Are you sure it's Pakistan? Looks more like Bradford in the UK to me.

Posted by: Celsius at April 6, 2008 3:28 PM

I wonder if they want to sever financial aide too.

Posted by: haramfidel at April 6, 2008 3:34 PM

"I wrote an article for FrontPage last Thursday speculating about why there has been such a muted reaction to Fitna up to this point, "

I would guess that the mahhommetans thought that they could strong arm the dhimmi rulers in various ways and that they probably were assured that the elites were on the same page as them as regards the release of that movie.

When the movie was released anyways, they had to fall back to plan b, there are people to organize, flags for burning to be procured, effigies to be constructed.

But this is another example of the cultural differences between east and west. We assume that the Islamists realize that our people are pretty much free to disseminate opinions regardless of wether they are officially held views or not. They assume that just like they control terror organizations as proxies for their policies, the west also controls antijihadis as proxies.

Posted by: stickman at April 6, 2008 3:34 PM

The photo looks like the Boston Marathon... heading for a cliff.

Posted by: profitsbeard at April 6, 2008 3:57 PM

I honestly don’t understand the rage behind Fitna. This 15 minute video clip could have been easily produced by jihadists and published on one of their websites. With the exception of the Prophet Muhammad who could be depicted not with a bomb, but with sword in one hand and a decapitated head of an “enemy of Islam” in another.

I wonder what would be a reaction to a Passion of The Christ style of movie – with that kind of detail, in Arabic with subtitles [maybe parallel subtitles-translations of Koran/Hadith on a DVD] and unrated – using Craig Winn’s Prophet of Doom as a script...

Who’s willing to invest a few million $ into The Passion of Muhammad ;)

Posted by: johnsawyer at April 6, 2008 4:04 PM

This is more like it! I was beginning to think the RoPers were starting to go soft on us. Still, the demonstrators don't appear to exhibit quite the same level of intensity as in the Cartoon or Pope rages. It was limited to urging expulsion of the Dutch ambassador. There were no calls for killing Wilders here (at least that were reported), and the spokesman went out of his way to say that this wasn't against the West (taqiyya?). We need more expressions of freedom such as Wilders has provided. Enough of them, applied mercilessly over a long enough period of time, should eventually desensitize the Muslims to this ridiculous "issue."

Posted by: Eastview at April 6, 2008 4:17 PM

The reason Fitna rage has been delayed is because they were working on a strategy to get the UN to enforce Islamic blasphemy laws and European countries to enfore the blaspemy laws and to bring charges against Wilders...they made a little progress...but so far no charges against Wilders so pressure will be applied more and more as the days and weeks go on.

Interestingly though, this does show that contrary to what Muslims proclaim, in that they can't control jihadis and Islamic supremacists, they obviously can. And the few protestors previously were the actual ones they cant control. What was it? 50 of them in Indonesia?
This tells me all I need to know about Muslim control of terrorism and Islamic supremacism.

They have a strategy in effect at all times, and are controlling every step of their war against the 'infidel'.

Posted by: TS at April 6, 2008 4:27 PM

It always amazes me that they can get out the crowds and protest like crazy for things like cartoons or movies or whatever the imagined slight may be, yet when fellow muslims are killed by the terrorists you never hear a peep. Inshallah they say, it was meant to be. If they set their minds to it, CONstruction could be done instead of DEstruction, or their favorite thing....apathy towards themselves.

I guess if you lived there you'd never think to yourself "hmm what will I do this weekend".

Posted by: gymgal at April 6, 2008 4:28 PM

I think Ronald Reagan got his evil empires mixed up. That title rightly belongs to the Islamic world.

Posted by: rational at April 6, 2008 4:34 PM

Oh that's nice. Pakistanis finally protesting the Islamic violence and supremacism shown in Fitna the movie.

No?

Posted by: Sounder at April 6, 2008 5:07 PM

Its funny to watch Muslims hyperventilating themselves over such trivial issues (cartoons and 15 minute flicks). What is needed is a 24-7 campaign bombarding Islam until blood vessels burst or they enter a state of nirvana.

Acting like civilized humans must be beyond comprehension. Like I said "acting" that would be good enough for me.

Posted by: havekoranwilltravel at April 6, 2008 6:12 PM

Wow. Look at all the male Barbarians. I'm sure female Barbarians weren't allowed because they have to stay put in their prisons, er, homes.

Posted by: darcy at April 6, 2008 6:12 PM

This is what Ten Billion dollars worth of Aid gets you. Another swell weekend in PAKILAND.

Posted by: savsiv at April 6, 2008 6:27 PM

Profitsbeard sez:

"heading for a cliff."

Unfortunately they don't jump off.

Here's another gang of Islamo-thugs who 'denounce terrorism in all its forms'... which is the perceived terrorism against them:

http://sheikyermami.com/2008/04/06/india-islamic-clerics-denounce-terrorism-in-all-its-forms/

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 6, 2008 6:44 PM

"We are ready to sacrifice our lives for the sanctity of the prophet!!!"

Deluded hero worshippers, all.

From [Al-Hudaybiya and] Lessons from the Prophet Muhammad's Diplomacy

Early Muslims saw Muhammad as an exemplary human but by no means a perfect one. Indeed, they dared not. The Qur'an itself refers to Muhammad as "erring" (93:7) and includes much information that reveals his foibles. Perhaps the most damning concerns the Satanic verses episode when, for evidently political reasons, Muhammad recognized the validity of pagan Meccan gods (53:19-21), thereby temporarily making Islam into a polytheistic religion (and appeasing his Quraysh critics). Internal evidence suggests to Muhammad's leading modern Western biographer, Montgomery Watt, that the Satanic verses incident must be true: "It seems impossible that any Muslim could have invented this story."... As concerns the Satanic verses episode, for example, an influential Egyptian intellectual simply dismissed information about it as "fabricated (even though it is in the Qur'an itself)," indeed, he calls it nothing less than "a fable and a detestable lie."

In other words, who needs truth when lies have been so effective? The ignoramuses in the street only know what they are told to believe, and that to even think of questioning the Qur'an is to apostasize, get cursed by Allah, and wind up in Islamohell with all of the infidel Jews and Christians, and lots of Muslim women...See Islamic Voodoos: Women, Part A

Posted by: Lex at April 6, 2008 6:45 PM

Robert, no posts no article about Muslim desecration of war graves in France. Not surprised

Posted by: jafar at April 6, 2008 6:48 PM

"....defaming the Prophet Muhammad."

Such lies. Muhammad did a pretty good job of defaming himself by his own evil actions.

Posted by: champ at April 6, 2008 6:53 PM

jafar,

Allow me. Muslim war graves defaced in France

Excerpt:

Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, expressed "profound outrage" at the "sordid" attack and vowed that those responsible would be punished. Francois Fillon, the prime minister, also voiced "outrage" at the attack. "This is horrific, and for the 90th anniversary of the end of the 1914-1918 war. This is worse than the last time, it is abominable," Jean-Paul Doue, one of 3,800 volunteer honorary guards at the cemetery, said. David Bardiaux, the curator of the cemetery's museum, said: "It is inadmissible, unbelievable. The cemetery is not locked, so it doesn't take courage to come and do this."

Posted by: Lex at April 6, 2008 7:00 PM

"....defaming the Prophet Muhammad."

Such lies. Muhammad did a pretty good job of defaming himself by his own evil actions.

Posted by: champ at April 6, 2008 6:53 PM

Prophet? Mo is not a Prophet, he's a Con Man.

Hey champ! Hope you're doing great, girl!

Posted by: darcy at April 6, 2008 7:01 PM

Mo the Pro, I like it!

Posted by: Lex at April 6, 2008 7:07 PM

What's the matter with good old 'Mo-ron'? Offensive? Uh-oh...

Anyway, a plug for translated versions of Fitna: They can be found at Gates of Vienna - the best shop in town for insulting false prophets and those who took the Mark of the Beast.

Latest translation out the door is Indonesian subtitles. Since we have the attention of the Indonesians already, this is poised to hurt even more 'religious' feelings.

I feel offended too, when they burn my flag. It's the best Crusader symbol anywhere, and I'm proud to see it returning so massively to Palestine and other relevant countries.

Posted by: Henrik at April 6, 2008 7:21 PM

Hey Darcy! I am super duper, thanks! How you doin'?! :-D

Mo WAS a Con Man - because he said he wanted to make a profit, not be a prophet - so he did a double con because they misunderstood what he meant. Silly misunderstanders of Islam....sigh

Posted by: champ at April 6, 2008 7:21 PM

Mo was not a prophet. It's simple: He never prophecied anything.

