This is sick! This has been going on for the past thousand years the Muslims before Pakistan existed. They would Kidnap Hindu women and took to Saudi Arabia as sex slaves. They also kidnapped boys and young girls as is the case here. We see this happening in all UMMAH countries. We see this in North Africa, we see this in Bangladesh. We see this in countries not Islamic but have Muslims fighting to have their own lands in Thailand, and Philippines. This is a way to convert and keep non Muslim women into the fold of Islam. Sharia laws are above any other laws and to the they have every right to kidnap infidel girls because Islam views them as booty.

Posted by: savsiv at July 18, 2008 10:57 AM

Of course simply one of a million reasons that evil Islam should be outlawed worldwide, to the extent possible, anyway.
And the way to start is to TALK about the religion.

Posted by: confused at July 18, 2008 11:06 AM

For starters, if the kidnapped girls went to a local church that was associated with some Western Christian missionary grouop, then the missionary organization should hire a team of bad-ass mercenaries to bring the wrath of God down on these savages, starting with the fruit vendor, who surely needs to be mozambiqued.

But, they'll just pray and add to their tithe, hoping their guilt will be assuaged by their temperant, tolerant, other-cheek-turning fear.

Don't get me wrong ~ I'm a Christian. But I think the church is full of posturing moral cowards.

Wasn't it Abraham who got a bunch of his men together and went to rescue his kidnapped kin from Arabs?

Posted by: undaunted at July 18, 2008 11:11 AM

"The girls' uncle does not conceal his preoccupation, and denounces to AsiaNews that the Muslims involved in the kidnapping are acting as a "gang", recruiting the girls in order to "make them work in a bordello".

The uncle had better be careful what he charges these kidnappers with. If he can convince the court that these girls are working in a bordello, it could result in their execution for prostitution.

These Christians aren't going to win, no matter what.

If our government is determined to import people into this country from Islamic countries, it should be Christians like these. No American politician is going to convince them of the high moral values of Islam. They've lived it.

Posted by: rational at July 18, 2008 11:26 AM

How horrifying. I have nieces around those ages. I cannot imagine this happening to them.

Posted by: Mo at July 18, 2008 12:05 PM

"father and son both stressed the 'complete willingness of the girl to contract marriage'".

From Sahih Bukhari (9:86:98): The Prophet said, "A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent; and the matron should not be married till she is asked whether she agrees to marry or not." It was asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How will she(the virgin) express her consent?" He said, "By keeping silent." Some people said, "If a virgin is not asked for her consent and she is not married, and then a man, by playing a trick presents two false witnesses that he has married her with her consent and the judge confirms his marriage as a true one, and the husband knows that the witnesses were false ones, then there is no harm for him to consummate his marriage with her and the marriage is regarded as valid."

Book 86 of Bukhari from which this story of virtue is taken is aptly entitled "Tricks."

Posted by: Chatillon at July 18, 2008 12:44 PM

My comments suddenly disappeared?

Posted by: IndianTiger at July 18, 2008 12:55 PM

Puts a little perspective on the feminist mantra that the USA is still a "sexist" country.

Posted by: Cornelius at July 18, 2008 1:02 PM

That's justice Shariah style.

Just think, the entire world will live by those standards when Islam rules...

Posted by: duh_swami at July 18, 2008 1:09 PM

This barbaric practice ought to be outlawed by UN states before trying to muzzle any criticism of Islam.

Posted by: IndianTiger at July 18, 2008 1:09 PM

I'm with rational on this, let's rescue the Christians from these muslim countries and send them our muslims.

The idea that we keep giving a government that condones this behavior money is beyond comprehension. We are talking about Pakistan, a moderate muslim ally in the "war on terror" here aren't we?

And why any women would voluntarily convert to this backward, barbaric religion defies all logic.

Just a quick question here, any word from CAIR or ISNA regarding this situation? I didn't think so.

Posted by: walterc at July 18, 2008 1:15 PM

Disgusting. As if a 10 year old can make a decision like that, come on! Even the 13 year old couldn't. The decision was made my Muslim men, as if we didn't clue into that! Do they actually think we would swallow that drivel?

Posted by: gymgal at July 18, 2008 1:20 PM

Pathetic! How is it possible that our goof balls in Washington and the MSM encourage this conduct by not talking about it.

Posted by: Spot on at July 18, 2008 1:20 PM

OOPS, "my" Muslim men, should be "by" Muslim men.

Ugh what a typo....

Posted by: gymgal at July 18, 2008 1:21 PM

Very tragic but also very Islamic.

Posted by: Wellington at July 18, 2008 1:23 PM

We need to arm India.

