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It is idiotic to accuse Barack Obama of being a Muslim or a secret Muslim. He is not. It is not idiotic, however, to attack the miscomprehension of Islam that surely explains such a remark, one he might wish to reconsider, that he would "meet with Muslim leaders" in order to thrash out the things that divide us. What divides America, and India, and Thailand, and the black Africans in the southern Sudan and southern Nigeria from the world of Islam is Islam itself. Islam is a real thing, not a figment of the Western imagination. If anything, the Western world has been running away from coming to grips with that real thing.
Barack Obama, as a child, attended school in Indonesia. At the time, Indonesia was still much more easygoing in its acceptance of syncretism. It had not yet been subject to the changes that came as the years passed and those who had grown up under the Dutch disappeared, and as Arab influence -- with the real, full-throated Islam -- was brought to bear. Now one sees not only the hatred for the Hindus on Bali (a subject about which nothing is written, but visitors to Indonesia know all about it), but for Christians, who have been subject to endless attacks, with thousands of churches destroyed, and only a handful of the physical attacks -- such as the decapitation of those little Christian schoolgirls -- ever making it to the Western press.
In this respect, Barack Obama may have his own childhood memory of Islam, in Indonesia, viewed through the prism of time, or through a watery medium of memory that refracts (Snell's Law!) misleadingly. There is no substitute for study of Islam, of its texts and tenets, and then of the long history, the 1350-year history, of Islamic conquest of non-Muslim lands, and of the subsequent subjugation, or forced conversion, or murder of those hundreds of millions of non-Muslims who fell under Muslim sway.
Even to have asked Zbigniew Brzezinski, or someone such as Robert Malley, to be considered as "advisers" is a bad sign. As for others, one does not know. Samantha Power may, or may not, come to recognize that her main subject, the one that made her career, genocide, and especially genocide in the Sudan, has to be transcended, so as to recognize the ideological roots of this or that genocide. In both the southern Sudan, and in Darfur (where she is careful to tell audiences that it was "Muslim-on-Muslim" violence, as if that meant it had nothing to do with Islam, when, had she studied the matter more, she would have come to realize that Islam is, and has always been, a vehicle for Arab supremacism), she has recognized a problem, deplored it, but not related it to the meaning, and permanent menace, of Islam. Perhaps she will.
But Barack Obama himself will have to be much more specific, and has a duty to be, on the subject of Islam. He tells us he was opposed to the war in Iraq. Fine. But that is not enough. Why was he opposed to the war in Iraq? Was it because he realized that Muslims cannot have "democracy" imposed on them, and that the principles of Islam are not compatible with democracy as that term is understood in the liberal advanced West? Is it because the goals of the Bush Administration were messianic, unattainable, result in a squandering of resources, and in any case, are exactly the wrong goals if one desires to achieve, in Iraq, the only thing that makes sense: an exploitation, by leaving the place, of the fissures, ethnic and sectarian, both present in Iraq, as elsewhere in the Muslim world, and both capable of dividing and demoralizing the Camp of Islam, and thus of buying time for the Western, or larger Infidel world, to educate itself and to come to its senses about the meaning, and menace, of Islamic Jihad?
What is going on in Iraq makes no sense. Those officers and men who are involved in "doing the job" or "completing the mission" are focusing on a narrow task, without considering whether that task makes sense. They do not see beyond Iraq. They do not even see, correctly, the forces in Iraq that will cause the attainment of the American goal -- a stable, unified, possibly prosperous Iraq -- as forever retreating, an ignis fatuus of the desert, a will-o'-the-wisp always seemingly just around the corner, but never to be grasped, as more money, more men (and where have all the captains gone? Long time passing) and matériel are squandered, last year, this year, next year in Iraq. No one can criticize the war from the only perspective that shows an awareness of the danger of Jihad, instead of being based on such airy ideas as "sitting down with Muslim leaders" to "listen to their grievances." This smacks of Chamberlain, or Halifax. Barack Obama is, one would have thought, smarter than that. If he grasps the nettle of the Iraq War, and what is truly wrong with it, he could win. And McCain too. And Clinton. Yes, so could he, and so could any man -- or woman. If they only had the wit to think about it.
Posted by Hugh at February 9, 2008 9:11 AM
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The question isn't whether Obama is really a Muslim or is hiding his Muslim leanings. It's whether other Muslims view him that way. We keep hearing he attended an Indonesian madrassa. Did he begin to learn the Islamic faith? If he is judging the Muslim threat through the prism of his boyhood experience that is a very real issue. He's human. His preconceptions will influence his decisions.
As the son of a Muslim man, will he be considered an apostate? Will Muslims of the world view him that way and will his life be endangered because he professes to be a Christian?
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at February 9, 2008 10:03 AM
Barack Hussein Osama Obama attended Mosque every Friday at a Madrass in Cikini, Menteng, Jakarta, Indonesia.
I have decided long ago after reading many anti-military comments written by Hugh. He attacked Petreaus who is not even a politician.
Posted by: ssa at February 9, 2008 10:17 AM
Hugh has never lived in any Muslim country, doesn't speak Arabic, and never had debated with Denial Pipes.
