I see that LGF hasn't changed any

Posted by: Elric66 at August 7, 2008 6:06 AM

"We are Americans, but not really"--average Muslim with American citizenship.

Posted by: Max Publius at August 7, 2008 6:17 AM

Funny....All this time has passed since 9-11...and some people don't understand...Islam is the words and deeds of Mohammad....they do and act like the man who gave them Islam.

Posted by: storagemanager at August 7, 2008 6:31 AM

Robert..thank you for this blog..because of it and your books...I learned and was able to teach family and friends of the danger we face today...again thank you.

Posted by: storagemanager at August 7, 2008 7:12 AM

THere is only one way for a moderate muslim be a real muslim, and itis jihad terrorism. We have seen some reverts become more militant to prove to their arab muslim masters what good pious muslims they have become.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at August 7, 2008 7:14 AM

"Islam is the words and deeds of Mohammad....they do and act like the man who gave them Islam."

Funny that people will vilify you for suggesting that it should be banned even when they agree with that.

Posted by: Elric66 at August 7, 2008 7:16 AM

I think Robert is handling the situation really well considering how difficult it is to be intellectually honest and at the same time toe to LGF's party line.

Posted by: Saatanan Islam at August 7, 2008 7:23 AM

I agree completely Saatanan Islam. I just hope we arent seeing a GOV attack redux.

Posted by: Elric66 at August 7, 2008 7:28 AM

Is this not exactly the same circumstances we see everywhere? In the UK, we have many 'nominal' muslims who visit the mosque, but for the rest of their lives exist tolerantly with non-muslims, with little sign of difficulty.

Then one of the 'serious' muslims walks into the room, and they snap to attention. They behave guiltily in the company of kuffars. They start observing the letter of the Qu'ran, whereas previously none of this appeared to matter.

And that's the frightening thing about Islam. Non-muslims might think that everything is working fine, that relationships are strong and positive, but then at the press of a button it can all change.

Posted by: Kev at August 7, 2008 8:29 AM

Robert is correct about the possibilities of the Kosovo Albanians drifting from 'not-really' Islam to the real thing, but that aside, why is it that the complaints by the Serbs about Balkan Mohammedans are automatically discounted (note: I'm not suggesting that Robert himself is guilty of this, but just that whenever someone, such as popcontest, made the allegation about the American Council for Kosovo being a front for the Serbian National Council or some such entity, there was no comeback from anybody that amounted to 'What's wrong with that?') On this site, there have on several occasions been several Serb posters who've pointed out the intolerance of Balkan Mohammedans (Albanian, 'Kosovar' and Bosnian/Hercegovinan) not only vis a vis the Serbs themselves (as though that would be okay), but also the local Jews and other infidel communities. Also, as has been noticed, the Albanians have been at loggerheads not only with the Serbs in Kosovo, but also with the Macedonians, who last I checked, are not Serbs. Why not at least consider the possibility that they are right, instead of simply dismissing them as propagandists just because they are Serb?

Popcontest linked to a website called 'Liberal Family' whose name alone suggests her political leanings. It's noteworthy that in her book, Serbian nationalism is bad (as is presumably American and any other 'nativist' nationalism), but even with that Leftist definition, I fail to see how Albanian/'Kosovar' nationalism qualifies as good.

Also, the possibility that the Kosovo spokespeople in question were practicing taquiyya has been almost completely overlooked.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at August 7, 2008 8:37 AM

Re. "Popcontest" and "Liberal Family":

I don't know who "Popcontest" is but that blog is run by "medaura18586" (Kejda) and her fiance or husband "MPH" (Michael).

"Medaura" is the one who was railing against "crusaders" and "jewhadists".

Posted by: Josephine at August 7, 2008 9:17 AM

Re. "Popcontest" and "Liberal Family":

I don't know who "Popcontest" is but that blog is run by "medaura18586" (Kejda) and her fiance or husband "MPH" (Michael).

"Medaura" is the one who was railing against "crusaders" and "jewhadists".

Doesn't think much of Zionest either by the look of it?.

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3137/zionistlgfwtfem4.jpg

Looks like Charles can't see the wood for the trees?

Posted by: kasper1062 at August 7, 2008 9:26 AM

I find it bizarre that Michael Totten didn't follow up on the "We are Muslims, but not really" statement,very strange indeed.

Perhaps he didn't like to ask,or perhaps he did and thought maybe others wouldn't like the answer.

Posted by: kasper1062 at August 7, 2008 9:35 AM

Liberal Protestantism, Post-Vatican II ROman Catholicism, and Reform Judaism are nothing but halfway houses to Marxism, New Ageism, Hedonism, and all the other idolatries of a supposed "enlightened" era. The typical liberal religious denomination in the West is losing membership at about 4-8% per annum and has an average age of 50+. Now, perhaps the average Muslim observer is too obtuse or insensitive to pay much attention to the internal follies of the Ahl-al-Kitab, but, if they do notice such things, can Muslims who value their faith be blamed for deciding that they want no part of "enlightened religion"?

My guess is that if there are Albanian Muslims who have nothing against either Israelis, Americans, or their Christian countrymen, and for whom such good relations are important, they'll probably find some way to hold jihad in abeyance.

Posted by: Kepha at August 7, 2008 9:43 AM

"Looks like Charles can't see the wood for the trees?" Posted by: kasper1062

Charles Johnson did not write that comment.

I will not participate in any criticism of him or the way he runs his website.

Posted by: Josephine at August 7, 2008 9:48 AM

You imply that Kosovo deserves a chance -- yet you work with an organization (American Council for Kosovo) that does not want to give them that chance.

Absolutely the door is open for a radicalization of much of the populace there. But the door is also even wider open for a generally secular society to create a new open government that recognizes individual rights, independent of religion (sound familiar?).

The stuff on the American Council for Kosovo's website is insane and contradicts what you are telling your readers today:
http://www.savekosovo.org/

From the name of the organization through to the content, this is classic propaganda 101.

Following the lead of the American Council for Kosovo is the most sure fire way to ensure such a radicalization that you warn about. Turning your backs of these generally good people is not the answer.

Posted by: popcontest at August 7, 2008 10:01 AM

Michael Totten's views toward islam & muslims are based largely on his travel impressions. Just like Michael Yon's. Remember this dusy of a story about the outbreak of brotherly harmony between iraq's muslims & their dwindling Christian population? We all know how long that lasted.

