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Marching against Fitna in modern, moderate Turkey.
Still, the riots and violence that Europe and the world was so afraid would come in the film's wake has not come. That could change any day, of course, but its absence may indicate that at this point the emphasis from the OIC and other Islamic entities is on obtaining actual restrictions on freedom of speech in the West, not on further demonstrations of what will happen if freedom of speech is not restricted.
Posted by Robert at April 4, 2008 12:33 PM
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By all means let them join the EU. Then these "moderates" can wander Europe at will.
I need to make me sign that says "We will not forgive people who behead Christian school girls for being Christian".
Posted by: walterc![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at April 4, 2008 12:44 PM
What? Did they run out of "Will Bomb for Virgins" signs?
Posted by: Lori B. at April 4, 2008 12:44 PM
Muslim hubris is nauseating.
Who gave them the authority to judge and therefore to be unforgiving? Not I.
For me to ask forgiveness from these arrogant bastards presumes I believe I'm wrong about Islam. Thanks to Robert and Hugh, et al, I'll not be making that confession.
Me asking forgiveness further supposes that I see Muslims as in some way lording it over me and I must therefore bow and scrape, even when I am right. Never ever gonna happen.
This truly is a struggle... good against evil.
Posted by: undaunted
at April 4, 2008 12:50 PM
And WE will not forgive those who fly jetliners into our cities' highrise buildings (in order to kill thousands of "unbelieving" civilians) for no other reason than the attainment of Islamic "martyrdom.'
Posted by: pythagoras at April 4, 2008 12:50 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080404/ap_on_re_af/somalia_pirate_attack
French ship seized by pirates off the coast of Somalia.
" PARIS - France's Foreign Ministry says pirates have seized control of a French cruise ship off the coast of Somalia.
A ministry official says details are scarce about Friday's attack. It is not clear whether any passengers are on board or how many crew members are on the vessel. The ship is in the high seas in the Gulf of Aden."
Posted by: morguerat at April 4, 2008 12:54 PM
What pythagoras said.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 12:57 PM
I think you will find this interestin readin. I hope it's true.
http://pajamasmedia.com:80/blog/muslims-leaving-islam-in-droves/
Richard Garnache
Posted by: old fogey at April 4, 2008 1:04 PM
Muslim hubris is nauseating.
Who gave them the authority to judge and therefore to be unforgiving? Not I.
For me to ask forgiveness from these arrogant bastards presumes I believe I'm wrong about Islam. Thanks to Robert and Hugh, et al, I'll not be making that confession.
Me asking forgiveness further supposes that I see Muslims as in some way lording it over me and I must therefore bow and scrape, even when I am right. Never ever gonna happen.
This truly is a struggle... good against evil.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 12:50 PM
I agree. Like we care if they don't "forgive" us! What a laugh! "Hubris" is right! Get over yourselves!!!
at April 4, 2008 1:05 PM
And I certainly hope all sensible people will NEVER forgive even “moderate” Muslims for being such imbeciles as to accept as divine what was obviously a 7 th century con spiel by an imposter to acquire as much power, women & loot as possible so that Muslims are now the most despised group of arrogant @#$#-heads on the planet.
Posted by: FM at April 4, 2008 1:12 PM
I hope it's true, too.
But...
What about the Muslim birth rate v. the Christian conversion rate?
What about jailed Blacks and Hispanics converting to Islam?
What about US street gangs and narco-terrorists in South America working hand-in-glove with the IslamoNazis?
What number of Muslim converts to Christianity are faking it, lying to their new 'brothers' in order to infiltrate Crusader ranks?
My stick's staying on the ice.
Go Redwings!
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 1:14 PM
Yea, what FM said. Too.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 1:16 PM
Our freedom of speech in America is an essential component of liberty. Since our liberty, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, comes from God, our freedom of speech comes from God.
Our God - the God in the Bible - has given us liberty and freedom of speech. Their god denies liberty and freedom of speech.
Our God is not the same as their god.
Posted by: Storm-Rider at April 4, 2008 1:19 PM
Actually, none of the Muslims have the right to BE offended, nor to consider forgiveness.
None of them happen to be either the (false) Prophet (Mohammed) OR the Qur'an (unless there has been some sort of dimensional rift like on Quantum Leap or something), so really it's irrelevant as to whether they feel any "offense" due to the creation, distribution, and/or public display of the highly credible film, "Fitna."
According to their own words, they are not a party to the "offense," which, in reality, is the exposition of TRUTH.
But then again, "Fitna" uses their own words as well, and we KNOW that it's all propaganda, right???
Posted by: Lori B. at April 4, 2008 1:21 PM
undaunted;
Your "but" is well taken It would seem, however, that more muslims recognize the evil of Islam than the PC dhimmies of the west.
Posted by: old fogey at April 4, 2008 1:24 PM
"We will not forgive..." isn't this the 'religion of peace and tolerance? Doesn't nearly every surah in the Quran start with "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful".
Obviously forgiveness is not part of that!
Posted by: James at April 4, 2008 1:32 PM
The man's sullen expression in the photo really cracks me up. Talk about taking yourself too seriously! He really means business! Oooooo, I'm scared!
Update: A second "DEFEATJIHAD/JihadWatch.org" sticker adorns my vehicle. As I applied it this morning, I thought about yesterday's Mystery Mohammedan who peeled off the first one. Nuts to you - I got two! LOL
Posted by: darcy at April 4, 2008 1:47 PM
I hope you're right, Fogey.
Um... I didn't mean to be contradicting you.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 1:47 PM
Good for you, Darcy !!!
Posted by: Lori B. at April 4, 2008 1:49 PM
I still want to know how Fita "insulted' the quran and mo-bomb-ed.
Posted by: Elric66 at April 4, 2008 1:53 PM
"We will not forgive those who insult Prophet and Qoran"
Frankly, Muslims strike me as very insecure about their own faith. A people that have to scream their brains out, threaten and kill anyone that insults their religion, can't be too confident about what they believe.
It's if they're fearful that someones going to poke a hole in the wall that's been erected around them since childhood, and the whole damn things might come tumblimg down.
The Western response to all this insecurity is to churn out even more FITNAS, and never offer apologies for telling the truth.
They need to be told the truth.
Posted by: rational at April 4, 2008 2:08 PM
The violence and the rioting hasn't come because maybe, just maybe, the Muslims have caught on that if they did that they would become a pawn in their own game.
Geert Wilders told the truth. They know it and we know it.
Posted by: Hadassah at April 4, 2008 2:11 PM
Our freedoms come from God, as it says in the US Constitution, the actual basis of law in the US.
Oh wait; God is only mentioned in the date in the Constitution.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 2:12 PM
The cruel, corrupt, Ottoman Empire (the last 'Caliphate')is a matter of record and I knew about the genocide of Armenians and Assyrians but a full-blown pogrom and kristallnacht in 1955??? Did you know about this? I didn't!
http://chicago.agrino.org/turkish_pogrom_against_the_greeks.htm
at April 4, 2008 2:14 PM
Darcy said:
The man's sullen expression in the photo really cracks me up. Talk about taking yourself too seriously! He really means business! Oooooo, I'm scared!
This photo would go great with the cell phone commercial, where "So-and-so isn't going to answer your call because he's a dillweed and doesn't get any bars in Turkey, so when you call LIKE 30 TIMES about Motorhead tickets tonight ... he isn't going to answer."
Posted by: Lori B. at April 4, 2008 2:17 PM
"Our God is not the same as their god."
