Jihad Watch: "I don’t recognise this state and law, but only Allah the supreme"

January 17, 2008

"I don’t recognise this state and law, but only Allah the supreme"

"This isn’t an Islamic problem. This is a jihadist problem," said Mike Huckabee recently. Rudolph Giuliani spoke of “the way they’ve perverted their religion into a hatred of us.” In that, both men are reflecting the conventional wisdom -- conventional wisdom which, if you dare to transgress, you become a pariah. Everyone, you see, knows that whatever it is we're facing around the world today, it has nothing to do with Islam. If you don't see that, you're just a bigoted "Islamophobe."

Fuad Hodzic, meanwhile, asks the court to pray, accuses his enemies of betraying Islam, and says, "I’m Allah’s slave." This may indeed be, as Giuliani asserts, a perversion of Islam, but its adherents claim to be the exponents of true, pure, real Islam -- as Hodzic clearly does here. Waving away the Islamic component of this appeal, as Huckabee, Giuliani, and pretty much everyone else does, only weakens our ability to counter this threat. For until some counter to this claim of Islamic purity is formulated -- by peaceful Muslims who dare to stand up for human rights, and more importantly by non-Muslims who dare to point out and oppose the ways in which Sharia denies those human rights -- this claim will continue to win recruits among Muslims. Merely asserting that it isn't Islamic, in the teeth of so much evidence, does nothing to stop that.

"Serbia: Wahabi terror suspect displays religious fervour in court," from AKI (thanks to all who sent this in):

Belgrade, 16 Jan. (AKI) – The trial of 15 members of radical Islamist Wahabi movement saw a rare display of religious fervour in a Belgrade court on Wednesday.
One of the accused, Fuad Hodzic, before entering a plea on charges of terrorism and illegal arms possession asked the court to bow and say a prayer before refuting charges against him. He said the indictment was a charade.

The group members are alleged to have operated a terrorist training camp in the Ninaja mountain in southwest Sandzak region and have been charged with planning terrorist attacks on the American embassy in Belgrade, a theatre and a hotel in Serbian capital.

They are also alleged to have planned an attack on a police station in Novi Pazar, Sandzak's commercial and administrative centre.

According to the indictment, they also planned the murder of Sandzak mufti Muarem Zukorlic whom they accused of betraying Islam and of being an American spy.

“We were planning no terrorist attacks, nor the murder of the mufti Muamer Zukorlic,” Hodzic told the court.

“I swear to Allah, there are boys here who wouldn’t even know how to return home from here, let alone finding the American embassy,” he said.

He said the group moved to the mountain hideout because Zukorlic banned them from Novi Pazar mosque. He said Zukorlic was a “Jewish and American spy” who was hiding behind Islam.

According to the indictment, Hodzic told the police who arrested him in March last year: “You are my enemy and I don’t recognise this state and law, but only Allah the supreme.

"For you, I’m Bin Laden, your deadly enemy,” he told police. “I’m Allah’s slave, and you are the slave to money and your job.”...

Posted by Robert at January 17, 2008 7:12 AM
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(Note: Comments on articles are unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer. Comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying may be summarily deleted. However, the fact that particular comments remain on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Robert Spencer of the views expressed therein.)

"For you, I’m Bin Laden, your deadly enemy,” he told police. “I’m Allah’s slave, and you are the slave to money and your job.”...

Muslims don't like jobs

Posted by: Sneakyzionistcrusader

at January 17, 2008 8:26 AM

I don't know if Jobs made the list, but this is a growing document of what offends muslims...employment should be added to the list

http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Things-That-Offend-Muslims.htm

The worst offender? Pokeyman !

Posted by: Sneakyzionistcrusader

at January 17, 2008 8:29 AM

A Christian is a child of God.
A muslim is a slave of allah.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi

at January 17, 2008 8:38 AM

""This isn’t an Islamic problem. This is a jihadist problem," said Mike Huckabee recently."

....and jihadists generally are......?...

...if it looks like a pile of dog squeeze, smells like a pile of dog squeeze and feels like a pile of dog squeeze....guess what....it probably is.....

Posted by: exsgtbrown

at January 17, 2008 8:38 AM

Huckabee may be ill-informed, a simpleton.

What's Giuliani's excuse?

Posted by: Hugh

at January 17, 2008 8:53 AM

I suggest that Huck and Rudolph read Blogging the Quran. For example...

"The next segment of Sura 2, verses 75-105, continues the Qur’an’s criticism of the Jews. When you read statements by Hamas leaders or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad about Israel, remember that they view Israel and Jews through a Qur’anic prism. They have learned, if they have studied the Qur’an at all, that the Jews are the most perverse and guilty – as well as the craftiest and most persistent – enemies of Allah, Muhammad and the Muslims"-Robert Spencer.

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/06/24/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-2-%e2%80%9cthe-cow%e2%80%9d-verses-75-140/

or....

"Ibn Kathir, following Ibn Ishaq, also recounts this incident (the ambush and theft of the products of a Quraysh caravan at Nakhla), which was a momentous one: good became identified with anything that redounded to the benefit of Muslims, and evil with anything that harmed them, without reference to any larger moral standard. Moral absolutes were swept aside in favor of the overarching principle of expediency. Sayyid Qutb explains that “Islam is a practical and realistic way of life which is not based on rigid idealistic dogma.” Islam “maintains its own high moral principles,” but only when “justice is established and wrongdoing is contained” — i.e., only when Islamic law rules a society — can “sanctities be protected and presevered.” So evidently they need not be before that point".-Paragraph 7

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/07/08/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-2-%e2%80%9cthe-cow%e2%80%9d-verses-211-221/

We must never forget that, unlike the other major religions of humans, Muslims do not believe in a universal "Golden Rule". Rather, to paraphrase Robert Spencer, "good is identified with anything that redounds to the benefit of Muslims, and evil with anything that harms them, without reference to any larger moral standard".

Posted by: Frank

at January 17, 2008 9:39 AM

Let us face it, Islam, all of Islam, is at war with the secular democracies. I put it this way because some of pseudo democracies are the very ones that are promoting terrorism. Why the secular democracies, because most are governed by laws based on the Judo-Christian concept of the free will of man, versus Allah’s slaves. So, I ask, why do the democracies stop pandering the Muslims and start taking corrective measures? There is little doubt that if the Western societies chose to confront Islam on Islam’s terms, the conflict would be over in a very short order.

Posted by: DeadRecknoning

at January 17, 2008 10:00 AM

Does Mr. Huckabee refer to the "greater" or "lesser" Jihad?

I have yet to see an example of the former and have seen all too many examples of the latter.

Posted by: tanstaafl

at January 17, 2008 10:14 AM

Remember there is A LOT of differences between the God of the Holy Bible and Allah of the Koran. Because the Bible has relationship with God in the form of sons and daugthers or children of God, thus the sucess of the Jewish/Christian west. The Allah of the Koran is more of a master/slave relationship. The former is built on piety or devotion reverance, the later on a severe fearfulness.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106

at January 17, 2008 10:46 AM

Deadreckoning said: So, I ask, why don't the democracies stop pandering to the Muslims and start taking corrective measures? There is little doubt that if the Western societies chose to confront Islam on Islam’s terms, the conflict would be over in a very short order.

I agree that it would be over in short order, but until we go back to fighting to win for our survival ala Germany/Japan in WWII and quit fighting to enforce peace ala the U.N., Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Kuwait, somalia etc. etc. etc., we will never win.

Unless you completely destroy the populations will to continue the fight, you cannot achieve peace. And when you do achieve victory and let the vanquished re-establish a government, you do not let them incorporate the reason for the war into their "new" constitution. In Germany and Japan, we told them what could and could not go into the constitution. And the primary "could not" was Naziism and Shintoism.Yet in Afghanistan and Iraq, we've allowed them to base their constitutions on Sharia which is what caused the problem in the first place.

This is why we haven't "won" in the past 60 years.

