Wow! I would say say that takes the cake. Even Bush (or the liberal Dems) have not done something that stupid yet.

We have a winner...no way can anything top that.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 5, 2008 1:31 PM

Glad to see this made the cut.

Does anyone wanna take a stab at why Britain did it? M16 can't be making the same mistakes America did with the mujhadeen, can it?

Posted by: Blue at February 5, 2008 1:33 PM

What is wrong with the Brits? Seriously. Nobody can be this stupid, it has to be intentional.

Posted by: Elric66 at February 5, 2008 1:33 PM

I feel a headache coming on here.

Posted by: Mackie at February 5, 2008 1:35 PM

correction above, have = has

I wonder if this would have worked in WWII? We could have helped the Luftwaffe build air bases in hopes they would turn against Hitler.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 5, 2008 1:36 PM

This my fellow commenter's;

Is the strategical thinking and planning of the Utopian left-wing government in Britain today.

Bang go my taxes yet again!!. - Oh how I look forward to "donating" to this inept shambles !!!.

Posted by: Stone Rose at February 5, 2008 1:48 PM

"Is the strategical thinking and planning of the Utopian left-wing government in Britain today."

That wont last long once the Muslim population takes over

Posted by: Elric66 at February 5, 2008 1:51 PM

HOLD THE PRESS!!!

Since non of you are there and since this is a 3rd hand, thrift store type press release, we do not have the full details.

"An Afghan government source said the training camp was part of a British plan to use bands of reconciled Taliban"

British Military intelligence is probably a lot better at this than most of you, the British are experts at counter insurgency and guerilla warfare, backed up with centuries of hands on fighting. (god i sound like prince andrew)
But my point is, lets see and wait if this pays off.

"The camp would also have provided vocational training, including farming and irrigation techniques, to offer people a viable alternative to growing opium. But the Afghan government took issue with plans to provide military training, to turn the insurgents into a defence force."

This is probably the best way at winning their hearts and minds as similar tactics were employed against the Malayan rebels which were highly successful.

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at February 5, 2008 1:53 PM

WTF is going on here?

Can you remember the article on Muslim subversion of the police force, well it has been censored.

The Daily Mail’s shock article revealing that Muslim police officers are covering up and blocking the investigations into “honour killings” amongst Muslim families in Britain, has been pulled off that newspaper’s web site in an unusual case of self censorship.

http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2008/02/profile-jihadi-on-home-front-pt-2.html

Posted by: shiva at February 5, 2008 1:55 PM

Stupid is as stupid does, Sir.

Posted by: MP at February 5, 2008 2:11 PM

The UK has certainly been stuck on stupid for quite some time now. Every so often an article comes out that has a glimmer of hope in it and then back to the abyss of stupid. And the muslims are wringing their hands and smiling in glee over it all.

Posted by: R_not at February 5, 2008 2:17 PM

ARE THESE PEOPLE ON CRACK?!

No, seriously ... Are they on crack?

Does anyone honestly believe that these folks will give up OBL, and abandon their holy war and lucrative opium manufacturing industry for - oh, I dunno - a training certificate in Automotive Repair, Computer Programming or Home Health? We can't even get our own kids to quit making and selling Meth in the US, and they're not even our SWORN ENEMIES!!! What delusional politician thinks that these people will drop the jihad for a brand new Vo Tech???

Said the fox to the scorpion: "Why did you sting me? Now we'll both drown."
Said the scorpion to the fox: "I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Posted by: Lori B. at February 5, 2008 2:18 PM

Take it easy folks. Enlisting the sunni to fight el quaida is what turned the war in Iraq around. I think we need more information before we pass judgement.

Posted by: old fogey at February 5, 2008 2:19 PM

Thank you Leon;
Your post prompted me to read the whole article. I'm sorry to say that the version above was very poor reporting. It is very misleading and disapointing. I expect much better from Jihad Watch.

Posted by: old fogey at February 5, 2008 2:31 PM

"bands of reconciled Taliban"'

....heavy metal, no doubt....

....just what constitutes a reconciled Taliban?....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at February 5, 2008 2:31 PM

Let's hope the Brits are more clever than we give them credit for...When all the terrorists are in the camp, the former will push a button that will set a charge to the tons of explosives they've hidden all over the camp...after they have gotten whatever intelligence they have needed from the strategically placed bugs all over the camp.

They would have had no problem dealing with their enemies in such a manner about 65 years ago.

When you fight, you must do so to win.

Posted by: dunkenstein at February 5, 2008 2:32 PM

"And now...another episode of 'The Twilight Zone'"

"Stop the world, I wanna get off!" Maybe if I stand outside with my thumb in the air, a ufo will pick me up. lol

Well, I suppose we have given them money, weapons and our open borders, so why not train them too?

