| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Dhimmi Watch | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog | Raymond Ibrahim | Robert Spencer |  |
|
|
|||||||||||
|
|
Defamation, as you can see here and here, is a favorite weapon of jihadists and their witting and unwitting allies. They prefer to smear anti-jihadists as "hatemongers" and "bigots" than actually to refute their assertions, which of course they cannot do in any case. This morning Jihad Watch reader James sent me this letter from the Morris Daily Herald, in which a Herald reader responds to a piece by a CAIR op by recommending that people read the writings of Mark Gabriel, Walid Shoebat, Brigitte Gabriel and me. Then another reader, a Mr. John Hubers, responded to the letter:
I am a Christian pastor who lived and worked in the Middle East for over ten years. I have no affiliation with CAIR. But I also take exception to what you write here, particularly with regard to the so-called experts you cite. [...]Robert Spencer is the worst. Claiming to be a scholar of Islam, he like his friend, Daniel Pipes, deliberately distorts legitimate scholarship to perpetuate the worst kind of anti-Muslim invective. The only reason he gets away with it is because most who read his hate-soaked material know nothing about credible scholarship of Islam.
These people represent the worst kind of hatred and bigotry. CAIR is right to be concerned.
I have long since grown resigned to being defamed in this fashion, but actually it is not something that I or anyone else should take lying down, because it is an attempt to discredit the entire resistance to the jihad and Islamic supremacism, and that has implications far larger than my good name. Also, I do not believe that the jihadists, their allies, and their dupes should be allowed to get away with these broadly defamatory statements that never provide any specifics about the alleged falsehoods in counterjihad presentations.
So I just submitted this comment to the Morris Daily Herald. We'll see if it shows up on their site:
Dear Mr. Hubers:You write:
Robert Spencer is the worst. Claiming to be a scholar of Islam, he like his friend, Daniel Pipes, deliberately distorts legitimate scholarship to perpetuate the worst kind of anti-Muslim invective. The only reason he gets away with it is because most who read his hate-soaked material know nothing about credible scholarship of Islam.Leaving aside the defamatory ("hate-soaked material") content of your words, you claim here that I "deliberately" distort "legitimate scholarship."
Prove it, please. I challenge you to produce from my books or articles, or from my writings at my website jihadwatch.org, even one false statement about Islam or its doctrine of jihad. Please also demonstrate from sources that a significant number of Muslims consider authoritative that the statement is indeed false.
I can be reached at director@jihadwatch.org. I look forward to hearing from you, and will publish your response at that site.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
This is not about me -- it is a much larger issue. Those who are informed about the jihad threat should always be ready to counter, with solid facts from authoritative Islamic sources, the smoothly deceptive pieces that CAIR and its ilk place in American newspapers on a more or less daily basis. People often ask me what they, as ordinary working citizens, can do to counter the jihad threat. Well, this is one thing you can do. The deceptions are blanketing the land and convincing people to be complacent about and dismissive of Islamic supremacism. As such they are an extraordinarily potent weapon in the hands of those who would destroy our society and freedoms. Those who are informed should take the time and trouble to fight back by writing in with the facts.
Posted by Robert at October 9, 2008 5:08 AM
Print this entry
| Email this entry
| Digg this
| del.icio.us
|
"Prove it, please..."
HA! from time to time some Muslims post comments trying to do just this...but all they are able to do is to throw smoke and mirrors...the usual Muslim language which is easily defanged by people who have actually read and studied the Qur'an and the Hadiths..
For centuries Muslims have been brainwashing their people...and now when their children are beginning to rebel when they are not strictly monitored illustrates the Muslim frustration over freedom of speech...the seeds of escape from Islam are sowed by freedom of speech...and the Muslims know it and fear it..It is why they are trying so hard to stifle all free speech...They simply do not want their children to hear the truth about Islam...not today, not tomorrow, not ever..that is the way it has always been for Islam.
Posted by: pulsar182![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at October 9, 2008 5:50 AM
They are teught to lie and decieve to promote islam so are we shocked they will do anything and say anything to get what they want while we play the game like naive choir boys guesswhos loseing.
Posted by: spcbat at October 9, 2008 6:15 AM
"I am a Christian pastor who lived and worked in the Middle East for over ten years. I have no affiliation with CAIR."