Posted by: Storm-Rider at April 4, 2008 1:19 PM
Actually, Storm-Rider, it is. They just missed the Jesus bus, and now they're pissed off at the public transportation system. They even have the same set of archangels. And "allah" is not a name, just their word for God.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they have any justification for their actions, just pointing out an interesting fact most people don't know.
Oh, and go Red Wings.
Posted by: old.grimm at April 4, 2008 2:17 PM
They aren't rioting because they don't disagree with Fitna.
The only people who are offended are self-hating Western liberals and soi-disant "moderate" muslims who claim the juxtaposition of the Qur'anic verses with the violent acts is biased.
If you want to see Muslims rioting in the streets, a sober portrayal that asserts a link between the religion and the acts, to which many muslims would confess if pressed, is not going to do it.
What will work is clear mockery of their religion as was seen in the Muhammand cartoons and as was going to be seen in that young ex-Muslim Dutch MP guy's animated piece; a piece that won't be finished because of threats.
When you're talking about the Muslim world you're not talking about sophisticated people. They are going to react most strongly to blatant ridicule.
I say we should pour the ridicule on.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 2:19 PM
Actually, Storm-Rider, it is.
I think people like Storm Rider would assert that Allah is as much the same god as Yahweh as Ba'al is.
It's a common meme around these parts to refer to Allah as Satan.
Personally I think Allah is really the Easter Bunny.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 2:22 PM
non-croyant,
Yes, our liberty is a natural right, and it comes from God as stated in the Declaration of Independence.
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights were completed 13 years later, and those documents were designed to secure our God-given liberty - to enumerate our liberties and secure liberty - not usurp God in an attempt to become the source of our sacred liberty.
"That to secure these rights governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...."
Our liberty comes from God - so said our founding fathers. I'll stick with our founding fathers, and their God - the God that is in the Bible.
at April 4, 2008 2:26 PM
The truly ironic thing is that American stomachs churned at the L&O:SVU episode where a self-described "messiah" molested the daughters of his followers, taking one as a "wife," and murdered one of his other wives' husbands, yet hardly any of the same are even aware of the murderous, pedophilic "prophet" of Islam.
I'd like to think that if they knew, they wouldn't protect Islam so much ... but a bluish-gray complexion (due to my breath-holding) would not be a good look for me.
Even if a serious film were made about the (false) prophet Mohammed, which showed him molesting that little girl, the people in all of these reports would riot.
To paraphrase Jack Nicholson: "They can't HANDLE the Truth!!!"
Posted by: Lori B. at April 4, 2008 2:27 PM
"Our God is not the same as their god."Posted by: Storm-Rider at April 4, 2008 1:19 PM Actually, Storm-Rider, it is. They just missed the Jesus bus, and now they're pissed off at the public transportation system. They even have the same set of archangels. And "allah" is not a name, just their word for God. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they have any justification for their actions, just pointing out an interesting fact most people don't know. Posted by: old.grimm
You need more study before pointing next time, grimm.
YHVH is rational and knowable, Allah is capricious and absolutely transcendent. YHVH rewards with his presence, Allah rewards with a priapism. YHVH does not delight in damnation, Allah is throughly obsessed with it. They are nothing alike.
Re-read Pope Benedict's Regensburg address,Faith and Reason, including the full quotes from Manuel II Paleologus and Theodore Khoury. Maybe then you can relearn to point.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 4, 2008 2:28 PM
They meant to state:
"We will not forgive those 'Who Tell The Truth About' Prophet and Qoran"
Islam = Religion of Antonyms
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 2:32 PM
morguerat, another word for 'French pirates' is muslims.
I hate this 'pc' crud.
As were the Barbary pirates muslims. Because the fact they were not labeled as muslims on a jihad - we never look at the Barbary pirates correctly. It is just more of the same in a different decade.
Posted by: R_not at April 4, 2008 2:33 PM
ROFLMAO, Concerned Citizen ... "Allah rewards with a Priapism!"
New commercial idea:
" ... and if your Islam-induced Priapism lasts for more than 4 hours, consult an imam."
Posted by: Lori B. at April 4, 2008 2:36 PM
On second thought, maybe I should change that last part to:
" ... consult al-Zawahiri."
(Cuz nothing would work better at killing the mood than THAT mug ... ok, well maybe a closeup photo of al-Sadr's teeth.)
Posted by: Lori B. at April 4, 2008 2:40 PM
Re-read Pope Benedict's Regensburg address,Faith and Reason, including the full quotes from Manuel II Paleologus and Theodore Khoury. Maybe then you can relearn to point.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 4, 2008 2:28 PM
ACK! My point is parried and I am left open to a counter-point.
I'll go read that now. And when I have returned, my point will be pointier than ever.
Posted by: old.grimm at April 4, 2008 2:40 PM
Yes, Storm Rider, I am happy that there was enough Hellenistic influence on the development of Christianity that the Christian Framers of our laws were Enlightened enough to write a Constitution, based on British and Roman law, that did not explicitly appeal to any God by name in order to grant us our inborn rights.
They were the ideological heirs of Socrates who said, almost 400 years before the birth of Christ:
If you offered to let me off this time on condition I am not any longer to speak my mind... I should say to you, "Men of Athens, I shall obey the Gods rather than you.
Yes, true non-Christian genius Deists like Thomas Paine aside, I am proud that the Christian Framers of our laws, despite any beliefs in 4 millennia-old tribal war gods they might have had, were prescient enough to know that establishing a nation that was officially Christian, regardless of the undeniable fact that it is culturally Christian, would have been a disaster for everyone.
Regardless of how secular your country is, however, if there are enough religious types throwing their weight around it might not matter - take a look at present-day Turkey for example. It's dangerously close to sliding backward society-wise because of those ignorant elements who abide in its officially secular society.
It would be a shame for regress to happen anywhere on Earth.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 2:46 PM
Anvil has been hacked again so I have taken the site down temporarily.
Outlaw Islam.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2008 2:56 PM
non-croyant,
I believe you and I agree on much. The true genius of acknowledging God as the source of our sacred human rights is that they can’t be justly revoked by any man or any organization or any government - they may only be unjustly revoked by criminality, terrorism or tyranny. This simple fact is what underlies the religious nature of the founding of America.
America was not founded on the Christian religion; it was founded on Judeo-Christian values, which are in part derived from ancient Greece and Rome. We have separation of church and state - and I thank God for that - but we do not have separation of God from state. Separation of God from state is what led to the evils of Nazism and Communism.
The God that was put into our state - The United States of America - is the same God of our founding fathers - the God of the Bible - not the god of the Koran.
Posted by: Storm-Rider at April 4, 2008 2:56 PM
YHVH is rational and knowable, Allah is capricious and absolutely transcendent.
The thing I like about Yod-he-waw-he is that he actually makes deals with the Hebrews. We know them as "covenants." The Hebrew word is berit if I recall correctly.
I'm not going to totally whitewash Yahweh - sometimes he is depicted as a monster, but Allah would never deign to make a contract with human beings.
You can see this theme repeated when Satan pleads our case to Yahweh in Job, and when Jacob wrestles with the angel.
In some ways I think that makes Judaism the first humanist religion we know of. Human concerns are shown as important and humans have a voice - even with god.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 2:58 PM
The true genius of acknowledging God as the source of our sacred human rights is that they can’t be justly revoked by any man or any organization or any government ...
At the same time, if we assert that our rights are endowed or granted by god, then governments might not be able to revoke them, but people who claim to speak for god might try.
