| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Dhimmi Watch | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog | Raymond Ibrahim | Robert Spencer |  |
|
|
|||||||||||
|
|
These guys didn't think "jihad" was something bad
As intelligence agencies try to recruit Muslims, they don't want to give them the impression that they're against jihad!
And of course they are making no effort whatsoever to determine what kind of "jihad" the applicants think is just great.
"Intel agencies seek help recruiting immigrants," by Pamela Hess for AP, May 16 (thanks to the Constantinopolitan Irredentist):
McLEAN, VA (AP) — The U.S. is its own worst enemy when it comes to the desperately important task of recruiting immigrants as spies, analysts and translators in the war on terror, new Americans are telling intelligence officials. The government's policies raise suspicions and fear in the immigrants' home countries and disturb potential recruits here who might otherwise want to help.The U.S. knows it needs the help. At the heart of a Friday summit with immigrant groups was a stark reality: The intelligence agencies lack people who can speak the languages that are needed most, such as Arabic, Farsi and Pashtu. More importantly, the agencies lack people with the cultural awareness that enables them to grasp the nuances embedded in dialect, body language and even street graffiti.
At the suburban Virginia summit, not far from the CIA and National Counterterrorism Center, officials gathered more than a dozen representatives of recent immigrant and other ethnic groups to get their recruiting assistance.
"We are going to ask you to open up your communities to us," said Ronald Sanders, an assistant national intelligence director, and the son of an Egyptian immigrant mother.
The officials got an earful in return — about immigration and hiring rules and foreign policies that make life harder in immigrants' old countries. The intelligence agencies' own practices also came under criticism: extraordinary rendition, holding prisoners at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, harsh interrogation practices that some say amount to torture.
"Basically they've scared people," said Amina Khan, of the Association of Pakistani Professionals and an attorney formerly with the U.S. Energy Department.
Immigrants "have always seen and regarded the United States as a law-abiding country," Khan said in an interview with The Associated Press. "Now we are the only superpower in the entire world. For us, when we hear things like renditions or Guantanamo Bay, which for many is considered outside the letter of the law, there is an element of fear."
[...]
Some U.S. policies after the 9/11 terrorist attacks made things worse, said Kareem Shora, of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.
"The policy missteps and mistakes tended to alienate the very community they are now trying to approach and work with," Shora said. "The NSA wiretapping, rendition, waterboarding, linking the war in Iraq with the issue of radicalization and the terrorism threat. ... What I ask is that at some point that these conversations address these hard issues."
[...]
The Department of Homeland Security and the FBI are collaborating on a summer internship program to begin to tap that expertise. Twenty college students are coming to Washington, D.C. for 10 weeks. They will get free Arabic classes in the morning at George Washington University and spend the afternoons working in the agencies' intelligence offices.
"We need these people, their expertise, their understanding of culture, of language. We don't have it today and it is a great deficiency," said Charles Allen, a long time CIA officer who is now the Homeland Security Department's intelligence chief. "This will be an enormous augmentation."
U.S. policies have until recently forbidden recruitment of first-generation Americans who have direct family ties abroad, a practice that began after World War II, despite the fact that many code breakers in that conflict were not born in America, said National Intelligence Director Michael McConnell.
[...]
U.S. officials are trying to adjust how they talk about the war on terrorism so as not to alienate Muslims. That adjustment is needed, said Mohammed H. Ali, an imam with a Virginia Muslim community organization.
"I'm concerned about the language used to describe terrorism," he said.
McConnell said he is, too.
"We try not to refer to 'jihad' as something that's bad," McConnell noted, referring to a recent government communications policy.
It's a first and somewhat controversial step toward shaping the language the United States uses to compete with the international messages of al-Qaida. The terror group's messages are increasing: In 2005 it issued about 15 video or audio messages. In 2006, there were 50. In 2007 there were 97. There will probably be even more in 2008, including a fresh message from Osama bin Laden this week.
"We did a good job in the war against Communism. We have not done a halfway decent job of countering the virulence (of al-Qaida) and the message properly," Allen said.
"I never use the term 'global war on terrorism,'" Allen said. "I have never used it publicly, and I don't write it that way either."
"We have so much work to do because countering this ideology is absolutely central to everything that we do. This is our way of countering al-Qaida in the future. If we don't get it right and we don't do the outreach correctly, we will simply lose ground," Allen said.
You can say that again. You are already losing ground so fast, and you don't even realize it.
Posted by Robert at May 16, 2008 6:45 PM
Print this entry
| Email this entry
| Digg this
| del.icio.us
"We try not to refer to 'jihad' as something that's bad," McConnell noted, referring to a recent government communications policy." --
Michael McConnell, National STUPIDITY and IGNORANCE Director.
![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at May 16, 2008 7:05 PM
Please. I was already nauseous.
Posted by: HotSpur at May 16, 2008 7:21 PM
So let me get this straight. Because we have allowed so many muslims, so many mosques, so many islamic organizations into our country, we have to learn their language and their culture so we can fight them?
And they have to "train" US as to what language to use so they will not be offended and may lift a finger to help us defeat the islamists that want to kill us AND them?
Why are the "moderate peace loving muslims" not falling all over themselves to defeat those who would impose the sharia and cover the USA with a burqa. Why must we enlist their help? Why do they not beg us for help?
I think we all know the answers to those questions.
This is insanity. They are playing our government like a fiddle.
Posted by: cumulusnine at May 16, 2008 7:23 PM
Oh boy.
Posted by: Wellington at May 16, 2008 7:30 PM
If we go back a few years ago just before Sept 11,the FBI was slow, buried under a lot of administrative work and the head was so sure that nobody would dare attack the American soil, they were concentrating their efforts in listening to the" intelligence " telling that the attack will take place overseas not here.
Whoever tried to ring the bell was an idiot.
The law did not let the FBI investigate properly the people under suspicion .
The terrorists were using very simple means of communication like audio tapes,books,cd,and because nobody was speaking arabic or farsi ,,,,,they let it go ..
When the cat is not here , the mice start dancing.
Right after Sept 11. and the state of shock for some....the American intelligence entered the world of panic.... and rushed to expand the role of the FBI , CIA and company.In order to do that ASAP. Homeland security hired special agents , gave them a badge and on the road again ......those agents most of them with no education on Islam started an intense program of surveillance, and taping and inquiries.... you named it , you had it......
But after a while they were stuck with thousands of tapes in Arabic that nobody could translate.
and the last and biggest mistake,,, they start hiring Muslim translators ....
I am sure that the FBI knows that the Israelis speaks also Arabic, Christians speak it too.
I have personal knowledge of a guy who before Sept 11 was giving speeches against America and now is the best body of the FBI and translate for them.
Most of the real FBI agents on the ground are educated and honest people but the problem is with all those little guys who think that it is ok to make friends with the Muslims.
Mohamed, Youssi and Fada are delighted when they see this country spending tons of money to watch them. It is draining the economy.