But wait, exceptions exist. The Sirat reports that he occassionally would have prophetic dreams as to where the Muslims would be able to harvest the next round of booty. ESP! How religious!

But then, plunder, slave trade and killing can be considered holy in one religion, one that considers itself better than any other and rejects the mere notion that it might have flaws.

Which, in turn, makes it extremely fragile. Good luck :)

Posted by: Henrik at April 6, 2008 7:27 PM

TNT is right now showing "The Two Towers" part of "The Lord of the Rings." I would compare the protesters to Orcs, but that would be racist, wouldn't it?

Posted by: Pelayo at April 6, 2008 7:28 PM

"This is what Ten Billion dollars worth of Aid [to Pakistan from the U.S.] gets you."
-- from a posting above

The real figure is closer to 30 billion dollars --as of a year ago, about 27.5 billion, if one includes sums that are disguised in the Pentagon budget, and debt relief to Pakistan. Google "Selig Harrison" and "27.5 billion dollars" for more.

Posted by: Hugh at April 6, 2008 7:30 PM

The best way for Muslims to nullify "Fitna" would be to stop threatening people they find offensive, to roundly condemn those Muslims who threaten or attack people, to stop doing things that lead people to believe that Islam is linked to violence. There is no equivalent film with such notoriety about any other religion, because no other religion has the violent connotations that Islam has deservedly accrued.
Yes, it's unfair to generalize about Muslims being violent, since that harms the peaceful Muslims, but we live in an imperfect world where most people lack the ability to make fine distinctions.

Posted by: jewdog at April 6, 2008 7:31 PM

I wonder if they want to sever financial aide too.

Which hardly matters. It matters if *we* do. Write congressman...

Posted by: Henrik at April 6, 2008 7:34 PM

And they don't rally for the abused women who experience honor killings and other violence. This is because Islam is more important that the human dignity of its followers and especially more important than non-Muslims.

Jesus Christ spoke against this kind of religion, where the religion is more important than human dignity. We see continually that Islam is an inhumane and irrational religion. For these reasons, both the cartoon and the movie are true in their criticism.

Posted by: James Martel at April 6, 2008 7:48 PM

Henrik,

So, the Mark of the Beast -the zebibah, Arabic for raisin- is, technically speaking, a sign of "hyperkeratotic nodular callosities."

What a mouthful! And nice to know for Scrabble, but it's easier to just call these folks "zebibah heads."

Posted by: Lex at April 6, 2008 7:49 PM

It took several months after publication of the Mohammad cartoons before protests reached their fever pitch and people started to die.

25,000 enraged Pakistanis? They're just getting warmed up.

Posted by: special_guest at April 6, 2008 8:05 PM

"Muslim war graves defaced in France"
from a post above.

The perpetrators of the defacement of the Muslim war graves in France are despicable and should be tracked down and prosecuted. No matter how you slice it, these actions truly are hate crimes that are abhorrent to civilized people everywhere.

Posted by: Eastview at April 6, 2008 8:31 PM

"Muslim war graves defaced in France"
from a post above.

The perpetrators of the defacement of the Muslim war graves in France are despicable and should be tracked down and prosecuted. No matter how you slice it, these actions truly are hate crimes that are abhorrent to civilized people everywhere.

Posted by: Eastview at April 6, 2008 8:35 PM

They have a strategy in effect at all times, and are controlling every step of their war against the 'infidel'.
Posted by TS

I think this is giving Muslims more credit than they really deserve. Hell, despite what they would have us believe, our leaders barely know what they're doing, and I doubt that reality impaired Muslims are any better. Our not knowing what their strategies might be doesn't necessarily mean that those strategies are good.

Although it's true that the Motoon incidents were choreographed by a few imams, and they undoubtedly would like nothing more than to repeat their success, the phenomena of mass rallies in the Islamic world chanting "Death to (fill in the blanks)" has somewhat the feel of the rock concerts in the late 60's and 70's. Pretty flashy at the time, but in the absence of anything of substance to sustain them they eventually petered out. The analogy isn't perfect, as analogies never are, but when I look at the videos of the protests, except for a few zealot-cheerleaders I don't detect that much passion by the average turban wearing guy (no women) in the crowd.

As someone will rightly point out, the same might have been said of Hitler's rallies in the 30s, so we need to keep our eyes and ears open. As long as they keep their protests within the confines of Islamic countries like Pakistan or Yemen, let them rage. Let them try it here, though, and they get slapped in irons.

Posted by: Eastview at April 6, 2008 8:54 PM

OH MY GOD, NO!!!!!!!!!!!

Condi for VP spot??
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/04/dan-senor-condo.html

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 6, 2008 9:11 PM

As McCain's VP? Fat chance. I think Mitt Romney has a better shot at the job, but should anyone be surprised at Condi's wanting to stay in a position of influence? Starting January 2009 she's out of a job and out of the spotlight. I did think she might wait 4 or 8 years, though, before making her move.

Posted by: Eastview at April 6, 2008 9:24 PM

"They call this freedom of expression, but it's freedom of aggression,"

I'd call it a great target of opportunity. THAT would be aggression. Far as the desecrated graves, I'll bet a buck that it was done by Muslims to stir up anger and sympathy.

Posted by: Rick at April 6, 2008 9:33 PM

Eastview,

Any opinions on

Sue Myrick, NC
Marsha Blackburn, TN
Ginny Brown-Waite, FL
Others?

We need someone who will turn off the money spigot to Crapistan after McCain's coronary on 1/22/2009.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 6, 2008 9:39 PM

"Yes, it's unfair to generalize about Muslims being violent, since that harms the peaceful Muslims, but we live in an imperfect world where most people lack the ability to make fine distinctions." from an above posting.

Yes I agree, but then I ask myself if that were true then where are the protests against these violent verses of the Koran, by peaceful Muslims! I would like to see that on a large scale. I would like to see protests against acts of Jihad against non Muslims, by peaceful Muslims. But I think they are a very, very, very small number who are brave enough to come out against Islam. So I think that fear of death may be one of the reasons, holding some back and fear of change. Or it could be that there are not that many who do not support the jihad, I really do not know I would like somebody to answer this for me.

Posted by: savsiv at April 6, 2008 10:00 PM

More Muslim theatrics. First, most of the demonstrators have never seen the clip. Second, they would not understand it if they say it. Third, 98% of them were told to hit the streets by their local leader who has never seen the clip. Kind of sad, if the media would ignore the theatrics, it would quietly go away.

Posted by: DeadRecknoning at April 6, 2008 11:20 PM

Concerned Citizen,

I had McCain's coronary in mind when I was thinking about Mitt Romney, as I'm sure virtually everyone else is, too, when they do their calculations about the upcoming years.

I must admit I'm not familiar with the names you proposed. Care to fill us in on who they are?

Posted by: Eastview at April 6, 2008 11:57 PM

Come on MOhabs, surely you can do better than this. You had better rage for the teddy bear riots. Can't you get it up for Fitna? After all, it shows you to you who you really are. Where' the real rage? Bring it on!

Mohammed's Arabs, the MOhabs, are losing it in Pakiland?

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at April 7, 2008 12:37 AM

Or it could be that there are not that many who do not support the jihad, I really do not know I would like somebody to answer this for me. - posted by savsiv

Your answer is here: Pakistani Motoon poll: 62% say "Kill the Cartoonist and the Editors who published it" And that may be conservative.

What surprises me is how tame their riots are. Usually dozens or more die, but no deaths reported yet. Pity, whot? I am disappointed in their lame response to Fitna. Surely they must be holding back best for last. Where's the real rage? Beheadings, stonings, suicide bombings aren't going to cut it. Get it up Pakiland ragheads. More rage! And then go home and beat the wife, or wives, since you're in the mood.

Rage is what MOhabs do best. Give us full rage non-stop! We want more rage!

... got popcorn?

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at April 7, 2008 1:08 AM

Too bad all that energy couldn't be directed at getting the ones who want others dead. but, oh... they ALL want us dead.

I wonder if the ones with their heads up their behinds will start seeing the 'moderates' for what they are.

Then again, the ones with their heads up their butts don't venture outside of their usual media sources to find out what is reality.

Posted by: R_not at April 7, 2008 2:31 AM

Give them some time. They are not finished with the cartoon rage yet. Rallies are being held against the cartoons in most cities over here. Just the day before yesterday, there was a rally in Bhopal in which all the muslim kids were dressed as saudi sheiks carrying signs that read "Death to America Denmark and Israel". I saw the news along with a pic in an evening daily, most of the MSM is fed up of it, and does not report or print pics.

Posted by: arjun.sevak at April 7, 2008 3:48 AM

That Fitna clip was too short.

