| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Dhimmi Watch | Robert Spencer | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog |  |
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(IsraelNN.com) Hamas leaders spoke to the Arabic language Ash-Sharq il-Awsat newspaper recently and explained that as Muslims, they are allowed to lie. In an interview printed on Thursday, senior Hamas terrorists explained, “A Muslim is permitted to say things that oppose his beliefs in order to prevent damages or to be saved from death.”This approach, known in Arabic as “taqiyya,” was behind several Hamas leaders’ recent public expression of support for Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, they explained. Senior Hamas terrorists in Samaria, who were recently released from jail, publicly expressed disapproval with the Hamas takeover of Gaza and said they supported the PA forces. The sources quoted in Ash-Sharq il-Awsat explained that the Samarian terrorists’ announcement was not a sign of dissent within Hamas ranks, but rather a permitted use of “taqiyya” to deceive Abbas and avoid prison sentences. – from this news article
Of course taqiyya has its roots in Shi'a Islam. Shi’a who felt the need to lie about their own faith because they were fearful of Sunni Muslims elaborated upon such religiously sanctioned dissimulation. But by now it has its counterpart, with Qur'anic sources, in Sunni Islam. This is important to understand, the next time Tariq Ramadan or someone else indignantly exclaims that "taqiyya" is "a Shi'a doctrine." Its sources are in Shi'ism; deception, including lying about the faith, is part of Sunni Islam as well.
Since we all know that Muslims may lie, may they also tell the truth? Of course they may, and the more forthright they are about it, the happier we should be.
Here's a three-question quiz designed to illustrate how the followers of Muhammad's statement "War is Deception" operate -- sometimes telling what they believe to be the truth, sometimes mingling what they believe to be the truth with falsehood.
Question #1.
The leader of the Arab terrorist group As Saiqa --the one who led "Palestinian" Arab Muslims to massacre hundreds of Maronites at Damour, in Lebanon -- Zuheir Mohsen, said the following to James Dorsey in a 1977 inteview in the Dutch newspaper "Trouw":
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
When he said that, was Zuhair Mohsen lying, or telling the truth?
Question #2.
At the U.N. in 1988, Yassir Arafat said the following:
“The State of Palestine is an Arab State; its people are an integral Part of the Arab nation and of the nation’s heritage, its civilization, and its aspiration to attain its goals of social progress, unity and liberation. [The State of Palestine] is committed to the Charter of the League of Arab States, the United Nations Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [apparently uniquely so, for not a single Arab state subscribes to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but rather to the ‘Muslim’ version – the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights – which vitiates, in every important respect, every single one of the human rights that matter most] , and the principles of non-alignment."
Which parts of what he said were lies, and he knew he was lying, and which parts did he believe to be true?
Question #3.
In the latest issue of The Economist (February 1-7, 2008), the leader of Hamas, Mamoud Zahar, says:
“‘We [Palestinians] were never an independent state in history,’ he notes. ‘We were part of an Arab state and an Islamic state.’”
Is Mahmoud Zahar telling the truth, as he sees it, or is he lying?
And why in this case, and in the other two examples I have given above, does it matter?
Please write on only one side of the blue book.
Posted by Hugh at February 12, 2008 4:32 PM
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I'm reminded of "Galaxy Quest". A sci-fi flick in which the aliens seeking help from humans, are completely unaware of the concept of lying. Too late, they become aware that someone might say one thing and then do another.
I only hope the free worlds leaders will become aware of this concept before we have to defend ourselves from within our own homes, as so many in the world have to do now.
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at February 12, 2008 4:47 PM
Professor Fitzgerald, reading this gives me a head ache and my makes my stomach queasy. I need to go to home now and go to bed so I won't throw up all over the koran and bukhari's hadith and the reliance of the traveller that you made me read for this course.
Posted by: the poetess at February 12, 2008 4:56 PM
So, it must be permissible for Muslims to commit taqiyya about taqiyya! Who would know?
Posted by: Stendec at February 12, 2008 5:04 PM
"Thou Shalt Not Lie"....
...must not apply to Muslims. How convenient. Oh that's right, they don't serve the One True God, or care about what's right or what's wrong; or care about the destructive effect that lying has on society. All they care about is advancing their losing cause on the rest of us.