It is time to understand that a lot of people need to be educated on the danger of Islam and that we cannot compromise with evil.
Time to donate all our frequent flyer mileages and exchange them for one way tickets back home for Mohamed , Youssi and Fada.
at May 16, 2008 7:35 PM
The compounding of ignorance is astounding.
To hire someone prowestern and reliable, check their roots and if it is jihad free and they qualify, hire them.
Posted by: dgene at May 16, 2008 7:36 PM
You see, the elitists and the establishment think we are the problem, not the jihadists, so the hill to be climbed is really a mountain when you have to bring your own to reality before Islamic extremism can be tackled properly.
Posted by: Sounder at May 16, 2008 7:44 PM
"The U.S. is its own worst enemy when it comes to the desperately important task of recruiting immigrants as spies, analysts and translators in the war on terror, new Americans are telling intelligence officials."
-- from the article above
There are those who have a native command of Arabic -- Copts who speak Egyptian Arabic, Maronites who speak the Lebanese version, Chaldeans and Assyrians who speak the Iraq dialect, Jews who speak whatever it was that they, or their parents, brought from North Africa or Yemen, and others who know exactly how to blend into the "Palestinian" nether-world, and all of these people can be trusted in a way that would be impossible with the shape-shifting Muslims who may, now and again, be of assistance, but one is always wondering, always likely to be disappointed or deceived.
Given that in Islam "war is deception," given that Muslims -- Sunni as well as Shi'a -- at Taqiyya, or Kitman, or whatever it is that means lying about the contents of one's professed faith, and given all the examples of people who seemed so terribly well integrated -- see "Mike" Hawash at Intel -- or those famously"moderate" clerics, so ready with their professions of interfaith harmony (how many Muslim clerics have been found to be saying one thing in all those interfaith-racket gatherings, and quite different things when they thought they were speaking only to Muslims?_, in a way that no Believer in Islam can be trusted, for they have, as non-Muslims, had to endure life in Muslim countries. There are Urdu-speaking Hindus, and Pakistani Christians (quite different from the islamochristians to be found in Arab countries), and Indonesian Christians who speak various dialects of Bahasa, but who know the Islamic mindset.
There are Iranian exiles, Baha'is and Jews and Christians and even Zoroastrians, who have felt the full horror of the Islamic Republic of Iran. There are Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only Muslims, for example Iranians and Turks, who know exactly what happens when Islam, the real Islam, frees itself from the constraints put on it by a secularizing Shah, or by the relentless reforms of Ataturk, and who wish to rescue their own countries, and their adopted countries, from the menace of Islam.
There are apostates, who can learn to hide their apostasy, in order to go underground and work to report on what is really going on, in mosques and madrasas, and also outside those mosques and madrasas.
The assumption that the government "needs" to rely on Muslims -- the real Believers -- is false. It is not necessary. It is not wise. It offers a policy that is fraught with danger. It is a policy promoted by those who are too willing to listen to the siren songs and plausible smilers ("The smyler with the knyf under the cloke") among Muslims who are so eager to have the government do their bidding, and that bidding means an end to any further investigation into the texts, tenets, attitudes of Islam, but instead, a kind of collaboration between the American (and other Western) governments, and Muslims inside the United States (and other Western countries) to deliberately withhold the real story from the public, delaying the day of recognition, delaying understanding. The government has been inveigled into thinking it is accomplishing something. The Muslims (and those who collaborate closely with them) know that something else is being achieved, and it is to the benefit of the Camp of Islam (still unrecognized by Infidels), not to the beefit of the Camp (still unrecognized by Infidels) of Infidels.
Posted by: Hugh at May 16, 2008 8:57 PM
" "Now we are the only superpower in the entire world. "
that is not true, Russia and China are pretty doggone powerful, but neither is trying to stop Islam from taking over. Some day in the future they will have to make some serious decisions.
Posted by: pulsar182 at May 16, 2008 9:00 PM
What is the source for the poster or flyer celebrating the 9/11 terrorists? Know anything more about it?
Posted by: billposer at May 16, 2008 9:13 PM
Where is Nero? Where is his lyre? Anybody smell anything burning?
Posted by: tanstaafl at May 16, 2008 9:25 PM
"National Intelligence Director: "We try not to refer to 'jihad' as something that's bad"
the flip side is that JIhad is good. Boy are we in trouble.
at May 16, 2008 9:35 PM
"We did a good job in the war against Communism. We have not done a halfway decent job of countering the virulence (of al-Qaida) and the message properly," Allen said.
Maybe because you DID say that so-called world revolution WAS something bad. Maybe because you DID NOT hire stinking communists, but people from comie countries, people which rejected comie ideology, people who did not have hardliner comie communities and commie party centers in all big US cities. People who did not feel a threat to fight comunism, while living and working in the US. Because if mahmoud, or ali, or mohamad, or salim are in the US and they join the CIA, they will only live until their local mosque learns that they are fighting usama. And given the political correctness and positive image of jihad, this will happen soon, because fundamentalists WILL get in the very CIA and will betray anyone who really fights militant islam. So unless the Agency is looking for lotsa moles and few deathwish recruits, the whole campaign is a dud.
God help us!
Posted by: Excommie at May 16, 2008 11:02 PM
Der Congress tanzt.
The Titanic has hit the iceberg and the band plays on while the champagne-corks are a poppin'...
How do you spell 'INTELLIGENCE' in America?
These guys in homeland security must be amongst the dumbest in the land.
Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 16, 2008 11:18 PM
One can understand their dilemma. But if they don't understand the underlying fundamental cause for Islamic Jihad, nor familiar with the basic doctrines of Jihad as laid out by Mohammad and the early Caliphs, then no matter who they hire to work for them the cause is left ineffectual. First they must understand Islam, then worry about hiring people who can help. What's wrong with hiring apostates of Islam, or secularized Muslims, to get the job done?
Appeasing the Jihadists with nice words is not going to get it. They hate from the depth of their religious cult of Islam. Or at the very least they want to topple our Constitutional governmental system with their enslaving Sharia. Understand that, and the rest is easy. Once they get it, lots of people will turn up to help. Some of us are already there. Why can't State see it?
at May 16, 2008 11:39 PM
Time to rename the "intelligence" agencies, isn't it?
Posted by: protozoah at May 17, 2008 12:12 AM
This is like a weird segment of 24, where you can't trust anyone, especially government...agents...
I want these incompetents fired, and I want them fired now, all of them. From the Saudi kissing Bush to the lackeys who are writing this script. This is a lousey movie. If these clowns can't do any better than this:
"We try not to refer to 'jihad' as something that's bad," McConnell noted.
I want my money back...
Posted by: duh_swami at May 17, 2008 12:44 AM
"What is the source for the poster or flyer celebrating the 9/11 terrorists? Know anything more about it?"
