Sarcasm on/

The stabbing of two Jews by Mohamed Jama Ahmed cannot be classified as a hate crime merely because of the fact that both victims were Jewish or merely because of the fact that the attack appears to be a random attack against Jews. The fact that both victims were Jewish may just be a coincidence. Moreover, one cannot exclude the possibility that Ahmed's animus was directed at infidels in general and not just against Jews in particular. Therefore, we should not rush to judgment that this is a hate crime or an attack against Jews qua Jews. There is no hate crime statute in England for muslims attacking infidels. Infidels are not confined to any race, religion, colour or creed, so an attack by a muslim against an infidel in general cannot be classified as a hate crime in particular. Moreover, all muslim scholars agree it cannot be a crime to do what allah commands muslims to do.

Sarcasm off/
The Opinionator, a straight forward internet blogger, succinctly summarized the problem of muslim upon infidel hate crimes in describing a recent incident wherein a group of 15 marauding Muslim youths with baseball bats beat within inches of his life a random infidel. Opinionator summarized the Koranic commandments which in support of the attack of infidels advocate to muslim followers and muslim groups saying that the Quran tells:

"...Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly (Q. 9:123), slay them (Q. 9:5), fight with them, (Q. 8: 65 ) even if they are Christians and Jews, humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax (Q. 9: 29). Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tell clearly that no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q. 3: 85). It relegates those who disbelieve in Quran to hell (Q. 5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q. 9: 28). It orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (Q. 2: 193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q. 14: 17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that “they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter” (Q.5: 34). “As for the disbelievers”, it says that “for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods” (Q. 22: 9). Quran prohibits a Muslim to befriend a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (Q. 9: 23), (Q. 3: 28). Quran asks the Muslims to “strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q. 25: 52), be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q. 66: 9). The holy Prophet demanded his follower to “strike off the heads of the disbelievers”; then after making a “wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives” (Q. 47: 4)."

http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/04/gang-of-15-musl.html

Posted by: David England at April 30, 2008 7:52 AM

The cops over there must be claivoyant! They can always rule out certain possible motives before they even look at the facts of the case or do any investigating. I wonder how they do it?

Posted by: Jan Sobieski at April 30, 2008 7:55 AM

Bury the rag deep in your face, now is the time for your tears.

Posted by: anti-uffe at April 30, 2008 8:11 AM

I extend my sympathies to all the Jewish victims of Islamic violence and intimidation in Europe sold out by the grandkids of those who eagerly helped the Nazis ship Jews to death camps.

However, I am at a loss to explain why are the American Jewish intellectual elites, academics, politicians, judges, those at the helm of the media and entertainment industry and the even the sundry American Jew with the vote and checkbook are in effect agitating politically and legally to undermine America’s Christian heritage, its Anglo-Saxon culture and yes even Western civilization as a whole by being constantly on the side of all the wrongheaded ideologies, disastrous political and legal activism and cultural trends. Can that be explained in psychological terms as a subconscious attempt to seek revenge on the Christian West which persecuted their ancestors for so long or just plain foolhardiness and nativity? Does it not follow that American Jews stand to lose the most when the culture and civilization that so many of their compatriots work so earnestly to undermine under the guise of leftist ideologies, militant liberalism, judicial activism, radical feminism, sexual liberation and political correctness collapses and is promptly taken over by ruthless Muslims intent on fulfilling Mohamed’s prophecies of doom concerning the Jews. I doubt that many have the moral courage to examine my thoughts without simply dismissing them as anti-Semitism. It had to be said.

Posted by: have_mercy at April 30, 2008 8:25 AM

Secular policy is based upon, in the words of Francis Schaeffer, personal peace and prosperity. If an incident does not affect me directly (my personal peace and prosperity, why should I exclaim about or act on it? Because if I start trying to enforce the consequences of moral judgements (intolerant behaviour wrongly defined), then I might actually have to do something about the actions of another (that is called law) and I might have to give up personal peace and prosperity in the process (the ultimate sin).

Just my opinion.

Posted by: OolongChung at April 30, 2008 9:09 AM

In Reply to: have-mercy

It is gross misinformed generalisations such as yours that help no one.

