"Canadian intelligence officials..........." ?

There's your problem right there. They s/b called 'canadian stupidity officials'.

Posted by: n.a. palm at August 27, 2008 9:27 AM

well, there it is. our gov't, asking the muslim's help, get nothing at all. maybe they didn't help because islam doesn't need it. they no longer want police interfluence with their jihad.

Posted by: theygottago at August 27, 2008 9:35 AM

Sadly, CSIS and the RCMP have lost credibility, not only with muslims, but with the country as a whole.

And with organizations like the UN, and with the "leaders" we have, it seems the entire Western World is losing credibility.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at August 27, 2008 9:44 AM

"I want you to help... Us doing it alone is like one hand clapping," Ellis told the group on August 16 in Toronto."
-- from the article above, quoting a Canadian official

He's got the wrong audience. It is only Christians, Jews, and other non-Muslims who would both recognize, and respond to, a Zen koan.

Posted by: Hugh at August 27, 2008 9:51 AM

I'm imagining I'm a moderate Canadian Moslem. I'm sickened by the terrorism and other barbarities practiced by many of my co-religionists. I'm concerned about some of the questionable associates of the imam at my mosque, and about some of the strange goings-on there. I'm worried about some of the Islamic groups at my older son's university, trying to reruit him, and about Islamic websites that my younger son views on the internet.
But what am I to do? If I go to the RCMP with my suspicions about the doings at my mosque it probably will be months, even years, before there are any convictions and prison terms. And my name will, one way or another, become known to these people, and I and my family will face reprisals up to and including death. And the Canadian authorities will do little to protect me.
On the other hand, assume I stay mum, and the RCMP are able to arrest these criminals, and I am implicated as a supporter, because I'm the Moslem equivalent of deacon or elder of my mosque. It may be a year or more before any trial, and I will have the support of dozens of Moslem and left-wing legal aid groups, all with deep pockets. Even if I'm convicted, all I'll face is maybe a year in the hoosegow, with a Koran to read, halal food to eat, and the protection of my fellow Islamic prisoners from the "indignities" of prison life, and hero-status in the Islamic community when I'm released.
The RCMP does not, and cannot, threaten me, because it is not ruthless. The Islamic thugs however are ruthless, they do have credibility.

Posted by: ebonystone at August 27, 2008 10:05 AM

This is of course just a guess on my part, but there is a good chance that most in the Muslim community, whether radical, moderate,or indifferent are fearful of being targeted by other Muslims as cooperating with the infidels.

What do you think??

Posted by: Mackie at August 27, 2008 10:11 AM

The hypothetical just above is interesting, but it leaves out one something important. It starts with the following:

"I'm imagining I'm a moderate Canadian Moslem. I'm sickened by the terrorism and other barbarities practiced by many of my co-religionists. I'm concerned about some of the questionable associates of the imam at my mosque, and about some of the strange goings-on there. I'm worried about some of the Islamic groups at my older son's university, trying to reruit him, and about Islamic websites that my younger son views on the internet."

What does the word "moderate" mean? Apparently, in this hypothetical, it is being used to excuse, on practical grounds - the "Islamists" are ruthless, the Mounties are insufficiently ruthless, so naturally in the tug between them, moderate Muslims will naturally remain "mum" - indeed, the hypothetical not implausibly offers a reason why.

But stand back for a minute. What constitutes a "moderate" Muslim? Is a "moderate" Muslim one whose failure to report those other Muslims, the "extremists" or "non-moderates" -- after all, this reporting can be done in any number of ways, including anonymous dime-dropping to the police or the RCMP -- can be so easily excused? And if the "moderates" constitute, as they must by definition, the "great mass" of Muslims -"extremists" are, supposedly, by the very word that defines them in terms of that central, "moderate," core, outliers, unrepresentative and presumably few in number -- why do not those "moderates" all join forces, since they surely (they do, don't they?) constitute the "great mass" of Muslims, and help each other, and protect each other, and make their mosques unwelcome places for "extremists."

Well, here's why. Because the definition of "moderate" is not provided, and if it were, it would be seen to be offering cold comfort. A "moderate" Muslim is in fact a Muslim who chooses to ignore, chooses to pretend does not exist, hundreds of passages in the Qur'an, hundres of the most important and "authentic" (as ranked by the most authoritative muhaddithin) Hadith, and the example of Muhammad, the Perfect Man, offers plenty of justification for those called "extremists" and it is the "moderates" who find themselves unable to admit that Muhammad was quite a lot less than perfect, and not to be held up as a model of conduct for all places and all times.

Essentially, the hypotehtical above rests on the notionn that the Canadian authorities do not inspire fear, and the "extremist" Muslims do. It relieves "moderate" Muslims, then, of any responsiblity either to choose sides, in the war being made on innocent Infidels by the "extremists," even justifies their failure to do anything. I don't think that was the intention, but it is certainly one possible and plausible reading.

