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The Ahmadis are also considered heretical because they do not embrace the idea of violent jihad. Anyway, here is yet another opportunity for all the self-professed Islamic pluralists in the West to denounce this atrocity, to reject the traditional Islamic death penalty for heretics, and to show in deed as well as word that they reject not only violent coercion in religious matters, but also any idea of Islamic supremacism and the subjugation of nonbelievers.
But don't hold your breath. And the silence of Hooper, al-Marayati, and all the rest will once again be indicative, but few in government, law enforcement or media will pick up on what exactly it indicates.
"Indonesians torch Muslim sect's mosque," by Niniek Karmini for Associated Press (thanks to all who sent this in):
Hundreds of protesters chanting "Kill, kill" set fire Monday to an Indonesian mosque belonging to a Muslim sect they claim is heretical, police said.A policeman was wounded in the head when the crowd stoned the mosque in West Java province before setting it ablaze, said police spokesman Col. Dade Ahmad. Several suspects were taken in for questioning.
The attack was the latest targeting the Ahmadiyah sect in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim nation.
Most mainstream Muslims consider Ahmadiyah heretical because it does not consider Muhammad to be the final prophet. The sect was founded at the end of the 19th century in Pakistan.
Last week, a team of prosecutors, religious scholars and government officials said the sect "had deviated from Islamic principles" and recommended it be outlawed. There have been several acts of vandalism targeting Ahmadiyah since then.
About 300 people torched the mosque and destroyed an Islamic school building inside the Ahmadiyah compound in Sukabumi town just after midnight. Many sect members have since fled the area, seeking refuge with friends and relatives.
"We heard the attackers chanting 'Burn, burn' and 'Kill, kill,'" said Zaki Firdaus, one of the sect's members. "It was horrifying."..
Posted by Robert at April 28, 2008 8:27 AM
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In Pakistan the Ahmadis are forced on all official documents to identify themselves as non-Muslims.
In sub-Saharan Africa, Ahmadiyya members have been successful proselytizers. Their slightly more relaxed brand, or version, of Islam possibly holds greater initial appeal for some non-Muslims. However, once those conversions have been made, the Saudis come in, with their money, for grander mosques, and the ability to pay imams large sums, and begin to take over the territory that the Ahmadis had, in a sense, first explored and "cleared" for Islam.
Posted by: Hugh![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at April 28, 2008 8:40 AM
Some viruses mimick harmlessness to penetrate the cell, then open their true codes.
Peaceful advance guard; violent orthodoxy.
The peaceful will always succumb to the militant.
Posted by: profitsbeard at April 28, 2008 9:09 AM
Our former poster "Naseem" should watch this development, Islam is never peace.
Posted by: interestinconundrum at April 28, 2008 9:29 AM
"We heard the attackers chanting 'Burn, burn' and 'Kill, kill,'" said Zaki Firdaus, one of the sect's members. "It was horrifying."..
Followup:
Horrifying, eh? So what was your reaction to 9/11 or the many other attacks on non-Muslims in the last thirty years? How about Bali?
Do you believe non-Muslims must submit to sharia law?
This was indeed an atrocity but we shouldn't automatically jump to the conclusion that this sect is a friend of the West and its members hostile to other sects of Islam. It's what the John Espositos will point to as proof that not all Muslims are bent on killing others but my enemy's enemy isn't always my friend. Far from being an example of how Islam can be reformed, this sect might just as easily turn out to be Islam's Trojan Horse.
They get you to let your guard down and then Islamists move in for the kill. Almost like Mohammed preaching peace in Mecca and then showing his true colors once he gained power. The man of peace became a warlord.
at April 28, 2008 9:30 AM
The attack was the latest targeting the Ahmadiyah sect in Indonesia, formally the world's third most populous communist nation, However, the amerikans came in, thus enabling the moslems make the biggest land grab in modern history, and in Idonesians short history a lot of blood has being drawn.
HOW THE EAST WAS LOST
http://illustratedpig.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-east-was-lost.html
at April 28, 2008 9:33 AM
"We heard the attackers chanting 'Burn, burn' and 'Kill, kill,'" said Zaki Firdaus, one of the sect's members. "It was horrifying."..