Your first point "I extend my sympathies to all the Jewish victims of Islamic violence and intimidation in Europe sold out by the grandkids of those who eagerly helped the Nazis ship Jews to death camps."

You are talking utter shite and I will leave it at that. The amount of blood my family spilled to stop the Nazi's will be remembered by our families for a long time to come.

I wonder how many of your family died? Stop posturing/grandstanding amoungst your friends we are all Infidels and all have the same problem. The future is our current concern. There were many mistakes in the past which we can all learn from and never repeat.

-------------------------------------

Now I agree with your point about the media taking a back seat and I also cannot understand this. They have so much power yet they are all scared to deal with the reality. The public know where the problems are.

In the UK the BBC will not even mention the Islamic link.

Posted by: Angus Og MacDonald at April 30, 2008 9:13 AM

In the UK the BBC will not even mention the Islamic link.

Posted by: Angus Og MacDonald at April 30, 2008 9:13 AM

Ain't it the truth!

Posted by: Shy Guy at April 30, 2008 10:20 AM

As expected from both the Muslim and the British, the bully and the sissy. Disgusted with both.

Posted by: MontyRockIV at April 30, 2008 10:25 AM

"In the UK the BBC will not even mention the Islamic link."

But you can bet they'd be thrilled if they could mention a Christian link.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 10:28 AM

As expected from both the Muslim and the British, the bully and the sissy. Disgusted with both.

Posted by: MontyRockIV at April 30, 2008 10:25 AM

Really. It's just unbelievable what's going on. Apparently Orwell did not make a dent in the minds of his fellow-Brits. Not a dent.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 10:31 AM

Angus,
You remember the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis. They set out to purge Europe of its Jewish communities, which had contributed much to European culture for centuries. The Nazis were smiled upon by the Muslims.
Islam wants to wipe Israel off the map. Why are Europeans silent in the face of attacks on Jews throughout Europe? Europe's Jewish community is but a shell of its former self. Where are their fellow citizens? People are being targeted because they are Jewish. Why wouldn't that worry the police? Why wouldn't the citizenry stand up against it? Car accidents are random. These killings aren't.

Posted by: PMK at April 30, 2008 10:56 AM

Thank goodness it was only Jews he stabbed; which is second only to stabbing your daughter for your family honor. Crisis averted.

Posted by: TheOmegaMan at April 30, 2008 11:10 AM

North Circular Road, Cricklewood,

It's almost funny that a muslim named Mohamad would have such an address. I wonder if he prays at the Cricklewood Mosque, on South Circular Road. You can never get lost on Circular Road, just keep moving and you will end up where you started. That's exactly Islam. You can convert or be born to it, but eventually you will traverse the circle back to the beginning (haj). You have gained nothing, and only achieved sore feet. Unless of course, you recognize that there is profit in confusion, and become an Imam, an Ayatollah even. Then, you make others pay you to walk in a circle (Zakat/jizya))...Sounds like a plan...sweet huh...

Posted by: duh_swami at April 30, 2008 11:24 AM

"random and unprovoked" - Yeah, pull the other one, it's got bells on it. Jews worldwide should be raising hell about assaults like these, yet most of them choose to pretend it is not happening. France and the UK are becoming dangerous places to be a Jew. What has happened to NEVER AGAIN? My friends, it seems as if history is repeating itself. Jewish leaders and Jews in the public eye need to make some noise now. If you do not protect yourselves who will?

Posted by: MP at April 30, 2008 11:28 AM

>>What has happened to NEVER AGAIN? --MP

People forget. New atrocities have to occur. Then, after a time, the atrocities are stopped by force, and people write slogans such as NEVER AGAIN and NEVER FORGET. Then, people forget. And the whole process starts again. That is the human condition.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 11:41 AM

Look, you bunch of Islamophobes.

Just because the attacker has a Muslim name does not mean he is a Muslim. He is without doubt a member of Cricklewood's famously violent Amish community who happens to have a Muslim name.

Clearly this incident represents yet another episode in the long running Amish-Jewish feud - aka the "Bagel Wars" - which started when an Amish farmer in his pony and trap performed a drive-by attack on a Jewish bakery. Several bagels were rendered inedible during the attack.