Posted by: walterc

at January 17, 2008 10:54 AM

“I’m Allah’s slave, and you are the slave to money and your job.”...
-- from the statement by the would-be Muslim Arab terrorist, doing Allah's work -- terrorizing and killing Infidels -- in Serbia

Yes, we Infidels, whether Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, or this or that, or nothing at all, so often find ourselves having to work. It's not always pleasant.

Would that we were free, like Fuad Hodzic, to be nothing but "Allah's slaves," and not have to have jobs, but could be full-time marchers fi sabil Allah, on the Path of Allah (the Path of Jihad), because we would be supported, directly or indirectly, by those same Infidels. Indirectly, when they buy, and do little or nothing to enable themselves to diminish their buying, of oil and gas that is virtually the sole source of wealth for the oil-rich Arabs. Or indirectly, by the fabulous additional sums transferred to Muslims from non-Muslims in the form of the foreign aid, to all those Muslim states and peoples -- in Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, in the "Palestinian"-occupied territories -- who do not happen to have the bonanza of that accident of geology that Saudi Arabia, the U.A.E., Kuwait, Qatar, and so on, uncaring (except in regards to supporting Muslims fighting against Infidels -- then weapons will be paid for, propaganda will be paid for, upkeep for the families of dead terrorists will be paid for), and determinedly unsharing of their unearned wealth with those fellow members of the Umma.

And to that trans-national steady transfer of wealth, some ten trillion dollars to Muslim members of OPEC since 1973 alone, one must add, as if that were not already enough, the hundreds of billions spent to make life "better" and to bring "democracy" to "ordinary moms and dads" (also sprach Bush) in the Middle East, has made it possible for the Saudis and other rich Arabs to pay for mosques, madrasas, small armies of Western hirelings (one of them, a former Republican member of Congress, has just been indicted, but thousands in the capitals of the West still openly ply their propagandistic trade), campaigns of Da'wa in prisons and among other, carefully-identified economically or socially marginal groups, and of course psychically-marginal individuals (the Lindhs and the Ridleys will always be with us).

So first add to those trillions in unmerited oil wealth those hundreds of billions in Infidel aid spent on saving Muslim peoples from their own failures, political, economic, social, intellectual, and moral, without ever inquiring into the source of those failures, which is Islam itself.

In Iraq (in that act of continued and colossal folly) more than a trillion dollars has been spent, not to reduce and divide the country, but to bring a unity that will never be attained, to bring a prosperity that supposedly will come from the tens of billions of American money handed out like confeeti, and in Afghanistan (ditto, though on a less colossal scale), and that aid to the lords of malevolent misrule in Egypt, in Jordan, and, most maddeningly and most offensively, to those local Arabs, the shock troops of the Lesser Jihad against Israel, who have been carefully renamed the "Palestinians," and about whom we have heard so very much, at the U.N., at the E.U., everywhere that the non-existent "international community" meets and greets, presented as the most victimized group of human beings in the history of the world, when in fact they are the permanent enemies of, deniers of the legal, moral and historic rights of those -the Jews -- who indeed are the most persecuted tribe in human history, for the "Palestinian national struggle" is a "struggle" to deny the possiblility of a secure and permanent existence to Israel, an Infidel nation-state and hence a permanent affront, that must be eliminated if Muslim Arabs are to rest easy (oh, they simply can't, simply can't despite the oil trillions, simply can't, despite the 22 members of the Arab League, and the 14 million square miles, until Israel is pressured further and the conditions created on the ground for the inexorable, later, final "solution" to the "problem of Israel" -- which means, elimination of that Infidel nation-state, and not the naive "two-state solution" of those who do not know, and do not care to find out, about the texts and tenets, of Islam.

And with those trans-national transfers of Infidel wealth -- trillions for the oil, hundreds of billions for the Jizyah-aid -- there is another transfer of wealth, this one taking place within the countries of Western Europe, where the welfare systems set up by Infidel taxpayers in the post-war period, and designed to pay for those fellow citizens who needed help, has now become very largely a program of wealth-transfer from the Infidel taxpayers to the Muslims who have learned quickly to fully exploit every conceivable benefit that the Infidel nation-states and their generous systems provide: free education, free medical care (at the Western, not the Muslim, level), free or subsidized housing, and so on. The fiddling goes on, in every way. And that leaves far less for the Infidel poor, the legitiimate poor. Muslim women rarely work: they are kept at home as breeders. And of course despite the official ban on polygamy, many Muslims ignore that ban,and there is not one, but more than one wife, and a dozen children, on the Infidel dole. The unemployment rate for Muslism is far beyond that for any other immigrant group, as is the rate of incarceration. The econonomic drain on Infidel states has yet to be discussed openly, but it is there for all to see, and many do see it. In England, it has not escapwed notice that the Hindus and Sikhs, or for that matter the Chinese, do not cost the state anything like what the Muslim immigrants do --what has not yet happened is a discussion of why that is so, and why it is so not only in Great Britain but in every European country.

So we have to be "slaves" to "our money and our job" and pay directly, or indirectly, for Fuad Hodzic, for all the fuad-hodzics, outside Europe, and deep inside that Europe whose legal and political instiutions, social arrangements and understandings, Infidel ways of life, these fuad-hodzics so deeply despise, and some of them, like him, act on it, and others merely support, or certainly do not denounce and work against, those active partipicants in violent Jihad. And their other activities suggest that while they do not parcitipate in active Jihad, they are participants in the other instruments of Jihad -- campaigns of Da'wa, deployment of the Money Weapon, and of course demographic conquest, that last of which they participate in, even unconsciously, merely by overbreeding, and helpo to swell Muslim ranks that, inexorably, will make, are making, the lives of non-Muslims in Europe more unpleasant, more expensive, and more physically dangerous, than they would otherwise be.

Posted by: Hugh

at January 17, 2008 10:58 AM

And let's not forget that chief ally of jihadis like Fuad Hodzic in the Balkans is - the USA.

Serbs were fighting these:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hYYbCq6tg5c

and got bombed by NATO - twice. Now the USA is chief force supporting Kosovo jihadis to create their own mafia-state in the heart of Europe.

When will this nonsense stop?

America? Truth? Democracy?

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia

at January 17, 2008 11:17 AM

Just imagine the look on Giuliani's face should an astute reporter ever ask him to explain, exactly, which tenets of Islam 'they've perverted', and how.

What, really, does he know of Qur'an, hadith, and sira? Does he know why the Saudis and other Muslim nations conduct punitive decapitations and amputations?

I once heard Huckabee refer to Allah as 'their god'.

How surprised would ol' Huck be, how surprised would Ma and Pa America be, to learn that, to Muslims, the god of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are one and the same?

His assertion that Allah is 'their god' demonstrates not a knowledge of Islam, but an ignorance of it, and of its followers.

I'm not sure what the curriculum at Ouachita Baptist University consists of, but it apparently does not include Islam 101.

Posted by: PRCS

at January 17, 2008 11:20 AM

Greetings,

I have been reading the site for some time now (over a year) without commenting. I wanted to see for myself if you all were really being fair-minded...

Would Huckabee have been more correct if he had said, "This isn't a Muslim problem generally as much as it is a jihadist problem specifically?"

ISTM that many of the articles here are asking questions that have every right to be asked (for better or for worse - whether I personally agree or not), but that many of the people commenting on the articles seem to see all Muslims in the worst possible light. That faithful Muslims are seconds away from strapping on dynamite vests, and the Muslims who aren't aren't faithful Muslims. That, for me, is a point FAR from being proved.

If I am called an idiot for seeing things this way... I think I will know what conclusion to draw about the people who post comments here.

On side note to the person called "ImNoDhimmi..."

You said:
A Christian is a child of God.
A muslim is a slave of allah.

Two points...

1. The words "Muslim" and "Allah" should be capitalized in the same manner as you capitalized "Christian" and "God."

2. If you check the Greek of the NT... in I Cor. 7:22 you'll notice that many English language translations of the verse use the word "slave" when referring to the relationship between Christ and the believer. The Greek word is "doulos..." look it up and see what it's primary meanings are. :)

Happy hunting!

