At what point to people like Mr. Carr see reports like these, and think to themselves, "Self, it's self-evident Islam isn't what I thought it was, and is, in fact, a violent political ideology that exploits the poor, women, and minorities where possible. I think I'll join those who love freedom and resist this scourge."?

In the belly of the green bird, ideed. What a shame.

That being said, I will NEVER submit. These assholes can take their supposed Religion of Peace, and I say that spitting the words out in disgust, and shove it.

Vivre la liberte!

Vivre la democratie!

Resistez a l'Islam!

Posted by: antishock8 at January 28, 2008 9:03 AM

”Peace will come to the Middle East when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us” – Golda Meir in statement to the National Press Club in Washington, D. C. in 1957.

Truer words were never spoken.

Posted by: descendantofacrusader at January 28, 2008 9:07 AM

As always, the PLO -- which is merely the earlier name of the "Palestinian Authority" -- has been there first. For there is hardly a method used by Al Qaeeda, in the Greater Jihad, that has not been used, before, by the shock troops of the Lesser Jihad (the one against Israel, not to be confused with the Lesser Jihad against Christians in Nigeria, or the one in the Sudan, or the Lesser Jihad against Hindus in Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indian-possessed parts of Kashmir, and India itself), or any of the other, subsets of the Greater Jihad that can be called Lesser Jihads.

For the "Palestinians" have been using women, young boys, even mental defectives, as their human deliverers of explosives, and when Al Qaeda, or the Taliban, employs such methods, in Iraq or Afghanistan or, soon, in countries that are seen as within the Lands of the Infidels (Bilad al-Kufr), they are merely following the methods first copyrighted by the Arab Muslim terrorists who function as part of the "Palestinian" movement.

Whether that group has a real or a phony name, whether it is called Hamas or Islamic Jihad (surely a redundancy), or the made-up "Black September" (a name given to a fake group of Arafat's men, and of his henchmen such as Mahmoud Abbas, one of whose feats wass the murder of two American diplomats in Khartoum), the goals and methods of these groups were the same, and their differences amounted to little more than the different warlords, with different levels of loot, who ran them and "took responsbility" (or disguised it, as in the case of "Black September") for these acts.

Nothing new about the modus operandi of Al Qaeda. The PLO has been there before. It was the test case: could terrorism work? Could it accomplish certain goals? The reaction of the Western world, in failing to stand by Israel, and urging it to crush, by all means, terrorists and their supporters, and not to give an inch in any "peace-processing," showed that terrorism can work.

It is working, still. And it will work as long as the Western world continues to "fight terrorrism" by ignoring the malign source of that terrorism in the promptings of Islam itself, in the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira. And that wilful refusal to consider the meaning, and menace, of Islam, means that the head of NATO, the United States, cannot allow itself to consider the internal threat within the NATO countries, within the larger Western alliance, within the West itself, of a growing, aggressive, and permanently worrisome Muslim population.

Instead, we rely on the least effective, and most depleting of tools of policy: bribery. And it is ineffective, these bribes of foreign aid, in essence, given the attitudes of both the Infidel givers and of the Muslim recipients, it is nothing but a disguised form of Jizyah. Instead of attempting to buy off certain states and peoples -- the fantastic sums being squandered by the American government in Iraq, Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in Egypt and Yemen, in Jordan and the so-called "Palestinian" territories (given to the Slow Jihadists of Fatah, who still control the Arab-occupied parts of Judea and Samaria, who may or may not share it with Gaza)-- money that should be denied all Muslim states, for they should be required to ask for such help from Saudi Arabia, and the U.A.E. and Kuwait, and other fellow members of the Umma, the Community of Believers. Every dollar that the Saudis give Egypt for bread (to keep the fellahin from rioting) is a dollar not avaialable, as part of the Money Weapon of the Jihad, to pay for mosques, madrasas, campaigns of Da'wa, and armies of Western hirelings all over the Infidel lands.

