Iraqi Parliament Condemns Magazine Over Cartoon Showing Female Suicide Bomber Depicted as the Statue of Liberty, an "Insult to Muslim Women"....

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jbW1_gSMyibzoeZAR4ayV9_mCzUwD93BU6A01

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at September 22, 2008 8:50 PM

Breaking:

Palestinian plows vehicle into group of Israeli soldiers in Jerusalem:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080922/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_attack

Posted by: darcy at September 22, 2008 8:53 PM

I think the authorities need to talk to Umm Fatima.

Posted by: duh_swami at September 22, 2008 9:20 PM

As long as the money blown (no pun intended) in Iraq is the tax-payer's money, as long as blood lost in Iraq is not his, dubya will stay the course.
Iraq war is one thing Repubs cannot point to Democrats as "they started it" or "they are worse" but I guess Repubs will think of something to blame on Democrats. Am just curious what it is.
In the mean time, Tom Tancredo's "Jihad Prevention Act" goes unnoticed.
And we thought America woke up after 9/11...

Posted by: Alert at September 22, 2008 9:26 PM

She didn't exactly tell her story. All we got were bits and pieces.
It seems like a clever propaganda piece - designed to make us all pity the person who blows himself up. This girl's story is seeming to present her as completely innocent - not sure what was being done to her or why. The perpetrator becomes a victim. Should we take her at her word? (Please pardon my cynicism.)

Posted by: PMK at September 22, 2008 9:30 PM

I have thought the same thing PMK, when we get partial stories of female suicide bombers. I think the jihadists are using them in more ways than one.

Posted by: charlie at September 22, 2008 9:35 PM

MEMRITV is in need of funds.

Posted by: silent_rage at September 22, 2008 9:35 PM

Iraqi Parliament Condemns Magazine Over Cartoon Showing Female Suicide Bomber Depicted as the Statue of Liberty, an "Insult to Muslim Women".
and what does it makes the MEN that talk them into blowing them selves up maybe they should be given a tnt or 60 percent nitro dynamite enema it just might wake there brains up

Posted by: ISLAMSNOTFORME at September 22, 2008 9:46 PM

A fifteen year old "wife" with a fifth grade education gets drugged with spiked juice and trusts her "husband's cousin" to strap a bomb to her and send her to market.

This is wrong in so many ways, I hardly know where to start ranting. It makes Aum Shinrikeo look tame by comparison.

Posted by: blangwort at September 22, 2008 10:01 PM

This is true moral bankruptcy.

Posted by: tanstaafl at September 22, 2008 10:34 PM

Female bomber cartoons...In Iraq...

BAGHDAD (AP) _ An Iraqi magazine cartoon depicting a female suicide bomber in a pose like the Statue of Liberty, arm raised with a lit bomb fuse instead of a torch in her hand, has angered lawmakers who voted to sue the publication for allegedly damaging the image of Muslim women.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-ml-iraq-bomber-cartoon,0,7357795.story

Posted by: duh_swami at September 22, 2008 10:43 PM

Good letter in jpost.com:

Bloody waste of time

Sir, - Iraqi parliamentarian Mithal al-Alusi's persecution by his fellow Iraqis is a good illustration of what a waste America's investment in that country has been.

Al-Alusi's unequivocal condemnation of terrorism and open admiration of Israel represent the progressive thinking we have sought in liberating Iraq. Nevertheless, he is only a one-man party, elected by about 1,400 voters out of 26 million. His statements and visits to Israel have gotten his two sons murdered, and now he is facing a ban on travel and possible criminal charges ("Iraqi MP calls for joint intel network with Israel and US," September 11).

Our mistake in promoting democracy lies in not understanding that it is more than just majority rule, that it also means individual freedom; and as long as Iraq is an Islamic state, real democracy will never happen there.

Posted by: jewdog at September 22, 2008 10:57 PM

1st. Banjo, Da na na na na na na na naaaaaa

2nd. Banjo, Da na na na na na na na naaaaaa

Posted by: Winged_Hussar at September 22, 2008 11:15 PM

I remember the words of an Egyptian pastor: "Islam is not a religion, Islam is a disease."

Posted by: Cyril Lucar at September 22, 2008 11:29 PM

She sure looks OLD for a 15 year-old. What, did she find that burqa in her grandma's closet?

What I don't understand, is why her husband didn't strap the bomb onto himself. In an instant he could have traded in the wife for 72 virgins in Sex Heaven. Hmmm. Makes ya wonder, doesn't it?

Posted by: champ at September 23, 2008 12:19 AM

From above: "Islam is not a religion, Islam is a disease.

No disagreement there in principal, but I would carry it a bit further and say, Islam is not a disease, it is a mistake.

You can cure a disease, but an uncorrected mistake sticks around forever.
I don't believe that Islam is curable, but I think it is correctable. And in the end, muslims must correct it, or filthy kufirs will do it for them.

The problem is, there is no one muslim, or group of muslims that can correct Islam, or desire to do so, so ultimately it is up to us evil kufrs to do it.

We have to correct the mistake that is Islam...

Allah may have created the Pen of Destiny, to write down everything that will happen before it happenes, but what Allah did not count on, was that some dirty kuffar would steal the eraser.

Yep...dar al-harb has the eraser to erase dar al-Islam. Now all we have to do is catch the slippery bugger and we can 'rub him out'.

What muslims really want from the west, is their eraser back...I'm not in favor of giving it to them...We have some mistakes to correct...