Hugh does not speak or read Bahasa Indonesia, nor does he know the Pancasila of Indonesia. He does not even know how the Majelis work in Indonesia.
I still can listen to Robert to certain extend, but as to Hugh, he is not very credible.
Posted by: ssa at February 9, 2008 10:29 AM
It's true. I do not speak or read "Behasa" Indonesia. I don't know the Pancasila (?) of Indonesia. I do not even know how the "Majelis" of Indonesia works. And that is why my comments on Islam (and on many other matters) are surely without value.
Posted by: Hugh at February 9, 2008 10:55 AM
Hugh,
What really interests me about all this is, Who is this "Denial Pipes" character whom you have cravenly avoided debating?
Yrs
Robert
at February 9, 2008 11:02 AM
"He tells us he was opposed to the war in Iraq. Fine. But that is not enough. Why was he opposed to the war in Iraq? "
.....it is alwasy better to avoid those closed ended questions (the ones where the answer is either yes or no)...you get much more insight when you ask those questions requiring an actual answer.....Ask Why......?.....Who....?.....How.....?....Please explain....?......and so on....
Posted by: exsgtbrown at February 9, 2008 11:04 AM
PMK asked, "The question isn't whether Obama is really a Muslim or is hiding his Muslim leanings."
No one who isn't a Muslim may enter the al-haram, the sanctuary, for prayer; it is absolutely haram, prohibited, because non-Muslim are najis, unclean.
PMK said, "We keep hearing he attended an Indonesian madrassa."
There are police records available for every district in Indonesia. In Indonesia, when one crosses a district to stay over night, they must report to the rurah, local chieftain. Indonesia is a police state, and no one can escape easily unless he bribes. If you can read Bahasa Indonesia, you may obtain the Obama's police records from the Police District of Menteng in Jakarta, Indonesia. When you finished reading it, you will know Obama is a Muslim. Once a Muslim will always be a Muslim; otherwise, he is a Mutafiq deserved to be made Taqfir.
Everyone lives in Indonesia must carry a KTP or foreign Passport. The KTP stated one's religion, and Obama's said," Agama: Islam." Agama in English means Religion.
There is too much to talk about these Obama lies, but I am tired. This site ,according to Hugh, is not a partisan site, but I kept seeing the contrary.
at February 9, 2008 11:10 AM
"When you finished reading it, you will know Obama is a Muslim. Once a Muslim will always be a Muslim; otherwise, he is a Mutafiq deserved to be made Taqfir."
-- from a posting above
So it is your position that Obama is a renegade an apostate, deserving of death in the Muslim view? Great. I can live with that, and so, I am sure, can Barack Obama. In fact, were I he, I'd mention the fact that "I guess many Muslims consider me an apostate" given their view that "once considered or self-identified as a Muslim, you are in it for life." What's more, were I he, I'd meet, for long discussions, with Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Especially with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Good can come of that meeting. And I'd make sure the press knew about it.
at February 9, 2008 11:38 AM
Obama is left-handed. Muslims are not supposed to eat and handle food with their left hand because it is unclean. I surfed around and finally found a photo of Obama on the internet, eating. He was breaking a piece of bread using both hands. So, he is apparently not an observant Muslim, even if he is a Muslim on a record in Indonesia somewhere. But, as anyone who visits this site knows, once you are on paper as a Muslim in Indonesia, you are stuck that way forever. One of the "freedoms" of religion in an Islamic country, I guess. The freedom to be a Muslim whether you want to be or not.
So, like Hugh says, the main problem with Obama is the same sort of problem as with so many of our other leaders: he is a political opportunist in regard to religion, joining his Chicago church apparently (according to his own literature) in order to further his objectives of political organizing of the people in the neighborhood. And as with so many of our other leaders, he apparently sees no threat in the core teachings of Islam, and if elected, he is likely to take us further down the appeasement path as Chamberlain took Great Britain before WWII. In the meantime, we are still waiting for our Churchill.
Hopefully the pendulum will swing before it is too late.
Posted by: Karl at February 9, 2008 12:24 PM
No one who isn't a Muslim may enter the al-haram, the sanctuary, for prayer; it is absolutely haram, prohibited, because non-Muslim are najis, unclean.
ssa,
Have you seen Obama enter the sanctuary? Do you know that he has? President Bush has visited mosques and no one would suggest he is a practicing Muslim.
Posted by: PMK at February 9, 2008 1:09 PM
Hugh said, “.....And that is why my comments on Islam (and on many other matters) are surely without value.”
My comment: Folks, I want to be fair with Hugh, so I would admit that Hugh’s comments about Islam, for the most part, are still credible, but not for politics or the military.
Hugh said, “So it is your position that Obama is a renegade an apostate, deserving of death in the Muslim view? Great. I can live with that, and so, I am sure, can Barack Obama. In fact, were I he, I'd mention the fact that "I guess many Muslims consider me an apostate" given their view that "once considered or self-identified as a Muslim, you are in it for life." What's more, were I he, I'd meet, for long discussions, with Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Especially with Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Good can come of that meeting. And I'd make sure the press knew about it.”