It would be far better to tell those so-called "moderates" that if they cannot report on, work actively against, those who would kill Infidels or harm the legal and political institutions of Canada because those institutions are flatly contradicted by the letter and spirit of the Shari'a, than the word "moderate" means next to nothing, and they have failed in their duties -- for they have duties, as do all citizens in the advanced Western world, because they are not submissive slaves but citizens, with rights, and responsibilities -- and there is no reason why they should not be regarded with suspicioun and hostility, and their numbers not be permitted to increase through immigration by other Muslims, and anything that encourages them in their belief that they have a right to demand any changes in Canadian ways, or to freely conduct Da'wa, or otherwise "settle in" for the long Canadian winter, should be opposed. Sweetly, but firmly and implacably.

Posted by: Hugh at August 27, 2008 10:30 AM

What a stupid exercise by Canadian Intelligence and RCMP! Asking for help from the people(if you can call them that) who ARE the problem? It's not going to happen. Canadians need a dose of reality: to a Muslim, the Ummah is more important than nation. Plus, they are constant whiners when in minority but brutally oppressive when in majority.

Posted by: IndianTiger at August 27, 2008 11:12 AM

To the hypothetical "moderate Canadian Muslim":

Hugh has it right. If you don't stand up against them then you risk being considered one of them. You're afraid to speak up. Can we assume you will be equally afraid to speak up if the Canadian government takes actions against the Muslim community as a result of the violent intentions which you knew about but kept quiet about? I doubt it. You'll be out there on the picket line denouncing Canada as being unfair to Islam.
More than what does "moderate" mean, what does "Islam" mean to you? Is it something to be observed in the mosque and the home or do you want to see the caliphate reborn and made global? Is Islam something to which you voluntarily submit yourself or is it something that you expect the rest of the world to submit to, on pain of death? What parts of the non-Muslim community are you willing to accept? To tolerate isn't enough. What will you accept, as Canada accepted you?
You have the power to speak up. You keep silent. You will be judged by your actions and by the company you keep.

Posted by: PMK at August 27, 2008 11:20 AM

If there are "moderate" Muslims, there would be a "moderate" Islam to practice. As of this date, no such "enlightened" version of Islam has appeared. How do you tell the difference between a jihadist and a rank and file Mohammedan?

Posted by: tanstaafl at August 27, 2008 12:02 PM

Spying on or reporting fellow Muslims is haraam.
This is from an article by the Islamic Thinkers Society. Moderate or "extreme", what you will almost always find is Muslims closing ranks when confronted by unbelievers. You can blame it on fear of reprisals but it is also doctrine:

www.islamthinkers.com
NOTE: It has come to our attention once again that the kufr governments and regimes are trying hard to recruit Muslims to spy on their fellow brethren. Obviously, they will give it other names so as to justify the spying and offer bountiful of rewards for such actions. If one were to look at the action itself and see where it falls under in Islam, surely they would know that any from of spying on another Muslim is HARAAM. We would like to remind the Muslim communities and especially the masajjid with the article below which reminds Muslims not to fall victim to such trickery as taking upon this severe action makes a person sinful.

Using intelligence services against Muslims or working for or co-operating with any organization is Prohibited (Haraam) according to the Shari’ah.

The duty of the intelligence services is monitoring, following, and tracing people all of which involves spying which is Haram. Islam forbids a Muslim to spy on another Muslim or on the people of Dhimmah whether to benefit himself or others because the text in the Quran is general, Allah (SWT) says: “O you who Believe avoid much suspicion, indeed some suspicion is a sin. And spy not on one an other neither backbite one another.” [EMQ 49:12] In this Ayah Allah (SWT) forbids Muslims from spying on or even doubting other Muslims. And this prohibition is general and includes all kinds of spying on Muslims whether to benefit the one spying or any other person. It is collected in Bukhari and Muslim and narrated upon the authority of Abu Hurairah that the Messenger Muhammad (saw) said: “Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the worst of false tales. Do not look for others faults, do not spy on one another, do not practice najash (biding over one another), do not be jealous of one another, do not hate one another and do not desert or stop talking to one another. O Allah’s worshippers, be brothers”. This verse and hadith is clear evidence that all types of spying on Muslims is prohibited.Islam has therefore specified that spying on people and working for people who spy on others are both haram. It is reported by Abu Daoud and Imam Ahmad upon the authority of Al-Misswar Bin Makhrama that the Messenger Muhammad (saw) said: “Whoever earns and eats from exposing any secret of a Muslim, Allah will put fire in his mouth in Jahannam and whoever earns and clothes himself from exposing any secret of a Muslim Allah will cloth him with clothes of fire in Jahannam”.

