreement/dispute.
at January 7, 2008 3:20 AM
dumbledoresarmy, you wrote: "The imam stressed resignation - 'all living creatures must die': this clearly relates back to the way Islam conceives of the Will of Allah; he also stressed the imperative of maintaining social order, thus implicitly justifying or excusing the murder/er.">>>>
I am troubled by a deterministic theology that excludes free will, choice and personal responsibility for our actions. If everything is foreordained by God or Allah, where then is accountability?
Posted by: monk at January 7, 2008 6:06 AM
"Folks, this Amerike citizen needs to be captured and fast....and I agree with you that the media needs to help find him and bring him to justice...where ever he is on Allah's SWT earth.
Posted by: Naseem"
...He was not an American Citizen..HE was a Muslim immigrant to America.....
...Ban Muslim Immigration....
at January 7, 2008 8:26 AM
...It was Islam that killed the girls...
Posted by: exsgtbrown at January 7, 2008 8:28 AM
Debbie Schlussel got an e-mail from the great aunt!
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/
Posted by: Aunt Bea at January 7, 2008 11:09 AM
I watched an interview on Fox when a local news babe described parents of the victims as mixed; " the mother was a baptist and the father was an Egyptian." There again an example of the press not feeling comfortable describing someone as a muslim.
Posted by: pismopal at January 7, 2008 1:44 PM
Yes, monk - I too am disturbed.
I hope it's clear that I wasn't *endorsing* the Muslim view - only attempting to describe it.
G K Chesterton in 'The Battle of Lepanto' imagines 'Mahound' troubled by the approach of Don John of Austria and the Christian navy, in these words:
'
it is he who says not 'kismet', it is he who knows not fate
it is Richard, it is Geoffrey, it is Godfrey at the gate!'.
But one could just as easily write -
It is Jacob, it is Moses, it is David at the gate!
since I don't see much fatalism or blind resignation in the Hebrew scriptures or in Jewish tradition, either.
Just compare the Quranic version of the commissioning of Moses, with the original Biblical version, and you'll understand all you need to know about the difference between the Biblical and Islamic world views.
Jacob wrestling all night long with the angel is the archetype of Judaism.
And, of course, if one can answer back to God, wrestle with the angel of God, then answering back to mere earthly authorities is perfectly imaginable. Which takes us back to the cultural level, and gender/ family relations.
I remember reading a hilarious column in the Jerusalem Post, some years ago, which contrasted gender relations within Judaism-on-the-ground, with gender relations in Islam-on-the-ground. The action took place in the souk: the Jewish writer described the total nonplussing of a Muslim stallholder upon observing the confident self-assertion of your average Jewish Israeli housewife vis a vis her man and, indeed, men in general. The Muslim simply couldn't *believe* that any mere woman could be allowed to behave like that and get away with it.
at January 7, 2008 6:28 PM
The brother may have believed his father in that no harm would come to his sister.
If that is the case and the brother was used by his father to con his sisters, one would have to pity this young man.
But if he was in agreement with his father then he is as guilty as pulling the trigger.
Hopefully the truth will all come out and this evil “father” will caught.
It would be sad for the mother to lose her whole family if the brother was in agreement with this sick plot of his father.
This should be a wake up call for women, don’t marry a Muslim.
at January 7, 2008 8:13 PM
"I do not understand why the feminist population in USA does or says nothing about these things going on with our females being killed."
The dominant post-modern guiding philosophy on the far left (and the far left is where the power centers of feminism sit) involves a Foucaultian view of power struggles. Individuals are constructs of historical power structures. In an important sense, the power struggles themselves, working their way through a group as culture, have more primacy and more importance than individuals that come and go.
Furthermore, following Marx, the classical liberal position on individual rights is considered suspicious on the grounds that it supposedly creates larger social structures which then work to oppress certain groups. (There is a tiny grain of truth to this: the more libertarian/anarchic period of US history lead to domination of the society by Rockefeller and other industrialists, to the point that their goons often formed a de facto -- and usually very oppressive -- government of the working classes. The Marxist critique and solution to this, however, is deeply flawed; different subject though.)
Most feminists in positions of influence are thus beholden to philosophies, like these, that are deeply collectivist. The traditions of a culture are more real than the individuals within the culture, and more real than their supposed reasoning capacity (which is typcially considered a mere Western cultural artifact and not an special route to truth) and more real than the old-school understanding of their rights as individuals (such rights similarly being considered a mere cultural artifact, and furthermore one which often works to oppress).
As a result, most feminists are in a major bind. Superficially they want "rights" for women, but the philosophy underneath their conception of rights is collectivist. Many therefore can't see standing up for basic individual rights of people in other cultures as anything other than a disrespct for the rights of those cultures as cultures, with this latter form of rights being considered more important that the superfical but not philosophically backed (by their philosophy) view of rights held by more moderate but less intellectual feminists.
It is also ultimately based on a particular Christian theology about en emerging godhead - Hegel is behind both Marx and Foucault. And in Hegel, you have a view of power that goes back to Augustine: force and coercion coming from other people (if they agree with Augustine) is really ultimately from God. Augustine came up with this to justify his persecution of heretics -- even non-violent heretics -- as coming from God. It is a sort of might makes right because might is God's power active in the world sort of argument. Sound familiar?
The intellectual antidotes, in my opinion, are existentialists like Kierkegaard and rationalists like Mill (and the more advanced and modern philosophical equivalents). The critical factor is that both give some innate value to the individual - even the Utilitarian focus on pleasure and pain does this, because ultimately the individual is what can feel pleasure or pain (and then of course Mill's understanding of liberty goes even further). Both these, however, involve some significant limits on centralization of power, and thus tend to be relatively unpopular with people who have and seek power.
Posted by: hope_and_justice at January 8, 2008 11:09 AM
Naseem,
It is well documented that Americans' right to bear arms saves many, many more lives than it costs.
It prevents crime by letting people of all shapes and sizes protect themselves from criminals, and by letting would-be criminals know that attacks they plan are very risky.
This is why you see a huge increaze in concealed carry in US states over the past few decades. It is a cheap way for states to cut down on prison costs, court costs, and policing costs.
In this case, distribution of power works far far better than centralization of power and reduction in freedom.
The real cause of these crimes is the man and his motivations.
Furthermore, the man was apparently larger than the girls, managed to beat them for years, and apparently managed to get them into his car before shooting them. This suggests that he could have almost as easily slit their throats or strangled them.
Should we make kitchen knives and razor blades illegal? Or rope? Or hands. You know, hands can strangle people physically weaker than the owner of the hands. Should we make it illegal for strong people to keep their hands?
If anything external to the murder's mind would have helped, it would have been these girls being trained in firearms and keeping concealed handguns.
Everything else is just an absurd and scientifically debunkable attempt to blame external social structures for what is ultimately the choices of a very evil man, influenced by a very evil ideology that he chose not to question.
Posted by: hope_and_justice at January 8, 2008 11:17 AM
Whoa! Did you read the link from Aunt Bea posted yesterday at 11:09am? Check it our again.
http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/01/exclusive_-_aun.html#comments
Amina and Sara's aunt says that their brother lied and lured them back to the house and that they were both dead about an hour later. Will that piece of garbage, named Islam, be prosecuted for the murders of his sister's? The aunt also says that Amina and Sarah both told their mom that if their dad killed them, they did not want a Muslim funeral. These girls knew he was going to do it and then their brother tricked them into coming back to the house so he could go through with it. How terrified must they have been in the moments before their deaths, realizing that they had been tricked by their brother and their dad? Those two guys can go straight to hell.
Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at January 8, 2008 10:12 PM
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