My answer is that, regardless of origin, human rights are absolute and universal - the Buddha said he didn't care whence came the arrow; he was just concerned with removing it - and cannot be taken away by anything or anyone, and that includes Allah and Yahweh.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 3:10 PM
Hugh posted a thread at DW about Muslim foot-baths in the Indy airport. Another angle on hubris.
Why can't 'leaders' lead? Why can't they just say NO! to the Muslims.
No to your god.
NO to your religion.
NO to your lies.
NO to your demands.
NO to your anger.
NO to your 'honor'.
NO to your 'prophet.'
NO!
NO!
NO!
Go back to the sand and kill and molest one another all you want there in the sun.
GO!
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 3:19 PM
"We will not forgive those who insult Prophet and Qoran"
Guess what, dude, I really don't want your forgiveness when I've done nothing wrong!
However, I'm willing to forgive you for your arrogance and for your terrorism, because that's how we people of the Book are.
Read the Book (the Bible); you just might learn something.
Posted by: PersonOfTheBook at April 4, 2008 3:25 PM
Reading some Voltaire and Thomas Paine might also do them some good.
Regarding the foot baths - I think I suggested a solution to that problem over in that thread.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 3:26 PM
non-croyant,
If our universal human rights come from man they are in fact reversible by man, and therefore not absolute.
Human rights derived from man are not human rights at all, they are just a veneer of human rights - whatever an elite group of people decide for them to be while they are in power. Well, history tells us that such elite groups - oligarchies in effect - become the enemy of real human rights. This is exactly what happened in Nazism and Communism.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely - a government that is empowered to rule over human rights is the scariest and most evil thing that I could imagine. God forbid that this vision ever metastasizes to America, for it is truly a cancerous and un-American idea. This is the idea of tyranny, and of the United Nations.
As for Islam, their god is simply not a god of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. That god is a god of death, subjugation and misery.
at April 4, 2008 3:27 PM
This is total madness that is happening inside europe and the west, do people understand what can happen to millions of human beings if the Muslims gets the power to attack all of us who do not follow madness?
The system here in the U.S.A. Is now in the hands of people who hate freedom and want a one world madness and it can happen the muslim can take power, and if this evil happen's forgive all the ideals that people for over 2000 years have died for and live for and endure pain for? and yes people have fear of the future and people see violence happening inside europe and are afraid for life and family and ideals, just 65 years ago millions died for ideals on both sides millions of little ones children who did no evil acts against anyone and millions of good looking woman killed by total madness ask if you want to see that happen once more inside europe? you have the power to see and stop evil by standing up and saying no to the muslim mass assassins, and if europe becomes muslim mass evil will happen to all people on this good earth. it is up to people to stop evil one by one and do the job of life.
at April 4, 2008 3:33 PM
Guess what, dude, I really don't want your forgiveness when I've done nothing wrong!
However, I'm willing to forgive you for your arrogance and for your terrorism, because that's how we people of the Book are.
Read the Book (the Bible); you just might learn something.
Posted by: PersonOfTheBook
LOL!! Here, here! Yeah, I don't recall asking for forgiveness either - and let me think - I don't recall doing or saying anything wrong on top of it. Good point, Person!
...although I'm not holding out for an apology regarding their offenses and crimes. Cold day in hell before that will happen.
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 3:38 PM
If our universal human rights come from man they are in fact reversible by man, and therefore not absolute.
So if God doesn't exist then human rights are an illusion.
And if Allah really is God then maybe the Muslims are right after all.
If there are absolute human rights because God DOES exist it doesn't necessarily logically follow that that God is Allah or Yahweh.
It's a rat's nest, and only someone who is an intellectual child would be so arrogant to think that he has it all figured out.
You must see my perspective on this issue to understand the basis of any alliance from someone like me.
The way it's often presented, especially in the comments of on this site, is thus:
Your God's false; mine is the true one!
No, your God's the false one!
Here is my input: I don't care what either of you believe; you're not going to impose your religious beliefs on me.
So, here is how it is going to be as far as I am concerned: every time some Christian brags about how the real answer to Islam is Jesus or the Bible, I am going to be here to state that the answer is in secular humanism.
This, as Robert as declared, is a non-sectarian site, and if some sects are going to feel free to proselytize in these fora than I will do likewise.
Or, instead of saying that "Islam is evil and Christianity is good!" Or "religion is ignorant and secularism is smart!" - we could all just agree that "Islam is bad!"
How about that? Or, we could both express our views without some more-enlightened-than-thou overly pious jerk trying to teach me, a Mensa and Triple Nine Society member who went to university on full scholarship, in a condescending manner every time I offer a contrary view.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 3:47 PM
R_not, I am well aware of what religion the pirates around the African continent are and were, those posting here, I would assume, are likewise enlightened. Also, the story is being updated regularly at the same link.
Posted by: morguerat at April 4, 2008 3:52 PM
we could all just agree that "Islam is bad!"
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 3:47 PM
Sign me up.
Posted by: old.grimm at April 4, 2008 3:53 PM
Wafa Sultan: “...any belief that chops off the heads of its critics is doomed to turn into terrorism and tyranny. This has been the condition of Islam, from its inception to this day. Islam has sentenced [its critics] to prison, and whoever crosses the threshold of that prison meets his death… If you want to change the course of events, you must re-examine your terrorist teachings, you must recognize and respect the right of the other to live, you must teach your children love, peace, coexistence and productive work. When you do that, the world will respect you...”
And that got her a fatwa from Sheik Yusuf al-Qaradawi, "one of Islam’s most respected scholars". (Oh the irony)
Sultan is in hiding and al-Qaradawi is running around loose. (Oh the irony again)
Once more: "..you must teach your children love, peace, coexistence and productive work. When you do that, the world will respect you...” (The nerve of anyone suggesting that.)
This is Islam.
Posted by: Sounder at April 4, 2008 3:55 PM
Non-Croyant, while the Founders were Deists, they were strong believers in the Bible, just not in any of the denominations of the day.
Posted by: morguerat at April 4, 2008 3:59 PM
Non-Croyant, while the Founders were Deists, they were strong believers in the Bible, just not in any of the denominations of the day.
Actually, I agree with the Fundies on this one - most of the Founders were just as mainstream Christian as the Methodists, Episcopalians, Catholics, and Baptists as you see around you in the US today.
All of them were definitely affected by Enlightenment thought to one degree or another, but people like Thomas Paine were the exception.
As much as I respect them - I don't think we have had any leaders of their intellectual caliber in the States or maybe even the world since - I don't think their word is holy. Even if they had made this country explicitly a Christian country, which they didn't, I wouldn't feel any compunction in fighting against that notion - and changing it in law if I had to.
Storm Rider had a quote above "consent of the governed." That is far more significant to me than what any god supposedly said.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 4:06 PM
Here is my input: I don't care what either of you believe; you're not going to impose your religious beliefs on me. So, here is how it is going to be as far as I am concerned: every time some Christian brags about how the real answer to Islam is Jesus or the Bible, I am going to be here to state that the answer is in secular humanism.
I don't care what you believe, either. My only issue was that the God of Judaism and Christianity was equated with Allah of Islam, which is not only untrue, and offensive, but also is the same fallacious argument made by Mohammed.
Personally, I would like to see everyone keep their hobby-horse provocative comments to themselves, but once made, some require response.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 4, 2008 4:08 PM
Darcy;
Someone peeled the sticker off your car?
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 1:53 PM
Yes, undaunted. Here's what I posted yesterday on another thread:
People - I have another "DefeatJIHAD/JIHADWATCH.ORG" bumper sticker story!