O.k Hugh, we need interlude time...quick.

Posted by: mrockroll1969 at February 5, 2008 2:35 PM

Stone Rose,

"Bang go my taxes yet again!!"

lol I say that every time bush opens his mouth.

Our leaders are beyond stupid. Whats a word that describes beyond stupid?

Posted by: mrockroll1969 at February 5, 2008 2:40 PM

just when i think things cant get any worse, they do. when is the g-ment of uk going to roll over and let these guys take over? will not be long i am sure!

Posted by: zionist122 at February 5, 2008 2:47 PM

I wonder if the Taliban leaders were invited to graduate at Sandhurst.

Posted by: pr126 at February 5, 2008 2:50 PM

""Our objective is to defeat the insurgency by isolating and eliminating their leaders. ..."

....wrong plan....there will always be some new whacko leader to replace the dead ones....do what you can to defeat Islamic ideolgy....change the way people think.......and quit paying jiyzah / foreign aid to those countries who don't change...

Posted by: exsgtbrown at February 5, 2008 2:51 PM

"we need interlude time...quick"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c7yjtT2F0E

Posted by: Hugh at February 5, 2008 2:56 PM

Thanks Hugh, that was a perfect song title for this thread.

Posted by: mrockroll1969 at February 5, 2008 3:03 PM

Dunkenstein;

"Let's hope the Brits are more clever than we give them credit for"

As a Brit, I would love to offer you comforting words of solitude.

But as I know my government oh so well, I can now categorically state there will be no credit on this issue as they are inanely stupid!!!.

Posted by: Stone Rose at February 5, 2008 3:08 PM

"Our Good Muslims". A desert mirage the West will squander trillions pursuing. The 'success' of the 'surge' in Iraq is built on even 'shiftier' sand.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at February 5, 2008 3:15 PM

The idea that the British government is giving aid to al-Qaeda in the form irrigation techniques and farming tools is a great strategy to win hearts and minds as Leon pointed out.

But what was the need for the secrecy?

And what is the need to arm them?

Why didn't the British negotiate with the government? While it's reasonable to assume that the Afghani government would find fault and slow down the operation, I find it hard to believe that irrigation techniques and farming equipment require so much secrecy.

Posted by: Blue at February 5, 2008 3:19 PM

Since December, President Karzai has blocked the appointment of Paddy Ashdown to the top UN job in Kabul and he has blamed British troops for losing control of Helmand.

The Brits can't be that stupid. I'm figuring that this is a ploy and that the always cash-thirsty Labour boys are entering a heroin distribution operation from the new base. After all, Helmand is the world's largest single source of heroin, so why not make a little money in the bargain?

* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *

Be like the good old days, where the ambitious Lt. Ollie North operated out of that small airport hangar in Hope, Arkansas. The head of the Arkansas State Police never did get over seeing a large cocaine smuggling ring operate right under his nose (and Slick Willy Clinton's).

Posted by: Alarmed Pig Farmer at February 5, 2008 3:24 PM

Brown wants to "defeat the insurgency by isolating and eliminating the leaders". How does he do that without gaining the trust and confidence of the lower ranks? The war won't be won in Kabul. People everywhere have to give up the fight. Karzai might be our best friend but that won't matter if Taliban roam freely. This action may prove to be wrongheaded but what else is there?

Either you trust someone or you trust no one. And if we trust no one then why are we there?

If no one can be trusted then we are left with two alternatives:

1. Kill all Afghans, thereby eliminating any current and future threat from the Taliban.
2. Leave the country and never go back even if Osama and company live openly in Kabul.

Posted by: PMK at February 5, 2008 3:28 PM

If a 'person/citizen' gives money to the Taliban and that 'person/citizen' can be prosecuted for aiding terrorists, then how can the goverment give money and aid to the Taliban and this be 'ok'?

Isn't this still 'aiding' terrorists? Yes.

I am going to assume that the goverment will claim 'innocent by good intentions', but I am sorry that does not stand in court for a 'citizen' and it should not stand in court for a goverment official.

This should be opened up into a full fledged investigation. Who are the decision makers in this case, bigger yet..who are the advisors behind this bright idea, are they muslims? If they are muslims then are they really 'innocent by good intentions' and are their 'intentions' meant to be 'good' for British people or Muslim conquest?

People should be prosecuted for aiding the enemy.