Posted by: duh_swami at September 23, 2008 12:27 AM

Our mistake in promoting democracy lies in not understanding that it is more than just majority rule, that it also means individual freedom; and as long as Iraq is an Islamic state, real democracy will never happen there.

Posted by: jewdog at September 22, 2008 10:57 PM

jewdog, "Our mistake"? Sorry but "we" did not "promote democracy" anywhere. Invading Iraq was Bush's idea from the start of his presidency (that he did no tbreath a word, until he got elected, is another matter). Why did Bush invade Iraq? Any thoughts? Besides, here is an interesting take: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45f1Riv_z1I

Posted by: Alert at September 23, 2008 12:59 AM

Our mistake in promoting democracy lies in not understanding that it is more than just majority rule, that it also means individual freedom; and as long as Iraq is an Islamic state, real democracy will never happen there.

Posted by: jewdog at September 22, 2008 10:57 PM

jewdog, "Our mistake"? Sorry but "we" did not "promote democracy" anywhere. Invading Iraq was Bush's idea from the start of his presidency (that he did no tbreath a word, until he got elected, is another matter). Why did Bush invade Iraq? Any thoughts? Besides, here is an interesting take: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45f1Riv_z1I

Posted by: Alert at September 23, 2008 12:59 AM

Sorry for the double post. Please delete the former. Thanks.

Posted by: Alert at September 23, 2008 1:16 AM

Jewdog's comments are correct and true. You can whine and debate and Bush and our going into Iraq until until the sun comes up. I voted for Bush and do not approve of alot of things he has done. Nonetheless, Jewdog's staement is quite true about democracy and Iraq. As long as it remains an islamic state, true democracy will not have a chance there. Al-Alusi is a rare bird in the islamic world and has paid a very heavy price for speaking out the way he has. islam is a nasty cult under the gise of being a religion and it MUST BE ERADICATED because trying to work with, make peace etc. has and never will work. I refuse to cede anything to islam, especailly our freedom.

Posted by: PatriotUSA at September 23, 2008 2:49 AM

to those with Bush derangement syndrom, let it go, its wasting your mind and our time. as much as l cant stand what clinton did not do, l dont go on every other posts condemming him.
with saddam gone, its a good thing for human kind, even muslims. they can try to bring in democracy, and l am sure they screw it up for years. but if you want tourmoil as Hugh has suggested over and over, you see having muslims working it out and fighting over it keeps them busy. soon the US forces will be able to leave iraq, its already happening. then what iraqi gov't is left behind can keep their islamists busy.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at September 23, 2008 6:39 AM

Watching the entire interview, it occurred to me that Ranya isn't telling the whole truth. She claims she didn't know what the belt was, or what it was for, then says she was told that it wouldn't blow up if she didn't play with it. So obviously she was aware it was a bomb belt.

She seems to have no emotions, like an automaton. "Flat affect", psychiatrists call it, defined as "A severe reduction in emotional expressiveness. People with depression and schizophrenia often show flat affect. A person with schizophrenia may not show the signs of normal emotion, perhaps may speak in a monotonous voice, have diminished facial expressions, and appear extremely apathetic."

Depressed? I'm sure she is.

Posted by: ImNoDhimmi at September 23, 2008 7:22 AM

Our mistake in promoting democracy lies in not understanding that it is more than just majority rule, that it also means individual freedom; and as long as Iraq is an Islamic state, real democracy will never happen there.

jewdog

We have "under educated" elitists running our country and it has been that way for a long time. I say "under educated" because they are all given a "cookie cutter" "easy" education from the "finest" universities, where certain more traditional concepts are carefully avoided. They get a purely PC education. As a result, they think that "democracy" is the natural order of things and all you have to do is "plant" it.

I believe that the natural order of things is that the strongest man gets as many wives as he can and he rules. He rules until another stronger man takes his place. Our enlightenment came through our Judeo-Christian heritage from God. Islamic people will never feel that enlightenment and therefore will never really fight to maintain democracy. Iraq, as a result will degenerate back to strong man rule.

Posted by: Spot on at September 23, 2008 8:17 AM

Islam is not a disease, it is a mistake.

-duh_swami

Far from it. Islam is a grab for power and that's all it ever was. There was never any mistake about it. Mohammed knew exactly what he was doing. Those around him saw the benefits of being on his side and chose accordingly.
Their descendants carry on. The drive in Islam for world dominion has never ceased.

Posted by: PMK at September 23, 2008 8:52 AM

This posting is for other Christians here, only.

This news story has shown us this girl's face and her name - now we can pray for her.

Our Lord coolly told his followers that he was giving them authority, among other things, to cast out demons, to heal the sick, and to raise the dead. (He also told them that if they did do these things, not to make a big deal of it, life with Him was what mattered).

Well: many of those deeply in bondage to Islam might be regarded as sick; as 'dead' (even if they're still walking around), and as oppressed/ possessed by what Christians call the demonic. Time for the Church not to give way to fear of the Nothing which is Islam, but instead, to resolutely wield the authority our Lord gave us. i(I think Fr Zakaria Botros, with his program on 'Life TV', is doing exactly that, by the way).

This young woman is exactly the same age as my eldest daughter, who is zipping off to a Christian youth camp tomorrow, where she will sing, and laugh, and pray, and play, and sing some more, and have fun.

If only Rania, by some miracle, could escape from Islam, and find peace, life, light and joy in a Christian community; even in a persecuted community she would experience more love than she seems to have been shown within her Muslim milieu.

Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants - when we open up Jihadwatch, and we see these kinds of stories - let's not forget to pray, even if it's just a 'God help her!' or 'God save her!'

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at September 23, 2008 9:07 AM

I am surprised that posters on this site even bother to dicuss democracy in a muslim country. jewdog is right. Democracy is more than majority rule. The palastinian majority elected Hamas. Do you think that the Gaza strip is democratic?

Posted by: Richard Garnache at September 23, 2008 9:13 AM

"Democracy is more than majority rule. The palastinian majority elected Hamas. Do you think that the Gaza strip is democratic?

Posted by: Richard Garnache "

democracy is mob rule....and yes, Gaza is democratic...

Posted by: pulsar182 at September 23, 2008 9:46 AM

Definitely not a mistake... more like a plague.

Posted by: Chris at September 23, 2008 9:57 AM

Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants - when we open up Jihadwatch, and we see these kinds of stories - let's not forget to pray, even if it's just a 'God help her!' or 'God save her!'

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy

No one can save people who don't want to be saved and before I can pray for her, I have to believe her - and I DON'T.

As for showing people love, we have done that and what has it gotten us but more killing and more threats from the very people we "rescued" from their plight in the land of Islam. Three thousand people died at the hands of nineteen Muslims who were welcomed into our country. They were never interested in escaping from Islam and I doubt Rania is, either. She might want a new life but that's a far cry from renouncing Islam.

dumbledoresarmy, I admire your faith and your love. Your heart is so much bigger than mine.

Posted by: PMK at September 23, 2008 10:10 AM

There are millions of Raynas in the Muslim world. This one is saved but there are millions that are ready to take her place if or when the opportunities permit them. Millions of Rayna likes will be blowing themselves up and killing both, innocent people and Muslim terrorists over the next fifty (50) to hundred years (100).

Posted by: American at September 23, 2008 10:28 AM

PMK...I think what you mean by 'mistake' is not what I was talking about..Islam is a mistake as an ideology...It always was and always will be until corrected. The Quran is full of mistakes, and it is at the heart of Islam. (some call them lies, or just plain wrong)
Submitters who believe in and act on these mistakes, are mistaken. An apostate corrects the mistake.
If the mistake were just about Mohammad, it would have died with him, but men (muslims) kept it alive.
Islam has a life of its own and has outlived its creators. It lives in a book full of mistakes. The mistake of Islam, the 'unnatural child' of Allah, continues until corrected...Keep your eraser handy, you may need it... :)

Posted by: duh_swami at September 23, 2008 10:52 AM

Are the people behind the bombers being pursued by the law? Do the bombers families celebrate the death of their children? Do they fear arrest?

With the interconnected families, where would arrests stop? Do they have like RICO Laws ---
Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act

Again I ask, why are these atrosities off the front page in a day - even when they happen in Seattle or SanFrancisco? -

While problems with terrorist prisoners are likely to be in the paper and our culture for 10 or 100 years. Our jailers were not inflicting pain that has any comparison to what has been done to our solders and to uncounted numbers of innocents in the world of the religion of peace.

Posted by: Hehadahat at September 23, 2008 11:42 AM

dumbledoresarmy and PMK- I agree with both of you. I also believe that every person has a free will. If this girl has been hypnotized by Islamics from birth, and is not able to be de-programmed, then she is gone. We must not lose any sleep over it, which is what I hear PMK saying. By praying for her we are also giving thanks that we are not in her same situation. Something that none of us would want our daughters to have to deal with. I'm sure that your differences are purely symantic.

We live in a very imperfect world and it will never be perfect. We must live with that. But we must do everything to defend ourselves from this terrible enemy, whatever it takes. In my mind, if we had to eliminate every one of them to do that, so be it.

Posted by: Spot on at September 23, 2008 11:50 AM

It is difficult to know what the truth is regarding this story. The only thing that is certain is the overall truth that occupation is correlated to suicide bombing, and not Islam. This is obvious when you realize that most suicide bombers are secular. In the case of Iraq, suicide bombing was unknown in that country before the US occupation. The occupation starts, and the suicide bombing begins. When the occupation ends, the suicide bombing will end.

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 11:55 AM

duh_swami,
I guess it comes down to how you define "mistake".

I see the person who makes a mistake as someone who was originally trying to get it right. Thus, a lie and a mistake are not the same.

To call Islam a mistake lets its practitioners off the hook. It wasn't just Mohammed. As you say, the mistake would have died with him but it didn't. Why didn't Islam end with his death? Because his followers saw it as a tool of power and expansion. First they used it to subdue nearby tribes and then they branched out.

There may indeed be many mistakes in the koran, particularly where Jesus and the Old Testament prophets are concerned but those are factual mistakes, mistakes of history.

What about Islamic doctrine?

Was Mohammed trying to create something else and he just got it wrong? THAT would make Islam a mistake.

Is the verse saying to kill for Allah a mistake or was it used to encourage the elimination of all who wouldn't accept Mohammed?
Was the saying that no other religion could exist in Mecca and Medina a mistake or was it a means of ensuring Islam's dominance?

Mohammed might have gotten some things wrong when he created the backstory for Islam but that doesn't mean Islam itself was a mistake. It was a tool of Arab imperialism, one that was gladly taken up by those around Mohammed and those that survived him and it has been passed down for fourteen centuries.

Posted by: PMK at September 23, 2008 12:08 PM

"Surely he mocks the mockers, but he gives grace to the humble." - Proverbs 3:34

Similarly.....

