Bye Bye UK............

Posted by: Al-Insan-El-kamel at May 28, 2008 5:28 PM

Clear-eyed apparaisal of an utterly appalling situation. My mother is from England, and my Aunt and cousins still live there. I'm not sure how much of a future they will have in their own country if the powers that be don't take heed.

Posted by: gravenimage at May 28, 2008 5:31 PM

It is truly unbelievable.

Posted by: darcy at May 28, 2008 5:39 PM

This is like live blogging the disintegration of a nation.

Posted by: Sounder at May 28, 2008 5:40 PM

Yep, their plan is taking shape. Worldwide.

Posted by: gymgal at May 28, 2008 5:42 PM

inch by inch, lie by lie
that't the way free countries die.

Posted by: pulsar182 at May 28, 2008 5:46 PM

I'm amazed that this articles appears where it does. It is encouraging that at least some C of E activists seem to be aware of the problem and have sufficent cojones to write about it/

Posted by: MP at May 28, 2008 5:50 PM

Here comes Shariaa law as seen on the BBC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ex-JxS4Z8o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZNx0xHe0p0

Posted by: ethoman at May 28, 2008 5:59 PM

"This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper."

The Hollow Men, 1925, by T. S. Eliot

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at May 28, 2008 6:02 PM

the disintegration of more than just a nation, as we know.

i have one seemingly ex-friend whose focus is on the central importance of female equality; and so there is no consciousness of the danger of having so few european births, besides muslims. other people around me are focused on their day-to-day jobs, or on this or that interest.

but there is among us a determined minority -- and we know that history is made by determined minorities, and in particular by determined young men.

national public radio had a 2-part story on muslim polygamy. the first is here, and indicates some of the grief:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90857818

The second is here and seems to me something of a commercial for islam:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90886407

so what will happen, among a public that has less and less christian faith; that accepts polygamy as a personal choice (live and let live); and whose family structure is becoming more and more dismal (70% of black kids are now born out of wedlock), so that kids and their parents have less-and-less sense of personal restraint? when you have no sense of restraint, you fear the emotions within, and you yearn for the strong restrictions and focused pleasures of totalitarianism. you yearn for islam.

the political leadership is not up to the job. obama says "islam" and thinks "warmth." bush and mccain say "islam" and think "civilization."

if the muslims avoid violent jihad for a time... what force stops them?

Posted by: StillBreathing at May 28, 2008 6:04 PM

BEYOND UNBELIEVABLE!The West is being invaded by by POPULATION MIGRATION, probably much of it legal and open, but an INVASION, none the less.

Posted by: CHOI at May 28, 2008 6:05 PM

"This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper."

The Hollow Men, 1925, by T. S. Eliot

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at May 28, 2008 6:05 PM

People, you can easily e-mail Queen Elizabeth.

Do it.

If she doesn't do something, she will be the Monarch that failed England. Utterly failed.

Posted by: darcy at May 28, 2008 6:06 PM

Hopefully American liberty will ironically spur the English to avoid this tyranny. The first step is the formation of a non-racist (ie BNP) political party which will stop Islamic immigration (with exceptions for truly non-Sharia Muslims) and expel any Muslims who have plans to turn England into another sorry Islamic state.

Fight the good fight England. You've got allies in North America!

Posted by: James Martel at May 28, 2008 6:18 PM

2038...that is just three short decades. Does anyone want to venture what will happen when Islam takes over Britain AND it nuclear arsenal and military machine?

Posted by: Theseus at May 28, 2008 6:23 PM

2038...that is just three short decades. Does anyone want to venture what will happen when Islam takes over Britain AND it nuclear arsenal and military machine?

Posted by: Theseus at May 28, 2008 6:24 PM

Soon enough you will see nationalist movements on the rise here in America and the U.K. as people run out of options they will revolt, and gravitate to more radical ways of preserving thier societies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSm_dw4NvE4

Posted by: ethoman at May 28, 2008 6:30 PM

People will turn to something ... anything to preserve our societies before they are overrun.

Posted by: ethoman at May 28, 2008 6:34 PM

just keep thinking and talking about this problem ...

that will fix everything

Posted by: TINBH at May 28, 2008 6:39 PM

If you want a sample of what will happen read the history of the fall of what is now modern day Turkey in about 700AD. Or other accounts were Islam moved it by force or immigration.

It is an old story were people and nations come the light of Christianity. Over time they reject the claims and truths of God. Then they are swallowed up by an inferior system like Islam. Eventually no one remembers the culture or only reads about them in history books.

Posted by: Im.mad.as.HELL! at May 28, 2008 7:07 PM

The English are arguably the single most influential people in world history over the past thousand years (mostly for good I would assert). And now it seems they are fading away by slow national suicide. The modern elites (earlier elites still had guts and common sense) are most responsible for this, but collective guilt is in order too. Will England wake up before it is too late? With each passing year it seems more unlikely as the number of Muslims grow in a land where they should not be. Not much, if anything, could be sadder than this.

Posted by: Wellington at May 28, 2008 7:31 PM

If you are sitting on American soil don't sit back and feel sorry for the U.K. and think that it is not happening here.

It is happening here too.

Politicians and judges are selling our countries out.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at May 28, 2008 7:31 PM

If you are sitting on American soil realize that it is happening here too. So don't look over the pond and feel sorry for the U.K. when our own country is going the same way.

Posted by: alaskan1000 at May 28, 2008 7:35 PM

Time for the good bishops in the House of Lords, and for Christians of other persuasions throughout the United Kingdom, to start thinking about how to get some UK justices and lawyers on side, and adapt for UK purposes something along the lines of this proposal for the USA, as posted in another thread by one of the regulars here.

HERE BEGIN THE WORDS OF ROBSCOTTW:

" Islam is at "war" with US {with the UK, too}, not the other way around.