Wrong is still wrong, and being a goverment employee does not exempt you from accountability.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at February 5, 2008 3:46 PM

This is a brilliant idea. The Taliban will quickly realize that the government of Britain is working as hard and as quickly as possible to complete the Islamization of Britain and that they and the British government are already on the same side.
How did Britain ever resist Hitler? Why do the British vote for these idiots? I guess because they're as stupid and gullible as many of my fellow Americans. Islam is a religion of peace, islam is a religion of peace, islamisareligionofpeace.

Posted by: Rick at February 5, 2008 3:50 PM

The very idea that irrigation techniques and farming tools is a "great strategy" to "win hearts and minds" is asinine too. Religious demands always trump Mother Nature. I could see temporary short-term benefits in such a strategy; if Western troops were stationed in or occupying an area or community in the grip of "Islamic tensions", then attempts to "win hearts and minds" might not be such a bad idea, as far as the short-term military benefits in such strategies are apparent.

Then again, Western troops shouldn't be occupying Islamic lands as there is really no benefit in that particular approach either. No one honestly believes that democracy is strong enough to defeat the political side of Islam; all the evidence (so-far) shows that, if anything, democracy is a facilitator of Islamic jihad at the ballot box. If we ultimately can't "rebuild" these Islamic nations, then do we occupy them to protect our interests? Only if our interests involve protecting the regimes and individuals who look the other way or who quietly whisper "Allahu akhbar" whenever a successful ghazi attack is carried out against the West. Occupation of Islamic lands will not lead us toward the sunnier shores of victory anytime soon. It's the culture, stupid.

Western troops should only be deployed in the field and on Islamic soil in order to crush jihadist forces, wherever they may be found. If that entails deployment of the 7th Cavalry near Damascus or Riyadh, then so be it. If it involves the destruction of infrastructure or any other resource (including oil) which may be used against the West through jihad, then so be it. At least this would be the correct approach towards winning the "long war". Unfortunately, the situation on the ground in the Islamic world and here in the West would never support such bold moves. As for oil we can't seem to get enough of it (even though our addiction is financing our annihilation) In our political culture it looks as though we'll have to "learn to live with a nuclear Iran". So the idea that the British government would pull this is not surprising.

With all the talk about Europe, the War, and NATO I hope everyone appreciates where we in the West are heading. The days of European soldiers fighting side be side with American soldiers are fast ending. Hope you enjoyed it while it lasted. The West will soon be divided as it will simply not be feasible enough to take European troops with us into the field. With all the caveats floating around Afghanistan right now, one wonders how we've managed to come this far without a little bit of dumb luck on our side. This sounds like talk of defeat, but it's cold hard realism. European governments on the continent (and worst of all, it would appear, in Britain itself) are fast making the accomplishments of their soldiers in the East fruitless. Perhaps this is the fulfilment of some grand Islamic strategy; political forces in the West encourage appeasement and collaboration (with all the ridiculous promises of peace aside), while their military forces in the East move as fast as they can on the ground. If only they could move as fast as we can, this war would have already been over by now.

Posted by: TheDiggler at February 5, 2008 3:53 PM

Didn't I read somewhere that the top British commander in Afghanistan has converted to Islam?
Hmmm... what a clever fellow

Posted by: a10billr at February 5, 2008 4:09 PM

How did Britain ever resist Hitler?

One word.....CHURCHILL

Posted by: gymgal at February 5, 2008 4:25 PM

"An appeaser is one who feeds the crocodile hoping it will eat him last".

Winston Churchill - warning America of the British governments current strategy!!.

Posted by: Stone Rose at February 5, 2008 4:41 PM

"How did Britain ever resist Hitler?

One word.....CHURCHILL"

yet as soon as the war was done, they threw this great man aside and voted for change, marxism via the back door!

Posted by: leonthepigfarmer at February 5, 2008 4:41 PM

old fogey

You say...

"Take it easy folks. Enlisting the sunni to fight el quaida is what turned the war in Iraq around. I think we need more information before we pass judgement."

I don't know if you are serious or not, but either way...thanks for the laugh.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 5, 2008 4:41 PM

what is needed here is massive dosing of prozac created in powdered form and dropped on crops or in water supply!!!

every one could use this now especially all these crazy muslims!!!

Posted by: zionist122 at February 5, 2008 4:54 PM

""How did Britain ever resist Hitler?"

....well Hitler did help out...his bombings of UK united the people against the Nazis...much in the same way the Islamic bombings will unite the Infidels into a firmer course of action than you see today....