"My husband is in Houston, TX, on business this week. He drove my vehicle because it's newer and nicer than his (lol). So, he just called and told me this: Last night after having dinner at Willy G's in the Galleria area, he returned to the vehicle and saw that the STICKER HAD BEEN RIPPED OFF! TORN OFF, PEOPLE!
I will say that I do check to see whether the sticker is in place. Up to now, it has been. Hoo Boy - I would LOVE to see who did that! Which, of course, I never will. Anyway, I've got more stickers since I ordered 10, and will be replacing the first one as soon as he gets home."
Which I did this morning, undaunted.
Posted by: darcy at April 4, 2008 4:19 PM
The Republic of the U.S.A. is under assault from many enemies today. We had better learn to start saying NO to inherently evil ideologies and insidious money-lenders that run our governments, or we will surely fail our children by not gifting them these freedoms that we have enjoyed and sadly come to take for granted.
Neither are we so free a people as we might wish to believe. We are enduring continuing and growing hardships from over-taxation and Political Correctness run amok. Do not be fooled any longer. Do no continue to buy into the Chaos that these various enemies wish to sow in our midst to keep us distracted and bickering amongst ourselves. It is all a game, carefully constructed and bent on eroding the sovereignty of all free nations.
I have clarity.
at April 4, 2008 4:20 PM
Yes, if God doesn’t exist human rights are an illusion - you've got it exactly right.
Not only are human rights an illusion, human worth is an illusion. The God of the Bible says man is made in the image of God - therefore human life is of infinite value from the Judeo-Christian point of view - the point of view of our founding fathers.
From the atheist point of view human life is just highly evolved pond scum - this is exactly the thinking of Karl Marx and Adolph Hitler.
Settle down, no one here is trying to impose their religion on you - you are free to be an atheist, but as an atheist you are not free to undo the Judeo-Christian religious values that are in the Declaration of Independence. There are religious values in the founding of America, so if anyone is constraining you it would be Thomas Jefferson, not me.
"Or, we could both express our views without some more-enlightened-than-thou overly pious jerk trying to teach me, a Mensa and Triple Nine Society member who went to university on full scholarship, in a condescending manner every time I offer a contrary view."
Am I the jerk that you are referring to? What did I say about myself, as opposed to our founding fathers, which is overly pious?
While I have no doubt you are intelligent, your intelligence is not the full measure of a man. I'll match my wits with you any day. Bragging about how smart you are is immoral, and it is often the MQ rather than the IQ of a man that leads him to goodness or even greatness in this world. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union were full of intelligent people - just like you. They were, however, moral idiots.
at April 4, 2008 4:21 PM
"....trying to teach me, a Mensa and Triple Nine Society member who went to university on full scholarship, in a condescending manner every time I offer a contrary view."
LMAO!! That is the funniest comment to date! Please stop braggin' - you're killin' my funny bone!!! :-D
at April 4, 2008 4:25 PM
Without morality no democracy will endure.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2008 4:30 PM
Or, we could both express our views without some more-enlightened-than-thou overly pious jerk trying to teach me, a Mensa and Triple Nine Society member who went to university on full scholarship, in a condescending manner every time I offer a contrary view.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 3:47 PM
That comment just about sums up the man in my estimation.
He's evolving into 'Roobart Sbunsar' right before our very eyes.
Posted by: awake at April 4, 2008 4:31 PM
Not only are human rights an illusion, human worth is an illusion.
"Rights," "worth," "meaning," etc have no more relevance if God exists then if he doesn't.
"Where did the universe come from?"
"God made it."
"Where did God come from?"
"He is has always existed."
"Then why couldn't the universe itself have always existed?"
It's an elementary refutation of Aquinas's "proof," a six year old could understand it.
Really, tell me how your "worth" or "meaning" changes just because God exists? BAM! You are worth something because I say so!
That's not meaning.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 4:34 PM
Freedom was won by those that had the good sense to value themselves.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2008 4:43 PM
LMAO!! That is the funniest comment to date! Please stop braggin' - you're killin' my funny bone!!! :-D
At least I come right out and say it. Take a look at just about any Christian trying to correct the thinking of an atheist on any message board anywhere.
Their words drip with more-enlightened-than-thou pedantry.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 4:43 PM
Can anyone trump a Mensa Triple play? I have a Vons Club card - oh - and a Ralphs card too. I am such un-Mensa material :-(
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 4:43 PM
I have an expired Mensa card.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2008 4:46 PM
Looking at the sad poster holders face says it all. The delusional brainwashing of Islam is being exposed on many fronts and even 1 billion Muslims don't have enough fingers to stick in the cracking dam walls before the whole flood of Truth comes down upon them. When the Italians realized Mussolini lied to them and bewitched them out of his own arrogance, they dragged his corpse through the streets and stung him up on a telephone pole. I don't think it will be long before spellbound Muslims do the same to the mullahs, clerics and other crooks that sold them a sorry ball of wax melting in the sun.
Posted by: Briars at April 4, 2008 4:48 PM
The worth of a thing is determined by what someone will pay for it.
I have no desire for a Mercedes, ergo it has no worth to me. I love my Dodge 4x4, ergo it has worth.
Following Christian beliefs ~ which is a logic trail, not a fantasy ~ tells us God values us so much before he knew us that he became man in order to pay for us with his life... the greatest of prices for that which he values most highly.
In Islam, worth is assigned by how many dead one has accredited to his account.
Peace.
at April 4, 2008 4:49 PM
This is what non-croyant does in threads in a deliberate attempt to derail them.
storm-rider, first posted this:
"Our freedom of speech in America is an essential component of liberty. Since our liberty, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, comes from God, our freedom of speech comes from God.
Our God - the God in the Bible - has given us liberty and freedom of speech. Their god denies liberty and freedom of speech.
Our God is not the same as their god."
Posted by: Storm-Rider at April 4, 2008 1:19 PM
This is merely a statement of fact, per the document. It was shown as a direct comparison to the God of the Bible as opposed to Allah, with a statement that they are not the same god.
non-croyant then quite disingenuously retorts with:
"Our freedoms come from God, as it says in the US Constitution, the actual basis of law in the US.
Oh wait; God is only mentioned in the date in the Constitution."
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 2:12 PM
It's quite simple. Insert "The Constitution" as a substitute for "The Declaration of Independence", imply that is what storm-rider said and begin the argument of deistic faith versus atheism.
Then non-croyant engages in the proselytizing debate which he has created. What is noticable is that when the debate does not go as he expects, he calls out the others as proselytizers and reminds us that his contrary view is not only valid, but actually superior, due to his membership in mensa and the triple nine society.
And make no mistake about it. Unless moderated, he will provide at least 10 to 15 more comments on this thread explaining how everyone else here is intellectually stunted.
at April 4, 2008 4:49 PM
From the Jihad Watch FAQ:
Posted by: non-croyant
I envision Jihad Watch as an opportunity for all the actual and potential victims of jihad violence and oppression -- Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, secular Muslims, atheists, whatever -- to join together to defend universal human rights. There are many things about which we all disagree, but at this point we need to unite simply in order to survive. We can sort out our disagreements later.
At this point the people most active, in various ways, in the work of Jihad Watch are a Catholic, a Jew, and an atheist. If we weren't so busy trying to awaken the Western world to the threat of violent jihad, we could walk into a bar and...(fill in your own punchline).
at April 4, 2008 4:54 PM
Sheeeeeesh! There goes everyone getting their panties in a bunch (or for Hugh, their knickers in a twist) over religion again!
