LOL, Robert,stop being so negiative! For Peet's sake, don't you know shouldn't be potsing at 4:30 ahem. when you are are tired are you are at this our, you can't help but misunderestimate Islam again.

Posted by: templar at April 30, 2008 6:19 AM

Well, gee Robert, maybe you and Geert can have coffee in Amsterdam some time, hey? Sorry the rest of us didn't know that you carry an EU passport...heh, heh, heh. Facts are lovely things. Too bad Yahoo has to live-up to it's name.

Posted by: spinoneone at April 30, 2008 6:19 AM

@templar at April 30, 2008 6:19 AM
4:30 ahem equals 10:30 ahem Dutch time, wich is a pretty decent hour for a citizen in Holland...

Posted by: Kim Hartveld at April 30, 2008 6:42 AM

Robert

I think your book's subtitle should not read

Founder of the World's Most Intolerant Religion

It should simply read

Founder of the World's Intolerant Religion

Posted by: FreeSpeech at April 30, 2008 7:24 AM

Robert,
Wist ik niet u van Holland was en het Nederlands sprak!

Posted by: StephenDvd at April 30, 2008 7:36 AM

StephenDvd:

Ja, natuurlijk is het waar!

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at April 30, 2008 7:44 AM

To One Robert Spencer,

As much as I thorouhgly enjoy and have become addicted to reading your blog, as much a national hero you've been in helping to correct the laughably imbecilic notions regarding what Islamic Terrorists desire and how we need to conduct ourselves in the Islamic Lands, I do think the problem is people still can't be quite sure exaclty where you stand regarding the nature and character of muslim populations. Of course, that is by no means all your fault, however, I actually suspect there are notions who have that you're still cautious being open about, and maybe you should jsut forget it.

What I mean is regarding what being from a muslim background or being one of the 1.2 billion muslims implies. Does being Muslim necessarily imply you are culturally inferior to Westerners and all other non muslims, not capable of thinking creatively, producing great art or music like the West has sicne Abbas Ibn Firnasthe Renessaince, being scientifically accomplished and making strides in technology, mathematics, natural sciences and other areas? Does it imply your moral standards are necessarily corrupt and backwards, that you are not capable of feeling empathy for any non muslims? Does it imply you cannot be expected to accomplish what other immigrants have in the West? Does it imply you owe thw world an apology simply for your existence as a muslim even if you eventually leave Islam? And does it mean you cannot be considered a full human and must be deemed a sort of demon?

I have actually sort been able to determine, analyzing your writing, that you would actually say "yes, definitely without a doubt" to all the above questions. I guess I have those sort of mind reading/analytic powers that way. So, I sometimes think you should seriously just come out and say it. Nothing inherently wrong with it; people can see there are perfectly legimate reasons for feeling this way and it's definitley not unreasonable at all to feel this way. And of course, given how much he's driven it into the ground over the past several years, Hugh clearly, and I mean clearly, feels this way. So if you have these notions, and I suspect you do, just don't be afraid to say it. You can defend it agaisnt your detractors; you're a hell of a lot smarter than they give you credit for.

Of course, your detractors would respond in uproar to such notions. As they always do, they will respond trying to point out counterexamples, such illuminaries as Ibn al-'Awwam, Abbas Ibn Firnas, Alhazen, Albategnius, Averroes, Jabir ibn Hayyan, Abulcasis, Ibn Khaldun, al Razi, Al-Kindi, Al-Karaji, Muhammad ibn Musa and more recently the increasing number of succesful doctors and scientists coming to the West from Iran and Pakistan to protest the notion that Muslims ar enot capable of strides in math and natural sciences. They will point to Omar Kayyam and as one of the more recent examples, Berber musicians like Takfarinas, Lounis Ait Menguellet, Lounès Matoub and other famous singers/composers from North Africa as proof it's not true that Muslims can't produce great art and music. However, your views, if what I surmounted above are true, start feeling entitled to say it.

Oh, and keep up the great work, you know I love you even if what I surmounted above turns out to be a misinterpretation.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 30, 2008 8:26 AM

StephenDvd at April 30, 2008 7:36 AM
Wow, that's some bot you got there :)

Posted by: Kim Hartveld at April 30, 2008 8:31 AM

maxwell46&2:

Does being Muslim necessarily imply you are culturally inferior to Westerners and all other non muslims, not capable of thinking creatively, producing great art or music like the West has sicne Abbas Ibn Firnasthe Renessaince, being scientifically accomplished and making strides in technology, mathematics, natural sciences and other areas?

No.

Does it imply your moral standards are necessarily corrupt and backwards, that you are not capable of feeling empathy for any non muslims?

No.

Does it imply you cannot be expected to accomplish what other immigrants have in the West?

No.

Does it imply you owe thw world an apology simply for your existence as a muslim even if you eventually leave Islam?

No.

And does it mean you cannot be considered a full human and must be deemed a sort of demon?

No.

I have actually sort been able to determine, analyzing your writing, that you would actually say "yes, definitely without a doubt" to all the above questions. I guess I have those sort of mind reading/analytic powers that way.

Your analytical powers are quite poor if you think I hold any of those views. I do not. I ask you to establish any one of your charges with actual quotes from my writings.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at April 30, 2008 8:41 AM

Hey, if I write a factual book on Islam, and rankle some random Muslim apologist, do you think he'd write ME a new biography, too?

On second hand, I think I probably would just end up a stabbing victim ... (see other article)

On a more positive note, though ... did anyone else notice that the said-rankled-Muslim admitted that Robert's book contained "negative FACTS," and not the usual "blasphemous lies and heresies?"