So Zaki Firdaus (a sect muslim) now understands the piece and horror of islam but, I wonder what he would of said if this was a church being burnt, probably allah akbar and pass me the torch too.
at April 28, 2008 10:02 AM
PMK said:
This was indeed an atrocity but we shouldn't automatically jump to the conclusion that this sect is a friend of the West and its members hostile to other sects of Islam.
This is true. However, I don't approve of people killing other people simply because the victim had a distaste for violence.
Posted by: Lori B. at April 28, 2008 10:10 AM
PMK said:
This was indeed an atrocity but we shouldn't automatically jump to the conclusion that this sect is a friend of the West and its members hostile to other sects of Islam.
This is true. However, I don't approve of people killing other people simply because the victim had a distaste for violence.
Posted by: Lori B. at April 28, 2008 10:12 AM
First they came for the Ahmadiyah's and then they came for the Hindus, then they came for the Christians ...
Islam is an embarrassment to human dignity.
Posted by: James Martel at April 28, 2008 10:23 AM
Note to the Ahmadiyah's or anyone else. Get video, get video, get video or the Muslims will deny that anything really happened. They will say it was just some hooligans who were not "real Muslims".
When people see undeniablely Muslim people chanting "Kill Kill", they will understand that Islam does not produce peace.
Posted by: James Martel at April 28, 2008 10:26 AM
Islam is its own worst enemy.
Posted by: Charles Martel at April 28, 2008 10:31 AM
As soon as Naseem has completed her/his fire fighting duties he/she will return to defend the peaceful religion of islam......sigh..
Posted by: pismopal at April 28, 2008 10:39 AM
A little OT here...BUT
Does anyone know the outcome of some of the interesting things that have been going on since Friday?
Like pipe bomb going off at Fed Ex in San Diego? or
Pipe bomb going off in Hanford, CA?
or
Semi truck plowing into Chicago train station killing 2/injuring dozen?
National Terror alert is oozing.
http://www.nationalterroralert.com/
Posted by: DeeMack at April 28, 2008 10:47 AM
correction//
that pipe bomb in Hanford, CA went off in a high school.
Posted by: DeeMack at April 28, 2008 10:49 AM
This is what happens when people try to 'reform' Islam from within.
Islam cannot be reformed.
Posted by: CrazyFool at April 28, 2008 11:17 AM
That is a VERY misleading headline.
It reads like Indonesians who aren't muslims attacked muslims, when in fact it should read
Muslims attack Ahmadi sect.
Since both are Indonesians putting the headline that way is false journalism.
Posted by: Borg at April 28, 2008 11:27 AM
Every time I comment i get this message:
Jihad Watch
Thank You for Commenting
Your comment has been received. To protect against malicious comments, I have enabled a feature that allows your comments to be held for approval the first time you post a comment. I'll approve your comment when convenient; there is no need to re-post your comment.
Why?
at April 28, 2008 11:31 AM
I'm guessing Nazeems' concept of "sharia lite" wouldn't go over too well with these Indonesian muslims. heh heh
Posted by: j_not_a at April 28, 2008 11:39 AM
I had occasion to visit an Ahmadi mosques recently with another infidel. The place has tight security, and my mate wondered if it was in case some reactionaries might vandalize or attack it. I said, "Yep, but it's not us infidels they are worried about. If this place is attacked, it will be by jihadists."
Posted by: Jan Sobieski at April 28, 2008 12:05 PM
So, it just proves our point about the Islamofacists....they will kill ANYBODY that doesn't agree with their take on religion.
Posted by: gymgal at April 28, 2008 12:23 PM
Last fall and winter the Ahmadiyya community in the United States attempted to establish a worship and convention center for 10,000 people in a rural town---Walkersville, MD.
The residents of the town formed an organization, Citizens for Walkersville, and through a lengthy zoning process and grassroots campaign were able to bar the facility from their town. The Ahmadiyya were well-financed and tenacious throughout.
In the end the zoning decision rested on the issue of crowding, open space, roads, water, sewer etc.