Gees people. What a waste of time arguing over belief and religion. There is NOOOOOO ANSWER.
It is the eternal Human argument that has never been solved.
The reality is that we only know our own little bubble of an existance (and we're not even very good at that)! Im sure if we were able to place ourselves in society 10,000 years ago or 5,000 or 2,000 or the same amount into the future we would be faced with the same argument. Every society has thought of themselves as the "most advanced", "righteous" and "enlightened" in their own times(many were)in every era. Man evolves, society evolves, religion evolves and God evolves. But in the end...its the same thing - the chicken or the egg?
If we tried to argue with ancients over pagan Gods or a pantheon we would get the same heated argument. If we fast forward 2,ooo years (if the Mo-rons haven't wiped us out)there'll be some other religion and "God" that Humans will no doubt be easilly worked up about.
Who cares, I say? So long as the end result is the same....A BENIGN SOCIETY.
No matter if you "believe" or not it comes down to right and wrong. THAT NEVER CHANGES!
I don't think Communists were bad because they were athiest...they were bad because they were BAD period. I know some religios folks who are just as bad.
It comes down to choosing right from wrong - good from bad.
at April 4, 2008 4:57 PM
Keeping that declaration of non-sectarianism in mind, take a look at this:
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 5:00 PM
"We will not forgive those who insult Prophet and Qoran"
Makes me so glad I follow the One who so wisely told His followers to forgive...
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen
All unforgiveness does is eat away at one's soul who holds it.
Posted by: SoteriA at April 4, 2008 5:01 PM
Go RedWings!!!!
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 5:02 PM
Free Will.
Music.
Art.
The opposable thumb.
Child birth.
Comedy.
Tragedy.
Philosophy.
The ability to question. The desire to understand.
Love.
If you require more proof of something greater than yourself, then it's safe to say that you haven't learned enough lessons yet. You will.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2008 5:04 PM
non-croyant,
Your atheism is a faith, and it is tantamount to a religious faith - a substitute religion; and for some atheists it is an evangelical religious faith. Some atheists do their best, often through the legal and educational system, to spread atheistic faith to others.
One problem with many atheists is that they don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that theirs is in fact a faith - I'm not necessarily saying that you are that way.
Yes, the universe may be eternal and un-created, or it was created 13 billion years ago by an un-created God in a big bang. Maybe the universe is eternal - an un-created and unending series of big bangs - or maybe God is the author of that.
Realize also that religious faith and atheistic faith are both in total compliance with science - neither faith has science in its pocket.
The definition of science is any belief which is derived through observation, testing and inductive reason.
And John Locke's definition of faith can be summarized as this:
Faith is any belief which is undiscoverable by science.
There is, and cannot be any conflict between faith and science by these definitions - either religious or atheistic faith.
So, choose your faith. These are the main choices:
1. God of the Bible. Our founding fathers say He is the source of human rights: the sacred rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. There are many places in the Bible where this is seen. The God in this book is a God of love, compassion, goodness and justice. I'll just stick with our founding fathers - just look at the nation that has resulted from these Judeo-Christian values, and compare America to Islamic nations, or to Nazi Germany, or the Soviet Union. I'll take the actual results of religious-based liberty at face value.
2. god of the Koran. Here's a god of death, subjugation and misery - bad choice.
3. Some other god - like the one on the back of a turtle - kind of seems silly and childish to me.
4. No god. The founding fathers of the Soviet Union made this choice - remember Karl Marx, Vladimir Lenin and Joseph Stalin. They were the founding fathers of a nation conceived in atheism - the separation of God from state. Those guys presided over the imprisonment and mass-murder of many tens of millions of regular ole' people.
All of the intelligence in the universe will not solve this mystery, only moral understanding in combination with great intelligence - the ability to tell right from wrong - wisdom it’s self. Our founding fathers had both in spades, and now here we are.
at April 4, 2008 5:04 PM
I have an expired Mensa card.
Posted by: Foehammer
That is so funny - we have a winner!! LOL!
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 5:05 PM
That's pretty misleading, non-croyant.
The google search parameter you typed in (I assume) was this: "site:jihadwatch.org Jesus"
The link you posted here was "Jesus".
I think we get the point.
Go RedWings!!!!
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 5:07 PM
This is merely a statement of fact, per the document. It was shown as a direct comparison to the God of the Bible as opposed to Allah, with a statement that they are not the same god.
[emphasis mine]
I can't find "Jesus," "Bible," "Jehovah," "Yahweh," "Adonai," "Elohim," nor "Christian" anywhere in this this document.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 5:10 PM
I don't think Communists were bad because they were athiest...they were bad because they were BAD period. I know some religios folks who are just as bad.
Atheists are underrepresented in America's prisons.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 5:13 PM
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 5:10 PM
Nice try, but you are exposed. You can't help yourself. You intentionally started that argument with storm-rider as I previously stated.
Your suggestion above that the "God" that the drafters were referring to was anything other than the God of the Bible is erroneous. That they didn't get specific was intentional to be all-inclusive. Regardless, it is rooted in faith in a deity notheless, not disbelief in a God.
I think my estimate about 10 to 15 more comments is a bit conservative.
Posted by: awake at April 4, 2008 5:18 PM
Atheists always seem to require more attention to their beliefs (or lack there of) than religious people do.
God definitely has a sense of humor.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2008 5:18 PM
Funhammer is more like it!! LOL!!
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 5:21 PM
I'm a comical pundit. Yessiree.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2008 5:27 PM
non-croyant,
You may have some intelligence little man, but you are playing in the big leagues here. Your little mind tricks won't work here. God is mentioned no less than three times in the Declaration of Independence. No one said that Jesus, Bible, Jehova, Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, or Christian was mentioned in the Declaration of Independence; but people often refer to God as the Creator or as the One who is Divine.
So, you would appear to have some brains, but you would also appear to be a deceiver of others - those little religious serfs that you and Karl Marx so despise.
A rejection of human rights derived from the God of the Bible - same God of the Declaration of Independence - is un-American - it is the very definition of un-American.
1. "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
2. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
3. "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
Posted by: Storm-Rider at April 4, 2008 5:27 PM
You left out how The Spanish Inquisition was religion run amok.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3ZQI0Xm29To
Go RedWings!!!!
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 5:28 PM
Islam: all thinking ends with it.
Posted by: profitsbeard at April 4, 2008 5:32 PM
One problem with many atheists is that they don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that theirs is in fact a faith - I'm not necessarily saying that you are that way.
"Atheists" and "agnostics" argue even among themselves over the semantics related to these words. I take a hard etymological position since I am a fan of language.
"Atheist" is from Greek (transliterated into Roman letters here) "a-" the negating prefix + "theos" - "god."
"Agnostic" comes from the same negator + "gnosis" - "(revealed) knowledge." That is, the kind of knowledge you just know, not knowledge gained by learning or rote.
When I say I am atheist I mean I don't believe in God. When I also say that I am agnostic, which I do, I mean that I don't know if there is a god or not.
Now I know that some take someone's saying that he is an atheist as meaning that he knows there is no god; that is not how I mean it. And I know that some take "agnostic" as meaning "someone who thinks we can't know if there is a god or not." I think that definition is just silly.
What is my point in all this? Well, I know that people will argue over the definitions of the words used and I want to give my understanding ahead of those arguments.
And it's all in preparation for this:
I, as a self-professed atheist agnostic, profess that I don't believe in god, but I don't know if there is a god or not. There may well be a god, and if I find reason to change my opinion I will. I will even admit that I am sometimes a theist agnostic, but that never means that I believe in the gods of the Bible or Qur'an. My default official position is atheist, however.