It's clear (at least to me) that we share a common enemy

Posted by: Mr Ape Pig at July 18, 2008 1:33 PM

Posted by: walterc: I'm with rational on this, let's rescue the Christians from these muslim countries and send them our muslims.

Exchange populations, as has happened many times in history, or expulsion of Muslims from the West.

Posted by: DP111 at July 18, 2008 2:21 PM

"have converted in a legitimate manner to Islam", and for this reason they cannot be "restored to their family of origin". Setting aside the request from their father to regain custody of his daughters, the judge also admitted the "validity" of the marriage of the girls to two Muslims.

Rape, kidnapping and violence being valid methods of conversion.

Posted by: tanstaafl at July 18, 2008 2:37 PM

both the judge and the men would apear to be working together.
In court, moreover, father and son both stressed the "complete willingness of the girl to contract marriage". i would ask how? they showed complete willingness was it by remaining silent (thanks chatilon)
"From Sahih Bukhari (9:86:98): The Prophet said, "A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent; and the matron should not be married till she is asked whether she agrees to marry or not." It was asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How will she(the virgin) express her consent?" He said, "By keeping silent."
yA THEy HAD BEEN KIDNAPED AND WERE SCARED I WOULD THINK, I kNOw I WOULD STAY SILENT
but thats not giving consent but in the sexuly
perveted and child rapeing madness of pakistaniny islam it seem like they will do anything to get a young prepubesent vergin child including lying and cheating aka Taqiyya and Kitman and we see the same actions by muslims in eyegpt involving musslim kidnapers and coptic girls

Posted by: ISLAMSNOTFORME at July 18, 2008 2:49 PM

We need to arm India.

It's clear (at least to me) that we share a common enemy

Mr. Ape Pig

I totally agree. If US and Israel help India with sophisticated armaments and intelligence, we (Indians) can neutralize the terrorists in Pakistan.

Posted by: IndianTiger at July 18, 2008 3:05 PM

Barbaric! Outrage! That this has the sanction of Islamic law, and that such is set forth in Bukhari, Book 86--may the Almighty and Everliving GOD, Y W W H Shabaoth, answer these inhuman crimes, and thrust The False Prophet, his False God, and his Doctrine of Devils and False Creed into Torments and everlasting darkness.

Posted by: John C at July 18, 2008 3:15 PM

In the Islamic hell hole known as Egypt, Christian girls and even a few married women are kidnapped raped, tortured and are forced to say that they have converted with their own free will. The police and the judicial system works in concert with the kidnappers according to a former leader of an Islamic group formerly known as Ahmed Shalqami. The same thing happens in Iraq and beautiful Christian girls are sold to brothels in Iraq and in the Gulf. One girl that was ransomed has committed suicide. Youtube has a film of a teenage Coptic girl named Marin who the Coptic groups raised a stink about in which she is shown wearing a Hijab and basically reciting a script saying how wonderful is Islam. A stupid Coptic bishop who is widely hated by those who know him in the Coptic community in Egypt and abroad was taped saying that there was no kidnapping of Coptic girls. Muslim groups, the same ones in fact that are linked to kidnapings rings or sympathetic followers abroad have posted the recording dozens of tome on youtube and other sites.

Posted by: have_mercy at July 18, 2008 3:17 PM

Y H W H

Posted by: John C at July 18, 2008 3:22 PM

Were they 9 and 12 when initially kidnapped?

ANY person who is kidnapped, no matter the age, should not be held accountable for a decision he or she made while being held hostage. (Stockholm Syndrome at best; violent coersion at worst).

These girls will never be PROSTITUTES because this implies a voluntary action on their part. They are sex slaves. Period. End of analysis.

We should close Pakistani embassies and consulates in the US and refuse to admit Pakistani citizens into our country until justice is served.

Posted by: former liberal WF at July 18, 2008 3:31 PM

"I'm with rational on this, let's rescue the Christians from these muslim countries and send them our muslims."

Didn't this happen in the 50s between Greece and Turkey?

Posted by: Big Luke at July 18, 2008 3:31 PM

What drives me crazy that the Christians from Islamic lands are barred from entering the west and once they are here have a hard time getting asylum. Consular officials and immigration officials are entirely unsympathetic to their plight. The worst Muslims, and that is really saying something, are coming to the West in droves and are welcomed with open arms. Seeing how well the Muslims are treated and how bad the Christians and other non-Islamic minority are treated have garnered such a resentment in me that approaches racist proportions. Seeing the worst kinds of injustice levied against the most defenseless of people, people that are no different than my own family except in fortune, all while seeing either the indifference or even the complicity of Western officials have filled me with wrath. The Muslim is so well liked in the West because most modern Western people must be shabby, immoral and worst yet, cowardly.