All allah has to do is hit the override button and then lying becomes sanctioned by his unholiness. One of the perks of being a false god...
Posted by: champ at February 12, 2008 5:14 PM
In an interview printed on Thursday, senior Hamas terrorists explained, “A Muslim is permitted to say things that oppose his beliefs in order to prevent damages or to be saved from death.”
So in other words... an interview with senior "Palestinian" "democratically elected" government representatives.
Posted by: Sneakyzionistcrusader at February 12, 2008 5:25 PM
In an interview printed on Thursday, senior Hamas terrorists explained, “A Muslim is permitted to say things that oppose his beliefs in order to prevent damages or to be saved from death.”
So in other words... an interview with senior "Palestinian" "democratically elected" government representatives.
Posted by: Sneakyzionistcrusader at February 12, 2008 5:27 PM
True. False. True.
It matters because as Anton Schindler, Beethoven's secretary, said in the movie
'Immortal Beloved' ...
"There can be no peace without the truth."
at February 12, 2008 5:36 PM
Champ: ..."or care about the destructive effect that lying has on society."
Exactly. The fact that Muhammad endorsed deception is proof that he was a charlatan. Lying and deception undermine trust between human beings. Lying may hurt the liar even more than it hurts the one deceived (as anyone who has ever told a major lie would know - one always has to worry about letting down one's guard and accidentally exposing the truth in an unguarded moment). Personally, I think that the fact that Islam endorses deception permanently damages infidel relationships with all Muslims. Obviously Muslims read this site. So I ask them to reflect on their own personal experiences. If you knew that your wife or friend or children or whomever thought it perfectly OK to lie to you to protect their own interests, how would that affect your relationship with them? And then imagine how many of us infidels who know about taqiyya feel about Muslims. If you're still capable of empathy, can you grasp why we feel generally distrustful? Can you appreciate what is harmful to relations about endorsing deception as an ethical principle of human conduct? Moreover, if Muhammad endorsed deception on expedient grounds, how do you know that he wasn't deceiving you when he claimed to be a prophet? Think about it...
Posted by: Caroline at February 12, 2008 7:07 PM
Muslims follow the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh and he never said nothing about Taqqiya. You have correctly noted it is a Shi'a invention, but where do they get this belief from?
You have also rightly said Shia's use Taqqiya to save themselves from death by renouncing their beliefs. So let me get this straight. Your claiming Muslims use Taqqiya constantly when you already know Shia's are a minority in Islam and have deviated from the true religion and they use Taqqiya only in times when they feel their live is in danger.
So does it also apply when giving dawah over the internet? Are you threatening my life even though I don't believe in this Taqqiya you are talking about?
Muslims are not supposed to fear another human who is no different to them. They only fear God, whose will it is that my life is to end.
So Taqqiya you could say is a form of shirk- associating partners with Allah swt.
For me to say something which is untrue when giving Dawah, is a huge sin. So this myth about Muslims using 'taqqiya' when talking about their religion, firstly has no basis when you consider why the Shia's use it and secondly is a sin in itself.
It's something I don't believe in so you can continue to use it to say I'm lying but it won't work.
at February 12, 2008 8:17 PM
The entire history of the "palestinians" is built on a long, long progression of lies.
The West's Left-leaning media have transformed many of these lies into the conventional wisdom and in the process, transformed murderous thugs into aggrieved parties who have been terribly wronged.
The Left, wallowing in delusional self-hatred, chastises the West for not doing enough to support the lies, and condemns Israel for "oppressing" a people whose history and culture is a web of lies.
Politicians on both the Right and the Left try to solve problems that are based on lies, and in the process, lie to themselves about the likelihood of success.
It's not only Islam that promotes "taqiyya." It's the media, the Left, and many politicians who lie whenever it meets their needs. The only truth is simply this. In the middle east - yesterday, today and tomorrow - peace is a lie.
Posted by: soflauthor at February 12, 2008 8:47 PM
thesaracen: "Muslims follow the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh and he never said nothing about Taqqiya. You have correctly noted it is a Shi'a invention, but where do they get this belief from?"