Why did I go through all that? Because I assert that most of the religious Christians reading this will assert that they not only believe in God, but they also know that the God of the Bible exists - the Trinity who is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
The know it like they know the Earth revolves around the sun.
If you are a Christian and don't profess to KNOW that your God exists, then declare that here. That's a challenge.
Now I ask - provided that I am right, and most religious Christians claim to KNOW that their God exists, who is the one with hubris?
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 5:33 PM
You just defeated your argument with the clause: "provided I am right ..."
Dang. And you were on such a roll.
Hey, let's stay mad at Islam. I think we're all on the same team here.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 5:40 PM
Atheists always seem to require more attention to their beliefs (or lack there of) than religious people do.
There is hardly an article that goes up here at Jihad Watch, or LGF for that matter, that doesn't have a comment or two that invokes God, Jesus, or the Bible in some way.
That is why I am being "disruptive." I am merely unashamedly making my presence as a reader of this site known, instead of forever biting my tongue (as I have done many times in the past when I didn't have the energy for flame wars).
Really, who needs attention? People just take it for granted that this is a Christian site when it isn't, at least not officially.
In that way it mirrors American culture in general, where 80% of the population can claim "persecution" because I wish them "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas."
"... require more attention" my foot.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 5:40 PM
Does God know that you exist, non-croyant. I think that would be a more interesting (and fun) question.
Posted by: Foehammer at April 4, 2008 5:42 PM
So, religion put the non-athiests there.Brilliant.
Well, it sure as hell didn't keep them out. Is "born again" just meaningless pablum?
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 5:43 PM
non-croyant,
Now we're getting somewhere, because I do now like, and am intensely attracted to your intellectual honesty. A truly intellectually honest atheist can be my good friend.
I was raised a Christian, but during Medical School I tried to become an atheist. I had a certain sense and feeling of superiority for a while. Only when it became apparent to me that I'd simply traded one faith for another, one religion for another religion, did I go back to religious faith.
I'm not trying to convert you to religious faith, because I believe you already have enough intellect and enough information to go on. I'm only saying that atheism as a foundation for human rights and for the foundation of a nation conceived in liberty is a failure - it has been tried.
Our founding fathers were simply superior to the founding fathers of Communism, Nazism and Islamism. There is something about the God of the Bible - same God of our founding fathers - that works in real life - not just in theory.
at April 4, 2008 5:45 PM
"Our God is not the same as their god."
Posted by: Storm-Rider at April 4, 2008 1:19 PM
Actually, Storm-Rider, it is. They just missed the Jesus bus, and now they're pissed off at the public transportation system. They even have the same set of archangels. And "allah" is not a name, just their word for God.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they have any justification for their actions, just pointing out an interesting fact most people don't know.
Oh, and go Red Wings.
Posted by: old.grimm at April 4, 2008 2:17 PM
--------------------------------
NO WAY my God is the same as their god.
They serve Satan, I serve the Real God.
The Real God judges sin, true, but He is well able to punish you with His own power; he doesn't need a bunch of fanatics doing the punishing. Rather, the Real God calls His followers to show mercy even to their enemies.
By the way, that's why there's still a Middle East after 9/11. And that's why there's still a Japan after Pearl Harbor.
Posted by: PersonOfTheBook at April 4, 2008 5:46 PM
Wow, I wish I'd said that.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 5:46 PM
Does God know that you exist, non-croyant. I think that would be a more interesting (and fun) question.
Here is what I think: some of the Christians here could give the Mudslimes pointers in being evasive.
Is there any Christian here who doesn't know that the God of the Old and New Testaments is the "true" God?
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 5:49 PM
Yes, there are plenty, non-croyant. Count me in. But you'll just have some smart-ass canned response so WTF are we wasting our time for?
If there's no God, he'll never tap you on the shoulder.
If there is One, it would be wise to be receptive to taps on that shoulder.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 5:55 PM
I'm only saying that atheism as a foundation for human rights and for the foundation of a nation conceived in liberty is a failure - it has been tried.
Communism != atheism. Nor does Naziism if you want to make that argument. It's true that Communist societies were officially atheist, but if you want to assert that atheism is responsible for the atrocities of Stalin and Pol Pot then it's fair to say Christianity was responsible for the atrocities of the Church.
Atheism isn't a system of belief; atheism pertains to just one aspect of a person's thinking.
"I don't believe in God" in nothing to base a society on.
And I think it's just as rational to base human rights on human supremacy as it is to base it on being a boon from God. The former doesn't require an act of faith.
at April 4, 2008 5:57 PM
I think I could have said that more clearly, the first part. Somebody get my 6 on this.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 5:57 PM
No one would disagree that Jesus lived and died.
Jesus is either whom He claimed to be - or He isn't - Jesus is either Lord or a Lunatic.
I have chosen to believe He is Lord based upon overwhelming evidence - not just blind faith.
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 6:01 PM
People just take it for granted that this is a Christian site when it isn't, at least not officially.
I've personally never found it to be such, and I doubt any Christian who routinely reads Hugh's posts would think that either.
Just look at the narcissistic gaseousness on this thread and you'd never make that assumption.
"Human supremacy" doesn't require an act of faith? Please, hose this guy off! Can we get a moderator in here?
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 4, 2008 6:04 PM
What needs to be moderated?
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 6:18 PM
For someone who claims to be so smart you sure are playing dumb.
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 6:20 PM
Jesus is either whom He claimed to be - or He isn't - Jesus is either Lord or a Lunatic.
You left out "liar."
I bet you think Pascal's Wager is a water-tight argument as well.
Too bad it takes only one Muslim saying that all Christians will go to hell to riddle that argument with holes.
Jesus is lord, liar, or lunatic in the same way King Arthur is.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 6:22 PM
...the emphasis from the OIC and other Islamic entities is on obtaining actual restrictions on freedom of speech in the West, not on further demonstrations of what will happen if freedom of speech is not restricted.Odd. Looks like global orchestration to me. I could be wrong I suppose; my conspiracy theories often don't work out.
The point has already been made.
Continuing. There have already been plenty of demonstrations making the point of what will happen if freedom of speech is not restricted. The demonstrations can afford to be peaceful.
Our governments arn't doing their jobs.
What is appalling is that our governments arn't stepping up to defend our right of freedom of speech. They step aside and leave the jihadis free to threaten our lives. Instead of the appeasement cravings and compulsions we see, our governments should be making some threats of their own. If not, governments--in order to protect citizens from jihadis--will choose to (and will have to) formally curtail freedom of speech. Threats against citizens who exercise their freedom of speech cannot be tolerated--as long as nothing is done, this right is, in fact, seriously eroded.
We'll be intellectually disarmed.
What's it going to come to? Will we be threatened just for complaining that jihadi threats are curtailing our freedom of speech? Are we going to have to face a deadly enemy without those, such as John Lewis, who offer ideas about what should be done? The most basic start is for our governments to get off their bellies and state clearly that it is not their job to judge the views of those who speak but to protect the right to speak and that, in fact, actions which may involve lethal force, will be taken to protect that right--not one word condemning the speech (or agreeing with it) should be uttered by officials..
From "The Rule Of Reason Blog":
If Wafa Sultan is not free, I am not free
Leonard Peikoff video about "commandments":
Reason vs. Faith, Question 6 of 8
Craig Biddle (The Objective Standard):
Religion vs. Free Speech
Leonard Peikoff article:
Religion vs. America
Chris Rodda's book:
Liars For Jesus
at April 4, 2008 6:44 PM
Liar? ....don't forget Legend (according to you).