"So, my proposal is this -

http://pedestrianinfidel.blogspot.com/2007/02/proposed-constitutional-amendment.html

"Here's a taste -

Thursday, February 08, 2007
A Proposed Constitutional Amendment
Background and justification to Amendment 28
{UK readers with backgrounds in law and government may know what sort of preamble may be required, here}

{}

Whereas on 9/11/2001 19 Muslim hijackers acting in the name of Islam killed 3,000 Americans, and numerous other acts of terrorism have been directed at the American people around the world;
{Substitute a statement describing the July 2005 bombings of the London transport system, and attacks by jihadis upon members of the British Commonwealth, such as in India at Bombay and Jaipur, the jihad war against India in Kashmir, and attacks upon friends and allies of the UK, such as the USA}

Whereas representatives of Islam around the world including Osama Bin Laden (architect of 9/11), the government of Iran including Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, HAMAS, Hezbollah, and other Islamic groups have declared jihad (war) on America, and regularly declare that America should cease to
exist; {I gather that there are jihad-and-sharia-minded Muslims even within the UK who have made downright treasonous statements, and that the UK has been included as a target in calls for worldwide jihad by Muslim rabblerousers elsewhere}

{}

Article II

As representatives of Islam {of Political Islam} around the world have declared war, and committed acts of war, against the United States {against the United KIngdom} and its democratic allies around the world, {and Muslims within the UK have demonstrably engaged in treasonous activities} Islam is hereby declared an enemy of the United States {of the United Kingdom} and its practice within the United States {United Kingdom} is now prohibited.'

Read the whole thing. Nothing short of this will suffice to put a stop to this insane accomodation of an ideology that is determined to destroy our freedoms and way of life.

- Posted by: robscottw at May 28, 2008 2:15 PM

I like it. Legislation of this kind should be under consideration across all the Lands of the Infidel.

One could also, in the case of the UK, pray for a sweeping revival within the Christian churches, comparable to the Welsh Revival and the firestorms that were lit by John and Charles Wesley and, later on, by William Booth, of the Salvation Army.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 28, 2008 7:40 PM

And by the time the year 2038 roles around it will have been 100 years since both Britain, and France signed the Munich pact to appease Hitler ,and a year later both France and Britain would declare war on Germany.

Once again Britain, and France remained confused in dealing with Germany as they did leading up to World War I. Then comes the inter war period from 1919 to 1938 and once again we find Britain and Germany confused.

The ironic tragedy here is that some of the same players are still here as they where during the Nazi error. Their spiritual leaders were telling Hitler how to deal with the Jews, they were enlisting their followers into Hitler's armies, and they are still doing the same things they did then as they have for nearly 1,400 years.

The only problem is those same players who praised The elders of Zion,Mein Kampf,who deny the existence of the holocaust,and yet practice antisemitism have been invited into the country without firing near a shot. And yes Britain, and France still remain confused.

Posted by: Mackie at May 28, 2008 7:48 PM

England is not alone: other EUrabian countries are being sold down the road faster than the rainforest, and newly elected Krudd govenment wants to send in the brain police to fix the 'xenophobia, Islamophobia, bigotry and ignorance' in Camden.

That same Camden that just voted unanimously against the Muhammedan madrassah in their middst:

http://sheikyermami.com/2008/05/28/camden-madrassah-update-krudd-government-sends-in-the-brain-police-to-fix-anti-islamic-xenophobia/

Australia's resident Islamofascist Yusuf Irfan predicts 30 years before Australia succumbs...

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at May 28, 2008 7:49 PM

robscottw -

I hope you don't mind my little bracketed reflections and comments inserted into your original text...they are only intended as tentative - VERY tentative - attempts to imagine how the text might conceivably be adapted/ reworded to suit, for example, UK conditions.

I know Britain doesn't have a written constitution, but surely the vast resources of English common law, buttressed by Welsh and Scots law, and the laws concerning Treason and Sedition, could be brought to bear.

Australia has a written Constitution, so it should be possible for us to do something.

Where are the people, steeped in British, American, Australian, Canadian law and political institutions, who will get together and work day and night on hammering out classically-worded, well-thought-out rock-solid legal weapons against the infiltration, subversion and downright barefaced TREASON currently being undertaken by what Bill Warners calls Political Islam?

If the miracle happens - if enough ordinary citizens wake up in time, and we then get a lot more Sue Myricks and Geert Wilders coming into politics, and, in the churches, more Patrick Sookhdeos and Michael Nazir-Alis - then it would be best to have some thoroughly-well-thought-out laws ready and waiting, rather than for people to be frantically inventing things 'on the fly'.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 28, 2008 7:50 PM

Doesn't the UK have nuclear weapons? What will happen if an Islamic Britain is in charge of Britains weapons?

Posted by: Voltaire at May 28, 2008 7:55 PM

Voltaire:

If the UK and British nukes fall altogether into mohammedan hands, then clearly the American nuclear forces will have to train their guns on London and the British nuclear capacity.

There would be no alternative.

Posted by: joeblough at May 28, 2008 8:21 PM

The case has been made that Socialist Multiculturalism is the new Communism - Communism for the 21st century.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2125/print

World Socialism is actually a reincarnation of International Communism, minus the organizing and leadership nexus of the Kremlin. World Socialism, i.e.: neo-Communism is the modern political expression of an atheist/materialist worldview, and as such, sees its self in competition with other world views - namely Christianity which also occupies the minds and hearts of many in the West, and which is at the historical heart of the West.

Socialist Multiculturalism must extinguish Christianity in order to survive, to have a viable political ecosystem; and thus the war on Christian culture and political presence in the West. Socialist Multiculturalists, i.e.: neo-Communists believe they can appease and dominate the Islamist beast, but they have miscalculated. The Islamist beast is all-consuming in war and politics. Socialist Multiculturalists, as atheists in the main, still love life; their new side-kicks and eventual enemy, loves death; and that will be the difference between the winner and loser in Europe.