Had to hit the replay button a couple of times to finish my popcorn...

Posted by: Platypus at April 7, 2008 4:46 AM

That Fitna clip was too short.

Had to hit the replay button a couple of times to finish my popcorn...

Posted by: Platypus at April 7, 2008 4:51 AM

As I have not time to wade through 46 prior comments to see if the irony has been pointed out already, please allow me the risk of repeating what has already been said. It was the same with the Cartoon Crisis: in response to purportedly false claims about irrational, violent and totalitarian tendencies within Islam, large masses of Muslisms gather to irrational and at times violently demand that the West conform totally to Islamic standards of public expression. Of course, things have not gotten too violent in these particular riots...yet.

What amazes me is how blind we in the west are to all this. I can't help but think of Neville Chamberlain, c. 1938. We really want to believe Muslims when they say that they want peace. "Peace in our time!" "Appeasement." Those are the watchwords of our day, but they are no more true than they were in Chamberlain's. This is why I very much hope that Americans elect McCain this November (I am Canadian, and thus not able to cast my vote in his favour). Normally I would be quite close to the average Democrat in thinking (again, being Canadian, probably a bit left thereof), but right now the world needs a leader who can see through the Islamicist lies and isn't afraid of getting his or her hands dirty. That's neither Obama nor Clinton. That is McCain.

Posted by: FidesEtRatio at April 7, 2008 5:20 AM

To insist for the freedom of speech and to screen even the movies like ‘Fitna’ and publishing of other disgusting cartoons with the view to under mine the religion of many millions –Islamists is claimed to be a ‘close to heart phenomena’ in the west to mark the right of ‘freedom of speech and expression’ by so called free world; but why to object freedom of speech by Islamist to urge others in order to break the shackles of their oppressors and free their homeland or when they are parading in the streets of Karachi to protest against this mischief?

The so called inflammatory rhetoric of clergies as shown in the movie or organising a protest march to show the resentment against the movie is just to mark a condemnation of planned mischief against the final word of Almighty God-Islam and may not be called as aggression*. The entire human on this planet bear the right to express their feelings and to have their freedom of speech and expression…in order to press for their cause against all sort of oppressions and injustices!

In the end; this is but certain that Truth shall always prevail over fallacy and mischief!
--------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for None

[*Saying; When you cut a sarcastic remarks against some one then better be ready to bear the brunt from the opponent. But alas; fallacy has the fate to shiver and shudder in fear.]

Posted by: A Khokar at April 7, 2008 5:26 AM

"To insist for the freedom of speech and to screen even the movies like ‘Fitna’ and publishing of other disgusting cartoons with the view to under mine the religion of many millions...."

If this "religion of many millions" can be undermined by something as innocuous and insubstantial as a cartoon or an amateurish 15 minute home video then its foundations are clearly made of straw in which case it deserves to collapse.

Is that what all the fuss is really about?

The fear that once put under close scrutiny Islam will be revealed for all to see as nothing more than a house of cards?

Christianity has survived hundreds of years in the face of post-Enlightenment critical analysis. If Islam has nothing to hide then it has nothing to fear.

It's time muslims grew up and got a life and accepted that the price of joining the human community is that not everyone agrees with their view of the world or religion.

Posted by: Rab at April 7, 2008 6:31 AM

@ A Kohkar

Nobody is denying your freedom to speak. What we are concerned about is the content of your speech and your actions. If you don't like what we say then that's fair enough. I don't like what you say. When it comes to imposing your will on me through your actions then that's a different story. In the west we fight fire with water.

Posted by: anonymous at April 7, 2008 6:41 AM

"In the end; this is but certain that Truth shall always prevail over fallacy and mischief!"

Then Islam is doomed.

Posted by: Elric66 at April 7, 2008 6:57 AM

Seems that the West has found the most effective weapon against islamism - the "motoon" and exposing muslims to their own koranic verses.

Spread more throughout the West

Posted by: TINBH at April 7, 2008 7:21 AM

Ditto Ditto Ditto to the last three posts. I have a question. Do these people ever work? Maybe they get payed to protest.

Posted by: imamerican at April 7, 2008 8:07 AM

A Khokar,

You wouldn't be a Muslim if you didn't insist that the Qur'an is "the final word of Almighty God," but your saying it doesn't make it so. Neither does Mohammad saying it make it so, especially when you consider that he was a caravan raiding thief, a liar, a sadistic murderer, a rapist/misogynist, and a bigot, hardly the kinds of qualities one would expect to find in a genuine "prophet."

But then, Mohammad only did and said these horrible things per Allah's instructions and commands, right?

Hmm... it appears to me on further reflection that Allah and Mohammad are one and the same! That's it, A Khokar! It's a con, and you have been duped. Give it up! Reject Mohammad's psychopathologies and come into the light!

Posted by: Lex at April 7, 2008 8:22 AM

"Ditto Ditto Ditto to the last three posts. I have a question. Do these people ever work? Maybe they get payed to protest." from an above posting.

Your answer to this question is no they do not work and yes they get paid because we give them jizya and aid:

"The real figure is closer to 30 billion dollars --as of a year ago, about 27.5 billion, if one includes sums that are disguised in the Pentagon budget, and debt relief to Pakistan. Google "Selig Harrison" and "27.5 billion dollars" for more." posted by Hugh.

Moreover they emulate their sadistic psychopathic monster MoHAMtheMED who as you know "was a caravan raiding thief, a liar, a sadistic murderer, a rapist/misogynist, and a bigot." posted by Lex.

Furthermore if you look at the history of Islam they went out pillaging and looting other cultures of their riches. So that is what their master did and that is what they know to do. Steel and rob, rape women, and destroy great treasures that has been a loss to humanity--such as ancient temples, statues, churches, synagogues, Buddhist temples.

Posted by: savsiv at April 7, 2008 9:25 AM

"heading for a cliff."

We are lemmings, lemmings!

- from National Lampoon's parody of Woodstock.

Posted by: tanstaafl at April 7, 2008 10:07 AM

Methinks A Khokar has loaned his moniker to someone else. At least he/she/it used to be somewhat articulate...not so much today!

Posted by: mepeteart at April 7, 2008 11:39 AM

"The reason Fitna rage has been delayed is because they were working on a strategy to get the UN to enforce Islamic blasphemy laws and European countries to enfore the blaspemy laws and to bring charges against Wilders"

Blaspemy only applies to Islam? So killing a priest or a rabbi is a good thing?

Ouch.

Posted by: Hehadahat at April 7, 2008 11:55 AM

I think what's significant is how incredibly long it took these guys to get 25,000 into the streets. My guess is that it took a lot of inflammatory speeches and threats that "Big Brother Is Watching You" to extort this kind of behavior in a country 95% ready to overthrow its government.

The protests at Tehran University in 2002 were stopped only because the government stormed into dorms in the middle of the night and took the movement's 35 leaders -- who were flayed, burned or otherwise tortured to death and whose bodies were dumped in the streets of the universities, and in the doorways of dorms, the science center, the library and the cafeteria.

So ... if it had been all that "spontaneous" it would have happened immediately -- it wouldn't have had to be staged as this one was.

I would say that in Pakistan the brainwashing is so complete in the tribal areas with no access to international media that a "protest" of this kind can be said to be spontaneous. But not in Iran, which never banned satellite TV and only managed to jam after 9/11 (via Cuba) the signal coming out of the Iranian free TV station in Los Angeles.

So I draw a distinction between the now-minority radicals in Iran and their putrid government, which they hate as much as we do.

Remember ... it was the Iranians who came out into the streets on the evening of 9/11, candles and flashlights in hand, MORE THAN 100,000 OF THEM to express their condolences to America for 9/11.

Now that took only 4 hours to organize. It was a spontaneous outpouring of grief and solidarity that I believe is still there.

It took just one newscast from LA to ask for Iranian support of America to get that outpouring.

It took a week of ranting, threatening, cajoling, guilt-tripping and psychfascism to get 25,000 with government-printed signs.

Last week the really spontaneous protest before the Dutch Embassy drew ... 30 people.

'Nuff said.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at April 7, 2008 12:37 PM

Hehadahat ...

Blasphemy refers to SPEECH and/or art.

Killing somebody is MURDER, not blasphemy.

Blasphemy laws are a form of mind control that effects linguistics, and therefore thought. It should be banned and outlawed everywhere. Everywhere.

But it is perhaps enough to start that religions like Roman Catholicism have doctrine about blasphemy, but no punishment of it -- and certainly demand that the state punish it on their behalf.