Posted by: billposer
The first time I saw this poster was in a story over at WND http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34223
The link listed in the article, also showing at the top of the poster http://www.almuhajiroun.com/ has apparently been discontinued.
It appears that the inspiration for this poster was Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed, who is well known to readers of this site. Last I heard he fled Britain to avoid prosecution. There are a number of YouTube videos with snippets of sermons from this guy (just search on "Omar Bakhri" to find them). They're interesting to watch, because he comes across as somewhat more rational than many of the mullah nut cases featured here. This apparent rationality is far more dangerous than the sword-waving, frothing-at-the-mouth caricatures of jihadists that are regularly featured in the news.
Posted by: Eastview at May 17, 2008 1:32 AM
What a farce! Under this logic (or illogical) only a Muslim can translate Arabic, understand Muslim culture and work in that field.
Under the same logic only a Jew can translate Hebrew, understand Israeli/Jewish culture and work in that field.
Under the same logic only a Russian can translate Russian, understand Russian culture and work in that field.
Somebody better point this out the them before they really do become the laughing stock of the world's intelligence services.
Posted by: Mystical Time Traveler at May 17, 2008 2:22 AM
The Magnificent 19 - sounds like a bad movie title.
Posted by: champ at May 17, 2008 2:24 AM
To counter an ideology you actually need to understand what it is.
If you use the multiculturist's inclusion manual you have a telescope with 2 wrong ends to look down!
More oxymorons:
National Intelligence
Intelligence Director
National Intelligence Director.
If you bought such a thing in a store, you at least could take it back for a refund or replacement if it did not work, no such luck with government models.
at May 17, 2008 3:46 AM
I try not to refer to Leprosy as something bad...still it goes on maiming and killing people.
I dunno Pulsar...if you do a little checking with Janes and such you'll find that, at this point in time, China aint squat. We'd clean their clocks in a heartbeat. And Russia is a threat only because of their nukes. The number of troops and conventional arms are nothing like they were at the height of their power.
Posted by: Alaskan at May 17, 2008 3:54 AM
This is just ignorance masquerading as tact. If these guys really knew what was up they'd never talk like this.
Posted by: jewdog at May 17, 2008 6:42 AM
Amazing clarity in The Hindu about the Jaipur bombings:
Not just a claim, a manifesto for jihad
Citing from the Koran and the Hadith, or traditions of the Prophet, the Indian Mujahideen argues its actions have theological legitimacy. Scriptural calls for forgiveness relied on by the Deoband clerics, it says, are only relevant after a decisive military victory. Dialogue, it continues, is futile: “there is no existence of compromise between a believer and a non-believer.”
Islamic law, the e-mail asserts, allows the use of collective retaliation against civilians if they are infidels. Given that “a single [Muslim] home is attacked by thousands of [Hindu] terrorists, [a] single woman is raped by hundreds of men,” it becomes legitimate for “the mujahideen to go to any extent or use anything to crush the dignity and power of the enemy.”
According to the e-mail, all Indians are legitimate targets because “they have willingly elected their leaders and representatives in Parliament who draw up the policies which murder our children, dishonour our women, occupy our houses and plunder our wealth.” Moreover, Hindus “fund the terrorist organisations like Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Shiv Sena.”
http://www.hindu.com/2008/05/17/stories/2008051754761100.htm
at May 17, 2008 8:05 AM
The Islamic Trojan Horse Factory is at peak production and the members of our intelligence (sic) services are standing in line at the dealership. Rather than producing spies that will oversee Mohammedans attempts to overthrow our government we will produce spies for the Mohammedans within the government.
Posted by: Briars at May 17, 2008 8:23 AM
Jihad a Magic Wand
With what ever cleverness, the corporate western media portrays and tries to articulate the case of ‘Global war on Terrorism' and hikes up the flimsy pretexts to invade the sovereign countries like Iraq and Iran in the Middle East and beyond; it is bound to meet its failures and end up in desperation and frenzy. The myth of portrayed terrorism has no future and bears no ethical grounds to stand on. It is only by the vile choices of few assailants; the big wicks like United States with their vicious designs and evil choices; aiming at siphoning the resources of Broader Middle East to run the western oil edict economies through deceit and fallacy.
The committal of atrocities by the western forces in Middle East is enormous and it is a crime against humanity openly being committed to fulfil the rapacious greed. Where as western violence has learnt how to parcel it self out neatly; the local resistance or retaliation of few to save guard the sovereignty (being labelled as a ‘terrorist act’) remains the point of real contention.
If the Tomatoes and Cucumber was the only export from Middle East; there would have been no invasion of Iraq; no mega bases and military presence; no infestation of seas of Middle Eastern peninsula with navel fleets; no mass killing of defence less innocent people; no toppling of governments; no show trail for silencing of witnesses like Saddam Hussein and sending them down the gallows; no draconian sanctions against Iran restricting them to gain knowledge and defensive technology; no subjugation or oppression of people; no displacement of million of people and no agents like Israel.
For the Muslims in the area, life is but a misery?
For Neocons the terms Jihad has proved to be a Magic Wand. First the term Jihad was used to scramble the Muslim devotees’ forces (our Mujahideen friends) from all over Muslim world on the behest of US to fight Soviet Union and topple the Soviet Empire; the same term was later turned against them to declare them terrorist and grab many more lands and turn them into military mega bases. But now this term-Jihad, although is still in use very effectively but has been given a new name called…Al-Qaeda.
--------------------
Adabarez
at May 17, 2008 8:30 AM
The US and the west in general cannot afford to tie in jihad with terrorism, or terrorism with Islam.
The enemy must remain vague and undefined.
If the enemy as JW'ers know it, was defined as such by the Gov, all trade with 'Islam' will stop and seizures begin. It is illegal to trade with the enemy. Prescott Bush, Geo great grandaddy, and former US Senator, had property confiscated from him under the 'Trading with the enemy act', a bank. He was doing banking for Hitler. Bush has learned from this. If you don't actually identify the enemy, you can continue trading with him, you can have him over for dinner, you can show him your money collection and he will show you his. You can give him sensitive and well paying jobs, you can hold hands and even kiss the enemy, because the way you have structured it, no one knows who/what that is. No one can stop your trading and deal making, no one can confiscate your business, you can trade with the enemy with impunity. And at the same time, you can arrest a few terrorists to look good, as long as you keep their Islamic connections hidden...There is profit in this confusion...Bush should be congratulated for instituting such self serving plans that work this well...just before he is arrested...
at May 17, 2008 8:59 AM
Adabarez the troll: islam uber alles ?
or was it: socialism uber alles ?
or another smug liberal fool, self righteous in monumental blindness ?
go kiss your loser Obama.
Posted by: dgene at May 17, 2008 9:31 AM
"I never use the term 'global war on terrorism,'" Allen said. "I have never used it publicly, and..."
You just did, dipstick!
at May 17, 2008 10:17 AM
"We try not to refer to 'jihad' as something that's bad," McConnell noted, referring to a recent government communications policy.