This guy is as Christian as a 13-dollar bill.
Problem is, his filth is taken at face value and nobody challenges him to prove his lies. Make the FBI go after him and force a retraction for defamation.
But look how a perfectly good tread on Andrew Bolt was derailed today: mostly Muslims under false flag, I suspect. But also many nutroots who just can't get it:
http://sheikyermami.com/2008/10/09/a-perfectly-good-tread-derailed/
at October 9, 2008 6:17 AM
Robert, you're the BEST. If only I had your debating skills and composure, I could be President!
Posted by: CGW at October 9, 2008 6:19 AM
Yes, Mr. John Hubers, please point out the deliberately distorted parts of Islamic scholarship you refer to, and where the credible scholarship differs, and who the credible scholarship is that you refer to.
What exactly has Mr. Spencer distorted? If you know it is distorted it should be very easy for you to show where and how. Hoping to hear from you soon.
Posted by: Dsinc at October 9, 2008 6:21 AM
i wounder what country mr huber was in the middle east to be so naive i bet it was the soal country in that area were you can follow your faith unimpeded the land of the jews
Posted by: ISLAMSNOTFORME at October 9, 2008 6:27 AM
I'm sure there are many who would agree with me when I tell you, Mr. Spencer, that you are a fearless seeker of the truth and a great American. And your detractors are like gnats and invariably distorters of the truth. Thank you yet again for being who you are.
Posted by: Wellington at October 9, 2008 6:49 AM
Does this Hubers guy really agree with the basic elements of Sharia? Does he believe in wife-beating, in child brides, that a woman's testimony is worth half a man's, in four witnesses to prove rape, in the concept of dhimmitude for unbelievers, in amputation of limbs for theft, death for blasphemy, etc? Of course not, and he doesn't want to know about all that because he is a politically correct monkey who is blind, deaf and very dumb.
Posted by: jewdog at October 9, 2008 6:52 AM
sheik (and anyone else who feels curious) - google is your friend. Punch in 'Rev John Hubers' and watch what pops up.
I don't know if it's the same man...but it looks very likely.
About the first thing that I snagged in the google trawl net was an article from IMRA:
http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=18587
The next item speaks for itself...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/haim-dov-beliak-and-john-hubers
The third item, on the website of 'churches for middle east peace' gives a 'John Hubers' as author of an article entitled "Christian Zionism and the Myth of America".
http://www.cmep.org/theology/2003May9.htm
Yup, I think it's our John Hubers.
A classic specimen of the Palestinianist Islamochristian - and without the excuse of having been raised in dhimmitude.
Just as, in the State Departments and diplomatic corps of not a few kafir nations, there are many who have 'gone native' and been seduced or suborned by the Muslims, it is a sad fact that not all western churchmen who do time in the Islamosphere are capable of the hard-headedness of, for example, a Samuel Zwemer.
There are not a few who, as Rev Hubers has clearly done, go native' to some extent and become shills for jihad and Arab supremacism. Very often they start out as actual or latent Judeophobes - or catch a fresh case of Judeophobia from the Muslims whose lying, tearful tales of supposed IDF and Zionist perfidy they swallow unquestioningly.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 9, 2008 7:10 AM
On further fossicking about among the items dredged up by google, re. Rev John Hubers, I discovered that he is associated with North American Friends of Sabeel.
http://www.fosna.org/conferences_and_trips/PhiladelphiaConferenceFlyer.htm
Scroll down through this conference flyer from April 25-26 2008, and you will find the following deliciously piquant list of speakers, to wit:
Dr. Marc Ellis, Director for Jewish Studies at Baylor University, will speak on “The Jewish Dream and the 1948 Reality.”
Dr. Elia Zureik, a Palestinian emeritus faculty member of Queens University, Kingston, Ontario, will describe “A Journey of 60 Years; the Story of Palestinian Refugees.”
Dr. Jeff Halper, Coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and a nominee for the 2006 Nobel Peace Prize, will address the topic, “Reframing the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: A View from the Ground.”
Retired Bishop Thomas Gumbleton of the Archdiocese of Detroit will address “The Radical Challenge of Non-Violence.”
The Rev. John Hubers, former Middle East Director for the Reformed Church in America will speak on the topic “Whose Homeland Is It? Confronting Christian Zionism”.
