Has anyone considered that maybe the Russians are trying to run interference for the muslims? Given how tight the Russians are with Iran and other Muslims, it is certainly a possibility. I'm not say that this is the main reason why they invaded Georgia, but it could be a minor reason.

Posted by: Balrog at August 15, 2008 11:03 AM

Russia is a state, with clearly delineated borders. So is Georgia, so is Ukraine. When our frame of reference is the nation-state we have no problem recognizing Russian aggression. Russia has its own history. The history of the Russian and Soviet empires can be referenced without stepping on any toes.
Muslims can be found in any country. They are of every nationality. Their ethnicity may be Arab or Persian but they are legally Americans, Britons, French, Russians, etc.
Iranians would resist any comparison with Arab Muslims. Then there are the "moderate Muslims" who would prevent us from labeling any acts of individuals as acts stemming from Islam.
The media had an easier time dealing with the PLO, Islamic Jihad, Hamas and the like. The groups could be defined and the media were allowed to separate these groups from the people who supported them. How do you separate Islam from the people who support it? Calling something Islamic imperialism means over one billion people will take offense. Arabs won't want to be held responsible for something done by Iran, for instance. Modern-day Muslims will resist being associated with the actions of the Ottomans in the 20th century. Turkey would be the only country that couldn't dodge such a comparison and even they will try, saying that the country that Ataturk established has nothing to do with the Ottoman Empire. Russians don't have that luxury. Russian history is Russian history. It's also recent history. Putin can't disassociate himself from the Cold War or from the Soviet Union.

Posted by: PMK at August 15, 2008 11:04 AM

During the Soviet era, a much-debated question among scholars and experts was how much of Soviet tyranny and aggression was due to Bolshevism, and how much due to historical Russian behavior. Apologists for communism pointed to the tsarist regime's conquest of Central Asia, its aggression towards the Turkish and Persian Empires (supposedly part of a "drive for warm-water ports), its brutal suppression of dissent, and its network of Siberian prison camps and colonies. They argued that the Bolsheviks were merely continuing the tsarist program. And by implication communist regimes established in more liberal and peaceful countries would themselves be more liberal and benign.
Critics of communism argued that its horrors and atrocities were the product of communism itself, that its crimes were several orders of magnitude worse than those of the tsars, so much worse that they represented a break with past, not a continuation of it. And by implication any country, no matter how liberal or free, could expect similar results fro a communist take-over.
Both sides had their experts, and their learned arguments. But the important point was that there was a real debate, and those in power heard both sides.
In the current situation with Islam, those in power in the government and the MSM seem willing to listen only to the "experts" on one side, the apologists for Islam at the "Islamic Studies" departments and the left-wing think-tanks. Those who point out the historical roots of Islamic aggression and tyranny are dismissed as bigots and/or racists. So our leadership remains uninformed and ill-advised.

Posted by: ebonystone at August 15, 2008 11:11 AM

Russia is acting like a big country in a real world. They are only expanding in a vacuum left by American mealy-mouthed double-talking 'limited war' feel-goodism. America's cultural coherence, its economy and its 'moral center' are disintegrating by the DAY. Islam, China, Russia are stepping stunned and blinking into a new day to find the world before them for the taking.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at August 15, 2008 11:40 AM

It's easier to concentrate on the Russian threat, which has been a part of American history for quite a while. Presidential candidates can do less research on it, and can still have an general grasp of the situation. However, the Islamic threat is new to the West, and would require research- which is, of course, easily done. The problem comes with the fact that this "research," if done correctly, can only lead to opinions that will be called "racist" and "hate mongering." Consequently, the politicians just avoid it all together and focus instead on what they know. In other words, it's OK to fear the Russians, but not OK to fear Islamic jihad. Sad, but true.

Posted by: s at August 15, 2008 11:43 AM

"Roars about Russia, Nary a Whisper about Islam,"

Oh yes, I definitely thought about that in the past few days, and how utterly and completely ironic it is.

PC to condemn the "Russkies" but not the Global Jihad, which is a menace and threat to the entire world.

Sad, sad, sad.