Read that: truth hurts and we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. We may die as a result but at least we'll know no one's feelings were hurt.
Posted by: PMK at May 17, 2008 10:19 AM
"For the Muslims in the area, life is but a misery?"
Posted by: Adabarez
You know, I was thinking about those poor Muslims,
and the Saudi bigwigs (not the bigwicks) who don't see any need to increase oil production at this time.
I think we should relieve these poor Muslims of the responsibility of supplying petroleum to the U.S., and to other infidel lands.
If what you say is true, Adabarez, re our "invading" in the Middle East being based on the petroleum that is their one and only significant export, I think we should all just say, "Okay, you're right."
Then we should sieze the refineries.
That's sure to stop the war, isn't it?
Posted by: Abscedere at May 17, 2008 10:32 AM
If the Tomatoes and Cucumber was the only export from Middle East; there would have been no invasion of Iraq; no mega bases and military presence; no infestation of seas of Middle Eastern peninsula with navel fleets; no mass killing of defence less innocent people; no toppling of governments; no show trail for silencing of witnesses like Saddam Hussein and sending them down the gallows; no draconian sanctions against Iran restricting them to gain knowledge and defensive technology; no subjugation or oppression of people; no displacement of million of people and no agents like Israel. - from rant by Adabarez
There is only one way to make sense of this rant. It can only make sense if the Islamic world was at peace with the rest of humanity, did not try to reclaim lands it lost of the Ummah when the Jews reclaimed their ancestral land from the Mohammedan conquerors, if human rights were not systematically violated by Islam's Sharia, and if there had been no Jihad against the so called un-believers by the so called true-believers for the past 1400 years. If none of this was in place, then the rant makes sense. But since the goal of the Islamic cult of Jihad is world conquest for Mohammad's moon god Allah, this rant is only just that, another demented rant by an Islamic apologist who puts the onus not on themselves for all their crimes against humanity, but rather on the victims of these crimes, which is the rest of us.
Bring in democratic reform to the Islamic world, and rule of constitutional law of universal laws of freedom and equal rights for all humanity, male or female, straight or gay, and put your 1400 year violent Jihad genie back in its vile 7th century bottle, and start acting like normal human beings who love life more than death, and perhaps we can ignore your hideous cult long enough to bring back sanity into the world, and remove our forces from your pathetic hopeless lands. But until you do this, we will be there. Produce tomatoes and cucumbers if that is all you can do, but do not attack us, or you will feel the pressure of our fight. The oil on your pathetic desert lands is incidental, and not the primary force behind this war. YOU are, you and your islamic war cult of JIHAD. Not a religion. Peace will come when YOU give up your War Cult Jihad, not before.
at May 17, 2008 10:59 AM
"For the Muslims in the area, life is but a misery?"
Posted by: Adabarez
I, too, thought about this...then it occurred to me that it has been a miserable 1350+ years of misery caused entirely by Islam and the Qur'an.
Posted by: pulsar182 at May 17, 2008 2:09 PM
Re: Selling tomatoes and cucumbers:
Jihadists have found something to fight for there, too:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016159.php
Posted by: MarisolJW at May 17, 2008 3:30 PM
A CRY FOR JIHAD
When ever there is news of any killing or loss of life is involved in any incident; it is simply blamed on some Islamist group or any Muslim dissident faction and is labelled as ‘Jihad’. Responses to these events are often far more violent and excessively destructive but is skilfully wrapped up and presented neatly in the crystal goblet of ‘war against terror’.
There are many, many other dissident groups found operating in the world who are involved in more heinous and remorseless killing of innocents. But the word ‘Terrorism’ is mostly restricted to single out the Muslims and their connection to their religious belief of Jihad. The term Jihad is used as a catch word, a hype and a quick way of ascribing of any news of killing to the fanatics groups, found in Muslim world…;and With out any hesitation!
But Islamic view of Jihad in Islam is described in a very different way. Jihad is just an earnest effort put forward by a person into reformation of ones self or say, striving in the way of God to reform ones inner self to be a better person. Personal reformation takes the priority over reformation of society. Subject of ‘killing of an oppressor’ or ‘killing in defence’ comes at the very last on the list, as a lost resort. So in principle, it may not be fair to ascribe any killing of innocents to the religion Islam and malign the Muslims for such stupidities.
Any how, in the ‘context of killing and jihad’, we have to see that:
a. Is Jihad fostered and cherished by Muslims only or do we also find some thing equivalent and comparable of Jihad which tantamount to the same meanings in other religions?
b. Are the people leading their lives in other religions i.e. in, Christianity, Judaic, Buddha or Hindu societies have, some how thoroughly been humbled and deprived of virility- emasculated or say, removed and civilised to that degree that they don’t have any urge left, to kill any body even when they are oppressed or in their ‘self defence; as a lost resort.
c. And what are the actual practices found on the ground. Where thousand and thousands of people are being put to death, their properties are destroyed and children and women being massacred and maimed. All this that we see, is being done then on what account?
d. When the people subjected to persecution are deprived of any right to posses any potent arsenal for their defence and are savagely killed empty handed, cold blooded.( just visualise Israeli Markova tank charging and blasting a Palestinian house with the family inside and young kids throwing the stones back on tanks by stone slings.)
The killing prescribed as a lost resort in Islam in defence or to raise arm against the oppressor, is too mild and looks peace loving than the commandments found in other religions. Surprisingly enough; commandments found in other religions are much harsher.
For Instance the Christianity books prescribe an instant killing of a person who worships any other god; other than the Lord or kill a person who come out to work on Sabbath day (Saturday). See the links at * & **.
‘Eye for an eye’, ‘tooth for a tooth’ and ‘killed with the sword to be killed by the sword’ and like wise versions found in other religions are the subjects to be pondered upon but through colour less glasses only.
After all why we find that Middle Eastern countries where, predominantly Muslim nations live remain ablaze in wars?
Why the entire Middle Eastern society seems to be engulfed in an atmosphere of anarchy and violence. Why the killing and destruction is prevalent every where?
Who is the oppressor here? Who is the invader? Who is being killed and who is at rampage to kill?
A cry for Jihad is heard all over in the Middle Eastern world! Why?
What is the real cause or motivation behind this controversial out cry of extremism?
We all know that leading organisations like, Hamas and Hezbollah that we find in Middle East are the product of continuous oppression, deprivation and persecution spread over a many long, long years. They are the resistance organisations, fighting for their freedom and liberation of their home land and preferred way of life.
Spirit behind their cause and motivation is worth exploring.
History of freedom is universal and full of writings, written with the flowing blood of freedom fighters. Every sacrifice where the blood flows is counted a positive step forward and glorifiable in the eyes of martyrs by all the nations, till the time their oppressors concede and surrender.
Denial of freedom is death. Means of survival are limitless. The civilised world is to think cool for this and respect the prevalent feeling of oppressed and reach for the cause behind each fatality.
