| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Dhimmi Watch | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog | Raymond Ibrahim | Robert Spencer |  |
|
|
|||||||||||
|
|
So claims Ali Eteraz, who writes here that "Wilders' obfuscations are pernicious. He conceals his xenophobic nativism by waving (incorrectly translated and randomly picked) verses of the Quran."
If this is true, of course, it substantially buttresses Eteraz's claim that the film is simply a manifestation of xenophobic nativism. But if the verses are quoted correctly, it says something about those moderate Muslims in the West who seem desperate to make sure that non-Muslims do not know what is in the Qur'an and how jihadists are using those verses to make recruits among peaceful Muslims.
You remember Ali Eteraz. He's the Muslim reformist with whom I have had several exchanges in the past -- during which he several times manifested a disheartening disingenuousness rather than the honesty we have a right to expect from reformist Muslims. Anyway, in support of his claim that Geert Wilders's notorious film Fitna mistranslates the Qur'an, he links to none other than Michael van der Galien, the European blogger who has demonstrated a touching readiness to accept his distortions. But van der Galien, in his review of Fitna to which Eteraz links, doesn't actually say that the Qur'an verses quoted in Fitna are incorrectly translated. Rather, he spends a great deal time explaining (incorrectly, but that's another story) the context of Qur'an 8:60, by referring to the surrounding verses.
So let's look at the record ourselves. Here are the Qur'an verses quoted in Fitna, exactly as they're given in the film.
"Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering to strike terror, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies." (8:60)
"Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire. Whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them, that they may feel the punishment; verily, Allah is sublime and wise." (4:56)
"Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when you have caused a bloodbath among them, bind a bond firmly on them." (47:4)
"They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they, so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and kill them wherever ye find them, and take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (4:89)
"Fight them until there is no dissension and the religion is entirely Allah's." (8:39)
Now let's look at common English translations of the Qur'an, made by Muslims as well as by non-Muslim Islamic scholars, and see if these were, as Eteraz says, "incorrectly translated." It appears that Wilders has mostly hewed closely to Abdullah Yusuf Ali's translation, but I'll consult 15 others also in search of these incorrect translations:
1. Fitna: "Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering to strike terror, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies." (8:60)
Yusuf Ali: "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies."
Nooruddin: ("Believers! It is your duty also that you) keep prepared to meet them with whatever you can afford of armed force and of mounted pickets at the frontier, to strike terror thereby into the hearts of the enemies of Allah and your enemies."
Dawood: "Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your command, so that you may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy."
Fakhry: "And make ready for them whatever you can of fighting men and horses, to terrify thereby the enemies of Allah and your enemy."
Daryabadi: "And get ready against them whatever you can of force and well-fed horses with which you may overpower Allah's enemy and your enemy."
Pickthall: "Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Hilali-Khan: "And make ready against them all you can of power, including steeds of war (tanks, planes, missiles, artillery, etc.) to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Shakir: "And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Asad: "Hence, make ready against them whatever force and war mounts you are able to muster, so that you might deter thereby the enemies of God, who are your enemies as well."
Sher Ali: "And make ready for them who fight you whatever you can of armed force and of mounted pickets at the frontier, whereby you may frighten the enemy of ALLAH and your enemy."
Muhammad Ali: And make ready for them whatever force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy."
Khalifa: "You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies."
Arberry: "Make ready for them whatever force and strings of horses you can, to terrify thereby the enemy of God and your enemy."
Palmer: "Prepare ye against them what force and companies of horse ye can, to make the enemies of God, and your enemies."
Rodwell: "Make ready then against them what force ye can, and strong squadrons whereby ye may strike terror into the enemy of God and your enemy."
Sale: "Therefore prepare against them what force ye are able, and troops of horse, whereby ye may strike a terror into the enemy of God, and your enemy."
Incorrectly translated? Only if these 16 other English translations of the Qur'an, many of which were made by Muslims, are also incorrectly translated.
It's a slog, yes, but for the record, I'll go through the others also:
2. Fitna: "Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire. Whenever their skins are cooked to a turn, we shall substitute new skins for them, that they may feel the punishment; verily, Allah is sublime and wise." (4:56)
Yusuf Ali: "Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise."
Nooruddin: "We shall soon cast into Fire all those who deny Our Messages. As often as their skins are burnt up We shall replace them with other (new) skins that they may (continually) taste (agony of) punishment. Surely, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise."