Interesting ...

Posted by: Lori B. at April 30, 2008 8:46 AM

"While I disagree with what he's doing I'd actually love to meet the guy. I don't hate him - why should I? There are Muslims making mockeries of Christian figures and beleifs (sic)everyday!"

Part of an answer by "Novan" to Yahoo's question "do you hate Robert Spencer?"
Indeed, why should any Moslem hate RS? He's only pointing out what is said in the Koran and other Islamic holy books.

Posted by: ebonystone at April 30, 2008 8:48 AM

Oh, wait ... I forgot "Islamophobic."

Posted by: Lori B. at April 30, 2008 8:49 AM

Robert:
Why didn't you point out that Christians outnumber muslims two to one?

Posted by: CGW at April 30, 2008 9:02 AM

To Robert Spencer,

I suspose I was really overreaching in that last post. I'm fully aware that the main goal of your work is to get muslims to be candid and frank about assesing the Quranic scriptures, Hadiths, Sira, Biographies of Muhammad, and all other sources that inspire Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, Laskar Jihad, Jamal y Islamiyah and the Islamic genociders in Sudan, Iran and elsewhere. I also realize your obviosu goal of expalinign to the West that these aforementioned terrorists are at war with us due to their dictiations from Islam's texts, not due to Western colonialism or Israel or our Middle East infleunce. I can see your primary goals, as with htese you have done a great job enunciating them over and over again.

It's also the fact that since at least 90 percent of Jihad Watch posters and contributors have these views-again, with Hugh being the most blatantly obvious-I had wondered if you partially agree with them. If you unequivocably don't that's great as well. I still highly repect the work you're doing and I still think you, along with Daniel Pipes, Bostom, Ibn Warraq, Wafa Sultan, Tashbih Sayyed before he passed away, Steve Emerson and Bat Yeor all represent the Messiah when it comes to helping us correct our attitudes with the World of Islam.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 30, 2008 9:03 AM

More concerning "negative facts" about RS. One of your detractors -- I thought it was Esposito, but now I can't find the post where I saw it, so maybe it was someone else -- sneered that you were a graduate of a "Bible Belt" college, as though U-NC were some unaccredited backwoods seminary. One might just as truthfully describe Harvard and Yale as "Bible Belt" college since they were founded mainly to provide trained ministers for what were at the time some pretty funadmentalist denominations.

Posted by: ebonystone at April 30, 2008 9:20 AM

CGW:

Robert: Why didn't you point out that Christians outnumber muslims two to one?

I'm certainly not trying to conceal the fact. I was just struck by the one point ("negative facts") and didn't consider the rest worth a reply.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at April 30, 2008 9:20 AM

maxwell46&2:

I suspose I was really overreaching in that last post.

Not so much overreaching as misstating the positions I hold.

It's also the fact that since at least 90 percent of Jihad Watch posters and contributors have these views-again, with Hugh being the most blatantly obvious-I had wondered if you partially agree with them. If you unequivocably don't that's great as well.

Hugh can speak for himself, but I don't believe he holds those views either.

Again: if you think I hold these views, prove it from my writings. Otherwise, you are just spreading lies -- but I suspect you're already aware of that.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at April 30, 2008 9:24 AM

Robert,

My parents have just arrived in Bali for a month's holiday and brought (as requested)The Truth About Muhammad for me. As you can imagine, your books are not easily available here in Indonesia. Looking forward to start reading it this weekend!! Keep up the great work and may you continue to write negative facts about Islam that enlighten us all!!

Posted by: bigwhiteinfidel at April 30, 2008 9:28 AM

maxwell, do you consider all kufaar to be filthy?
Do you believe we are the worst of Creation?
Do you believe we are worthy of death?

I am so tired of moslems and their apologists whining about how the non-moslem world views them.
The shoe is on the other foot.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at April 30, 2008 9:39 AM

To interestinconundrum,

For the record, I'm not a muslim or a muslim apologist. That's why I said it would not be unreasonable if Robert Spencer holds those views. Think about it; if I were a muslim, I'd be far more liekly to say Robert Spencer needs to be decaptiated or roasted or skinned alive for holding such views. As it is, I think if, hypothetically, he did hold such views, it would be justificable.

And to Robert Spencer,

Just so we are on the same page, I offically retract what I said in my first post about what your views are on Islam and the Muslim population. I did sort of think you hold those views, but don't anymore, and will no longer suggest you share them. Since, as I said in the last 2 posts, I very much support your work on this blog, I don't want anyone thinking I'm here to spread lies or smears about you.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 30, 2008 9:49 AM

Does it imply [a Muslim's] moral standards are necessarily corrupt and backwards, that [a Muslim is] not capable of feeling empathy for any non muslims?

That would hinge entirely on the degree of accuracy and intensity to which the individual has imbibed/inculcated or rejected the precepts of Islam's amoral teachings, implements them in the real world (or shuns doing so), as well as his relative zeal.

Theorist                   Passion
                     \          /

Apostate      ---          Fundamentalist

                     /          \
Apathy                   Pragmatist

In other words, most Muslims are like most people, and the more they are to the left of the above diagram, the less dangerous they are and potentially more "empathetic" to their non-Muslim fellow specimens. If you choose to interpret my meaning as "the less Muslim, the better", well...

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 30, 2008 9:57 AM

I read the comments on the "Yahoo Answers." Scary.

I love RS.

I hate Islam. I also hate Naziism. They are the same.