Islam is peace loving religion and follows the laws of nature. Nature does not accept any suppression. When suppressed; You are bound to get Recoil Action. Equal and opposite!
Links recommended:
*The Bible: The Lord here commands the destruction of all the places where people worship other gods. There appears not a shred of religious tolerance here! ...
www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htmihad is never said to be doomed or
**The Bible: Condemns those who worship any other than the biblical god. ... When he's done with the killing everyone will know that he is the Lord. ...
skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html -condemned. Generally word
----------------------------
Adabarez
(from the Archives)
at May 17, 2008 5:03 PM
"When ever there is news of any killing or loss of life is involved in any incident; it is simply blamed on some Islamist group or any Muslim dissident faction and is labelled as ‘Jihad’.
Posted by: Adabarez
generally when the Muslim terrorists attack (especially if it is grand attack involving massive loss of life), one Islamic group or another will openly claim credit for the attack, they will openly say it is Jihad and they will often make references to the Qur'an and boast the action take was Allahs will..Quite often the Islamic terrorists will provide film clips of the the IED or car bomb going off. Sometimes they will provide film clips of touching scenes with a suicide bomber as he prepares to attack the market. Then they will provide film clips or audio tapes making promises of more Jihad and of killing more people.
The Muslims are quite proud of their Jihad..plain and simple....and this is not the work of just a few.
at May 17, 2008 5:38 PM
Adabarez,
Your rant is just wrong on so many counts it's tedious to try to address them all, which others on this site have done more ably in any case.
However, on the business of the bloodiness of the bible, no one is denying the Old Testament's many exhortations to kill unbelievers. However, Judaism and Christianity both gave that up centuries ago. It's true that you might see scattered Christian fanatics go off track from time to time, but neither religions are hell bet on destroying those who are not of the same faith. It's only in Islam that you see this type of aggressive, violent intolerance routinely practiced on a wide scale TODAY.
While we appreciate how uncomfortable it is for you to be the target of our criticism, there is a simple remedy. Just stop blowing things up and otherwise being so obnoxious and making excuses for this in the name of your religion. When you do that, then civil discourse can begin. Until then, there's not much to talk about.
Posted by: Eastview at May 17, 2008 7:24 PM
The Malevolent 19
that exposed the violent truth about Islam to the world
"in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or Me." Jesus in John 16:2,3
....Fixed...
at May 17, 2008 7:34 PM
God Bless Robert Spencer and this important work that he is doing. This is the scariest stuff going on in America. I pray Hugh Hewitt is right about McCain willing in November. If he doesn't,.....the thought is too frightening to even comtemplate! And then there is talk about a brokered Republican convention this summer. What would that portend? Zobby says that only 24% of Republican voters are happy with our presumed candidate. And the party seems so fractured and out of sync that it seems hard to believe that a brokered convention could be successful. Gosh, guess we're just gonna have to trust God!
Posted by: Rick at May 17, 2008 9:15 PM
Why would you want to put potential infil-traitors inside the intelligence services?
Train or hire linguists from trustworthy (non-Muslim) groups.
Islam is a subversive anti-Constitutional, anti-Bill of Rights movement aiming to establish a global theocratic tyranny.
The Koran plainly says so.
Anyone who has already joined such a group, and believes in such a book, is not be trusted.
If the "intelligence" leadership don't know this fundamental fact, they don't know enough to be allowed to have a security clearances.
Being useful idiots more dangerous than those jihadist moles and double agents they would blindly hire.
Posted by: profitsbeard at May 18, 2008 2:24 AM
[The Muslims are quite proud of their Jihad… plain and simple....and this is not the work of just a few.
Posted by: pulsar182 at May 17, 2008 5:38 PM]
But the history tells us otherwise; it only happens in the lands where Muslims are being oppressed, coerced and being subjugated; they are deprived of their human rights; they are restricted their access to their bare minimal need of self defence weapons; when they are attacked savagely and having their all the hopes lost; they come up with suicidal options; even to sacrifice their life to defend their honour of family and land.
When there is going to be no oppression, subjugation, and such like deprivation and that their human rights are re-stored; I am sure there will be no more suicidal like Jihad etc.
It happens, when you loose all your hopes!
-----------
Adabarez
at May 18, 2008 6:28 AM
East view,
Proof lies in the pudding; it is good to think that Judaic and Christianity declared to shed various exhortations found in old testaments and asked the followers to give up such notions!
To formulate teachings is one thing but to bring them in the practice; that is one real issue. As I said earlier;
‘When there is going to be no oppression, subjugation, and such like deprivation (in the Muslim world) and that their human rights are re-stored; I am sure there will be no more suicidal like Jihad etc.
It happens, when you loose all your hopes!’
Thanx for lending me your ears
------------
Adabarez
at May 18, 2008 7:04 AM
But the history tells us otherwise; it only happens in the lands where Muslims are being oppressed, coerced and being subjugated; they are deprived of their human rights; they are restricted their access to their bare minimal need of self defence weapons; when they are attacked savagely and having their all the hopes lost; they come up with suicidal options; even to sacrifice their life to defend their honour of family and land.
When there is going to be no oppression, subjugation, and such like deprivation and that their human rights are re-stored; I am sure there will be no more suicidal like Jihad etc.
It happens, when you loose all your hopes!
-----------
Adabarez
Posted by: Adabarez
What history tells is that Through Islam , Muslims have been violent conquerors. The misery Muslims suffer is due entirely by their own actions. There has never been a pre=emptive attack on Muslim lands, only reactive counterattacks. Sometimes the Infidels waited hundreds of years to take action as in the case of the Muslims attacking and attempting to subdue Spain and southern Europe. The various crusades were the result of constant Muslim attacks on Christians. Even in todays time, the Muslims continue to attack Christians, in fact, in some Muslim countries the Christian and non Christian populations has been reduced to almost zero.
You mention oppression, subjugation, and deprivation...it is exactly this these things that Muslims inflict on those they are able to conquer.
Muslims, historically have , through their own actions , caused their own misery. By continuing their violent wayes they destine their current and future history with more misery , pain , and death...And it is OK with Allah..Allah hates Muslims.
Muslim History is long. I have attached a brief glimpse of some early Muslim History. You can cleary see their actions then, and not surprizingly, are similar to their actions today.
Muslims have never tried to be peaceful or willing to coexist with NonMuslims..it has caused them much pain and sorrow. What they do , they do because the Qur'an tells them what to do. The Qur'an is nothing more than a war manual.