I attended several of the meetings and was impressed with the citizens knowledge of Islam and Shariah law. They did their homework.
Perhaps the best question I heard asked was this one, it went something like this: "if your sect is persecuted by other more violent branches of Islam, could we expect someday that violence will follow you to our town?"
http://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/walkersville-md-says-no-to-ahmadiyya-muslim-convention-center/
at April 28, 2008 12:27 PM
Muslims who do not buy into violent Jihad are silenced by Jihadists who do.
Jihad? Shhhhhhhhh! Islam is a Religon of Peace.
... just like Nazism is a philosophy of racial integration.
Get real.
at April 28, 2008 12:32 PM
One other note about how some countries mark Ahmadi passports as "non-Muslim". What this means in effect is that they cannot go on the Hajira or pilgrimage to Mecca, the Saudis do not allow non-muslims anywhere near the kabah. The pilgrimage is still part of the Ahmadi sect beliefs.
Posted by: Thanos at April 28, 2008 1:46 PM
Well, isn't indonesia also considered to be the most -tolerant- muslim nation. I guess, nothing in this news flash contradicts that statement.
Posted by: Marvin at April 28, 2008 1:58 PM
Muslims respond to Muslims who reject violent Jihad With violent jihad.
Would be laughable if it weren't Islam.
Posted by: Bosch Fawstin at April 28, 2008 2:26 PM
It must be the "Love for All, Hatred for None" slogan that the Ahmadiyah's peddle.
Since there is no LOVE in the Koran that must be what upsets the true believers, what'd you say, Khokar?
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 28, 2008 2:31 PM
Muslims who do not buy into violent Jihad are silenced by Jihadists who do.
Do those Muslim sects who don't buy into violent jihad also not believe in universal submission to sharia law? Is there any evidence to suggest that they are not simply practicing a covert form of jihad rather than the in your face violence practiced by Islamists? In this case they are the victims but do they seek to become the victimizers? What is the sect's record with non-Muslims when the sect is in a position of power?
Posted by: PMK at April 28, 2008 2:35 PM
Muslim mob chanting "Kill, kill" torches mosque of heretical Islamic sect
Every Islamic sect is a heretical sect depending on who is speaking...
Posted by: duh_swami at April 28, 2008 2:55 PM
The Ahmadiyya's "prophet" seems oddly similar to wacko scam artist Benjamin Creme's Maitreya.
More on the Ahmadiyya Movement
Posted by: Connie at April 28, 2008 3:03 PM
xxx
Posted by: HotSpur at April 28, 2008 3:27 PM
In Padang, Islamic law is now imposed on all
by Mathias Hariyadi
The controversial local laws inspired by sharia are now being applied to non-Muslim citizens. Female students who do not wear the headscarf are suspended, and few have the courage to rebel, because of fear of reprisals from fundamentalists.
http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=12098&size=A
Posted by: InfidelK9 at April 28, 2008 3:54 PM
PMK,
Until proven otherwise my default position has to be that the affair is more analogous to the struggle within the Nazi movement, between the SS and SA, than a struggle between peaceful and violent sects of Islam.
But, I'm willing to be proved wrong. I guess if the Ahmadis are wiped out by the Jihadis, then maybe they really did believe in a Religion of Peace.
at April 28, 2008 5:39 PM
RalphInfidel,
I think you're right. Every story that talks about persecuted sects of Islam needs to tell us exactly which parts of Islam this group opposes and how much sharia and the example of their prophet has been discarded. Given the Sunni/Shia divide and Western experiences with both, it's pretty much six of one and a half dozen of the other. They may fight amongst themselves about who is a purer Muslim but they all agree on one thing: the rest of us are infidels.
at April 28, 2008 6:31 PM
Sheik,
Khokar may have resurrected as "Adabarez".