In conclusion, it is prohibited and a SIN for a Muslim to spy on a Muslim or a non-Muslim citizen. However, despite the fact that the verses and the ahadith which forbid spying upon people (Muslims or non-Muslims) are general and unrestricted, there is an exception for Muslims to spy on non-Muslims who are Kafir Harbi (i.e. Kuffar at war with Muslims or who reject/have no treaties with the Islamic State). The evidence for this is that it is reported in Bukhari upon the authority of Ali Ibn Abi Taalib that the Messenger Muhammad (saw) sent Abdullah Ibn Jahsh with eight from the Muhajireen to an area called Nakhla allocated between Makkah and Al-Taa’if to spy for him upon Quraish, the enemy at that time. Finally, a Muslim is forbidden to spy whether as individual curiosity or as a job for Muslims or non-Muslims and it is prohibited for Muslims to work in intelligence services such as the CIA, FBI, NSA, Homeland Security,ISI, MI5, MI6 etc. or in the intelligence services of any countries of the world. This type of Muslim (who works as a spy on Muslims) is untrustworthy and Muslims should avoid him, expose him and not co-operate with him otherwise they will be sinful like him, Allah (SWT) says: “Co-operate in the good deeds and do not co-operate in bad deeds…” [ 5:2] We must invite people to Islam, command good, forbid evil and working to establish Islam in its Totality not only to fulfill our obligation but also that’s the only way out to be liberated from the present colonization and imperialism, through an intellectual and a political struggle.

* It is haraam to work with kufr governments and authorities to spy and/or intelligence gathering on fellow Muslims.
* It is haraam to work as a translator for kufr governments.

Posted by: Nick Danger at August 27, 2008 1:43 PM

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=626&Itemid=26

Posted by: Nick Danger at August 27, 2008 1:44 PM

This story and several of the posts above would tend to validate the hypothesis that "moderate" Muslims are actually more of a menace to Western societies than are the radicals. Think about it. If the vast majority of Muslims actually practiced their faith in its entirety (i.e., were radicals), then even most of the most obtuse among us in the West would want such people arrested, tried, convicted, jailed, deported, etc. There would develop the widespread belief that all of Islam is screwed up and evil. But precisely because most Muslims are lazy Muslims (thank you, Mr. Spencer) many in the West are lulled into thinking that Islam is OK and has only been hijacked by extremists and all that rubbish. So, I would actually damn the moderates even more than the radicals because of the deception element involved, regardless of whether a particular "moderate" Muslim has fooled himself into thinking that Islam is a great, wonderful religion or secretly suspects that it may very well not be.

Posted by: Wellington at August 27, 2008 2:03 PM

Well, I thought my little fable would stir some replies! Thank you, one and all. But please note my first words were "I'm imagining . . . " Lots of strange creatures can exist in the imagination: dragons, hobbits, talking lions, even moderate Moslems.

Posted by: ebonystone at August 27, 2008 7:58 PM

ebonystone: Just for the record, dragons and hobbits are far more likely to exist in my imagination than are "moderate Muslims" (because the latter take no imagining at all, just dreary, boring, inane pondering). In fact, I kinda' admire dragons and hobbits while I find nothing to admire about..... Well, you get the idea.

Posted by: Wellington at August 27, 2008 9:35 PM

Quote- It happened as "the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, CSIS and other agencies have lost credibility," one of about 20 Muslims who came for the meeting reportedly stood up to tell Ellis.-Unquote

Since when does ONE or 20 or 1 million muslim speak for all true Canadians? Give your heads a shake. I'm sick and tired of gullible folks buying into islamist propaganda and, judging by the many comments here, many are quick to bash their country calling sociopathic islamists heroes just because they are more successful at evil deeds then people with a conscience. Too many folks are developping a syndrome of blaming the victims rather than the criminals. This is a slippery slope flirting with the cowardly and dangerous mindset of "if you can't beat'em...join'em". What Intel has successfully determined by this exercize, is who is to be counted on and who can't!

Posted by: JC at August 28, 2008 7:14 AM

"Islamic Thinkers Society"...That one always makes me snicker.

What happened to the new term, "Mainstream Muslims", meant to replace Moderate Muslims? Didn't it catch on like wildfire? No? Hmm...

Posted by: Abscedere at August 28, 2008 9:11 AM

Now if Osama Bin Ladin were to ask the Muslim Canadians for help he would probably get better response than the foreign Canadian government got.

Posted by: American at August 28, 2008 10:23 AM

Now if a fellow Muslim leader like Osama Bin Ladin were to ask the Muslim Canadians for help he would probably get better response than the foreign Canadian government, the government of infidels.

Posted by: American at August 28, 2008 10:25 AM