Dr. Yvonne Haddad, Professor of History of Islam and Christian-Muslim Relations at Georgetown University, on “Understanding Our Muslim Friends”
Need I say more? (Perhaps Mr Fitzgerald may like to weigh in on this one).
Does anyone want to bet that Rev Hubers has been stuffed full of treacly lies by the likes of Yvonne Haddad?
It is a very great pity that we do not appear to have a 'John Roy Carlson' who could have attended this little gathering by 'Sabeel' to do the requisite digging on the attendees.
at October 9, 2008 7:20 AM
People like Hubers have been around a long time.
They are the fruit of a propaganda assault that probably began in the 1930s at least, and hit its stride in the USA in the 1940s.
Here, just for fun, since I linked above the program for a Sabeel-sponsored conference which took place in April this year, and at which Rev John Hubers was one of the main speakers, I will provide, for purposes of comparison, the final pages of Carlson's 'From Cairo to Damascus' (1951), the appendix, entitled 'Arab-American Liaison Network'.
Note well, at the end, the text of the 'Interdenominational Discussion Panel'; then compare it with the tone of the contemporary conference flier.
***John Roy Carlson, Appendix to ‘From Cairo to Damascus’ (1951): the first precursor of Sabeel and its ilk. Pp. 471-474
‘Arab-American Liaison Network’
"Following his propaganda work in London, Yusif el Bandek arrived in this country {America} in the summer of 1949. In November of that year he called upon Merwin K. Hart – long an admirer of Franco’s system – carrying a letter of introduction from Lieutenant-General Sir Frederick Morgan, who in 1946 was removed as chief of UNRRA in Germany after making remarks about European refugees which were widely construed to be anti-Jewish.
"‘General Morgan has told me I could put entire confidence in Bandak’, Hart later explained in his National Economic Council Letter. “This was enough for me. Vice-Admiral Charles S. Freeman, U. S. N., retired, who has devoted much time to Mr Bandak, and I, quickly became satisfied that Bandak was all he professed to be.”
"Following this confession, Hart instituted a new series of anti-semitic attacks in his Letter, of which the following, in the December 15, 1949, issue, is typical:
"‘For because of their overbearing greed and their recent and present willingness to involve this country in every kind of evil, they [‘Zionist Jews’] are the number one enemy of American liberty and the Christian church. They are the outstanding cause of most of the dire troubles facing America today…
"‘A wealth of evidence can be adduced to show that the Zionists have Mr Truman’s administration in the hollow of their hand. The Socialist program is their program…When the American people awaken to what they have already done and what they seek to do, their wrath will be truly terrible.”
p. 472
"General Morgan had also told Hart that ‘Bandak had been sent by some 130 000 Christians of Bethlehem and vicinity [a wholly preposterous figure] to appeal to the British and to the Americans for aid’.
"Making a great point of the fact that Bandek was born a Christian, Hart planned to launch Bandek into Arab-American liaison work by introducing him to a number of his friends and supporters at a secretly arranged meeting. The projected gathering, however, was exposed by Walter Winchell and was never held.
"We next find Bandek’s name linked with Hart’s friend, Vice-Admiral Freeman, chairman of the Holy Land Christian Committee in New York, of which Bandek became general secretary. A group of prominent Americans were sold on the merits of the committee and on Mr Bandek as a worthy representative.
"The list included His Grace, Archbishop Michael of the Greek Orthodox Church, Miss Virginia Gildersleeve, already on the board of the Institute of Arab American Affairs, Dorothy Thompson the columnist, who told a Town Hall audience that she “had the honour of a visit from Mr Yusif el Bandak”;
"and the Reverend Charles T Bridgeman, former residentiary canon of St George’s Anglican Cathedral in Jerusalem, and, at the time of this writing, a rector of the Wall Street Trinity Church, New York.
"Bandek became the travelling emissary of the Holy Land Christian Committee, ostensibly to speak and collect funds for Arab refugees.
"Actually, rather than devote himself to helping Arab refugees, he gave a series of inflammatory lectures, tending to arouse latent anti-Semitic sympathies.
"With growing concern, the American Christian Palestine Committee in New York, composed of Christian laymen and clergymen opposed to Hart’s brand of bigotry and Bandek’s distortion of truth, followed the trail of Bandek’s blatant Arab propaganda from city to city.