Sure - I bet Hamas knows nothing about real Islam. But re the Sunnah of the prophet:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/011-taqiyya.htm
at February 12, 2008 8:52 PM
I didn't know there was going to be a test.....
"taqiyya" - religious lying. I remind the prophet telling some of his followers that if they had to lie in order to kill one of his (Mohammed's) enemies, it was okay.
A religion that gives you permission to sin. I'm still not sure Islam is a religion.
Posted by: tanstaafl at February 12, 2008 9:26 PM
What I consider the key lies:
(1) "...since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism."
(2) "The State of Palestine is an Arab State( OK he probably believes this first bit); its people are an integral Part of the Arab nation and of the nation’s heritage, its civilization, and its aspiration to attain its goals of social progress, unity and liberation."
(3) ‘We were part of an Arab state....'
The Turks ruled 'Palestine' for nearly 400 years , with nary an objection. 'Arab unity' allows the true objection to Israel to be hidden while garnering sympathy from those who buy into the "oppressed people" and "apartheid" narrative.
at February 12, 2008 9:52 PM
OK, I'll embarass myself.
#1
"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.
--Zuheir Mohsen--
Truth.
"For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."
--Zuheir Mohsen--
Truth.
#2
"The State of Palestine is an Arab State; its people are an integral Part of the Arab nation and of the nation’s heritage, its civilization, and its aspiration to attain its goals of social progress, unity and liberation."
--Arafat--
Kitman. Arafat agrees in majority principle but did nothing to actually help the "Palestinian" people. In actuality, it was a necessary sacrifice to the greater good of Islam against Israel, in his estimation.
[The State of Palestine] "is committed to the Charter of the League of Arab States, the United Nations Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [apparently uniquely so, for not a single Arab state subscribes to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but rather to the ‘Muslim’ version – the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights – which vitiates, in every important respect, every single one of the human rights that matter most] , and the principles of non-alignment."
--Arafat--
Taqiyya, inherently false.
#3
"We [Palestinians] were never an independent state in history,’ he notes. ‘We were part of an Arab state and an Islamic state.’"
--Mamoud Zahar--
Truth
Hugh asks:
"And why in this case, and in the other two examples I have given above, does it matter?"
Islam supercedes any cultural nuances, especially in the Middle East. As a matter of fact, Islam supercedes all things, to them, the Islamists. The Palestinians, sacrificial lambs of the Arabic Islamists, are just that. They were and continue to be ignored by the Islamists, with the noted exception of being used as tools for the ultimate goal...Global dominance by Islam, the ultimate vehicle of specifically Arab supremacy... with they, the Palestinians, eternally portrayed as the victim of the Zionists.
I tried my best.
Hugh, please be kind.
Posted by: awake at February 12, 2008 10:32 PM
thesaracan,
Lying is okay in the Sunna under three conditions:
1) in battle
2) for bringing reconciliation amongst persons
3) the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband
-- Sahih Muslim, Hadith number Book 032, Number 6303.
See also Sahih al-Bukhari 3.49.857:
Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba:
That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar."
Posted by: cantor at February 12, 2008 10:37 PM
thesaracen,
Part Two:
The great Sunni Muslim scholar Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti wrote in his book, "al-Ashbah Wa al-Naza'ir," that:
"it is acceptable (for a Muslim) to eat the meat of a dead animal at a time of great hunger (starvation to the extent that the stomach is
devoid of all food); and to loosen a bite of food (for fear of choking to death) by alcohol; and to utter words of unbelief; and if one is living in an environment where evil and corruption are the pervasive norm, and permissible things (Halal) are the exception and a rarity, then one can utilize whatever is available to fulfill his needs."
NOTE: The reference to the consumption of a dead animal is meant to illustrate that EVEN forbidden things become permissible in a time of need.
"...if one is living in an environment where evil and corruption are the pervasive norm..."
What is the modern West for the good Muslim but an "environment where evil and corruption are the pervasive norm"...?
Posted by: cantor at February 12, 2008 10:46 PM
thesaracen,
Part 3:
Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, 'We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'
Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, 'The Tuqyah [taqiyya] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.'''
-- Ibn Kathir's Tafsir (commentary) on Qur'an 3:28.
Ibn Kathir is a mainstream Sunni Qur'anic commentator whose commentaries are still widely read today and form part of the Sunna.