Posted by: darcy at August 15, 2008 11:46 AM

"Most Ossetians are now Christian (approximately 61%); there is also a significant Muslim minority."

I picked this up on another website. How much is Islam involved in this war as well? Is Moscow giving Russian passports to Muslims?
Is South Ossetia another Bosnia?

Posted by: PMK at August 15, 2008 12:00 PM

It is so easy to savage the Russians because they won't indulge in terrorism and suicide bombings in NY or London. The far worse savagery of Islam only promotes more PC speak. I don't understand this disease that afflicts all infidel nations. Why can't our so-called leaders call a spade a spade where it concerns Islam?

Posted by: IndianTiger at August 15, 2008 12:02 PM

In other words, no pattern of avowedly Islam-inspired violence in the world has ever earned a headline nearly as straightforward as "Islamic jihad is back."

To be honest, Islamic jihad never goes anywhere. It is a constant feature of Islamic culture since the seventh century.

Posted by: tanstaafl at August 15, 2008 12:34 PM

Russia's a bully. So's Islam. But the former is a nation state and thus allowed to be criticized. The latter is a religion and gets cover for this very reason. This must change if the West is going to prevail.

Posted by: Wellington at August 15, 2008 1:14 PM

Its about Money.

A new cold or hot war with the Russians makes a new trillion dollar arms race inevitable which means conservatives stand to make bucket loads of money.

There is no money to be made fighting the Islamic threat. No need for exotic billion dollar airplanes, stealth warships, robotic tanks, etc.

Posted by: waltc at August 15, 2008 1:23 PM

Well, we fully expect this sort of thing from Russia, not a peaceful religion like Islam / sarc off.

Besides, Russia doesn't have the same level of support as Islam does from it's breeders and followers, nor does Russia offer any afterlife perks. Russia needs to get their game-on and find some way to turn their communist ambitions into a religion (or whatever they call themselves, they're communist, they aren't communist, they act communist, confusing!).

Anyway, they could spread their agenda faster if they could get everyone else with some religious perks, here! ...there I go being sarcastic again.

Posted by: champ at August 15, 2008 1:33 PM

....oops....they could get everyone else "on board" with some religious perks...

Posted by: champ at August 15, 2008 1:35 PM

waltc: Just as much money, if not more, could have been made by Americans and Europeans in a vastly resource-rich, peaceful Russia had Russia not played the paranoid yet again and shown to the world (yet again) that it does not comprehend freedom. Sometimes the money angle is too cynical and I respectfully submit to you that thinking the West wants some kind of war with Russia for purposes of acquiring a lot of green paper is just not the case.

Many times priciples drive policy, not money. No more so than with the Anglo-Saxon world. As examples, the British Navy shut down the African slave trade in the nineteenth century chiefly because it was the right thing to do. America rebuilt Europe after WWII, in large part because it was morally incumbent upon us to do so, though it also served our interests. But, then, one looks upon altruism too ideally if he expects a complete dearth of self-interest thrown in for good measure. Also, as Dennis Prager has noted, almost without exception acting upon principle is confined to the West. Leave the Western world (and Russia is not really part of it) and principles become scarce, real quick like.

Posted by: Wellington at August 15, 2008 1:43 PM

Seems like you've inspired someone else...

Islamic Terrorism Ignored by Mainstream Media

They're right - more people need to complain about this!

Posted by: Suziq at August 15, 2008 3:28 PM

Russia is a country with a border and when acting like a bully which they love to do, it is quite easy for the world to see and condemm. Unlike islam where no arab/muslim country can actually or have the nerve to attack as a country, they attack in ambush as told by their cowardly murderous rapist/thief of a prophet mo.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at August 15, 2008 3:36 PM

The Russian ‘Bear’ may have teeth in the old Imperial style, though long in the tooth and more like a garbage dump nuisance, though still dangerous. But the Islamic ‘imperialism’ is the threat it had always been, for 1400 years of Jihad, and like a juggernaut zombie it never tires of it slow or fast insidious attacks against our principles of freedom and equal human rights. They remind me of “Empire of the Ants” or “Leiningen versus the Ants.”