Socialist Multiculturalism must be destroyed as a political force in both Europe and America. We in America have the advantage of a more religious people, an incredible foundation of liberty, fewer Muslim immigrants, and two wide oceans.

Posted by: Storm-Rider at May 28, 2008 8:40 PM

Theseus:

"2038...that is just three short decades. Does anyone want to venture what will happen when Islam takes over Britain AND it nuclear arsenal and military machine."

Some composure needed in the comments, I think - hysteria is creeping in (again). Re-read the article, paying closer attention to the first sentence:

"If recent reports of trends in religious observance prove to be correct, then in some 30 years the mosque will be able to claim that, religiously speaking, the UK is an Islamic nation…"

“Religiously speaking”. What the writer means is that Islam will, possibly, be the most practiced religion in the UK, not that Islam will have “taken over Britain AND its nuclear arsenal…” They are two very different things.

Who knows? The writer's fear may indeed come true. But if it does, the Anglicans will only have themselves to blame.

I’m not a Christian, but it seems to me as if the Anglican Church struggles to find a role in modern Britain, continually attempting new fangled ways of make itself more relevant in a modern secular society. Yet despite this, its congregations are still falling. It should be patently obvious why.

Whenever I see a member of the Church of England clergy on TV, I want to give them a damn good shake. I don’t mean to be disrespectful, but nearly every one of them comes across as being as limp as a wet lettuce: smug, patronising and totally out of touch with their natural constituency. Apart from Michael Nazir Ali and a pitiful handful of others, every CofE clergyman appears to share the same blindly hopeful happy-clappy philosophy as that beardy liberal “ass hatte”, the Archdhimmi of Canterbury.

The CofE badly needs to develop a philosophy that can appeal to the modern age. That doesn’t mean becoming even more liberal (if such a thing were possible) or descending the other way into Jesus Camp type weirdness, but perhaps a modern version of the “muscular Christianity” that helped reform and invigorate Victorian Britain?

And if they are searching for something to make their religion more relevant to modern Britain, how about standing up for themselves (and their millions of fellow Anglicans worldwide) and speaking out against Islamisation? They may be pleasantly surprised at the response.

Posted by: Matamoros at May 28, 2008 8:47 PM

The unfortunate issue is that a lot of Australians I know seem not to care. They cannot get into their heads that Islam is a danger at all let alone Islamic ambitions in Britain. They consider me a radical if not a racist when I table my arguments on any topic. It is good to see a Christian priest share his thoughts about the impending situation in his homeland given the idiot Bishops over here live in ga ga land.

Our own government has announced changes to the Australian immigration policies some of which are downright scary. They can see what has happened in countries like France and they share in the media their excitement about following down the same road.

Posted by: Will at May 28, 2008 9:03 PM

matamoros:

Keep in mind that Islam is much more than a religion, some experts feel it could be as much as 80Pct. political with its sharia impositions. It is in fact a totalitarian fascist ideology.

Posted by: Mackie at May 28, 2008 10:29 PM

Matamoros,

What do you mean by "Jesus Camp type wierdness" in your statement, "The CofE badly needs to develop a philosophy that can appeal to the modern age. That doesn’t mean becoming even more liberal (if such a thing were possible) or descending the other way into Jesus Camp type weirdness, but perhaps a modern version of the “muscular Christianity” that helped reform and invigorate Victorian Britain?" If you think making fun of "Jesus Camp" is a good time, how about Chuck Norris-ianity! Maybe he can roundhouse kick some brains back into your head!

Not a single commentator on this page has come close to hitting the target. The Bible has predicted the events of history to 100% accuracy. Let that sink in for a moment. The prophetic calendar is ticking, and the rest of Biblical prophecy which is at the "end of times" will surely happen; and soon. The "Church of England" does not represent Jesus Christ, and His power. And Chuck Norris can't hold a candle to the Christ when He comes back to reestablish His kingdom.

You say you are not a Christian. The Savior of mankind is more of a man than any man who has ever posted on Jihad Watch, especially from any lilly-livered armchair blasphemers who Chuck Norris could wipe out with a sneeze. And, do not fear, but God Himself will intervene to stop the insanity of the mohammedan abomination, just like he did for the abomination of the other false gods throughout history. Look what hapened to the Aztecs, the Incas, the Bablylnians, the Greeks and Romans, The Medes and Persians, the Ammonites, and Hittites and many other "great civilizatioins" of history. Read the Bible for the truth of History, and the end of the story. Mock Jesus with a comment like that? I pray for your soul. He, as judge of the world, knows the hearts of all men. Israel has re-started the clock of the end-of-time (read Isaiah, Daniel and Ezekial sometime as well as Moses in Deuteronomy 12 and 28) , and you can believe that since it all occurred just as it was prophesied, so will the end-times occur as God said it will. Jerusalem will be where all the action is. Not London. The battle to end all battles will be in the Middle East. And Jesus casts the devil and everyone who does evil into the pit, forever.

But, God HAS provided a way for you to be saved. Nations come and go, and rage against Him. His Name is Jesus Christ. And in His resurrection from the dead, He defeated death and the grave, and everyone will bow their knee to Him. Like it or not. Chuck Norris will too.

Posted by: daviebabie at May 28, 2008 11:13 PM

DavieBabie, you are clearly one of those "end times" moonbat Christians whose religious view is based mostly on the book of Revelations and various Old Testament prophets rather than the Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Your preferred theology and belief system was developed by a charismatic preacher in the 19th century, which became hugely influential in the Southern U.S. but, praise God, not in most of the rest of the Christian world. Christianity did just fine without your perverse theology for 1900 years, and it's the last thing the Christianity needs now.