Posted by: cantor at February 12, 2008 10:49 PM
Muslims follow the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh and he never said nothing about Taqqiya. You have correctly noted it is a Shi'a invention, but where do they get this belief from?
Posted by: thesaracen at February 12, 2008 8:17 PM
Qur'an 3:28 plus Ibn Kathir's tafsir commentary.
'Nuff said.
You are done here, Sir.
Nitey-nite.
at February 12, 2008 11:09 PM
thes -
Why are you trying to rehabilitate the "critics" of Islam on this forum - why aren't you trying to rehabilitate the "criminals" within Islam instead?
I asked you a similar question last week, and all you could do was blast me with hot air; so please answer my above question in a calm & reasonable fashion. Thank you.
Posted by: champ at February 12, 2008 11:40 PM
Thesaracen,
Just wondering, mate, if this is you:
http://www.myspace.com/thesaracen
Yes or no?
at February 12, 2008 11:41 PM
Hey Boneshack!
That myspace find is awesome! Guess we'll soon find out whether or not it's actually him. Good one.
Posted by: champ at February 12, 2008 11:45 PM
Thesaracen,
The key clues were this (from the profile):
Influences:First and foremost Allah...(musically) 2pac, Immortal Technique, Jedi Mind Tricks, Klashnekoff, Skinnyman, Lowkey, Jimi Hendrix, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Brian McKnight, Joe, Nas, Paris, OutKast, Method Man, Slash, Dr. Dre, Alchemist, Just Blaze, Timbaland, Kool Keith, Outlandish, Marvin Gaye, Motown records, Guns N Roses, Bob Marley, James Brown, Stoupe, Wu-Tang, Roots Manuva, M.J, Stevie Wonder...(besides music) Saladin, Alex Jones, Kahlil Gibran.
Just asking...
at February 12, 2008 11:49 PM
Champ,
Thanks. We'll find out. The answer should be quite revealing.
Funny, that Muslims have only their Koran. We have the power of a 101-keyboard.
Riddle me that, Batman!
at February 12, 2008 11:54 PM
Interest subject lying. I am reminded of an old Star Trek show were Captain Kurk defeated an authoritarian computer by stating "Everything I say is a lie, I am lying to you right know." The computer proceeded to process the data and started smoking and failed because of the infinite loop of the logic.
Also a few weeks ago someone posted a LINK of a combat soldier and his dealings with the natives in Iraq. You guest it, everyone lied out of habit and advantage even when it was no threat or problem. Pathetic IMHO.
I generally agree with the answers and observations that have been posted, but you got to be on you toes to see the nuance in this lying. I am not very good at it personally. This site and other blogs have helped educate me on this subject. THANK YOU
Proverbs 12:19
Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed.
الأمثال 12:19
الحقيقة تقف امام اختبار الزمن ؛ يكمن قريبا تتعرض لها.
at February 13, 2008 12:21 AM
Im.mad.as.HELL,
Hilarious! Just watched that very episode this past Saturday on network TV.
Proverbs 12:19 Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed.
As I have recommended to readers before, I will say again: Please, please read this book that completely destroys Islam:
http://prophetofdoom.net/Prophet_of_Doom_Islams_Terrorist_Dogma_in_Muhammads_Own_Words.Islam
Download the entire book (as a .pdf document) and read it. It's long (about 1000 pages, with references), but the author Craig Winn has done a magnificent job of analyzing the Qu'ran and the Hadith.
Posted by: boneshack at February 13, 2008 12:48 AM
cantor, and awake -
you observed, I hope, the highly interesting double negative in that sentence from our latest Distractor? - to wit, "Muslims follow the Sunnah of the Prophet pbuh and HE NEVER SAID NOTHING about Taqqiya".
Just a grammatical error, sure.
Nevertheless: the unconscious, M Scott Peck remarks, has "a beautiful and tenacious tendency to speak the truth" (People of the Lie, page 191-92).
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at February 13, 2008 3:05 AM
Yes cantor,but are those hadiths derived from a "classical" Arabic edition? Because you know, Blaaabby,bibby bob, and scobbity scob.