I perfer to listen to the opinions of those who base their judgments & views on the texts, tenets & 1400 year history of islam and muslims.

Posted by: sheik yer booty at August 7, 2008 10:50 AM

Sheik yer booty,

Lets be clear about what you are saying -- you say, Michael Totten (and I guess Michael Yon, as well) is incapable of reading for himself and integrating documented history into his travel experiences. To you, he is just an impressionable pawn without a thought of his own.

MPH

Posted by: popcontest at August 7, 2008 10:59 AM

Mike

See, here is a problem:

Lets be clear about what you are saying -- you say, Michael Totten (and I guess Michael Yon, as well) is incapable of reading for himself and integrating documented history into his travel experiences. To you, he is just an impressionable pawn without a thought of his own.

Why is it that either Totten is absolutely correct in all things or is an impressionable pawn?

Your rhetoric is so Manichaean and your choices so stark, it is hard for people to take you seriously as an interlocutor. Perhaps if you granted the possibility that people of good will might disagree with you in good faith, rather than assuming (as do Leftists and jihadists) that everyone who sees things differently from how you see them is malevolent, paid off, stupid, or some combination of the three, you might make more headway.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at August 7, 2008 11:03 AM

Why be "We are Muslims, but not really"?
Better to be nothing at all.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at August 7, 2008 11:27 AM

"We are Muslims, but not really"
Something like having an ancient but viable dragon's egg in the middle of town. When will it hatch?

Posted by: interestinconundrum at August 7, 2008 11:32 AM

popcontest:

Are you saying that unless you go there you are ignorant of everything?
One does not need to be hit in the head with a 2x4 to know it hurts. There have been many comments here expressing the hope that democracy takes hold in Iraq. However history has shown that islam and democracy don't mesh. They are two diametrically opposed political ideologies. Turkey has been sliding more and more towards sharia, why? Starting with Ataturk, the leaders understood the danger of islam and strongly suppressed it. With the gradual relaxation over the last several decades of this suppression, has come an increase in violence. Once "secular" muslims are rediscovering their "faith." A born-again muslim?lol The muslim Albanians may be secular now, but as long as they continue to identify with islam they run the risk of future generations reverting back and destroying all sense of secularism. Will this happen, who knows. The possibility is there though. All the evidence is there for one to see.

Posted by: Kevin at August 7, 2008 11:35 AM

Josephine,

popcontest = MPH see above and tail end of the hijacked Glenn Reynolds thread. You might want to take a look at the down-dings on the lgf thread on the Totten column to see what mph thinks of you, as well of course what medaura wrote directly to you.

When reading anything by Medaura of MPH/popcontest, it is important to realize that they do not behave in-good-faith.

They are clearly be looking to generate antagonism between various bloggers and among and between the readers and commenters at these various blogs.

They are propagandists.

Posted by: del at August 7, 2008 12:29 PM

"We are Americans, but not really"--average Muslim with American citizenship.

Posted by: Max Publius

Those words resonate with a lot of people, not just Muslims.

The USA is now an address - to many people. Some are citizens of the world. They're part of a global community, even if they DO carry an American passport. Some of them are in our government.
Others don't give up the old world loyalties. They don't give up their past life. They don't become Americans. The hyphenated American is everywhere.

Posted by: PMK at August 7, 2008 12:34 PM

MPH wrote:

"Lets be clear about what you are saying -- you say, Michael Totten (and I guess Michael Yon, as well) is incapable of reading for himself and integrating documented history into his travel experiences. To you, he is just an impressionable pawn without a thought of his own."

I'm absolutely not saying that they're incapable of that. Only that they're not doing it. For if they did read and pay close attention to that documented history, they would soon realize that so much about islam & muslims is not at all what it might at first appear, especially to Americans who, before the events of the past decade or two, last had close encounters w/ muslims back in the days of the Barbary pirates.

To clarify my position further, I don't object to Michael Yon covering the joint Christian-muslim cross-raising ceremony at the iraqi church. What I object to is not putting the event in the proper historical context of centuries-long, ideology-driven oppression & persecution of Christians throughout the muslim world. What I object to is inflating the significance of this single presumably genuine gesture of goodwill of some muslims toward Christians into something signifying a new chapter in muslim-Christian relations in the "new and improved" iraq.

Posted by: sheik yer booty at August 7, 2008 12:42 PM

del - Thank you.

; )

Posted by: Josephine at August 7, 2008 2:26 PM

No one wants to believe that a religion is bad. Not Michael or Sean or Christine or millions of others. However a totalitarian theocracy that is anti-Jewish they might believe, is worth watching out for in a political ideology. And that is what Islam is, no if, ands or buts or fanciful delusions of kumbaya. The domination of the kafir, the non-believer, by Islam and the imposition of sharia laws is in the dna of the doctrine. Unfortunately, they will not study the doctrine but rely on "muslimology' or information from muslims for their reports.

The less the muslim adheres to the islamic belief system and is more like a kafir, the more 'moderate' he is. However, Medina trumps Mecca, and over time with the aid of Saudi money, the kafir qualities are cast aside and supplanted by the doctrinal islam and the mohammedan.

The mistake Michael makes is accepting that the ideology springs from the muslims, that they have a control over the doctrine and not the other way around. The mohammedan is formed by the ideology whose foundation is the koran, the sira (the bio of mohammed, and the hadith (words and deed of mohammed) and since this doctrine is perfect, inviolate and eternal, no well meaning kafirized muslim can change it.

If history is any guide and the Saudi and muslim brotherhood influence continue, if Michael should go back in twenty years, he would find a mohammedan dna resurgence and the kafirized muslims leaving for the West.

Posted by: the poetess at August 7, 2008 3:04 PM

popcontest

Many others have pointed out the flaw in your argument, but I will add my two-cents…

You over state the importance of people like Michael Totten and Michael Yon. Just because you visit a place, go on patrol with some troops, etc, does not mean you understand what is really going on in the countryside. Let me give you two examples that should cause less controversy.

(1) If a traveler from another country goes to San Francesco, and walks around the streets, talks to the people living there, and takes in the cultural life there, should he thus make assumption that the rest of the United States is like San Francesco?

(2) During the 1936 Olympics in Nazi Germany, African-American athletes said they were treated well. They were allowed ride on the front of the bus, eat at café counters, and people in general were very nice to them. Are we thus to assume that Nazi Germany was enlightened on race?