Dawood: "Those who deny Our revelations We shall burn in fire. No sooner will their skins be consumed than We shall give them other skins, so that they may trully taste the scourge. Surely God is mighty and wise."
Fakhry: "Those who have disbelieved Our Signs, We shall surely cast them into the Fire; every time their skins are burnt, We will replace them by other skins, so that they might taste the punishment. Allah indeed is Mighty and Wise!"
Daryabadi: "Verily those who disbelieve in Our revelations, them We will soon cast in the Fire. Whenever their skins are burnt up, We will change them for other skins, to keep up their tasting of the torment. Verily Allah is ever Mighty, Wise."
Pickthall: "Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise."
Hilali-Khan: "Surely! Those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, AllWise."
Shakir: "(As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise."
Asad: "Or, verily, those who are bent on denying the truth of Our messages We shall, in time, cause to endure fire: [and] every time their skins are burnt off, We shall replace them with new skins, so that they may taste suffering [in full]. Verily, God is almighty, wise."
Sher Ali: "Those who disbelieve in Our Signs, We shall soon cause them to enter Fire. As often as their skins are burnt up, WE shall give them in exchange other skins that they may continue to taste the punishment. Surely, ALLAH is Mighty and Wise."
Muhammad Ali: "Those who disbelieve in Our Messages, We shall make them enter Fire. As often as their skins are burned, We shall change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Surely Allah is ever Mighty, Wise."
Khalifa: "Surely, those who disbelieve in our revelations, we will condemn them to the hellfire. Whenever their skins are burnt, we will give them new skins. Thus, they will suffer continuously. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise."
Arberry: "Surely those who disbelieve in Our signs -- We shall certainly roast them at a Fire; as often as their skins are wholly burned, We shall give them in exchange other skins, that they may taste the chastisement. Surely God is All-mighty, All-wise."
Palmer: "Verily, those who disbelieve in our signs, we will broil them with fire; whenever their skins are well done, then we will change them for other skins, that they may taste the torment. Verily, God is glorious and wise."
Rodwell: "Those who disbelieve our signs we will in the end cast into the fire: so oft as their skins shall be well burnt, we will change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the torment. Verily God is Mighty, Wise!"
Sale: "Verily those who disbelieve our signs, we will surely cast to be broiled in [hell] fire; so often as their skins shall be well burned, we will give them other skins in exchange, that they may taste the [sharper] torment; for God is mighty and wise."
3. Fitna: "Therefore, when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when you have caused a bloodbath among them, bind a bond firmly on them." (47:4)
Yusuf Ali: "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them)."
Nooruddin: "So (believers! Now that you know the will of your Lord), when you meet in (regular) battle those who disbelieve strike off their heads. After you have bound them fast in fetters (as prisoners of war)..."
Dawood: "When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."
Fakhry: "So, when you meet the unbelievers, strike their necks till you have bloodied them, then fasten the shackles."
Daryabadi: "Now when you meet those who disbelieve, smite their necks until when you have slain them greatly, then make fast the bonds."
Pickthall: "Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds."
Hilali-Khan: "So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives)."
Shakir: "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates."
Asad: "Now when you meet [in war] those who are bent on denying the truth, smite their necks until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds"
Sher Ali: "And when you meet in regular battle those who disbelieve, smite their necks; and, when you have overcome them, by causing great slaughter among them, bind fast the fetters."
Muhammad Ali: "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, smite the necks; then, when you have overcome them, make (them) prisoners."
Arberry: "When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds."
Palmer: "And when ye meet those who misbelieve - then striking off heads until ye have massacred them, and bind fast the bonds!"
Rodwell: "When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a great slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters."
Sale: "When ye encounter the unbelievers, strike off [their] heads, until ye have made a great slaughter among them; and bind [them] in bonds."
4. Fitna: "They but wish that ye should reject faith as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they, so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah. But if they turn renegades, seize them and kill them wherever ye find them, and take no friends or helpers from their ranks." (4:89)
Yusuf Ali: "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of God (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."
Nooruddin: "They would like you to reject the faith as they have done themselves, that you may be all alike; therefore, make no friends with them until they emigrate in the cause of Allah. But if they turn back (to hostility), then capture them and kill them wherever you find them, and do take anyone of them as a friend or as a helper."