As someone else has pointed out, it is not possible for a Muslim to be accused, let alone be found guilty, of a faith hate attack. Muslims are protected people, as decreed by Ken Al-Livingstone (soon to be ex-Mayor of London), Gordon Al-Broon (soon to be ex-Prime Minister) and George "100 barrels please, Saddam" Al-Galloway.

Posted by: watling at April 30, 2008 12:00 PM

People, you can e-mail the London Metro Police from a link on the article, and make a complaint. I complained that obviously a Mohammedan attacking two Jews is a "faith hate crime." Obviously. Mohammedans hate Jews, it's in the Qur'an, you ignorant fools. Poor Englandistan. 'Bye-Bye once-great Britain, letting itself be conquered by the Barbarians.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 12:12 PM

Here are some more "Asians" doing what they do best.

Posted by: watling at April 30, 2008 12:14 PM

have_mercy writes:
"I doubt that many have the moral courage to examine my thoughts without simply dismissing them as anti-Semitism. It had to be said."

Who knows, you'd need an accurate poll to determine
of "many" is true, but I read your thoughts and I
can tell you I think similar thoughts and I am Jewish. You Christian? I could probably ask why
so many denominations leaders have gone all
anti-Israel or some such, but suffice to say that
just because some jerk has a loudspeaker doesn't
mean he speaks for everyone.

Still, you are right, there is a lot of troubling
anti-Christian feeling among Jews which I don't
like, and will challenge.

Posted by: root_cause at April 30, 2008 12:53 PM

have_mercy, there is some truth to what you write, but also an over-generalization. Many Jews feel very close to Christians. I am one of them. I sense genuine love and support from so many Christians. Those anti-Israel liberal Christian denominations and those Jews on the left with no love for Israel and disdain for the Christian supporters of Israel -- they need our prayers for their hearts to be changed and their eyes opened.

Posted by: Rahman bin Rahman at April 30, 2008 1:36 PM

darcy

"In the UK the BBC will not even mention the Islamic link."

"But you can bet they'd be thrilled if they could mention a Christian link".

I quite agree, it would be Headline national news but has it been reported anywhere in the national MSM?

Posted by: Fred at April 30, 2008 1:50 PM

darcy - I find it odd that Jews seem willing to quietly sit by and ignore islamic persecution while victims of the Nazi regime are still alive to serve as reminders of what can happen. I marvel that Jews who hold places of power in academe, the media, science, etc. can watch this happen without taking action. I have no personal connections with the Jewish faith, I am not an ethnic Jew, nor do I have Jewish relatives. I do have a deep admiration for many Jewish people I am friends with, others whom I have worked with, and a profound and genuine appreciation for the many contributions Jews have made to our way of life and our culture. Hitler has only been dead 63 years. Thousands of his victims still draw breath. How can they (and we) forget so soon?

Posted by: MP at April 30, 2008 3:27 PM

so a "man" committed this crime.. did they mention he was "Asian"?

Posted by: Ummah Gummah at April 30, 2008 4:10 PM

"Hitler has only been dead 63 years. Thousands of his victims still draw breath. How can they (and we) forget so soon?"
Posted by: MP April 30, 2008 3:27 PM
== == == == == ==

But this is being done by members of a recognized RELIGION, don't ya see; we don't want to be seen criticizing a RELIGION now, do we? We have to RESPECT other cultures and their interesting ways of seeing the world.

And besides, as the police so sincerely point out in this case, it's not like this individual Muslim was targeting these particular Jews BECAUSE they were Jews; he probably couldn't even tell from their beaver hats and prayer shawls and ringlets that they WERE Jewish. Right? Poor Muslim fellow probably forgot to take his meds this week...

(And the final clincher: just as whites can't be victims of racism {but are always GUILTY of racism even when they're unaware of it}, neither can Muslims commit racist hate-crimes {even though they are always VICTIMS of racism by any and all non-Muslims worldwide}. You see? So easy even a cop on the beat can make the determination!)

Posted by: A_Nonny_Mouse at April 30, 2008 4:43 PM

Hitler has only been dead 63 years. Thousands of his victims still draw breath. How can they (and we) forget so soon?

Posted by: MP at April 30, 2008 3:27 PM

Because people are stupid. That's why.

Not us on JW and DW, mind you. But, a huge amount of people are just plain stupid.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 6:47 PM

More "Asians" getting up to mischief.