Posted by: have_mercy at July 18, 2008 3:34 PM

India is fully armed with nuclear and if provoked beyond a certain limit, will strike back. My Hindu friends have an ancient history of many
battles fought by great warriors...they are not Buddists or Christians and do not feel obligated to "turn the other cheek".
A great book to read is "Understanding Muhammad: a psychobiography" by Ali Sina. He shows that Muhammad was a narcissist who invented Allah as an alter-ego to sanction all his desires and managed to convince his followers to believe whatever he told them.
In other words, the "relgion" should be called "Muhammadism" since it really is about Muhammad.

Posted by: Slytheryn at July 18, 2008 3:41 PM

have_mercy,

Excellent post. The tragedy is that the American public keeps electing the same ideologues to office, so nothing will ever get done to correct this injustice.

And they're about to send an even worse ideologue to the white house, namely Obama, who'll make it even worse for the world's Christians.

Posted by: rational at July 18, 2008 4:02 PM

The girls' uncle does not conceal his preoccupation, and denounces to AsiaNews that the Muslims involved in the kidnapping are acting as a "gang", recruiting the girls in order to "make them work in a bordello".

This alarm has also been heard by the Catholic commission for justice and peace (NCJP) in the country, which confirms the words of Khalid Raheel: the kidnappers are believed to be human traffickers linked to prostitution, known to the police and under the protection of some local politicians.

"For these unscrupulous people", charges Naeem Asghar, local coordinator of the NCJP, marriage is a pretence in order to control the girls, run their lives and exploit them for their own business purposes".

I wonder if the "arch-bishops" and the "chief justices" (such as Lord High whatever his face is in London) of certain Western countries are aware of this in their pompous bleating to incorporate sharia as supplementary to the justice system in the West?

Perhaps they have?

Maybe to them this isn't so much PC/Multiculturalism as it pure capitalism from which they personally can prosper?

"Tolerance and understanding between cultures," they squeal like pigs at the trough -- but all the while I suspect they scent the sweet fragrance of profit wafting above the stench of an enterprise such as the one described in this article.

Posted by: witness at July 18, 2008 4:27 PM

Pretty atrocious indeed.

Little mention of this in mainstream media, wondering if it has anything to do with protecting Islams tarnished image no matter what (the PC norm)...

Decent overview here: Pakistan Muslim Judge Ratifies Kidnapped Christian Girls Marriage

Posted by: NorthernLiberty at July 18, 2008 4:28 PM

Perhaps they have?

should read ... Perhaps they have considered such possibilities?

Posted by: witness at July 18, 2008 4:33 PM

Where are the moderate muslims ?

Of all continent we should harass Pakistani government,
So that he made free the poor little girls !

Posted by: Baudricourt at July 18, 2008 4:52 PM

If any of you commenters were there on the scene, would you have traded your life for the safety of each of these girls? (because that is what it comes down to)...you fight off the kidnappers as best you can, then they call on their buddies to form a lynch mob, where you, the girls and the entire family are put to the torch after having been doused with petrol. Seems most of you have never experienced violence first hand, as your words clearly indicate.

Again, these folks are obviously bullies called muslims, who only understand excruciating pain. If you are unwilling to mete it out, who will?
Marisol? Mr. Spencer? Mr. Fitzgerald?

I personally witnessed a kidnapping and later testified against the criminals in a foreign court. The victims screams as she was being kidnapped at gunpoint were unbearable. If I ever see that situation again, I know what it is I must do, including kiss my own life goodbye. I recommend arming yourself because no one else will save you, or your daughters and sons.

Posted by: No More Ham, Ed at July 18, 2008 5:05 PM

I totally agree with you, No More Ham, Ed.

I've been the investigator in kidnappings and other brutal crimes.

You're right.

Posted by: undaunted at July 18, 2008 5:32 PM

In fact, I've made some suggestions viz your experience and sagacious advice:

http://freemendo.typepad.com/undaunted/2008/01/honor-killers.html

Posted by: undaunted at July 18, 2008 5:40 PM

This is a direct result of this countries dependence on Muslim oil. This country should have been energy independent 40 years ago. If we were, maybe the U.S government would loudly protest atrocities like this, but because of the shortsightedness of generations of Presidents and Congresses, we are so frightened of an oil boycott, that we won't take a moral stand for anything, except, of course, to condemn fictional discrimination against Muslims.

It's disgusting that such a great civilization is goverened by the pygmies that govern us today.

Posted by: rational at July 18, 2008 5:45 PM

I can imagine the terror and fear in these young girls. This is who the US congress is going to give billions of dollars of aid in order to win the hearts and minds of Pakistanis.

How can the US congress give aid to a country that at every single turn will commit gross and atrocious human rights violation. Joe Biden is a moron to even suggest by given hard earned tax dollars in his words, "the bill was meant to demonstrate that the US was not a fair-weather ally but an all-weather friend of Pakistan." Joe Biden does not speak for Americans he speaks for Mohammedans, at least in my case.