Diminishing oil revenues, and finding ways to use up as much of the reserves that the Saudis possess as possible, and to do so in a way that creates constant friction and resentment (on the part of both donor and donee) within the Camp of Islam, should be an obvious goal of Western policy. So far, however, it has not been, and indeed, American policymakers continue to believe in the efficacy of the Jizyah, the continued, never-to-be-examined-or-analyzed, large-scale bribing of Muslims as a tool of policy -- a tool of policy that is not merely ineffective, but is positively damaging to the real understanding of Islam, and of how to weaken the Camp of Islam.

Posted by: Hugh at January 28, 2008 9:23 AM

It is disgusting, but these people make an art form out of disgusting.
Allah may be the most, kind, the most compassionate, and merciful, but he also has a lot of disgusting habits. For those who read/listen to his eternal truths, and take them to heart, picking up Allah's bad habits and emulating them become normal routine.
Neither Allah nor Mohammad said to use children as suicide bombers, what they said was, in jihad, anything goes. For those who's conscience has been eaten by Allah, this means 'anything', and 'everything'. If there was a kitchen sink anywhere in Islamland, it would be ripped off the wall and thrown at the enemy. This is just dirt fighting, with no rules. Suicide bombings have been shown to be almost useless in changing large scale conditions.
After all those bombs and deaths, and all those rockets into Israel, Israel is still there, and the west is still in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Using children may be an admission of monstrosity, but it also may signal a weakening, a desperation,
or maybe they have run out of retarded people to use for this tactic. They could start using clerics, but clerics are allergic to bomb vests. It causes them to break out in hives and nervous jitters. That's why you don't see Ayatollah bombardiers. Severe allergic reactions. It's better to use children and mentally deficient people, they have not developed these allergies.

Posted by: duh_swami at January 28, 2008 9:30 AM

This should shock us, but not supprise us.

Posted by: tanstaafl at January 28, 2008 9:33 AM

Al-Qaeda leaders never seem to use themselves for suicide bombers.

Except in their ultimate fate, due to violently opposing Civilization, which will eventually wake and crush them.

Suicide by Global Policeman.

Posted by: profitsbeard at January 28, 2008 10:08 AM

The young people that were killed as a US soldier gave them some candy - THEY were children.
A fifteen-year-old is NOT a child. He is capable of understanding right and wrong. He's old enough to have witnessed the carnage wrought in the name of Islam. They won't give us details but my hunch is that the one who didn't even know "he was being used to deliver a bomb,” wasn't delivering pizza. They were targeting a funeral and a school. Even if neither one chose a suicide mission they still voluntarily chose to associate with al qaeda. They're not innocent children.

Posted by: PMK at January 28, 2008 10:12 AM

I wonder if we could, as a nation (yeah, I'm dreaming), make a difference in this behaviour by attrition.

Kill and Ambassador, and that's it. We don't replace him. Bomb an embassy, no replacement. Bomb a school, no help rebuilding. Steal food intended for the starving, no more food. Kill a journalist, no more press to get their disgusting antics into the papers or on the news.

Pretty soon, they would run out of Americans to terrorize, and would have to do it here, which might expose them for what they are.

These people are narcissistic, and crave attention. It would be nice if we could take that, and any other blackmail objects away from them. They might implode.

Posted by: Abscedere at January 28, 2008 10:21 AM

And who among us would deny 72 virgins to the children...or is that 72 Muhammad Teddy bears?

Posted by: TheOmegaMan at January 28, 2008 11:00 AM

Abscedere,

They shouldn't even get to "do it here". If not even our diplomats are safe, we can't allow a single person from that country to come here. If they have no compunction about destroying their own country we shouldn't give them a chance to destroy ours.
Don't let go of the dream. It might yet come true.
I would add moving the UN out of the US to the list. The "prestige" we get from hosting the UN isn't worth the cost. I'd give it to the French.

Posted by: PMK at January 28, 2008 12:14 PM

Do you know one of the reasons the ancient Jews were commanded by the Lord to wipe out entire tribes of people was because of this?

"You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods."
Deuteronomy 12:31

Does this sound like Islamic terrorists sacrificing their sons and daughters in the "fire" of suicide bombings in the name of their god?

Sure does to me.