My comment: Obama is as popular as Jesse Ventura; he also is as incompetent as Jesse Ventura. I would rather that no Muslim sit in Whitehouse, but he may win it fair and square. Being a Muslim, he got supports by overwhelming Black Muslims and Muslim Immigrants. It would be stupid of him, if he consorted with Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali. It’s too obvious and too politically risky.
It won’t make any difference whether it’s Clinton, Obama, or McCain because they will say, “I voted against it before I voted for it.” They are in for power, and they are Liberals and Socialists. None of them will consort with Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, or Auaan Hirsi Ali.
at February 9, 2008 1:39 PM
Pmk,
President Bush did not enter to pray. Court yard at Mosque or conference rooms are OK.
There are rituals to be done before entering al-haram.
As to whether I see Obama entering, you already know.
If you like him, don't like my comment, then feel free. It's a free country.
Posted by: ssa at February 9, 2008 1:42 PM
The thing that scares me about Obama is his immigration policy. I think he wants to bring in Mexicans and Africans just so that they will expand his political power base. That's my fear with him.
I don't hate these people. I just fear that if you make these people citizens, then they will raise your taxes to pay for their benefits.
Posted by: DavidE at February 9, 2008 2:48 PM
It won’t make any difference whether it’s Clinton, Obama, or McCain because they will say, “I voted against it before I voted for it.” They are in for power, and they are Liberals and Socialists. None of them will consort with Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, or Auaan Hirsi Ali.
I wouldn't call McCain a "Socialist" per se; but he is, as a True Believer in the dominant and mainstream dogma of politically correct multi-culturalism, no different than Clinton and Obama (or, for that matter, no different than nearly 90% of Every Damn Body in the West). I presume, to give Fitzgerald the benefit of the doubt, that his calls for Obama to meet with Wafa Sultan, etc., are meant rhetorically, and not with an iota of practical expectation.
Posted by: cantor at February 9, 2008 4:06 PM
"... that Islam is, and has always been, a vehicle for Arab supremacism".
What about the Ottoman empire / Caliphate ?
at February 9, 2008 4:26 PM
I daresay BHO , like most leftists, has no religious beliefs in particular. This does not change the fact that under sharia law, BHO as the son of a moslem is considered a moslem-and apparently many of the Third World moslem population DOES consider him a moslem,an actual moslem, NOT an apostate.
So what, you say? While we certainly should not decide who leads the USA based on the idiotic misapprehensions of subliterate third worlders, it is reasonable to ask how they are apt to respond if BHO is elected. I believe they will take this as a surrender to dhimmitude, and possibly even as a sign of imminent mass conversion. I believe BHO's election will lead to a massive increase in islamic terrorism abroad-and that may include many acts of Sudden Jihad Syndrome here.
And if I'm wrong and BHO IS a Christian-that's almost as bad as him being either an atheist or a crypto moslem. His "Christian" church teaches a heretical mess that seems to have more to do with PanAfricanism/black supremacy than with the tenets of Christianity. If he truly finds spiritual nourishment in the anti white crap taught at that church...HOW can he be president of any but the 12% of the US population that's black, and (to a MUCH lesser extent) the "brown", Asian, 'other', and biracial segments?
BHO is unfit to be president of the USA.
Posted by: labrat at February 9, 2008 4:30 PM
Great analysis Hugh
Anyone, who believes Obama is a Muslim is an idiot. People who use his full name, like ssa to imply that he is, is so ignorant of the truth, they are beyone repair.
To ssa:
Obama raraely attended Juma services. His father was a pasive Muslim. It is actually common for passive Muslims to attend Fridayy prayers, becuas ethey often don't pray at all during the week. Attendance at Juma, means nothing. Do you know anything about Jakarta? Menteng and Cikini are rich neighborhoods (I used to live in Menteng). The mosques there are liberal, and primarily sufi based anyway.
Posted by: Haidon at February 9, 2008 6:23 PM
Obama and his policy of change? Does he mean that Silvery Metal you get back after giving some one Dollars?
"Change" His mind?
"Change" his Underwear?
"Change" his Spouse?
"Change" Sides?
He may not have Voted for the War but there is still one going on.
Just where does this Obama stand on the Issue of "Us or Them"? Just what exactly does he intend to do about it?
It is a bad time for our Country, only having Senators running for the Office.
Posted by: flowerknife_us at February 9, 2008 6:55 PM
Anyone who expects any American president to stand tall and speak frankly about Islam is bound to be disappointed. That's our job; don't look for leaders other than the ones we've got.
Obama has shown the capacity to bring up a subject that other public figures seem afraid to discuss openly: black anti-semitism. This may be because of his pastor's praise for Farrakhan, merely a political ploy, but then again what could not be so considered, coming from the mouth of someone running for office? At least he is willing to speak openly about it. With Obama there is a fair chance for open discussion of the teaching of the jihad ideology in schools, Judeophobia in the Muslim media, the glorification of martyrdom, and a host of other topics. His Muslim connections could be a bridgehead to enable him to speak to the Islamic world, critically but effectively.
If Obama is elected we have a hope that there will be a critical view coming from the White House that will not be instantly discounted in the Muslim world. Do not expect him to meet with ex-Muslims or openly criticize Islam, but he may help open up space for those who do.