"Jihad Through History
In 622 AD (year one in the Islamic calendar, AH 1), Muhammad abandoned Mecca for the city of Medina (Yathrib) some 200 farther north in the Arabian peninsula. In Medina, Muhammad established a paramilitary organization that would spread his influence and that of his religion throughout Arabia. Because there has never been a separation of the political-military and the religious in Islam, this development was entirely natural by Islamic principles. By the time of his death in 632 AD, Muhammad had extended his control in a series of raids and battles over most of southern Arabia. The conquered populations of these areas either had to submit to Muslim rule and pay a protection tax or convert to Islam.
i. The First Major Wave of Jihad: the Arabs, 622-750 AD
Near the end of his life, Muhammad sent letters to the great empires of the Middle East demanding their submission to his authority. This dispels any notion that the Prophet intended Islam's expansion to stop with Arabia. Indeed, it is only logical that the one true religion, revealed by the final and fullest prophet, should have universal sway. Thus, as Muhammad had fought and subdued the peoples of the Arabian peninsula, his successors Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, and Ali (known as "the four rightly-guided Caliphs") and other Caliphs fought and subdued the people of the Middle East, Africa, Asia, and Europe in the name of Allah.
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386; Narrated Jubair bin Haiya: Umar {the second Caliph} sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. ? When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau {Persia} came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, "Let one of you talk to me!" Al-Mughira replied, ? "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master."
Unleashing upon the world the blitzkrieg of its day, Islam rapidly spread into the territories of Byzantium, Persia, and Western Europe in the decades after Muhammad's death. The creaking Byzantine and Persian powers, having battled each other into mutual decline, offered little resistance to this unanticipated onslaught. The Arab Muslim armies charged into the Holy Land, conquered what is now Iraq and Iran, then swept west across North Africa, into Spain, and finally into France. The Muslim offensive was finally halted in the West at the Battle of Poitiers/Tours, not far from Paris, in 732 AD. In the east, the jihad penetrated deep into Central Asia.
As Muhammad had plundered his foes, so his successors also stripped the conquered areas -- incomparably richer both materially and culturally than the desolate sands of Arabia -- of their wealth and manpower. Almost overnight, the more advanced civilizations of the Middle East, North Africa, Persia, and Iberia saw their agriculture, native religions, and populations destroyed or plundered. Save for a handful of walled cities that managed to negotiate conditional surrenders, the catastrophes those lands suffered were very nearly complete.
Bat Ye'or, the leading scholar of Islam's expansion and its treatment of non-Muslims, has provided an inestimable service through the compilation and translation of numerous primary source documents describing centuries of Islamic conquest. She includes these documents in her works on Islamic history and the plight of non-Muslims under Islamic rule. In the history of jihad, the slaughter of civilians, the desecration of churches, and the plundering of the countryside are commonplace. Here is Michael the Syrian's account of the Muslim invasion of Cappodocia (southern Turkey) in 650 AD under Caliph Umar:
… when Muawiya {the Muslim commander} arrived {in Euchaita in Armenia} he ordered all the inhabitants to be put to the sword; he placed guards so that no one escaped. After gathering up all the wealth of the town, they set to torturing the leaders to make them show them things [treasures] that had been hidden. The Taiyaye {Muslim Arabs} led everyone into slavery -- men and women, boys and girls -- and they committed much debauchery in that unfortunate town: they wickedly committed immoralities inside churches. They returned to their country rejoicing. (Michael the Syrian, quoted in Bat Ye'or, The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam, 276-7.)
The following description by the Muslim historian, Ibn al-Athir (1160-1233 AD), of razzias (raiding expeditions) in Northern Spain and France in the eighth and ninth centuries AD, conveys nothing but satisfaction at the extent of the destruction wrought upon the infidels, including noncombatants.
In 177 , Hisham, prince of Spain, sent a large army commanded by Abd al-Malik b. Abd al-Wahid b. Mugith into enemy territory, and which made forays as far as Narbonne and Jaranda . This general first attacked Jaranda where there was an elite Frank garrison; he killed the bravest, destroyed the walls and towers of the town and almost managed to seize it. He then marched on to Narbonne, where he repeated the same actions, then, pushing forward, he trampled underfoot the land of the Cerdagne {near Andorra in the Pyrenees}. For several months he traversed this land in every direction, raping women, killing warriors, destroying fortresses, burning and pillaging everything, driving back the enemy who fled in disorder. He returned safe and sound, dragging behind him God alone knows how much booty. This is one of the most famous expeditions of the Muslims in Spain. In 223 , Abd ar-Rahman b. al Hakam, sovereign of Spain, sent an army against Alava; it encamped near Hisn al-Gharat, which it besieged; it seized the booty that was found there, killed the inhabitants and withdrew, carrying off women and children as captives. In 231 , a Muslim army advanced into Galicia on the territory of the infidels, where it pillaged and massacred everyone. In 246 , Muhammad b. Abd ar-Rahman advanced with many troops and a large military apparatus against the region of Pamplona. He reduced, ruined and ravaged this territory, where he pillaged and sowed death. (Ibn al-Athir, Annals, quoted in Bat Ye'or, The Decline of Eastern Christianity under Islam, 281-2.)
This first wave of jihad engulfed much of the Byzantine, Visigothic, Frankish, and Persian Empires and left the newborn Islamic Empire controlling territory from Southern France, south through Spain, east across North Africa to India, and north to Russia. Early in the second millennium AD, the Mongol invasion from the east greatly weakened the Islamic Empire and ended Arab predominance therein.
ii. The Second Major Wave of Jihad: the Turks, 1071-1683 AD
Some twenty-five years before the first Crusading army set out from central Europe for the Holy Land, the Turkish (Ottoman) armies began an assault on the Christian Byzantine Empire, which had ruled what is now Turkey since the Roman Empire's capital was moved to Constantinople in 325 AD. At the battle of Manzikert, in 1071, the Christian forces suffered a disastrous defeat, which left much of Anatolia (Turkey) open to invasion. This second wave of jihad was temporarily held up by the invading Latin Armies during the Crusades (see Islam 101 FAQs), but, by the beginning of the 14th century, the Turks were threatening Constantinople and Europe itself.
In the West, Roman Catholic armies were bit by bit forcing Muslim forces down the Iberian peninsula, until, in 1492, they were definitively expelled (the Reconquista). In Eastern Europe, however, Islam continued in the ascendant. One of the most significant engagements between the invading Muslims and the indigenous peoples of the region was the Battle of Kosovo in 1389, where the Turks annihilated a multinational army under the Serbian King, St. Lazar, though their progress into Europe was significantly slowed. After numerous attempts dating back to the seventh century, Constantinople, the jewel of Eastern Christendom, finally fell in 1453 to the armies of Sultan Mahomet II. Lest one ascribe the atrocities of the first wave of jihad to the "Arabness" of its perpetrators, the Turks showed they were fully capable of living up to the principles of the Quran and the Sunnah. Paul Fregosi in his book Jihad describes the scene following the final assault on Constantinople:
Several thousand of the survivors had taken refuge in the cathedral: nobles, servants, ordinary citizens, their wives and children, priests and nuns. They locked the huge doors, prayed, and waited. {Caliph} Mahomet {II} had given the troops free quarter. They raped, of course, the nuns being the first victims, and slaughtered. At least four thousand were killed before Mahomet stopped the massacre at noon. He ordered a muezzin {one who issues the call to prayer} to climb into the pulpit of St. Sophia and dedicate the building to Allah. It has remained a mosque ever since. Fifty thousand of the inhabitants, more than half the population, were rounded up and taken away as slaves. For months afterward, slaves were the cheapest commodity in the markets of Turkey. Mahomet asked that the body of the dead emperor be brought to him. Some Turkish soldiers found it in a pile of corpses and recognized Constantine {XI} by the golden eagles embroidered on his boots. The sultan ordered his head to be cut off and placed between the horse's legs under the equestrian bronze statue of the emperor Justinian. The head was later embalmed and sent around the chief cities of the Ottoman empire for the delectation of the citizens. Next, Mahomet ordered the Grand Duke Notaras, who had survived, be brought before him, asked him for the names and addresses of all the leading nobles, officials, and citizens, which Notaras gave him. He had them all arrested and decapitated. He sadistically bought from their owners {i.e., Muslim commanders} high-ranking prisoners who had been enslaved, for the pleasure of having them beheaded in front of him. (Fregosi, Jihad, 256-7.)