Here is the link:
http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/index.php?sid=382836

Posted by: savsiv at July 18, 2008 5:50 PM

*This* is an absolute abomination. I feel physically ill at such a arrogant wickedness: it is exactly on a par with the hysterical adulation that the Arab Muslim world has been pouring out at the feet of hideous Samir Kuntar.

If majority-Christian Western countries had any moral awareness remaining, this story would be on the front pages of all our newspapers, it would be running on every TV channel, and tabled in every Parliament. All 'aid' to this vile Islamic entity which is Pakistan, would cease immediately; and no Pakistani Muslim should *ever* be permitted to set foot in a Western country, ever again.

Let all fools who even consider any recognition of sharia anywhere in the West, reflect upon this story and know that the deeds of those evil monsters, who have brazenly kidnapped two little girls and will probably use them as slaves, are - under sharia - COMPLETELY LEGAL. After all: the slavers are merely imitating the sacralised example of that pirate, rapist and slave-trader, Mohammed.

No More Ham, Ed - I fully understand what you're saying. At present - for the present - few of us are likely to be personally faced with such a choice.

However: Hugh...if you are reading this, perhaps you should share, yet again, the story of what happened to your brother, in a bank in England.

have-mercy, I can understand your rage and frustration, that our countries are shutting their gates against desperate Christians (and other non-Muslim fugitives from jihad and from the seven hells of sharia), while blithely admitting thousands of potentially murderous Muslims. I am sure that many others here share those feelings.

Those of us who are Christians, and those who are Jews, might consider re-reading Psalm 9, Psalm 10, and Psalm 12, 'with intent'.

Every Christian reading or posting here should make sure that the three articles, posted here on jihadwatch, that have told this horrible story, are printed out in full, and given to the following people: your parish priest or pastor; the head of your church (bishop, archbishop, etc); and your Member of Parliament. If you know a journalist, it should go to him or her, also.

We will never reach a point at which actions such as those I am imagining in my second paragraph, become possible, unless the consciousness-raising effort vis a vis Western political and religious leaders makes a quantum leap.

I am not a Catholic, but I will be sending this story to Archbishop George Pell, just in case it hasn't appeared on his radar screen.

Donations to advocacy groups such as the Barnabas Fund and Release International or Voice of the Martyrs might also be a suitable practical response to this atrocity.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at July 18, 2008 6:09 PM

Undaunted...thank you for your kind comment. I too was in law enforcement for a time...the brutal domestic violence was too much. Often, both the bloddied female victim and her boyfriend, the perp, turn on the responding officers in a psychotic manner.

Dumbledoresarmy..thank you also. Please tell me what happened to Mr. Fitzgeralds brother, if it would not upset him. I GREATLY respect Hughs' writings and tend to read every single comment he posts anywhere online. I will be writing his name in for POTUS, merely out of respect for his studies.

Posted by: No More Ham, Ed at July 18, 2008 6:20 PM

Bosch Fawstin - if you're out there reading - do you think you could do a story in which Pigman swoops in and rescues kidnapped children and inflicts devastating justice upon the kidnappers?

You could team up with 'undaunted' and do some educating, with vivid graphics, to help people prepare to face and handle situations such as No More Ham Ed describes.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at July 18, 2008 6:31 PM

Undaunted... Darn right; your first comment. Where is 'The A-Team' when you need them.
- Death to all terrorists!

Posted by: Hannibal at July 18, 2008 6:50 PM

No More Ham, Ed -

here it is, Hugh's story, is the paragraph that haunted me, from Hugh's posting in the comments field of a jihadwatch/ dhimmiwatch article on the treatment of foreign workers in Saudi Arabia,

"Everyone will have his own anecdotal store of evidence [about human rights abuses and slavery, as practised by the House of Saud, in the own country and even when living in the west].

"Mine consists of what I observed in London, where in a bank a woman in a crowd of a dozen or so who were there accompanying some Arab sheikh who had entered for some banking business, and who broke away, suddenly, and rushed up to my brother-in-law, some twenty-five years ago, and pulled aside her veil, showing blue eyes and blonde hair, and in a native speaker's English pleaded "help me, help me, save me."

"She was suddenly espied by the sheikh's guards, and the entire group exited within minutes, while my brother-in-law, to his eternal shame and chagrin, stood there, confused, not knowing what to do." Posted by: Hugh at July 15, 2004 1:02 PM

I apologise for misremembering slightly, in that it was Hugh's brother-in-law, not his brother.

Who among us would have known, in the four, five seconds available to make a decision, what to do, if we were standing there, in that English bank, 25 years ago, with Hugh, and his brother-in-law?