Dawood: "They would have you disbelieve as they themselves have disbelieved, so that you may be all alike. Do not befriend them until they have fled their homes in the cause of God. If they desert you, seize them and put them to death wherever you find them. Look for neither friends nor helpers among them..."
Fakhry: "They wish that you disbelieve, as they have disbelieved, so that you will be all alike. Do not, then, take any companions from them, until they emigrate in the Way of Allah. Then should they turn back, seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and do not take from them any companion or supporter."
Daryabadi: "They yearn that you disbelieved even as they have disbelieved, so that you may be all alike. So do not take friends from among them unless they migrate for the sake of Allah; and if they turn away then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and do not take from among them a friend or a helper."
Pickthall: "They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them."
Hilali-Khan: "They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them."
Shakir: "They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
Asad: "They would love to see you deny the truth even as they have denied it, so that you should be like them. Do not, therefore, take them for your allies until they forsake the domain of evil for the sake of God; and if they revert to [open] enmity, seize them and slay them wherever you may find them. And do not take any of them for your ally or giver of succour."
Sher Ali: "They wish that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you may become alike. Take not, therefore, friends from among them, until they emigrate in the way of ALLAH. And if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and take no friend nor helper from among them."
Muhammad Ali: "They long that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved so that you might be on the same level; so take not from among them friends until they flee (from their homes) in Allah's way. Then if they turn back (to hostility), seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take no friend or helper from among them."
Khalifa: "They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies."
Arberry: "They wish that you should disbelieve as they disbelieve, and then you would be equal; therefore take not to yourselves friends of them, until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them; take not to yourselves any one of them as friend or helper."
Palmer: "They would fain that ye misbelieve as they misbelieve, that ye might be alike; take ye not patrons from among them until they too flee in God's way; but if they turn their backs, then seize them and kill them wheresoever ye find them, and take from them neither patron nor help."
Rodwell: "They desire that ye should be infidels as they are infidels, and that ye should be alike. Take therefore none of them for friends, till they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they turn back, then seize them, and slay them wherever ye find them; but take none of them as friends or helpers."
Sale: "They desire that ye should become infidels, as they are infidels, and that ye should be equally [wicked with themselves]. Therefore take not friends from among them, until they fly their country for the religion of God; and if they turn back [from the faith], take them, and kill them where-ever ye find them; and take no friend from among them, nor any helper."
5. Fitna: "Fight them until there is no dissension and the religion is entirely Allah's." (8:39)
Yusuf Ali: "And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere."
Nooruddin: "And (O Muslims!) fight them until there is no more persecution (in the name of religion) and adopting a (certain) religion is wholly for the sake of Allah."
Dawood: "Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme."
Fakhry: "And fight them, so that sedition might end and the only religion will be that of Allah."
Daryabadi: "Fight them until there is no persecution and religion be wholly Allah's."
Pickthall: " And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah."
Hilali-Khan: "And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]."
Shakir: "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah."
Asad: "And fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone."
Sher Ali: "And fight them until there is no persecution and religion is wholly to ALLAH."
Muhammad Ali: "And fight them until there is no more persecution, and all religions are for Allah."
Khalifa: "You shall fight them to ward off oppression, and to practice your religion devoted to GOD alone."
Arberry: "Fight them, till there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely."
Palmer: "Fight them then that there should be no sedition, and that the religion may be wholly God's."
Rodwell: "Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's."
Sale: "Therefore fight against them until there be no opposition [in favour of idolatry], and the religion be wholly God's."
Whew. All right. Has Wilders in Fitna "incorrectly translated" any of the Qur'an verses he quoted? No, unless Ali Eteraz would have us believe that all sixteen of these Qur'anic translators -- orthodox Muslim, unorthodox Muslim, non-Muslim -- have gotten the verses wrong also. Maybe only Eteraz possesses the coveted Secret Qur'anic Decoder Ring. But until he deigns to share his Precious with us, pardon me if I find in this yet another example of the dishonesty he has manifested all too many times in the past.
And it isn't just Eteraz, of course. I wish it were just one guy. But constantly, day after day, month after month, year after year, we have seen Muslim spokesmen denying that the Qur'an contains any violent verses, and charging that those who claim otherwise are "Islamophobic" -- while the jihadists continue to use those verses to make inroads within the larger Muslim community. A sincere reformer will, as a basic and obvious first step, acknowledge that there are elements of Islam that need reforming, not charge with "hate" those who point out those elements. But as we have seen, such sincere reformers are exceedingly thin on the ground.