Posted by: watling at April 30, 2008 6:47 PM

More "Asians" getting up to mischief.

Posted by: watling at April 30, 2008 6:47 PM

Good Grief. DEPORT the Mohammedans, stupid England.

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 6:50 PM

And still more.

Posted by: watling at April 30, 2008 6:52 PM

Link posted by watling, above, The Perps are "Asian." (code, meaning "Muslim"):

Teenager beaten-up in park

A mother has condemned young thugs who robbed and beat her teenage son and left him naked in a park.

David Procter, 16, was forced to strip and hand over jewellery and his mobile phone, before being viciously punched and kicked in the head and body.

His three attackers also set two dogs on him and he was bitten on the ear.

The youngster, who suffers from asthma, was left with serious facial injuries, including a broken nose, fractured cheekbone and broken teeth.

A passing motorist draped a blanket around him and took him to Bradford Royal Infirmary for treatment.

Detectives are investigating the "unusual" incident.

David's mother, Julie Procter, said she could not believe what the attackers had done to her son when she saw his injuries in hospital.

She said: "It was bad enough David being beaten up and robbed, but then to take all his clothes and leave him there was beyond belief. All they left him with was a little eye stud."

He had been treated at BRI for chest pains brought on by his asthma and had set off to walk to his father's home in Holme Wood when the attack happened, at around 1am last Sunday (April 20).

David said: "I was at the entrance to Lister Park. I saw a young Asian lad and asked him for directions. He whistled two others over and they offered to take me in a car. I thought something was a bit dodgy and I said I would walk. When I turned to go they started on me."

The teenager said he was forced to hand over his mobile phone and items of jewellery.

He was then made to strip off all his clothes.

But when he tried to hand over a gold chain he had to rip it from his neck to get it free.

"One of them said: I wanted it all together' and they started beating me up," said David. "One lad punched me twice in the face, knocking me to the ground. All three then just started kicking me in the side and the face.

"I was covering my face up. I was frightened and in pain. Then they set the dogs on me. I just wanted it to end and to go home. They didn't say anything while they were beating me. Then they just walked off and left me on the ground."

He added: "They need locking up. If it has happened to me, it will happen to somebody else. One of the nurses told me it happens quite often in that area."

Police took David back to the park so he could identify the place the attack happened. He has also given a statement and had his injuries photographed.

Detective Inspector Gerry O'Shea, of Bradford South CID, said it was a highly unusual type of crime.

"The stealing of the clothes is quite bizarre and using dogs in the crime is unusual in itself.

"It is being actively investigated and we are looking at a number of inquiries, which includes checking CCTV in the park.

"We urge anyone with information to contact the investigating officer, PC Louise Matthews, of Bradford South Police, on 0845 6060606, or Crimestoppers, anonymously, on 0800 555 111."

One of the robbers was aged 16 or 17, slim, 5ft 9ins tall, with short dark hair and spoke with an English/Asian accent. Another was aged about 17 and 5ft 9ins tall. The third suspect was about 18, slightly taller than the others, slim, spoke with an English/Asian accent and wore an orange and black horizontally-striped jumper. He had the two Staffordshire Bull Terrier-type dogs on leads.

Mrs Procter said: "I want to thank the person who took David to hospital. These thugs had beaten him black and blue and left him without a stitch of clothing."

By Steve Wright

11:03am Friday 25th April 2008

Posted by: darcy at April 30, 2008 6:57 PM

I know the area well: my daughter's student flat was in Golders Green. The area is very popular with Jews, and I would have thought was probably the largest Jewish area in the country. On a Friday evening there would have been very large numbers of them in their orthodox dress going home for the sabbath (I think they are not supposed to travel on the sabbath so it is important to be home first).

If you knifed 20 random people in the area at that time, I guess 19 of them would be Jews. I even know the two roads mentioned: they are both quiet residential roads with nothing in the way of pubs or cafes on them. I can't think of any reason to be there unless you were looking for a couple of Jews to knife, on a quiet side street away from the throngs on Golders Green Road. And the local police would have been fully aware of that.

Random? You're joking.