Posted by: We need G.C. Scott at February 13, 2008 5:29 AM
In other words, Islam and the Koran allows and blesses telling LIES.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 13, 2008 5:47 AM
champ,
""Thou Shalt Not Lie"....
...must not apply to Muslims. How convenient. Oh that's right, they don't serve the One True God, or care about what's right or what's wrong; or care about the destructive effect that lying has on society. All they care about is advancing their losing cause on the rest of us.
All allah has to do is hit the override button and then lying becomes sanctioned by his unholiness. One of the perks of being a false god..."
Shows that allah is not the same god as the God of the Holy Bible.
Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at February 13, 2008 5:51 AM
Some time ago on a trip to Morocco I met quite a few liars. I guess the cliché "lying Arab" became a cliché because it has some basis in fact.
Ironically, up until the point when it became obvious I was being lied to, I had naïvely assumed (never having heard of taqqiya) that the Mohammedan was an honest fellow. One even swore by his God that he was telling the truth, even when he was lying his arse off.
Posted by: watling at February 13, 2008 7:37 AM
The Saracen on MySpace is from Bradford. Now there's a surprise.
His page provides a disturbing glimpse into some bizarre parallel underground culture which is about as British as Mao Tse Tung. One of his friends is a gentlemen by the name of K-LASH-NEK-OFF.
If there are many others like him we're in trouble.
Thank you so much, New Labour (aka "the 21.6 percenters"), for promoting multiculturalism.
Posted by: watling at February 13, 2008 7:53 AM
With mahomet's cult, the devil is in the details ... ...literally
Posted by: Infidel33 at February 13, 2008 10:35 AM
Hi, bigcatgirl13106!
"Shows that allah is not the same god as the God of the Holy Bible."
YES - isn't that the truth! Another commandment comes to mind, the first one actually; one that I'm sure most of us already know:
"I am The Lord your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me." Exodus 20:2-3
"You shall have no other gods before me", which means allah, and a host of other false gods, too. So the One True God is the One who is saying that this is a sin, we are only the messenger.
And from time to time I also post this link that outlines why allah is not the God of the Bible:
http://www.truthwatch.info/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=83
Take care!
at February 13, 2008 12:38 PM
HAHAHA! MYSPACE
Wow they're on to me!!!!
I'm afraid that isn't me, I'm a bit more mature than that and I have never been to Bradford. I am from the UK though thats a clue for you. I've heard of Klash-Nek-Off, but he's not my friend LOL.
I'm not Pakistani either. My younger brother does have a Myspace however, but I'll let you do the searching my friends.
cantor- call me a liar if I always lie to maintain or restore good relations. If thats lying then I'm
the biggest liar out there. Your only highlighting something thats great about Islamic law.
I will never accept Prophet Muhammed pbuh said 'go ahead and lie it is not a sin.'
Thats the thing, it is a sin. And to keep doing it destroys the person you are.
You'll find your answer on this website"
http://www.tebyan.net/Islam_Features/Prophet/Ahl_al-bayt/The_Holy_Prophet/2007/12/4/54983.html
Personally If i was in a war, I wouldn't tell my enemy anything. Thats the one of the key rules for soldiers and Intelligence personnel. They have to keep their mouth shut otherwise they risk the lives of their fellow soldiers and the public. Which is why there are laws in western societies which prohibit anyone in the know from revealing information regarding national security. Oh but let's ignore that, when it's Islam it means they are allowed to lie.
Secondly I've used this before; if there is a problem between two of my friends, I try and resolve the situation by not telling the truth. How will it help if I tell the truth and say he said this and that about you? It will create even more problems between the two. I'd rather lie and say 'oh he's been saying good things about you'.
And lastly I will never tell my wife that she is fat or ugly or smelly. One because it will hurt her feelings and two, she will kill me. So apart from those three I have just mentioned where is lying allowed in Islam?
Prophet Muhammed pbuh never said use Taqqiya.
Surah Imran (3:28) Nothing to do with taqqiya
boneshack I thought you had a bit of intelligence mate. Muslims have the Quran and the Sunnah. No other book is as comprehensive as the Quran. It deals with absolutely everything that a human will come across in his/her lifetime. What you can do, what you can't do. What is yet to come, what has already gone. What is expected of a true believer. How to eat, how to pray, how to fast, how to complete pilgrimage, how to behave.