Posted by Robert at April 19, 2008 11:19 AM
Print this entry
| Email this entry
| Digg this
| del.icio.us
Like everything else in Islam, simple words like "good," "bad," "evil," "right," "wrong," "peace," "war" and "violence" do NOT mean to them what they mean to us.
If "killing for Allah" is a good thing (to a Muslim) why does anyone blanch when they say the Koran does not contain any violent verses? They know what you mean, but violence to them means something else entirely and hence they can say honestly that "the Koran contains no violent verses."
If a Muslim can sustain this logic:
1) Allah created the entire Universe
2) Allah loves his creation
3) Allah hates pigs, dogs and Unbelievers
without feeling any twinge of contradiction or cognitive dissonance, how can we think they can be reasonable or that we can reason with them?
Ethelred
Posted by: Ethelred![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at April 19, 2008 12:04 PM
So claims Ali Eteraz, who writes here that "Wilders' obfuscations are pernicious. He conceals his xenophobic nativism by waving (incorrectly translated and randomly picked) verses of the Quran."
"randomly picked"? Certainly NOT. They were chosen because they present the violence and barbarity inherent in Islam. If they had really been chosen AT RANDOM, they might have included one or two of the more peaceful and liberal verses (of course most of those have been "abrogated"). What Eteraz is really saying is that it's hard to randomly pick 5 verses of the Koran without coming up with violent verses 5 out of 5; i.e. that the Koran is mostly violence. It's nice to hear him admit it.
at April 19, 2008 12:04 PM
What Eteraz is really saying is that it's hard to randomly pick 5 verses of the Koran without coming up with violent verses 5 out of 5; i.e. that the Koran is mostly violence. It's nice to hear him admit it.
Ebonystone, I noticed that too. Muslim apologists couldn't think themselves out of a wet paper bag made out of recycled Koran pages.
It's a slog
There's an understatement.
Posted by: venividivici at April 19, 2008 12:20 PM
Well, I think Robert made the point. He always does.
at April 19, 2008 1:39 PM
Yes, of course.
And Mr. Fat Man in the film was also quoted and translated by MEMRI inaccurately when he brandished his sword promising to cut off the heads of Jews. He cited, no doubt inaccurately, Islamic scripture even as he was having a stroke on camera.
As Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed said, FITNA could have been a film produced by mujahideen. He thought he was being cute, but by the time he said that, the same observation had been noted many times by reviewers of the film.
For the life of me, I don't know where Robert gets the energy--thankfully not a smidgen of which I myself will need to muster the next time someone throws the "inaccurate translation" charge in my face.
I'll just retrieve this masterful and illuminating retort to that claim from my bookmarks.
No matter how you peel a lemon, you can't make it taste like a strawberry.
Regards,
HAID
Posted by: Haid Dasalami at April 19, 2008 1:46 PM
To put it very simple Wilders has been rather smart, he has like myself and another blogger who has been banned from this site used the koranic clippings, and audios of the verses from this site
http://quran.al-islam.com/Targama/DispTargam.asp?nType=1&nSeg=0&l=eng&nSora=1&nAya=1&t=eng
What Wilders has done is not so new, he has basicaly made a politically correct video version of what we have been doing for several years now.
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/search/label/Koran
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/03/sick-al-anfal-839-islams-perpetual-war_12.html
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2007/02/sick-nisaa-4-119.html
We chose to use these translations so that we could not be accused incorrectly verses of the Quran, if the verses are incorrect then it is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia Ministry of Islamic Affairs that stands for the bad translation, not us or Gert Wilders.
at April 19, 2008 3:25 PM
Those who been around here for a while know Ali Eteraz as a disingenuous, pathological liar and as we can see above, he just does his Islamic duty to 'defend' Islam against infidel scrutiny.
Are there no Muslims out there, anyone, who are ready & willing to get serious and discuss the substance of the Islamic ideology without dancing around the issues like whirling dervishes?
at April 19, 2008 3:56 PM
Another gem from Eteraz:
'While I do not believe that we ought to be influenced by what ayatollahs and extremists on the other side of the globe think"
What the Ayotollahs on the other side of the globe are doing influences a lot of thing that happen in the world today. Their thinking, just like Eteraz, is based on the Koran and the profit Muhammad.