"Here are some of the wild charges, as reported by the Reverend William Lindsay Young, vice-president of the National Conference of Christians and Jews, who interviewed Bandek in Los Angeles: All Zionists are Communists; Arabs had never started the war against the Jews but fought merely to defend themselves against “brutal Jewish aggression”; Communism is rampant in Israel; Christians have no religious freedom, and there are no Christian leaders in Israel; the Israelis killed three thousand British officers; Jews in America control ‘the press, the government, the motion pictures’.
"On September 3, 1950, Bandek spoke at the First Congregational Church in Los Angeles, of which the Reverend William F. Fifield – founder of Spiritual Mobilization, and a friend of Merwin K. Hart – is minister.
" Reverend Young, who was present, heard Bandek say that “the decision to partition Palestine was the result of the support to the Zionists by the Soviet Union and by American leaders…seeking not the interest of Christ, but votes”.
"Reverend Young reported: 'Gerald K. Smith sat in front of me and applauded practically everything Mr Bandak said…I heard no discussion of ways and means to help the unfortunate Christians in Bethlehem, the avowed purpose of Bandak’s organization. There was, however, a great deal said about the Jew'.
"Among Bandek’s friends were Arab-born journalists who, like himself, carried on as pro-Arab propagandists. One of these was Levon Keshishian, an Armenian whom I met in Jerusalem in April, 1948, and who wrote a note of introduction to Emil Ghoury, a leading henchman of the Grand Mufti, recommending me as “a friend journalist, he is OK”. Keshishian was imprisoned for the duration of the Arab-Israel war in a jail in Amman, Jordan.
"When I met him again in this country – where he is now serving as UN correspondent for the Arab News Agency – Keshishian told me that the charges had included espionage, but that he had later been released without trial. On his person had been found various letters and checks from Jews, Armenians, and others. Amman officials had refused to accept his explanation of these, Keshishian said. “They almost hanged me,” he complained.
"This man also writes regularly for Hairenik Weekly, the Boston publication of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, filling its columns with pro-Arab stories. He has also addressed meetings of this organization.
"Tragic indeed must be the state of those Americans who in their legitimate concern for the welfare of Arab refugees allow themselves to be duped by appeals of distortion, falsehood, and bigotry inspired by Bandek, Freeman, Hart, and their like.
"There is a just case for the homeless Arabs. But neither these refugees nor efforts at a conciliatory settlement of their plight can be aided by hate-mongering propaganda.
"Those well-intentioned men who have rallied about the Bandek-Freeman-Hart axis, are, unknown to themselves, sabotaging genuine efforts in behalf of needy Arabs.
>REPRODUCED:
INTERDENOMINATIONAL DISCUSSION PANEL
Friday October 24 2947
7.45 P.M
Church of St Paul and St Andrew
263 West 86th Street, at West End Avenue
‘What Should Be America’s Attitude Toward a Jewish State in Palestine?”
THE SPEAKERS WILL INCLUDE:
Dr Khalil Totah (1887-1955), a Quaker educator who served for 27 years in Palestine.
Canon Charles Bridgeman, of Trinity Church, who served for 20 years under the Episcopal Bishop of Jerusalem.
Hallam M. Richardson, Lay Leader of the Simpson Methodist Church, will introduce the speakers and serve as moderator during the Questioning and Program-suggestion period."
Carlson observes: 'Leaflet advertising the appearance of Dr Khalil Totah with the Rev. Mr Bridgeman, committee member of the Holy Land Christian Committee, with Hallam Richardson, Ahmed Hussein’s counsel, listed as the moderator.
'Speaking over the Town Meeting of the Air, August 15, 1947, Dr Totah declared: “The Mufti is a patriot, is a gentleman, and he was just as patriotic and had a right to his opinions as Jefferson and Franklin had to theirs when they were fighting for American liberty”.'