"God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." - James 4:6

If God opposes the proud, then so should we; if God mocks the mocker, then so should we. But if a man shows humility, then so should we. The problem I tend to encounter on JW is that there isn't a whole lot of humility floating around, know what I mean?

Above all, pray for our enemies. Praying is a quiet matter between me and God, but it does not mean remaining quiet to those who would otherwise be proud and mock the One True God.

Posted by: champ at September 23, 2008 12:57 PM

When the occupation ends, the suicide bombing will end.

Posted by: dave742

Suicide bombing is the least that a good Muslim can do to kill Jews infidels. Muslims were using suicide assassins in the 10th century.

I guess that Muslims were having an occupation problem in the 10th century. They must also have had a hell of a big occupation problem in the 7th century. As a matter of fact, Muslims are just one big problem after another. They are at one end of nearly every war. Could it be that they just don't know how to live? Could it be that Muslims are disfunctional?

Posted by: Spot on at September 23, 2008 1:09 PM

Islam constitutes child abuse.

Islam is a crime against humanity.

Islam destroys and/or criminalizes human nature.

Are some Muslims educated, intelligent, and compassionate? Yes, but how many more are mind-numbed drones, steeped in hate, spewing hate, unable to follow logical arguments or demonstrate any degree of self-determination.

Their point of reference is not ours. Their government documents were not prepared by thoughtful men reviewing 2,000+ years of human history to determine how best to form a new government for free people. Their schools do not expand a child’s mental faculties by fostering creativity, inquiry and accomplishment. Our communities seek to support and nurture each other. I

Given the different points of reference, what could these words mean? Truth, understanding, love, friendship, trust, expectation, honor, service, contribution, prosperity, invention, art, technology, charity. Or these words? Deceit, subjugation, hate, suspicion, shame, submission.

How many millions of souls over 1,400 years have been crushed by Islam?

Posted by: Civilus Defendus at September 23, 2008 1:28 PM

spot on:
"Muslims were using suicide assassins in the 10th century"

And Jews were using suicide attacks in the first century (in addition to the Irgun and Stern gang terrorism in the present century). It looks like Jews are also one big problem after another, except their problems go back further. Could it be that Jews are disfunctional?

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 1:54 PM

It looks like Jews are also one big problem after another, except their problems go back further. Could it be that Jews are disfunctional?

Posted by: dave742

I have a friend who is a Jew and would fight WWII all over again to put Israel somewhere else. You make about as much sense as my Jewish friend on this. But otherwise my friend is OK.

The issue of Israel's location was settled in WWII. You may not recall, but the Muslim nations were Hitlers close allies. Hitler lost the war and the Muslims lost along with Hitler. Part of the settlement of the allied nations, (the winners of WWII), was to allow Israel to exist. On that little piece of desert, the Jews have created a great country. Name one Muslim nation that has done likewise without bilking people out of money any way they can.

You may not believe this but Hitler tried to kill over 6 million Jews by herding them up and putting them into gas chambers. Really, believe it or not.

If you have an emotional dislike for Jews, that is your problem and I can't change your mind. But to say that Jews are the cause of the worlds problems is to say that they are wrong because they breath too much air. That was Hitlers opinion too.

Muslims, on the other hand, have never been "functional". They have always relied on war. When they are not fighting Jews and us infidels, they fight each other. It may sound strange to you, but Mohammad acted the very same way. Such a co-incidence.

Posted by: Spot on at September 23, 2008 3:14 PM

spot on:
Your first response to me was that Muslims were using suicide attacks since the 10th century. I mentioned that Jews were using the same tactic a thousand years before that. You did not respond. I assume you accept the point.

You also said that Muslims are "one big problem after another." I mentioned that Jews are also, and brought up Irgun and Stern gang terrorism. You did not respond.

Instead, you change the subject and start trying to justify creating a state for a people because they were mistreated by a group of people, but the created state is not carved from the people who mistreated them, but from a third party. This was done because the party that mistreated the Jews could not be punished, because they were white like us. Better to make the funny brown people pay, even if they had nothing to do with mistreating the Jews. I have learned very quickly here at JW that the technique is to ignore every point that is brought up, and instead bounce around and evade everything. I am not going to chase you around. If you would like to talk about suicide bombing, which is the subject of the thread, I will talk.

"They are at one end of nearly every war."
Iran has not started a war for a thousand years. How many has the US started in the last 50?

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 3:36 PM

Instead, you change the subject and start trying to justify creating a state for a people because they were mistreated by a group of people, but the created state is not carved from the people who mistreated them, but from a third party

Israel is in Israel. The "palestinians" are hold overs from the Ottoman Empire.
Israel has existed for close to 4,000 years. There has been a Jewish presence there for the entire time, the evidence is all over the land.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at September 23, 2008 4:19 PM

Dave742

I have never heard of a Jewish suidice bomber or a Jewish suicide assassin. Do you know where the word assassin came from? It came from a certain Muslim assassin.

Since you are defending Iran, I can see why you see no problem with Muslims.

As far as what happened in WWII, I have had this argument before with a Jewish friend as I told you. You are very fortunate that the USA has largely forgotten WWII, or your friend Iran would have been blown off the map by now. During WWII big mouthed countries like Iran that sided with Hitler were given a choice. Be anihilated or surrender. You obviously have no recollection of that.

By the way, I sincerely hope that either Israel or the USA bombs the hell out of Iran. If I had any say about it, that would already have been done.