Posted by: angloirishslav at May 28, 2008 11:31 PM

daviebabie,

I think Matamoros was referring to a particular documentary/movie entitled "Jesus Camp"--Not actively mocking Jesus.

Some of the doings of this bible camp were odd, but I don't think I was as creeped out by them as some people have been, who have seen it. To each his own, as far as entertainment goes.

Jesus was said to be slow to anger...

Posted by: Abscedere at May 29, 2008 12:01 AM

Storm-Rider ;

I agree, the game is underway to make the "New World Order", with the U.N. as the world police.

Agreed also on them using islam to get there, thinking that if things get out of control, they can squash the bug, but they will find islam impossible to do away with.

Many think this is fantasy stuff, but it is ongoing even now ,in full view for all who want to see. Thanks for the link, perhaps it will expose more to what is really going on.

Posted by: Islofob IS-1 at May 29, 2008 12:04 AM

Thanks Anglolrishlav,

I'll be sure to tear out the Book of Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, as well as Matthew 24 and all the rest of those pesky New Testament passages too! about the return of our Lord and Savior like 2 Peter 3:12 "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up." That always bugged me, but since you said we can fuggettaboutit now I feel so much more cozy.

It's funny how these New Testament passages just seem to crop up everywhere you look throughout the Holy scriptures! Thanks for the encouragement on that! Your straw man argument surely helps win one for the Big Gipper.

I don't know what preacher you're talking about, but the Bible predates any 19th century preacher by about . . . 1,900 years! I'll stick with the Bible. It's older. Better. Accurate. 100% so far. Keep your candles lit, He will come "like a thief in the night." Oops, you must have crossed that one out too. It's funny how a moonbat believes the Holy Bible these days and gets such encouragement from fellow "christians". Well, bad is good and good is bad these days, just like the Bible said would happen, and believing the Bible labels us as moonbats. I'd rather be a moonbat for Christ, in whom I live, and breathe and have my being, than trust in a book shredded and sacrificed on the alter of post-modern religious philosophical unbelief. You don't need to believe the Christ is coming again for His Church and to judge the nations. The Bible makes that plain. Just make sure you don't take anyone else downtown with you. That is a worse sin. False teachers are subject to a greater judgement. Those are truly dangerous waters Anglolrishlav. Moonbats for Jesus. Well, God bless you all, and save you too, and to all a good night.

Posted by: daviebabie at May 29, 2008 12:06 AM

Abscedere,

Thanks for the clarification and the citation (ticket).

I receive it.

I do believe that England is not at the center of this issue. And that there is a major correction coming that is based on God's love for the world; he surely will not allow His plans to be overridden, no matter how grim the odds.

Posted by: daviebabie at May 29, 2008 12:16 AM

So long and thanks for all the fish?

Posted by: profitsbeard at May 29, 2008 12:23 AM

daviebabie

you express great disdain for all of us here, and appear to be suggesting that anything other than prayer, emergency evangelism, and patient resignation to the inevitable (even if, in your view, temporary, to be ended by the Second Coming) triumph of Islam over the world, is a waste of time.

I am a Christian. I pray, every Friday, for two things: for the Defeat of the Jihad, and for the Conversion (to Christianity) of Muslims. For ten years I have taken part in the 30 Days Project, Christians spending Ramadan praying for the salvation of Muslims from Islam. I also support mission organisations such as the Bible Society and Church Missionary Society, which are conducting outreach among Muslims.

But I also think it acceptable and worthwhile to at least try to do something on the ordinary, social, political level, to resist the encroachment and depredations of Political Islam. William Wilberforce didn't retreat into a corner and pray, and leave the when, how and where of the Abolition of the Slave Trade, entirely up to God. Neither did Abraham Lincoln. Winston Churchill didn't say: Ah, the Nazis are evil, but God will finish them when He is ready, no need for *us* to try to do anything to resist them, or, heaven forbid, STOP them.

I would like to know - do you think that, apart from prayer, and evangelising among our own people and among Muslims - ANY AND ALL OTHER ACTIVITY undertaken by ordinary people to try to resist, halt, or even roll back the advance of Islam, is entirely futile, and so should not even be attempted?

For example: do you see any point, at all, in Mr Spencer's maintaining this website and attempting to educate and warn people? Or would you rather that he took it down, since he's obviously opposing The March of History as Written in the Prophecies?

Would you, for example, argue that it was a total waste of time for any Christian in a non-Muslim country to try to warn their government about the danger presented by Islamic infiltration of the political process and education system?

Would you, for example, as well as praying and evangelising, ALSO join a campaign to prevent the building of a mosque in your neighbourhood, or the broadcasting of the Muslim call to prayer, by same?

How about if you saw a group of Muslims in a house next door to yours, behaving suspiciously? Would you report them to the Authorities?

Question: what will you do if the seeds that Taize and Francis Schaeffer at L'Abri have been sowing, spring to life, and a Wesley-style, William-Booth style fullscale Christian revival suddenly breaks out and sweeps from one end of Europe to the other, like a bushfire? Europe reconverted. 80% of the Muslim population avalanching into the church and the rest suddenly stripped of power as reinvigorated social, legal and political structures are confidently affirmed and defended? Invasion of Islam...evaporated, like spit on a hot pan?

What if Russia experiences Revival and becomes a Christian commonwealth?

What if China, over the next fifty years, becomes majority Christian and loses its Maoist imperial ambitions, becoming instead a major energiser of christian mission?

None of this is 100% impossible.

Would you be delighted...or, secretly, disappointed, to be cheated, for the moment, of Armageddon?

PS - As I recall, the human sacrifice cult of the Aztecs was not magically destroyed by Divine fiat, by fire from heaven, but by clumsy human agency, by the distinctly imperfect, sinful and ignorant Spanish conquistadores, many of them much more interested in gold than in God.