I would hate Islam even if there were no RS.

To think of all those people (Mohammedans) who worship a Murder-god that doesn't even exist!

Scary. Scary as all-get-out.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 10:00 AM

I read the comments on the "Yahoo Answers." Scary.

I love RS.

I hate Islam. I also hate Naziism. They are the same.

I would hate Islam even if there were no RS.

To think of all those people (Mohammedans) who worship a Murder-god that doesn't even exist!

Scary. Scary as all-get-out.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 10:02 AM

maxwell46&2:

As it is, I think if, hypothetically, he did hold such views, it would be justificable.

Then you're not welcome here.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at April 30, 2008 10:03 AM

Max,

Mulsim or not you sure are pompous :) I will pray for you.. God bless.

Posted by: Weatherob at April 30, 2008 10:10 AM

>>Does being Muslim necessarily imply you are culturally inferior to Westerners and all other non muslims, not capable of thinking creatively, producing great art or music like the West has sicne Abbas Ibn Firnasthe Renessaince, being scientifically accomplished and making strides in technology, mathematics, natural sciences and other areas? -maxwell46&2

Speaking strictly for myself, please provide some examples of Mohammedan "strides in technology, math, natural sciences and other areas."

Please provide the names of some Mohammedan inventers and thinkers, such as Edison and Einstein. And a gazillion other Western examples, both European and American. And, who invented the Internet?

Please name some Mohammedan great artists and composers. Such as the West has in enormous abundance. Michaelangelo and Mozart, for examples.

Please provide a few examples of Mohammedan "scientific accomplishments."

Thanks for your time.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 10:10 AM

BTW, I just checked Yahoo answers, as I wanted to respond to it. Asd of now (7:38AM PST) the question has been deleted.

Someone's upset about free speech, eh?

"Kuffirs of the world, Unite!"
"Islam, abusing women and children since 622AD"

Posted by: OregonJake at April 30, 2008 10:42 AM

To darcy,

Since, as said before, I'm not a muslim apologist, I do not personally fins it necessary to respond to your inquiries, though they are perfectly legitimate to ask hot tempered muslim apologists. If I was a muslim apologist, I would probably be able to provide you a good sized list, which would include the Islamic names I mentioned in my first post. Granted, most of them would have lived between 900 and 1300 A.D. and would have been considered total phonies and hyppocrites by serious muslims. Nonetheless, i would still try.

To Robert Spencer,

I personally would not at all say yes to any of the questions I asked in my first questions above, just sympathize with anyone who does. I'd bet any amount of money I will ever make in the future, a lot of money, as I plan on being a multimillionare, that if you asked the questions I first posted to those who can be considered regular JW posters, at least three quarters would answer an unequivocal yes to all of them. I definitely wouldn't, but if others do that is not necessarily a terrible thing, just what is going to result among some portion Westerners as you try to galvanize all of them to protect themselves against jihadist groups.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 30, 2008 10:53 AM

Hi max. Got your reply. How 'bout these:

Still waiting for your examples of distinguished Mohammedans in the arts and sciences over the centuries, max. Both male and female. For example, Madame Curie's Mohammedan counterpart. What's her name? Jane Austen's Mohammedan counterpart? What's her name? Georgia O'Keefe's Mohammedan counterpart? Simone de Beauvoir's Mohammedan counterpart? Simone Weil's, Susan Sontag's, Oriana Fallaci's Mohammedan counterparts. What are their names? Amelia Earhart's and Sally Ride's Mohammedan counterparts?

Waiting.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 10:58 AM

maxwell46&2

Islam is an ideology and can be criticized or rejected.

Muslims are people. They can adhere to the ideology in one or another way and my even reject it (in public or not).

Posted by: FreeSpeech at April 30, 2008 11:02 AM

maxwell 46&2:

I personally would not at all say yes to any of the questions I asked in my first questions above, just sympathize with anyone who does. I'd bet any amount of money I will ever make in the future, a lot of money, as I plan on being a multimillionare, that if you asked the questions I first posted to those who can be considered regular JW posters, at least three quarters would answer an unequivocal yes to all of them. I definitely wouldn't, but if others do that is not necessarily a terrible thing, just what is going to result among some portion Westerners as you try to galvanize all of them to protect themselves against jihadist groups.

Let me be perfectly clear, sir:

1. I do not hold any of those positions, and never have.

2. I do not agree with or approve of anyone who holds any of those positions.

3. I don't believe that you are sympathetic to those positions. Rather, it is clear, particularly in light of the last paragraph of your first comment above, that you are (rather clumsily) trying to portray me and people who comment here as genocidal bigots who believe Muslims are sub-human, so as to discredit this site and our defense of human rights against Islamic supremacism and jihad violence. You apparently think that by claiming to be sympathetic to this perspective you will get me to admit that those are my views. Well, sorry. They aren't, and I see through you.

4. Anyone who comments here who holds such positions -- that Muslims are subhuman etc. -- is not in accord with my views, and is not welcome here. When we see such comments, we remove them and ban the person who made them. However, comments remain mostly unmoderated. I refer you to the statement at the top of each comments field for a handy guide to how any given comment may relate to my own beliefs.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at April 30, 2008 11:03 AM

Somebody might as well say it.

It was the israeli occupation of the arab muslim country of palestine, denying an entire nation of arab muslims the right to their historic lands, whcih they have a far older claim to then the israelis, who are all just illegal jewish settles on the country of palestine. Israel, along with the US, UK and their allies are solely responsible for the bombing and all the innocents killed; this would not have happened if they did not occupy muslim countries. Hence, US/UK/Israel/Australia/Albania/Poland, (basically Israel and all countries currently involved in the Iraq conflict), have effectively murdered 26 more innocent people in Pakiworld.