You have to take everything into account, and you (Totten and Yon for that matter) have clearly not. History tells us that nations with Muslim majorities don’t stay secular for long, UNLESS there is some force to keep Islam in check. In Turkey it was Kemalism, in Albania it was Communism, in Indonesia it was colonial European rule, and for most of the Islamic world European colonialism was that force. Today those forces have been removed, or water-downed, thus the force of Islam, which is not just a religion, but political system, and government, is reasserting itself into those vacuums. Why should Albania and Kosovo be any different? They have a large population of those who identify themselves as Muslims, yes maybe not very observant Muslims, but they still call themselves that. Will those secular “Muslims” fight to defend their secular way of life against those pious Muslims, who eat and sleep Islam each day of their lives? History tells us they will not, or they will lose. The only times, in history, when people have defeated Islamic aggression is when those people held nothing back, and just went after Islam without rest, or reservations. Most people, who continue to identify themselves as Muslims, will not, and can not go after Islam like that. The mere fact they still call themselves Muslims, mean that they still have some affinity to Islam. It does not mean they are dangerous, it only means they cannot offer an effective resistance to those Muslims who take Islam very seriously.

Also Totten keeps referring to this as “liberal” or “moderate” Islam, but there is only one Islam. It is a sign, to me at least, that he does not understand Islam all that well. If you don’t understand Islam that well, it probably also means he is not strong on Islamic history either. Totten, and Yon are also the ones who keep defending this economic debacle in Iraq. They break out a bunch graphs (McNamara like) showing violence has declined, and thus we have won the war. Winning wars, and levels of violence are independent of each other. If we decided tomorrow to go after Sadr, and kill him, the levels of violence would increase, but does that mean we are now losing the war? Of course not. The real reason violence levels have gone down is we stopped trying to win the war over a year ago. We let Sadr go free, we let many Islamist (except for a select few) off the hook, we stopped trying to make them live like civilized human beings, and have essentially hunkered down, and are preparing the get out. Islam is still in charge, so what was gained, except finding new ways to waste money, by this exercise? All the pretty pictures, and travelogues won’t change the nature of Islam in Iraq, or anywhere else for that matter.

As has been posted many times before around the internet…

Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam return and with it the menace of an armed Mohammedan world, which will shake off the domination of Europeans -- still nominally Christian -- and reappear as the prime enemy of our civilization? The future always comes as a surprise, but political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial judgment of what that surprise may be. And for my part I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam". Hilaire Belloc, 1938

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at August 7, 2008 3:33 PM

Looks like LGF is still engages in some rather repulsive holocaust denial and historical revisionism when it comes to Balkan issues.

He kicks off everyone that tells the truth, while 'medaura' and 'a van hilton' whitewash all things nazi in that region.

Incidentally, all should read Christopher Simpson's 'Blowback'. Clinton did not 'accidentally' choose the wrong side. He was on the side that the State Department has been on ever since WWII.

Posted by: jimbob22 at August 7, 2008 4:20 PM

For many in the US the Balkans are not included in the war against terror or jihad,or whatever they call it.
The reason for this is not that the Balkan Muslims are "moderate" but because the Muslims' opponents in the Balkans are Orthodox Christians,which is the religion of Russia.
Of course the Russians understand this and they will respond accordingly in other issues.

Posted by: athenian at August 7, 2008 4:56 PM

re: greatcometof1577

I agree with your sentiment "History tells us that nations with Muslim majorities don’t stay secular for long, UNLESS there is some force to keep Islam in check."

That force is freedom -- reason -- democratic republican institutions (which is what kept America from the religious and ethnic wars of Europe's recent past), and especially goodwill and free trade with America.

What Spencer's cronies at the American Council for Kosovo wish to do is revoke that force (the US) -- which will create a vacuum, basically forcing the good people of Kosovo to succumb to the Saudi-funded Wahhabis. This contradiction in words and associations dumbfounds me.

The way to win this fight this is clear -- we must seek ways to continue to subvert wahabbi influence, all the while encourage the growth of a secular democratic state (chiefly by free trade and diplomatic support). Trust no one (there is no way to fully trust someone like Sali Berisha, Prime Minister of Albania), but offer conditional support that is contingent on free market and institutional reform (with secular values respected). For example, if there was an islamist uprising in Detroit, we have the institutions here to stop it. Kosovo needs to develop the same ability and institutions.

Anyway, this is essentially our current policy with respect to Kosovo now. Pull that support, and Jatras gets his prophecy fulfilled.

I've been all around Albania -- these people are hardly muslims (in fact, if American Christian groups want to proselytize there, I'm sure they'll find welcome ears if they tell them where they are from -- there is no way they'll be met with force) -- and most importantly they are willing to fight the "Binladensa", especially if we support that effort.

Iraq is an important battleground in the middle east fight against terror, which we can not afford to lose. The same can be said to Albania/Kosovo in Europe. If the American Council for Kosovo (and Serbia, and Russia) get their way, we are all but guaranteed to lose these people. I can not stress strongly enough.

Whatever you think of how we should approach Kosovo -- do not think for a minute that the American Council for Kosovo is open-minded about the situation. The only thing they care for is to revoke Kosovo's independence and subject its people back under Serbian rule. Read their website savekosovo.org -- they couldn't be any more clear about their aims.

Finally, I wish Spencer would come out and make his positions clear, since he doesn't seem to appreciate someone assuming he agrees with his colleagues' statements (even if he publishes their words on this website, re: Julia Gorin & Jatras). He can not continue to pretend to have an open-mind on Kosovo's independence, yet support the bulkhead lobbying effort working against it. It truly is a bright white contradiction.

Posted by: popcontest at August 7, 2008 5:19 PM

Spencer has made his position thoroughly clear. You just don't like it, and you're trying to muddy the issue by hinting that Julia Gorin and Jatras have somehow put him up to this.

As for "medaura", I re-read her quote from LGF, and she doesn't mention that she's quoting Babbazee. Sounds to me like that, and "Crusader" insults, came right out of her own little head---and she means them---as did the "douchebag" insult, at the beginning. (Notice that "she" attacks the previous poster with an ad hominem, instead of responding to him reasonably and courteously.)

Since the beginning of her posting at LGF, "she's" been quite the little whiz-kid at stirring up fights, and flinging insults. I agree with Josephine. She's a propagandist, who deliberately posts the things she does to stir up trouble, and push "her" dubious causes.

