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Whoops. From our You-Can't-Make-This-Stuff-Up File. "Iran clerics query president's religious remarks," from Reuters, May 7:
TEHRAN - Iran's president has alarmed some conservative clerics with remarks suggesting he believed a mystical Shi'ite religious leader backed his government, newspapers reported on Wednesday.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who came to power in 2005 with the votes of Iran's devout poor, has in the past courted controversy for his very public devotion to the return of the vanished 12th Imam, or Mahdi, a figure he regularly refers to in his speeches.
While the return of the 12th Imam to herald an era of justice is a core Shi'ite belief, some critics say he has encouraged "superstitious" practices surrounding the tenet.
"If the president means that the 12th Imam is supporting the government, we should say that it is wrong," conservative cleric Gholamreza Mesbahi-Moghaddam, who is also a member of parliament, was quoted by the daily Etemad-e Melli as saying.
Mesbahi-Moghaddam was referring to a speech Ahmadinejad made a month ago at a Shi'ite shrine in Mashhad, eastern Iran, and broadcast on state TV on Monday. The BBC monitored the address.
The president's Mashhad speech began with an appeal for the 12th Imam's speedy return and was peppered with references to him. But the president denied what he described as accusations that say he has claimed a particular relationship with the Imam.
"Surely the 12th Imam is not supporting the current 20 percent inflation in Iran," the cleric said, referring to a popular complaint -- Ahmadinejad's failure to curb price rises.
According to Shi'ite Muslim teaching, Abul-Qassem Mohammad, the 12th leader whom Shi'ites consider descended from the prophet Mohammed, disappeared in the year 941 but will return at the end of time to lead an era of Islamic justice.
Devout politician
"Ahmadinejad should think in a more worldly way. He should manage the country. People are not expecting (religious) advice from the president," another conservative cleric, Ali Asgari, from Mashhad, was quoted by Kargozaran daily as saying.
Ahmadinejad, Iran's first non-clerical president in more than a quarter of a century, has had other run-ins with the religious establishment. Several top clerics scolded him last month for blaming Iran's economic problems on "mafias".
One analyst said some in the clerical establishment were wary of Ahmadinejad who represents a new breed of devout politicians with less ties to the Islamic Republic's traditional clerical class, thus potentially undermining their authority.
Nevertheless, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has the final say in all state matters under Iran's system of clerical rule, has lavished praise on Ahmadinejad.
In his Mashhad speech, Ahmadinejad said Iran had made nuclear progress with the 12th Imam's help.
"Iran has become nuclear before their eyes, despite their will... We behold the hands of Imam," said the president, who denies Western charges that Tehran wants to make atomic bombs.
You can't hug your Mahdi with nuclear arms.
Posted by Marisol at May 7, 2008 8:00 PM
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For people that claim they worship only "Allah", Muslims have an extrordinary capacity to worship certain people in all but name. Muhammad is called a perfect person. This madhi was not a prophet, because Mohammad was supposedly the last, but he is nevertheless worshipped like a God or prophet. Amazing how semantics can fool people.
http://bravenewsworld.blogspot.com
Posted by: Max Publius![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at May 7, 2008 8:50 PM
Well if the Presidential thing doesn't work out for Ahmad, then he can always campaign for the 12th Imam. Oh - ha - he's already doing that. Silly me.
Posted by: champ at May 7, 2008 9:09 PM
"Ahmadinejad, Iran's first non-clerical president in more than a quarter of a century, has had other run-ins with the religious establishment. Several top clerics scolded him last month for blaming Iran's economic problems on "mafias".
It's funny, the reference to the mafia reminded me of the story of the "wiseguys" who went to a local business to propose an "insurance policy" to the owners that would prevent any "problems" cropping up each day. When asked by the business owner as to who would do such a thing to his business that would necessitate the purchase of said "insurance, the reply was simple, "Us".
Achmadinnerjacket is the Islamic equivalent of Joe Pesci in "Goodfellas". And yes, I do find him funny, he makes me laugh, he is a clown to me.
"You can't hug your Mahdi with nuclear arms".