!!! {dumbledoresarmy remarks: Totah was talking about a man who at that stage had sided with the Nazis; who had visited Hitler in Germany; who had visited extermination camps; had made broadcasts inflaming the Arabs to kill Jews – all Jews; and who had fully intended to set up extermination camps inside Israel}
Further note by dda: Carlson identified Ahmed Hussein as a thoroughly nasty piece of work. Hussein was – imprisoned in 1942 for pro-Fascist sympathies; in America, ‘Hussein, as complaining witness, represented by Hallam Richardson, unsuccessfully sought to institute a prosecution for criminal libel against the Non-Sectarian Anti-Nazi League of New York”. Azzam Pasha praised Ahmed Hussein as “a great leader, one who speaks from the heart” (this is the Azzam Pasha who had sworn to kill every Jew in ‘Palestine’).'
Rev John Hubers is following, it seems, in the ignominious footsteps of those who fawned on Yusuf el-Bandek.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 9, 2008 7:35 AM
Robert has mentioned such defamation before - http://www.box.net/shared/yueymys080
Posted by: Rogster at October 9, 2008 7:42 AM
The number one tactic of the Islamist PR machine is to find Christians to hide behind so that they can continue to promote their agenda. Their PR machine is outstanding
Posted by: Axel Foley at October 9, 2008 7:47 AM
Dear Robert,
please carry on, do not let these bastards libel you. You are the best. Yes, that pastor is as Christian as a 13 $ bill, otherwise he would stand for his faith and defend it against the jihadists. Was he on drugs during his 10-year stay in the Middle East? Must have been, as he is not aware of any of the atrocities that jihadists commit every day. I wonder why he defends the "teachings" of a paedophile mass murderer.
Last night I was on a PC blog and quoted you and recommended people should go to your website to find out for themselves. Your website's name was made irrecognisable. These people share that pastor's stupid or is it evil mindset. Unfortunately there are a lot more like that.
May G'd bless and protect you and your work
Posted by: epistemology at October 9, 2008 7:48 AM
Robert,
You should put in here (or DW) a separate link wherein all the common lies CAIR and islamic apologists say are answered with reference to Islamic theology.
I know I know..There are the books, but onlien resources are easier to cite.
If anyone knows where in here those are, please send to:
somatikos@yahoo.com
at October 9, 2008 8:01 AM
Apologies for a small typo - when keyboarding the 'International Discussion Panel' document reproduced by Carlson, I seem to have typed '2947' rather than '1947'.
Ooops.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 9, 2008 8:11 AM
My conclusion: there is a fifth column in the United States.
Posted by: tanstaafl at October 9, 2008 8:11 AM
I am a Christian pastor who lived and worked in the Middle East for over ten years. I have no affiliation with CAIR.
Nice choice of the phrase "I am ...." As a "Christian pastor" you would know the implications of such a phrase. I doubt that you are the "I am ..." although you might think so.
But I also take exception to what you write here, particularly with regard to the so-called experts you cite. [...]
Because naturally, you have a different opinion.
Robert Spencer is the worst. Claiming to be a scholar of Islam, he like his friend, Daniel Pipes, deliberately distorts legitimate scholarship to perpetuate the worst kind of anti-Muslim invective. The only reason he gets away with it is because most who read his hate-soaked material know nothing about credible scholarship of Islam.
Okay, I'll disregard Spencer, Pipes, and the rest of their ilk when it comes to islamic scholarship.
That leaves the immams and the muftis who preach in the mosques. I will listen and hear what these people say.
These people represent the worst kind of hatred and bigotry. CAIR is right to be concerned
So far as I know, Spencer, Pipes, and the rest of their ilk have not beheaded anyone; have not called for the wholesale slaughter of anyone; and have not tried to silence anyone with whom they disagreed.
The rest of us have the right to be concerned about CAIR and VERY CONCERNED about fuzzy thinking "Christian pastors!"
at October 9, 2008 8:29 AM
Jhon Hubers is a supervisor of Reformed Church in America's Mission Programs in the Middle East and South Asia.?.. And a Christian Zionist? Huh!...
And he believes in:- " Politically, as we recognize that the theology shaped by this distorted view of scripture too easily morphs into a militaristic, anti-Palestinian, pro-expansionist ideology with negative consequences for all parties in the current conflict."
see here:-
http://www.christianzionism.org/AboutN.asp
As an Atheaist-Zionist let me say to you this:-
WITH FRIENDS LIKE YOU, ISRAEL DOES NOT NEED ENEMIES !!!
P.S.
"Robert Spencer is the worst."