Posted by: Quijybo at February 9, 2008 7:40 PM
ssa,
Don't misunderstand me. I only asked if you knew whether or not Obama had worshipped in a mosque. I don't know the answer. Given your comments, I thought you could clarify it for me.
With all the leaders we've seen since 9/11 going into mosques, I wasn't sure how far George W. Bush had gone, either. That was why I asked that question. Thanks for that clarification.
I'm not opposed to your comment. I don't understand why the question of how MUSLIMS will view Obama isn't being addressed, or why Hugh apparently thinks it's beyond the realm of polite inquiry. It's not an accusation to look at Obama's lifetime experience and ask how it would affect his performance in the White House and what it might portend for our relations with Muslim countries. The question isn't how Obama views Islam but how Muslim countries will view Obama and whether that is something Americans should consider before casting a vote.
at February 9, 2008 8:39 PM
Anyone, who believes Obama is a Muslim is an idiot.
I don't care much for those kinds of labels.
If it is true that Barak was born into Islam by virtue of a muslim father, and he was at least a technical, or actual muslim at one time, just exactly when did he stop being a muslim? Is there not a name for a Islamic dropout?
Is it the idea that he 'never' was a muslim? How does that fit with his muslim father and the idea of being born into Islam, and always being a muslim? Maybe Islam just jokes around about that.
He may not in fact be a muslim, but there is something here that does not add up.
Maybe the non idiots can explain it...
at February 9, 2008 8:53 PM
duh_swami,
Don't hold your breath. Those who have seen fit to indulge in name-calling have all decided it's not a fit topic of conversation.
Posted by: PMK at February 9, 2008 9:28 PM
PMK ...I defer to your wisdom ;)
Posted by: duh_swami at February 9, 2008 9:44 PM
The question is, did he ever subscribe to Islam? Did he ever believe or practice Islamic scripture? It appears the answer is no... There are millions of redneck e-mails floating around teh US saying that he refused to swear in on th eBible, turns his back on the flag and is a wahabbi Muslim. Some Americans actually believe this despite the evidence. Look at his record, look at his background, his conversion, his activities at university. He was never Muslim.
Ant any rate, electing him as president would be a disaster. He is clearly the most clueless of all candidates.
Posted by: Haidon at February 9, 2008 10:20 PM
Haidon
I don't mean to be too hard headed, I am just trying to get clarity.
It's easier to escape Islam than I thought...
So if you are born of a muslim father, but you don't read or practice Islamic scripture, you are not a muslim. Is this a common practice? It would seem to me that if thats the case, no apostasy laws are needed, just stop reading and practicing, and you are out. What does Shari'a say about that if anything?
Posted by: duh_swami at February 9, 2008 10:36 PM
You're not being hardheaded. I'm just trying to say to those people who believe that he is a surreptisious Muslim, that they are most likely wrong. He does not believe in the Qur'an or Islam, there is a fairly open record on him, and from all accounts he has been a devout Christian for decades.
Traditional Islam would say that if your father is Muslim, so are you. Technically speaking he was Muslim, but he "constructively" racanted his faith through his actions. I'm pretty sure, that he did this as a child or teenager. This would take him out of the realm of Islamic punishment. From my understanding apostasy is not generally punishment if the apostasy occurs under a certain age. I could be wrong... I know the hudud (punishment) is not severe for children who "leave" Islam or lapse into disbelief.
Posted by: Haidon at February 9, 2008 11:20 PM
Haldon is right on his last point. Robert Spencer blogged on that several months ago, pointing out that if someone leaves Islam as a prepubescent, they are not considered an apostate. (However, in many Islamic countries, they are still stuck for legal purposes as being Muslim and cannot change the record.)
Posted by: Karl at February 9, 2008 11:28 PM
Forget the "is he a Muslim" question? It's quite evident he isn't.
But the idea that the likes of Barak Obama - who bears the distinction of having the most liberal voting record in the US Senate - will somehow "unify" America...is an absurdity that can make sense only to the incredibly naive.
The fact that he is anxious to withdraw from Iraq immediately upon taking office....dovetails with the oft-repeated exhortations of Hugh Fitzgerald himself on these pages. But Hugh wants to make sure he withdraws for all the right reasons.
Does it really matter?
Will the USA be in a position to effect events in Iraq once we've withdrawn? Will the public or our political class have any appetite whatsoever to re-involve ourselves in the aftermath there on behalf of the Kurds or someone else?
Of course not. But that kind of honesty has never figured into the equations of the withdrawal-for-Machiavellian-reasons camp.
By all means, let us turn Iraq over to our enemies, Sunni and Shiite...and hope on a prayer they consume each other in fratricide.
I'll recline now into silence, lest my genuine concern for the well-being of my country and the world...be misinterpreted as the effort of an interloper trying to stir up divisions in the anti-Jihad camp.
Posted by: Cornelius at February 9, 2008 11:30 PM
What would be Islam's/Shari'a's attitude toward a muslim father, who allowed his son to be anything but a good muslim?
Posted by: duh_swami at February 9, 2008 11:39 PM
I don't believe that Obama is a Muslim. He's belonged to the same church in Chicago for 20 years, but he might as well be a Muslim. The church he belongs to is an Afro-centric, racist church that has given anti-semitic, race-baiting, Louis Farrakhan several awards.