You have 10 commandments and thats it. I can interpret the commandments anyway I want to Interpret them.
Why do you call these scholars who back your claims up 'GREAT' when normally you despise them? Why are they all of a sudden great?
Caroline- then go ask a Hamas member who didn't just come out of an Israeli jail, let's see what he says.
champ- There is only one god. Who created you, me and everything that is in the heavens and the earth. He is the same God who created Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed may peace be upon them all. The message has always been the same: worship one god. Can you elaborate on what you mean when you qoute ' you shall have no other Gods before me.' To me that only means worship one God.
Your question has a simple answer: you tell me what I could possibly say to people with rage and anger in their hearts, who have lost their whole family, their homes, are starving and have nothing to live for? What could I say that might change their minds? What they are doing is wrong but there's nothing I can do about it. And it's nothing to do with Islam. Islam did not start a war between Iraq and the West. If there was no wars in Muslim lands, you would never have heard of terrorism in Muslims lands, I assure you of that.
Terrorism happens in any country where their is unrest. Social unrest is to blame for terrorism in Iraq, in Afghanistan in Palestine, in Somalia.
Islam didn't drag the west into Iraq. This terrorism is happening because there is a war not because of Islam.
I mean would you accept the excuse of a murderer claiming he murdered because of his society and the way he was living. You would never accept that. Your thinking is that he's a murderer nothing else.
But for Muslims the goalposts shift; 'it must have something to do with their religion. I mean Muslims can't commit terrorist acts because of any other reason. It can't be the fact that they are in war.'
I've said this before, you need to separate the actions of one person and Islam. God did not say Muslims cannot sin. We are human after all. This also applies to things such as Honor Killing and discrimination against woman. Just because the people say they are Muslim, that does not mean they follow every teaching of Islam. A lot of them do, but the ones in power and a fair few in the general public usually don't. Couldn't it be possible that they mistreat woman and kill out of honor because of ignorance of their teachings? Like I said Muslims are human couldn't it be a possibility that anger and pride (human feelings) prevailed and lead to them killing. Sticking to traditional culture is a big problem for many Muslims especially in countries like India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Somalia.
But God punishes those who are ignorant of his laws.
Islam is not this monster you all think it is. Actions of a minority make it seem so. But its not like these same actions are non-existent in the West is it?
at February 13, 2008 2:41 PM
Thesaracen,
boneshack I thought you had a bit of intelligence mate. Muslims have the Quran and the Sunnah. No other book is as comprehensive as the Quran. It deals with absolutely everything that a human will come across in his/her lifetime. What you can do, what you can't do. What is yet to come, what has already gone. What is expected of a true believer. How to eat, how to pray, how to fast, how to complete pilgrimage, how to behave.
Comprehensive? Are you absolutely sure about that?
Please, no answer is required.
at February 13, 2008 3:22 PM
thes -
Thanks for writing. And not telling your wife that she "smells" is probably a good idea! That was really funny! I appreciate the same loving consideration from my husband, too. LOL!
OK - there is a huge difference between the God of the Bible and Allah of the Qur'an. The biggest, and most striking differences, can be seen in the lives led by their founders: Jesus Christ & Muhammad.
**NOTE: It's important to know that most Christians believe in what's called the Trinity, and that they do not separate Jesus Christ from God the Father - the two are One - and that the Holy Spirit is the third member of the Trinity. Basically, most Christians believe that the 3 make up One God.
And I know that you don't like long essays, and quite frankly, neither do I; but I would like for you to please read a short excerpt from the Truth Watch link I posted in my above comment, because it best explains exactly why I believe WHAT I believe: that God & Allah are not one in the same.
Here is the excerpt:
"Conclusion: That Allah cannot be the God of the Bible is evident in the Quran and in other Muslim religious writings. Islam is simply a Seventh Century pagan Arabian religion that adopted an existing tribal moon god as the one true god and was forced on the Arab people by a self-proclaimed prophet."
"Its spread has not relied on the force of its arguments or proof of its truth. Rather, its expansion depended on military force and subjugation. The Jihad sanctifies murder and warlike violence. Muhammad himself led 27 Jihads."