That Islamic ‘ant’ is more like Amazon formicidae, which cannot survive long without its army of slaves. Swarming soldier ants must have their food source, or its ‘imperialism’ will cease to exist. So we must take their ‘soldier ants’ food away from them. We can do that, first by correctly identifying the ideology that sustains the slaves, and second by taking away their source, the imams and madrassas funded by our petrodollars. Then apply the right kind of ‘pest control’ through education of its young: through our principles of rule of law, constitutional governance, equality before the law, gender equality, freedom of speech, freedom of belief, freedom of the arts, democratic principles of government, and intellectual principles of reason and science to wean them off superstitious blind belief in some primitive 7th century barbarian’s view of the universe, and his Allah god. Once the slaves no longer feed the masters, the Islamic ‘imperialism’ dies off, along with their hate spouting imams. We can win against this swarming threat by using our intelligence, same as the Russian bear can be diverted from the dump, by teaching it the values of its natural freedoms. Perhaps then they can evolve from formicinae into something more modern and less rapacious than 7th century Islam.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at August 15, 2008 3:52 PM

I'll admit that I originally thought that South Ossetia was going to be another Bosnia, but now I'm not so sure because we aren't going in to help them. We took the wrong side in the Balkan Wars, but we don't seem to actively be taking a side in this war.

Posted by: Natalie at August 15, 2008 4:49 PM

Don't forget that there's a learning curve re Islam and we're only a little way up it. That's especially true for the older battlewagons like McCain, for example. That explains the knee-jerk clarity in denouncing Russia.
I despise Russia; it supplies all the Khomeinist forces with the latest weapons; it's an anti-Semitic cesspool. But...Shaakashvili did attack South Ossetia, and I think he did it figuring his Western allies would come to the rescue. He's a fool.
Meanwhile, recognizing Kosovo was an incredibly stupid move by our government. It antagonized Russia needlessly, and we do need their cooperation, however flawed it is. We should revoke that recognition and apologize for Georgia's impetuousity. Instead we get a lot of handwringing from the likes of Condi while we curse the Russians. The result may be even less cooperation against Isalmo-fascism and a resurgent Russian empire. If we're not willing to use military force, then let's use more intelligent diplomacy.

Posted by: jewdog at August 15, 2008 5:48 PM

And why taking sides?

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at August 15, 2008 5:49 PM

"Bush accuses Russia of bullying and intimidation":

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080815/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush

But, allah Forbid he would NEVER accuse the Islamic Jihadists!

Posted by: darcy at August 15, 2008 6:00 PM

Nah darcy, islam means "peace".
blah

Posted by: interestinconundrum at August 15, 2008 7:22 PM

From West:

I'm afraid all the radical, fasco-Russian tsarismists will have to abandon their quest for world domination before we hear anything like that.

That might be the funniest, most brilliant, insightful statement of the year.

And omg she is a babe.

Posted by: Moonzoo at August 15, 2008 9:21 PM

Oh, and btw, speaking of ironies, how does one reconcile the Putin Russia and the Dostoyevsky/Tolstoy Russia? Or for that matter, the profoundly Christian Russia?

And yes, I have read The Possessed.

Despair is in the soul, I guess.

Posted by: Moonzoo at August 15, 2008 9:30 PM

"And what American presidential candidate would ever explain the Islamic push, financial and otherwise, in the West for mosque construction, Islamic schools (madrassas), campus Islamic studies (apologetics) departments, Sharia law-inspired legal challenges, lobbying for Sharia-compliant banking and the like as a matter of Islamic imperialism?"

yep....

Posted by: pulsar182 at August 16, 2008 8:54 AM

Wow! I can believe all the political correctness being posted on this story. This is probably one or two conflicts that has nothing to do with Islam. Based on the news from both sides, I see that Georgia has been sucking up to the USA by sending troops to Iraq and its desire to join NATO. Then Georgia massacres the breakaway region of North Ossetia who want to cede with Russia. Russia steps in to protect the citizens from the Georgians. And now Georgia wants the Bush administration to help them in the massacre and Bush's Administration gives in. Bush as well as America's allies should butt out and stay out! Sorry, I side with Russia on this one...