Posted by: exsgtbrown at February 5, 2008 5:10 PM

I'm with you on this one Leon, although I will take issue with your last paragraph in which you say "This is probably the best way at winning their hearts and minds as similar tactics were employed against the Malayan rebels which were highly successful."
You overlook the fact we are up against an entirely different animal here, where "hearts and minds" cannot be won over. Our best hope is that this risky initative will cause divisions within the ranks of the Taliban. Let's think of this as one of Baldrick's cunning plans. To lure a wavering mujhadeen in to tasting, then consuming the comforts and soft living offered by the filthy Infidel.

Remember Leon, Hamid Karzai is no friend of the West. Permitting your countrymen to fly kites and listen to un-Islamic music does not make for free countrymen.

If this foolish endeavour by us Brits does eventually fail, which I'm sure it will, at least we will have created in this vast and rugged country, an area that could be best described as target rich.

Posted by: western infidel at February 5, 2008 5:53 PM

Posted by: a10billr

Didn't I read somewhere that the top British commander in Afghanistan has converted to Islam?
Hmmm... what a clever fellow.

I am afraid you got that wrong it was supposedly an American.

Dear Leon,
concerning your comments about British tactics in Malaya there was a big difference the insurgent were ethic Chinese Communists. Not likely to claim the affections of the local Muslim Malaya's. Afghanistan is a hell of a lot different. I was up there in the late 1970s and I don't suppose thing have changed very much. They are proud arrogant opportunist who will sell out there family for a profit and will play one side against each other. Morals and ethics don't come into it. Divide and conquer do not work with them, firstly they are already divided and secondly it is impossible to conquer them as they will never admit that they have been beaten. The land is great for guerrilla warfare. We the Brits fought three wars against the Afghans in 1842, 1876 and 1919. In none of them did we come out of with our military laurels in tacked. 1842 was especially humiliating only one British officer a Dr, Bryson managed to get back to Jallahabad, from Kabul out of an army of 20,000. the Stafford's I think were wiped out almost to a man at Gandamak. You can subdue them but you wont beat them. The best way to treat Afghanistan is to put a 10 meter fence around the place and charge it up to 20,000 volts and leave them to there own devices. The problem with the British Government we have got now is they have not forgotten anything, for the simple reason that they have not learned anything in the first place. The British Empire started to go down the nick when we installed the telegraph to all of our colonies and those ethnic minority thugs that we employed, the Irish and Scottish Generals who were usually in the majority in the British army overseas, had there more rowdy robust solutions to a local problems curtailed by a telegram from a crumpet eating, tea sipping, time serving, desk wallah in Whitehall. End of rant.

Posted by: Holger Dansker at February 5, 2008 5:55 PM

OT
A new twist to the Nigerian scam...
a Lebanese scam.
From: "mrsharirii@hotmail.com"
Sent: Tuesday, February 5, 2008 12:28:13 PM
Subject: RE:NEW YEAR PROPOSAL (HARIRI ORGANISATION)

Dear Friend,

I am Mrs.Nazek H. Z. Hariri, wife of the late Prime Minister of
Lebanon, Mr. Rafiq Hariri, who was assassinated on 14 February 2005, along
with 20 Others, near the St. George Hotel in Beirut.

In the wake of his assassination on 14 February 2005, the United
Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan dispatched a fact-finding mission To
investigate the killing. Arriving in Beirut on 25 February,the mission
Interviewed Lebanese officials and politicians, from both the Government
and opposition, studied the Lebanese investigation and legal Proceedings
examined the crime scene and collected evidence. It also Interviewed
some Witnesses.

The report emphasizes that it is impossible to identify the culprit
Until the perpetrators have been brought to justice,but blames the Syrian
government, which it charges with exerting influence that goes beyond
the reasonable exercise of cooperative or neighborly relations, with
Primary responsibility for the political tension that preceded the
Assassination, by its (interference) with the details of governance in
Lebanon in a heavy-handed and inflexible manner.

Since the perpetrators of these evil act has not been brought to
Justice, l have the feelings that l am not also save here in Beirut.I intend
leaving for Europe or the United States.During my husband's regime as
the Prime Minister of Lebanon, He realized some reasonable amount of
money from various deals that I successfully executed. The money was
deposited by my husband in my Name, Mrs.Nazek H. Z. Hariri,in a Finance
firm in Europe. I have plans to invest this money outside Lebanon, I am
contacting you because am looking for a trusted and reliable Person
that will represent me in Europe to claim the money on mybehalf.

I have sent a notification letter to the finance institution,that the
funds will be collected by the family foreign business partner.Why l
need a foreign partner is that, as an Arab woman,the tradition forbids me
to run any business with my son(Saadeddine).Since he was Not aware of
the money from the very first beginning.