The real problem comes with arrogant, supremacist adherents to violent religious orientations take it upon themselves to punish not only their own, but everybody else, contravening all civil and international law in the process.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at April 7, 2008 12:41 PM

Looking for Media to Serve Muslims

Our modern religious history tells us that all the religious denominations have their root source in the Middle East. The other civilizations found in far off lands have also their history that they always looked for the guidance toward the seats of knowledge and wisdom found in this area. The Judaic, Christian or the modern day Muslims, they all dwell on the same banks of Middle Eastern rivers and drink from the same streams but present day Muslims seems to be more enthusiasts and known to be crazy and emotional about their personal conduct in this world as they were severely reprimanded and given some dire warnings?

Well; Muslims are invariably purported in the western media as war mongers claiming to have derived their emotional power from martyrdom in the name of God and their life and death hems on connected rewards like beautiful eyed Hou-ris in the Hereafter.

Yes; I know Muslims, they lack in… their comprehension and material resources. Their actions should not be that obvious that these are seen and portrayed as brutal savage apaches. They ought to devise some more advanced covetous methods of ‘Run deep, run silent’ and take account of their enemies to curtail the aggression being implied against them.

But pity is that they don’t have that type of money and the resources to establish some Pentagon like organisation to carry out covert operations. They ought to bring about and devise some ‘21st Century Global Hegemonic Policy’ like ‘Global war on terror’ and get issued an open licence to exterminate the adversaries at will …or execute any regime change businesses and also spend millions of dollars to cultivate and build a favourable opinion in the public, etc.

Where killing and subjugation of innocent, defenceless people is taken as adventure, as a fun in the battle fields and in the media; it is projected as a sacred duty being performed by the allied forces to protect the preferred western way of life at home.
--------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for None

Posted by: A Khokar at April 7, 2008 4:38 PM

I'm still waiting on you to more fully discuss rape as a defensive action in wartime as codified in the Qur'an and the ahadith.

Don't have the money? Spare me, the Saudis are the richest people on earth. They just have a distribution problem.

They ought to bring about and devise some ‘21st Century Global Hegemonic Policy’ like ‘Global war on terror’ and get issued an open licence to exterminate the adversaries at will …

They already have that, it is called Islamic Supremacism, and it is also codified in the Qur'an and the ahadith.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 7, 2008 5:25 PM

The Case of Muslim Devotees

I believe in the Truth of the Last Message of Almighty; our living God; which is universal and for the whole of the mankind. It is called Islam. It confirms all the old true denominations along with their prophets (peace be upon them all). It contains the commandments duly reformed, upgraded and offering the best of the solutions for the peace and harmony for the people of today on this planet Earth. All the previous prophets came as Sheppard of their individual flocks. They all have duly prophesised the coming of Last prophet (pbuh) to come with the final message to complete His religion of peace and harmony, which is now with us duly shaped as Islam.

This latest Word of God is the source of blessing for the whole of the mankind. This is a treasure lying out there and it will not be fair that it is not shared or delivered to all the fellow human being that I find them immersed and drowned in ignorance leading their lives in lust and leisure. They are pursuing the rapacious greed and have since wronged their souls. The entire planet is infested with hypocrisy, oppression, deceit, subjugation and deprivation. The whole of mankind is suffering and is laid divided into have and have not. This planet is in dire need of ‘Love’ and ‘Absolute Justice’ in the light of God’s Latest Message; which can only be rescued with; ‘Love for all, and Hatred for None’.

I feel like filling the entire stratosphere above the surface of this planet with love and devotion. The compassionate and loving people have to come forward. Any body may teach but ‘we learn only from those we love’ says Johaan Von Eckerman, and ‘where there is love, no room is too small’; says Talmud.

We all have to strive very hard so that this message of God reaches all the Joes trekking in the streets. Because…‘for every beauty there is an eye somewhere to see it. For every truth there is an ear somewhere to hear it. For every love there is a heart somewhere to receive it;" says Ivan Panin.

Our God is the most Compassionate, Gracious and loving God. He is in love with the best of His creature; we the human beings. Being in Love and having finalized the religion for us all; He also admonishes the believers more firmly to reverence the God and His Law; lest they are detracted and become the recipient of wraths of old arrogant peoples which He does not want to exercise at this stage. In a race; when leaping for the final bounds; ones flimsy wavering may not be acceptable.

I know that strong admonishing quotations found in Holy Quran are some times hijacked on purpose and are misquoted out of context to malign this ‘Message of Love’. But the stooges fond of misappropriation; they may not be aware of it that; while deep in love; love demands the deeper devotions and knows no dithering; even to risk one’s own life. So is the case of Muslim devotees.

You need to be in it; to win it.
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Love for all, Hatred for None

Posted by: A Khokar at April 7, 2008 6:48 PM

A Khobar,

Treating your note above as a short essay, I would have to give it a D. You need to learn how to avoid repetitious platitudes and cliches, and otherwise tighten up your arguments. Passion is good, but, like seasoning in food, it is best when used sparingly, and any case it is no substitute for reason and thought. A good course in English composition would also help.

Posted by: Eastview at April 7, 2008 7:16 PM

Physician, heal thyself...

Let me repost this...

A Khokar,

Treating your note above as a short essay, I would have to give it a D. You need to learn how to avoid repetitious platitudes and cliches, and otherwise tighten up your arguments. Passion is good, but, like seasoning in food, it is best when used sparingly, and in any case it is no substitute for reason and thought. A good course in English composition would also help.

Posted by: Eastview at April 7, 2008 7:22 PM

Allah is not "God". Allah called himself "Allah" (actually Mohammed made it up, but follow me here) so he would like to be called "Allah".

God is a different entity, described totally differently. God wants to give us his Presence. Allah wants you to earn a Priapism and repetitively rip the hymens of scarred, labiectomized imaginary virgins with your Priapism. God is rational and consistent. Allah is capricious and arbitrary. They are not the same.

RAPE and AMPUTATIONS and DISMEMBERMENTS, Khokar. How are these defensive??? Come on, big guy, play ball.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 7, 2008 7:36 PM

A Khokar, the thoughts and words found inside the Qu'ran are not instigated by the Creator. The Qu'ranic source originates from the mind of a sixth century human being whose followers then cut and remove portions of the female genitals in the belief that Allah is pleased if the Muslim performs these acts on others, or believes Allah is pleased if they allow these acts to be performed on them. Asinine for anyone to believe Allah is pleased and happy when Muslim men and women behave with these thoughts in mind. The set of thoughts and beliefs that encourage humans to act this way is evil. Any book that would espouse and promulgate such thoughts is an evil book. The Qu'ran is an insidious and evil book. The world would be a much better place if people thought Islam on par with the Incan and Mayan religions. These two religions generated thoughts in people's minds where the priests then marched the kids up the steps of the pyramid and then threw them into the fires below, doing so to make their god happy and gay.

Let me digress a bit now. In the picture of protesters to this blog post, whose flag is it with the crescent and star? A Khokar, the United States of America has its flag on the surface of the Moon. The entire surface sphere of the Moon is a United States territory or possesion. It is ours and never will an Islamic minded individual set foot on our lunar territory. Never will there be any law or custom or ritual of Islam on the Moon for human beings to degenerate and degrade themselves with.

A Khokar, the words and thoughts generated by the Qu'ran would retard and injure her. You sound like you want to be a good person, but A Khokar, believe me, the Qu'ran is not inspired from the Creator.

Posted by: k24anson at April 7, 2008 7:47 PM

Concerned Citizen.

Please see Daniel Pipes, from New York Sun, June 2005.

Found at: http://www.danielpipes.org/article/2714

Pipes thoroughly establishes that Jews, Christians and Muslims are talking about the same thing.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at April 7, 2008 8:21 PM

A Khokar ...

Honestly, it isn't going to matter WHAT you say. Whether there is or isn't anything beautiful about Islam is COMPLETELY BESIDE THE POINT WHILE PLOTS AROUND THE WORLD TO KILL THE INFIDEL ABOUND.

In fact, there have been more than 10,800 attacks, killing hundreds of thousands of people, and you people have done NOTHING -- NOTHING. The heads of the eight mahdhabs sit quietly back while Bin Laden butchers nonbelievers, while Muslim women are subjected to a total incarceration from cradle to grave, and while it's fine with you guys if INFIDELS spill their blood trying to protect Muslims from the agressions of their own jihadists.

NOTHING YOU SAY MEANS ANYTHING, and I am sick of this bullshit PR from mealy-mouthed people repeating "Islam is a religion of piece" as if they're hypnotized to SAFE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT THE ENEMY, apparently on the hope that nobody will slit YOUR throat while you "testify" for Allah.

You want to "testify for Allah".