IC XC
Cearnaigh

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 11:22 AM

"For you, I’m Bin Laden, your deadly enemy,” he told police. “I’m Allah’s slave, and you are the slave to money and your job.”

Hodzic said a policeman insulted him and asked what his wife was doing while he was hiding in the woods.

“I shivered and told him: ‘I’m Bin Laden and you are a rabbit, so don’t pretend to be a lion,” Hodzic said.

That is what all the sensitivity is getting us. They actually believe that they are the superior fighters.
Time to wake up, fight like there is a monster at the door. Politicians are not helping matters.

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 11:23 AM

"but that many of the people commenting on the articles seem to see all Muslims in the worst possible light. That faithful Muslims are seconds away from strapping on dynamite vests, and the Muslims who aren't aren't faithful Muslims."

Whose fault is that?

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 11:42 AM

"One of the accused, Fuad Hodzic, before entering a plea on charges of terrorism and illegal arms possession asked the court to bow and say a prayer before refuting charges against him."

...Request denied!....the charges are.......

Posted by: exsgtbrown

at January 17, 2008 11:46 AM

Cearnaigh,

This discussion is not about linguistics, but about practice. "Slave of God" in Bible has completely different meaning than "slave of Allag" in Islam. Read Galatians.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia

at January 17, 2008 11:48 AM

And Serbs have been told all over again, in millions of newspaper articles, filled with hate and contemt, that Balcan Moslems are not real Moslems but secularized and fighting for their national liberation (and new nations have been invented and discovered, those of "Bosnians" and "Kosovars"). And USA still insists on independant Kosovo and works on destruction of the Serbian state and nation that was its ally in two world wars.

It is nice that this article appears on Jihad Watch, but it would be even nicer if Kosovo , Bosnia and Serbia are covered on Jihad Watch not only on the ocasions when those allegedly secular Moslems openly condemn USA but also when their hater is directed "only" against Serbia, otherwise there is an impression that for Jihad Watch Balcan Jihadists are bad only when they threaten the USA, otherwise they are ignored, - this approach supports the current destruction of the Serbian state executed by and through USA and its ally EU.

Even though Jihad Watch has the focus on what is going on in USA , the "independant" "Bosnia" and "Kosova" deserve systematic, in-depth and permanent critical coverage, simply because they are USA creations and mirror the USA crime on the Serbian nation and state, a crime that is beyond forgiveness.

Posted by: Serbian girl

at January 17, 2008 11:49 AM

Greetings,

Elric66, you said:
"Whose fault is that?"

Let me guess every single Muslim slave of Allah...

Ugh... if this is your answer...

LazarOfSerbia, you said:
"This discussion is not about linguistics, but about practice. "Slave of God" in Bible has completely different meaning than "slave of Allag" in Islam. Read Galatians."

Yeah... ok... what are the differences? How do you know what they are?

IC XC
Cearnaigh

p.s.
What makes you think I haven't read Galatians?

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 11:53 AM

Huckabee may be ill-informed, a simpleton.

What's Giuliani's excuse?

Posted by: Hugh

Good question. Maybe it's his client list?

Posted by: PMK

at January 17, 2008 11:54 AM

Cearnaigh,

Is it our fault that Islam has such a poor reputation among non Muslims?

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 11:56 AM

moslem, allah
Christian, God

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 12:01 PM

For a discourse to have good rhetoric, it must have a solid lexical foundation.

The most important discourse on earth right now is around the Moderate Islam Delusion, also called the I Saw A Unicorn Delusion.

So let's define the word moderate for this context.

According to Mitt, Mike, George, Condi, O'Reilly, Glenn, and all the rest of them...

Moderation = mass murder (Qurayza)
Moderation = institutionaized pedophilia (Iran)
Moderation = sex slavery
Moderation = institutionalized misogyny
Moderation = theft, extortion, protection rackets
Moderation = no free speech murder (Abu, Asma)
Moderation = global Sharia

... and so on. These are the ideals worshipped by, er, moderate Moslems, who I guess are sorta like grayed out Unicorns, but anyway the ones on whom we're betting the world (willful ignorance).

Argument over.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

at January 17, 2008 12:01 PM

I will never put allah on the same level as God in my writings. They are NOT the same.

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 12:03 PM

By the way, Fuad Hodzic paraphrased the words of J.B., known as Tito, a Croatian Communist who terrorized Serbs for decades (and contributed to Moslem invasion of Kosovo by settling there numerous Albanians and forbidding the Serbs, expelled during the WWII to come back).

In a lawsuit before WWII (Communist party was illegal than) he said that he doesn´t recognise the state and the law, only the decisions of his communist party.

"Ne priznajem medutim burzoaski sud, jer se smatram odgovornim samo svojoj komunistickoj partiji." We were brainwashed at school with those words and how much dear J.B. suffered before WWII under the "Serbian imperialism" See an excellent article on overtly anti-Serbian platform of the communist party that ruled Yugoslavia here:

http://grayfalcon.blogspot.com/2007/12/manufacturing-guilt.html

The EU and USA took over this communist anti-Serbian discourse to the last bit.

Posted by: Serbian girl

at January 17, 2008 12:04 PM

I also use mOslem instead of mUslim because the sound of the pronunciation is closer to the true meaning of the word. Oppression.

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 12:05 PM

Greetings,

Like it or not Allah is a proper noun in the examples that I took exception to...

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 12:54 PM

ALLAH IS NOT THE GOD OF THE BIBLE:
http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_allah_not_God.html

"Muslims believe that there is no other God besides Allah and that he is the God of the universe. They claim that not only is he their God, but that he is the God of the Jews, the Christians and everyone else. When examining the profile of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and comparing it with Allah’s profile, there are a number of distinct differences between them that can only result in one conclusion: These profiles simply do not match! Allah is NOT the God of the Bible!

The Islamic faith, through the teachings of Muhammad, asserts that Allah is God and attempt to place him within the confines of the Holy Scriptures. When the Bible contradicts their teachings, they allege that it is flawed, has been tampered with, and has many errors. They further claim that the Koran, through the teachings of their prophet Muhammad, corrects them. However, it has already been established that Muhammad was both a false prophet and teacher. Therefore, Islam’s allegations are unsupported, baseless and without merit.

There are a number of major differences between the God of the Bible and Allah. This chapter will focus upon five reasons why they are not the same. According to the Holy Scriptures, the God of the Bible is the one true God while Allah is a false god."

(read it all on the link)

Posted by: champ

at January 17, 2008 1:06 PM

Cearnaigh,

Still waiting for my answer.

Is it non Muslims fault that Islam has such a bad reputation?

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 1:09 PM

The words "Muslim" and "Allah" should be capitalized in the same manner as you capitalized "Christian" and "God."

Cearnaigh,

Why waste everyone's time on trivialities? Why do you care what case people use? I was taught that, when referring to God, the personal pronoun should always be capitalized. (For instance: God showed His love.) That hardly ever happens, but it doesn't matter. There are more important things to worry about.

Posted by: PMK

at January 17, 2008 1:14 PM

Disrespecting Islam is a duty, not a pleasure. Well, it's fun too. If you guys wanna convey profound disrespect to Islam, then beat the Moslems down with words of their own creation, such as Koran, Mohammed, and Moslems.

Since Qur' an (koo-ahn) has become hip, the need for Koran has become paramount.

This is the same as when the Reverend Jesse Jackson commanded us to use African American and not Afro-American, why listen to the linguistic commands of Moslems any more than that of Reverend Jesse?

This is of course stated by me with full sensitivity to our Afro-American friends who recently became Moslems by converting to Islam.

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer

at January 17, 2008 1:16 PM

Elric66,

In answer to your question...

"Is it non Muslims fault that Islam has such a bad reputation?"

Maybe in some cases, yes...