And you know, if you showed this in the college campus I live on, that would have been in all seriousness the most likely response.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 29, 2007 1:33 AM
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016233.php#c386301

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 30, 2008 11:14 AM

I was largely speaking from a practical point. My main inquiry to Hugh was, do you expect our politicians to be saying "We need to ask all future immigrants, "Are you a Muslim?" and if they say "yes", no matter if they are devout or muslim in name only, then we simply eject them or more likely even have them jailed on treason charges"? If that's what you're saying, then obviously it's understandable why you'd feel that way, but again, how realistic and practical would it be for our leaders to ever start calling for such measures? Considering what the intent of this site is I suspect if such measures were practical and did not have any moral controversy attached Robert Spencer would have already advocated it a long time ago.

Posted by: maxwell46&2 at April 26, 2007 5:00 PM
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016199.php#c385183

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 30, 2008 11:26 AM

maxwell 46&2:

I've been reading Robert Spencer's articles and seeing his lectures on youtube for more than a year now, and i must say he has the wisest aproach to the Jihad problem, he doesn't even has to say what action should governments take next, his work (for what i can conclude) is to bring awareness to the public and authorities by directly analysis of Jihad ideology and it's impact on the material world. Once that happens, they (nations) will know what to do, they will have accurate knowledge to base their course of action.

For instance, if the public and governments simple follow Robert's 5 simple sugestions of confronting moderate muslims about the ideology that the Jihadis base and justify their actions, than muslims themselves will put in a situation in wich they have to choose openly what to support, the non-supremacist freedom loving west or the fanatical nature of Jihad. Robert only pushes for that awareness, it will be muslims who will ultimately choose, it will they who will say "we're with you" or "we're the fanatical and suicidal".

Robert only pushes for a honest recognition of what is in fact expressed in the Koran and what muslims stand for.

After that, it will be just simple to know what to do :)

Posted by: José, the fenec. at April 30, 2008 11:48 AM

maxwell,

Fortunately, Robert and others like him, including the claimed "90% of posters", do find moral controversy attached to actions taken in regards to citizenship, sedition and human rights.

Those that don't are the imaginary and fringe crowd you hoped to find by posting here.

Westerners are allowed to think according to a moral compass, whether divinely inspired or no.

Muslims who cling to the Q'uran and its "leaders" for guidance may only use it as a guide, rather than using innate human freedoms as a touchpoint.

Too bad, really, there are a lot of good people out there who would do the right thing if they didn't have the threat of apostasy hanging over their heads.

You're looking in the wrong direction, pal.

Posted by: winoceros at April 30, 2008 11:55 AM

maxwell46&2:

Those who ask questions should also be willing to answer questions. Its a corollary of the golden rule.

Posted by: JSobieski at April 30, 2008 12:18 PM

Methinks maxwell46&2 has been reading too much Auster as of late. As unfortunate as that premise may be, the alternative is far worse.

Posted by: awake at April 30, 2008 12:44 PM

maxwell46&2,

> I very much support your work on this blog,
> I don't want anyone thinking I'm here to
> spread lies or smears about you

You are the living embodiment of disingenuousness.

> I plan on being a multimillionare

Unless your daddy owns some mideast oil fields, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen!

Posted by: StephenDvd at April 30, 2008 2:37 PM

Maxwell--you asked some very important questions and you should not feel the least bit regretful about having done so. Unfortunately there is a bit of a group think here at jihadwatch and ignoring the unsavory elements that frequently pop up at this board--be it thinly veiled Christian triumphantism or thinly veiled white supremacism--is completely encouraged. If you question these things--even while agreeing with the Spencer's critiques--you are automatically accused of being disingenious or being a Muslim apologist. And it appears that Robert Spencer is praticing a policy of aggressive denial in regards to some of these repellant views held by the majority of his readers. Observe the frequent use of the term "Mohammedian"--this is from the same people that Robert Spencer enlists as comrades on his crusade.

Posted by: ibrahimX at April 30, 2008 4:11 PM

maxwell46&2 is baiting you, Robert.

Posted by: Eastview at April 30, 2008 4:21 PM

First, there is nothing wrong with the use of the term, Mohammedian, Mahometan, etc., no more means that a Muslim worships Mohammed, any more than it means a Methodist worships the Method, a Seventh Day Adventist worships the seventh day, a Jehovah's Witness worships himself, or a Buddhist worships Buddha. Any portrayed offense in this matter is pretense. Grow up, we're not falling for it.

Secondly,

And it appears that Robert Spencer is praticing [sic] a policy of aggressive denial in regards to some of these repellant views held by the majority of his readers.

Robert is protecting himself from unwarranted attempted character assignation. Judge him by his own words, he's written several million of them. Go ahead, try.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 30, 2008 4:34 PM

Posted by: ibrahimX at April 30, 2008 4:11 PM

Actually, ibrahimX, maxwell was attempting to "analyze" Robert's viewpoint by making broad generalizations about what he believes Spencer believes, even though they are not supported by any of Robert's writing.

Robert specifically addressed each point of maxwell's "analysis" shortly after and refuted every point that maxwell believes that Robert believes.

Since I don't know what triumphantism means, I will assume that you mean the occassional proselytization that unfortunately occurs here, although it is certainly not limited to Christians, nor is it supported at this site.