The armies of pagan Rome, not fire from heaven, ended the Moloch-worshipping Carthaginians. (See G K Chesterton, 'The Everlasting Man', chapter entitled 'The War of the Gods and the Demons').

English soldiers and officials stamped out the cult of the Thuggees.

The Nazi concentration camps were broken open not by angels with fiery swords, but by grubby, all-too-human American GIs, who had fought their way through Europe in bloody battles.

I'm not arguing that God had nothing to do with any of this, in fact I'm sure He was very much involved; but rather, that God seems to prefer to act in and through humans, that human choices and actions, made in politics and even in the battlefield, do seem to matter.

I don't see that there is an absolute necessity for the fall of the Empire of Islam to be any different from the fall of Carthage, or of the Aztecs.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at May 29, 2008 12:53 AM

daviebabie said

And Chuck Norris can't hold a candle to the Christ when He comes back to reestablish His kingdom.

Whoa, take it easy there on Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris isn't afraid of the dark, the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris may wear Superman pajamas, but Superman wears Chuck Norris pajamas. Chuck Norris doesn't read books, he stares them down until he gets the information he wants. Before he goes to sleep at night, the boogeyman checks his closet for Chuck Norris. If an irresistable force meets an immovable object, who wins? Chuck Norris. Do not, under any circumstances, take Chuck Norris' name in vain. Do not, repeat not, mess with Chuck Norris.

Posted by: special_guest at May 29, 2008 1:25 AM

Dear daviebabie,

I don't know what preacher you're talking about, but the Bible predates any 19th century preacher by about . . . 1,900 years! I'll stick with the Bible. ....False teachers are subject to a greater judgement.

Since you don't seem to know, the preacher you are talking about is John Nelson Darby (propagated by the Scofield Reference Bible, later by the Ryrie NASB Study Bible), and the ideology you are professing as the impervious and incontrovertible "word of God" is an extraordinarily recent theological aberration called dispensationalism (further propagated of late by the likes of Dallas Theological Seminary and Bob Jones University and the God-awful LaHaye "Left Behind" series, Hal Lindsey, etc.).

Please, stop embarrassing yourself and do some diligence. Do not become the "false preacher" you are so concerned about and strip Matthew 24, Mark 13 and the Revelation of their power. "THIS GENERATION" means "THIS GENERATION", and "WILL SOON COME TO PASS" DOES NOT MEAN AFTER A TWO MILLENIA INTERCULATION. These were jaw-dropping accurate confirmed predictive prophecies by Christ himself.

Your homework assignment:

Read:

1) Read: Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation by Kenneth L. Gentry
2) Read: The Parousia by James Stewart Russell
3) Repent

Avoid the trap of full preterism. Dump Charles Stanley. Pick up R.C. Sproul. Simultaneously continue your study of Christianity, history and Islam, then come back and rejoin the debate.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at May 29, 2008 1:55 AM

CC - are the two books you're citing centered around "Replacement Theology"?

Posted by: champ at May 29, 2008 2:06 AM

CC -

R.C. Sproul certainly subscribes to Replacement Theology - something many would consider to be heresy - I being one of them. Recommending anyone read Sprouls books is, in my opinion, pointing them in the wrong direction. I generally agree with you, CC, but not on Replacement Theology, because this teaching has it's roots in anti-semetism.

This link offers an in-depth study on Replacement Theology:
http://www.shema.com/Combating%20Replacement%20Theology/crt-005.php

Posted by: champ at May 29, 2008 2:29 AM

More Yemeni Than Russians? Russia's got 'em beat. Expect an Islamic majority by 2030. The non-Muslims simply don't have children anywhere close to replacement levels. The Muslims are busy makin' junior jihadis.

Perhaps Rome will be able to call upon a burgeoning Catholic population to the South in Africa that has not rejected fertility or laid down for Islam to come protect the city.

Posted by: A Simple Sinner at May 29, 2008 5:08 AM

champ,

It would appear I will have to update myself on Sproul. It's still early (?late) for me, and I've just found "An Open Letter to Evangelicals and Other Interested Parties: The People of God, the Land of Israel, and the Impartiality of the Gospel" initiated by Knox, to which Sproul is reportedly a signatory. On a brief "skim through", I can say the last two paragraphs, in particular, turned my stomach. Hopefully, I will be able to get back to sleep. For now, and regarding "daviebabie", assuming the genesis of this, I reiterate, "Avoid the trap of full preterism". Again, assuming, Sproul would not be the first to fall in that hole. Of interest, I cannot find where the Knox website currently posts or references the letter or continues to host the list of signatories.

From a Christian perspective, some scriptures may be fulfilled through more than one event (e.g. the curse of Deuternomy 28). Likewise, some prophecies may have primary and subsequent fulfillments (e.g. type and antitype pairings). Very specific prophecies (i.e. "this generation") usually have very specific fulfillments.

Directive and admonishments that are not time limited are generally not time limited. For example, I will be very interested to see, if Knox has maintained this position, how they have dealt with

Romans 15:27b
For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews' spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

Romans 11:28-29 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable (some translations, without repentance).

because I certainly take these very seriously, and take the "material blessings" to include giving Patriot missiles and tactical and non-tactical nuclear weapons, as well as my permanent hand of friendship, to the current state of Israel.

I still will not throw out Sproul's earlier books, but until I explore this further, those after his signing the above, particularly the gut-wrenching deplorable phrase, "to promise all humanitarian sympathy and practical support for those on both sides ["Palestinians" and Israelis] who are suffering in this current vicious cycle of atrocity and displacement", for me, will be suspect and read with caution.