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 6:48 PM
"Communism != atheism. Nor does Naziism if you want to make that argument. It's true that Communist societies were officially atheist, but if you want to assert that atheism is responsible for the atrocities of Stalin and Pol Pot then it's fair to say Christianity was responsible for the atrocities of the Church."
The rejection of God and God-derived human rights is the very core of Marxist and Nazi thought, and it is the basis of tyranny in the modern western world.
Our American Judeo-Christian God-based values, and our founding principles of God-based human rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is what, through war, destroyed those evil empires - WWII and the Cold War.
Yes, there was Church-based tyranny in Medieval times, but that was rejected by both Catholics and Protestants during and after the Reformation. That tyranny was church-based, not God-based.
Now we have a new religious based tyranny: Islam, but don't equate that god with the one of our founding fathers. Their God is my God, and He is the God of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Posted by: Storm-Rider at April 4, 2008 7:05 PM
I have chosen to believe He is Lord based upon overwhelming evidence - not just blind faith.
Posted by: champ at April 4, 2008 6:01 PM
Including personal - personal - evidence, eh, champ? Something non-croyant has obviously never experienced. I.e. Jesus.
Is this non-croyant's thread, or what?
Posted by: darcy at April 4, 2008 7:12 PM
11 more comments and counting so far...
Posted by: awake at April 4, 2008 7:13 PM
Greetings non-croy
You are probably aware that nabi ZK, hey that's me, does not stake out a religious position on this forum, except perhaps to fish for new converts among the mohametan and now pseudo mohametan trolls. Yes it's true. Jesus was a fisher of men so I am but a fisher of trolls (mohametan variety only please). But I digress.
You will never convince anyone of your point of view. Religious beliefs are deep seated and hard to influence. Nobody is going to read your post and think "Hey, I can be an athiest". I do not seek to denigrate your beliefs or lack of them. But you have become disruptive. The point here is to pile on the mohametans. Is it not? So let us resolve not to bicker amongst ourselves over what is purely a matter of faith or lack thereof.
Don't get me wrong. The nabi supports your positions, at last most of them. But even the nabi says enough of this. It is going nowhere. It is off topic.
Tomorrow someone who is completely unaware of this controversy will come in and say something like "Praise Jesus". Please let it slide. That is my official nabific request to you.
Politics aside this war with the mohametans is definitely a spiritual struggle. People of faith are perhaps better able to see the dimensions of the conflict. We, and that means athiests and agnostics such as myself, need them and all of their insight and energy in order that we should all prevail over the evil mohametan supremacist ideology.
nabi ZK
Posted by: zonie kafir at April 4, 2008 7:18 PM
If there's no God, he'll never tap you on the shoulder.
If there is One, it would be wise to be receptive to taps on that shoulder.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 5:55 PM
Here's the deal: You tap Him on the shoulder, FIRST. All else will follow.
at April 4, 2008 7:18 PM
What needs to be moderated? Posted by: non-croyant
I've heard some stupid comments by "I'm in Mensa!" goofballs, but that may take the cake.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 4, 2008 7:19 PM
I've heard some stupid comments by "I'm in Mensa!" goofballs, but that may take the cake.
Ok, I will be a sucker for one more.
I'm sure you think you are being really clever here, Concerned Citizen, but I can't imagine how.
I asked what needs to be moderated because I fail to see anything that I have posted that is in need of moderation. The only possible reason would be that my posts are off topic, but that would mean that every person who couldn't resist replying to something I have written - which includes you - would be in need of moderation as well.
MelM - great post above. Even though many Objectivists would denounce some of my Collectivist thinking, I have to say that Leonard Peikoff's article that you linked above expresses well the point I was trying to make earlier in these comments.
With that I bid y'all adieu. I have a date with Zul Aman in one hour and I need to make sure I have enough consumables and repair money.
I'm sure we'll all meet again in the comments of some other article.
Sorry to disappoint you, awake.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 7:35 PM
The universe has always existed.
God has always existed.
So, it comes down to choice.
How come the little, tiny, piece of land called Israel is in the news everyday? The bellybutton of this Earth....is the center of the history of mankind...
God said it would be so.
It is so.
at April 4, 2008 7:37 PM
non-croyant
This is not a site to discuss atheism, the U.S. Constitution, the truth or falsehood of Christianity, or anything other than the global jihad and Islamic supremacism.
Please stay on-topic, and/or go elsewhere to discuss matters that are clearly more important to you than the one that concerns this site.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
at April 4, 2008 8:01 PM
I agree, Robert. That is why, in an article about the Muslim reaction to Fitna, this post is off topic:
Our freedom of speech in America is an essential component of liberty. Since our liberty, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, comes from God, our freedom of speech comes from God.Our God - the God in the Bible - has given us liberty and freedom of speech. Their god denies liberty and freedom of speech.
Our God is not the same as their god.
I can promise to stay on topic if everyone else can do the same.
Posted by: non-croyant at April 4, 2008 8:05 PM
The universe has always existed...
nabi ZK wishes to inform you that all observational evidence points to the conclusion that the universe has only been around for a finite amount of time. Astronomers estimate the age of the universe to be between 10 and 20 billion years. To observe directly conditions in the early universe look at the most distant galaxies. Many are weird and funky looking. Not like the spirals we see which are closer to us in distance and time. The number of collsions between galaxies was much higher then. To learn about conditions in the distant past use the Hubble and look for yourself.
That being said the nabi does not believe in the conclusions of the astronomers as Science is a method of investigation and not a belief system. The nabi assumes that other astronomers with better instruments and more clever ideas will soon gore many sacred cows. Thus is has always been. Remember when time was absolute and universal? So it seemed.
nabi ZK
...just a basic fyi from nabi ZK...and to the mohametan trolls, the nabi is well aware of your claim that this is all in the qu'ran...but that is poetry and this is direct observation with sophisticated instruments which turns out to back up the theoretical (however non-nabific) predictions of General Relativity...those predictions are expressed mathematically and not with flowery words or poetry...your claims that this is in "allah's book" are bunk...
Posted by: zonie kafir at April 4, 2008 8:18 PM
Actually, Non-Croy, that post is on-topic. It makes assertions you disagree with, but it is making an observation about the Islamic world and the West that has to do with the thread topic.
This is a non-sectarian site dedicated to the defense of human rights for all people, and people of all points of view are welcome here. It is not, however, a place to discuss or defend atheism or Christianity or anything except matters related to Islamic jihad and Islamic supremacism.
Had you chosen to stay on-topic in response to that post, you might have discussed the other commenter's assertions regarding the Islamic world, and even posited, since your atheism is clearly so very important to you, that the West allows for people with such perspectives to live in peace, while Sharia does not. But to turn the thread into a discussion of the intent of the Founding Fathers, or the role of Christianity in the founding, or the truth of Christianity, or other such topics, is to take it outside the sphere of interest of this site.
So once again: please stay on-topic.
Thanks again.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
at April 4, 2008 8:19 PM
nabi ZK wishes to inform you that all observational evidence points to the conclusion that the universe has only been around for a finite amount of time.
I agree. I wrote "The universe has always existed.
God has always existed.
So, it comes down to choice."
to include the viewpoints stated by other posters.
at April 4, 2008 8:34 PM
Nothing to prove here. Just cause Hubble said something doesn't make it so. That being said "signs point to yes" as most of the astro community agrees.