But there's a method in his obfuscation efforts: Eteraz is by far not the only one who makes such spurious non-arguments, it is standard fare among Islamic apologists. They all seem to speak with one voice, which makes me wonder:
Are they all clones of each other, are the all manufactured in the same agit-prop factory of Al Azahr or Islamintern, or does Islam itself produce this tunnel vision?
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 19, 2008 4:23 PM
Two versions of Schism have appeared, which tries to do the same as Fitna with the Bible. I have addressed the verses they quote here and here, and of course used that opportunity to repost Fitna.
Posted by: Don Singleton at April 19, 2008 4:34 PM
I wouldn't care what the Koran had in it were it not for the Muslims who themselves quote it to justify their violence.
Posted by: PMK at April 19, 2008 6:05 PM
Robert, thank you for all your hard work.
Prediction: Eteraz will respond (if he does) with a pompous non sequitur and say "So there!"
Posted by: USBeast at April 19, 2008 6:28 PM
The maniacs who sliced off Nick Berg's head on video were misquoted as screaming "Allahu Akbar!" over and over, too.
They were really saying:
"Abu, where did were park the car?"
Or, as one varient al-Jazeera transcript has it:
"Ali, I want a Clark bar."
While Coptic Egyptian scholars insist they were yelling:
"All Islam is fubar."
Eteraz is a deceitful pimp for the rank terror emanating from the Koran.
His b.s. is shameless, shallow and specious.
Posted by: profitsbeard at April 19, 2008 9:06 PM
if Islam is a peaceful religion, why there is no death warrant or fatwa issued to kill Osama Bin Laden, because he killed so many innocent lives and justified the act in the name of Allah. Is this an act of peace?
can he answer this ?
at April 20, 2008 1:47 AM
Ethelred -
the special Muslim meaning of 'violence' is just like the special Muslim meanings of 'innocent' [= Muslim] and 'guilty' [= kafir, non-Muslim].
So the Muslim smiles and says, 'we disapprove of killing innocent people!' and the non-Muslim hearers don't realize that all he's REALLY saying is, 'we disapprove of killing Muslims' (well...unless they're 'bad' Muslims, but that's another story).
Kafirs, being ipso facto neither innocent nor even, properly speaking, 'people', can be killed en masse with perfect equanimity by any right-minded pious Muslim, the minute they are perceived as in ANY way causing difficulty for, or offending, Islam/ Muslims (and there are so many, many ways in which one may offend the exquisitely delicate sensibilities of pious Muslims).
'Violence' is - non-Muslims attacking Muslims, or resisting or rejecting Islam.
Anything else is NOT violence: it's justice, or peace, or something, because it's in accord with the Way the World Ought To Be.
All you have to do is think about the terms Muslims use for war. I seem to recall, some time ago, on this very website, reading about some of the Arabic terms for war: and that the term which carries 'negative' connotations - harb - that is, the term that probably has some of the negative overtones of the English word 'war', is NOT used of war made by Muslims against non-Muslims. THAT sort of 'war' can be referred to by a thoroughly Orwellian euphemism that literally means something like 'opening'. Because, from their POV, it's GOOD: attacking the non-Muslims, breaching their defences, destroying their opposition, is 'opening' up the world for allah...
It's like the meaning of 'liberate' in army or thieves' slang - one 'liberates' the farmer's chicken, i.e. one steals it.
Whoever he, or it, or they were, that created the Quran, the Sira, and the Hadith in order to sacralise and rationalise ruthless Arab/Muslim oppression and degradation of the Other, all Others, they were People of the Lie to the nth degree.
at April 20, 2008 3:39 AM
Robert wrote:
“But van der Galien, in his review of Fitna to which Eteraz links, doesn't actually say that the Qur'an verses quoted in Fitna are incorrectly translated. Rather, he spends a great deal time explaining (incorrectly, but that's another story) the context of Qur'an 8:60, by referring to the surrounding verses.”
I would look forward to seeing Robert straighten out van der Galien (VDG) regarding the interpretation of the verses surrounding 8:60. VDG, in quoting some of those surrounding verses, doesn’t seem to be troubled by 8:57, and he seems to take the term “peace” in 8:61 at face value, instead of examining what it might mean in Islamic terms.* VDG also seems to imply that reading a verse in context is simply a matter of taking a look at the surrounding text, whereas Muslim scholars rely heavily on the Hadith and Sira to supply the situational or historical context of the verses. I suspect that VDG is also oblivious to the fact that the title of the entire Sura 8 is translated as “War Booty” or “The Spoils of War.” VDG also neglects to tackle the other verses cited in Wilders’ movie.