Posted by: TalkinKamel at August 7, 2008 5:51 PM

Kepha,

I can't speak for Liberal Protestantism and Reformed Judaism, but your characterization and assessment of "Post-Vatican II Roman Catholicism" as being one of several "halfway houses to Marxism" misses the mark, and reflects an unfounded personal bias.

It is heterodox elements nominally within the fold of that Church, not its authoritative teaching or clerical hierarchy, that have Marxist leanings and secular humanistic, moral relativistic, exotic, deconstructionist orientations. The Catholic Church does still (if you concede that it ever did) truly profess Christ, Crucified and Risen, and salvation by faith through grace.

Posted by: John C at August 7, 2008 7:27 PM

popcontest

“That force is freedom -- reason -- democratic republican institutions (which is what kept America from the religious and ethnic wars of Europe's recent past), and especially goodwill and free trade with America.”

Clearly you have forgotten about American history. We had something called the American Civil War, in which we had to crush the south in order to eradicate slavery, and bring them back into the union. This is why I disagree with you: Islam and Democracy don’t mix, just like freedom and slavery does not mix. One has to defeat the other. There is no middle ground on this (In my opinion). Islam is a direct competitor to a democracy with a secular constitution. I don’t think you are (nor are many people at this time) willing to do what will need to be done to establish what you want in Kosovo, and Albania. I mean the total defeat of Islam as a political system, and perhaps even as a religion. To bring a democracy with a secular government in Iraq, will mean an even bigger blood bath.   I am not saying this to sound like some cruel monster, but I am just stating the facts. If YOU want a secular democracy in Kosovo, and Albania to endure for any period of time, they will have to give up Islam. Is anyone in power today, or are you even, willing to do what it will take to accomplish that objective? I really don’t think so…hell...I am not sure I am willing to do that.

“What Spencer's cronies at the American Council for Kosovo wish to do is revoke that force (the US) -- which will create a vacuum, basically forcing the good people of Kosovo to succumb to the Saudi-funded Wahhabis. This contradiction in words and associations dumbfounds me.”

The vacuum was created by people who supported Kosovo independence in the first place. In truth, I don’t know much about the objectives of the American Council of Kosovo, but I think what Mr. Spencer is saying is we have to live in the real world as it is. It will be preferable if the Serbs run Kosovo. There will mean no Arabian influence if that is case, because there will be no vacuum. As I said above, the west is not ready to fight Islam, so U.S. forces there, or not, will not do a dam thing to stop Saudi-funded Wahhabis. We can’t even stop Saudi-funded Wahhabis from invading the United States, what makes you think we can stop them in Kosovo?

What Robert Spencer has proposed is a realistic plan, based on the world we live in today. Your plan is fantasy based, because it can not be accomplished without some real bloodletting, and I doubt you, or most westerners are ready for that at this time. What Robert Spencer, Hugh Fitzgerald and other have purposed is to limit the expansion of Islam, try to weaken the house of Islam as much as possible, and stop helping the house of Islam, by buying their oil, or saving them from themselves. That should buy us some time, and at least stabilize the west from any further Islamic encroachments. If we can do that in my lifetime...I will be a very happy man.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at August 7, 2008 9:26 PM

Kosovars: The only Europeans who allowed themselves to be conquered by Muslims. Go figure. Aren't they gypsies or something?

Posted by: Bingo at August 8, 2008 4:54 AM

unlike some posters here (Hi Del, how did it feel looking like a fool on Totten's blog?) Robert actually make some great points. Pretty balanced for a Serb propagandist (Savekosovo.org .) Are Kosovars open to radicalization? Sure they are. In fact Saudis have been doing that for 8-9 years with disastrous results.

The idea is that those need to checked. If wahhabis are allowed to throw money and propagandise 24/7 many more from 100% Christians would join their sect, as many hispanics are joining in US. It's happening in England, and other EU countries as well. Ironically the worst areas in the Balkans are those not ruled by Albanian governments: in Bosnia, Sandjak (ruled by Serbs) and FYROM ruled by FYROM. To the dismay of many here, we can't kill all Muslims, so keep radicalism out is the best approach. If it wasn't for the US /EU PC nonsense, many of those Arabs would be out of Kosovo already.

Robert, I hope you are getting paid by James Jatras, the Serb propagandist, he is pocketing a cool 100,000 a month to make Albanians seem like the Taliban. Of course those who visit it there, rain on the parade, but is cashing the check.

>> Kosovars: The only Europeans who allowed themselves to be conquered by Muslims. Go figure. Aren't they gypsies or something?

Spoken like a true idiot, and I truly, truly mean it: While Serbs gave up in one battle where half with Lazar surrendered and the other half run away, Albanians did win some 13 battles against Turks and Serbs never really ruled Albania, they left it alone after rebellion after rebellion. Why do you think Albanian had no roads, no commerce at all after 500 years of Turkish occupation. While Serbs kept their 'faith' they fought with Turks against other Balkan countries, including sending 1500 knights to the siege of Constadinople, with their pals, the Turks. Here's a summary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwXsKaLIblQ Ask the Turks what they thought about Albanian fighters and how well they did there.

Oh, and Serbs even married their women with the Turks to buy more favors, their Church sucking up to the Turks wasn't good enough for the Serbs. Only Greeks gave more wives to the Turk officials than Serbs. Albanians, Muslim and Christian didn't pay taxes to no one and were armed to the teeth.

Here's a hint to you: Religion does not mean nationality for Albanians, and people converted so their chief could maintain the land and that so arms wouldn't be taken away. Plus, Albanians didn't; have a national church and the Catholic church was persona non-grata thanks to Turks and the Orthodox Church ("Better the yoke of the Sultan than the tiara of the Pope.") The Albanian hero is a Catholic, second is Mother Teresa, and the real law of the land for 500 years was the Code of Lek Dukagjini, written by a Catholic that mentions the Church virtually in every page.

Posted by: nameless-fool at August 8, 2008 10:32 AM

if anyone really wants to know about Albanians (and the role that religion plays) you may want to read Douglas Munir:

(quote)
"There’s an old saying that “the religion of Albanians is Albanianism”, and there’s a lot of truth to it. In round numbers, the Albanospere is about 70%-75% Muslim, maybe 15%-20% Catholic, and the rest Orthodox. In practice, “Muslim” to most Albanians means “descended from a Muslim family, observe some Muslim holidays, don’t eat pork”. Very few women wear a headscarf or veil.