Here's our hypothetical. Not something happening thousands of miles away, in Pakistan, but something that might possibly happen in a London bank, or in New York, or Paris, or Sydney.

Undaunted - No More Ham, Ed - what would you have done? What would have been best for Hugh's brother-in-law to do? What would or should any of us do, if appealed to in such a place, in such a manner?

Speaking as a woman and a mother, the only thing I could think of doing, off the top of my head, would have been to grab hold of the woman who was asking for help, cling to her like grim death, and scream like a banshee - not the scream of fright, but the scream of rage.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at July 18, 2008 6:52 PM

I wonder what those who defend Islam will say when this crap starts to happen in Europe, and even America?

When will people understand this war is about more than al-qaeda and the Taliban, but instead is about Islam and its peculiar way of life.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at July 18, 2008 7:38 PM

Moments ago I saw on the news that the US government is planning to ease visa restrictions for Iranians coming to the USA. Their rationale is that once the Iranians visit the USA they'll put pressure on their Iranian government to "change".

Once again the US government demonstrates a total lack of common sense.

Posted by: The Cool Ghoul at July 18, 2008 7:41 PM

Obama said that the New Yorker magazine's cover was an insult to Muslims by suggesting that there's something wrong with being a Muslim.

This is the kind of stupidity that Americans appear to be prepared to turn over the white house to.

I don't know who's more immoral, Islamic rapists and murderers or the American electorate?

Muslims kill because their fictional God commands them to kill. American voters will elect anyone to office that makes them feel good, or can deliver a good speech.

Posted by: rational at July 18, 2008 8:01 PM

I wonder what those who defend Islam will say when this crap starts to happen in Europe, and even America? Posted by: greatcometof1577

Rape of Swedish girls by Muslims is one of the great crimes suppresed by the MSM in Sweden. Fjordman has written about this at length.

In the UK, Gandalf keeps an eye on the situation.

THE MUSLIM RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE OF BRITISH GIRLS

http://uppompeii1.uppompeii.com/2008/07/18/the-muslim-rape-rape-rape-rape-of-british-girls.aspx#AddComment

Channel 4 had a programme on Muslim men in the UK, grooming underage white girls for sex. The programme was postponed in the aftermath of 7/7.

Posted by: DP111 at July 18, 2008 8:56 PM

http://sabrang.com/cc/archive/2008/june08/pakistan.html

It is a crime for Hindus to have land and beautiful daughters. Kidnapping, rape and forcible marriage of Hindu girls is common practice in Pakistan. In case of arrest, the accused produce a certificate issued by any Muslim seminary stating that the kidnapped girls have voluntarily adopted Islam and the accused have married the girls. The courts generally do not consider the fact that most of the girls are minors and simply accept the certificate of conversion without any investigation. On December 31, 2006 a Hindu girl named Deepa (17) was abducted by her tuition teacher, Ashraf Khaskheli, a Muslim, in Madhwani Mohala in Tharparkar district, who forcibly married her and converted her to Islam. A certificate of marriage and conversion to Islam was reportedly issued by Ayube Jan Sarhandi, the head of a seminary, and the police allegedly refused to register the complaint filed by the girl’s parents.

Posted by: Shyamsunder at July 18, 2008 9:02 PM

rational: Your importunate ire is understandable, but may I respectfully put forward the contention that Islamic rapists and murderers are infinitely more immoral than the American electorate and here's why: the former are bad to the bone, I mean evil, while the latter are "merely" ignorant. Even a large percentage of Muslims don't really know what their religion maintains, so it is even more excusable that Americans, a wonderfully tolerant lot overall, would accord to any major religion a respect that is not warranted where Islam is concerned.

But give the average American time-----and he or she will need such time because revolutionary ideas, like a major creed being rotten throughout, will take a while to settle into the collective consciousness. Eventually, though, all the horrors (yes, I think "horrors" is an accurate term) which Islam intends for America and the world will become plainly evident to a large majority of us infidels. Then Islam and its deluded believers will be on the defensive in a struggle mankind has never seen before, because no major faith will have been exposed as fundamentally flawed to the core as Islam surely will be before long.

Be patient. The good guys are going to win. Put another way, I will make a prediciton and it is this: a century from now Islam will be on the trash heap of history along with Nazism and Marxism. If I'm wrong here (and I am confident that I am not), then a hundred years from now mankind will be living in a dark age like no other from Neanderthal Man onwards.

Posted by: Wellington at July 18, 2008 9:15 PM

No more US aid to Pakistan until these poor child sex slaves are freed and the Pakistani judiciary reverses the legal precedent for the allowing of child kidnapping, sexual slavement and forced conversion to Islam. You agree President Bush and Ms Rice? Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, yes or no?