Thanks for the heads up, champ. As to your other questions, Gentry's book primarily relates to dating the Revelation and reads more like a doctrinal thesis, compellingly dating it relative to Nero's, rather than Domitian's reign. I read Russell as an eye-opener, but not as the gospel itself. This is what I intended for "daviebabie" as an antidote to his/her naive, squawking, pretentious, fatalistic dispensationalism, i.e. a much needed dose of humility (not unlike what I just got regarding Sproul). As far as my personal beliefs, I do not believe in a future "rapture", or a subsequent thousand year earthly reign. When Christ comes, it will be the end, followed immediately by The Judgement.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at May 29, 2008 7:51 AM

....claims of Christ are sensitively explained.

Sensitively explained?????? How about boldly proclaimed!!!

This seems like it's one of the big differences between The U.S. and England. Yes, our politicians also act cowardly and we have groups similiar to what England has (i.e. cair) in that they undermine our fight against islam.

However, at least from what I read, very few religious our laypeople publicily defend and proclaim Christianity (of course you secular progressive "elites" of England can pat yourself on the back for that).

In the U.S. we have a strong conservative protestant/evangelical and Catholic presence. We will stand up and fight in the public arena for Christianity. We don't always agree with each other, but we are not afraid to proclaim the faith.

Of course secular progressives are doing all they can to stop that in the U.S., and through legal intimidation they are doing a good job. All while embracing islam, definitly shades of England. All you who donate to the ACLU take notice you are enabling this.....

Posted by: adobe at May 29, 2008 7:53 AM

matamoros:

"If recent reports of trends in religious observance prove to be correct, then in some 30 years the mosque will be able to claim that, religiously speaking, the UK is an Islamic nation…"

That's the problem here. The CoE authorities talk as if Islam were just some alternative Christian denomination just vying for a place at the table among equals. These CoE bishops have become so open minded their brains fell out long ago. They have become so thoroughly liberal/post-Christian that they are unable to identify, assess, and take action against evil in their midst. Just exactly what does the CoE bishops think an "Islamic nation" would look like? Does Islam recognize Western human rights? Does Islam allow freedom of thought on any subject? Does Islam tolerate any competitors spiritually or in the secular realm? Do you think any British politicians (let alone that pallid, pusillanimous Prince of Wales soon to be King of England) will show leadership on the order of say, Winston Churchill to turn this situation around? The CoE bishops have effectively surrendered without a shot.

Posted by: Theseus at May 29, 2008 8:36 AM

Peaceful Christianity is not going to save any area. The peaceful Christians always move away. Bethleham is not Christian and neither is Constantinople. And at the rate the Italians are having babies the Vatican will be the worlds largest mosque. Or a museum like Hagia Sophia.

Repressive Christianity could hold off the muslims. Why do think the Pope's were so aggressive a thousand years ago? Italy had been invaded by the muslims. Spain had been invaded. And several other European countries had been invaded. The pope was trying to force Christianity back into the lives of the European's to drive out islam. Remember the various Inquisitions? There were several and they were the response to the muslim invasions.

Do we want that? Most don't. The alternative is being taken over by muslims. Which is much worse. It will happen. But they will not have the happy outcome they hope for. And then they will have no where to escape. The whole world will regress.

The only thing that will save the west is Nationalism. Or apparently the newspeak all incompassing word - fascism.

Christianity has been pushed out everywhere muslims move in. It's foolish to think history will not continue following the same path when nothing has changed.

Posted by: Borg at May 29, 2008 8:37 AM

Socialist Multiculturalism must be destroyed as a political force in both Europe and America. We in America have the advantage of a more religious people, an incredible foundation of liberty, fewer Muslim immigrants, and two wide oceans.

Posted by: Storm-Rider

Britain once had two continents and two oceans between itself and India/Pakistan. It closed that gap all by itself. We are doing the same.
We may have "fewer Muslim immigrants" but we don't need them, since we have the Nation of Islam right here. Our foundations of liberty are being chipped away as we are told we must give up our isolationism and become one with the world. We have the WTO, the World Court and a lot of international bodies set to tax Americans for the benefit of everyone else.
As for the "more religious people" they are being sidelined each and every day. Their views aren't welcome in the public sphere, unless they're Muslims. In the interests of multiculturalism our best and brightest are being told to just go away or to sit down and let the "disenfranchised" have their turn. American history is being watered down or changed wherever it doesn't meet the multiculti needs of the day.
Self-inflicted wounds are hard to recover from. We gave away any advantage we had in the 1960s. Big ships turn slowly and this one took forty years but it's finally turned. America's best days are probably behind her. At least we can take comfort in the knowledge that we did it to ourselves. No one forced any of this on us.

Posted by: PMK at May 29, 2008 8:55 AM

Before he goes to sleep at night, the boogeyman checks his closet for Chuck Norris.
Posted by: special_guest

I do that too. You never know where, or when Norris might pop up...

England is experiencing the results of demographic jihad. America is experiencing that as well, especially in larger cities. Do to it's large population and land demographics, it will take a little longer for Islam to establish itself in America, as it has in Britain. The American gov and the British gov are on the same page of deliberately
abandoning the people to the invading muslim hordes, who when they get here multiply rapidly.
Demographic jihad = vote jihad = sharia.
It's just a matter of time and the Islamic populations will vote themselves into power.
In America it is called 'The American Way'...I don't know what they call it in the UK...

Posted by: duh_swami at May 29, 2008 10:24 AM

Daviebabie, the poster Abscedere is correct. I was not "mocking Jesus" as you evidently perceived, but referring to the documentary Jesus Camp. If you do not understand what I meant by "weirdness", then you clearly haven’t seen it. Or maybe you have.

Three things in response to your post(s).