Obviously he thinks the same way Farrakhan does, or, at least, he has no moral problems with what Farrakhan believes.
Posted by: rational
at February 9, 2008 11:43 PM
rational
Is is really "rational" to make the last statement you made. Just because he belongs to the same church means he endorses Farakhan or has no moral problems with Farakhan? What planet do you live on? That's a pretty strong statement to make. Keep in mind that while Farakhan is a rabid dog, he is well respected in Chicago for economic development and empowerment. I think many in Chicago and Illinois are willing to forgive him, because of what he has done to resurrect black communities.
But Obama's record doesnt appear to support what you are saying. I'm not sure what his voting record is on Israel, but I'm pretty sure he supports it. I'm pretty sure he also has close associations with pro-Israeli PACs as well.
Posted by: Haidon at February 10, 2008 12:04 AM
Ant any rate, electing him as president would be a disaster. He is clearly the most clueless of all candidates.
Posted by: Haidon
I completely agree.
Posted by: champ at February 10, 2008 12:09 AM
And I believe we may all rest assured that Mr. Obama will never face a press conference or interview in which he has to answer the questions that Hugh has so ably posed.
What a marvelous instrument of the jihad our noble American Press Corps has become.
Somewhere in Hell, the Prophet must be smiling at that thought.
Posted by: INFIDELATLARGE at February 10, 2008 12:29 AM
As an after-thought - it has frequently occurred to me that Mr. Obama may know much more about Islam than we give him credit for knowing.
But we can not know how much he understands of Islamic doctrine until he reveals such understanding to us - that is to say, if he chooses to reveal what he does or does not know about Islam.
It would be nearly miraculous to have one among the few remaining presidential candidates who actually possesses a working knowledge of the most basic tenets of Islam. But then, the age of miracles is long gone.
Unfortunately for the world, Jihad is still alive and very much with us.
Posted by: INFIDELATLARGE at February 10, 2008 12:41 AM
"It is idiotic to accuse Barack Obama of being a Muslim or a secret Muslim. He is not."
You are correct, Hugh, as there certainly isn't any compelling evidence to support that he IS a practicing Muslim. None. In fact, there is evidence to the contrary. So I am in complete agreement with you.
But having said that, I have to wonder, and perhaps naively so, but I have to wonder how he will be PERCEIVED by Muslims worldwide.
Call me crazy. Call me an idiot. But I have to wonder if having "Barack Obama", a processing Christian with a Muslim name; whether this man Barack Obama will embolden Muslims by giving them a false sense of victory over the USA. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but it certainly is worth looking at, especially when you consider the fact that Muslims place so much emphasis ON a Muslim name.
Posted by: champ at February 10, 2008 1:50 AM
I've quoted you and linked to you here: http://consul-at-arms.blogspot.com/2008/02/re-fitzgerald-barack-and-iraq.html
at February 10, 2008 3:45 AM
So his dad leaves him forever. He doesn't change his name. So he becomes a Christian. He still doesn't change his name. It doesn't make him a practicing muslim, it just makes him weird.
Besides, I'm tired of his raging orations every time he wins a caucus. Give it a rest.
Posted by: Bingo at February 10, 2008 7:00 AM
Barak and Iraq? All I know from reading his website that he was against the war before it started. Now I ask you, what kind of Americans were against the war BEFORE IT STARTED? Answer: most Muslims, pacifists and utterly clueless idiots. I'm afraid Barak Hussein Obama belongs to all three camps. He certainly belongs to at least one!
Posted by: patriot at February 10, 2008 7:42 AM
"raging orations every time he wins a caucus."
-- from a posting above
Yes. Very disturbing how the pitch rises, and the same vague phrases -- "Change" and variants on this nearly-meaningless (without more) word, and then the endless, rhythmicall repeated responses, are disturbing, and do not inspire confidence.
Think of tens of thousands of people chanting this way, and being offered the same kind of vagueness, by Lincoln, or Washington. That candidate who is most specific about those "changes" (or about policies) is the one who most deserves to be listened to. This is, or should be, a vote on issues: the war in Iraq and its effectiveness, the intelligent conduct of the larger war of self-defense against Jihad (of which Iraq is a trivial theatre), in which the main instruments are the Money Weapon, Da'wa, and demographic conquest (and not either "terrorism" or combat, qitaal), environmental degradation and anthropogenic climate change (too late to stop, not too late to mitigate), the collapse of schools and of much of higher education (especially dismal in the transmission of culture -- literature, history, with here and there remarkable exceptions), the rate, and kind, of immigration that we wish to welcome or endure, the inexorably growing maldistribution of wealth, with a self-dealing at the top that no appeals to decency or common sense can apparently stop, the cost and administration of health insurance, and so on. The word "Change" or "Change we can believe it" or "Change that is effective" simply will not do.
Nor will it do for people to vote in a certain way so that they can feel good about themselves, having demonsrated to themselves and the world that they are the proud poossessors of a "post-racial consciousness" -- meaning that they are far too keenly aware of race. The same goes for those -- and the inquiring press elicits this-- "it's-time-for-a-woman-in-the-White-Housee people." Really? Just any "woman"? As for McCain, he cannot claim that those who wish to leave Iraq are guilty of "surrender" when many have decided that this is the wrong place, with the wrong goals, but it may well be the perfect place (with its ethnic and sectarian fissures) for the right goals (to weaken the Camp of Islam, and to buy time until many in the Western world, or larger Infidel world, can educate themselves sufficiently about Islam, its texts, tenets, attitudes).