Posted by: ausinfidel at July 18, 2008 9:35 PM

Wake up!

Islam is danger!

Should be banned, all mosques to be torned down, and all the books burned.

Posted by: hemoglobin at July 18, 2008 9:42 PM

"I wonder what those who defend Islam will say when this crap starts to happen in Europe, and even America?"

greatcometof1577: Not a word, unless they have a personal experience with it and have lost someone as a result. A Muslim will say the people who did this don't understand Islam. A non-Muslim will point to the Muslim and nod. (what he said)

What's the joke? A conservative is a liberal who's been mugged?

Until a lot of people in Europe and America have been "mugged", it won't get through all the PC.

Wellington: a hundred years is a long time to wait. A lot of lives will be lost and history destroyed or rewritten in the meantime. Many people will know nothing but Islamic terror their whole lives. Remember when the Taliban blew up the Buddha statues? Europe could face similar devastation. The works of Michaelangelo might end up in that dust bin before Islam.
Ninety-nine percent of those alive today will not live to see your prediction come true. We'll just have to hope.

Posted by: PMK at July 18, 2008 9:43 PM

Dumbles... wow.

I think your instinct is good, to hold on and scream as loud and long as you can. People will more likely respond quickly to someone who is loudly screaming "FIRE" than "HELP because "HELP" is an open-ended, unknown proposition and they might not want to get involved in whatever problem they're being beckoned to. But everyone wants to be a fire hero. When people show up, if they do, let them know what's going in simple terms, "These guys are trying to kidnap this girl. Call the cops." Etc.

About Hugh's kin, I guess first I feel sorry for him and hope he can find a way to forgive himself, and I mean that sincerely.

People stand and watch stuff like that happen all the time, all over the world. Some because they're scared beforehand, so they make no plan. That would be a waste of time since their fear has already won. Some because the reality of the threat is overwhelming and fear grips them for a moment, and any plan they may have had is lost.

I've been meaning to write along these lines at my blog but have put it off lately in favor of commenting on some recent events. There are already some posts there that might address your concerns but I'll write in depth there over the next few days to try to tie it all together a bit better.

And, I'm humbled and honored that you would even ask such a thing.

MP: you might want to grab the horns on this one, too, buddy.

Posted by: undaunted at July 18, 2008 9:49 PM

dumbledoresarmy:

It is a tragedy what had happened 25 years ago to that lady in the English Bank. I have a friend who is a Sikh lady and she would tell me about how the Sikhs were ready to fight the Mohammedans. This is during the Mughal era of Indian History. The Sikhs were mostly in the Punjab area which is now divided and a large chunk went to Pakistan. However she would tell me the horror stories of how Hindu girls were kidnapped and one of the Sikh duties was to defend these women from the Mohammedans who routinely practiced this abduction of young girls into their harems and raped them. I think during the early history of the US at the time of Jefferson who sent the Marines and US Navy to fight the Mohammedans in the Mediterranean of the coast of Libya to protect US cargo and ships, these Mohammedans routinely raided European towns along the coast and kidnapped Christian women and young boys and girls as slaves and booty, as well.

Looking back 25 years ago I think it was a different world. Most of the west were not really aware of the dangers of Islam like we are now here at least those who read JW/DW. In Britain you would see these Arabs and the women in Burqa come into expensive shops on Oxford St and Regents St shopping and leave as quickly as they arrived. It was a you might say a kind of unique or exotic site. I think people now understand the cruelty and barbaric nature of Sharia and the appalling conditions of women in Islam and treatment of non Muslims is a crime against humanity. There is only one thing that Islam has done very effectively and successfully throughout the 1400 years of its existence and continues now, is that it is guilty of HIGH CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. There is nothing that can even compare. I mean even if you took all the tyrants and dictators and maniacs all those crimes throughout history against humanity Islam still tops the list.

Posted by: savsiv at July 18, 2008 10:17 PM

PMK: A hundred years is indeed a long time to wait, but my primary concern in my missive to "rational" was to be accurate----and certainly not unduly optimistic. If I'm correct in assuming that Islam is the single most menacing totalitarian ideology ever to appear in man's long story (anyone care to disagree here?), then a hundred years or so before Islam is functionally dead is not, I would argue, off the mark, though still a tragic reality.

Let's see. It took a couple of decades (and a most violent six years) to put Nazism on the trash heap of history. It took the better part of a century to bury Marxism as the malicious nonsense that it is (though many Western academics in nations where it was never instituted foolishly think it still has merit). And then there is Islam. Hiding behind its religious front, posing as enlightened to multitudes, having lasted a millennium and a half (in large part precisely because it was a religion but also because it is magnificently parasitical), it is the greatest scourge in the intellectual history of man. So, a century to be rid of it seems approximately accurate to me.