Marisol, you owe me 1.00. this line made me spit my single malt scotch right out my nose. You little minx, you. Stop being so darned funny!
"Kuffirs of the world, Unite!"
"Islam, abusing women and children since 622AD"
at May 7, 2008 9:18 PM
"'Surely the 12th Imam is not supporting the current 20 percent inflation in Iran, the cleric said."
From the article.
Uh, oh. This guy's in trouble, now. Didn't he know that humor is not allowed in Islam?
Posted by: Eastview at May 7, 2008 9:26 PM
I did a search for the 12th Imam, and found this: Iran’s President and the Politics of the Twelfth Imam
Excerpt:
In a speech on November 16th,(2005) Ahmadinejad spoke of his belief in the return of the Twelfth Imam. One of the differences between Sunni and Shi’ite Islam is that the latter, who dominate Iran and form the majority in Iraq, believe that Allah shielded or hid Muhammad al-Mahdi as the Twelfth Imam until the end of time. Shi’ites expect the Twelfth Imam, which Jews and Christians would recognize as a messianic figure, (count me out) to return to save the world when it had descended into chaos. Shi’ite orthodoxy has it that humans are powerless to encourage the Twelfth Imam to return. However, in Iran a group called the Hojjatieh believe that humans can stir up chaos to encourage him to return. Ayatollah Khomeini banned the group in the early 1980s because they rejected one of the primary commitments of the Iranian revolution: the concept of Vilayat-i Faqih (Guardianship of the Jurist). In other words, they opposed the notion of an Islamic republic because it would hinder the Twelfth Imam’s return on account of it being too just and peaceful. Today, in addition to the possibility of Ahmadinejad himself being a member (or a former member), the group has connections to Qom ultraconservative cleric Mesbah Yazdi whom Iranians frequently refer to as the "crazed one" and the "crocodile." Four of the twenty-one new cabinet ministers are purportedly Hojjatieh members. Some reports state that cabinet ministers must sign a formal pledge of support for the Twelfth Imam.
Yes, the soon to be nuclear lunatics run the asylum.
at May 7, 2008 9:38 PM
Surely the 12th Imam would only support 12% inflation.
Any idiot knows that, Mahmoud!
Yell down the well and ask him.
Hello-o-o-oh?
12th Imam-am-am-am?
That the world is allowing this gang of psychotic cranks to even approach a nuke says worse about the world than about these gibbering Mohammedan baboons.
Baboons-ooons-oons-oons.
Posted by: profitsbeard at May 7, 2008 9:52 PM
Yell down the well and ask him.
Hello-o-o-oh?
12th Imam-am-am-am?
That the world is allowing this gang of psychotic cranks to even approach a nuke says worse about the world than about these gibbering Mohammedan baboons.
Baboons-ooons-oons-oons.
Posted by: profitsbeard
LOL!!!!
Posted by: champ at May 7, 2008 9:56 PM
"....return of the vanished 12th Imam...."
There's no returning from a fall like that - most wells are very deep.
Posted by: champ at May 7, 2008 10:05 PM
Of course the 12th Imam will back him. Ahmadinejad is Mini-Me to Dr.Evil-Imam-anti-Christ Himself.
With all the jokes included.
at May 7, 2008 10:24 PM
Whose your Mahdi?
I say that the secret is out--after ages of occultation, The Hidden Imam has BEEN REVEALED
Posted by: John Cas
H U G H
F I T Z G E R A L D !!
at May 7, 2008 10:33 PM
Ahmadinejad's revelation as to the socio-political global domination of Islam apparently does not sit well with the mullahs, at least stated publically, with all the world to hear.
But is anyone listening?
Posted by: awake at May 7, 2008 10:48 PM
"publicly"
Posted by: awake at May 7, 2008 10:50 PM
"If the president means that the 12th Imam is supporting the government, we should say that it is wrong," conservative cleric Gholamreza Mesbahi-Moghaddam, who is also a member of parliament, was quoted by the daily Etemad-e Melli as saying.
So the 12th Imam doesn't support the government, but Allah does? Why is there even a mullah-led government if it is NOT supported by the imam? What kind of Shiites are they?