Posted by: Hugh at February 10, 2008 8:02 AM
Hugh,
Obama and Hillary are running for student council president; McCain is running for President of the United States. I hope the voters will recognize the difference.
at February 10, 2008 8:22 AM
Would his voters even care if Obama is a Muslim? Or a Wahhabi for that matter?
It's religion of peace you know. In fact, most on the far left would vote for him because he is a Muslim. It would help ease their guilty conscience's over Gitmo, Iraq, etc... and prove to the world how multi-cultural we are. Obama's Iraq policy reinforces the presumption among many liberals (and Ron Paul types) that "if we leave them alone, they'll leave us alone". Obama is the perfect face to reach out to the Muslim world, showing that we aren't just a bunch of old, white, Christians who like bombing third worlders. It's uber-appeasement time.
I understand that Hugh's reasoning is different, but I believe that is what's behind the left.
Posted by: Kevin Weakley at February 10, 2008 10:24 AM
Obama's stepfather was also a muslim. Is his mother still alive today? Does she wear a burqa? If she lives, where is she?
Posted by: katt at February 10, 2008 10:34 AM
Ok, mom died, I researched as I should have before posting. Sorry. However, what about his brothers and sisters? It seems to me like his relatives are kept in the closet.
Also, it is politically expedient to be a Christian when you are seeking political office in the United States, so who knows if Obama joined the United Church of Christ to help purge any notion that he is still a Muslim. After all Ahmed Ressam had no problem pretending he was a Catholic. I do not trust Obama.
Taquiya is allowed.
at February 10, 2008 11:57 AM
I can see where Obama is not a muslim, not out front anyway, but I still have the nagging question as to how he slid out without any repercussions. It was some male relatives duty, usually the father, to keep him a muslim. Somehow this chain of continuity seems to have been broken...Maybe I am just seeking too much detail...
But, here's some dandy non muslim questions:
If your Pastor/Minister/Priest, started glorifying Charles Manson, how long would you stick with that Pastor? If your Pastor glorified Louis Farrakhan, how long would you stick with that Pastor? If your Pastor glorified one race, and exalted a foreign region, how long would you stay with that Pastor? It's been about twenty years for Obama.
“We are a congregation which is unashamedly black and unapologetically Christian,” says the Trinity United Church of Christ’s website in Chicago. “We are an African people and remain true to our native land, the mother continent, the cradle of civilization.”
Is this something the President of The United States of America, should be 'sticking to'?
Posted by: duh_swami at February 10, 2008 11:59 AM
Haha jokes on me...I did not mean to imply that Obama is appreciative of Charles Manson. I just used him as an example...
Posted by: duh_swami at February 10, 2008 12:17 PM
Bo Barack is not a Moslem. Then why is he named after Mohammad's magical mule? He should change his name to Francis, after the American magical mule of the movies, and after one of the greatest saints of the religion he claims to follow.
Posted by: ebonystone at February 10, 2008 1:39 PM
Sorry -- my first line should have begun "So Barack is not . . . "
Posted by: ebonystone at February 10, 2008 1:45 PM
"I can see where Obama is not a muslim, not out front anyway, but I still have the nagging question as to how he slid out without any repercussions."
Excellent point. This is a nagging question for me, too.
Posted by: champ at February 10, 2008 2:25 PM
But Barack Obama himself will have to be much more specific, and has a duty to be, on the subject of Islam. He tells us he was opposed to the war in Iraq. Fine. But that is not enough. Why was he opposed to the war in Iraq? Was it because he realized that Muslims cannot have "democracy" imposed on them, and that the principles of Islam are not compatible with democracy as that term is understood in the liberal advanced West? Is it because the goals of the Bush Administration were messianic, unattainable, result in a squandering of resources, and in any case, are exactly the wrong goals if one desires to achieve, in Iraq, the only thing that makes sense: an exploitation, by leaving the place, of the fissures, ethnic and sectarian, both present in Iraq, as elsewhere in the Muslim world, and both capable of dividing and demoralizing the Camp of Islam, and thus of buying time for the Western, or larger Infidel world, to educate itself and to come to its senses about the meaning, and menace, of Islamic Jihad?
It was my understanding that he was (as I was) against it for very practical reasons, which were in line with the consensus of most of the Western intelligence agencies and even pre-9/11 Dick Cheney. An invasion of Iraq meant an occupation of undetermined length, resources, and casualties, and consequences such as throwing the country into a sectarian civil war or even splintering into pieces. Most of the thinking-with-their-head crowd knew that replacing a toppled regime with a democracy in that country was one hell of a risky long shot from day one, even if everything had been done perfectly. It certainly wasn't about pacifism, as someone upthread suggested.
Posted by: ChenZhen at February 10, 2008 4:03 PM
Haldon is right on his last point. Robert Spencer blogged on that several months ago, pointing out that if someone leaves Islam as a prepubescent, they are not considered an apostate. (However, in many Islamic countries, they are still stuck for legal purposes as being Muslim and cannot change the record.)