There’s almost no friction between the religious groups. Intermarriage is common and nobody thinks much of it. When Benedict was elected Pope a few years back, church bells ran all over Tirana, to general approval. Every Christmas in Prishtina, the single Catholic church is filled to overflowing with Muslim Albanians who’ve come to share the holiday with friends.

I’ve had some trouble explaining this to Serbian and American Orthodox acquaintances. Religiously tolerant!?! Have you seen what they did to the monasteries in Kosovo? Do you have any idea how many Orthodox churches those animals have burned??

The answer, of course, is that the Albanians didn’t attack the Serbian Orthodox churches because they were Orthodox. They attacked them because they were Serbian. But if you’re an Orthodox person who’s seen film clips of Albanians smashing and burning churches, this distinction may be hard to grasp. (end)

http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/minorities-and-integration/some-thoughts-on-greater-albania-part-2/

If you are Serb or don't to admit that you've fooled by their propaganda, don't read it but he has the most accurate description of Albanian society I have seen online.

Posted by: nameless-fool at August 8, 2008 10:53 AM

Sorry for the mistaken, unintended inversion--make that out to read, ". . . saved by grace through faith."

Posted by: John C at August 8, 2008 11:24 AM

". . . Salvation by grace through faith."

Posted by: John C at August 8, 2008 11:30 AM

Nigeria was once a country where the muslims were moderate; they were 30% of the largely Christian population and the two communities lived in peace and harmony together. But things changed and by the time the muslims became 40% they had installed sharia law in the north of the country without consulting the Christian majority to the south. There has been trouble ever since as the muslims agitate to impose their way of life on the population. I personally know a few Christians who had to flee for their lives from this country as it became Islamized and radicalized.
I have a friend from Albania who has settled here in the UK and married a Christian. He is generally uninterested in religion. Indeed I would say he was wary of all religious practices. However, radicalizing influences have moved into Albania and though this country at the present time is still largely passive and unradicalized there is no garauntee that it will remain this way, just as there can be no garauntee for any Islamic country. And by moving in on Christian Kosova in large numbers, seizing land and control, treating the indigenous population as inferiors and then demanding independence they have behaved in exactly the way that their Islamic law demands.
Do you, popcontest, really believe that muslims have the right to take other people's countries in this way? You only have to look at Islamic activities across the world to realize that muslims are on the move doing just that. Well I don't and I think they need to be stopped.
P.S Imposed beliefs and reason are incompatible.

Posted by: Symphony Wales at August 8, 2008 11:39 AM

I am convinced that the two characters are Albanian agitators possibly working for their government with so much time on their hands yo spare.

Posted by: Mimi at August 8, 2008 11:41 AM

"For many in the US the Balkans are not included in the war against terror or jihad,or whatever they call it.
The reason for this is not that the Balkan Muslims are "moderate" but because the Muslims' opponents in the Balkans are Orthodox Christians,which is the religion of Russia."

This is a very astute observation, I think.

Posted by: Mimi at August 8, 2008 12:29 PM

And by moving in on Christian Kosova in large numbers, seizing land and control, treating the indigenous population as inferiors and then demanding independence they have behaved in exactly the way that their Islamic law demands.

Ummm...the only place Serbs are indigenous to is Russia (or Ukraine right now) Albanians were there for much much longer than Serbs. The fact that Serbs took over sword in hand for a while doesn't change that so try another argument. I posted a longer version on http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/an-israeli-in-k.php#comments
Bulgaria and Byzantines ruled 'Kosovo' from 7th century till the 1180 and then Ottoman Turks from 1400 or so till 1912. That "Kosovo was always Serbian" is another Serbian lie.

The reason for this is not that the Balkan Muslims are "moderate" but because the Muslims' opponents in the Balkans are Orthodox Christians,which is the religion of Russia."

or maybe because the Turkish version Islam is different and until the late 80's everyone was in a dictatorship so no Saudis got in? Sorry to ruin your dream orthodox boy. Ask your church why did they collaborate with the Sultan and why are they so rich (Thanks to the Turks!!)

Posted by: nameless-fool at August 8, 2008 2:32 PM

I refer back to common acronyms in Americal politics to dub them MINO, Muslim In Name Only.

As a point of detail are you adopting the majority Muslim attitude of dismissing the Ahmadiyyad as not really Muslims, did you miss them in your assessment, or do you see in their insistence on sharia law as ultimately being the law of the land as proof they're not really moderate? I must admit that after encountering some of them a few years ago I find them puzzling. I certainly find the doctrine they espoused as being fully as stifling to women as main stream Islam.

{^_^}

Posted by: jdow at August 8, 2008 2:45 PM

"To the dismay of many here, we can't kill all Muslims, so keep radicalism out is the best approach. "

What if "radicalism" is not only "out there" outside of these nice "moderate Muslims" but also is inside their religious culture and inside their minds, inside their psychological DNA, as a potential that can be activated by things like appeal to be "true Muslim" or labelling others as "enemies"? For that, it's not "how do we keep radicalism from coming in", but "how do we root it out from where it already lies in wait like a larva"--or at least "how do we prevent it from naturally coming out".

Anyway, I don't think we can, at least not enough to make a difference, so it's moot. The alternative isn't to "kill all Muslims", but as Curtis LeMay said, to "kill enough of them so they stop fighting."

Posted by: DenverRodeo at August 8, 2008 3:18 PM

DenverRodeo, indeed, killing all the Muslims will not be sufficient. You cannot find them all. And the virulent ideology continues to exist.
 
Just how does now commit ideo-cide, the death of an ideology? I've always favored good old fashioned ridicule, reasoned criticism, and "there is a better way, here it is, here is why." The latter should not necessarily be couched in religious terms.
 
Indeed, we must commit ideo-cide for "radical Islam." We must also recognize that Islam itself is radical in terms of what is needed to fit in with the world today. We may never wipe out Islam; but, we may be able to make it so "silly, primitive, and old fashioned" that it will be a curiosity similar to the Norse, Roman, and Greek Pantheons.
 