"What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done there is nothing new under the sun"
Ecclesiastes 1:9

Posted by: SoteriA at January 28, 2008 1:58 PM

This cowardly and repugnant practice of using children as suicide bombers is not a new one. This loathsome modus-operandi has been used by the Palestinians for ages. It has been encouraged not only by the authorities but the, so-called, parents of many children, as martyrdom is deemed honourable.
I realise, I my prattling is repetitive; resonating much that has already been stated. However, when seeing pre-schoolers being prepped-and-preened to become mass-murderers, this, for me, is a prime-indicator that Islam, radical or otherwise, is incapable of evolving from its inherent nihilism.
As well, although some of the mass-media has touched upon this heinous training and abhorrent action; they, as do the Western-Democracy’s leaders, prefer to disregard it, as if it was an anomaly within this supposed religion of peace.
Their choosing ignorance over truth has already bit us big time: anyone believing that this is a mere glitch in the warped and perverse psyche of Islam is a fool, naïve or, more than likely, both.

Posted by: Ballzack at January 28, 2008 2:47 PM

In the bizarro world of islam, many recent images come to mind. There was the toddler who was handed up to Bhutto, though she did not reach out to take him, lest he fall from her arms and get injured, but who subsequently was blown apart by the explosives his loving father had wired to his body. There was “palestinean” mother stomping on the throat of her prostrate son, who was killed by the mob for allegedly helping the hated Jews. The other “Palestinian” mother who was proud to have nurtured two suicide bombers so far, and hoping that her third son would do likewise and kill as many Jews as possible. This grotesque loyalty to a long dead and rotting “prophet” that completely eradicates the natural mother-child and father-child bond, the strongest social bond found in nature, even in much of the animal world. What could be more disgusting?

Posted by: Infidel33 at January 28, 2008 3:34 PM

SoteriA,
What's your point in comparing ancient Jews to modern Muslims? It sounds like you're trying to draw a connection between them and to justify Islamic behavior with "everybody does it".

The Jews were a tribal nation fighting to preserve their own identity. How often TODAY do you hear Jews quoting Deuteronomy to justify killing others? The Christian purges have more to criticize. But when was the last Christian purge?

The history of Islam is a violent one. Even so, that would be irrelevant were it not for the fact that today, in 2008, Muslims remain unwilling to live with "the other" and are determined to subjugate it or drive it out of existence. Are we really asking too much of them when we ask them to respect the rights of others?

Posted by: PMK at January 28, 2008 3:39 PM

SoteriA

Those who make excuses for the actions of Jihadis are apologists for their acts of evil and mass murder are utterly wicked beings. And because you come onto this board to make postings excusing the acts of Jihadi murderers, that makes you EVIL by default.

End of.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at January 28, 2008 7:23 PM

"That being said, I will NEVER submit. These assholes can take their supposed Religion of Peace, and I say that spitting the words out in disgust, and shove it.

Vivre la liberte!

Vivre la democratie!

Resistez a l'Islam!"

Posted by: antishock8

....Vivre la Right On!!

Posted by: champ at January 28, 2008 7:49 PM

Islam - a Plague on Humanity

Posted by: champ at January 28, 2008 8:00 PM

Unless I am missing something SoteriA was not condoning what the Jews did to the gentiles. The gentiles were killing their young by burning them to death. It was a form of worship to their gods.

We all agree that this is out of bounds and deserves our strongest disapproval. If we have the chance in the future we would certainly try and execute those that have done child suicide bombings.

Posted by: Im.mad.as.HELL! at January 29, 2008 12:05 AM

15 year olds must be trained first. For example, 'take the kids to work' week is a great way to start training for a career.

Posted by: Shy Guy at January 29, 2008 2:16 AM

Im.mad.As.HELL,
SoteriA's post started by saying the Jews were commanded by God to "wipe out entire tribes of people".

The question and the quote don't go together.
I ask again: so what's the point? If the Muslims of today are acting like the gentiles of three thousand years ago does that mean that Jews must wipe out the Muslims (whole tribes of people)? Of course not. So why even ask that first question? It sets up a moral equivalence for Islam: if God could command the Jews to wipe out entire tribes of people then why can't he do the same for Muslims?