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020745.php#c534821
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 28, 2008 8:22 PM
funny how the so called moderate muslims love to preach the peaceful virtues of the ahmadya sect to the infidals, but absolutly detest the sect itself? detest it so much that they are labeled as non muslims in the muslim world. this means that they are treated a second rate citizens and subject to all then hatred of other non muslims.
but the worst part is that the ahamdyas here in the west are also preaching that islam is peaceful non violent, tolerant etc. they are still trying to prove themselves to be good muslims and the flag bearer for islam.
at April 28, 2008 9:54 PM
"But again…Muhammad being aggressive;… in a battle? What could have he done? Probably present a bouquet of flowers to his enemies?"
Adabarez:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020745.php#c534521
"BTW; what is the issue and why you are so perturbed; After all you don’t present flowers to your foes?"
Khokar
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020419.php#c524658
Note the rhetorical interrogatories and the use of the "flowers" motif.
------------------------------
"They say; While Mrs Marple ate all the apple pies; Mr Ford ends up paying for it."
Khokar:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/020654.php#c531739
"They say*; While Mrs Marple ate up all the apple pies; poor Mr Ford ends up paying for it."
Note that although the wording is not exact(ate, ate up; Mr Ford, poor Mr Ford), that the absence of punctuation of Mrs/Mrs and the use of the semicolon instead of the comma is the same.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 28, 2008 11:05 PM
They're going after Ahmadiyah because they're few in number and easy to bully. The NU, lead by former Indonesian president Gus Dur is also heretical, combining Islam with spiritualism and animism. The difference is, NU has over 40 million adherents and many more undeclared supporters. These hardliners like FPI, Hizbut Tahrir, MMI (Ba'asyir's boys)and other terrorist militias that are attacking Ahmadiyah won't attack NU. NU's militia, Ansor, would crush them.
Muslim sect members vastly out number true Islamists (Muhammadiyah)and Wahhabists here in Indonesia. The Wahhabists are just looking for easy victims and usually choose Ahmadiyah or Christians in West Java.
Posted by: bigwhiteinfidel at April 29, 2008 12:11 AM
After re-reading the posts again, I should add this: Ahmadiyah is not considered heretical because they don't embrace the idea of violent jihad as Robert said. They're are considered heretical because they believe Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was the last prophet and not Muhammad. That is what is causing all the hub bub here. They believe in all the rest of Islamic nonense but their sect was started by Imam Ahmad who believed he was a prophet even though Muhammad declared himself the last prophet. This why the hardliners here want to kill them. The hardliners gave Ahmadiyah a chance to denounce Imam Ahmad as the last prophet and return to regular teaching that Muhammad was the last prophet. They haven't, so now hardliners want to burn down all Ahmadiyah mosques and kill all the members.
Posted by: bigwhiteinfidel at April 29, 2008 12:29 AM
The hardliners gave Ahmadiyah a chance to denounce Imam Ahmad as the last prophet and return to regular teaching that Muhammad was the last prophet.
bigwhiteinfidel,
But what was Imam Ahmad's version of Islam like? How much of the sharia did he support? What was his take on how Muslims should treat non-Muslims? Did he believe in a state run by Islamic law with non-believers having a lesser status than Muslims?
Did he believe in the greater jihad (war) or only the inner jihad (internal struggle, which is pretty much what all other religions are about)?
People talk about these sects and how they're not Islamists but how much of that is true? How much of the Koran, the same book quoted by the Islamists, do the Ahmadiyah accept?
at April 29, 2008 10:34 AM
Hello,
This is the URL of the official web site of the Ahmadi sect.
This will give you more information about the difference between them and other Muslims. They are the most non violent and peaceful sect in Muslims
Nasir
at April 29, 2008 11:46 AM
RalphInfidel
I have checked them out and they do write against violent jihad.http://www.alislam.org/terrorism.html
They do have some unorthodox Muslim beliefs also that seem to make them the target of those that believe in violent jihad. they are more like a cross between Islam and Hindu.
Posted by: NewJersey at April 29, 2008 4:37 PM
Nasir,
I found the site earlier today. They talk the talk but it's not clear they walk the walk. They continue to speak of Islam's right to wage "defensive war" without saying what that means or what would bring it about.
They're big on "no compulsion in religion" but they believe Islam is the religion for the world.
at April 29, 2008 7:04 PM
"They are the most non violent and peaceful sect in Muslims"
Nasir,
They also talk of Islam as the religion of people in the right path, that Islam is comprehensive, and there is the very idea of defensive war.