Posted by: PMK at May 7, 2008 10:55 PM
You do have to laugh. The poor Persians...Sad is it not that the Persians, once a mighty people of empire builders, has been reduced to this...asking some mystical guy at the bottom of a well for advice on how to keep inflation down.
And who can the world thank for this?...Islam. If there was not a more clear example of what this faith does to nations you only need to look at Persia for you answer.
Posted by: greatcometof1577
at May 7, 2008 11:01 PM
Posted by: greatcometof1577 at May 7, 2008 11:01 PM
Formerly known as Persia. Now simply another cesspool in Islamistan.
Regards.
Posted by: awake at May 7, 2008 11:06 PM
For people that claim they worship only "Allah", Muslims have an extrordinary capacity to worship certain people in all but name. Muhammad is called a perfect person.
Posted by: Max Publius
Plus the Shia in particular seem to have an awful lot of "holy sites" and "holy cities". Sometimes it seems like half the towns in Iran are "holy sites". What went on in these places to make them "holy", heaven only knows. In addition, the ether is infested with hordes of jinns, angels, and other spirits. Islam isn't the pure monotheism it's cracked up to be.
at May 7, 2008 11:19 PM
Mr A. had better watch his back.
I have not by any means comprehensively studied the political history of Islamised societies.
But that which I *have* read, gives the distinct impression that succession very frequently took place by assassination.
Here is C S Forester summing up the nature of Mohammedan polities, in simple words capable of being understood by intelligent upper primary and lower high school children, in his book 'The Barbary Pirates' (1953), pp. 5-6:
"The homelands of these people - the four North African countries of Morocco, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli - were known as the Barbary States. They were parts of the vast Mohammedan Empire which at one time had threatened to conquer the entire world. Later, this empire fell to pieces of its own weight, *largely because it had never been able to build any system of government except a simple tyranny* [my emphasis added].
"The Arab Mohammedan conquest of North Africa had not been very successful. Local generals and governors and religious leaders managed to set themselves up as independent. At the same time they posed as dutiful subjects of the central government at Constantinople. *But their rulers did not have an easy life, even if they lived in the midst of great wealth and enjoyed unlimited power." [emphasis added].
"The Dey or Bey, Pasha or Emperor, whatever the local ruler called himself, lived only as long as he could remain more powerful than his rivals and enemies. The moment his grasp weakened he could expect to be strangled, and to be succeeded by someone else eager to take his place."
He is focusing on the Barbary states, but if one looks at, say, the Ottomans, or the Islamic occupation of Spain, or Mogul India...or Islamised Persia...one sees exactly the same principle - or lack of principles - in relentless operation.
at May 7, 2008 11:26 PM
Let's imagine for a moment, just for argument's sake, the 12th Imam stuff is true. Creepy universe, no, in which a guy like Ahmadinejad (or the mullahs) would know more about the cosmos than Pericles, Aristotle, Caesar, Aquinas, Kant, Washington, Adams, Franklin, Hamilton or Lincoln? It wouldn't redound to the deity's credit, now would it? That's why it's false. Ah, what a shame the Persians didn't stick to Zoroastrianism.
Posted by: Wellington at May 7, 2008 11:28 PM
For a thousand years muslims have been making pilgrimages to the Jamkaran well to drop in messages to Mahdi. Even Beasty Boy Amahdinijad has done so.
If the well is dry, there must be a huge pile of messages at the bottom. And who knows what other historically interesting objects might be down there. I bet in the entire history of Islam, that not one person has gone to the bottom of that well by rope, to see what was really down there...
at May 8, 2008 12:10 AM
A wishing well? The 12th Mahdi?
If wishes were horses, then Persians would ride.
Posted by: Dsinc at May 8, 2008 12:39 AM
"Surely the 12th Imam is not supporting the current 20 percent inflation in Iran," the cleric said
Why wouldn't the Mahdi support 20 percent inflation? He is only coming back when chaos and mayhem rule the day. Seems like Ahmedinijiad should encourage runaway inflation (and intra-Islamic warfare, and increased internal strife throughout Iran, etc.) in order to hasten the arrival of the Mahdi.