Then you get your cowardly little butts out in the street and PROTEST BIN LADEN AND ALL VIOLENCE IN THE NAME OF ISLAM.

If you had the guts to do THAT, this whole thing would be over in about 3 weeks.

But you don't. You try this piecemeal bullshit like Turkey trying to clean up the ahaditha of debased misogyny and violence toward everything "other" and won't clean up the feud-based desert tribalism that you just can't wait to dump on Western civilization so you can keep treating women like possessions no matter where on the planet you transplant yourselves.

No. Grow a spine and take of this problem, which is YOUR PROBLEM AND WE SHOULD SPILL NOT ONE MORE OUNCE OF BLOOD OR SPEND ONE MORE PENNY OF OUR MONEY CLEANING IT UP FOR YOU.

Posted by: Morgaan Sinclair at April 7, 2008 8:28 PM

From Pipes

Scriptural: The Koran itself in several places insists that its God is the same as the God of Judaism and Christianity. The most direct statement is one in which Muslims are admonished to tell Jews and Christians "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our God and your God is One, and to Him we do submit" (E.H. Palmer translation of Sura 29:46) Of course, the verse can also be rendered "our Allah and your Allah is One" (as it is in the notorious Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation)

WRONG, or every statement in the Qur'an would have to be assumed to be accurate using the same logic.

Historical: Chronologically, Islam followed after Judaism and Christianity, but the Koran claims Islam actually preceded the other monotheisms. In Islamic doctrine (Sura 3:67), Abraham was the first Muslim. Moses and Jesus introduced mistakes into the Word of God; Muhammad brought it down perfectly. Islam views Judaism and Christianity as flawed versions of itself, correct on essentials but wrong in important details. This outlook implies that all three faiths share the God of Abraham.

WRONG and ditto, I mean this is really stupid. Did you fall for this?

Linguistic: Just as Dieu and Gott are the French and German words for God, so is Allah the Arabic equivalent, a word older than Islam. In part, this identity of meaning can be seen from cognates: In Hebrew, the word for God is Elohim, a cognate of Allah. In Aramaic, the language spoken by Jesus, God is Allaha. In the Maltese language, which is unique because it is Arabic-based but spoken by a predominantly Catholic people, God is Alla.

RELEVANCE??? Islam came later and appropriated variant elements of Judaic and Christian traditions. This does not mean the "named" entity is the same.

Further, most Jews and Christians who speak Arabic routinely use the word Allah to refer to God. (Copts, the Christians of Egypt, do not.) The Old and New Testaments in Arabic use this word. In the Arabic-language Bible, for instance, Jesus is referred to as the son of Allah. Even translations carried out by Christian missionaries, such as the famous one done in 1865 by Cornelius Van Dyke, refer to Allah, as do missionary discussions.

DITTO, meaningless.

The God=Allah equation means that, however hostile political relations may be, a common "children of Abraham" bond does exist and its exploration can one day provide a basis for interfaith comity. Jewish-Christian dialogue has made great strides and Jewish-Christian-Muslim trialogue could as well.

NO THANKS on the interfaith comity. I have no need for a false religion, whether or not it claims to be derived from mine.

Before that can happen, however, Muslims must first recognize the validity of alternate approaches to the one God. That means leaving behind the supremacism, extremism, and violence of the current Islamist phase.

PATHETIC. You would think he doesn't even know any Muslims. Is he writing to the unwary Muslim, ignorant of the ideological demands of his own religion?

I'm sorry, Morgaan, I know you mean well, and actually, I wish you well since I know you won't give up, but Islam from my perspective just has too many ossified strictures to evolve or mutate into something benign, especially at the rate the malignant elements are growing, no matter how many mahdhabs you count. No kumbaya for me.

Benedict, Paleologus, Khoury and so many others make the well reasoned case that the JudaeoChristian God and Allah are in diametrically different in many attributes. They are similar only in those that Mohammed appropriated to accomplish his goals (omniscience, omnipresence, eternal, etc.). Pipes is also well meaning, but frankly, he lacks the theological credentials to refute the distinction.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 7, 2008 8:52 PM

Supposing we just accept the premise no one knows for sure about anything.

If I were to take my pick then, not knowing which religion is "The
Truth," well, if Jesus did perform those miracles in the New Testament, then Jesus is the dude. And then ...? it will be Jesus that defines what God is all about. Islam is bogus because Jesus is the dude.

Aren't most religions just a bunch of yak-yak-yakitty platitudes anywa? But if The Creator sent a guy named Jesus, and if Jesus did miracles for others to see and then write about for certain future generations to read and then to know about ...

And obviously, this train of thought needs to be tweaked and reworked to get it sounding right. I gotta go do something else right now though ...

Bye.

Posted by: k24anson at April 7, 2008 8:53 PM

k24anson,

Obviously I have a preference. The distinction I wish to make is only that they are different, and, therefore, Islam should not be allowed to hide in the laurels of these other religions and expect the benefits of association.

We have too much taqiyya and kitman as it is, with semantic word games being played, where the Western religious mind fills in meanings not naturally inherent in a Mohametan's dialogue.

There is very little common ground, and such as there is is hollow. Allah's commands, to the Muslim mind, are eternal. They are always running resident in the background of the true believer's mind. They cause him to feel slighted or victimized, to be envious, to take offense, to be enraged, to desire vengeance and at times to exact it, and salve his conscience afterward.

If you know your enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. Sun Tzu

Know your God, and know your enemies' god. There are a lot of battles ahead.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 7, 2008 9:15 PM

Let's see, where was I ...

Khokar,

How exactly are RAPE and AMPUTATIONS and DISMEMBERMENTS defensive???

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 7, 2008 9:29 PM

Allah is not the God of the Bible - Allah is not the God of Jews and Christians.

Even the most novice of researchers will discover that Allah is not the God of the Bible. This is an excellent resource because he makes some of the best points I've found that are further backed by scripture from both the Old/New Testament:

http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/is_allah_not_God.html

Posted by: champ at April 7, 2008 10:12 PM

Dear All,

The books Torah, Gospel and Glorious Quran all are the words of God. All were sent down by the God for the guidance of the people as per the requirement and all the books do specify their extent and territories of teachings. The book of Torah was for the guidance of Judaic followed by Jesus, who was given the Gospel in order to reform the disintegrating 12 tribes (sheep) of Judaic. Both the books claim to carry a special revelations and solutions as sought by the people of the time and required to serve the purpose in accordance with the attained level of their consciousness.

Where as Quran is the last Book revealed by God, a book of guidance given to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) which confirms and validate the old teachings. It is not only meant for the Muslims but this book is for the entire mankind… to come.

The God Almighty reveals to Muhammad (pbuh) and says:

[14: 2] “Alif Lam Ra. This is a Book which We have revealed to thee that thou mayest bring mankind out of the depths of darkness into light, by the command of their Lord, to the path of the Mighty, the Praiseworthy”

[2: 137] “Say ye, 'We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob and his children, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to all other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them; and to Him we submit ourselves.”

SURELY there is no coercion in religion and Allah knowth his people well that they are suppose to take time to comprehend and adapt to the new teachings. Thus God also leaves a provision and assures;

[2 : Verse 63]; “ Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - whichever party from among these truly believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good deeds, shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve.”
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Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar at April 8, 2008 1:50 AM

It is Abraham’s Religion.

This will be appropriate to mention here again that ‘Darwin theory of Evolution’, of human specie reveals that centuries back we used to be apes and as the time passed by; man gradually got refined and through the process of evaluation it took its present shape as a ‘civilised man’. One may not like to believe all this but it does support our common belief that man has certainly been through some kind of evolution to reach at the present stage. The display of knowledge in the nature and its observation by the ancient man as well as dictates of environments did play their part to achieve him the refinement and attaining of adult hood of man’s conscious; starting at a lesser state to a modest and then to present day superior form.

Likewise, the history of our Modern Religion which is just about six thousands years old that when God Almighty revealed the word of enlightenment to our common religious father Abraham*; the word revealed was Peace; means Islam. Some other ancient and dieing religious denominations like Buddhism, Hinduism and Zoroaster etc, were also present as the diminishing far flung civilisations. Abraham* took a start with the very basic primary teachings of enlightenment; followed by Moses* whose Judaic era occupies a space of about some 1200 years. This is the most trivial era faced by the people chosen by God where they went through many trials and tests in order to get transformed and stay clean to become the righteous peoples of God.