Islam cannot prevail. Even with Iranian and Pakistani nuclear weapons they cannot prevail. They can be turned into massive numbers of "crispy critters" in any response that may come for any of their nuclear attacks. In the end they will cease to exist in meaningful numbers of people with access to the modern world. The modern world will suffer. And it may be a long time before the modern world gets over its shame for the deeds that were required to preserve it.
 
It's much much better that other approaches be used to reduce Islam to a historical curiosity without massive numbers of deaths. I sincerely hope it is possible. Means of doing so much be explored and developed, mass numbers of means. I mentioned my ideas. I don't consider them to be the only ideas out there.
 
{^_^}

Posted by: jdow at August 8, 2008 3:50 PM

WOW! What a deluge of crap!
LGF did lead me here, but I stopped reading it long ago, precisely because of the crap that now has been transplanted here. :(

لن استسلم

ABS

Posted by: Drewbenstein at August 8, 2008 5:35 PM

nameless-fool

"To the dismay of many here, we can't kill all Muslims, so keep radicalism out is the best approach. If it wasn't for the US /EU PC nonsense, many of those Arabs would be out of Kosovo already."

Give me a break! No one wants to kill all Muslims. What most of us want is to prevent the spread of an ideology, religion, and political system called Islam, that is against our way of life in the west.

The problem is…

If people like you, popcontest, and the rest want a secular democracy in places like Albania, Kosovo and even in Iraq (I gather), than you will have to do something about Islam. Majority Muslim countries don’t stay secular for long, unless you impose draconian measures to limit Islam as a political organization, religion and even as a culture way of life.

According to the CIA World Fact book on Albania: “Muslim 70%, Albanian Orthodox 20%, Roman Catholic 10% note: percentages are estimates; there are no available current statistics on religious affiliation; all mosques and churches were closed in 1967 and religious observances prohibited; in November 1990, Albania began allowing private religious practice.”

These of course are estimates, but please note the draconian measure of closing down all religious places by the communist government at that time. That is why Albania appears somewhat secular on the surface, but it also clear that the majority of Albanians (Kosovo included) identify themselves as Muslims. Until they ditch that identity, they cannot be trusted as an ally.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at August 8, 2008 6:27 PM

Yes, I wonder what "medaura/popcontest" are up too, trying their best to transplant the same ol'/same ol' crap here?

Couldn't be the have an agenda, could it? Stir up fights between conservative blogs, so they all lose credibility?

Posted by: TalkinKamel at August 8, 2008 6:42 PM

LOL @ DenverRodeo:

"What if "radicalism" is not only "out there" outside of these nice "moderate Muslims" but also is inside their religious culture and inside their minds, inside their psychological DNA, as a potential that can be activated by things like appeal to be "true Muslim" or labelling others as "enemies"?"

I really had no idea that people could still talk like this without rebuke. This is 2008, not 1688.

This is one of your allies in the battle against islamic jihad? Man, we're screwed...

Posted by: popcontest at August 8, 2008 11:32 PM

Hello all.

I am the poster "violingirl" who posted on the LGF thread in question. I am glad to see that the majority of people commenting here recognise what rubbish was posted by certain commenters on that thread.

Posted by: Natalie at August 8, 2008 11:49 PM

Well, that's the funny thing about America, "popcontest". Here, we can speak our minds freely (at least for now)without rebuke. Oh yeah, people can disagree with us, but they have to do it reasonably, and they have to provide arguments---not just sputter, fling insults and try to bully opponents into silence.

(And quite riding the BNP stuff; that's old.)

Posted by: TalkinKamel at August 8, 2008 11:56 PM

Hiya, Natalie, "Violingirl!" Good comments over there. Yes, "Zionist", used as an insult. "Veeeeeerrrrry Innnnnnterestttttting!" as we used to say on "Laugh-in." (And, really, the kind of insult a jihadist/jihadist sympathizer would use.)

Posted by: TalkinKamel at August 9, 2008 12:10 AM

or maybe because the Turkish version Islam is different

If this is the reason the US supports Muslims in the Balkans then why the anxiety over Erdogan' s party?
They should not worry and leave this good version of Islam to flourish.
But it seems that even inside Turkey they are many who are afraid of their Islam.They just consider it good only when they want to impose it to the non-Muslims of the Balkans.
The same people in the US that preach the merits of the Turkish version of Islam when they have to justify the Balkan policy ring alarm bells about the danger of this good version of Islam becoming government in Turkey.

Posted by: athenian at August 9, 2008 2:42 AM

TalkinKamel said-
"Couldn't be they have an agenda, could it? Stir up fights between conservative blogs, so they all lose credibility?"

Oh they have an agenda alright. And the means they use to achieve that agenda is to attack the character of those they disagree with.

Thus destroying their credibility.

With all due respect to Totten and Yon, Mr. Spencer knows what he is talking about irt Islam.

Posted by: USS Ben at August 9, 2008 3:40 AM

TalkinKamel said-

"As for "medaura", I re-read her quote from LGF, and she doesn't mention that she's quoting Babbazee. Sounds to me like that, and "Crusader" insults, came right out of her own little head---and she means them---as did the "douchebag" insult, at the beginning. (Notice that "she" attacks the previous poster with an ad hominem, instead of responding to him reasonably and courteously.)"

Aye! Not worth debating people who can't maintain a civil manner of decency.
IOW's, why argue with fools?

Posted by: USS Ben at August 9, 2008 3:45 AM

Nameless Fool - I think you have lost sight of the wood for the trees. It really matters little whether or not the Muslims have taken or re-taken a piece of land. At some time in the past all the countries they now inhabit belonged to others, mainly Jews, Christians and Hindus and these lands were taken by the sword.

Right here in this small patch of London where I live Somalian Muslims have expressed amusement at the thought that we Brits would like to resist their advance and ultimate takeover, and the suggestion that we might fight and win had them positively rubbing their hands in glee at the challenge.

A couple of decades ago the Muslims here seemed to be moderate - there was hardly a headscarf to be seen. Now the area is bustling with hijabs and abayas. They stride along our roads with head held high and with utter confidence that they have the right to demand, and get, their own way. If at all thwarted they clamour with and air of injured persecution for what they want, and when they win, as they inevitably do due to the weakness of our leaders and the misconceptions of our liberals, we can sense the jubilation they feel mixed in with contempt for our spinelessness.