*In mainstream Islamic terms, “peace” occurs when non-Muslims submit to Islamic law, either by becoming Muslims or dhimmis, willingly or unwillingly.
Here are some brief interpretations of 8:61:
al-Jalalayn, 8:61:
“And if they incline to peace (read silm or salm, meaning, ‘settlement’), then incline to it, and conclude a pact with them: Ibn ‘Abbās said, ‘This has been abrogated by the “sword verse” [Q. 9:5]’; Mujāhid said, ‘This [stipulation] applies exclusively in the context of the People of the Scripture, for it was revealed regarding the Banū Qurayza; and rely on God, put your trust in Him; truly He is the Hearer, of words, the Knower, of actions.”
Ishaq, p. 326. “Then He [Allah, in Qur'an 8:61] said: ‘And if they incline to peace incline thou to it,’ i.e., if they ask you for peace on the basis of Islam then make peace on that basis, ‘and rely on God,’ verily God will suffice thee, ‘He is the Hearer, the Knower’.” [Source: The Life of Muhammad, by Ibn Ishaq, Guillaume's translation]
VDG might also want to look at these verses before signing the Islamic peace contract:
43:88 (Shakir). "Consider his cry: O my Lord! surely they are a people who do not believe. 43:89. So turn away from them and say, Peace, for they shall soon come to know.”
47:35. “And be not slack so as to cry for peace and you have the upper hand, and Allah is with you, and He will not bring your deeds to naught.”
.
at April 20, 2008 5:16 AM
Eteratz link to Irshad Manji is telling:
Manji is another intellectual flyweight, nothing to say, but as always, she says it loud, and with the air of the Islamo-supremacist shill, while her fanclub cheers.
Pathetic.
But since Manji is the Islamo-moderate-media darling par excellence, perhaps you should acknowledge her with a thorough rebuttal, Robert.
It won't take much...
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 20, 2008 6:01 AM
Eteratz link to Irshad Manji is telling:
Manji is another intellectual flyweight, nothing to say, but as always, she says it loud, and with the air of the Islamo-supremacist shill, while her fanclub cheers.
Pathetic.
But since Manji is the Islamo-moderate-media darling par excellence, perhaps you should acknowledge her with a thorough rebuttal, Robert.
It won't take much...
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 20, 2008 6:44 AM
Is it not amazing how many have managed to mis translate the Koran? 1400 Years and we still can't get it right. What is an Infidel to do?
Posted by: flowerknife_us at April 20, 2008 7:50 AM
"Secret Qur'anic Decoder Ring." ha ha ha that was very good sarcasm Robert
Posted by: Bernardo at April 20, 2008 3:35 PM
The review of fitna by Michael van der Galien is just reflecting the first stage of studying Islam that his is still in. He ignores the fact that the sword waving imam shouting jihad fi sabil allah has an audience of probably thousands as far as can be judged from the video shown by Wilders and we didn't see people rushing out of the mosque in disgust of this misunderstander of Islam who is on the same side as OBL and Geert Wilders.
Posted by: Jan at April 20, 2008 4:22 PM
could it be that Muslims are terrified that with the higher educational standards in the West more and more Westerners may start to read the Koran and realize that Islam must be rejected and fought against and they know that with the industrial base the West has it ever wakes up Moslems are going to be in trouble personally I think if we were to boycott all Muslim countries and refuse to buy the oil that is their only real export they would be brought low in a very short time
Posted by: crusader at April 21, 2008 4:45 AM
firstable the hole western knowledge is based on muslim filosophers like ibn sienna, but you call him avveroes. so even at this moment when we as muslim are weake but still very well educated. but i will talk about the soera 8:60. we will first go aview soera's back and that is what Mrs wilders was forgotten to do:we will start from 8:55 "Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.
[8:56]
Those of them with whom thou madest a treaty, and then at every opportunity they break their treaty, and they keep not duty (to Allah).
[8:57]
If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.
[8:58]
And if thou fearest treachery from any folk, then throw back to them (their treaty) fairly. Lo! Allah loveth not the treacherous.