SEE LINKS FOR DETAILS:
http://www.cedarland.org/haririass.html
http://www.ain-al-yaqeen.com/issues/20050225/feat4en.htm
http://english.daralhayat.com/Spec/02-2006/Article-20060215-6e660707-c0a8-10ed-0118-a770edfc15a0/story.html
http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Swiss-to-help-find-Hariri-killers/2005/02/17/1108609345039.html
http://www.cs.utk.edu/~langston/Pix/Lebanon-Pix/downtown-beirut/tn/hariri-grave.jpg.html
http://www.zeitenschrift.net/news/sne-28205-hariri.ihtml

Mrs.Nazek H. Z. Hariri.
Email me via my personal email address:mrsharirii@hotmail.com

Posted by: interestinconundrum at February 5, 2008 6:32 PM

People - don't believe all you read in the paper.

The British have got many years of experience in this sort of scenario; they successfully beat another ideology (communism) in Malaya and won through in Oman and Yemen.

They successfully crushed many other insurgency movements around the world before granting independence to colonies in the years following the second world war. After 30 long years they even prevailed in the long struggle against terrorism in Northern Ireland.

They have successfully moved out of Southern Iraq on schedule. Since handing over to the Iraqi government Basra has not erupted in anarchy or rebellion against the Iraqi governement - despite the withering predictions of doom and other criticisms from the liberal press.

Winning hearts and minds is something the British are good at. Helping Afghans villagers to defend themselves is a part of that process. After 3 tours in combat conditions I can speak with some experience that our tactics work.

Posted by: nemesis at February 5, 2008 6:34 PM

nemesis,

Communism??? Irish Catholics??? Hearts and Minds???

We faced and defeated Communism. This is not the same thing. We are not fighting Islam, but instead the tactic known as "terror" in Afghanistan. Until we take on Islam (or at least the political form of Islam), then we have NO chance of winning in any of these places.

Why: because the same ideology that fuels jihadist, continues to exist. Just look at the other important part of the story above:

"President Karzai's political mentor, Sibghatullah Mojaddedi, endorsed a death sentence for blasphemy on the student journalist Sayed Pervez Kambaksh last week.."

I think this explains all we need to know about Afghanistan and Karzai. It is a hostile place with a hostile people, as long as Islam is part of the equation. What does this plan or any of the idiotic plans relating to "winning the hearts of minds" of these folks, have to do with defeating jihad.

You then say...

"They have successfully moved out of Southern Iraq on schedule. Since handing over to the Iraqi government Basra has not erupted in anarchy or rebellion against the Iraqi government - despite the withering predictions of doom and other criticisms from the liberal press."

So? Should I feel safer that Islamic law is now enforced in Basra? That is what is happening now in that part of the country. There are some things worse then anarchy, and that is more Islam. The children there will be given an Islamic education. The women will be put in their place and non-Muslims will keep low and pay their head tax. The most important outcome of all: Political Islam wins. How is this a victory?

This gets us back to the original problem: Who is the enemy? I say it is Islam or political Islam that inspires jihad. Thus any state where we get "more Islam" is a bad thing.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 5, 2008 7:16 PM

Give them guns and bullets, too, so they might shoot at themselves.

Any more good plans?

Posted by: profitsbeard at February 5, 2008 7:20 PM

The best way to treat Afghanistan is to put a 10 meter fence around the place and charge it up to 20,000 volts and leave them to there own devices.

by Holger Dansker

After Afghanistan, can we do the same with Gaza and the West Bank?

Posted by: PMK at February 5, 2008 8:03 PM

Greatcomet

You miss my point. The original article misleads people by saying we are trying to get the Taliban to switch sides. This is not the case as the aims are to help the population of Afghanistan to protect itself from Tyranny. By the way, the average Afghan farmer has little interest in jihadist ideology; he is more bothered about protecting his patch, feeding his family and selling his crop. Fighting and opium have been the dual industries in Afghanistan for generations. The jihad element is a newer phenomenon often involving non Pashtun 'foreigners'.

My main point is that despite the variety of ideologies facing British Forces over the last 60 years or so we have succeeded in achieving political success following military victory. Do not blame the military for doing their job and winning the war in Basra etc; by all means, blame the modern politicians for losing the 'peace' that follows.

Now Islam may be different in its durability and current intensity. However, in military terms, the jihadists in Afghanistan are getting their arses severely kicked at the moment. This is largely why their tactics are changing to mirror the IED/suicide bomb tactics used in Baghdad.

When this happens, will our societies have the courage to deny the enemy food and shelter in the way the British did in the Boer War? More controversially would we use the highly successful 'terrorise the terrorist' tactics used by the mainly German veteran members of the French Foreign Legion in 1950's Indochina? I think not; especially when we are still not allowed to fire on mosques used by jihadists as firing positions!!