Posted by: Paul at April 30, 2008 7:02 PM

Perhaps people should write in to the 'Hendon Times' and remind them about a January 26 2008 op-ed in the Iranian daily Kayhan, by the paper's editor, Hossein Shariatmadari, who is close to Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei: this op ed essentially called on all Muslims everywhere to attack whatever Jews happened to be within their reach.

I quote:

"But aren't most of the sensitive centers of the Zionists, of the Americans, and of some European states that support Israel already situated within the arms' reach of the Muslims? And aren't the Zionists {i.e. Jews} [vulnerable] and located within arms' reach of the Muslims at the four corners of the earth? What human and legal basis can prevent an attack on these centers AND PEOPLE {my emphasis added}?...
"Every time a movement rises up against the Zionist occupier and acts to liberate its homeland, America and its allies accuse it of terrorism, and every state that supports these movements is punished.

"Why wouldn't the Muslims act the same way, and attack all the supporters of the Zionists {i.e. Jews} everywhere in the world?"

Perhaps Mr Mohamed Jama Ahmed is merely carrying out orders. And note that at age 37 he could hardly be described as a 'youth' or as a young hothead. 37 is approaching middle age.

The Shariatmadari op ed, translated by MEMRI,

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD182808

was cross-posted by Mr Spencer right here at jihadwatch:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019723.php#comments

In the shadow of this ugly act of aggression by a Muslim against Jews, against the background of continuing Iranian Muslim antisemitic incitement of the worst kind: I appeal to all my fellow jihadwatchers who share a concern for Israel and are painfully aware of the rising tide of Muslim hatred of Zion and of Jews, as also of the terrible paradox of the self-hating Jew, and of the equally awful fact that many seemingly well-meaning Christians have gobbled up Muslim Arab Big Lies and have become haters of Zion and antisemites by any other name.

Here in Australia it is the first of May already. This day is, I gather, from reading Jerusalem Post this morning, also Holocaust/Shoah Remembrance Day.

Perhaps this day, as also on the anniversary of modern Israel's Independence, we jihadwatchers around the world should all screw up our courage and - if we possess a Star of David - don it and wear it, visibly, all day, in public, wherever we are, as a sign of solidarity with our Jewish neighbours and fellow citizens, and with the Jewish state of Israel. (One might, if so inclined, put a suitable bumper-sticker on one's car, or don a suitable T-shirt).

It would take some considerable courage to do so, in parts of France or of the UK. But we have got to start doing it. The antisemitism/antizionism is getting so bad in some quarters, especially on university campuses and in certain churches and church organisations (alas! shame!) that every person of goodwill needs to publicly challenge it.

Shy Guy, other Jewish posters, Marisol - do you know of a reputable site, online, from which I may obtain a good quality Star of David necklace, brooch, bumper-sticker or T-shirt, or a T-shirt declaring such things as 'I love Israel', or the Israeli flag, or a bumpersticker proclaiming Am Yisrael chai?

I already, quite often, wear a cross, as a conscious act of anti-dhimmitude. But I would cheerfully alternate that with a Star of David.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at April 30, 2008 7:22 PM

Further comment:

Attacks EXACTLY like this have been happening in eretz Israel for more than 100 years - Muslim approaches randomly selected person whom Muslim supposes to be a Jew, whips out concealed knife, and stabs.

There have been a couple of cases where persons who LOOKED like Jews, but weren't, were targeted by Muslim assassins - in one case, an Italian pro-'Palestinian' Useful Idiot got stabbed to death in Jerusalem ; in another case an Arabised dhimmi Christian was mistaken for a Jew and assassinated (profuse and insincere apologies were offered by the jihadi assassin once the 'mistaken identity' was revealed, since at the moment, the illusion of pan-'Palestinian' "we're pooor little Arabs together, Christians and Muslims, members of one body, all being persecuted by the EEEVIL JOOOZ' still has to be maintained for external Useful Idiot consumption, despite the relentless bullying of dhimmi Christians by Muslims within the 'Palestinian' Arab population.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at April 30, 2008 7:57 PM

MP:

"Jews worldwide should be raising hell about assaults like these, yet most of them choose to pretend it is not happening."

Do you think that attacks on Jews are a new phenomenon, MP? Do you think that they died out with Hitler, and that Muslims are solely the problem? If so, then you are very wrong.