1) Jihadwatch is not the place for proselytising. This struggle is one for people of all faiths and people of none, a fact neatly reflected in the make-up of the JW editorial team. For those of us non-Christians who visit here - Jews, Hindus, or even fervent atheists - your post was insulting. It implies that you have no respect for us or our beliefs, and view us as "infidels" who can only be saved by converting to your religion. In short, precisely the same view as that of the Islamists. If that really is your view, then I suggest that you keep it to yourself - it does not belong on here.

2) I certainly do not need you telling me to read the Tanach.

3) You appear to have a Chuck Norris (pbuh) fixation. I suggest that you need to study A Force of One, Missing in Action 2 and Walker, Texas Ranger in its entirety, and think carefully before taking his name in vain again. Remember, Chuck Norris doesn’t sleep - he waits.

Posted by: Matamoros at May 29, 2008 12:07 PM

Theseus:

“The CoE authorities talk as if Islam were just some alternative Christian denomination just vying for a place at the table among equals. These CoE bishops have become so open minded their brains fell out long ago. They have become so thoroughly liberal/post-Christian that they are unable to identify, assess, and take action against evil in their midst…”

I wasn’t disagreeing with any of that, only stating that a future Britain that has Islam as its most practiced religion, and a Britain under Islamic rule, were two entirely different things. Don’t be so quick to write off all the CofE bishops, though. The redoubtable Michael Nazir Ali has again spoken out, warning that Britain’s moral vacuum (a very real phenemonon) is facilitating the rise of what he terms “radical Islam”.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/021210.php#comments

Is it too early for nominations for the International Anti-Dhimmi of the Year?

Posted by: Matamoros at May 29, 2008 1:04 PM

Hi CC,

Thanks for writing, and you found more substantive information on Sproul than I ever imagined! Sorry if I caused you a sleep-challenged night, LOL, but anything hinting at Replacement Theology makes me madder than a hornet - so to speak - because of it's aforementioned anti-semetic roots.

"Avoid the trap of full preterism".

I have never heard of the term "full preterism" until you mentioned it, and a quick study I think reveals that full-preterists believe that Jesus came back in 70 A.D.? Did I read that correctly? If this is their position, then I would have to completely disagree with this view, because it's pretty obvious that Christ has not returned yet. In fact, it's ridiculous to claim that He did return during that time as I always thought that Christ's return centered around the "generation" that witnessed Israel/Jerusalem reborn; specifically Jerusalem being captured after the Six Day War, which occured in 1967. How long is a generation? 40 years? 70 years? Some have calculated a generation to be 52 years. Regardless, Christ has not returned, so on that we can both agree.

This is an interesting time-line on Israel/Jerusalem that you may want to study:
http://www.centuryone.com/hstjrslm.html

"As far as my personal beliefs, I do not believe in a future "rapture", or a subsequent thousand year earthly reign. When Christ comes, it will be the end, followed immediately by The Judgement."

Personally, I believe in a rapture, but then my husband does not; but we can all three agree on The Judgement.

Some things we just won't know until it's time to know, but one thing is for certain, and that's that we are to love one another regardless of our different positions.

Take care, my friend, your sister in Christ!

Posted by: champ at May 29, 2008 2:07 PM

P.S. CC -

I've been doing a little more research today on the "preterist" view, and I have to say this it is quite interesting. I found this website that argues against this position, and I thought you too might find it educational:

http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=69

Excerpt from link above:

"The last few months have been a time in which I have been involved in a couple of debates with preterists. Preterism teaches that most, if not all, of the Book of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24-25; Mark 13; Luke 21) were fulfilled in conjunction with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in a.d. 70. If this notion is granted, then almost all of Bible prophecy is not to be anticipated in the future, but is past history. Their false scheme springs forth from a misinterpretation of Matthew 24:34 (see also Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32), by which they launch an upside-down view of eschatology, which does not look to the future but instead gazes at the past."

Preterist View:

"Preterist Gary DeMar says, "the generation that was in existence when Jesus addressed His disciples would not pass away until all the events that preceded verse 34 came to pass."[1] In contrast with fellow preterist, Dr. Kenneth Gentry, DeMar believes that this passage requires that all of Matthew 24 and 25 must have been fulfilled in some way by a.d. 70 through the Roman invasion and destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.[2] DeMar says, "Every time 'this generation' is used in the New Testament, it means, without exception, the generation to whom Jesus was speaking."[3] DeMar's assertion is simply not true! "This generation" in Hebrews 3:10 clearly refers to the generation of Israelites that wandered in the wilderness for 40 years during the Exodus."

Thanks for warning against this view, Concerned Citizen, as it certainly is a false teaching at best!

Take care!

Posted by: champ at May 29, 2008 7:17 PM

champ,

Please keep in mind that I was warning against full preterism, not partial preterism, which I believe is true. "The Pretrib Research Center" is exactly the kind of site sponser (LaHaye, et al) that I would also warn you against. I would hope that you would admit that using DeMar's hyperbole above to include the use of a Greek "historical present", is at best a straw man argument, and thus disingenuous of Dr. Ice. LaHaye also has a lot of money at stake over his publishing income. Individual followers of dispensationalism for the most part do not even know there are alternatives, but when confronted are faced with having to abandon the years they've spent reconciling this tortured eschatology.

Dispensationalists want to downplay the significance of Matthew 24, because it gives them more material to confabulate with. The destruction of the Jerusalem temple in AD 70 was a monumentous point in history, and accompanied by reports of fascinating phenomena, reported by people who had no incentive to report it.