I know what you want to hear is NO! The fault lies with Muslims... while I think we would agree that there is fault that lies with Muslims here... I think we would end up disagreeing since I don't believe that all of the fault lies with all Muslims.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 1:24 PM

Elric66,

In answer to your question...

"Is it non Muslims fault that Islam has such a bad reputation?"

Maybe in some cases, yes...

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 1:25 PM

So how is it partly our fault then?

We arent the ones that wrote the Qur'an or the hadiths.

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 1:27 PM

Elric66,

I don't know how you are using the word "our" here... you seem to be suggesting that I think that by "our" you mean every non-Muslim... I don't.

I *do* think that there are non-Muslims who speak as expert on Islam when they are not. I think that these people may also contribute (in some way) to the "bad reputation" of Muslims. I don't think that this is completely unreasonable. No one here has shown it to be so.

GENERAL COMMENT

ISTM that the people who have taken offense to my comments on the Bible and it's use of 'doulos' don't want to be confronted with inconvenient facts... if your study of Christianity is this superficial (and you seem to be coming from a Christian perspective)... I won't be regarding any of you as experts on Islam.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 1:32 PM

"I think that these people may also contribute (in some way) to the "bad reputation" of Muslims."

How so? More so than Muslims rioting over a friggin cartoon?

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 1:35 PM

Elric66,

You seem to be getting agitated...

You ask, "How so? More so than Muslims rioting over a friggin cartoon?"

By giving other non-Muslims who are also non-experts on Islam partially true impressions on the religion and it's followers. Not drawing distinctions, etc etc etc... that list could go on for some time.

That would, indeed, contribute to the problem.

More than Muslims rioting over cartoons? I don't know how we could quantify that, but, no, IMHO, probably not.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 1:38 PM

Cearnaigh,

No Im not aggitated, I enjoy debating Islamic apologists. :-)

All anyone has to do is read the Qur'an and hadiths. That will do enough damage to Islam's repuation.

No one has to lie or give half truths about Islam. Its all in there. Once they do, all the jihad around the world makes sense.

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 1:43 PM

Elric66,

You seem to be confused, friend....

You state:
"No Im not aggitated, I enjoy debating Islamic apologists."

You *seem* to have the idea that I am a Muslim, I am not. I am a Byzantine Catholic.

You write:
"All anyone has to do is read the Qur'an and hadiths. That will do enough damage to Islam's repuation."

I don't know about this statement...

All I was saying is that non-Muslims giving incorrect or incomplete information (with the intent of showing Islam to be terrible) would also contribute to Islam's bad reputation.

I can't see how what I say is not reasonable.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 1:54 PM

I never said you were Muslim, just an apologist for Islam. You dont have to be a Muslim to make excuses for Islam.

"All I was saying is that non-Muslims giving incorrect or incomplete information (with the intent of showing Islam to be terrible"

How can they do that when the Qur'an does it anyway? Its like trying to make water more wet.

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 1:57 PM

Then compare Galatians and Quran my brother in faith.

You say:
"All I was saying is that non-Muslims giving incorrect or incomplete information"

That is exactly what jihadists are doing deliberately, as very successful tactic in deceiving the west.

Islam IS terrible.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia

at January 17, 2008 2:00 PM

Cearnaigh ,
Do you believe that Israel has a right to their historical homeland?

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 2:07 PM

Elric66,

I said *seem* - you did see that right?

I hope your your expert exegesis of the Qur'an is better than your understanding of my comments. ;)

Where did I make an excuse for Islam?

I said that what non-Muslims "teach" to other non-Muslims about Islam may contribute to Islam's bad reputation. I think that this is reasonable. You have yet to show that it is not, and then you seem to try to paint me as a person who wants to defend the truth of Islam. If this be so... you have badly misunderstood me.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 2:10 PM

"I said that what non-Muslims "teach" to other non-Muslims about Islam may contribute to Islam's bad reputation."

Well give examples then

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 2:13 PM

Elric66,

So you don't think that what I say is even plausible...?? Wow...

Examples...

Here in the comments Sneakyzionistcrusader said: "Muslims don't like jobs."

If I were non-Muslim and stupid... I could take this to be a fact and use it to browbeat "lazy Muslims."

You can't see how this could happen?

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 2:21 PM

"You can't see how this could happen?"

No not really. The Qur'an calls for war with the non believers so one poster saying Muslims dont like jobs means nothing.

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 2:24 PM

Elric66,

Yeah... you don't seem to be reasonably addressing what I have had to say at all.

You position seems to be that no non-Muslim could ever give a false negative impression of Islam to another non-Muslim seems clearly false to me.

You seem to want to paint Islam as 100% evil and evil faithful Muslim as 100% evil. We disagree about these things even if we agree that Islam is not the true religion.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 2:28 PM

A note to Cearnaigh:

Thanks for the English lesson, but I NEVER capitalize allah, islam, mohammed or muslim.

Just a little quirk of mine. As Havoc said, we do it on purpose.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi

at January 17, 2008 2:28 PM

ImNoDhimmi,

You aren't going to thank me for the NT Greek lesson?!?! I am so offended... ;)

I am KIDDING.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 2:35 PM

"You seem to want to paint Islam as 100% evil and evil faithful Muslim as 100% evil. We disagree about these things even if we agree that Islam is not the true religion."

islam is an abomination on mankind and any muslim that does take the qur'an faithfully as well as the examples of mo-bomb-ed are evil. That doesnt make all muslims bad.

"You position seems to be that no non-Muslim could ever give a false negative impression of Islam to another non-Muslim seems clearly false to me."

Like I said, there is so much in the Qur'an and hadiths as well as all the islamic terrorism around today that nothing anyone says about islam thats false isnt going to make any impact in which we are contributing to islam's bad reputation.

It would be like saying a lie about Hitler would be contributing to his bad reputation.

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 2:36 PM

Elric66,

Hmmm...

"It would be like saying a lie about Hitler would be contributing to his bad reputation."

You see... I am a person concerned with TRUTH. I think that lying about Hitler's bad reputation WOULD contribute to it (I can't see how it would not) EVEN THOUGH Hitler was did such evil things.

I hope you continue to deny that I may have a point because you are concerned about debate points over truth... because it's beginning to come off that way to me.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 2:39 PM

Cearnaigh,

Think whatever you like. Im not going to accuse non Muslims for Islam's tarnished reputation. Islam brought it upon itself.

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 2:43 PM

Elric66,

People wonder why Mr. Spencer's ideas are derided by the popular media... I don't think it's so much because Mr. Spencer doesn't ask good questions based on what he has read, but... maybe because some of the people who comment here come off as unreasonable anti-Muslim bigots.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 2:46 PM

Cearnaigh,

Now you are blaming us because the MSM doesnt listen to Mr Spencer? LOL

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 2:49 PM

"....maybe because some of the people who comment here come off as unreasonable anti-Muslim bigots."

So what?

Better than being an unreasonable pro-muslim apologist!

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi

at January 17, 2008 2:51 PM

Elric66,

Well... since things in your mind seem to work as as black or white/all or nothing... I could see why you might perceive things that way.

There are NEVER EVER multiple reasons that contribute to anything... ugh...

That's reasonable!! Not!

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 2:52 PM

ImNoDhimmi ,

He doesnt seem to mind the bigoted Qur'an just anti-Muslim bigots.

Bigot : One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

Yep, that sums up Islam

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 2:57 PM

ImNoDhimmi,

I am not a apologist for Islam... nor do I know what "pro-Muslim" even means...

I am Christian. I don't regard Islam as the true religion, nor do I regard Muhammad as a Prophet of God. That DOES NOT MEAN that I think that Islam should be dealt with "by any means necessary" (like misinformation, lying, bigotry, etc)...

You seem to be saying those things are fine...

I guess we disagree.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 3:02 PM

Elric66,

I have no ideas where you get your ideas about me...

You wrote:
"He doesnt seem to mind the bigoted Qur'an just anti-Muslim bigots."

I don't know where I even hinted such a thing...

You don't seem to be a very reasonable person.