This second, Turkish wave of jihad reached its farthest extent at the failed sieges of Vienna in 1529 and 1683, where in the latter instance the Muslim army under Kara Mustapha was thrown back by the Roman Catholics under the command of the Polish King, John Sobieski. In the decades that followed, the Ottomans were driven back down through the Balkans, though they were never ejected from the European continent entirely. Still, even while the imperial jihad faltered, Muslim land- and sea-borne razzias into Christian territory continued, and Christians were being abducted into slavery from as far away as Ireland into the 19th century."
at May 18, 2008 7:45 AM
Pulsar182,
Tales from History are long and painful, on both the sides but I think we are discussing here the riddles of present day turmoil that we are facing; I mean post colonial era or say post WWII.
Is there any glimmer of hope; of peace and serenity to achieve in our life times?
-----------
Adabarez
at May 18, 2008 9:42 AM
Unleashing upon the world the blitzkrieg of its day, Islam rapidly spread into the territories of Byzantium, Persia, and Western Europe in the decades after Muhammad's death. The creaking Byzantine and Persian powers, having battled each other into mutual decline, offered little resistance to this unanticipated onslaught. The Arab Muslim armies charged into the Holy Land, conquered what is now Iraq and Iran, then swept west across North Africa, into Spain, and finally into France. The Muslim offensive was finally halted in the West at the Battle of Poitiers/Tours, not far from Paris, in 732 AD. In the east, the jihad penetrated deep into Central Asia. - Posted by: pulsar182
Excellent post Pulsar, thorough descriptions of what you said earlier:
"What history tells is that Through Islam , Muslims have been violent conquerors. The misery Muslims suffer is due entirely by their own actions. There has never been a pre=emptive attack on Muslim lands, only reactive counterattacks. Sometimes the Infidels waited hundreds of years to take action as in the case of the Muslims attacking and attempting to subdue Spain and southern Europe."
The difference is that the Middle Eastern areas and Asia never threw off the Islamic yoke of conquest, while Europe did. We will do it again. This time when we fight the necessary war with Islam (not just 'terrorism') we will inspire all the other conquered nations to do it too. Islamic Jihad is digging itself a grave of history. Whether in this century or the next, Islam will bury itself. If by some cosmic miracle it could Reform itself into a universally peaceful religion from its current war-cult mentality, then this war need not happen. I am not hopeful they can.
Is there any glimmer of hope; of peace and serenity to achieve in our life times? ----------- Adabarez
Probably not, if Islam cannot face its many faults.
Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at May 18, 2008 12:21 PM
Whatta buncha maroons!
Posted by: joeblough at May 18, 2008 1:39 PM
"Tales from History are long and painful, on both the sides but I think we are discussing here the riddles of present day turmoil that we are facing...."
Posted by: Adabarez
only fools thrive on riddles, it todays fast paced world , it is facts that count.
on might say it is the goal of Islam to be THE Dominant Religion in order for there to be peace, yet the fact of the matter is plain to see..In those countries there is much poverty, strife, misery and much death..all of it caused by the insane rules of government and life the Muslims themselves dictate. In the lands where the religion is at or near 100% Islam you will find rampant thievery, rapes, assaults , extortions, murders, new fatwahs on everything imaginable, gangs of armed thugs attacking each other, intimidations, bribery, and just about any vile act man can inflict upon man. All of this is Muslim on Muslim...as the Muslims have succeed in eliminating the NOn Muslim. The hatred does not leave Islam once the Non Muslim is eliminated.
The Facts show that as Muslim increase in numbers in those NonMuslim countries that allow them in and you will find great increases in hate and violence in the once peaceful neighborhoods, you will find great increases in the violent crimes..
It is a slow but steady Jihad, one that gradually ousts the NonMuslims, just as Muslims ousted NonMuslims in those now Muslim dominated countries.
One of the main weapons the Islamic JIhadists use is fear. Fear of violence, fear of lawsuits, fear of intimidation, fear of extortion, and even fear of the sight of a Muslim.
Or Maybe you are referring your riddle to Israel, that tiny speck of land inhabited by Jews, that one speck of land that is a thorn in the sides of the Muslims, that one speck of land where the population refuses to submit to Islam, that one speck of land where the population fights back.
Perhaps your riddle should ask why do the Muslims keep attacking Israel. Israel throughout time has offered peace with the Muslims only to be continually attacked after offers of peace were rejected. This is historical fact. THe Muslims are so consumed with hate that there will never be peace in the Middle East or anywhere else the Muslims want to take by force.
Do you honestly believe there would be peace if Israel were annihilated..there is no riddle here, the answer is a resounding NO.. the Muslims would simply move on to the next target, Turkey perhaps, Greece, Italy, and on to Europe..
The world is wising up to the warlike guidelines of the Qur'an and the information is rapidly being learned and whatever riddles exist, exist only in the Minds of the hate filled Muslims.
The Infidels are learning the ways of Dawa, Taqqiyya, and Tu-quoque, Dar al Harb, Dar al Islam; the riddles exist no more..only facts.
The Infidels are beginning to tighten the noose and Islam is providing the rope.
Perhaps your riddle should ask, "is there peace in Islams future?", the answer we all know is "absolutely not" Islam is too full of hate to ever coexist with anyone not Muslim, heck they cannot coexist with each other in the absence of NOn Muslims.
There are no riddles, only facts.
Posted by: pulsar182 at May 18, 2008 2:18 PM
The 19 Morons!
They're morons for thinking that Sex Heaven lies beyond life's threshold. What a crock.
Read the Bible, it will scare the Hell out of you.
Posted by: champ at May 18, 2008 4:05 PM
Tales from History are long and painful, on both the sides but I think we are discussing here the riddles of present day turmoil that we are facing; I mean post colonial era or say post WWII.