Additionally - and this is not long - the second link I've posted below shows a comparison between Jesus & Muhammad. Please read it, because then you will understand where I am coming from.
You do not need to agree with me, not at all, nor do I need to agree with you; but at least it best answers your legitimate questions about whom I believe God to be, so that you can (hopefully) understand my position on the subject as well.
Here's the second link:
http://www.christring.org/shortseries/jesusormuhammad.htm
at February 13, 2008 3:35 PM
No answer is required indeed. I'll leave that discussion for another time.
This discussion is about Taqqiya and I've addressed it. What have you got to say on the matter. I know it's a blow that your Myspace find wasn't me but let's leave that aside.
I wouldn't mind you and your cohorts further discussing Taqqiya since you have labeled it at me many times.
And Boneshack I have so far kept away from discussing the Bible and the Torah in depth out of respect for your religions and your beliefs, but if I do, I can guarantee you will not be able to answer.
at February 13, 2008 3:36 PM
Thesaracen,
I find all three concepts of taqqiya, da'wa and kitman completely repulsive, no matter from whose mouth it comes from.
My friend, I couldn't care less if taqqiya is a wholely Shia' manufactured practice. So we can agree on that point.
Moreover, for non-Muslims, the 'deceptions' coming from any Muslim's mouth, or writings, are still 'deceptions'. So before you get out your pitchfork and condemn this statement as being against all Muslims, I assure -- it is NOT.
If I could just yell out across the world and tell all these self-appointed potentates (big wigs) of Islam to just STFU, would they listen? Hell no.
So, for you and all your brother Sunni Muslims who condemn this practice, bravo! Don't do it, and don't try it.
As for the Myspace thing, I was just bored last night. No harm intended. (But it did look suspicious, though.) My apologies.
Taters.
at February 13, 2008 4:34 PM
Thesaracen,
If you really want to read a great debate on the subject of deception, go here now, and read all (including the comments from 7 Feb), and jump in there if you feel so strongly on this subject.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019931.php#more
at February 13, 2008 4:39 PM
boneshack if I was a shi'a, Taqqiya wouldn't apply here anyway my friend. Are you threatening me with death? You're confusing Taqqiya to mean deceiving someone about Islam.... NO! Thats not what it is. It is a method of saving your life when it is in danger. Basically the Shi'as renounce their beliefs, so it doesn't apply to me as I'm not in danger of losing my life. Taqqiya, deception, lies, falsehoods, call it whatever you want, Islam does not approve of it.
Well champ I'm not married. I'm just stating something that I definitly wouldn't say especially to my future wife.
I don't agree with you regarding your views on God. Firstly this belief of Trinity was not something preached by Jesus. It is not mentioned in the bible and causes great confusion as to how best to explain it. It is mentioned in the Quran however:
O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
(4:171)
You go on to say Islam was a pagan religion that worshiped a tribal moon god. If thats the case, where did Christianity come from since Judaism preceded it. It was not a pagan religion, it in fact came about to get rid of idolatry and paganism and remind people to worship one God alone.
I've also heard the claim about the moon god many times. Like I said Islam came at a time when people where worshiping a moon god and many other idols. But Islam destroyed that idolatry and this moon god your talking about has no bearing on Muslims. If we worship a moon god and we read the Quran, the Quran clearly states many times that God created the moon and He has even instructed us not worship the moon:
Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve.
(41:37)
Islam was not forced upon the Arabs at all. The ruling Arabs were cruel people who subjected the Prophet pbuh and the few early Muslims to terrible treatment. They chased them out of Mecca to lands such as modern day Ethiopia because they despised Islam and the Prophet. It's expansion only happened because people saw the light and beauty of this religion and God's message preached by Prophet Muhammed pbuh. How do you explain how Islam reached lands such as Indonesia and Malaysia.