Your charge of "thinly veiled white supremacism" as an unsavory characteristic of many JW readers is completely unfounded, nor is it encouraged one iota at this site.

Surely this malaise, which you deem as prevalent here is easily validated by a concrete example or two, right?

Aas far as Mohammedian? Are you referring to this mohammedan?

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=mohammedan

Posted by: awake at April 30, 2008 4:44 PM

maxwell46&2 - "I plan on being a multimillionare"

In my opinion achieving that goal requires abilities like:

- skillfully managing your time, energy and resources

- having a plan and sticking to it

- successful risk manangement

- convincing others to participate in your efforts

- and persistence

Max, from your comments here I don't think you got much of a chance. But good luck!
Also spelling helps, it's multimillionaire

Posted by: Rob at April 30, 2008 4:44 PM

"...ignoring the unsavory elements that frequently pop up at this board...is completely encouraged. If you question these things...you are automatically accused of being disingenious or being a Muslim apologist."
Posted by: ibrahimX

Can't agree with you on this, ibrahimX (and I assume you mean "disingenuous"). Comments that exceed the bounds of taste or civility of the kind you object to above are frequently excised from this site. I'd say Robert and his crew do an excellent job of keeping JW/DW respectable. It's true that there is a POV about Islam that is shared by most of the posters here, but the "group think" you mention, with its obviously intended negative connotation, simply reflects that POV.

Posted by: Eastview at April 30, 2008 4:45 PM

ibrahimX,

I won't dispute some of your points, but I don't think being Occidentalocentric makes me a veiled white supremacist, though it may make you feel uncomfortable. I don't think "Mohammedan," a word established within English for over three centuries, is an epithet or necessarily pejorative, though if you prefer the self-descriptive "Muslim" (though I think you are a secularist), I will grant you that. I know that flat-out racism, advocating blanket violence, and pushing unjust discrimination are not welcome here.

Posted by: John C at April 30, 2008 4:45 PM

ibrahimX,

"Maxwell... you are automatically accused of being disingenious"

disingenuousness: "lacking in candor"

maxwell46&2's original post was rather blatantly and ignorantly trying to bait Robert into "admitting" to views such as that "Muslim necessarily ... are culturally inferior...and must be deemed a sort of demon", etc.

However, after Robert went point by point dispelling these radically false accusations, maxwell46&2 comes back with:

"For the record, I'm not a muslim or a muslim apologist. ... I very much support your work on this blog, I don't want anyone thinking I'm here to spread lies or smears about you."

Which is obviously what maxwell46&2 is doing in all of his previous posts.

So no one is "automatically" accusing maxwell46&2 of being disingenuousness.

He is in fact being disingenuousness.

Posted by: StephenDvd at April 30, 2008 5:21 PM

> So no one is "automatically" accusing
> maxwell46&2 of being disingenuousness.
>He is in fact being disingenuousness.

Obviously should have read "accusing maxwell46&2 of being disingenuous. He is in fact being disingenuous".

Thats what happens when you cut-and-paste at the end of the day!

Posted by: StephenDvd at April 30, 2008 5:32 PM

Observe the frequent use of the term "Mohammedian"--this is from the same people that Robert Spencer enlists as comrades on his crusade.

Posted by: ibrahimX at April 30, 2008 4:11 PM

Hi ibrahimX.

Mohammedan. Mohammedan. Mohammedan.

Since "Allah" is a pagan moon deity that doesn't exist, you people definitely worship Mohammed, who made up Islam. Therefore, you're Mohammedans!

Winston Churchill used the term "Mohammedans." That's good enough for me.

And, bravo Crusades! The Crusades began due to Mohammedan aggression of Christian Lands, and because Mohammedans were murdering Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land. BRAVO CRUSADES!

Bye Ibrahim - you Mohammedan.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 5:52 PM

Oh, Ibrahim - who invented the Internet, which you so joyously use?

Answer: ______________

Waiting for your reply, Ibrahim Mohammedan!

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 5:56 PM

"Oh, Ibrahim - who invented the Internet, which you so joyously use?

Answer: ______________

Waiting for your reply, Ibrahim Mohammedan!"
Posted by: darcy

Darcy, are you implying it might actually have been a Muslim, and not Al Gore? I'm shocked, shocked!

Posted by: Eastview at April 30, 2008 6:11 PM

quote: Since "Allah" is a pagan moon deity that doesn't exist, you people definitely worship Mohammed, who made up Islam. Therefore, you're Mohammedans!

If it is wrong of Muslims to call people of other faiths something they did not choose for themselves--"kafir" and such--then surely it is wrong to call Muslims something they did not choose to call themselves, especially such a rather deragotry term as "mohammedian" for, while Mohammed is an important figure in Islam, surely no Muslim prays to him.

At any rate, do you really think you're hurting me or being clever by saying Allah doesn't exist? I agree entirely--just realize that, if yourself are religous, it is just as easy to doubt the foundations of that faith. So if you're a Christian, you can't be saying Mohammed was a fraud or Allah (i.e, God)doesn't exist without realizing that the same could just as easily be claimed about Jesus or what you regard as "your" God.

At any rate--someone else made the point that Babtists are known as Babtists, as a defense of the term "mohammedian." This point largely missed the obvious distinction that Babtists call themselves Babtists--no Muslim calls himself Mohamedian.