And you're correct in maintaining that many folks in the immediate generations to unfold will know little but the terror and crushing burden which Islam dispenses in inhuman amounts, whether from inside this evil system of thought or on the outside opposing it. Such is the way of the world. As an example, look at all the millions in China, Poland, Russia, eastern Germany, etc. who lived all, or almost all, their life on earth under the onus of a malevolent idea-----Marxism. Multiply this tragedy by a factor of twenty or so to see what a prison Islam has imposed on all the world. Hey, who said life was easy?

Posted by: Wellington at July 18, 2008 10:47 PM

I have emailed all the links to do with this story - both the links to the jihadwatch coverage, and the original newslinks - to my parish priest, this morning.

He mailed back at once, expressing due horror, and our church will be praying most fervently.

savsiv - perhaps you should put 'undaunted' into contact with Sikh and Rajput organisations, both within India and in the West.

It may be time for Sikhs - and for westerners who have fighting or police skills, like 'undaunted' - to start actively sharing knowledge with one another.

Imagine, for example, Sikhs in Scotland sitting down with a bunch of Highland clansmen and telling them the stories of how the Sikhs went out to rescue girls who'd been kidnapped by Muslims; and teaching them how they did it.

Imagine, for example, every little Jewish boy in the West, learning fighting skills from his friendly neighbourhood Sikh swordsman or his own krav maga instructor- and learning how to keep a deadly cool head while fighting, no hysterical suicidal rage for us kafir! - during the same period that he is also going to his rabbi to study Torah before his Bar Mitzvah. I think we're coming to that.

We need some Orde Wingates (look him up).

If we all of us - even the old folks and the women and girls - can really get our heads around this thing, plan for the worst while hoping for the best, I think we can beat it.

Because the kafir civilisations are, in the end, far more creative and courageous than the Ummah (which is merely a Mob, a mob of mobs, a sort of gestalt animated by the soul of a psychopath, a liar, a bandit, con-man and murderer, ha-Meshugga); not to mention, of a boaster and a coward. (To know what they are, look at what they say about *us*).

Their primary weapon is deceit, a fog, a labyrinth of illusion and confusion. Once we see through that, once we simply refuse to enter the game of lies, they lose the capacity to surprise us.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at July 18, 2008 10:47 PM

Robert, Marisol, Raymond, other JW associates:

Out of the Mouths of Bombers

Note the first comment. I especially agree with this quote:

Indeed. And I always find that terrorists are very proud of their goals and ideology, unlike the media that report on them. Talk to any terrorist and he'll be very open about his aim to destroy Israel as a stepping stone to achieving his ultimate goal of spreading Islam across the world. I actually enjoy talking to terrorists more than politicians, because when I ask terrorists why they're blowing themselves up, they give me an honest answer.

As you say, read the whole thing.

Posted by: Beagle at July 18, 2008 10:54 PM

DP111

I read about the Muslim rape stories in Sweden, Australia, etc...

I mean what is going to happen when Islamic groups start to kidnap girls in western countries and forcefully convert them Islam, or ship them overseas etc. I see it as only a matter of time. People need to understand that these folks think they are doing the will Allah and Mo!

I think this could be a real danger, in the near future, for the typical non-muslim family living in the west. Talk about striking terror into their hearts..etc. Would you want someone living next to you whose religious teachings say it is a-ok for them to snatch up your daughter, sister, girlfriend, wife, etc, off the street and "convert her"?

...it is something to think about.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at July 19, 2008 12:42 AM

Dumbles;

It can't do anything but good to have people trained to handle worst case scenarios. If someone contacts me, I'll be happy to do what I can.

I think, at least I hope, there are many who would like to use their training and expertise to help fight the various battles that come our way in this war.

If we can join forces, that would be grand.

But to protect this site and it's fine authors and those at DW from any potential litigation issues, I'll confine any specific tactital suggestions to my blog ~ with frequent reminders to all that we must return daily here to the mothership.

The fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much. True. But sometimes we need to mount up and with moral courage do all we can not just to influence an outcome or to win a war but to defeat a thoroughly wicked culture.

You're a warrior, Dumbles.

Posted by: undaunted at July 19, 2008 12:44 AM

greatcomet

I wonder whether the police and Red Cross and Missing Persons organisations in Western countries shouldn't already be getting a 'heads up' about this possibility? If anyone of us has police persons in our immediate circle, I think we should raise it with them.

Stealth kidnappings may be happening already, for all we know. It would be interesting to check the pattern of unsolved disappearances over the past forty years, say - looking at proportion of girls or boys, aged 9-17, out of total vanishments - and whether it's increased.