Posted by: PMK at January 29, 2008 8:39 AM

@PMK

I do not speak for God. He can judge and carry out his judgments anyway he sees fit. He has in the past used other nations to carry out his judgments on the Jews. The captivity and destruction of Israel by Babylon to mention one is an example. Whether he is using the Muslims on the world stage I don't know. This does not give in anyway virtue to Islam anymore than saying the Jews were more virtues in killing the gentiles. I am not a defeatist and will with every fiber of my body defend and defeat this attack on me and our way of life.

The main point was that these people of old cruelly slaughter their children and God judged them for it. I don't think it is a stretch that Islam will be judged for the same thing. A lot of people claim to be speaking for God or doing his bidding. I use the Bible as a yardstick to determine what is right or wrong. It has not failed me yet.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is full of living power. It is sharper than the sharpest knife, cutting deep into our innermost thoughts and desires. It exposes us for what we really are.

العبرانيين 4:12
من اجل كلمة الله هي السلطة الكاملة للكائنات الحيه. ومن اكثر حدة من سكين حاده ، وقطع عميق في نظمنا اعمق الافكار والرغبات. وهو يعرض لنا لماذا نحن حقا.

Posted by: Im.mad.as.HELL! at January 29, 2008 12:28 PM

Im.mad.as.HELL,

Point taken.

I am not up on Bible quotes. I only know the basic tenets. Maybe you can tell me where in the Old Testament does God command the Jews to wipe out whole tribes of people?

The quote from Deuteronomy was telling Jews how to live their own lives. It did NOT give them license to destroy those who didn't believe as they did. That is why I said the question and the quote (SoteriA's) didn't go together.

Posted by: PMK at January 29, 2008 7:03 PM

Im.mad.as.HELL,

Point taken.

I am not expert on Bible text. I only know basic tenets, from my Catholic education. Maybe you can point to one instance in the Old Testament where God commands the Jews to wipe out whole tribes of people?

The Deuteronomy quote tells the Jews how to live their own lives. It doesn't tell them to wipe out people who don't share their beliefs. I still don't see the connection between the quote and the question that preceded it. If SoteriA wants to point to Deuteronomy and compare God's laws to what Muslims are doing today, why did that first question even have to be asked? The verse quoted didn't mandate or even suggest mass slaughter of non-believers.

Posted by: PMK at January 29, 2008 7:14 PM

I am not expert on Bible text. I only know basic tenets, from my Catholic education. Maybe you can point to one instance in the Old Testament where God commands the Jews to wipe out whole tribes of people?

Posted by: PMK

There are actually many passages in which the Bible describes God's commands to massacre whole tribes. That is how the Jews came to settle the promised land - they went from town to town killing everyone or enslaving them. If you actually read the Old Testament, you would know this.

Victory over Og - Then they turned and went up along the road to Bashan. But Og, king of Bashan, advanced against them with all his people to give battle at Edrei. The Lord however said to Moses, "Do not be afraid of him; for into your hand I will deliver him with all his people and his land. Do to him as you did to Sihon (defeated at the point of the sword and took possession of all his land, seized all the towns settled by the Amorites). So they struck him down with his sons and all his people, until not a survivor was left to him, and they took possession of his land.

- Numbers 21:33-35

Extermination of the Midianites So Moses told the people, "Select men from your midst and arm them for war, to attack the Midianites and execute the Lord's vengeance on them..." They waged war against teh Midianites, as the Lord had commanded Moses, and killed every male among themBut the Israelites kept the women of the Midianites with their little ones as captives, and all their herds and flocks and wealth as spoil, while they set on fire all the towns where they had settled and all their encampments.

- Numbers 31:3-10

later in the same book...Treatment of captives: Moses became angry with the officers of the army who were returning from combat. "So you have spared all the women!" he exclaimed..."Slay, therefore, every male child and every woman who has had intercourse with a man. But you may spare and keep for youselves all girls who had no intercourse with a man."