It is curious that Robert Spencer is silent on the issue of his readers so frequently employing a repulsive, hate filled term against Muslims. He is quick to defend them from the charge that they regard Muslims as inferior demons, yet when they behave in a fashion that clearly indicates they are of a mindset which is comfortable with the dehumanization of Muslims--and surely calling them "Mohammedian" is dehumanization--he remains silent. Perhaps he is embarrassed of this crowd he attracts, or perhaps he secretely endorses their usage of the term. Whatever the case, his silence is telling.

Posted by: ibrahimX at April 30, 2008 6:24 PM

quote: "Oh, Ibrahim - who invented the Internet, which you so joyously use?

Answer: ______________

Waiting for your reply, Ibrahim Mohammedan!

"

This is why I said "thinly veiled white supremacists." That same crowd often lists the accomplishments of whites--or Westerners--as proof that the rest of the world is inferior.

Unfortunately Darcy isn't just sticking it to the Muslims but rather to all Non-Western people in general. This is why Jihadwatch (the forum, that is) can be a fairly uncomfortable place if you aren't an ethnic Westerner.

Posted by: ibrahimX at April 30, 2008 6:32 PM

"...thinly veiled white supremacism"
"...uncomfortable place if you aren't an ethnic Westerner."

ibrahimX, I am neither white nor an "ethnic westerner". I feel fairly comfortable in Jihadwatch.

Posted by: marts at April 30, 2008 6:40 PM

marts, I know that a fair amount of non-whites post here, and I really don't mean to make this a racial thing--it's just that much of the rhetoric one sees at the Jihadwatch boards is earily reminiscent of white supremacist/white nationalist rhetoric one finds across the web. The endless boasting over Western accomplishments--the calls to end all Muslim immigration--the general extreme Right wing bent of the place--it all adds to something unwelcoming to those who believe that all people deserve to be treated equally and their basic human dignity respected.

Posted by: ibrahimX at April 30, 2008 6:50 PM

ibrahimX says,

"...it all adds to something unwelcoming to those who believe that all people deserve to be treated equally and their basic human dignity respected."

Too bad you weren't around to counsel Muhammad on equality and respecting human dignity.

I'm not sure what country you live in, but if it is the West you certainly will be, for the most part, treated equally with your dignity respected.

Can the same thing be said about you, if you are a Muslim, being treated the same way in an Islamic country?

And, what about a non-Muslim living in those same lands?

Posted by: Aiken Bryce at April 30, 2008 7:00 PM

I know that a fair amount of non-whites post here, and I really don't mean to make this a racial thing

Posted by: ibrahimX at April 30, 2008 6:50 PM

And yet, by your loose and unfounded statement about "thinly veiled white supremacism", you did just that.

Pro-western, anti-jihadist sentiments are not a crime, nor should they ever be deemed as such.

A simple apology from you will suffice in my estimation.

Posted by: awake at April 30, 2008 7:00 PM

LOL!

Hey Mohammedan Ibrahim - you didn't answer my simple question: Who invented the Internet?

Also, "Allah" is the ISLAMIC "god" - nothing to do with the Jewish and Christian God. Nothing.

OK, so who invented the Internet? And, the lightbulb? And, the radio? And, the TV? And, the automobile? And, electricity? And, plumbing? And, the photograph? And, the telephone? And, the cell phone? And, the train? And, the airplane? And, spacecraft? And, organ transplants? And, polio cure? And, modern medicine? What mullahs or ayatollahs invented ALL of these scientific and technological achievements, of which, I daresay, YOU use ALL of them?!!

LOL! If you could site any Mohammedan who invented any of the above, you'd be crowing through the roof! Instead, of course, it's SOUR GRAPES - because Mohammedans have invented NOTHING. And yet, you use everything us filthy kuffar have invented and created - you hypocrites!

Oh, and you people DO say "Jesus was a fraud, not the Son of God," - I couldn't care less! Because Jesus, a true Prophet, can stand up to your blackening His name, whereas, apparently, neither Mohamet the false prophet, nor allah, the pagan moon deity, can't! LOL!

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 7:15 PM

Ibrahim, as a long-time lurker and (very) occassional poster at JW, I have to say that I haven't come across anything in the boards that may be regarded as white supremacist. Of course, I don't read each and every post, but the overall impression I get is far from "extreme Right wing". As for the web in general, I don't visit white supremacist sites so I can't comment on that.
I respectfully disagree with you regarding "boasting over Western accomplishments". If a person, whatever his ethnicity is proud of his nation's accomplishments or heritage, well, I just don't see that as racist or disrepectful.
Regarding calls to end Muslim immigration, well, it's their country; they can call for policies which they think is best for their society. All nations have a right to preserve their culture. Just my two cents worth.

Posted by: marts at April 30, 2008 7:20 PM

ibrahimX,

About darcy, if she may forgive me, she can be--shall we say--strident sometimes.

When fixed points of view are expressed in the form of personal attacks, that is something that, when we are called on it, results in our postings being deleted or ourselves being banned. These are clean, self-policed, respectable and respectful sites.

Posted by: John C at April 30, 2008 7:22 PM

Psst. Don't tell the Muslims that there will soon be more Biblical christians then there are radical muslims. Oooh nuts I let the cat out of the bag. oh well.

Posted by: Clifford at April 30, 2008 7:22 PM

Oh, and excuse me, but I do NOT have to feel ashamed of being white - in fact, I'm proud. I'm not brown or black and I don't have to apologize for not being so! How insane that I even have to write such a defense.

Name one, ONE, invention by Mohammedans. ONE.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 7:23 PM

Psst. Don't tell the Muslims that there will soon be more Biblical Christians then there are radical muslims. Oooh nuts I let the cat out of the bag. oh well.