Any argument is good as long as it attacks Islam... that seems to be your approach - whether the argument is true or not seems to be secondary to you.

Oh well...

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 3:06 PM

Cearnaigh,

How would you deal with Islam?

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 3:09 PM

Cearnaigh:
"That DOES NOT MEAN that I think that Islam should be dealt with "by any means necessary" (like misinformation, lying, bigotry, etc)..."

Ok, then show me one single "misinformation", "lie", "bigotry" or "etc" on this site or in Robert Spencer's books?

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia

at January 17, 2008 3:13 PM

Elric66,

You asked me how I would deal with Islam? I suppose I would first admit that I have a great deal to learn about Islam... I know very little about it from historically, textually... at least from scholarly sources.

I am skeptical of all non-Christian religions, as I am a Christian. I think they are all a mixture of truth and error.

I think that it is obvious that ***some*** Muslims are very violent against non-Muslims even when the non-Muslims are not attacking said Muslims. Why? I am not altogether certain of the why... there seems to be that these Muslims understand their religion to demand certain violent behavior of them. Not all Muslims think this... I don't know why... I don't think myself an expert on these matters to conclude which person is understanding the religion correctly.

I regard the jihadists as dangerous zealots with a dangerous understanding of their religion.

I don't know what the very best way to deal with this problem is...

I just don't think that being unreasonable and untruthful as means to an end (the end being the destruction of Islam and all Muslims, for example) is the right way to go about it...

Some people here seem to disagree with me on this point.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 3:19 PM

"I would first admit that I have a great deal to learn about Islam... I know very little about it from historically, textually... at least from scholarly sources."

Thats where you need to start. Once you really understand Islam, it will change your entire outlook.

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 3:22 PM

LazarOfSerbia,

Have you been reading my posts? Is English your 2nd language? Just wondering because...

I have not said ANYTHING (read: not one thing) negative about Robert Spencer nor his books... ISTM that I have said almost the opposite, but... sheesh.

ISTM there is a difference between what Robert Spencer says, writes, his tactics, etc... and the comments on the postings on this site... that's been my point from the beginning.

IC XC

p.s.
I own several Spencer books, btw...

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 3:24 PM

Elric66,

I will never think it will be beneficial to lie about Islam in order to defame it because the ends justify the means.

I think Robert Spencer would agree with me.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 3:27 PM

Cearnaigh,

I must address some of your words from your initial posting.

You wrote:
"Would Huckabee have been more correct if he had said, "This isn't a Muslim problem generally as much as it is a jihadist problem specifically?""

In short, no. This is a common tactic, to substitute "Muslim" for "Islam". While they are no doubt related, they are not the same. It is entirely plausible to condemn Islam in totality for its divine mandates against all other-faiths and still not even come close to condemning all Muslims.

It is doubtful you have been reading for over a year, for you missed a fundamental point. While there may very well be the "moderate" Muslim, there is no such thing as "moderate" Islam.

You wrote:
"That faithful Muslims are seconds away from strapping on dynamite vests, and the Muslims who aren't aren't faithful Muslims. That, for me, is a point FAR from being proved."

That position has rarely if ever been taken here by a commenter at this site.

You wrote:
"If I am called an idiot for seeing things this way... I think I will know what conclusion to draw about the people who post comments here."

Not an idiot, simply ill-informed or willfully disingenuous. Making a statement that opinions which differ from yours does not validate your position.

you wrote:
A Christian is a child of God.
A muslim is a slave of allah.
"Two points...
1. The words "Muslim" and "Allah" should be capitalized in the same manner as you capitalized "Christian" and "God.""

This statement belies an agenda. It certainly was not presented as a helpful corrective measure. no one who has seriously "read this site for over a year" and uinderstand the content provided here, would chose this as the first example to sound-off on.

You are fully aware of the reason behind the "mistake". It is also apparent that you took offense to it.

Posted by: awake

at January 17, 2008 3:32 PM

I will never think it will be beneficial to lie about Islam in order to defame it because the ends justify the means.

Posted by: Cearnaigh at January 17, 2008 3:27 PM

And what "lie" would that be that you are concerned has been put forth here?

Posted by: awake

at January 17, 2008 3:39 PM

awake,

Very well put.

Posted by: Elric66

at January 17, 2008 3:39 PM

"People wonder why Mr. Spencer's ideas are derided by the popular media....."

...Mr Spencers ideas are solely his, and he is respected by the media....he makes no claim to the ideas of bloggers...his ideas are often derided by the dhimmis in the press corp and other self proclaimed Islamic authorities (such as D'Nesh D'Sousa or Ibrihim Hooper or even Adam Ghadann....all have posted here....)

....I find Mr Spencer to be truthful and dedicated to revealing the truth about Islam and about the Islamic plans for the future....

....He does not make up stories of Muslim activities...he reports facts...The Muslims provide the acts that are reported on...

...you just can't make this stuff up....

Posted by: exsgtbrown

at January 17, 2008 3:39 PM

Ladies and gentlemen

Whoever and whatever 'cearnaigh' is, they have expertly hijacked this thread.

The best thing to do is go right back on topic regardless.

The subject under discussion is a group of Muslims, within the sovereign state of Serbia, one of whom, who for avowed religious reasons - due to his group belonging to what one might call a 'revivalist' 'let's get back to that good old-time religion' strain of Islam - has, in the midst of a Serbian court, openly declared his contempt for the state of Serbia and for its laws.

Let's all think about that for awhile.

And let's compare Mr Hodzic's explicit statement with some of the other data points we have - for example, certain imams who in Australia, and elsewhere, have told their flocks to practise tax evasion rather than pay money to that illegitimate Infidel authority; the would-be jihad raiders who have initially brought themselves to the attention of the police by various forms of vulgar lawbreaking ranging from the petty (traffic violations) to the spectacular (armed robbery of gas stations).

And let's think about this passage from a Muslim 'expanded translation' of the Quran:
Noble Qur’an 2:190 Footnote:
“Jihad is holy fighting in Allah’s Cause with full force of numbers and weaponry. It is given the utmost importance in Islam and is one of its pillars. By Jihad Islam is established, Allah’s Word is made superior (which means only Allah has the right to be worshiped), and Islam is propagated.

"By abandoning Jihad Islam is destroyed and Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honor is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish.

"Jihad is an obligatory duty in Islam on every Muslim. He who tries to escape from this duty, or does not fulfill this duty, dies as a hypocrite.”

Note that line that 'by abandoning Jihad...Muslims fall into an inferior position...their rule and authority vanish".

This, of course, carries the obvious implication that Muslims take up jihad in order to obtain a superior position, and in order to obtain/ maintain 'rule and authority'.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy

at January 17, 2008 3:40 PM

Cearnaigh

- "Have you been reading my posts?"

No. You are writing nonsense and I have business to do.

- "Is English your 2nd language?"

No. It's my 3rd language after Serbian and Russian.

Comments here on JW are very kind compared to the evil ideology we are talking about.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia

at January 17, 2008 3:48 PM

I capitalize. I speak and write English, and proper names and places are capitalized, even if I don't particularly like the person or place I'm talking about: Department of Motor Vehicles. Jimmy Carter. And so on.

Besides, you want your presentation to be such that it convinces as many people of goodwill as possible. The lower-case thing puts people off, just as many of us see the use of "xtian" for "Christian" as something meant only to provoke and annoy. And in both cases, one runs the risk of being branded as immature or subliterate (and even if you don't care about that, chances are you do want to be taken seriously). In any case, it's not a good yardstick by which to measure counter-jihad fervor.

If one is that eager to make waves, simply telling the truth about jihad and its basis in Islamic texts and teachings will do that, and it's the most productive track. And be accurate, calm, and persistent.

Now, enough about capitalization. Let's get back on topic.

Posted by: MarisolJW

at January 17, 2008 4:17 PM

"“I swear to Allah, there are boys here who wouldn’t even know how to return home from here, let alone finding the American embassy,” he said.