Prior to the Messiah's crucifixion in 30 A.D., the Romans had taken away the Sanhedrin's authority to execute criminals. The last judgement that the Sanhedrin made from the Temple was to sentence the Messiah to death. (Talmud Sanh.1:1,7:2). Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the Sanhedrin was BANISHED (from the Chamber of Hewn Stone) and sat in the trading station (on the Temple Mount) - Shabbat 15a

Babylonian Talmud
"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot did not come up in the right hand, nor did the crimson stripe become white, nor did the westernmost light burn; and the doors of the heikhal (the Holy Place of the Temple) opened of their own accord, until Rabbi Yochanon ben Zakkai rebuked them. He said to it [the Temple]:
'O heikhal, heikhal, why do you alarm yourself? I know full well that you are destined to be destroyed, for Zechariah ben Iddo has already prophesied concerning you 'Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour the cedars' (Zech. 11:1).'
Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b
"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves"
Soncino version, Yoma 39b

Jerusalem Talmud:
"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open" (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157). [the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE]

REVIEW
1) The Western light would not stay lit.
A particular Menorah that was to be kept lit at all times went out every day for 40 years. Apparently nothing could keep the lamp lit.
2) The crimson thread remained crimson.
A Day of Atonement ritual from the 3rd century B.C.E. noted a particular thread turning color from red to white, or vice versa, depending on God’s apparent displeasure or approval of God’s people and leadership. For 40 years before the Temple’s destruction, the thread was consistently red. A portion of the crimson sash was attached to the door of the Temple before the goat was sent into the wilderness. The sash would turn from red to white as the goat met its end, signaling to the people that God had accepted their sacrifices and their sins were forgiven. The Mishnah tells us that 40 years before the destruction of the Temple, the sash stopped turning white.
3) The lot for the the Lord always came up in the left hand.
The lottery of the goats on the Day of Atonement consistently came up black for the right hand of the High Priest for 40 years. The people believed it was a good omen if the tablet marked "For the Lord" was drawn out by the priest’s right hand, but from 30 AD to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD and for those forty years only--the High Priest drew the "For Azazel" tablet with his right hand.
4)The gates of the Temple opened by themselves every night.
Finally the Temple doors (behind the curtain that tore in two) were opening of their own accord at night (when the people were not around). This also happened for 40 years, and relates back to the one sign mentioned by Josephus. Forty years before the Temple was destroyed. . .the gates of the Hekel [Holy Place] opened by themselves, until Rabbi Yohanan B. Zakkai rebuked them [the gates] saying, Hekel, Hekel, why alarmist thou us? We know that thou art destined to be destroyed... Jewish Talmud in Yoma 39b
http://www.askelm.com/prophecy/p040701.htm

Wars of the Jews
Josephus made these miracle claims:
(1) a heifer being led to the temple altar gave birth to a lamb,
(2) one night the temple altar glowed with such brilliance that it gave the appearance of daylight for half an hour,
(3) the eastern gate of the temple, which had taken twenty men to shut "with difficulty," opened one night of its own accord, and
(4) soldiers and chariots were seen surrounding the city of Jerusalem in the clouds (6:5.3). Of this last "certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon," Josephus said, "I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those who saw it" (v:297).

Thus also, before the Jewish rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus [Nisan] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day-time; which light lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was being led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner, [court of the temple,] which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now, those that kept watch in the temple came thereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared, that this signal foreshewed the DESOLATION that was coming upon them - Josephus, Wars of the Jews, IV,5,3.
http://www.windowview.org/jandg.files/frms/talmds.frm.html

The first century parousia associated with the above supernatural phenomena, and especially the seige conditions of the fall of the temple, and the permanence of the end of the sacrificial system, according to partial preterists, is in general a metaphorical "coming on the clouds" of judgement, not intended to negate a future return consonant with Acts 1:11.

I would take great issue with Dr. Ice's statement,

"This generation" is governed or controlled grammatically by the phrase "all these things." All these things refer to the judgments that Christ pronounces in Matthew 22-23.

"All these things" is as much governed by "This generation" as vice versa. They either happened or not, and the prophecy is either true or not. It is the wooden literalism of the dispensationalists that fails to see the Old Testament allusions in New Testament prophecy.
It is unbelivable that they even accept John the Baptist as the "Elijah who was to come". I think Ice is dangerously belittling and distorting Christ's prophecy.

Dr. Ice's other statement:

I do not think that any of the events in Matthew 24:4-31 occurred in the first century.

is quite ludicrous. Does he deny verse 9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death...", that the apostles (save John) were slain?

Then he quotes Gentry

Dr. Gentry says, "I will argue that this passage speaks of the a.d. 70 collapse of geo-political Israel. Let us note that there is biblical warrant for speaking of national catastrophe in terms of cosmic destruction."

but fails to present Gentry's arguement, trying to force the reader to discount it without hearing it. The rest of Ice's article is similar. I strongly recommend you read Gentry's work for yourself, because you certainly won't appreciate it from LaHaye and Ice's obfuscations.

My original point was to relieve this site of the pompous dogmatism of a particular poster by suggesting things were not as clear as portrayed. This debate has already gone well beyond what the site director would approve. I only went this far because I felt I had been misunderstood to be negating what I feel is the proper view.

Best wishes to you in your ongoing studies of eschatology.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at May 29, 2008 9:38 PM

Thank you, CC, for clarifying your position; but please humor me one more time by explaining in short detail what this means: "Please keep in mind that I was warning against full preterism, not partial preterism, which I believe is true."

Specifically, what is "partial preterism"? I am deeply curious, as I have never heard this term before, and I am always seeking to learn more about Bible prophecy and it's variations. Thank you!

Posted by: champ at May 29, 2008 10:23 PM

....or if you have a link on the subject that you could direct me to, then that would relieve our site director of possibly editing this debate.

Posted by: champ at May 29, 2008 10:27 PM

Small point chaps. Many posters have talked of "England". England exists of course but it is not a country. The UK is a country of course so perhaps "British" should be used instead. Scots and Welsh get a tad irate at such inapropriate usage. Cheers.

Posted by: ewha1 at May 30, 2008 11:59 AM