Jews in the UK have suffered insults, threats and attacks for centuries. The problem never goes away. The Muslims are simply the latest protagonists. We are targets for neo-Nazis and left-wing moonbats, as well as religious oddballs and ordinary run-of-the-mill bigots. And I’m not just talking about attacks on individuals, but on schools, shuls, businesses, cemeteries - every facet of Jewish life.

Do you really think that “most” Jews “pretend that this isn’t happening”? On the contrary, we are only too aware. Have you ever seen the level of security at a Jewish school? Or at any Jewish public event? There isn’t a shul in Britain that doesn’t have a security team, and some have security procedures before and after services.

If you want to experience the scale of the problem, spend a day walking around with a yarmulke on and see how people’s attitudes towards you change. It’ll be an eye opener, I promise.

"Jewish leaders and Jews in the public eye need to make some noise now. If you do not protect yourselves who will?"

And what will “making noise” do? Most people, I’m sorry to say, don’t care about rockets falling on Israel and calls for it to be wiped off the map. They are hardly likely to be moved by accounts of everyday anti-Semitism, even a violent attack like this. Sure, they'll agree that it's an horrendous crime, but say too much and they'll complain about hysterical Jews playing the victim card again.

But don't worry - Jews are well aware of the need for self-protection. The Community Security Trust does an excellent job in the UK, both providing and advising on security and helping victims. In fact, unless it was a case like this, I think most people would rather go to the CST than the police.

Posted by: Matamoros at April 30, 2008 8:37 PM

Must have been one of those "moderate Muslims" we here so much about?.

Posted by: Clifford at April 30, 2008 9:32 PM

Inverted reality:

While Jews are constantly attacked and have to live in fear of terror, the morally superior jitterbugs from LGF yammer on about 'genocide', and work themselves into a frenzy over an essay on Gates of Vienna pondering the question of genocide as a response to Islamization in Europe.

No Muslim has been hurt, so far. But a lot of Jews and a lot more indigenous Europeans have been hurt by the large presence of Islamic invaders.

The dreaded 'backlash' is inevitable. If the Muhammedan cult succeeds in conquering Europe or Israel, there will be genocide on an unprecedented scale. The Koranimals have a mandate from Allah and have every intention to act on it.

If Europe manages to overcome its self-hatred and doubt, we could possibly see mass-expulsions and the dismantling of Muhammedan power within the next ten to 20 years. Europe does seem to demonstrate that it has almost no ability, at this time, to defend itself culturally or demographically. But we can still hope that there are more and more of us not willing to sit idly by and let it go the way of other failed civilizations.

However, the hysterical reaction of the lizards is idiotic: the BNP and the Flaams Belang are not yesterdays Nazi's and nobody calls for genocide (except the Muslims)

Europe, and Israel has every right to defend itself, and since Muslims are not Jews we must anticipate that any reaction resulting in mass-expulsion would result in bloody uprisings and burning cities.

Its too late in the day to stick the head in the sand and pretend to be morally superior while at the same time advocating flower power stupidity.

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at April 30, 2008 9:37 PM

No faith hate involved ? My ass..

Posted by: proud-hindu at May 1, 2008 3:26 AM

A Muslim believer against two non believers is a tie. In a tie situation Muslims should win, no? Aren't they practicing Sharia Law in UK?

Posted by: Lebanese at May 1, 2008 9:58 AM

The article itself is well written. The writer does a good job at sticking the facts and remaining objective. I don't think he is slanting anything. Whether or not his sources are slanting anything is a different story.

That being said, the attack itself is appalling.

Posted by: sh217 at May 1, 2008 11:53 AM

Thanks for your comment Matamoros. While I am not an historian, I continually read history and am well aware of the sorry story of European anti-semitism from the Middle Ages on. I have been fortunate enough to be able to travel and follow the news, so I am also aware that Jews have been assaulted in places like France for the past 15 or 20 years just for being Jews. I know many American Jews. They NEVER have discussed the problem of current violence against European Jewry in my hearing. The holacaust is discussed frequently, but they make no mention of the current Islamic threat. Many are politically quite far to the left, and are either uncomfortable deviating from the "party line" vis a vis Palestine, or choose not to feel threatened by the growth of militant Islam. As for making noise, we simply can not make too much. Propaganda needs to be iterative and constant. In the U.S., Jewish media types abound in much greater numbers than the % of Jews in the American population would indicate. They are silent on this problem. Spielberg can make films on WWII, but the closest he has come to addressing this issue is "MUNICH" which strives very hard to be even-handed. I was unaware of the CST. I'm a firm believer in shooting back, if not in shooting first, and firmly hope that those involved have the means to return fire. In England, I rather doubt it. Cordially, M.P.