Posted by: Spot on at September 23, 2008 4:32 PM

interestinconundrum:
Yeh, the Bible says so. Even Israeli archeologists don't argue that the Bible is fact anymore. Let's try to stick to reality. If not, then I have a "Holy Book" that says my people lived where you do now 8,000 years ago. You have 2 weeks to move out. I'm moving in.

Spot on:
"Do you know where the word assassin came from?"

Yes, I do. I read "Fear and Trembling: Terrorism in Three Religious Traditions" by Rapoport. He didn't describe any suicide terrorism by the Assassins, but I am taking your word for it.

"I have never heard of a Jewish suidice bomber"

I said "suicide attack," since the Jews obviously didn't have bombs in the first century. The idea behind a suicide attack, whether it uses a bomb or not, is that the attacker knows that he will die as a result of the attack.
The group I am speaking of is the Zealots. One example of a suicide attack by the Zealots is the attempted assassination of Herod. The book “The Zealots”, Martin Hengel details this event, and points out that it was a suicide attack:

“They were even joined by a blind man, who took part in order to encourage other by his readiness to suffer, presumably because, from the very beginning, they all anticipated that they would die.” –p.258

Hengel also says that the attack “…displays all the outstanding features of a typical example of martyrdom…”, including “…the theme of the defense of the law, which can call for the sacrifice of one’s life…”, along with “…an open confession…in which the law is once again the central feature. He also notes “…the absence of any fear of death…”, with the event ending with “…the cruel punishment of the conspirators”.

Josephus Flavius’ account of the Zealots after they were apprehended:

“They showed no repentance and did not deny the act. On the contrary, they openly displayed their daggers and freely confessed that the conspiracy was justified and had taken place because of their fear of God… [and for] the sake of communal customs…[for] which one is prepared to give up one’s life…”.

More quotes from Hengel:

“The ultimate cause of all three suicidal wars is in the end undoubtedly to be found in the Jewish religion, which was unique in the ancient world with its theocratic ideal and its especially pronounced eschatological expectation around the turn of the millennium.” p. xiv

“The power of fanatical Islamic fundamentalism that is so frightening for enlightened Europeans and Americans today may well serve as an example to enable us to understand the feelings that the Greeks and Romans experienced when confronted with the furor Iudaicus.” p. xiv

“Zeal called for a total surrender to God’s will and a passionate commitment, going as far as a readiness to offer one’s own life, to the cause of God’s honour…” p.224

“In every case of serious threat to Israel’s sacred blessings, either from within Israel or from the outside, the use of violence became a sacred duty..” p.225

“The teaching of the Zealots…was not a form of legal casuistry or metaphysical speculation, but a militant doctrine of action as the expression of zealous confession.” p.227

“[The Zealots] wanted to restore validity to the Torah in its original and unadulterated sense here and now at the end of time…” p.228

“The insistence of the ‘sole rule of God’ that was so closely associated with the revolt against Roman rule was for the Zealots the first step towards bringing about the Kingdom of God…” p.228

Josephus “…[reveals] quite clearly the very important place that martyrdom had for the Zealots…” p. 259 (see Ant. 18,23f)

“In Josephus’ account [an essential point was] their steadfastness was not based on some kind of political fanaticism. It was rather deeply religious in its origin and based on an absolute determination to keep to the ‘sole rule of God’, which for them formed the centre of law” p.261

In the mass suicide at Masada, Hengel recounts Eleazar’s speech which “…[declared] that death gives the soul eternal freedom and that the soul leaves the body and gains immortality.” p.264

“Like Zeal for the law – with which readiness to die as a martyr was very closely connected - the sacrifice of one’s own life for the law and the people was a sign of religious devotion, which concerned not only the Zealots, but all strictly believing Jews. The origins of this attitude can be traced back to the Maccabean period, since which time the chain of martyrs continued unbroken.” p. 265

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 4:57 PM

Spot on:
"Do you know where the word assassin came from?"

As I said, I did. I am assuming you knew where the word "Zealot" came from.

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 5:03 PM

'And Jews were using suicide attacks in the first century '
Posted by: dave742

Probably the first recorded suicide attack type event would have been Samson of the Bible (although attack may be a misnomer since he was a prisoner at the time)...he collapsed the pillars of the Phillistine temple upon himself while at the same time killing many Phillistines...

Samson had already been captured by the Philistines, they cut off his hair (supposedly the source of his great strength) tortured him and blinded him....

there ya go Dave, maybe the first suicide attacker may have been a Jew...

Back in those days the Philistines were warlike people who ran around killing, raping and torturing (much like the Muslims do today), and Sampson did indeed fight back and kill many of them before he was betrayed and captured...

Suicide attackers of the past include the Russians, The Dutch, and the Japanese...

But in the last 100 years or so the suicide attacks have been carried out primarily by Muslims. Muslims guided by divine guidance from the clerics who quoted from the Qur'an

"During the Crusades, the Knights Templar destroyed one of their own ships, killing 140 Christians in order to kill ten times as many Muslims. Another early example of suicide bombing occurred during the Belgian Revolution, when the Dutch Lieutenant Jan van Speijk detonated his own ship in the harbour of Antwerp to prevent being captured by the Belgians.

Modern suicide bombing as a political tool can be traced back to the assisination of Czar Alexander II of Russia in 1881. Alexander fell victim to a Nihilist plot. While driving on one of the central streets of St. Petersburg, near the Winter Palace, he was mortally wounded by the explosion of hand-made grenades and died a few hours afterwards. The Czar was killed by the Pole Ignacy Hryniewiecki (1856-1881), who died while intentionally exploding the bomb during the attack.