ZK
... it's 55 km/mpc sec or something there about... and nabi ZK says that number is not in the qur'an even tho' it talks about expanding the space between the stars...
at April 4, 2008 8:58 PM
Re: deleted comments
The ideal outcome here is getting back on topic, not piling on and gloating. Robert's comment above has it covered -- no need to keep adding things on.
Please be civil, and keep it clean, for the good of the site.
Posted by: MarisolJW at April 4, 2008 11:47 PM
Amen. G'd night all.
Thanks for putting up with us, Robert.
Posted by: undaunted at April 4, 2008 11:54 PM
Posted by: MarisolJW at April 4, 2008 11:47 PM
Marisol,
Agreed. The problem is not the need to delete comments. That is commonplace. The problem is the continuous need to warn a specific poster about his comments, over and over again, without penalty.
I assure you, "non-croyant" has absolutely no redeeming value here at this site and "Roobart" has yet again, not made a single ally in his cause here.
Remove a single commenter from this site and watch all these problematic threads disappear, at least for awhile.
That should certainly cut down on your nuiscance ratio, and also remove the need to mail you guys directly.
Posted by: awake at April 5, 2008 12:17 AM
Revelation for Believers concerning those who Insult prophets
The Judgement on the one who insults a prophet in the light of the Quran, Sunnah and Classical U’lemaa’
Allah (swt) says “Those who harm* Allah and his messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and in the next and has prepared for them a humiliating punishment.” (al Ahzaab 33:57) Qadi A’yaad says ‘He (swt) said something similar about those who kill the believers. Part of the curse on them in this world is that they are killed, Allah (swt) says “Cursed they will be. Wherever they are found, they are seized and slain.” (al Ahzaab 33:61) …This is because there is a difference between their harming Allah and His Messenger and harming the believers. Injuring the believers, short of murder, incurs beating and exemplary punishment. The judgement against those who harm Allah and his messenger is more severe, the death penalty.’ (QADI A’YAAD ‘ash Shifa bi Ta’rif Huqooq Mustafaa’ [p.377]) [*NOTE: The word ‘harm’ here is a translation of the word ‘yu’dhoona’ although in English it implies an effect on the object, here it signifies the active party. In reality Allah can never be harmed and the Messenger (saw) can not be harmed after his passing. Rather, only the one directing any malicious words or actions towards Allah and the Messenger (saw) will suffer harm ultimately, and perhaps those who neglect their duty in response to that transgression as the ayah says “And fear a fitnah [calamity] which effects not in particular those who oppress among you, and Allah is Shadeedul I’qaab [Severe in Punishment].” (al Anfaal 8:25)]
Allah (swt) says “If you ask them, they will say ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘What, were you then mocking Allah, His Signs and His Messenger? Make no excuses. You have disbelieved after your belief.” (at Tawbah 9:65-66) This is kufr and the hadd for that is death as Ibn A’bbaas reports that Nabi (saw) said “Whoever changes his deen kill him.” (BUKHAARI, ABU DAWOOD, IBN MAAJAH and in the mursal of Zayd ibn Aslam with the words “…strike his neck.” MAALIK kitaabul Aqdiyah [vol.2 no.1444])
A’li ibn Abi Talib reported that Nabi (saw) said “Whoever curses a prophet kill him. Whoever curses my companions beat him.” (TABARAANI, DARAQUTNI)
· Imaam Maalik ibn Anas [d.179 h.] said “Any Muslim who curses the Prophet (saw) is killed without being asked to repent.” (SAHNOON ‘al Mudawwanatul Kubra’, AL U’TBI ‘al U’tbiyyah’, QADI A’YAAD ‘ash Shifa bi Ta’rif Huqooq Mustafaa’)
· Imaam Ibn al Qaasim [d.196 h. Maaliki Madh-hab] said “Anyone who curses him, reviles him, finds fault with him or disparages him is killed. The community says that he should be killed just like the dualist. Allah made it obligatory to respect the Prophet and be dutiful to him.” He also said “Any Jew or Christian who curses the Prophets in any way other than that by which he normally disbelieves is beheaded unless he becomes Muslim.” (AL U’TBI ‘al Utibiyyah’, QAADI A’YAAD ‘ash Shifa bi Ta’rif Huqooq Mustafaa’ [p.374] & second quote [p.439] )
· Imaam Ibn Abi Zayd al Qayrawaani [d.386 h. Maaliki Madh-hab] said “If someone speaks disrespectfully of the Messenger of Allah (saw) he should be put to death without accepting his repentance. If someone from a tolerated class speaks disrespectfully of him, aside from simply expressing his disbelief, he should be put to death unless he becomes a Muslim.” (Al QAYRAWAANI ‘ar Risaalah’ [p.173])
· Imaam Ibn Hazm [d.456 h. Zaahiri Madh-hab] said "A person who insults Allah (swt) or any of His prophets is a disbeliever and must be executed without mercy or compensation." (IBN HAZM 'al Muhalla' [vol.11 no.2308])
· Qaadi A’yaad [d.544 h. Maaliki Madh-hab] said “Know that all who curse Muhammad (saw), or blame him or attributes imperfection to him in his person, his lineage, his deen or any of his qualities, or alludes to that or its like by any means whatsoever, whether in the form of a curse or contempt or belittling him or detracting from him or finding fault with him or maligning him, the judgment regarding such a person is the same the judgement against anyone who curses him. He is killed as we will make clear. This judgment extends to anything which amounts to a curse or a disparagement. We have no hesitation concerning this matter, be it a clear statement or allusion. The same applies to anyone who curses him, invokes against him, desires to harm him, ascribes to him what does not befit his position or jokes about his mighty affair with foolish talk, satire, disliked words or lies, or reviles him because of any affliction or trial which happened to him or disparages him, because of any of the permissible and well-known human events which happened to him. All of this is the consensus of the u’lamaa and the Imaams of fatwa from the time of the sahaabah until today.” (QADI A’YAAD ‘ash Shifa bi Ta’rif Huqooq Mustafaa’ [p.373])
· Sidi Khaleel [d.676 h. Maaliki Madh-hab] said concerning issues which break the contract of protection for the dhimmi [the non-Muslim living in Dar al Islam] “Insults a prophet with slander over and above what constitutes his disbelief…he should be put to death unless he embraces Islam.” (KHALEEL ‘al Mukhtasar’)
at April 5, 2008 1:22 AM
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Immediately after the publication of material insulting the Prophet (saw), all across Europe we have heard the usual chorus from sell-out figure heads calling on Muslims to have ‘no anger’ and condemning any Muslims who display ‘extreme views’ etc. Instead of this modern, impotent misguidance called ‘moderation’ which has been engineered to smooth the way for neo-colonial policies against the Muslim world, let us look to the roots of Islam, the Divine Text and the statements of those scholars who lived in when the best laws were implemented and humanity enjoyed the justice of Islamic society....
So what is the state of one who opposes what the sharia’h commands about any issue, including the hadd for those who insult prophets? Allah (swt) says “Let those beware who oppose his order [amr] lest some calamity befall them or a grievous penalty be inflicted upon them” (an Noor 24:63) and “It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision.” (al Ahzaab 33:36) and "But no by your Lord, they can have no imaan until they set you (O Muhammad) judge in any disputes that arise among them and then find in themselves no resistance against your decisions but submit to them with fullest submission (yusallimu tasleema)." (an Nisaa 4:65) and A’bdullah ibn A’mru ibn al A’ss reported that Rasool Allah (saw) said “None of you b
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