Posted by: MP at May 1, 2008 11:59 AM

Perhaps an intensive course in a suitable art of self-defence/ unarmed combat (karate/ kung fu/ jiujitsu/ judo/ or the homegrown and thus culturally appropriate krav maga) should be combined with the usual preparations for bar mitzvah and bat mitzvah for all young Jews, everywhere.

In the USA at least the young people could also learn how to use a firearm.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 1, 2008 5:22 PM

I would not say Matamoras is talking complete cr** just a high % of cr**. I do not pretend there is no anti-Semitism in the UK but until 10 years ago I worked in one of the main Jewish areas of a major city and therefore know more than most. Also I am a historian and while I cannot spare the time now to refute everything there are a few quotes I would give from history and my own experience.

Historical point Jews were driven out of Britain in the 14th century but Oliver Cromwell permitted them to return 250 years later. In the 19th century the Jewish community paid for the excellent statue of him that now stands outside Parliament.

The last major wave of Jewish immigration was from Russia in the late 19th century when they decided to reduce the Jewish population by driving out a third and absorbing a third. It has been calculated that had the proportion of Russian Jews who came to Britain stayed Jewish there would be three times as many Jews as there are today. My point? Nobody terrorised them or bothered them much so they married and were accepted into the majority population and just stopped being Jews.

One Israeli diplomat to a colleague in the 1960’s as quoted in his memoir “An Israeli at the Court of St James”. I cannot remember word for word but speaking of British Jews at a reception, “Look at them in places at the top of education, the professions and the arts, the horrors inflicted on Jews in the last 30 years have passed them by".

An elderly Jew who had come to Britain a refugee in the 1930’s said, “When I came to Britain the filth and poverty of the place was appalling, we had nothing like it in Austria but the great compensation was the kindness of the people – it was so real you could almost touch it".

The Police Chief for the Area I worked in “If everyone was as law abiding as the Jews you wouldn’t need a police force”

A colleague 40 years ago. “Get in with the Jews if you do a good job for them they pass you on to their friends and you will never be short of work.

Security. I was responsible for the maintenance of 3 Jewish schools for 15 years and can recall no security problems whatever in that time. If anything there was less vandalism on Jewish Schools but this was down to where they were located as much as anything. Until Dunblane you could wander into ANY British school without hindrance. At Dunblane 12 years ago sex pervert walked into a primary school in a prosperous Scottish town with a bag of handguns and killed about 14 small kids and a teacher before shooting himself. In the aftermath ownership of all modern handguns was banned. Now even our suburban school is like Fort Knox.

It is kept quiet but churches are being attacked too and not by Nazis.

Three of Margaret Thatcher’s twenty senior ministers were Jewish and nobody gave a damn. I may be wrong but I think our present foreign Secretary is Jewish or at least of Jewish stock.

As for testing the water by going around in a yarmulke I wonder if his wife would get the same response if she wore a burka?

I do not doubt that things are worse today but I would put a lot of this down to our old friends the muslims at least in the Jewish area that is closest to me. In the last 25 years mosques and halal food shops have pushed out everyone there, not just Jews.

As to the situation in France I cannot speak for that but not too long ago the BBC broadcast an interview with a leading British Jew who had been there to investigate the rise in anti Semitism. Among other things he said the situation was so bad French Jews were leaving for Israel but the crucial detail was at the very end when he said, “Most of the problem is due to recent immigrants to France of NORTH AFRICAN ORIGIN. I wrote to the BBC and asked why more emphasis had not been given to this and got an anodyne reply.

Conclusion.

We are all having our a**** kicked by the muslims
and for obvious reasons the Jews are getting more than most.