Posted by: Karl
Like Egypt.
Regarding Obama, I doubt he's Muslim, but he is a leftist. He will of course be sympathetic to Islam, and multiculturalism, and have a typical leftist agenda.
I find it amusingly ironic how many Muslims do want Obama to be elected, with the hope, that he is lying and he is Muslim.
See how whipped up they were in the Ellison campaign?
Posted by: Sneakyzionistcrusader at February 10, 2008 5:24 PM
Later I had the chance to visit the homeland of my father and meet Muslim relatives of my including my grandmother. I found that these were people who wanted the same things out of life as people right here in America and worked hard, strive to make a better way for their children, and prayed to God to grant them success.
This is what I will bring to the office of the Presidency of the
United States. I will deal with Muslims from a position of
familiarity and respect and at this time in the history of our
nation that is something sorely needed.Barrack Hussein Obama
I hope he doesn't turn us all into dhimmis.
at February 10, 2008 5:40 PM
If you can read Bahasa Indonesia, here is the link to Suara Merdeka, meaning the "Voice of Independence:"
http://www.suaramerdeka.com/harian/0611/10/nas06.htm
The following is extracted from paragraph 4:
Sewaktu Obama dilahirkan pada 4 Agustus 1961, kedua orang tuanya kuliah di East-West Center University of Hawaii di Manoa. Obama mulanya beragama Islam, tetapi kemudian dia beralih menganut Kristen.
The English translation says, in paraphrase:
Obama was born, August 4, 1996, to a couple who studied at East-West Center University of Hawaii in Manoa. Obama's original religion was Islam, though later he claimed to be a Christian.
I report, you decide.
Posted by: ssa at February 10, 2008 5:54 PM
If you can read Bahasa Indonesia, here is the link to Suara Merdeka, meaning the "Voice of Independence:"
http://www.suaramerdeka.com/harian/0611/10/nas06.htm
The following is extracted from paragraph 4:
Sewaktu Obama dilahirkan pada 4 Agustus 1961, kedua orang tuanya kuliah di East-West Center University of Hawaii di Manoa. Obama mulanya beragama Islam, tetapi kemudian dia beralih menganut Kristen.
The English translation says, in paraphrase:
Obama was born, August 4, 1996, to a couple who studied at East-West Center University of Hawaii in Manoa. Obama's original religion was Islam, though later he claimed to be a Christian.
I report, you decide.
Posted by: ssa at February 10, 2008 5:55 PM
Are we being lied to, or is his islamism being glossed over? Why? If he has been a Christian for 20 years, was he a muslim for 28?
{Classmate Rony Amir describes a young Barry Soetoro as enjoying playing football and marbles and of being a very devout Muslim.
"Barry was previously quite religious in Islam. His birth father, Barack Hussein Obama was a Muslim economist from Kenya. Before marrying Ann Dunham, Hussein Obama was married to a woman from Kenya who had seven children. All the relatives of Barry's father were very devout Muslims"
"We previously often asked him to the prayer room close to the house." If he was wearing a sarong he looked funny , said Rony Amir, Barry's classmate when he lived on H Ramli street in Menteng, Jakarta."}
http://laotze.blogspot.com/2007/01/tracking-down-obama-in-indonesia-part-3.html
at February 10, 2008 7:45 PM
More correction for my last post:
Obama was born, August 4, 1996, to a couple at East-West Center University of Hawaii in Manoa.
I have removed: two words, "who" and "studied," from above.
Posted by: ssa at February 10, 2008 8:32 PM
The following link states that all Obama's documents show that his religion was Islam:
http://www.cived.org/karya/?b=tulisan&tID=26
The reports say that he claimed to be a Christian after marrying a Christian woman, but it's common among Muslim men, who marry a Christian woman, claim to be a Christian when he is among Christians, and claim to be a Muslim when he is among Muslims. What's new? Haven't you guys learned anything about Taqiya?
No Muslim woman can marry a Christian man unless the man converts to Islam first, and there are no limits to Muslim men.
You decide.
Posted by: ssa at February 10, 2008 9:11 PM
The link I provided above also says that Obama attended Madrasa twice a week when in Grade school.
Posted by: ssa at February 10, 2008 9:15 PM
Then why are CNN and other leftists trying to convince us that he was NEVER a muslim--if anything he was one by birth.
I wish some media would dare ask some straight questions and not be so anxious to dismiss the thought. What is he hiding? Are we to believe his classmate who claims Obama was a devout muslim is a liar?
{What if Obama's into Pious Fraud Islam–Hudaibiyah treaty"kiss the hand of your enemy until you can cut it off"? }
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/cover031006.htm
This woman makes a lot of sense.
Hillary makes me barf but I hope she wins over him.
at February 10, 2008 10:17 PM
Katt said," Then why are CNN and other leftists trying to convince us that he was NEVER a muslim--if anything he was one by birth."
The jihadwatch.org, that warns people of the danger of jihad ideology, claimed "It is idiotic to accuse Barack Obama of being a Muslim or a secret Muslim. He is not."