Judaic old era was an era of infancy in our modern religion. Present day Jews are still stuck in the past. They may be rightly relishing their past when they used to be at the top of the world as the recipient of all the vast proviso of blessings from their God. Initially it used to be all a state of peace and plenty; all over a honky- dorey and miraculous mun-o-salva was provided in abundance for them. Infancy does demand a kindness and protective hands to save guard the siblings. They got all that but they were also, later admonished, punished and rejected when they grew old and tried to betray God and manipulate the teachings. They were raised from being low of the low under Pharaoh in Egypt; to the most favoured nation on earth in Palestine till they became the transgressors and earned the wrath of God.

Any how Moses had imparted the teachings and had tried to take the masses to higher levels. At this stage the Judaic were in dire need of reformation and Jesus* took up the task of ‘Reformer’; there after; the Christianity took its start and brought some glorious period in the life of mankind.

The show of our living God goes on and in order to achieve the complete adulthood of man’s conscious and take it up to its summit; God Almighty sent Prophet Mohammad* with the glorious book; Quran and completed His religion for the entire mankind through Islam.

God through His messengers delivered His word in a planned successive and progressive manner to take the mankind to its higher status; step by step. There is no monopoly exercised by any messenger of God at any stage in this successive deliverance of word of God and neither any scripture supports this monopoly.

As said earlier; the water does not stop flowing under bridges. After going through a stage of reformation under Christianity; the caravans of God kept on moving for their new destinations in the future. Islam at its summit is not a new religion. It is, in essence, the same message and guidance which Allah revealed to all prophets before Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him came.

Allah says in the Quran (2:137)"Say; We believe in ALLAH and that which has been revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and in that which was given to Moses and Jesus and other Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them and to HIM we submit." (3-85). Islam happens to be the path of all those who are obedient to Allah and who establish peace with Him and His creatures.”

Present day Muslims may be feeble, and destitute; they are being mocked and they know that oppressing forces are all out to cease their lands, subjugate them and take away their God given economic resources from them. (Invariably all the Prophets were mocked and jeered; they were persecuted and even killed) It is not something new for the Muslims. They know it well. Muslim may be weak but in God they trust is not weak. This is God’s design; Islam has come to stay and it will prevail.
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Love for all, Hatred for none

(*Peace be upon them all)

(Source: http://www.alislam.org/islam/islam-peaceful-religion.pdf)

Posted by: A Khokar at April 8, 2008 2:52 AM

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 7, 2008 9:29 PM

Dear Concerned Citizen,

I do not know of any verse in the Holy Quran which promotes the social crimes like rape. Where as amputation and dismemberment has been recommended as a sever punishment in respect of certain crimes to cleans the society of evil and vices among from the people; provided society is just and free of vices and there is all peace and plenty.

Above punishment are prescribed; the way capital punishment is recommended and enforced through out the world for heinous crimes. Capital punishment is very much there even in so called present day western civilised world.

Cutting of hands as a punishment was a common practice in those days. In Moses earlier days when Moses had confronted Pharaoh; Pharaoh warned Moses and other participants of cutting of their hands and feet. The Holy Quran describes the story:

Pharaoh said; [7:124], 'Most surely will I cut off your hands and your feet on account of your disobedience. Then will I surely crucify you all together.'

And same is repeated in other verse [26:49],”Pharaoh said, 'You have believed in him before I gave you leave? He is surely your chief who has taught you sorcery. But you shall know the consequences thereof. I will most surely cut off your hands and your feet on account of your disobedience and I will most surely crucify you all.”

In the same context and as per the prevalent norms then in the old society; God suggested to Prophet Muhammad* that punishment be awarded to the people who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land. God says in [5:33], ‘The only reward of those, who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to create disorder in the land, is that they be slain or crucified or their hands and feet be cut off on account of their enmity, or they be expelled from the land. That shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a great punishment;’

Even in the present day wars; in order to maim and mute or to disrupt and inflict injury; as a precursor to the main launch of full fledge attacks; ambushes and raids are carried out on the same lines to deter and disrupt and create the fear in the hearts and lines of enemy.
--------------------------------
Love for all, Hatred for none.

Posted by: A Khokar at April 8, 2008 4:52 AM

Posted by: Eastview at April 7, 2008 7:22 PM

Ear East view,

Thank you very much for your kind comments. I anm honoured! Surely all of us do need improvements. I do strive hard and hope with the passage of time you will find less of Ooh and aahs in writing.

Cordially
Yours,
A Khokar

Posted by: A Khokar at April 8, 2008 5:38 AM

Posted by: Eastview at April 7, 2008 7:22 PM

Dear East view,

Thank you very much for your kind comments. I am honoured! Surely all of us do need improvements. I do strive hard and hope with the passage of time you will find less of Ooh and aahs in writing.

Cordially
Yours,
A Khokar

Posted by: A Khokar at April 8, 2008 5:39 AM

Posted by: Eastview at April 7, 2008 7:22 PM

Dear East View,

Thank you very much for your kind comments. I feel honoured!
Surely all of us do need improvements. I do strive hard and hope with the passage of time you will find less of Ooh and aahs in my writing.

Cordially
Yours,
A Khokar

Posted by: A Khokar at April 8, 2008 5:42 AM

I do not know of any verse in the Holy Quran which promotes the social crimes like rape.

Pure taqiyya, but now you do:

004.024
YUSUFALI: Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.
PICKTHAL: And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And all married women except those whom your right hands possess (this is) Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are (all women) besides those, provided that you seek (them) with your property, taking (them) in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Sunaan Abu Dawud: Book 11, number 2150
Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto your save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."" [The Qur’an verse is 4:24].

Sahih Muslim Chapter 29
One can have sexual intercourse with a captive woman after she is clear of her period and/or delivery. If she has a husband then her marriage is abrogated after she becomes a captive (Quran 4:24)…

Sahih Muslim 8.3432
Abu Sa'id al-Khudri (Allah her pleased with him) reported that at the Battle of Hanain Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that:" And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (iv. 24)

Sahih Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 59, Number 459:
Narrated Ibn Muhairiz:
I entered the Mosque and saw Abu Said Al-Khudri and sat beside him and asked him about Al-Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus). Abu Said said, "We went out with Allah's Apostle for the Ghazwa of Banu Al-Mustaliq and we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us and we loved to do coitus interruptus. So when we intended to do coitus interruptus, we said, 'How can we do coitus interruptus before asking Allah's Apostle who is present among us?" We asked (him) about it and he said, 'It is better for you not to do so, for if any soul (till the Day of Resurrection) is predestined to exist, it will exist."

The following are NOT defensive actions
a) Rape
b) Slavery
c) Wife stealing
d) Making someone watch you rape their wife
e) Ejaculating on someone
f) Looting
g) Dismembering a captive
h) Murdering old people
i) Murdering disabled people
j) Killing people because they said something
k) Killing people because they held a belief
l) Killing someone because they didn't actively help you subjugate them
m) Killing someone because they didn't want to accept your religion (as their own)
n) Killing someone because they disagreed with you
o) Killing someone because they made fun of you or your religion
p) Expanding your territory

Even in the present day wars; in order to maim and mute or to disrupt and inflict injury; as a precursor to the main launch of full fledge attacks; ambushes and raids are carried out on the same lines to deter and disrupt and create the fear in the hearts and lines of enemy.

You usually obfuscate by pretending all Muslim warfare is defensive. At least now you describe offensive attacks and justify them with the Qur'an. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

Whether you like it or not, you are stuck with the Sahih texts. Rape is condoned by Islam. It is even used as a judicial punishment in Pakistan. How holy.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 8, 2008 7:25 AM

Oh, and the Christian God and Allah are not the same. I would greatly appreciate it if you would refer to your deity as Allah to avoid confusion about which you are talking about.

[Allah] through His messengers delivered His word in a planned successive and progressive manner to take the mankind to its higher status; step by step. There is no monopoly exercised by any messenger of [Allah] at any stage in this successive deliverance of word of [Allah] and neither any scripture supports this monopoly.

You either really don't know your deen, or you are practicing dissimulation. Your religion teaches that Mohammed's "revelation" overwrote what came before such that you ignore the pre-existing texts. How is that not a "monopoly"?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 8, 2008 7:36 AM

"If the world was like this ice cream cone, Billy Paul won't have to kill so many people."

- Paul Simon during a parody of "Billy Jack" on Saturday Night Live.

Posted by: tanstaafl at April 8, 2008 10:34 AM

AK -

"Oh, and the Christian God and Allah are not the same. I would greatly appreciate it if you would refer to your deity as Allah to avoid confusion about which you are talking about."

Posted by: Concerned Citizen

>>Amen to that!! Such lies, AK! Allah is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; and closer examination of the Bible verses the Qur'an proves that this is true.