- Numbers 31:14-18

another account of the defeat of Sihon from Deuteronomy:
"Advance now accross the Wadi Arnon, I now deliver into your hands Sihon, the Amorite king of Heshbon, and his land. Begin the occupation; engage him in battle." ... (later in the chapter) So Sihon and all his people advanced against us to join battle at Jahaz; but since the Lord, our God, had delivered him to us, we defeated him and his sons and all his people. At that time we seized all his cities and doomed them all, with their men, women, and children (killed them all); we left no survivor. Our only booty was the livestock and the loot of the captured cities.
Deuteronomy 2:24-35

Defeat of Og: ...And thus the Lord, our God, delivered into our hands Og, king of Bashan, with all his people. We defeated him so completely that we left him no survivor. At that time we captured all his cities, none of them eluding our grasp, the whole region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan: sixty cities in all, to say nothing of the great number of unwalled towns...so also here we doomed all the cities, with their men, women, and children; but all the livestock and the loot of each city we took as booty for ourselves.
Deuteronomy 3:3-7

From Joshua:
Seige of Jericho: They observed the ban by putting to the sword all living creatures in the city: men and women, young and old, as well as oxen, sheep and asses...(later) The city itself they burned with all that was in it, except the silver, gold, and articles of bronze and iron, which were placed in the treasury of the house of the Lord.
Joshua 6:21-24

Defeat of Ai:
All the inhabitants of Ai who had pursued the Israelites into the desert were slain by the sword there in the open, down to the last man. Then all Israel returned and put to the sword those inside the city. There fell that day a total of twelve thousand men and women, the entire population of Ai...However, the Israelites took for themselves as booty the livestock and the spoil of that city, according to the command of the Lord. Then Joshua destroyed the place by fire, reducing it to an everlasting mound of ruins, as it remains today. He had the king of Ai hanged on a tree until evening.
Joshua 6:24-29

Later in Joshua, the Jews conquers Gibeon in the same manner. Then they marched on to Canaan. In Southern Canaan, Joshua and the Jews conquered city after city - killing all people, supposedly commanded by God to do so. Then they marched on to Northern Canaan, doing the same.

Posted by: Eudaemon at January 29, 2008 11:03 PM

By the way. It's interesting to note that the Muslims - especially earlier in history - used the same tactics that the Jews did. However, the difference is that instead of conquering one small piece of land, the Muslims believe that they are to conquer the entire world.

Posted by: Eudaemon at January 29, 2008 11:16 PM

Eudaemon,
Thank you. We spent very little time on the OT except for Genesis and the first part of Exodus. We spent much more time studying our catechisms. I tried reading the OT myself several times but couldn't get far past the Israelites' escape from Egypt. That is why I asked the question.

The citations you listed are all from the period when the Israelites were wandering in the desert and trying to find their way home to the land that God had allowed them to leave centuries earlier (while making a promise that He would bring them home again).

As you pointed out, they weren't interested in conquering the world, only in making a home for themselves. Comparing the early Muslims to the Israelites holds some validity. Comparing today's jihadists to the Jews does not.

Posted by: PMK at January 30, 2008 12:09 PM

PMK & Eudaemon

To finish the Bible study lol. I have added these verses from Genesis, were God tells Abram what will happen to his dependents.

Gen 15:13-21 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” . . . On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

Abram (before his name was changed to Abraham) was in Egypt when this was told to him. They (descendants) would return four generations later to Egypt. After four hundred years, they would return to the land God had promised. The important thing to note regarding why the inhabitance were all to be kill is the phrase 'for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.'. I have heard commentators say that along with sacrificing their children they were also sexually liberated and all kinds of diseases were rampant in the population. God took them out of the land to keep them from being involved in these practices (400 years). When they returned, he told them to kill everyone to keep them from catching any diseases or be influenced by their life style and false Gods.

I am only adding this, because many people unjustly throw the Jews into a bad light for what they did. When you hear the whole story it puts a proper and just light on what they did. Oh, all of the tribes mentioned are the ones that Joshua and the Jews fought when they returned to the land. Some successfully other not so, but that is a whole others story.

Posted by: Im.mad.as.HELL! at January 30, 2008 4:57 PM