-----------
Adabarez
Sorry, Adabarez, you may wish to keep the discussion restricted to recent events, but this is blatantly self serving on your part. You can't have it both ways, on the one hand restricting attention only to recent events to claim victimhood, but then expanding it to include historically distant events at other times when you think it to your benefit to do so.
In the conflict between the West and Islam, the West would have more or less been content to let historical bygones be bygones. However, Islamic aggression, apparently guided by a compass that was set 1000 years ago (and still referring to us as Crusaders, for god's sake - how the hell are we even supposed to relate to this?), has forced us to relearn lessons our predecessors, staunch defenders against Islamic predations in centuries past, knew so well. We may be slow to anger, but this time we will not be so quick to forget. We were caught off guard by you guys at first, but now that you have our full attention you may wish you hadn't been so successful. We've learned a few things in the past few hundred years, since our last serious skirmishes occurred. We are quick studies and can devise defenses in ways that those whose minds have been constricted from birth by Islamic propaganda are incapable of even fathoming.
It is amusing to see ME articles about the "death throes" of Israel and the West. These are nothing more than the wishful delusions of old men clinging to their stories of past grandeur, from a culture that is itself in its twilight. In the sweep of history, Islam had a pretty good run, but face it - it's over. There is no going back.
Posted by: Eastview at May 18, 2008 5:01 PM
Eastview,
Although I only partially agree with your reasoning but I must say; Eastview yours this presentation is very impressive.
--------
Adabarez
at May 19, 2008 6:11 PM
This is so idiotic it's hard to comment on. Perhaps if they are lacking expertise they should stop letting go or gagging their genuine experts like Tim Furnish and Stephen Coughlin.
Posted by: Archimedes2 at May 19, 2008 6:36 PM
The Biggest Riddle seems to be...Enigma of Fear
It is worth repeating here that beneath the myriad reasons for these ‘riddles of the day’ appears to be a fundamental inability of people whose beliefs vary to understand how the other side thinks and feels. We have here a dialogue of the deaf, although paradoxically both sides share the same motivation: fear.
Western culture and public discourse has become so secularized in recent generations that there is little comprehension of people whose religion holds a central place in their lives and identity. European nation-states were constructed through centuries of struggle and conflict in which religious differences and oppression were often explosive. People today fear that they are in danger of losing what was won with so much suffering: their freedoms and their collective sense of identity.
Behind these fears lie the rapid changes of globalization, the uncertainties of geopolitics and seeing the failure of re-run of old colonial type schemes by the west to subjugate the defence less in Middle East and grab their economic resources through fallacy and deceit that these plans now lay exposed and frustrated. At home in Europe the fears focus on immigrants and ethnic minorities - which in many places mean Muslims and their expected retaliatory reprisal.
Any demand from Muslims to have their right of religion recognised is seriously interpreted as a threat to the hard-won rights of freedom of expression. Those who feel threatened fear not just the small Muslim minorities in Europe - in most countries less than three percent of the population - but also the hundreds of millions of Muslims beyond their borders in the broader Muslim world, where the so-called "new enemy" is to be found.
Many parts of the Muslim world also fear uncertainties such as globalization, international instability and, closer to home, unemployment and arbitrary governments - not to mention random violence. But there the fear is focused on the heirs of the old imperial powers: the West, which is again seen as wishing to dominate and thus undermine Islam. In response, respect for the religion and its symbols becomes a central focus.
One side is talking the language of freedoms and rights. The other side is talking the language of respect for the sacred.
----------
Adabarez
at May 19, 2008 6:58 PM
'Adabarez' is having fun throwing sand in our eyes.
But time to cut to the chase.
Two questions, 'adabarez'.
If you found yourself in a dark alley with Robert Spencer, would you kill him?
Yes or No?
If I were standing in front of you, and I said, 'I know you call your cult leader 'mohammed'. But *I* call him Ubul Kassim and I say that Maimonides was right to say that he was 'Ha-Meshugga, The Madman',
Would you kill me?
Yes or No?
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 20, 2008 1:46 AM
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 20, 2008 1:46 AM
Dumbledoresarmy,
I respect Mr Robert Spencer like any thing. He is one of the most learned people. But I can only say that in my opinion he is misguided and there, one can only pray that Allah the Almighty guides us all to right path. It does not mean that if I do not agree with him or with you what ever you write or say; I may only refute or try my best to argue and convince but certainly not abuse. This is beyond any True Muslim to even think of.
Allah’s guidance is very much there to deal with such situations:
[7:68] I deliver to you the messages of My Lord and I am to you a sincere and faithful counsellor.[16:82] But if they turn away, then thou art responsible only for the plain delivery of the Message
About killing a person the ‘Teachings of Glorious Quran’ come to hand:
[5:32] On account of this…… whosoever killed a person - unless it be for killing a person (a murder case)or for creating disorder in the land - it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.
[5:28] 'If thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me, I shall not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee. I do fear Allah, the Lord of the Universe
[5:99] On the Messenger lies only the conveying of the Message. And Allah knows what you disclose and what you hide.
[36:17] 'And our duty is only plain delivery of the Message.'
[42:48] But if they turn away, We have not sent thee as a guardian over them. Thy duty is only to convey the Message.
[3:20] But if they dispute with thee, say, 'I have surrendered myself completely to Allah, and also those who follow me.' And say to those, who have been given the Book and to the Unlearned, 'Have you also surrendered?' If they surrender, then they will surely be rightly guided, but if they turn back, then thy duty is only to convey the Message. And Allah is Watchful of His servants.
-------------
Adabarez
at May 20, 2008 3:25 AM
Blasphemy
BTW; there is not a single verse in Quran which supports or sanctions any punishment to any ignorant blasphemous.
---------
Adabarez
at May 20, 2008 3:59 AM
'adabarez'
I notice that you avoid a straight answer.
Let's try again.
Sharia law says that those who 'blaspheme' Islam, are to be killed.
Should those who - like Mr Spencer - criticise and question Islamic teachings and Ubul Kassim alias 'Mohammed', be killed? (I note that many people, in Pakistan, have been accused of 'blasphemy' for saying hardly anything that could rationally be construed as 'criticism' or 'mockery'; and some of them have even been killed by angry Muslims).
Yes?
No?
By the way, I must add that allowing someone to remain alive, but subjecting them to all manner of cruelty and gross mistreatment just short of actually killing them outright, may technically classify as a 'no', but it's not much different from a 'yes', as far as I can see.
Here are two more questions.
1. Suppose a Muslim that you knew, was seriously making plans to murder Mr Spencer.
Would you tell the Infidel police, so that the would-be assassin could be caught in time, and the attack thwarted?
Yes or No?
2. Suppose a Muslim that you knew, was planning a major bombing attack in an Infidel city.
Would you tell the Infidel police about him or her, so that the attack could be prevented?
Yes or No?
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy
at May 22, 2008 12:49 AM
Comments are turned off and archived for this entry.
(Note: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.)