The ritual act of self-sacrifice during combat appeared in a large scale at the end of World War II with the Japanese kamikaze bombers.

The first modern suicide bombing occurred in Iran in 1980 when 13-year old Hossein Fahmideh detonated himself as he ran up to an Iraqi tank at a key point in a battle of the Iran-Iraq War. Lebanon, during its civil war, saw a modern suicide bombing: the Islamic Dawa Party's car bombing of the Iraqi embassy in Beirut, in December 1981. Hezbollah's bombing of the U.S. embassy in April 1983 and attack on United States Marine and French barracks in October 1983 brought suicide bombings international attention. Other parties to the civil war were quick to adopt the tactic, and by 1999 factions such as Hezbollah, the Amal Movement, the Ba'ath Party, and the Syrian Social Nationalist Party had carried out around 50 suicide bombings between them. (The latter of these groups sent the first female suicide bomber in 1986. Female combatants have existed throughout human history and in many different societies, so it is possible that females who engage in suicidal attacks are not new.) Hezbollah was the only one to attack overseas, bombing the Israeli embassy (and possibly the Argentine-Israeli Mutual Association building) in Buenos Aires; as its military and political power have grown, it has since abandoned the tactic.

Lebanon saw the first bombing, but it was the Tamil Tigers who perfected the tactic and inspired its use elsewhere. Their Black Tiger unit have committed between 76 and 168 (estimates vary) suicide bombings since 1987, using more than 240 attackers. Their victims included former Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi (assassinated by Thenmuli Rajaratnam), many prominent Lankan leaders (among them the late PM Ranasinghe Premadasa), Colombo's Central Bank, and even warships.

In Northern Ireland, in the early 1990s, as part of the Provisional IRA campaign 1969-1997, the IRA used the tactic it called the the "proxy bomb" -a sort of involuntary suicide bomb, where a victim was kidnapped and forced to drive a car bomb into its target. In one infamous operation in Derry in 1990, the PIRA chained a Catholic civilian to a car laden with explosives, held his family hostage and forced him to drive to a British Army checkpoint as a "human bomb" where the bomb exploded, killing himself and five soldiers. This practice was stopped due to the revulsion its caused among the Irish nationalist community.

Suicide bombing has, since 1993, been a particularly popular tactic amongst some Palestinian groups, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. Bombers affiliated with these groups often use so-called "suicide belts", explosive devices (often including shrapnel) designed to be strapped to the body under clothing. In order to maximize the loss of life, the bombers may seek out caf�s or city buses crowded with people at rush hour, or less commonly a military target (for example, soldiers waiting for transport at roadside). By seeking enclosed locations, a successful bomber usually kills a number of people."

Does this help , Dave?....

Posted by: pulsar182 at September 23, 2008 5:24 PM

"...occupation is the only correlation to suicide bombing. When the occupation ends the suicide bombing will end...only the secularists are suicide bombers..." dave742

The ONLY correlation to suicide bombing? Only the secularists are suicide bombers? Where are your facts and figures to back up your psychic vision?

Posted by: charlie at September 23, 2008 5:25 PM

pulsar182:
"Does this help , Dave?...."

Help what? What are you addressing? First of all, when you quote something, it is customary to cite what the source is, but maybe you've never written a real paper to know this. I don't know what you are getting at with your quote, but it is wrong. It says:

"The first modern suicide bombing occurred in Iran in 1980 when 13-year old Hossein Fahmideh detonated himself as he ran up to an Iraqi tank at a key point in a battle of the Iran-Iraq War."

Several suicide attacks occurred in the 1970’s, and all of those were committed by secular organizations (See Ricolfi, Luca “Palestinians, 1981-2003” in “Making Sense of Suicide Missions”, Diego Gambetta, editor, 2005, page 81). For example, on 12 April 1974 three members of the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command attacked a settlement in Kiryat Shmona and blew themselves up (See “Arab Guerillas Raid Israel Apartment House, Shoot 34 – 18 Die Before Three Attackers Blow Selves Up”, Los Angeles Times, 11 April 1974, page 2. Also “2 Arab Terrorists Massacre 18 in Raid on Israel Border Town”, Los Angeles Times, Harry Trimborn, 12 April 1974, Page A1. And “Arab Guerillas Kill 18 in Israeli Town, Then Die in Blast at Apartment House”, New York Times, 12 April 1974, page 65).
If the Vietnam war is considered "modern" time, then there are examples here as well. Vietnamese soldiers used the technique against the US in Vietnam (For example, see “Suicide Attack Described”. New York Times, 26 February 1969, page 7 and “Reds in Suicide Attack on US Infantry Camp”, Chicago Tribune, 19 April 1969, page S8).

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 7:50 PM

Charlie:
"The ONLY correlation to suicide bombing? Only the secularists are suicide bombers? Where are your facts and figures to back up your psychic vision?"

I did not say that "only...secularists are suicide bombers", I said that "most suicide bombers are secular." Understand the difference?

Robert Pape of the University of Chicago ran a study that analyzed every suicide bombing from 1980 to 2003. The study was conducted by the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism, funded in part by the Pentagon Defense Threat Reduction Agency. The intial results were published in a paper in the American Political Science Review, and the complete results in a book called “Dying to Win”. Pape studied 461 suicide attacks overall. He ascertained the religious or ideological affiliation of 384 of them:

“Of the 384 attackers for whom we have data, 166, or 43%, were religious, while 218, or 57%, were secular.”