Posted by: ssa at February 11, 2008 8:29 AM
Well, let's just see how liberal Americans react when President Obama is assassinated by some Ikhwanite or Wahhabi because he's technically apostate due to having a Muslim father. Oh, Kepha, watch your damn Schadenfreude!
Posted by: Kepha at February 11, 2008 9:17 AM
On the main post:
I don't think Obama will change his current perception of Islam. Most people, unless they are extremely and unusually inquisitive, stick with the core of an idea or impression unless something radical brings it into serious doubt. If 9/11 didn't bring perception of Islam at least very near to doubt for someone, little will. The situation is probably that Obama sees Islam as a beautiful religion of peace being misused by some handful of extremists.
This is better than the situation with Clinton, who is utterly corrupt, and so whether she sees it as a religion of peace or not is not even the root issue, so much as what will make her more powerful.
Obama is not a crazy person, or a particularly corrupt person, but he seems to have settled on a set of beliefs -- such as the greatness of socialism, gun control, and so on -- and maintained a degree of confidence in them that little could ever shake. His beliefs on Islam are probably similar. This isn't an issue of smarts but more an issue of personality and approach to life.
Nevertheless, he's basically not a crazy person or a moral monster. On the Democrat side, he is far superior to Clinton.
The Republicans are a different issue. For all that they need a shock and restructuring -- given the foreign policy nightmare they've dragged us into, and their abandonment of small government and fiscal responsibility -- they'd be worth considering if they had put up Romney. As it is, given they've moved so far away from small-government fiscal conservativism and toward some sort of freakish looting of the nation, combined with covering up the roots of jihad just as much as any Democrat would. That counts against them.
McCain is in this mould, and I don't trust him a whit given his history, and I don't even think he is rational in the most basic ways; I think he is ruled by emotions, a loose cannon, and mentally unstable.
Sadly these things count in a president, often more than policy, because the office is extremely powerful and new issues are constantly thrown at the president. Temperament thus counts immensely. I liked Bush's 2000 election year policies, I didn't trust his temperament or intellectual approach a bit, and look what we ended up with in the wake of 9/11.
On the issue of Obama's religious history:
The reason "The jihadwatch.org, that warns people of the danger of jihad ideology, claimed 'It is idiotic to accuse Barack Obama of being a Muslim or a secret Muslim. He is not.'" is because you appear to be using the same standard to determine one's religion as the Islamic extremists.
Americans rightly don't determine someone's religion on the basis of his name or father's religion. Obama has been going to a Christian church -- yes, a wacky one, but still Christian -- for very many years at this point. This is either part of a conspiracy theory he's been working on every Sunday for decades, or else the man is not Muslim... unless you think Islam's method of determining religious status is valid?
And if crazy Muslims consider him Muslim, that's their psychosis. If they kill him for that reason, they'll have a hell of a time making nice with leftists from then on, so I doubt even this is a risk. Thus, I don't see why we should especially care, so far as voting goes, that crazy people *might* want to kill him for crazy reasons.
As for why he got out of charges of apostasy so easily: since his childhood he's been living in the US, and out of the public eye until the past few years. Not, say, in Egypt or Pakistan. There have been few people who would know or care about the details of his religious history, until pretty recently.
Yes, I'd like to know more about his thinking of Islam, and the nature of his conversion, and what he now thinks of his childhood religosity. These are important insofar as the provide info on how he'd understand the jihad against us, but they aren't what make or break his claims to currently being a Christian.
Cornelius wrote:
"I'll recline now into silence, lest my genuine concern for the well-being of my country and the world...be misinterpreted as the effort of an interloper trying to stir up divisions in the anti-Jihad camp."
Please don't let those sorts of misinterpretations stop you from airing your view here. You're one of the best educated and carefully thinking people who post here, and also obviously genuine - at least to anyone who isn't paranoid.
The anti-Jihad benefits from a variety of genuine and thought-out positions. An ideological gulag is not what we need; an intellectual market place is.
at February 11, 2008 11:35 AM
Well, I'm not a gambler so I guess the only sure bet (anti-jihad benefit) is John McCain. I know he knows the jihadist threat exists and won't kiss ass to jihadists. The other two will, I'm afraid.
Posted by: katt at February 11, 2008 7:59 PM
"Well, I'm not a gambler so I guess the only sure bet (anti-jihad benefit) is John McCain. I know he knows the jihadist threat exists and won't kiss ass to jihadists. The other two will, I'm afraid."
Convince me that he understands the jihad threat, and isn't just another one of these "religion of peace! handful of extremists!" wankers, and he'll get my vote, despite the war and the funding problems on the Republican side.
How do you know he knows about the threat and won't kiss ass? He's a long-time Washington insider, and the Coughlin incident demonstrates the degree of Islamic infiltration of Washington. Having a black logo with a little star on it, and crackig jokes about how he was "tied up" at the time of Woodstock, doesn't mean he understands much other than how to look tough and militaristic in public.
This election is a gamble. None of the candidates really understand what's going on with Islam. Convincing yourself that one candidate has qualities that he doesn't actually have -- unless you have solid evidence to the contrary? -- doesn't make it less of a gamble.
Posted by: hope_and_justice at February 12, 2008 2:31 PM
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