Posted by: Dobra Dyen at August 16, 2008 11:04 AM

Dobra Dyen: Seems you've bought just about all the propaganda the Russians have spewed out about Georgia, America and NATO. I'm glad the leaders of Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Ukraine see things differently. Perhaps you should reconsider.

Posted by: Wellington at August 16, 2008 12:11 PM

:-)

The craziest 'Muslims' are the ones being aided by the Russians. Russia is arming Iran to the teeth and is helping them nukes too. So the "evil empire is arming crazy Islamists."

And Russia is far from Christian, facade aside.

"MOSCOW, December 26 (RIA Novosti) - Russia is expected to donate 50 armored personnel carriers (APCs) and two Mi-17 transport helicopters to Palestine, a source close to the negotiations said Monday.

"We will supply the equipment to Palestine as aid," the source said.

The arrangement, including financing, has already been agreed on by all the ministries involved. However, it is not yet clear when the deliveries will take place, the source said.

Relevant issues have also been agreed on with Israel, the source added.

In February, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said: "We supplied military equipment to the Palestinians earlier. They recently approached us with a request for more equipment, including APCs. This request is being studied, and the Russian leaders are in support of it."

In October, Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said Defense Ministry and Interior Ministry officials were visiting Palestine to look into the possibility of providing assistance to Palestinian security forces and police."

Posted by: nameless-fool at August 16, 2008 12:50 PM

Well Nameless,

In that sense the USA is not any better, if not worse than Russia:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/28/washington/28weapons.html

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jTYBWxbnwoby8z38DtzDO_W31Bww

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at August 16, 2008 4:57 PM

Diana darling! Diana darling! You are so very right! Could not have said better myself! Kudos, kudos, kudos! I wish we had more intelligent, courageous people like you!
The degenerate elites who totally dominate the politics and public discourse in the Western world are acting like a pack of supid monkies harrassing a bear in his own cave, raising shrill noise and hurling sticks and stones at him, even as a pack of rabid Islamic Jihad hyenas are stalking them from behind, ready to sink their sharp teeth into monkies' asses.

Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.

Posted by: Enragedsince1999 at August 16, 2008 6:46 PM

Enragedsince1999: Harrassing a bear in his own cave? Ah yes, a fine euphemism for allowing the Russians to continue to think of their neighbors as vassals or enemies. Would love to be in a room full of Poles or Estonians or Latvians or Lithuanians or Georgians when you explain your position. I'd even have you pose for pictures with them. Yeah, a precious moment to be sure.

Posted by: Wellington at August 16, 2008 8:47 PM

Wellington, do you really know what is going on? The PC media ignores terrorist attacks in Sochi, and ignores the fact that several S. Ossetians were burned alive. Now Russia has to take the refugees from the Georgian oppressed region. This kind of reminds me of Sunday Bloody Sunday when the British Troops invaded Northern Ireland back in January 1972.

Posted by: Dobra Dyen at August 16, 2008 11:07 PM

Dobra Dyen: Ah, but do you know what is going on? Look, I'm not going to exculpate Georgians completely (which party to a conflict is ever entirely innocent?), although it appears you are not prepared to fault Russians or Ossetians at all. What seems incontrovertible is that over the past half year or so Russia has goaded Georgia into trying to take back a part of its own country (South Ossetia) that virtually every nation on earth recognizes as part of Georgia.

Georgia took the bait and Russia, which was obviously preping for this, used Georgia's attempt to reclaim its own territory as an excuse to come in and rape Georgia. Have you no feelings for the average Georgian? Or don't they count?

Also, if you are correct in your assessment, then the leaders of Poland, Estonnia, Latvia, Lithuania and Ukraine, who flew to Tblisi the other day to show unity with Saakashvilli and Georgia, are mistaken. Do you really think you know something that these five leaders do not? I highly doubt it. I'm with them, not you.

What is really going on is that Russia, deficient in an understanding of freedom, and paranoid and xenophobic as usual, is trying to reclaim the "Near Abroad." This is what is really happening. Time to wake up.