In countries across the world where Muslims are stretching their borders or moving towards a more fundamental form of Islam we see this same mix of righteous demanding, persecuted injury and jubilant victory. I think it is important that we see the wider picture, and until such time as Muslims renounce their belief that they can bring paradise to Earth by conquering the globe, and that they can please God by killing non-Muslims or subjecting them to a life of dhimmitude (not an easy thing for them as these are basic tenets of their faith) then we have to work against them and resist their every claim for new or even re-gained lands.

Posted by: Symphony Wales at August 9, 2008 4:00 AM

Nameless Fool - I think you have lost sight of the wood for the trees. It really matters little whether or not the Muslims have taken or re-taken a piece of land.

Muslims have not done taken or re-taken anything; Albanians have. Muslim, Catholic, Atheist or Orthodox they are all Albanians. They have been there as pagan, Christian, Muslim, Atheist and who knows what's next. No one gave you or anyone the right to say "Now, you lost your land because you changed religion." While people may self-segregate in villages, there is no "this is Muslim" or "Catholic" land rules. You buy the land, you live in it, same as anywhere. If you don't go to the Church or become a scientologist you still own your land.

Serbs would have lost theirs for collaborating with the Turks and for surrendering without a fight long time ago. Had Serbs not supported the Turks when it really mattered, in early 15-16th century, Turks would have been thrown out, but it's all done now.

If you think this is about religion, just ask Serbs why they started a war with Slovenia and Croatia too, since they were fighting 'Jihad.'

Posted by: nameless-fool at August 9, 2008 11:31 AM

TalkinKamel, thank you for your kind words. I'm glad you found medaura's use of the word Zionist as odd as I did.

Posted by: Natalie at August 9, 2008 1:54 PM

You're very welcome, Natalie.

(Yes, I certainly found her use of the word Zionist odd for one who claims to be a champion of freedom and reason.)

Posted by: TalkinKamel at August 9, 2008 2:17 PM

Nameles-fool,

Serbs didn't start wars against Slovenia and Croatia, inform your self better.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at August 9, 2008 6:17 PM

namelessfool

I have some questions for you, relating to your posting of 8 August at 10.53 am.

1. You wrote, in your idyllic portrait of interfaith relations in what the MSM might like to call 'moderate majority-Muslim Albania', the following.

"There’s almost no friction between the religious groups".

*Almost* none is NOT the same as *none*. So there *is* some friction, isn't there?

2. You wrote:" Intermarriage is common and nobody thinks much of it".

Yes...but what KIND of intermarriage? Muslim men marrying non-Muslim women is completely meaningless as a sign of integration and harmonious relations.

Intermarriage is only a sign of real tolerance if there are significant numbers of Albanian Muslim *girls* marrying Christian or secular men, WITHOUT the men having to convert to Islam.

Do you personally know of any such marriages - Muslim woman to non-Muslim (and *remaining* non-Muslim) man? Couples known to you? Can you give three examples, five, ten, twenty?

3. You wrote: "Every Christmas in Prishtina, the single Catholic church is filled to overflowing with Muslim Albanians who’ve come to share the holiday with friends."

Yes...but: how many Muslim-background Albanian Christians do you know, either personally or anecdotally? Are many Albanian Muslims converting to Christianity? And if they do, can they do it publicly and without worrying about their personal safety? Have you personally witnessed, or been told about, any baptisms of formerly Muslim converts to Christianity (whether to Orthodoxy, Catholicism, or Evangelical Protestant)?

Further question: are the Christians, or the Christian and secular men, welcome to drop in at the mosque? If Albanian Muslims observe Ramadan, do they invite their Christian 'friends' to the Iftar dinner?

4. There is, you say, one Catholic church in Prishtina. How easy do you think it would be for Catholics in Kosovo, or in Albania, to build new churches? How easy would it be for ALBANIAN Orthodox Christians, inside Albania, or in Kosovo, to build new churches? Do you know of any newly-built Catholic or Albanian Orthodox churches, in either Albania, or in Kosovo?

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at August 10, 2008 5:46 AM

"There’s almost no friction between the religious groups".

*Almost* none is NOT the same as *none*. So there *is* some friction, isn't there?

SHKODER, Albania; March 29: Muslims in Albania's northern city of Shkoder are opposing plans to erect a statue to Mother Teresa, the ethnic Albanian Catholic nun in line for elevation to sainthood by the Vatican.

The dispute is unusual for Albania, where religion was banned for 27 years under the regime of dictator Enver Hoxha and where religious harmony and mixed marriages are the norm.

Seventy percent of the population are liberal Muslims, the rest are Christian Orthodox and Catholic.

But Muslim groups in Shkoder rejected the local council plan for a Teresa statue, saying it "would offend the feelings of Muslims"....."

http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=65161

Posted by: ujaklija at August 10, 2008 1:58 PM

Serbs didn't start wars against Slovenia and Croatia, inform your self better.

My bad: Croatia shelled it's own cities and like Slovenia they hired tank brigades to frame the pure-as-snow Serbs.

Yes...but: how many Muslim-background Albanian Christians do you know, either personally or anecdotally? Are many Albanian Muslims converting to Christianity? And if they do, can they do it publicly and without worrying about their personal safety? Have you personally witnessed, or been told about, any baptisms of formerly Muslim converts to Christianity (whether to Orthodoxy, Catholicism, or Evangelical Protestant)?

As many as they want to. Albania and Kosovo are FULL of missionaires.
see http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/21/kosovanandcatholic

"Just last week, a group of 32 individuals of the same family, the Sopi of Lapushnik, converted to Catholicism. Lapushnik is a village located in the north-eastern part of Kosovo, in the same region of Drenica that was the cradle of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) and that has traditionally harboured the more fierce resistance against Belgrade. A spokesperson for the family, Ismet Sopi, has told local journalists that there are many more people who intend to convert from Islam in that region, "maybe as many as 320 or 3,200".

During a visit to the Pristina parish this weekend, we learned that a family of six was recently accepted into the church after a year of practice and preparation. All of a sudden, the plan to build a cathedral in the very centre of Pristina does not seem absurd anymore. There are only a few Catholics in the capital of Kosovo, and about 60,000 in the whole country. But this is an old figure and if the most recent conversions are not just an extraordinary event, the trend could change the face of the nation."

and this:

Mr. Robertson, we who are on the ground working to spread the Gospel in Kosovo are convinced that the bishop has shown you a distorted picture. We would like to share with you some of our observations and to plead with you to listen to our perspective before taking any action in this matter.