[8:59]
And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
[8:60]
Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
its thereby not terror, we most know that an english word has 12 ways to translate, but an arbic word has 40 was from basic to translate, and i read the koran in arabic and there many wrong translations, to learn koran and to translate it you have to know 3 things. 1: is thr koran translate him self. 2: the hadeet of mohammed and his biografie. 3: the arabic language. and thr 3th rule is the very important one. than we go ferther from soera's 61 to 65.
[8:61]
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
[8:62]
And if they would deceive thee, then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers,
[8:63]
And (as for the believers) hath attuned their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth thou couldst not have attuned their hearts, but Allah hath attuned them. Lo! He is Mighty, Wise.
[8:64]
O Prophet! Allah is Sufficient for thee and those who follow thee of the believers.
[8:65]
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.
our believe is human in every way you look for, its not only a believe it is also a way of life. in this versions its show us how to deal with our enemy so that means that our way of living is publicly, you just have to read the koran and you will know what you expect from us. and we are no ghandi's. we eat, thrink, married, have sex, get childeren, and yes we will fight if somebody comes between us and our god or to bring his message. the same thing like the USA doing now bringing democratie with all the weapons they have. they belive in this life and we in the life here after, but with keeping this life peacefull. and at the end we will...............................................................................................................................
at April 21, 2008 7:12 AM
firstable the hole western knowledge is based on muslim filosophers like ibn sienna, but you call him avveroes. so even at this moment when we as muslim are weake but still very well educated. but i will talk about the soera 8:60. we will first go aview soera's back and that is what Mrs wilders was forgotten to do:we will start from 8:55 "Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.
[8:56]
Those of them with whom thou madest a treaty, and then at every opportunity they break their treaty, and they keep not duty (to Allah).
[8:57]
If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.
[8:58]
And if thou fearest treachery from any folk, then throw back to them (their treaty) fairly. Lo! Allah loveth not the treacherous.
[8:59]
And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.
[8:60]
Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
its thereby not terror, we most know that an english word has 12 ways to translate, but an arbic word has 40 ways from basic to translate, and i read the koran in arabic and there many wrong translations in english especialy those whom are translated by jews like they did in indonesia or in egypte or europe or by some christian priest, to learn koran and to translate it you have to know 3 things. 1: is thr koran translate him self. 2: the hadeet of mohammed and his biografie. 3: the arabic language. and thr 3th rule is the very important one. than we go ferther from soera's 61 to 65.
[8:61]
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
[8:62]
And if they would deceive thee, then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers,
[8:63]
And (as for the believers) hath attuned their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth thou couldst not have attuned their hearts, but Allah hath attuned them. Lo! He is Mighty, Wise.
[8:64]
O Prophet! Allah is Sufficient for thee and those who follow thee of the believers.
[8:65]
O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.
our believe is human in every way you look for, its not only a believe it is also a way of life. in this versions its show us how to deal with our enemy so that means that our way of living is publicly, you just have to read the koran and you will know what you expect from us. and we are no ghandi's. we eat, thrink, married, have sex, get childeren, and yes we will fight if somebody comes between us and our god or to bring his message. the same thing like the USA doing now bringing democratie with all the weapons they have. they belive in this life and we in the life here after, but with keeping this life peacefull. and at the end we will...............................................................................................................................
at April 21, 2008 7:18 AM
Re Ali Eteraz and Irshad Manji, both of them, in regards to non-Muslims, believe, at minimum, this:
54:46. "Nay, but the Hour (of doom) is their appointed tryst, and the Hour will be more wretched and more bitter (than their earthly failure).
54:47. Lo! the guilty are in error and madness.
54:48. On the day when they are dragged into the Fire upon their faces (it is said unto them): Feel the touch of hell.”
The other thing to keep in mind when Manji admonishes non-believers to embrace "humility":
http://bewley.virtualave.net/bukhari23.html#jihad
Sahih Bukhari, LXXXVII: What is said about spears
“It is mentioned from Ibn 'Umar from the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, "My provision has been placed under the shadow of my spear, and abasement and humility have been placed on the one who disobeys my command."
Also see Quran 9:29-30 and many other Quranic verses that talk about how non-believers will be humiliated or humbled by Muslims and Allah.
Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at April 22, 2008 4:03 AM
Comments are turned off and archived for this entry.
(Note: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.)