Posted by: Wellington at August 17, 2008 12:03 AM

Has anyone considered that maybe the Russians are trying to run interference for the muslims?

Posted by Balrog above.
-----------------------------------------

It is Georgia that has supported every Muslim terror attack against Russia. After Beslan, Georgia gave refuge to the Chechen planners. In fact, When Russia moved into Chechnya, the Georgians allowed the Chechen Islamist to use Georgia for cross-border attacks on Russia. Georgia also loudly supports the Muslims in Kosovo against the Christian Serbs and has given assistance to Muslim Azerbaijan against Armenia.

Remember, Georgia fired the first shot in this war. They waited till Putin was in Beijing and sent their army into Ossetia killing hundreds of Russian citizens. Russia is only acting as any great nation would. I pray they will not stop until they are in Tiblisi.

Slava Russiya!

Posted by: Provoslavni at August 17, 2008 12:21 AM

Provoslavni: Sometimes it's hard to say exactly where the truth lies. I have come across much information to the effect that Ossetians, backed by Russia, over the past year have launched attacks form South Ossetia into other parts of Georgia. If true, then why wouldn't Georgia want to stop this? Also, for some sixteen years, ever since the break-up of the USSR (and before the West supported an independent Kosovo), Russia has refused to acknowledge that South Ossetia is part of Gerogia, even though the world community does. If you were a Georgian, how would you take this?

But the bigger picture is what I mentioned above and that is that Russia cannot tolerate equals on its borders. It must dominate neighboring states or treat them as enemies. Herein lies the real problem. If you don't believe me, try asking a Pole, an Estonian, a Latvian, a Lithuanian, a Romanian, a....... Or are all these people just deluded and simply don't understand poor Holy Mother Russia?

Posted by: Wellington at August 17, 2008 1:15 AM

Wellington I am not going to argue or refute you. Please watch this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtOlmWeKWng&feature=related

Posted by: Dobra Dyen at August 17, 2008 1:38 AM

Dobra Dyen: I just watched the entire six minutes and forty-seven seconds of the video you provided a link to. The young man was spouting pure Russian propaganda, not backed up by any third-party sources. Not only could he not find anything kind to say about Georgia, but he referred to several other nations, Estonia and Poland among them, as "prostitutes." What rubbish. Also, he seemed oblivious of the fact that every military commentator (e.g., Ralph Peters) has pointed out that the kind of military endeavor Russia has engaged in in Gerogia had to be months in the planning. In other words, Georgia was set up. If you wish to accept such a biased, one-sided account, be my guest. I will not. What I've seen so far from most defenders of Russia's action is akin to blaming the woman for being raped.

By the way, as another indication of just how much of a bully Russia really is, yesterday one of its leading military figures said that Poland could expect a 100% assurance that Russia would respond militarily to Poland stationing a mere ten or so interceptor missiles (completley defensive) in its country. Never has the United States of America threatened military retaliation toward any free, democratic, peaceful society such as Poland is, and for doing no more than trying to defend itself against a rogue missile or two should the missile delivery system of a nation like Iran improve. Russia has thousands of nuclear warheads. How could a handful of defensive missiles be a threat to such an arsenal? This is an utter disgrace and yet another indication that Russia doesn't understand freedom, can't treat with its neighbors in a civilized fashion and wrongly sees NATO, the greatest military alliance in man's history for protecting and promoting freedom, as inimical.

Interesting that almost all Eastern European nations look upon NATO as a great and decent alliance. Speaks volumes about Russia that it does not. Russia is now on a course that will do no one any good, including Russians, who will be made small people once again by a ruthless leader who does not allow real dissent in his own country (especialy if you're a journalist) and will not tolerate anything but vassal states on his European borders. I'm getting very tired of Russia. Again.