Posted by: Fred at May 1, 2008 5:44 PM

Fred:

“I would not say Matamoras is talking complete cr** just a high % of cr**. I do not pretend there is no anti-Semitism in the UK but until 10 years ago I worked in one of the main Jewish areas of a major city and therefore know more than most.

Really? I live in a Muslim-majority part of London, but I wouldn’t presume to claim that I know what life is like for them. Please don’t presume to tell me about anti-Semitism, Fred - unless you’re Jewish and have been on the receiving end, you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

"Also I am a historian"

A trained, academic historian, Fred, or just someone who reads a few history books? (There’s a difference, as MP points out above.) Because historians are trained to support their arguments with documentary evidence, rather than simply passing on what someone said to them forty years ago. The anecdotes that you repeated may be of interest to your speaking club, but they’re not actually evidence of anything.

"Three of Margaret Thatcher’s twenty senior ministers were Jewish and nobody gave a damn. I may be wrong but I think our present foreign Secretary is Jewish or at least of Jewish stock."

And what exactly does this prove? Are you suggesting that the presence of Jewish Cabinet ministers indicates a dearth of anti-Semitism? Hardly. Leslie Hore-Belisha was in the Cabinets of the late Thirties, and at the same time Mosley’s Blackshirts were terrorising and attacking Jews all over the East End. I really don’t understand what point you’re trying to make with this - again it has no relevance at all.

“It has been calculated that had the proportion of Russian Jews who came to Britain stayed Jewish there would be three times as many Jews as there are today. My point? Nobody terrorised them or bothered them much so they married and were accepted into the majority population and just stopped being Jews."

Oh Fred, don’t talk such rot man. “Nobody bothered them much”? Ever read Daniel Deronda? Do you think that George Eliot just dreamed up the prevalent anti-Jewish mood in Victorian Britain that she described in that book? Far from dissipating anti-Jewish feeling, the migration of Russian Jews increased it. Highlighting the religious-based slurs against Benjamin Disraeli, A.N Wilson in his book The Victorians writes:

“Such anti-Semitism would become more general in the coming decades after the huge influx to London of poor Russian Jews during the 1880s”.

Support for the Blackshirts in the Thirties didn’t just materialise out of thin air. Oswald Mosley’s rants tapped in to a well of contemporary anti-Jewish feeling that had built up over decades (and had been present for a millennia.) In 1945, George Orwell wrote his famous essay on anti-Semitism in Britain. In it, he acknowledged that resentment of Jews that had long existed in the country (or was Orwell talking “complete cr**” too, Fred?) He wrote:

““The Jew who grew up in Whitechapel took it for granted that he would be assaulted, or at least hooted at, if he ventured into one of the Christian slums nearby.”

“If, as I suggest, prejudice against Jews has always been pretty widespread in England, there is no reason to think that Hitler has genuinely diminished it.”

And Orwell, as usual, was right. You describe yourself as “a historian”, Fred. Have you ever read the wartime Mass-Observation diaries that were published in the last few years? Titles like Our Hidden Lives and We Are At War. Take these diary quotes, from Our Hidden Lives:

[p.257]“Husband said this morning that he has only one sorrow about the Nuremberg thugs, and that is that they did not exterminate the Jews before they were stopped at it. Husband went on to say that Jews are parasites”

[p.321]“I begin to wish that we had started the war a bit later, so that Hitler would have exterminated a few more Jews”

[p.509]“It seems all the stories we heard about the concentration camps in Germany were almost all true.. We both agreed that the Jews should be exterminated and that the political prisoners were just fools.”

And so it goes on, and on, including references to Jews being “the scourge of mankind”, and the need to “drop six atomic bombs on Palestine”.

I should point out that the five diarists quoted in the book were just ordinary Britons, randomly chosen by Mass-Observation to record their thoughts and experiences for posterity. Four of the five either made blatant remarks like those above, or recorded others making such statements. And you still want to claim that anti-Semitism in the UK is largely a Muslim problem?

(And if you do, I can provide you with CST statistics on perpetrators that will refute that).

Yes, Islamists ARE a growing threat to Britain's Jews, but anti-Semitic attitudes - and the violence and abuse that sadly accompanies them - have long existed right across the political, social and racial divide.

Posted by: Matamoros at May 2, 2008 9:54 PM