Posted by: nemesis at February 5, 2008 8:15 PM

By the way you guys. I hope your armchairs are comfortable when you spout on about stopping the march of Islam and what a crap job we are all doing and how we can't win. I am sure I can find a spare seat or two for you lot on our next trip to Helmand :-)

Posted by: nemesis at February 5, 2008 8:19 PM

nemesis,

Don't come down on us. I know we are doing a great job fighting this war - we are changing "hearts and minds". We are changing the "hearts and minds" that matter - the ones in our own countries. We are going to be the ones fighting the final battle against islam - it wont be in iraq or afghan, either. It will be in our front yards.

Our military is doing a great job, and I know most of the posters here will agree. It's the strategy that sucks. The strategy will not work. Sooner or later the terrorists will come back to all areas that have been cleared out, and I don't have any faith in any muslim military.

The strategy sucks and we can (and do) blame that on our politicians. They haven't bothered to study the enemy. Our military is fighting for sharia law (unbelievable).

Posted by: mrockroll1969 at February 5, 2008 8:39 PM

OK, That does it. Enough of this couchpotato-warrior BS!!! I would like to see some postings here at JW from grunts in country, actually doing the fighting. We even get them on my "Epistomology" e-mail list, for cripes sake. Why don't any of them ever post here?

Posted by: skevin at February 5, 2008 9:16 PM

Personally, I'm taking great comfort in that telling phrase, "reconciled taliban". It presents such a warm, positive picture to conjure with. In my mind's eye I can see groups of bearded fighters, which a little while ago weren't even speaking to each other, now engaging in group hugs.

Go on...hug a Jihadist.

I suspect that they're all fully reconciled ...to the total destruction of all kafirs.

Posted by: Kev at February 5, 2008 9:28 PM

nemesis

Warfare is political. It is using force to get what you want.

What kind of tyranny are they under? The only thing that causes the Islamic world to be tyrannized is the system of governments they create based off Islam. Both the Iraqi constitution and the Afghanistan government make Islam the bases of all laws or at least make no laws contrary to Islam. Once again I ask: How is this reducing the power of Islam in their lives?

Jihad and Islam go together. You cannot separate them into elements. The reason why some Afghan farmers might seem hospitable is they are clueless about their faith. The ones who eat, drink, and sleep the Quran and Islam everyday are the problems. It is not a new phenomenon either, and is as old as when Islam first entered that troubled land.

I don’t blame the military, and they did the best they could under the constraints placed upon them. That still does NOT mean a victory. Victory means you have gained an objective in all phases. Basra is in control of the enemy. The people are getting more Islam in their lives then they did ten years ago. Islamic political parties dominate their elections. Their law code is based off of Islam or at least something resembling it. How can you call that a victory? Btw, I am not just blaming Britain, my country has lost too. Iraq is a failed mission, because, the people are more Islamic, not less. More Islam means more jihadist. The more money you give to them, the greater position they will be to wage war against us down the road. We are not fighting hostile governments, but a people made hostile by the teachings of Islam.

We are not kicking ass in Afghanistan or Iraq. In Afghanistan, they slip across the border to Pakistan. We are clearly superior in every way militarily. Nobody doubts that for a minute, but the current strategy of spending billions to win the “hearts and minds” in Iraq and Afghanistan, is a complete waste of time. The central root cause of this conflict is not being addressed, which is the jihad concept. That concept is as Islamic as apple pie is American. This plan, in the article above (no matter how you read it), is just well….stupid.

In WWII, we fought Nazism. We bombed their cities to ruin and crushed their spirit to resist. Then we enforced our will and our values upon them. We did not beg, we did not try to win hearts and minds, we did not give them loads of cash, until the people of Germany and Japan submitted to us. Only once they submitted to us, did we give them a helping hand. The people of Iraq and Afghanistan never submitted to us. We may role up and down their lands at will, but their values are still the same. Those values and beliefs are why we had a 9-11. They are still our enemy (passive or not), until we challenge those values and those beliefs.

You say….

“I hope your armchairs are comfortable when you spout on about stopping the march of Islam and what a crap job we are all doing and how we can't win.”

Life sucks. I don’t pretend to say we are winning when we are not. The Islamic invasion of the west goes on. Iraq and Afghanistan continue to be under the grips of Islamic governance. What does that look like to you? Winning or Losing?