And if they were all over there, with no weapons to reach us over here, I wouldn't see that as necessarily a bad thing.
Posted by: special_guest at May 8, 2008 2:12 AM
"...there must be a huge pile of messages at the bottom. And who knows what other historically interesting objects might be down there. I bet in the entire history of Islam, that not one person has gone to the bottom of that well by rope, to see what was really down there...
Posted by: duh_swami
I bet you're right. And I'd also bet that any proposal to do just that, or even lower a camera with lights to get a glimpse of what mysteries might lie at the bottom of this wonderful magic well, would be met with expressions of horror, followed by a fatwa.
I wonder if low light, high resolution satellite imagery is good enough to take a sneak peak down the hole when no one is looking.
Posted by: Eastview at May 8, 2008 2:17 AM
Make that "...sneak peek"...
Posted by: Eastview at May 8, 2008 2:18 AM
The idea behind duh_swami's comment, of sending something down the hole to see what's really there, comes naturally to curious westerners. But it won't be allowed, for obvious reasons. This would far riskier than, for example, church authorities permitting radiocarbon dating studies to be performed on the Shroud of Turin. Christianity survived that, minus a bit of mystery that had grown up around the Shroud. But Twelver Shi'ism very tightly binds itself to tales of the Occluded 12'th Imam and his home at the bottom of the well. Publishing pictures showing nothing but 1000 years of trash at the bottom of that hole, plus maybe a few lizards and who knows what other disgusting forms of life, would be religious suicide. These guys may be delusional, but even Nutjob isn't stupid enough to go for this. It won't happen.
Posted by: Eastview at May 8, 2008 2:56 AM
Is the 12th Imam like the 12th Man at Texas A&M football games? If so, then Go Aggies!!!
Posted by: Bingo at May 8, 2008 5:27 AM
"Publishing pictures showing nothing but 1000 years of trash at the bottom of that hole, plus maybe a few lizards and who knows what other disgusting forms of life, would be religious suicide."
The question is: why? Do they really think there is a human body laying (or sitting and biding its time) at the bottom of the well? Have they never heard of decomposition? Surely Allah is capable of rematerializing the imam when it is his time to rise again. Where is their faith in Allah? Christianity survived the Shroud of Turin and many other hoaxes because the Christian faith didn't (and still doesn't) depend on earthly manifestations to sustain itself.
Posted by: PMK at May 8, 2008 8:16 AM
People!
Isn't it obvious? This is no ordinary well. It's a portal into another dimension of reality, a gateway to Paradise disguised as a black hole. The discerning know this for a fact, and Allah is All Tricky.
Posted by: Lex at May 8, 2008 9:07 AM
Lex,
Thanks for clearing that up!
Now how do we get the jihadists (sorry, State Dept.) to use the well as their gateway, rather than using the blood of non-believers?
Message to Muslim jihadists: Go jump in the well!
Posted by: PMK at May 8, 2008 10:11 AM
Some believe the Mahdi is the anti-Christ from the Bible.
See al-madhi and the antichrist website. Also note that they believe the False Prophet of the Bible is likely to be isa of islam.
http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/index.html
Certainly, it is almost unbelievable that the Bible explicitly says that some will be beheaded for their testimony for Jesus (the implication being that they are to be beheaded by the government of the antichrist).
Revelation 20
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
at May 8, 2008 12:08 PM
Why would someone that supposedly "wonderful" live in the bottom of a well? Wouldn't that someone live in a palace or something?
Someone should sneak to that well and pour a flammable liquid down it, then throw a match. Be a pretty nice bonfire with all those pieces of paper in it.
Posted by: gymgal at May 8, 2008 12:35 PM
"Ahmadinejad should think in a more worldly way. He should manage the country. People are not expecting (religious) advice from the president," another conservative cleric, Ali Asgari, from Mashhad, was quoted by Kargozaran daily as saying.An Islamic regime, and people aren't expecting (religious) advice from its president? What planet are you on?
Mahmoud, this dude is being un-Islamic. Killhim!
Posted by: Infidel Pride at May 8, 2008 3:35 PM
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