Islam spread because the Meccans saw the courage of the Muslims as they were oppressed and converted. Islam spread as rulers from foreign lands were invited to embrace it and some did. Islam spread because it withstood the ferocious attacks from the Quraish. Prophet Muhammed pbuh never forced a people to convert against their will. The humanity and kindness of the Muslims and their allegiance to God were the factors that compelled people to believe in the one God as they did. For years Prophet Muhammed pbuh took attack after attack and did not retaliate. At one point he went into a city called Ta'if to preach. The children were let loose on him and he was injured as a result. Angel Gabriel then appeared to him and said 'you can destroy the town by invoking Allah if you wish'. Prophet Muhammad pbuh declined only to allow future generations to embrace Islam. Are those the actions of the 'warrior Prophet' you speak of?
The 27 jihad's you are referring to- I'm not sure if thats the actual figure- were predominantly against the Quraish. They were innocent people were they? They were the worst people you could imagine. Others were against the Byzantines and the Persians who were far stronger armies than the Muslims. They only attacked because they saw the change that was taking place in Arabia not because Prophet Muhammed pbuh attacked them but the fact that they felt threatened.
After the Muslims grew in number and returned to Mecca, did the Prophet pbuh slaughter the same people who tortured him for so many years forcing him into exile? The Prophet pbuh did no such thing and allowed the people to go free stating:
"I will treat you as Prophet Yousuf (Joseph) treated his brothers. There is no reproach against you. Go to your homes, and you are all free."
Islam spread even further as people saw the kindness of the Prophet pbuh first hand. The enemies who fled returned and gradually accepted Islam. Is that the forced conversions you keep referring to?
Prophet Muhammed pbuh like all the other Prophets of God was an extraordinary man. Tolerant, kind, wise, humble. I won't deny he was involved in battle but they were definitely in defence of the Muslims. The Prophet pbuh would never aggress. And in these battles the numbers of the enemy were far, far greater than the number of the Muslims-did the Prophet pbuh flee? What a courageous man. His legacy remains intact to this day.
Then you compare Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammed may peace be upon them. Both were great men but were different in their characteristics. Their message however was the same: worship one god alone.
I've read the website you quoted and some of it I agree with no doubt, other points I'll highlight in my next post.
at February 13, 2008 6:34 PM
Hi thes -
I will give your post a careful read after dinner, and then respond to it later on this evening. Thanks for your reply.
Posted by: champ at February 13, 2008 7:16 PM
Thesaracen,
"Taqqiya, deception, lies, falsehoods, call it whatever you want, Islam does not approve of it."
Fine. Since the original intent of this thread was a quiz, let's return to the topic at hand, and take Hugh's quiz.
Here are my thoughts.
Question 1:
He's lying.
Question 2:
Sentence 1 - Truth
Sentence 2 - Lie
Question 3:
Telling the truth (at least from my analysis of history).
Did I pass?
at February 13, 2008 8:00 PM
thesaracen:
if there is a problem between two of my friends, I try and resolve the situation by not telling the truth. How will it help if I tell the truth and say he said this and that about you? It will create even more problems between the two. I'd rather lie and say 'oh he's been saying good things about you'.
at February 13, 2008 10:53 PM
thes:...."Firstly this belief of Trinity was not something preached by Jesus. It is not mentioned in the bible and causes great confusion as to how best to explain it."
Out of respect for other posters, I don't want to spend too much time discussing the Trinity issue on this thread; but if you're truly interested in studying up on this in more detail, then I would encourage you to refer to this link:
http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/trinity.shtml
Also, you are correct in stating that Jesus never used the term Trinity in the Bible, but you are incorrect in stating that the term Trinity is not mentioned in the Bible because it is - not directly - but it is implied and supported by many collaborating scriptures to which the above link offers extensively.
thes:...."Then you compare Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammed may peace be upon them. Both were great men but were different in their characteristics."
From the link I provided in an earlier post, the one comparing Jesus & Muhammad, it states this about Jesus & Muhammad:
"17. Jesus is God's Word and God Himself. John 1:1, 14"
"17. Muhammad was only a warner. Qur'an 29:49"
thes:...."Their message however was the same: worship one god alone."
Yes, you are correct, their message was the same, but with this key difference: Jesus stated He was God in the flesh, something Muhammad never laid claim to; so that sets Jesus apart from Muhammad, and every other human being as well.
This is an EXCELLENT source: Jesus - God or Man: http://www.christiananswers.net/kids/ednk-jesusgodorman.html
Until another time.....Take care....
at February 14, 2008 1:49 AM
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