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 5, 2008 9:52 PM

Comrade Gordon, his predecessor Blair and their leftist counterparts have been undermining the UK for a decade. The Brits, those not part of the leftist scourge, will not be shocked or awed by this Taliban Training Camp inanity. Most, however, will be shocked, perhaps awed that this Taliban “camp” will not be setup at the Army Training Estate (ATE), on Salisbury Plains.
Remember, per capita the UK has more nutters per square inch than any other western nation. No offence intended to my compatriots who are not part of the UK’s utter-nutter-disorder!

Posted by: ballzack at February 5, 2008 11:40 PM

GreatComet

The scope of work that fills my time is limited to the military aspect on the ground. Perhaps when that is all over with then I can ponder the bigger picture, take up politics, get fat and solve the war of civilisations from home at the macro level.

For now, at the ground level we are most definitely kicking terrorist arses in pretty much every contact with the jihadists. Now you might get all negative on me and say that there are nore terrorists taking their places and it doesn't solve the problem of Islam that may only be eradicated with confidence through genocide (you can't kill an idea). But as an optimist, I can say at least we are actively reducing the opposition numbers and that the jihadists that come up against us won't be spreading hate or warped doctrine any more. Every little bit helps eh?

By they way, it is possible to get loyal Afghans to fight the Taliban. They do it every day already in supporting us. The main problems are that they are not as ideological as their Jihadist opposition, they lack training and they are outnumbered by foreign jihadists from all around. As I said before, most Afghans have no interest in Jihad - they prefer to be left alone.

One idea you could work on until I get into politics is to get our economies off oil. Without oil the jihadists have no money and without money it is near impossible to sustain an effective jihad. In short, when the Islamic world returns to being a third world dustbowl again then Islam is most welcome to it (you really need to see Basra !). In parallel, jihad views in the West should be a deportable offence - we could then thin out anti social jihadists in our home countries. Best of luck with your greedy oil companies on the first topic and PC liberal bed wetters on the latter.

Posted by: nemesis at February 6, 2008 7:04 AM

nemesis

"One idea you could work on until I get into politics is to get our economies off oil. Without oil the jihadists have no money and without money it is near impossible to sustain an effective jihad."

I agree with you there. The number one problem is that. I prefer the Hugh Fitzgerald strategy in general, but no plan will work as long as we have that weight around our necks. It changes everything...

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at February 6, 2008 8:58 AM

I haven't laughed as much in years.

Your tax pounds at work UK citizens.

Your NHS is falling apart? Tax too high? Schools underfunded?

Tough shit, the Taliban's training is way more important.

So there.

Shouldn't be surprised here, to be honest, though.

NATO have been on very good terms with the Mujahideen for many a decade.

NATO and Mujahideen. As thick as thieves.

Apologies to any thieves. My sincere apologies to being compared to NATO and Mujahideen.

Posted by: ewha1 at February 7, 2008 9:44 AM

nemesis:"By they way, it is possible to get loyal Afghans to fight the Taliban. They do it every day already in supporting us."

Boy is that lame or what. According to Bodansky, over 60% of Afghanistan is in enemy hands. It's a complete, utter, unmitigated disaster. The biggest mistake was the "democracy" bullshit salespitch. That completely alienated the tribes. They were pretty much pissed off with the Wahabbist nutters but this "democracy" crap wasn't even Islamic. They opted for the lesser of two Evils. This complete misreading of the tribes will take generations to correct. What's more unforgivable is that the US in particular had numerous CIA operatives in the area over the last few decades who knew the tribes really well. Their expertise was cast aside by the Bush administration who thought that "demAAAAcracy" would trump all.

Bozos.

And now the level of attacks against the NATO forces is several times higher than it was against the Soviet forces.

It's a military debacle.

Hence, the craven attitude of Britain with the Taliban. NATO is grovelling to the Taliban.

Pathetic.

This "democracy" angle will be our undoing. To find out how to defeat the Islamists, ask those dreaded Slavs, the Russians, and how they dealt with Chechnya.

Chechnya is THE success story in the Jihadist fight.

Posted by: ewha1 at February 7, 2008 10:04 AM

ewha1

Lame? Are you in Afghanistan? Do you see what is going on in real life? Are you fighting Islam day to day and hand to hand? Do you see what our interpreters go through? Thought not. Bloody armchair warriors really grip me...

Pop along to Bastion and I will show you lame.

Posted by: nemesis at February 7, 2008 9:12 PM

Imagine, back in 2001, when NATO first invaded Afghanistan and took the capital in a matter of weeks. Imagine back then, if someone had've said that half a dozen years later, NATO would be secretly training the Taliban and that over half the country would be in Taliban hands.

But not to worry, if we can give them even more demAAAAcracy then they'll all become Wisconsin Lutherans.