It is a war waged by Muslims in the name of Islam.
The Ahmadiyya may be the "most non-violent", but are they opposed to violence? It's not clear to me that they are. Do they believe in equal treatment of non-Muslims? Saying there is no compulsion in religion doesn't go far enough. They talk the talk but it's still questionable whether they would walk the walk.
at April 29, 2008 7:30 PM
Robert.. with all due respect.. what exactly is new about all of this that we haven't heard before..?
Hey, you know I am just "giving you a hard time" because all you ever do is give us the truth.. errr.. I mean the never-ending bad news..
All of which appears so repetitive to us regulars.. islam ad nauseam.. we LOVE the messenger and we deeply RESPECT you for living your life like a true resistance fighter always on the run from the enemy within our very own lands..
It really shouldn't be that way.. our True Western Heroes shunned and in perpetual danger for their very lives while the enemy is catered to and constantly encouraged by what we should normally think are our own people.
You, Mr. Spencer and Mr. Fitzgerald are a truly unique and dedicated breed.. We all who continue to live out and enjoy our own lives in relative normalcy.. while at the same time alarmed and angry about the gutless and complicit enablers of islam of virtually all of those who govern, educate and inform us..
It is the likes of you who are the "true-born Kings" of all no longer just Britain but of the entire Free World.
It is YOU who never relent in pulling out that Mighty Sword of Knowledge from the anvil of mediocrity and cowardly self-interest.
So in the name of all who frequent these blogs.. I say Thank You, Mr. Spencer and Mr. Fitzgerald.. for you keep on blessing us with the relentlessly depressing news which we all would much rather not have to deal with when instead we could be riding our bike down a sandy sunlit path to the salty beach ahead.. or taking our kids onto the visitors' deck atop the Empire State Building.. yes, that very site that was the staging ground for the cold-blooded assassination of six innocent tourists - totally unaware, defenseless and unarmed as they were..
In the name of all of these people and the known and also the forgotten and unaccounted-for victims of this mental disease called islam I wish to Thank You for constantly bringing us this enragingly repetitive and never-ending bad news.
Reading this blog can be seriously depressing because it is so very hard to understand why any group of human beings would seriously wish to inflict this torture on their Fellow Man.
We have to laud you, you relentless messengers of Truth for your selfless and widely unappreciated work on behalf of all of us.. indeed you are working even on behalf of this very enemy we face.
It is you who remind us to be better than our rawest instinct of self-preservation and survival.
It is you who show us that the followers of this deadly and deluded "prophet" are not only a threat to all Free Mankind but that they themselves are living their lives in perpetual slavery of an irrational and unmitigated hatred which destroys their very souls.
It is your Class and level-headed cool which reminds the hotheads - myself included - among us that there are better people than ourselves putting their very lives on the line because you wish to save us all - including the deluded islamists - from this evil.
No matter what language I am at best a mediocre writer and I freely acknowledge the obvious. I am slightly better in direct debate but I am one of the many who lack the proper words to adequately define and express our initial misgivings about islam and what islam has in store for us all.
Especially as a German who lives in the USA it has been so very reassuring to find this site which finally allowed me to set aside all of my long-conditioned self-doubts regarding whether deep down I might be - gasp - a Nazi or a Racist without really knowing it..
I have had plenty of such recriminations from both closest of family and friends as well more casual discussion partners in my time before 9/11.
Sadly, as time goes by, some seem to forget my very regretful "I-told-you-sos" in the days after that dastardly attack.
I always used to say that I would much rather prefer to be a "racist" in their opinion that to be proven right.
I've even had people say to me - denial seems to be an unmentioned Human Sin - that it is "alarmists" like me who provoke this sort of attack.
All I can say is "Tell it to Winston" and Thank You Hugh and Robert for bringing us the bad news.. I for one love the messengers..
You all and the many other contributors on here are true life-savers.
Thanks and praises to you all.
And always remember.. the messenger is never to blame.
The messenger is to be held in the highest of esteem.