....who said there is no comedy in Islam....

Posted by: exsgtbrown

at January 17, 2008 4:23 PM

And Cearnigh-- that's far too many posts for one person on a single thread. Please refrain from over-posting, especially off-topic.

Marisol Seibold
Jihad Watch News Editor

Posted by: MarisolJW

at January 17, 2008 4:38 PM

Hi, I've been a JW reader for the past few years & for the last hour or so have been trying to register with TypeKey in order to post here.

This "Cearnaigh" is most definitely a time waster & a troll. A while past I signed an on-line petition in support of Geert Wilders. I used my own name which is Irish. I'm not sure if this is coincidence or not but "Cearnaigh" is using the second element of my surname. Aside from being grammatically incorrect, it is annoying that a provocateur should use my name, especially in this forum. Just ignore him, her or it.

I have contacted the JW administration already with a message to this effect.

All the best, Ua Cearnaigh

Posted by: Fionnbarra

at January 17, 2008 4:45 PM

DeadRecknoning what a brilliant idea, then go ahead and take 'corrective measures',lets see what the world will be like then. Drop a few nukes mate,that might cause the muslims to bow down in submission to your western values.

In all honesty this website is really full of islamophobes who post comments on this website using Islamic words to make themselves look like experts on the religion. Not one person on here has come up with a post- infact let me rephrase that; a sentence to make me think 'hmm thats a good argument.'
Some of you claim that your hatred is only reserved for those who 'hijack' the religion i.e. terrorists. Nonsense!! Let's not beat about the bush, you hate Islam, which is fine, not a problem at all. But this has me thinking; if you hate Islam, which obviously you do by coming on this ludicrous website, what makes you different to the people who are the target of your abuse, who have every right defend their religion? You say muslims get 'touchy' when their religion or their lifestyle comes under scrutiny. So what brings you all to this website? You are here to vent your anger and hatred of Islam and let it all out. How is that different to Fuad Hodzic?
Muslims are the enemies of the west. The media constantly attacks it and focuses on nothing but the negative stories, which do happen, we are only human. After awhile of being force-fed trash, you'll start thinking trash is the only thing out there.
The one thing that suprises me the most is the fact you blindly follow and believe whatever you hear. That is a characteristic that is rampant in today's world. If Bush says there are WMD's in Iraq, then that means they have to be there, cause he wouldn't lie to his people. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said relating to the signs of Judgement Day: Trustworthiness will be lost, i.e. when authority is given to those who do not deserve it. In no way is Bush trustworthy neither did he deserve to come into power.
I live in Europe and have done so for 16 years I have never come into any problems with a non-muslim because of his religion or his background. So no i refute your claim; muslims have not made it hell for the native europeans, its the media and those in power that have made the people think Islam is the enemy. The media is such a powerful force. They can manipulate anything they deem fit. As a result you have lost all ability with which to reason. Whatever you read and hear must be true. I mean why make those cartoons? If you know people are going to be offended, why do it? It was obviously a calculated attack which got the exact response it desired. Muslims get angry after the religion is mocked in the way that it was, and the media leaps at the opportunity to highlight the protests. 'Look at the muslims! they are such backward people that they can't accept a society which practices free speech.' If the same media were to attack Judaism or Christianity or Hinduism,in the same disgraceful manner they attacked Islam, the world would be uproar.

In France, muslim girls now have to abandon their hijab- which is the head-covering to you experts- for them to be allowed in schools and Universities! Why not order Sikhs to take off their turbans? Isn't that the same thing?
All around Europe Islamophobia has gone to new lengths. Politicians are now national heroes when they 'stand up to Islam and condemn muslims'. They,just like you, claim Islam is on a mission to control the world and impose Sharia law wherever they go. Where did you hear that exactly? Oh thats it the media. What do you experts know about Sharia? Is it a crime that a woman is entitled to similar rights if not more than her husband? Or is it the tax system that you have been using for a millennium? Must be the part about breaking treaties with those who breach them. Hmm could be the part about family and how ensuring family ties are not broken is paramount to a muslim.

You are im sure like the rest of the western world against mosques being built on your lands. Why? I've gone to mosques in this country for many years if the media claim hatred is spread in mosques then I call it nonsense. But thats just a foil for the real truth. The ouright hatred of Islam. You don't want mosques on your lands then say so.

The media has all turned you into paranoid xenophobics at least in Europe. Whereas in America you have no idea what your talking about. Romney says I want to defeat 'Global Jihad'. Which is what?

Communism was once a threat to the west, but for what reason? Islam is the new 'so-called' threat. In the same way communism was indicted as the 'evil ideology' Islam has replaced it. You believed all those stories about communism without questioning them, I doubt this phase- which will be far longer- will be any different for you.
A lot of you need to take more care with what you write as your beginning to sound like hypocryts.

Finally if you were to look through the history books, it is infact Christian nations which have been the aggressors. Colonialism and so on. Once you ruled over these lands what did you do? You spread Christianity. Therefore you converted many nations by force. When did a muslim nation ever attack a foreign land because they had a leader who did not observe Sharia or Islam?
But I have no hatred for Christian nations or any religion or race, why can't you do the same with Islam?
Paranoid xenophobes, with a strong hint of Islamophobia. Quite a mix.

Posted by: thesaracen

at January 17, 2008 5:05 PM

MarisolJW,

I am sorry for over-posting on this thread... I didn't know there was a limit. I was replying to my responses.

A "Fionnbarra" a chara,

I was unaware that Cearnaigh was "grammatically incorrect." I have a right to use "Cearnaigh" as much as you do, I think (Kearney).

I wasn't trying to condemn JW as much as elevate the level of discourse... "Islam sucks" and "faithful Muslims are either terrorists or dumb" (which is, indeed, the impression I am getting from some of the comments) followed by cheers doesn't seem to do it for me, I guess.

If this is too much dominating of this thread... I would be fine taking it somewhere else.

IC XC

Posted by: Cearnaigh

at January 17, 2008 6:01 PM

thesaracen,

The media? The same media thats too afraid to say the words muslim and terrorism in the same sentence? That media? What planet do you live on?

You sound like a "moderate muslim". Do all moderate muslims blame everybody else for their woes too? Why don't you do something constructive and convince your "brothers" and "sisters" to stop blowing everybody and everything up. Can you do that? No? Why not? Because it's obligatory for every muslim to engage in jihad?

Posted by: mrockroll1969

at January 17, 2008 6:05 PM

OK saracen,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5BPVF1C5LE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaqUIdrifRA

Wherever do we get these ideas that islam wants to dominate?
/

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 6:47 PM

moslem, allah
Christian, God

Posted by: interestinconundrum

Amen.

Posted by: Abscedere

at January 17, 2008 7:17 PM

“I wasn't trying to condemn JW as much as elevate the level of discourse...”

You mean like,

“Is English your 2nd language? Just wondering because...”

Very elevated!

Posted by: patagonianplato

at January 17, 2008 7:19 PM

Thesarace says:

"You [are, I'm sure,] like the rest of the western world against mosques being built on your lands."

I'll answer that question - YES!

And why, might you ask? As someone else here once said, quite succinctly and accurately:

My disrespect for Islam is in direct proportion to the number of churches (and synagogues and temples) in "Saudi" Arabia.

You Europeans have your own problems. We have ours. But we're working on ours (to see the truth).

And to the question "When did a muslim nation ever attack a foreign land because they had a leader who did not observe Sharia or Islam?"

How about those little dust ups in 1948, 1967, and 1973? Does "Team Islam" want to go to Round 4?

Just wondering....