Posted by: Wellington at August 17, 2008 2:23 AM

Hi,
Vote bank politics of Democracies are the main reason. they just donot want to face upto facts.
How Bush was pleading to jehadies that during 9/11, some Muslims are also killed.Ditto about the recent blasts in India in which they targetted a hospital( timed with the biggest car bomb) to go off last so that maximum casulaties could be achieved.But this news was never highlighted but when Kahmiri sepratis are stopped by Indian security forces from going to pakistan by firing and force , it is hailed as human rights violation. what hypcrcysy.

Posted by: captain at August 17, 2008 8:14 AM

Wellington my brother, you are also very biased. The amount of lies in western media today on some issues is worse than what I saw in communist propaganda 20 years ago.

Anyway, the USA and Russia should work together against the common enemy. I don't see neither willing to compromise on less important issues in order to join forces on the important one.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at August 17, 2008 12:26 PM

PMK,

The South Ossetians are 100% Christian. The North Ossetians on the Russian side of the Caucasus Mountains are overwhelmingly Christian, with a small Muslim minority - the only predominantly Christian people in the region. Because of that, they welcomed the Russians in the 19th century, and have remained unflinchingly loyal to Russia, Tsars or Commissars, and to this day. So, why aren't the Christian Ossetians in South Ossetia loyal to Christian Georgia? Because after gaining independence from Russia, Georgia's first president was Zviad Gamsakhurdia, a totally deranged hyper-nationalist that would make even the nutcase Saakashvili look sensible in comparison. He wouldn't even consider letting South Ossetia and Abkhazia keep their modest Soviet-era authonomies. Far worse, he teemed-up with a career common criminal Dzhaba Ioseliani and his Mkhedrioni militia in widespread abuses and pogroms of Ossetian and Abkhaz civilians, which caused those 2 peoples to revolt and successfully gain freedom, with the aid of Russian Special Forces who trained them.
For the next 16 years, the 2 territories were serene, with the Russian peacekeepers - yes, keeping the peace. There were no "Ossetian shootings" into Georgia - J.Sobieski & Wellington are making this "information" up - and Wellington accuses others of bias! The quiet ended last month, however, as the degenerate Rice and her State Dept. decided to "test" Russia, and began goading Georgia into thuggery. Saakashvili-the-nut needed no convincing:
A railroad in Abkhazia that was being built by workers from Russia was bombed. An Abkhaz Security Officer was assassinated when a cafe he was dining in was blown up. A bombing and sniping assassination attempts on South Ossetian leaders were perpetrated, twice. And throughout this Georgian terrorism, the US State Dept. suddenly turned on Russia with unbelievable bellicosity, predicting "terrible bloodshed" that they themselves were determined to cause, and "pre-blaiming" Russia for it in advance. The female buffoon Rice went to Georgia and posed for pictures there, with pompous tough look on her face, as "standing by Georgia's side". A non-stop stream of her State Dept. sociopaths followed throughout July, trash talking to Russia, standing before hordes of media and directly addressing the Russian government with lines like: "North Ossetia and Abkhazia are under the authority of the Georgian government, period. The days of empire are over". Absolutely openly goaded by those sociopaths, Georgia sharply escalated mortar and sniper fire on Aug. 1 & 4 to "test Russia's reaction". And the "D-Day" came at the last night hours of Aug. 7, right after Putin left for Beijing. A horrendous mass murder of Russian civilians, far greater then Beslan, where absolute majority of victims were also Ossetians.

Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.

Posted by: Enragedsince1999 at August 17, 2008 4:55 PM

Dobra Dyan, Lazar, and Enraged,

All excellent posts!
--------------------------

Wellington,

It was Stalin who split Ossetia in half and gave the South Ossetians (and the Abkhazians) over to the rule of his fellow Georgian Commisars. Stalin was one of the most evil criminals that ever lived and you are supporting a continuation of his policies.

Mikheil Saakashvili invaded Ossetia partly to divert attention from his own failed policies and rampant corruption. Just last year, the Georgia people rose up againt Saakashvili because of the political murders he ordered. The demonstrations were crushed by violent force. After which, he called early election with many opposition leaders imprisoned and unable to prevent a Zimbabwe-style stolen election.