LIE: "Allah is the Same as the God of the Bible"

"This statement is usually made by those who attempt to associate Christianity and Islam together in the spirit of ecumenism, with perhaps the eventual goal of unity between the two. Often, the claim is also made by Muslims who seek to assuage Christian opposition to Islam, often as a prelude to dawah, extending an "invitation" to accept Islam. To promote this, the superficial characteristic of monotheism is emphasised, while the vast differences between God and Allah are ignored."

"THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD IN THE BIBLE VERSES ALLAH IN THE QUR'AN"

"There are many differences between the attributes of God and of Allah."

"First, there is the attribute of knowability, the idea that human beings may know God and enjoy a personal relationship with the Creator. God, as He is revealed in the Bible, allows Himself to be known and fellowshipped with on a personal basis by those who have trusted in Him through His Son Jesus Christ. John 17:3 says, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

"The Bible presents God as a being who reveals Himself to man, and who encourages us to learn of Him and enter into ever closer fellowship with Him. The Bible presents God who had a personal relationship with Abraham such that Abraham was called "The friend of God." The God of the Bible wants for mankind to come to Him, be cleansed of their sins, and enjoy this close personal fellowship. "Draw nigh unto God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." (James 4:8)

"Contrast this with the Quranic description of Allah as unknowable. Indeed, in Islam, it is considered blasphemous to "presume" that one can know God or claim any sort of close, personal fellowship with Allah. This theological view developed early in Islam, being espoused by al-Ghazali:"

Read the rest here:
http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch3.html

Posted by: champ at April 8, 2008 2:49 PM

Dear Concerned Citizen and Friends,

As we all know that pre set minds and preconceived ideas, always bring about the wrong and twisted results. While discussing the women prisoners in Islam and how they can be said as ‘ possessed by the right hand’ before they can be taken into marriage. This may not be fair if the verse is read in isolation and then filth of all sort stack up around it. God Almighty reveals a commandment regarding 'marrying women' and gives out a clear cut verdict. Subject is started in preceding verses to verse [4:24]. God says:-
[4:22] And marry not those women whom your fathers married, except what has already passed. It is a thing foul and hateful and an evil way.

[4:23] Forbidden to you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your fathers' sisters, and your mothers' sisters, and brother's daughters, and sister's daughters, and your foster mothers that have given you suck, and your foster-sisters, and the mothers of your wives, and your step-daughters, who are your wards being born of your wives to whom you have gone in - but if you have not gone in unto them, there is no blame on you - and the wives of your sons that are from your loins; and it is forbidden to you to have two sisters together in marriage, except what has already passed; surely Allah is Most Forgiving Merciful.

[4:24] And forbidden to you are married women[1], except such as your right hands possess[2]. This has Allah enjoined on you. And allowed to you are those beyond that, that you seek them by means of your property, marrying them properly and not committing fornication. And for the benefit you receive from them, give them their dowries, as fixed, and there is no blame on you what you do by mutual agreement after the fixing of the dowry. Surely, Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.

[4:25] And whoso of you cannot afford to marry free believing women, let him marry what your right hands possess, namely, your believing hand-maids. And Allah knows your faith best; you are all one from another; so marry them with the leave of their masters and give them their dowries, according to what is fair, they being chaste, not committing fornication, nor taking secret paramours. And if, after they are married, they are guilty of lewdness, they shall have half the punishment prescribed for free married women. This is for him among you who fears lest he should commit sin. And that you restrain yourselves is better for you; and Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

[4:26] Allah desires to make clear to you, and guide you to the path of those before you and to turn to you in mercy. And Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.

[4:27] And Allah wishes to turn to you in mercy, but those who follow their low desires wish that you should incline wholly towards evil.

[4:28] Allah desires to lighten your burden, for man has been created weak.

Notes:
[1] Here married women means a Muslim married women, a free and a chaste women.
[2] This means that where as a woman who is already married to a man cannot be taken in marriage by another person, an exception is made here in case of women who are taken prisoner in a war waged by a non-Muslim state against a Muslim state.
In case of defeat of Non-Muslim there may be many a prisoners of war which may include the women prisoners also. It happened in the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This is the significance of the word Ma malakat Aimanakum in the verse.. Such married women, if they become converted to Islam; (first having set free prior to conversion) and there after could not be sent back to their non-Muslim husbands. These women may be married to new Muslim husbands. For detailed note on the subject; ‘what your right hand possess’ will be dealt with submitted separately.

The verses are self explanatory to quash any allegation concocted around it!

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Love for all, Hatred for none

Posted by: A Khokar at April 8, 2008 6:59 PM

AK here is another sample of the filth that is Islam and the disgusting monster that is MoHAMtheMED your own Imams tell about how to rape women:

"During a question answer session in East London Mosque, preacher Imam Abdul Makin was asked by a niqabi muslima about recent fatwa from a well known Imam .

Naqabi Woman: “One eyed hooked Imam Hamza Mesri said muslims can kill British infidels and have sex with their wives and daughters, Do you agree with him?”

Imam: “It is not what Imam Hamza said nor is there a question of my agreeing with him or not. It is in Quran thus those are Allah’s orders.”

N.W.: “But why would Allah tell muslims to kill and rape innocent non muslims?”

Imam: “Because Non-muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet. If you don’t believe me, here is the legal authority, the top muslim lawyer of Britain, Anjem Choudhary (Video).”

N.W. “ But our Prophet was sent as a mercy for all the humanity; he never hurt any body in his life”

Imam: “Yes he never hurt a muslim in his life. But Allah said non-muslim are lowest beasts and worst creatures in ayas 8.22,8.55,95.5 and 98.6 and muslim are ordered to kill them."

N.W.:” But did prophet approve of killing them and raping their wives?”

Imam: “Yes he did. He not only approved of such acts, he and his sahabas practiced it regularly under Allah’s orders. He was helpless in it... If you don’t believe me , you have to believe sahih hadiths. I will quote you two hadiths about his typical day after a raid. These hadiths are about the raid on jewish village Khaibar whose chief was Kinana who had gorgeous 17 year old wife Safia. Prophet tortured and beheaded Kinana in front of Safia and raped her all night afterwards.

* Sahih Bukhari, volume 5, Book 59, Number 512: Narrated Anas: Then the inhabitants of Khaibar came out running on the roads. The Prophet had their men killed, their offspring and woman taken as captives. Safiya was amongst the captives, She first came in the share of Dahya Alkali but later on she belonged to the Prophet (prophet took her away from him after giving Dahya two women and five men in exchange for Safia, Ref. Sahih Muslim 8:3328) .
* Sirat e Rasulullah, Ibn Hisham, page 766 “Safiyah was captured in the Khaibar raid and was claimed by the apostle as his share of booty.. She was then seventeen. She was groomed and made-up for the Prophet by Umm Sulaim, the mother of Anas ibn Malik. They spent the night there. In the early dawn, the Prophet suspected some movement near the tent) . He went out to enquire and saw Abu Ayyub.. He asked him what he was doing near his tent. He replied: "I was afraid for you with this young lady. You had killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives, and till recently she was an unbeliever. I was really afraid for you on her account and was guarding you." The Prophet prayed for Abu Ayyub al-Ansari (Ibn Hisham, p. 766)

The description of the steamy all night action between the 62 year old Prophet and teenage Safia left the niqabi woman very depressed and the male audience very horny. Imam himself got excited and started thinking about the possibility of killing an infidel and raping his wife, who knows Allah could reward him with paradise for following in the footsteps of his most beloved apostle..

Imam Abdul, after a lot of thinking and contemplating, figured out that killing is too risky in England. He could end up behind bars for life. Rape is desirable, less risky and more fun. His congregation muslim members could help him in this Islamic duty by providing an alibi that he was preaching in the mosque at the time of the rape (in case he was apprehended).. He talked to them about this favour.. Seven of them agreed to testify for him provided Imam will do the same for them if they got caught themselves for their rape jihad.

The Imam had been lusting for a while on a good looking kafira, who lived alone in the neighbourhood.. Late one night he entered her apartment, captured her at a knife point and brutally raped her. To complete the sunna he took her very expensive computer cell phone as halal booty (aya 8.1).

The woman had seen this weird looking bearded pot bellied Imam walking in and out of the neighbourhood mosque. She reported him to the police and the Imam was nabbed. As promised the seven namazis testified for him and provided the alibi that Imam was preaching at the time of the rape.

But alas! DNA test contradicted their testimony. He and his seven namazi friends were all sentenced to prison terms.

Their burqa-clad wives, present in the court, couldn’t believe this miscarriage of justice. They yelled abuse at the judge for punishing their husbands for practicing their religion. They asked why was an act approved by Quran and practiced by holy prophet is punishable in a country which claims freedom of religion? It was clearly a discrimination against Muslims and definitely an islamophobia. Now they realized how important it is for Muslims to implement sharia in England as suggested by the learned Archbishop.