Posted by: boneshack

at January 17, 2008 7:19 PM

Cearnaigh isn't even a muslim and he is not even defending Islam yet you treat him with disrespect. This backs up my claim that you hate Islam and I can safely not one of you knows a thing about Islam. Anyone one who defends it on this website is a 'troll'.Im not an expert on my religion yet I can debate with the best amongst you. But you don't want that so send the heretic robert Spencer an e-mail and have me banned.

dumbledoresarmy -you didn't answer those questions about the bible I posed you. You're very sneaky but I've tracked you down. So im challenging you to refute the claims I made against the bible since you're one aim is to discredit the Qu'ran.
You claimed muslim woman were treated badly on the order of the Qu'ran. You couldn't back up your claims after I used the Quran and the same verse to destroy your lies.
You're a dumb clown dumbledoresarmy. You're telling people to stay on topic and you're talking rubbish about the Qu'ran. What has that got to do with Fuad Hodzic.
As for the story about an Imam instructing people to evade to tax in Australia. What utter nonsense. There is no way he would be an Imam in the first place if he's telling muslims to disobey laws in a land that is not their own. As long as the laws do not break the commandments of our religion i.e. don't wear a hijab then we must abide by them. Muslims at the end of the day have to be peaceful. Then you ramble on about Jihad so let me give you a break down of what Jihad is.
What im doing now is Jihad. I have not blown myself up or harmed anyone. But I am defending Islam from your lies. Thats a form of Jihad. Another form is to defend your family and your land. Why is that so evil. Wouldn't you defend your land and your family? Another form is to aid any person or nation- regardless of whether they are muslim or not- against oppression. Jihad is a way for us to maintain authority and superiority?? Then why are we not ruling the world? What bollocks. Jihad is not there so that we can go around attacking nations for no reason at all my freind.
Some people have gone to lengths that transgress Islam but I can't judge them as God is the only judge.
If this man Fuad Hodzic was anything other than a muslim, you would call him a hero. You think justice would be served in Serbia?
I have no idea what Hodzic committed, but as for his contempt for a court that is almost certain to convict him because he's a muslim, I call him a hero for showing contempt.

'divine mandates against all other-faiths'
Jews are condemned in the gospel of Luke you hypocryts.

Elric66- Once you really understand Islam, it will change your entire outlook.

You talk so much Bull. You probably read a piece in some newspaper or watched one of those mad news stations and you consider yourself an expert. Look at you talk like your a scholar. I know more about your own religion than you ever will. Read the Qu'ran you bigot. You've never even opened the Quran and ou talk like you know everythings thats in it.

'Think whatever you like. Im not going to accuse non Muslims for Islam's tarnished reputation. Islam brought it upon itself.'
You think muslims care what you think? We will try and reason with you to stop your obvious ignorance but if that fails,then who cares what you think.

LazarOfSerbia- Ok, then show me one single "misinformation", "lie", "bigotry" or "etc" on this site or in Robert Spencer's books?
What a clown, it's all around you dumb fool.

'islam is an abomination on mankind and any muslim that does take the qur'an faithfully as well as the examples of mo-bomb-ed are evil. That doesnt make all muslims bad.'
That's bigotry, written by the same clown that gave a definition of what bigotry is and attirbuted it to Islam.

ImNoDhimmi
'I NEVER capitalize allah, islam, mohammed or muslim'.
What a contribution to JW. Another Bigot. You getting the idea now LazarOfSerbia.

champ-you better have a good answer when you are brought before god to explain what you wrote. Total nonsense. You've just written four paragraphs of speculation, not one line which looks anything like a proper argument, and you give me some website that does exactly the same thing that you did. Have you seen God? Do you know what he looks like?

Errm yeah ok. This is all making sense to me now.

interestinconundrum said:
Time to wake up, fight like there is a monster at the door. Politicians are not helping matters. Now thats exactly the same thing you are all accusing muslims of. LOOK AT WHAT THIS GUY IS SAYING!!!

Exodus 35:2 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
If I were you I'd never work on a Sunday out of fear.
I can't see how everyone on this website sees this close bond between Christians and Jews when historically you hate each other. The Gospels of Luke and Matthew both blame the Jews for Jesus' cruixificion. But in todays PC world biblical scholars are challenging both books and discrediting them on a technicality. 'It wasn't all jews that led to Jesus' death', and we apologise to our Jewish brethren for appearing anti-semitic.

Hugh- Go to hospitals, get a solicitor, check your school, check the transport system, go to the airport. Are you telling me you won't find a muslim working at these places despite the discrimination he/she had to overcome?
Muslim immigrants have not only helped the economy but they also help you because without them you will have a lackof nurses,doctors, teachers- a shortage of skilled people basically. Don't forget the massive amount of help they gave especially to Britain after the war. They didn't just come over and sit on their arses. They have contributed to your society. Your just jealous of the success that they have had in integrating in your society and not being intimidated by the decades of abuse they have encountered. They are still there and still contributing. Too add to your ridiculous post, you're claiming Isreal is a victim of the Arab League. Isreal is the biggest beneficiary of aid in the world. Money, weapons, expertise everything is given to it so it can round up Palestinians into refugee camps in their own lands. They are not victim- far from it. Trust me the muslims in Europe face a much more unpleasant time right now. Every terrorist attack has repurcussions for them to a far greater degree than you'll ever come across.

to make life "better" and to bring "democracy" to "ordinary moms and dads" (also sprach Bush) in the Middle East, has made it possible for the Saudis and other rich Arabs to pay for mosques, madrasa'.... errm says who and I think their oil made them rich not democracy. Did the people of the middle east ask for democracy or was it imposed on them?

Rather, to paraphrase Robert Spencer, "good is identified with anything that redounds to the benefit of Muslims, and evil with anything that harms them, without reference to any larger moral standard".
I can't see you're point. You're mentioning something that any human would want. Do you want harm to come to you? I doubt it.

mrockroll1969- I live on earth mate. Fox news never shies away from defaming Islam. They were the media last time I checked. They are not afraid at all because I study the media and I see it everyday. If you are correct then rightly so. They tarnish Islam by saying we are terrorits, they should be weary before they use the two terms together. Suicide bombers cannot be judged by me.I don't agree with it but it's not my place to condemn people, unlike you. And suicide bombing is not jihad or Islam. Anything else???

interestinconundrum- you got the video of three guys who are doing a noble cause no doubt. They haven't been violent or spread hatred. How does that back up your point? a few placards represents the beliefs of more than a billion people?

get out of Afghanistan get out of Iraq? As for the placards of beheadings and massacres. They are only placards. US forces literally massacre innocent civilians in Iraq.
Cearnaigh isn't even a muslim and he is not even defending Islam yet you treat him with disrespect. This backs up my claim that you hate Islam and I can safely not one of you knows a thing about Islam. Anyone one who defends it on this website is a 'troll'.Im not an expert on my religion yet I can debate with the best amongst you. But you don't want that so send the heretic robert Spencer an e-mail and have me banned.

'divine mandates against all other-faiths'
Jews are condemned in the gospel of Luke you hypocryts.

Elric66- Once you really understand Islam, it will change your entire outlook.

LazarOfSerbia- Ok, then show me one single "misinformation", "lie", "bigotry" or "etc" on this site or in Robert Spencer's books?
What a clown, it's all around you dumb fool.

ImNoDhimmi
'I NEVER capitalize allah, islam, mohammed or muslim'.
What a contribution to JW. Another Bigot. You getting the idea now LazarOfSerbia.

Errm yeah ok. This is all making sense to me now.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ttTayJRsmWU

This video shows a US air force pilot taking out a group of 30-50 iraqi civilians who are fleeing from a gun battle in their neighbourhood. The pilot said to command control what should I do. Within a split second CC ordered him to take out the civilians. They are civilians by the way. Is that not a massacre? And's just one of many that have been reported so don't show me these videos like you got a point. They are a drop in the ocean compared to the coalition's antics in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Posted by: thesaracen

at January 17, 2008 7:44 PM

thesaracen:

Do you feel better, now?

Posted by: Abscedere

at January 17, 2008 7:49 PM

Posted by: thesaracen

at January 17, 2008 7:53 PM

thesaracen,

"I don't agree with it (suicide boming) but it's not my place to condemn people, unlike you. And suicide bombing is not jihad or Islam. Anything else???"