I am so grateful for all this depressing news you guys keep presenting us with..
How much harder this must be for you who have to do this from constantly changing clandestine hiding places.. always on the run.. always on the run within those very self-same Free Lands you so fervently love and are so selflessly dedicated to preserve.
I may not always know the proper tone on your blog.. I may not even have much to contribute.. but I want this to express my deeply-felt gratitude for your sacrifice on our all behalf.
If ever we are facing a Sword stuck irretrievably in a Stonen Anvil of apathy and ignorance - YOU are the selfless men and women who have cast away the doubt and the anxiety.. the ingrained moral relativisms.. the poisonous self-loathing inculcated in us from birth..
If there is one good thing to be said about islam. . my Japanese girlfriend succinctly formulated it as a virus which is up to Mankind to cure.
She calls it the Ultimate Challenge.
We have truly "gone soft" and dangerously bigheaded and arrogantly careless as Western Society goes.
We do indeed have need to become more introspective and reflective and I mean AMONGST OURSELVES ONLY.
The one good thing about islam as it would define it is that it serves to toughen us up and spur our creativity.. that very creativity which I the agnostic see as the most Divine within us all.. that very creativity which we all see most lacking in that Salieri of religions which is called islam.. that perpetually envious and hateful screed.. forever damned - by its very own principles - always on the outside.. looking in on God's lustful Golden Boy Mozart in eternally resentful amazement at the never-ending achievements of the very "infidels" whom their holy book so clearly defines as their natural inferiors.
The story of Mozart and Salieri is an excellent one indeed if one is to illustrate the past and present relationship of islam vis-a-vis the West..
On the one hand we have the carefree innovative joyously experimental Peoples of the West who have long ago been joined by the invaluable and unique contributions of Japan and Germany - two formerly [more than] troublesome yet ultimately rational national entities made conscious by means of war and destruction of their need for restraint and negotiation for the benefit of not merely their own populations.
The Two World Wars fought in the 20th Century should have served to ingrain revulsion at the horrors of Total War and mechanized slaughter within all peoples world-wide.
Now I am sad to witness that there are those - and not nearly a few as we are constantly being led to believe - who look upon these events with sick fascination. They view the possibilities for depraved and inhumane slaughter with cold, gleeful calculation.
These more than unpleasant facts are brought to us on an unfortunately all-too daily basis by our Jihadwatch friends..
As mad as I was at the outset reading once again about the "Thrill Kill Kult" named islam.. it is our intrepid raccounteurs whom I must be grateful to instead of angry at for bringing me the bad news.
How much creative time have I lost due to islam?!
How much time have you lost?
Liberal "think tanks" always like to tally up things like "what if the money spent on jailing criminals were spent on putting them through school instead".
They conveniently leave out the logic that if criminality were the way to a first-grade education then we all would "go for it".
Beats working in my book. Why even bother for an athletic scholarship when you can have your bones broken while you are being pimped by the whatever that National College Slavery for "Student" Athletes Organization is called?
These are exactly the kind of things we SHOULD be discussing in a rational and thoughtful manner instead of how can we make our family friends and countrymen aware of the threat of islam for the World and us all.
But I digress... What I would like to see is one of these same liberal "Think Tanks" to tally up the cost of jihadist activity world-wide and the effect that has on such simple things as hunger, easily curable diseases, lost productivity both in Western and in Third World countries.
Don't even get me started asking to tally up the bill for islam since its inception some 1350 years ago.
Let's have the UN conduct a truly independent and transparent study about the economic effects - be they positive or negative - of islam on the countries and societies it has come in contact with.
If it weren't for the selfless work of the publishers of and contributors to this blog and others like it I - and many others like me -
might very well be lost in self-defeating recriminations of our "racism" when in fact it was our very logic and instinct for survival which brought us here to this vitally indispensable site.
Thank you, Hugh and Robert and all who have read this far.
May God bless you all. May God bless your Free Nations wherever you may live. May God bless those of you most of all who presently are forced to live in fear under the oppressive yoke of islam.
STAY STRONG. RESISTANCE IS VITAL.
at May 2, 2008 4:56 AM
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