Posted by: Clifford at April 30, 2008 7:23 PM

marts,

I know of one singular instance of a plainly racist comment slipping by--I myself hesitated to report it--every other such comment that I know of has been promptly deleted.

Posted by: John C at April 30, 2008 7:26 PM

Excuse me, patronizing John C, but, why don't you just stick to your own comments?

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 7:28 PM

About John C, if he may forgive me, he can be --shall we say -- haughty, patronizing, and conceited, sometimes.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 7:32 PM

darcy,

If I'm not mistaken, ibrahimX is not a religious believer at all; so why bait the fellow?

Posted by: John C at April 30, 2008 7:34 PM

I seem to remember that ibrahimX is of Somali extraction; but then, if I'm wrong on that, I'm a Dutchman named Doew.

Posted by: John C at April 30, 2008 7:38 PM

>>I respectfully disagree with you regarding "boasting over Western accomplishments". If a person, whatever his ethnicity is proud of his nation's accomplishments or heritage, well, I just don't see that as racist or disrepectful. --marts

Bravo. Right out of Oriana Fallaci's brilliant "The Rage and The Pride." PRIDE.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 7:39 PM

Regarding calls to end Muslim immigration, well, it's their country; they can call for policies which they think is best for their society. All nations have a right to preserve their culture. Just my two cents worth.

Posted by: marts at April 30, 2008 7:20 PM

Bravo, again. You echo La Fallaci.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 7:42 PM

ibrahimX,

I followed the link that Mr. Spencer posted to Yahoo Answers and read all of the comments to "Whoo?'s" question,"Do you hate Robert Spencer?" most of which were by Muslim apologists whose counsel was basically to ignore Mr. Spencer.

That wouldn't do at all, I thought, and so I registered and added a comment:

"Whoo?, Allow me to suggest that you try READING Mr. Spencer's books and then you can form your own opinion without having to depend on the opinions of those who haven't read Mr. Spencer's books, and probably never will."

After mulling that over for a bit, I deleted it in favor of this comment:

"Whoo?, Mohammad was, in "negiative" fact, a murderer, a thief, a liar and oath breaker, a rapist and a pedophile, who also claimed to be the last and best prophet of a cruel god that he invented and named "Allah."

Soon after, someone named "TS" posted links to jihad watch and dhimmi watch. That was around 8:30 a.m., eastern time. Some time after that, the question was deleted.

I have no doubt that my heartfelt and most sincere comment was reported as inappropriate by some irate true believer, (maybe by you, Mr. ibrahimX?) but I didn't imagine that the entire question plus commentary would be yanked by the Yahoos. Was it MY FAULT??? Have I done the cause a disservice?

Posted by: Lex at April 30, 2008 7:43 PM

darcy,

I may be pompous and a know-it-all, but if you knew me, you wouldn't think that I'm arrogant or had an inflated opinion of myself; I don't think I look down on anybody--certainly not you--except ill-willed people who practice deceit and act in bad faith.

Posted by: John C at April 30, 2008 7:47 PM

>>Pro-western, anti-jihadist sentiments are not a crime, nor should they ever be deemed as such." --awake

Yet again, Bravo.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 7:48 PM

"or thinly veiled white supremacism" --IbrahimX

The irony of Ibrahim's complaint is that it's a well-known fact that Muslims consider themselves to be the "best of peoples" (as Mo told them) and superior to everyone else ("Infidels" and "Kuffars")! LOL! What irony! And of course the Mohammedan doesn't even see it.

"Kill the Infidels (the worst of creatures)! as "Allah" loves commanding in the Q. Oh, pity us, poor "Sons of Apes and Pigs!" And here's the Muslim accusing US of "supremacism!" LOL!

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 8:00 PM

"...it all adds to something unwelcoming to those who believe that all people deserve to be treated equally and their basic human dignity respected." ~ ibrahimX

It's a sad thing, I tell ya, that I can't conclude that ibrahimX is not a Muslim, because I've learned about taqiyya from this site. I mean, no true Muslim would believe that all people deserve to be treated equally, especially when he considers that Allah has cursed Jews and Christians, but then, war is deceit, and this jihadwatch front, well, it IS war!

Posted by: Lex at April 30, 2008 8:18 PM

--then surely it is wrong to call Muslims something they did not choose to call themselves

They ask us to call it "The Religion of Peace", but I'm not going to do that, just because they choose it. Mahometan as a noun carries no perjorative meaning. Verse 33:21 should tell you why we still use Mohammedan and its variants, accurately, and why it seems to have taken decades or centuries for it to have become an instantaneously perceived insult.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 30, 2008 9:52 PM

Does being Muslim necessarily imply you are culturally inferior to Westerners and all other non muslims, not capable of thinking creatively, producing great art or music like the West has sicne Abbas Ibn Firnasthe Renessaince, being scientifically accomplished and making strides in technology, mathematics, natural sciences and other areas?

No.

Does it imply your moral standards are necessarily corrupt and backwards, that you are not capable of feeling empathy for any non muslims?

No.

Does it imply you cannot be expected to accomplish what other immigrants have in the West?

No.

Does it imply you owe thw world an apology simply for your existence as a muslim even if you eventually leave Islam?
No.

And does it mean you cannot be considered a full human and must be deemed a sort of demon?

No.

That is the short-answer reply. There is a great deal more one could say, in order to flesh out an insufficient answer to questions that are not adequately worded, sometimes because they are loaded, and sometimes because they miss the larger point to which a "no" or a "yes" would be inadequate, and misleading.