57% = most

These results were mirrored by work published in a book called “Making Sense of Suicide Missions”, edited by Deigo Gambetta, who found that “contrary to a widespread belief, the majority of [suicide missions] have been carried out by secular rather than religious organizations.”
The most prolific suicide bombers are the LTTE. They are not Muslim.

Let’s look at suicide bombing in Lebanon. Pape’s database contains data on 41 attackers. From the book:
“…at least 30 of the 41 attackers do not fit the description of Islamic fundamentalism. 27 were communists or socialists with no commitment to religious extremism; three were Christians. Only 8 suicide attackers were affiliated with Islamic fundamentalism; the ideological affiliation of 3 cannot be identified.”

Of course, your first reaction is probably that Pape is a lying anti-Semite. Ariel Merari is head of the Center for Political Science at Tel Aviv University. He has a chapter in the book “Origins of Terrorism:Psychology, Ideologies, Theologies, States of Mind”, edited by Walter Reich and Walter Lacquer. He counts suicide bombing in Lebanon by incidents, and not individuals. Going by incidents, he finds that 7 out of 31 suicide bombings in Lebanon were committed by religious fundamentalists. The book is searchable on Amazon. The info is on page 204. Simply search “204”, and go to that page.

Pape found no correlation between Islam and suicide bombing. There is, however, a correlation between suicide bombing and occupation. This correlation is so strong its p value is less than .001, which is far beyonf the common bechmark of .05 used for social psychology, and more in line with that of medical studies. If you believe there is a correlation between smoking cigarrettes and cancer, then you can believe their is a correlation between suicide bombing and cancer.

Your response to this post will probably be to search for "Pape" within Jihad Watch. You will then find this:

http://jihadwatch.org/archives/019592.php

You will then have think you've found a great response. You haven't. The paper referred to in the JW post by Jonathan Fine is a complete joke. I hope I don't have to show you.

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 8:04 PM

Hey Dave,

I was in Vietnam in April 1969, those suicide attacks you mention ware not like the Typical Muslim version of one or two morons with strapped on explosives sneaking up on innocent civilians...

The Viet Cong and often the NVA regulars would attack in mass in a suicidal charge, it was called suicidal because they knew they were going to die..they faced massive counterfire...they had explosives strapped to their bodies, if they got close enough the the troops ,they would dentonate themselves in an effort for the the following troops to get closer...the usual result was that they failed and usually suffered very high casualties....this tactic was tried several timed , but always with the same result...they died and they failed....I know, I was there..

They attacked in a military manner, their attacks were well planned and were not cowardly like those individual Muslim suicidal bombers we see today....The VietCong and NVA were better fighters that the Muslims...

The other instances you mention about the Muslims committing suicide attacks occured and they may have occurred in the 40s , the 50s, the 60s and beyond up to today...

The point I was making was that in todays world 99& of all suicide bombings come from Muslims and are supported by the Islamic clergy....

I suspect you already know this...

Posted by: pulsar182 at September 23, 2008 8:15 PM

pulsar182:
Either your post went through before you read mine, or you are not very bright.

"99& of all suicide bombings come from Muslims"
How many LTTE members are Muslims?

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 8:57 PM

Hey Dave,

Good of you to mentions LTTE....it is true they use Terror tactics as the Muslims do..In fact, Muslims copy their tactics. While the majority of the LTTE are Hindu (radical Hindu that is)..they enjoy a good relationship with the Muslims: you forgot to mention some interesting facts:

Some of LTTE's attacks in Sri Lanka have been copied by other proscribed groups. Some examples are:

"The similarities between previous LTTE attacks against Sri Lanka Navy ships and the al-Qaeda attack on the USS Cole which killed 17 US Navy sailors.[67]
The anti-rebel website "South Asian Terrorism Portal" claimed that the LTTE provided forged passports to Ramzi Yousef, the man who was one of the planners of the first attack against the World Trade Center in New York in 1993.[68]
The anti-rebel website "South Asian Terrorism Portal" claimed that there are increasing intelligence reports that the LTTE was smuggling arms to various terrorist organizations, including islamic groups in Pakistan and their counterparts in the Philippines,[69] using their covert smuggling networks, and findings by the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies that they were building commercial links with al-Qaeda and other militants in Afghanistan.[70][71]
Falk Rovik, accused the LTTE stole Norwegian passports and sold them to the al-Qaeda organization (in Algeria) to earn money to fund their arms purchases. He further alleged that the Government of Norway has funded the LTTE and finances Terrorism. [72][73]
However, most of these allegations have been made by Sri Lankan government officials and their sympathizers (especially post 9/11), and are therefore subject to some skepticism.

According to an anti-rebel website, Glen Jenvey, a former employee of the government of Sri Lanka and a specialist on international terrorism claimed that al-Qaeda has copied most of its terror tactics from the LTTE [74] He highlighted the LTTE as the mastermind that sets the pattern for organizations like al-Qaeda to pursue. However, has established no causal link, no interaction between groups, just coincidences.
According to Asian Tribune, an anti-LTTE website, attacks on civilians in buses and trains in Sri Lanka were copied from the attack on public civilian transport during the July 2005 bombings in London."

But as far as the number of suicide bomber attacks goes, the Muslims win hands down...

Now,as you may already know...both the LTTE and the Muslims enjoy attacking innocent people..like those found in buses, trains, planes and children..

terror is the name of the game and the LTTE and the Muslism are brothers in arms and they do cooperate with each other...

but you knew that already , didn't you?...