But Imam Abdul had no regrets. For the first time in his life he had a white woman and in addition he gained a lot of sawab for following in the footsteps of his beloved prophet..

The real losers were the pious namazis who neither could enjoy a kafira nor could gain any sawab (virtue) but ended up in the monkey house (khaya peeya kuch nahin, glass tora, barana).."

Posted by: savsiv at April 8, 2008 7:15 PM

Nice try, Khokar, but Bukhari and Muslim were better Muslims than you are, and I've got 1.2 Billion Muslims to back me up.

They say those hadith inspired 4:24. I believe them, and if you were anything but a pathetic dissimulator, you would, too.

an exception is made here in case of women who are taken prisoner in a war waged by a non-Muslim state against a Muslim state. In case of defeat of Non-Muslim there may be many a prisoners of war which may include the women prisoners also. It happened in the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). This is the significance of the word Ma malakat Aimanakum in the verse.. Such married women, if they become converted to Islam; (first having set free prior to conversion) and there after could not be sent back to their non-Muslim husbands. These women may be married to new Muslim husbands. For detailed note on the subject; ‘what your right hand possess’ will be dealt with submitted separately.

The verses are self explanatory to quash any allegation concocted around it!

Yes, they ARE self explanatory. AND they are explained in EXACTLY the way they are apparent in the ahadith. Non-Muslim women can be taken captive, in ANY kind of war, including offensive, and can be used as sexual toys, have their marriages forcibly annulled, be forcibly marriaged (sometimes after lots are drawn for them) and have a religion falsely ASSIGNED to them to assuage the conscience of the rapist. Not exactly defensive maneuvers, Khokar. This is humiliation, degradation, denigration, intimidation, etc., and you want to try to pretend that it becomes a sanctified Muslim "marriage"?????????

You are one real sicko to keep dissimulating for this sick religion, Khokar. God have mercy on your sick, very dead soul.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 8, 2008 11:15 PM

Oh, and please, Khokar, please explain how the women who became "captives of the right hand" were on the Muslim defensive battle turf. Were the Muslims being attacked by infidel women and children??

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 8, 2008 11:21 PM

Islam: "Lies for All, Hope for None"

Posted by: champ at April 9, 2008 2:07 AM

Posted by: savsiv at April 8, 2008 7:15 PM

Dear Savis,

Islam is a Final Word of God in religion. This is a religion which is selected for the mankind by our God Almighty and has been nurtured and groomed for many centuries by imparting the necessary education and guidance in the old denominations by the prophets till it has reached at its summit in Islam. The long journey of Islam has passed through many a tests and trials.

Islam Guidance is universal and a solution for all the problems of mankind at present and for all the times to come. The Truth and Wisdom of Islam stands outs very clear of any ambiguity or blemish.

One person Ahu Hamza that you mentioned, can not be claimed as authority on Islam neither Islam be questioned or made responsible for his malicious conduct. The man is fighting for his own life and survival. He has been trying to create a cult, an assemblage of few on the roads of UK to full fill his own vested interests and at the same time taking a refuge in religion by twisting the facts with the view to mislead the people. It is a stark disservice on his part and also creating and adding a scenario to become a part of ‘Hot Media Hype’ set against Islam and to blemish the Final Word of God for the forces pitched against Islam to see it go down.
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Love for all, Hatred for None

Posted by: A Khokar at April 9, 2008 4:29 AM

Dear Champ,

They say know a man before you cut any sarcastic remarks about him. He may prove to be only fiend of yours that you may have? In case of Islam; you need to study your own religion first... more and see what it says about Islam. For instance see what is written and prophesied in Deuteronomy 18 vrese18; in it true contexts.
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Love for all, Hatred for None

Posted by: A Khokar at April 9, 2008 4:44 AM

Dear Champ,

In above submission;

For 'fiend'
Please read 'Friend'

Best of Regards
A Khokar

Posted by: A Khokar at April 9, 2008 4:50 AM

Dear Concerned Citizen,

I am obliged for you kind remarks and prayers for me for the mercy of God Almighty. May God bless you and guide you on to right path; but how do you know that I am a sick, dead soul and not you?
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Love for all, Hatred for None

Posted by: A Khokar at April 9, 2008 5:01 AM

Concerned Citizen, the jugular of Islam is the belief that the words and thoughts of the Qu'ran are inspired by the Creator. A Khokar and his ilk need to see with their own two eyes a dude walking down the streets of Times Square in Manhattan, and this guy then gathers a crowd around himself and another person, let's say, him and another man with white eyeballs who is obviously blind of sight, and A Khokar and his ilk then watch The Main Dude guy say a few words ... and the guy with white eyeballs suddenly has eyeballs that function. A Khokar and his ilk need to see a miracle, and then they will listen to the true messenger of God. God has deliberately kept A Khokar from believing in a guy who did miracles two thousand years ago. This is God's business with ITs creation who calls himself "A Khokar," and I won't now further this train of thought.

I could have put this story in better context to make it appear more personal to A Khokar and to all the pathetic followers of that perversity, that obscenity of thought from the Qu'ran, but the fact remains even with the words of the New Testament describing the miracles of Jesus, A Khokar and his ilk will always find a rational to think and believe Jesus couldn't, or didn't do miracles, that he was only "just a good man" of some sort, but the time will come when Islam is rendered archaic and worthless to the masses of people in existence a thousand years from today.

Islam will bite the dust of history just as the Mayan and Incan religions did. I hope to be able to watch the Beast die a quick death. I actually hope to be known as the one to cause the death of this dinosaur, this beast. That is a cool thought.

...

Posted by: k24anson at April 9, 2008 6:39 AM

Khokar,

but how do you know that I am a sick, dead soul and not you?

That's easy.

Because planning to rape a woman is sick. Because being able to rape a woman is sick. Because raping a woman is sick. Because raping a woman after decaptitating her husband right in front of her is sick. Because raping a woman and ejaculating on her right in front of her still living husband and then decapitating him is sick.

Because the ones that did these things, Mohammed and his companions, are your heroes.

Because you would have to be completely corrupted and cynical to portray having obtained women from their homes as "captives of your right hand", when they were never on any battlefield, when they were never any threat to you, as a defensive action.

Because you apologize and dissimulate for a book that makes you think that all of the above is acceptible. You would have to be spiritually dead to not only believe all of that, but lie to protect it.

That's how I know.

At least the poster Munawar had the integrity to realize and admit the above was wrong and disavow the hadith and the sahaba.

You, however, are spiritually dead, Khokar. So are all of your companions, relatives and imams who reinforce this in you. That's why it's a "cult of death". You don't live, you merely exist in a sea of spiritual death.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 9, 2008 7:49 AM

No AK you still did not answer the question you did not refute what Islam has to say about rape. You still agree that women can be raped and taken as property because you have not refuted what the tenets of Islam say about women. Therefore you are guilty as what your cohorts do and therefore it is a sick ideology Islam. It is not the final word of God maybe your god. As far as Ahu Hamza he speaks for you and Islam and Muslims not me. That is your so called religion of peace and as much as you lie it shows it is a fake and violent religion.

Posted by: savsiv at April 9, 2008 9:06 AM

AK stated:

"For instance see what is written and prophesied in Deuteronomy 18 vrese18; in it true contexts."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

>>MUHAMMAD NEVER PERFORMED A MIRACLE, SO HE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE PROPHET FORTOLD! JESUS DID PERFORM MIRACLES, AND THIS IS WHOM THIS PASSAGE IN DUETERONOMY IS REFERRING TO. READ IT ALL:

http://www.wrestedscriptures.com/A08Islam/deuteronomy18v18-19.html

The following is from the above link:

"PROBLEM:

This is a key passage in the Moslem claims for Muhammad, whom they claim is the prophet like Moses predicted in this passage. They support their claim by producing an impressive list of ways in which Muhammad was like Moses and in which Jesus was not like Moses. This list includes the following:

1) Rejected by his people and then accepted: Moses: Yes / Jesus: No / Muhammad: Yes

2) Became a national leader:
Moses: Yes / Jesus: No / Muhammad: Yes

3) Miraculous birth:
Moses: No / Jesus: Yes / Muhammad: No

4) Encountered enemies in battle:
Moses: Yes / Jesus: No / Muhammad: Yes

5) Family - married with children:
Moses: Yes / Jesus: No / Muhammad: Yes

To answer an argument like this takes some thought, and this may not be available when being pressed by a Moslem in discussion.

SOLUTION:

There are a number of ways in which Mos