Posted by: Hugh at April 30, 2008 10:18 PM

Although he denies being one, maxwell46&2 exhibits all the classic negative traits one has come to associate with Muslims. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are good it is a duck.

Posted by: Eastview at April 30, 2008 10:39 PM

Regardless of "maxwell46&2"'s relative ideological status, one thing is now blatantly clear.

He or she was erroneous regarding what was perceived as Robert's or Hugh's position on anything, until proven otherwise.

This particular gauntlet was laid down much earlier in this regard to "maxwell". Don't expect any response, however, to this charge.

Regardless

Regarding

Regard

A fantastic word imho.

Posted by: awake at April 30, 2008 10:55 PM

Regardless

Regarding

Regard

A fantastic word imho.
Posted by: awake

Huh?

Posted by: Eastview at April 30, 2008 11:06 PM

Posted by: Eastview at April 30, 2008 11:06 PM

Read my entire comment and then critique, not just the end.

Regards.......

awake

Posted by: awake at April 30, 2008 11:24 PM

Robert Spencer is from Holland
yeh right
I also heard that he was a f..jew many times.

But all those lies ....do they really matter?

Not at all because;Monsieur Spencer vole plus haut que tout ce beau monde.

For me , Robert Spencer ia not only super smart, he is first a man with a big heart and what is said in his books is only the truth.
and only the truth hurts .
All those ignorant Mohamed Ben Youssef cannot stand somebody telling the truth.
So far I have never seen an ally of Islam that RS could not shut up just with 2 or 3 sentences.
Pretty Good job.
God bless and protect Robert Spencer

Posted by: Tartine at April 30, 2008 11:47 PM

Posted by: Tartine at April 30, 2008 11:47 PM

And for that comment, I commend you and label you an eternal ally and call upon you as a friend at this site.

The anti-jihadist movement, under Robert's tutelage of course, certainly needs some cohesion.

"God bless and protect Robert Spencer
"

Posted by: awake at May 1, 2008 12:01 AM

maxwell46&2 = WeDieYoung
interesting nic.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at May 1, 2008 1:03 AM

Robert,
Surprise, surprise!!! U woont in mijn geboorte land. Mijn ouders en andere familieleden wonen allemaal in Holland. En ik woon hier alleen in California.
Mijn oudste zoon in Qatar, altijd bang dat hem iets zal overkomen. Maar gelukkig is het daar niet als toen hij in Iraq was en later Afghanistan.
Mijn andere zoon is in Columbus, Ohio. Hij is een Emergency Physican in a hospital.
Er is zoveel veranderd in Holland sinds ik daar vertrokken ben en jammer genoeg niet in het voordeel. Maar toch mis ik zoveel van Holland en als ik daar ben mis ik dingen van hier.
Wat gaat er gebeuren in deze gekke wereld.
Een geloofsoorlog, olieoorlog, machtsoorlog,over stukken land en ga maar door.
Slaap jij eigenlijk weleens.
Ayaan Hersi Alie ook zo'n moedige vrouw.
Wees voorzichtig.
Vriendelijke groeten,
Mimi.

Posted by: Maria at May 1, 2008 6:37 AM

Mimi,

Het is zeer aardig om van u te horen. Nederland is een mooi land.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at May 1, 2008 6:59 AM

They ask us to call it "The Religion of Peace", but I'm not going to do that, just because they choose it. Mahometan as a noun carries no perjorative meaning. Verse 33:21 should tell you why we still use Mohammedan and its variants, accurately, and why it seems to have taken decades or centuries for it to have become an instantaneously perceived insult.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at April 30, 2008 9:52 PM

Concerned Citizen, I have looked up sura 33, "The Confederates," and verse 21. I think our Q copies must be different. Here's verse 21 in my copy: "A noble pattern had ye in God's Apostle, for all who hope in God, and in the latter day, and oft remember God."

Is that the verse you are referring to? If not, and you happen to read this, please post the correct verse. I'm very interested in the point you're making.

Posted by: darcy at May 1, 2008 9:05 AM

Darcy,

Yes, that is the verse that I intended. Muslims are to emulate the "noble pattern" of Mohammed in all he did, including shaving their pubic hair, plucking their armpits, how they stand when they pee, what direction they face and the manner and supplies with which they wipe their anus after defecating. Strict adherance to these and other seemingly senseless elements of the Noble Pattern allows us to call them Mohammedans with impunity and without apologies. If they are proud to follow it, then they should bear no shame in attention being called to it. It is a time-honored term, historically only occasionally questioned, has only recently been consistently cast as a derogation, for political gain in claiming abuse and victimization in the current climate of niceties and correctness. In the past, it was sufficient to reply, "Yes, we understand you don't worship Mohammed."

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at May 1, 2008 11:16 AM

Awake

Yea,
I will love and support Robert Spencer until the day the lasr imported Mohamed Wahabi will be sent back home , and the one who has been homegrown will be resting in a jail with a piece of tape all over his mouth.

Posted by: Tartine at May 1, 2008 12:57 PM

Thank You, Concerned Citizen.

I have copied my inquiry and your reply for my records. I value your reply. Thanks for responding.

Posted by: darcy at May 1, 2008 6:48 PM

FYI, The question concerned appears to have been deleted from Yahoo Answers

Posted by: JamesThailand at May 1, 2008 7:24 PM

Darcy,

You are great! So full of vinegar and , um... Well you know!

:)

ABS

Posted by: Drewbenstein at May 1, 2008 9:07 PM