Posted by: pulsar182 at September 23, 2008 9:42 PM

pulsar:
So you go from quoting Wikianswers:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_was_the_first_suicide_bomber

to wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_Tigers_of_Tamil_Eelam

The trouble is, your quotes don't make a bit of sense relative to what I am saying. I think you are insane.

Posted by: dave742 at September 23, 2008 10:14 PM

Dave,

Don't run from the truth....

Posted by: pulsar182 at September 23, 2008 10:30 PM

Ladies and gentlemen

no matter how many facts, from whatever source, we present to the Muslim Dementor, I predict that he will. not. accept. anything that even hints at the possibility that there might be the teeniest-tiniest thing *wrong* with Islam, considered as an ideology or program for the conduct of human life. No matter what evidence he is presented with, from whatever source, he will deny, deny, deny, even when that denial is so counter-factual that he makes himself (in our eyes) ridiculous.

The problem is, he begins from the assumption that Islam is absolutely perfect, that sharia is perfect, that Mohammed is perfect (no action of Mohammed may be questioned, but must be imitated).

So he *has* to insist that anything bad that happens in Muslim countries, or is done by Muslims, has got to be the fault of non-Muslims (hence, he blames suicide assassins on 'the occupation') or be the result of Muslims not being Muslim enough.

He has to blame anything, and everything, *except* Islam, and Mohammed, and Muslims imitating Mohammed. At all costs, he must protect the image of Islam, and Muslims. (Hence, also, his frantic and verbose attempts to distract, to employ tu quoque, to deflect attention to *anything* except what happens within the world of Islam).

Rule of thumb: keep right on looking at that upon which he does not want us to look. Keep looking at this girl, and all the other suicide assassins of Islam.

What 'dave' cannot understand, or does not want to know, is that to kafir (observing the teachings of Islam and the conduct of Ubul Kassim ha-Meshugga, alias 'Mohammed', from the 'outside', and then comparing those teachings with the condition and behaviour of the ummah throughout its 1300 year history, in every place to which it has spread, as recorded both by Muslims and by non-Muslims) Islam appears as a textbook case of that which Freud called 'Thanatos', the Death Wish, the Death Principle.

There is a peculiarly close 'fit' between the phenomenon of the suicide assassin, and the core ideology of Islam, with its obsessive annihilation of the individual, its suppression of any independent agency or thought, its insistence that even to think [F-K-R] is to become a kafir [K-F-R]. That 'fit' seems to be closer, in the case of Islam, than it is in the case of any other major world belief-system still current, even though some adherents of those other belief systems have, occasionally, employed the 'suicide assassin' tactic.

So it is not really surprising that, all over the world, both within the Islamosphere and outside it, we have seen Muslim suicide assassins carrying out mass murders, or attempting to; in far greater numbers than people from any other cultural group.

Similarly: female genital mutilation, though invented centuries or even millennia prior to the rise of Islam, and still practised by some African animist societies external to the Islamosphere, was absorbed long ago by some Islamic communities, and has been actively perpetuated within them, because there is a very strong 'fit' between that sadistic woman-destroying practice, and the way in which women are viewed by the core ideology of Islam. Today, most societies that practise FGM are Muslim.

Again: 'honor' murders of girls and women - murders of wives, daughters, sisters, cousins, nieces, by their husbands, fathers, brothers, cousins, uncles, who act as judge, jury and executioner - are often claimed to be un-islamic, yet occur far, far more frequently within the Islamosphere and within Mohammedan colonies in the kafir world, than in any other known human group. One study, in Britain, found that women married to Muslim husbands were *eight times* more likely to be murdered by their husband, than women with non-Muslim husbands.

The killing is not prescribed as such (unless the girl is deemed or even merely suspected to have transgressed sexually, perhaps in some utterly trivial way, or to have 'blasphemed' or 'apostasised'), but the misogyny that suffuses classical Islam enables and reinforces the practice.

Anyway, back to the posted article: here we have a Muslim man, and his Muslim female relatives, who have taken the man's teenage wife, also a Muslim, and 'volunteered' her to become a suicide assassin - to kill, most likely, not foreigners, but her own putative brothers and sisters within the Ummah! Human sacrifice by any other name.

I look at this girl and I see Eros being sacrificed to Thanatos. I see the Shekhinah, the Holy Wisdom, the Shakhti, the lifegiving feminine principle in its divine aspect, perverted and blasphemed with a thoroughness and malevolence that withers the mind.

And there have been many other Muslim girls just like this one, many of whom have succeeded in carrying out their task of slaying and being slain in the cause of 'allah' the war-god of the Arabs.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at September 24, 2008 12:21 AM

Well said dumbledor.

Thank you.

Posted by: Davegreybeard at September 24, 2008 1:46 AM

Pulsar182- To be called insane by a Hitler admiring Muslim bigot is a very nice compliment.

dumbledor- Extremely well said.

Posted by: Spot on at September 24, 2008 8:09 AM

"then you can believe their is a correlation between suicide bombing and cancer" -dave742

whoops. The correlation is between suicide bombing and occupation. No correlation exist between suicide bombing and cancer, as far as I know.

Posted by: dave742 at September 24, 2008 8:26 AM

one of the definitions of cancer:

2. any evil condition or thing that spreads destructively; blight.

suicide bombers are a blight on humanity...

Posted by: pulsar182 at September 24, 2008 10:10 AM