The one Georgian institution that has the standing to lead Georgia, the Georgian Orthodox Church, completely opposes Geogia's violent attack on Russia. So it is not just the Ossetians and Abkhazians who support Russia in this war. Many Georgias are praying that Russia will take Tiblisi and liberate all of Georgia from Saakashvili's tyranny.

Posted by: Provoslavni at August 17, 2008 6:57 PM

Provoslavni: You assert a lot, some of which I cannot independently verify, but I hardly think I'm supporting Stalin's policies because he split Ossetia in two and gave the southern part to Georgia, where I aver it should remain and which is considered by the international community to this day as part of Georgia. To argue otherwise would mean that unless one supports the return of the Crimea, given in the 1950s by Khrushchev to the Ukrainian SSR, to Russia, one is therefore supporting Nikita and the heinous polity which was the USSR. Give me a break.

As for many Georgians praying for Russia to succeed in their invasion of Georgian territory, you outdo yourself again in accepting what is obviously propaganda. John McCain and many other prominent Westerners (including the leaders of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Ukraine) have stood solidly behind Saakashvilli. Who do you invoke to back up your contention that Saakashvilli is a villain? Putin? His butt boy, Medvedev? The Russian press? The Russian military? For now, I'm going with those I cited above. Really, the efforts I've seen so far to justify Russia's violation of Georgian territory are pathetic.

Posted by: Wellington at August 17, 2008 9:33 PM

What just happened should be enough for everyone to see that Saakashvilli is complete idiot.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at August 17, 2008 10:12 PM

LazarOfSerbia: Could you be a little clearer (it would be hard to be more opaque than is your last post)? What, exactly, "just happened?" Also, the Western media is far from perfect, but to put it below the Communist press from Cold War times just weakens your argument (only trying to be helpful, pal).

Posted by: Wellington at August 17, 2008 10:21 PM

Well, about media, I saw both. In communism we all knew that what we saw in the media was b.s. Communism was open dictatorship, you knew what is forbidden to say and that's it - people had their mind and their opinion, even if they had to keep it for themselves. But someone behind your media is consciously manipulating millions of people, which is scary. Most Americans accept almost everything they see in the news without question (why would they doubt it when you have "democratic" media...). So, as I see it, it is worse. I prefer open dictatorship over hidden manipulation.

What "just happened" is that Georgian president did something very stupid (by attacking S.Ossetia) which will cost his country a lot. My gandma would know better.

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at August 17, 2008 11:25 PM

LazarOfSerbia: Well, first of all, I want you to know that even though we may disagree on several matters, I respect you and will consider your point of view on controversial issues seriously. After all, one does not have to be disagreeable to disagree. Having said this I would assert the following:

Point One: Actually, a hell of a lot of Americans don't accept what they see in the news without question. Americans tend to be a skeptical lot, from the American Revolution onwards to the present day, and the Internet, Fox News and talk radio has only contributed all the more to such skepticism. In fact, when polls are taken in America, just about the least respected professionals of them all are journalists. This doesn't square with your above contention that Americans are gullible re the media.

Point Two: Saakashvilli's "attack" on South Ossetia was, according to many, including very informed folks like John Bolton and John McCain, due to Ossetian and Russian provocation for months from South Ossetia upon Georgia proper. And, as many military observers have noted, the fact that Russia was able to go into Georgia with such a large force within hours is only dispositive of the fact that Russia was preparing for months for just this opportunity, giving greater credence to the hypothesis that Saakashvilli and his fellow Georgians were set up. Yeah, the Georgians took the bait, but if what I wrote above is even half true, who could blame them? Enough is enough. Besides, Russia is losing the PR war in all this. Sure, it has some defenders, but most of the world is siding with Georgia, including almost all of Russia's neighbors. So who is the stupid one here in the long run?

Point Three: Democracy is far from perfect and often very messy, but I will take it over dictatorship any day of the week. And I have no doubt Abraham Lincoln would be on my side in this one.

Posted by: Wellington at August 17, 2008 11:51 PM

Read this about your democracy my friend:

http://www.newstatesman.com/europe/2008/08/pilger-kosovo-war-nato-serbs

Posted by: LazarOfSerbia at August 18, 2008 11:48 PM