Well you and your "moderate" friends better start condemning those suicide bombers, because, if you don't, when the shit hits the fan (and it will), we won't be trying to distinguish between "moderate" or "extremist" muslims.

And as for suicide killing in the quaran, check out 9:111

Posted by: mrockroll1969

at January 17, 2008 8:01 PM

What an idiot - doesn't even know how to use cut an paste!

That whole rant was filled with repetitions, and a whole lot of non-answers.

I love his single theme that not one the single of us knows anything about Islam.

I guess that Bachelor of Science degree in READING means nothing these days.

Jeez, Louise...

Posted by: boneshack

at January 17, 2008 8:04 PM

And as for our military hitting civilians, we wouldn't have to if your "brave" moslem "warriors" would stop hiding behind women and children.

And don't give that BS how islam is always being sooo opressed. Out of all the battles mohemed fought, only one of them was defensive. Look at all the countries moslems took over so far; Look at all of the people who died from moslem invasions.

Posted by: mrockroll1969

at January 17, 2008 8:07 PM

mrockroll1969- I don't care if you don't distinguish between a moderate and an extremist because there are no such things. I am a muslim.

Surah At-tawbah (9:111) does not say commit suicide. Fighting and dying in god's cause is not suicide. They are martyrs not people who have committed suicide. Come to think of it martys are held in high-esteem in Christanity and in most religions so what you talking about?

Posted by: thesaracen

at January 17, 2008 8:08 PM

Do you even know what a mrtyr is? It is NOT somebody who kills people.

A martyr is someone who would die without renouncing their faith.

A martyr has NOTHING to do with killing people.

Posted by: mrockroll1969

at January 17, 2008 8:12 PM

"One of the accused, Fuad Hodzic, before entering a plea on charges of terrorism and illegal arms possession asked the court to bow and say a prayer before refuting charges against him. He said the indictment was a charade."

Are we certain that he wanted the entire court to bow down and pray, or might he have asked for permission for himself to pray? Could this be bad phrasing by the reporter?

I'm just thinking about the way the media can confuse things (such as the difference between "renounce" and "denounce").

Posted by: Abscedere

at January 17, 2008 8:13 PM

9:111 says that it's o.k to slay and BE SLAIN for the jihad cause. That it suicide killing.

Posted by: mrockroll1969

at January 17, 2008 8:14 PM

TheSaracen says:

boneshack 1948, 1967, and 1973- unlike the rest of you're buddies I won't pretend to be a scholar. So bring it on what happened in these dates that you have mentioned? Can't be the Isreali wars with the Arab nations could it?
--------------------------------------------
Well, duh, yeah, the ARAB aggressions against Israel.

Here's an idea: Why don't you use that Western technology in front of you to LEARN how the Egyptians, Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, and Iraqis took it up themselves, and three separate occasions, to "rectify" UN Resolution 181.

If, Sir, you deny these facts, then you, Sir, ARE a true blue Muslim.

May the True God (not Allah) help you.

Posted by: boneshack

at January 17, 2008 8:17 PM

To borrow a moslem trick, "fighting" doesn't necessarily mean physical violence. It can mean standing our ground against the creeping sharia that is occurring all our the world. It can mean fighting by legislation. We have a right to defend our Western way of life, even if you find it haram.

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 8:21 PM

Thesaracen:

You know what? I ABROGATE my last statement above.

You are not a TRUE Muslim. In fact, I think you are Adam Garbagecan, or maybe his clone. True Arabs acknowledge that they got the sh*t kicked out out them in '48, '67, and '73. And by whom? The Israelis.

And I asked you before: Is "Team Islam" prepared and ready for Round 4 of this A$$ Kicking contest?

Slink back into your hole.

Posted by: boneshack

at January 17, 2008 8:26 PM

Qur'an:2:193 "Fight them until there is no more Fitnah and religion is only for Allah. But if they cease/desist, let there be no hostility except against infidel disbelievers."

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 8:27 PM

Thesaracen:

You know what? I ABROGATE my last statement above.

And I asked you before: Is "Team Islam" prepared and ready for Round 4 of this A$$ Kicking contest?

Slink back into your hole.

Posted by: boneshack

at January 17, 2008 8:34 PM

Thesaracen:

You know what? I ABROGATE my last statement above.

And I asked you before: Is "Team Islam" prepared and ready for Round 4 of this A$$ Kicking contest?

Slink back into your hole.

Posted by: boneshack

at January 17, 2008 8:35 PM

boneshack Yes I made a mistake there funny how you should highlight that as its a sign you have nothing to say to my post. So hush your mouth your dimwit.

I love his single theme that not one the single of us knows anything about Islam. The thing is you don't!! you may think you do but it all comes from all those hours wasted reading Robert Spencer's bullshit.
Come up with a proper 'comeback' next time you clown other than a mistake I made on copy & paste.

Arab aggressions against Isreal??? So the Isrealis somehow crash landed in Palestine. How dumb are you? They were the aggressors not only did they force the palestinans out of lands they had owned for centuries; they killed for fun. You can't just come into a foreign land and claim it as your own. Western technology!!! ok then

mrockroll1969
And don't give that BS how islam is always being sooo opressed. Out of all the battles mohemed fought, only one of them was defensive. Look at all the countries moslems took over so far; Look at all of the people who died from moslem invasions. Isreal pays no attention to any UN resolution neither does America. If your point is all those Arab countries couldn't defeat Isreal then your forgetting the fact that Isreal had many allies.

Your beginning to sound desperate. Your clutching at straws because I never said we are oppressed even though we are. I can't remember the last time Muslims invaded a country oh and killed 70,000 innocent old, men, woman and children like those brave crusaders did. What did the Muslims do when they recaptured the Holy city?

9:111 says that it's o.k to slay and BE SLAIN for the jihad cause. That it suicide killing
No it isn't you illiterate. And to be a martyr you don't go an attack some innocent bystander who then kills you. You would consider many of the crusaders as martyrs, didn't they have to kill people?

Look at this, look at that.... where should I look?

Posted by: thesaracen

at January 17, 2008 8:36 PM

boneshack- getting hyped yeah, I will finish you off in any debate, whatever the topic. You're weak.
You're talking about Isreal. You can't finish off Iraq mate with the help of a dozen countries. Round 4 bring it on...

Posted by: thesaracen

at January 17, 2008 8:42 PM

WATCH THIS VIDEO.
What really happened in the middle east.
http://www.terrorismawareness.org/what-really-happened/

Posted by: interestinconundrum

at January 17, 2008 8:42 PM

Thesaracen banters (again):

boneshack Yes I made a mistake there funny how you should highlight that as its a sign you have nothing to say to my post. So hush your mouth your dimwit.

>> But, Sir, I did.

>> No, Sir, unlike you, I have gray matter between my ears. Commentaries by RS and HF comprise less than, say 5% of my time. I do read, however, the true sayings/profile/history of your "Perfect Man", straight from the horse's mouth: Buhkari, Tabari, Muslim, et al.

Come up with a proper 'comeback' next time you clown other than a mistake I made on copy & paste.

>> Let up, man, that was a joke. Oh, I remember, there is no fun in Islam.

>> The Israelies killed for SURVIVAL!

You can't just come into a foreign land and claim it as your own.

>> Really? Explain what Mohammed and all his successive minions have done for about roughly 1390 solar years?

Western technology!!! ok then

>> Wow, you just don't get it do you? Doesn't the Koran claim to be source of all knowledge?

I didn't think so.

Posted by: boneshack

at January 17, 2008 8:52 PM

Thesaracen:

"boneshack- getting hyped yeah, I will finish you off in any debate, whatever the topic. You're weak.
You're talking about Isreal. You can't finish off Iraq mate with the help of a dozen countries. Round 4 bring it on..."

You, Sir, are completely delusional, and beyond hope. I will NOT debate you here. Not because I am weak, but because decorum dictates that this thread not become a battleground.

You, Sir, have already lost the battle on many levels. You have proven time and time again that Islam poisons the mind.

Good night!

Posted by: boneshack