Beagle -

Thanks for pointing us to that JPost interview with Aaron Klein. I went on over and it was very interesting. I saved the link and copied and saved the article for future ease of reference.

The talk-back comments were instructive. A few people who knew exactly what Klein was on about - and someone else, a Muslim taqiyya artist I'm sure, oh-so-predictably trying to play the 'hate speech' and 'taken out of context' and 'cherry-picking' card against Klein.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at July 19, 2008 2:35 AM

This is more than just a 'minority' of extremists hi-jacking a religion, this act of kidnapping and converting the victims to islam has now been sanctioned by a court of law. If the children are ever returned to their Christian family and continue with their Christian faith they will be subjected to the laws of apostasy. This case cannot not be allowed to go unnoticed like thousands of other examples these despots provide us. It's another opportunity to jolt the masses out of their stupor...

Posted by: eloivsdiablo at July 19, 2008 5:59 AM

hemoglobinWake:
"Islam is danger!
Should be banned, all mosques to be torned down, and all the books burned."

I agree with all you say except about the books burned. The koran must be translated into every language & dialect. People must be able and allowed to read it to learn the truth about why its practice should be criminal. It is taught now to 1 billion zombies who recite it in a foreign language as a rant obviously not meant to be read or understood. Most zombies have no idea the evil they are articulating.

Also, we should rename our war of terror as a war against zombies. It may be referred to as or our war against the living dead. Pehaps renamed as the war against zombies or the war against the living dead, then our politically correct media may not be so quick to censure us. We are at war with the living dead. We are at war with the zombies.

Posted by: David England at July 19, 2008 6:21 AM

sIR,
you are highlighting this incident because they are christian girls.This has been going on for centuries in which Hindu girls are taken as sex slaves by Saudi bedoiun. Even today VD/AIDS afflicted Saudies come to Hyderabad(India)as tourists and marry local girls for a pittance spend a month and give 'talaq " three times and go away because they think having sex with virgins will cure them of AIDS.
wESTERN MEDIA donot report this as girls parents have taken money but the girls are aged only 10 or 12.

Posted by: captain at July 19, 2008 10:20 AM

Then, captain, you need to focus your righteous anger into moral courage and do something about it. If it includes giving your life for these girls, well then that's the price it takes.

Nobody here is highlighting anything just because of the religion of the victims. The outrage is because they are innocents.

Posted by: undaunted at July 19, 2008 10:45 AM

Regarding the situation in an English bank quoted by dumbledoresamy, I have little doubt that if the man in that situation chose to take hold of that woman and try to help her by escaping or by fending off the Arabs, the authorities would put him in jail and restore the woman to the Arabs. 25 years ago even, this would probably have been the likely outcome, and today, even more so. This makes the dilemma even worse, and could be a predictor for whose side for example the US National Guard would take if any American citizens under extraordinary circumstances chose to defend themselves aggressively in a devolving situation of localized attacks by Muslims--i.e. the National Guard would protect the Muslims of course.

Posted by: DenverRodeo at July 19, 2008 1:29 PM

Or not.

Posted by: undaunted at July 19, 2008 1:32 PM

Sure, anything's possible. Muslims could all give up Islam in the next few years and take up needlepoint instead.

Posted by: DenverRodeo at July 19, 2008 4:28 PM

And the UN Human Rights Council has condemned . . . Israel, of course, as the one country in the ME that violates human rights.

Only minds corrupted by ignorance and a twisted view of the world could countenance or keep silent in the face of child rape and kidnapping which this clearly is a particularly savage case of.

Posted by: lo3 at July 19, 2008 6:18 PM

North Korea likes this kind of stuff too.

Posted by: joeblough at July 19, 2008 6:48 PM

District judge Mian Muhammad Naeem, of the section of Muzaffargarh, has ruled that the two Christian sisters "have converted in a legitimate manner to Islam", and for this reason they cannot be "restored to their family of origin". Setting aside the request from their father to regain custody of his daughters, the judge also admitted the "validity" of the marriage of the girls to two Muslims.

As a Christian, I am supposed to love everyone, even my enemies. But, I'll be honest with you, it would be very hard to love people like "judge" Mian Muhammad Naeem, or any of the people involved in the kidnapping, if it were my daughters who were kidnapped.

CAIR, where are you? Why aren't you condemning this?

Posted by: PersonOfTheBook at July 19, 2008 9:28 PM

This is how Islam grows and dominates by kidnapping, raping children, killing opposition and murdering every one else. There is nothing new here. Millions of non Muslim have suffered these atrocities and at time in masses. So, only two more children - they are two drop in a see of atrocities.

They have no real judges in Islamic countries; instead, they intolerance scholars promoted to be judges who promote more intolerance.

Posted by: American at July 21, 2008 11:13 AM