First of all, we find it troubling that Bishop Artemije of all people would turn to American evangelical leaders for help. This same bishop has consistently proven as fierce a foe of evangelicals here in the former Yugoslavia as any Muslim leader. In an article in a Serbian Orthodox publication, he anathematized anyone who set foot in a Protestant church. Our brothers and sisters in Serbia still suffer discrimination and sometimes outright persecution as a result of the influence of church leaders such as Bishop Artemije. We wonder whether the bishop considers his efforts to stamp out evangelicalism as part of his defense against the destruction of Christianity in this part of the world.

Today in predominantly Muslim Kosovo, evangelicals have more legal rights than in predominantly Orthodox Christian Serbia. In fact, Both parliaments passed religious laws in the past year. The Kosovo law provides one of the strongest guarantees of religious liberty in all Europe, recognizing the Protestant community by name. The Serbian law favors the Orthodox Church and serves to legitimize longstanding discrimination of evangelicals.

The bishop’s claim that an independent Kosovo would become an Al Qaeda base also strikes those of us here on the ground as absurd. Kosovar Albanians are by and large more pro-American than Americans themselves. The stars and stripes flies side by side with the Albanian two-headed eagle all across Kosovo. This past year, thousands of local people gathered in cities, towns and villages on the Fourth of July to share in America’s joy then again on the 11th of September to share in America’s mourning. A popular saying here is, “God in heaven; America on earth!”
More here: pcpf.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=379&Itemid=45

To that person that found a "group of Muslims" that opposed a Cathedral: they are 7 million Albanians in the Balkans, so you will find something for every POV if you look deep enough. In America it takes a fax machine and a name and AP will quote you as "a concerned citizen." Ironically, it was built and no one touched it. You will also find that brothers hate brothers and some even hate their moms. What does it mean? Nothing. If an Albanian does something stupid doesn't mean that "Albanians are terrorists."

Regarding marriages: I can honestly say that it is not an issue at ALL, in dozens and dozens and dozens of cases that any Albanian knows.

They are tens and tens of Churches built in Albania and the South has dozens of Orthodox Churches.

See this for Orthodox orthodoxalbania.org/English/MainMenu.html

(^^ a Greek Bishop is running but Albanians want their own bishops given the history of Greece vs Albania where the Greek church conspired with the Turks to ban Albanian language among many other things)

and Google "Albanian Catholic Churches." They are probably over 100 Catholic Churches in Albania. All new, post 1990's.

FYI: They is more than one Catholic Church in Kosovo, there is even a protestant one. If you have the cash, build it. A Huge Mother Teresa Cathedral is being built in Prishtina. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N0c8EmLbwM and they're looking for donations. Some people did get upset because a Mosque permit for there was denied and a school was there.

Will some people still grumble and mumble under their breath? Sure, everyone thinks that their religion is best and many see a rushed push toward Catholicism to appease EU. Will anyone touch it? Not so far, and if they do, cops will hang them.

You guys need to realize that Serbs have fooled you with "Albanian Taleban" and "Narco State" crap.

Posted by: nameless-fool at August 10, 2008 3:48 PM

Nameless,

I said you have to learn basic facts. Slovenian and Croatian gangs started the war by attacking Federal Yugoslav Army, which was there to protect the constitution, as in any other country. It was not some invading army from Serbia or Mars, but was there as all other armies in their coutries.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at August 10, 2008 9:05 PM

Lazar, I paid attention as Slobodan Milosevic got his nosed bloodied by the Slovenian national guard; and as he responded, in turn, first to Croatia's bid for independence, then Bosnia's, by unleashing the Dogs of War--in my mind, it's Slobo's fault.

Posted by: John C at August 10, 2008 11:02 PM

I'm sorry to add a sceptical note to Nameless Fool's depiction of sweet harmony in Albania. With Sarajevo now reduced to a Muslim 'monoethnic' city, Kosova following the same route and the jihadists already infiltrating Albania how long before the 'syncretistic' Muslims there succumb to the pressure from 'pure' Muslims? In the end it is often the accusation of apostasy and its consequences and the fear of hell that forces Muslims to conform.

The Muslims of Albania have a unique chance to stand up to the proselytising madness that is God-cum-Mohammed's message that we must all give up our will to God despite the fact that He created that will (For what purpose then other than to use it?), and that we should constantly please this egotistical being called Allah by obeying a set of rules designed, it seems to me, 1. for making people subservient to and in a state of hushed adulation towards Mohammed, and 2. for coping with the struggles of living in the dessert in the 7th century.

Can the Albanians stand up against the radicalising forces now at work in the world in Islam? It would be marvellous if they could - such a stance could bring about a real turning point towards sanity and peace in the world. But this would go against the tide and I really can't see it happening.

Posted by: Symphony Wales at August 12, 2008 7:15 AM

With Sarajevo now reduced to a Muslim 'monoethnic' city, Kosova following the same route and the jihadists already infiltrating Albania how long before the 'syncretistic' Muslims there succumb to the pressure from 'pure' Muslims?

I know nothing of Sarajevo, but i know that Foca is now 100% Serbian, called Srbnje, thanks to the rapes and exterminations by the Serbs in concentration camps (they also raped Catholic Croatians fyi.) They are really good Christians those Serbs, a perfect example to be used by the Wahhabis. Their best selling point is this: "Serbs, the christians, raped your mom and sister, killed your brother, burned your house and ruined your life so join us"

How about providing a link for the "jihadists already infiltrating Albania" and "Kosova following the same route" ? Serbianna et al do not count, nor do Serb sources. (so don't bother with savekosovo.org, balkanpeace.org, Gorin, tenc and so on.)

Jihadists were sent to Egypt as soon as they showed up by the Albanian government and Albanian catholics and evangelicals are prospering in Kosovo. The Serbian "Church" for obvious reasons is not popular in Kosovo nor Albania and Catholics hate Serbs just as much, if not more since they have been fighting the slav invaders for ages and were supposed to pay tax to the Serbian Church too, thanks to the Serbian Church's collaboration with the Turks.

Why is it so hard to admit that Serbs fooled you ? They are great at lying. Since 1389 they have been practicing, a pathetic surrender with 'please don't kill me' was turned into "we saved Europe." Albanians on the other hand did beat two Sultans at least a dozen times.

Posted by: nameless-fool at August 12, 2008 11:12 PM