Huge dollops of aid wouldn't go amiss either.

It'll help the transition from foaming Jihadist to easy going and mild mannered guy from The Great Lakes region.

So sorry UK taxpayers. The Taliban take preference over your kids education, your old folks medical treatment and your rapidly deprecating pension funds.

Tough titty.

And the real kisser of it all is that the US -the CIA- had huge numbers of guys who knew so well the workings of the myriad tribes in the whole area. But of course they weren't listened to by the Bush Administration/NATO and the current disaster is the upshot of all this hubris

Posted by: ewha1 at February 7, 2008 11:59 PM

nemesis:Bloody armchair warriors really grip me.

I'm upset you feel that way, nemesis

Well what grips me is why billions are going into rebuilding a hardline Islamist state. And, let's not fool ourselves here, for the gov't in Kabul is by any yardstick, an Islamist gov't.

nemesis"Do you see what our interpreters go through?"

Well obviously not, as I'm not in Afghanistan. Why you'd think I'd spend one second in an Islamist state is beyond me.

Recently we, the eternally grateful Infidel taxpayers, have been informed that NATO will be Afghanistan for decades.

Hmmmmmmmm 10's of billions a year for untold years comes to...oh....a 1 followed by 20000 zeroes.

So that's why I do a six day week is it? For my taxes to go on some mosque rebuilding in the Hindu Kush?

Oh, yippey yee ai aye.

Posted by: ewha1 at February 8, 2008 12:27 AM

ewah1

You cannot wipe out Islam without committing genocide. My mates and I are not in Afghanistan to commit mass murder. However, if the islamonazis want to send more fighters to Afghanistan then we are more than happy to let them get some.

Fortunately for you people like us are in an Islamist state fighting the war on their turf rather than our own. Better we fight in an Islamist state against jihadists than let the shooting war come to our own homeland.

You worry about the billions and we will worry about staying alive. In addition, do not believe what you read in the press - nobody is training the Taliban. However, Afghans do need to be trained to defend themselves so that we can get home and stop having to defend ungrateful REMFs'

Posted by: nemesis at February 8, 2008 3:47 PM

nemesis: I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about the Afghanistan adventure.

I just think that the Wilsonian naivete we hear from our Western leaders about such places just makes us a laughing stock. Heck, even I started laughing at myself when the silly demAAAAcracy-in-action crap started to appear in the MSM. Pictues of Afghans traipsing off to the polls. I never got the chance to see what gumpgh the candidates were shoving through the letter boxes or spouting on the soap box, but let's take a wild guess

Rights of women wasn't exactly top of the list?

Oooooh, close am I?

How about non Muslims? Were candidates bending over backwards to allay any fears from the Infidel constituents?

No? You mean that the candidates were espousing veiws that would've shamed a Medieval Lord?WOW, I'm shocked, shocked you hear

Perhaps my local area of town should change it's name to "Afghanistan" and receive countless billions in aid. No strings attached, suitcases full of the luverly jubberly, and when it's all spent the local leaders will just hold out their hands and wail for more. Just like the Kabul Gov't.

And you really can't blame Mr Karzai, he just knows how to fleece a fool.

Infidel taxpayers being the biggest of the lot.

Posted by: ewha1 at February 8, 2008 6:25 PM

nemesis:"Fortunately for you people like us are in an Islamist state fighting the war on their turf rather than our own"

But that's the terrible tragedy -or farce- of this whole "Operation Give 'em enough money and freedom and they'll all love us" is that your being on the other side of the World isn't making the Infidels any safer at all.

Just a lot poorer.

Posted by: ewha1 at February 8, 2008 6:37 PM

ewha1

We will have to disagree. I am off back to that country after some R&R so won't be mailing for the next 3 months or so. Just remember that when we are putting our necks on the line to hold back the march of Islam, it does not go down to well for civvies to moan on about how much it costs. Barbed comments and tax bills are far easier to deal with than RPGs and 7.62mm

Posted by: nemesis at February 8, 2008 7:01 PM

Well, all the best, nemesis. My point was, after all, if it's such a waste of Infidel money, then why oh why are Infidel's lives being squandered too? I mean, really.

WHY?

And in a thousand years time, the very same tribes will be fighting each other, just as they've have since....well....forever.

Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan are of paramount importance to the UK or any NATO country so to put our servicemens' lives at risk is criminal

In day's or yore, when leaders screwed up so badly, there would have been riots on the streets. Now, all our esteemed leaders have to put up with is a couple of stroppy postings on the net.

Posted by: ewha1 at February 8, 2008 7:25 PM