So are:-
Mark Gabriel,
Walid Shoebat,
Brigitte Gabriel
Daniel Pipes
David Horowitz
*
*
( I could add another 100 names to the list,
but nothing will make me happier the to see
my neme on it, endorsed by YOU!).
at October 9, 2008 8:35 AM
John Hubers claims: "Robert Spencer is the worst. Claiming to be a scholar of Islam, he like his friend, Daniel Pipes, deliberately distorts legitimate scholarship to perpetuate the worst kind of anti-Muslim invective. The only reason he gets away with it is because most who read his hate-soaked material know nothing about credible scholarship of Islam."
1. Tell that to Walid Phares, who gave a written endorsement to Spencer's The Politically-Incorrect Guide to Islam. Phares wrote: "Robert Spencer, an expert on historical jihad, responds with a 'politically incorrect' but academically sound and challenging work. Spencer displays an enormous amount of well-researched material. He throws the ball back into the camp of the Arabist historians."
2. Jihadwatch is primarily a news site, quoting mostly mainstream news sources from around the world. The "hate" comes from the jihadists and the sharia supremacists in those news reports, not from Spencer.
3. I've read the Quran, major portions of the Hadith of Bukhari, Muslim, and others, and have read the Sira of Ibn Ishaq (Guillaume's translation). Spencer's presentation of Islam is consistent with what I've read from the primary sources, whereas Karen Armstrong, Carl Ernst, et al., present an unrealistic, sugar-coated view.
Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 9, 2008 8:38 AM
Robert, you should sue this guy for libel.
Sue the newspaper as well.
Make a big case out of it - a cause celebre.
I'm sure we would all contribute to a fighting fund.
This could be a turning point in your campaign.
at October 9, 2008 8:38 AM
With my local HK newspaper I have had almost 100% success in getting my letters printed, *except* when I take on the Jihad apologists. One such in the Herald Tribune was a Francesca Cook.... Like Robert, I'm not holding breath that they'll run it....
Text of my letter sent in 9 Oct:
============
Francesca Cook lists a litany of causes of terrorism, including “exclusion, injustice, alienation…. foreign policy decisions affecting the Islamic world” and the rest of the usual suspects (“The complexities of terror”, Letters, Oct 6). In short, she covers everything but the main one: Jihad ideology. In a May 2002 essay “Moderate Islam is a Prostration to the West” (in response to Saudi scholars’ suggestion for inter-faith dialogue), Osama bin Laden made clear the reason for Al Qaeda’s hostility to the West: “Does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually? Yes…. The matter is summed up for every person alive: either submit, or live under suzerainty of Islam, or die.” Elsewhere in the same essay: “In fact, Muslims are obligated to raid the lands of the infidels, to occupy them and to exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system.”(1) In other words, if the root cause of Islamic terrorism is foreign policy, it is the foreign policy of … Mr bin Laden.
Nor is poverty is the root cause of Islamic terror. Modern Islamists are young men from the middle or lower middle class who are highly motivated, upwardly mobile and well educated, often with science or engineering degrees (2). The attacks on 9/11 and in England in July 05 are examples. As Ayotollah Khomeini put it: “we did not create a revolution to lower the price of melon.”(3)
That the cause of Islamic terrorism may be ideology and not poverty, not “exclusion, injustice…” nor the rest of her trendy panoply may be discomforting to the likes of Ms Cook, but makes it no less true. And no less urgent to be recognised as the true motivator of those who wreak modern terror: the fanatic devotees of Islam.
================
I gave references:
(1) Raymond Ibrahim, The Al Qaeda Reader, (Doubleday, 2007), p51
(2): Research of sociologists such as Egyptian Saad Eddin Ibrahim and the economist Galal Amin, Palestinian journalist Arab Kahild Amaryeh and Algerian political leader Saad Saadi. Quoted in Ibn Warraq, Defending the West, (Promotheus 2007) p274
(3) Daniel Pipes, Militant Islam Reaches America (NY, Norton, 2002), p62
=============
So.... I agree with Robert that we must take them on, whenever we can. BUT the MSM are pretty much self-censoring already!! (that in itself, of course, being cause for even more alarm...)
Cheers and keep up the great work Robert, et al.!
[btw: I have to admit to some cribbing from Ibn Warraq; I hope he would forgive me, as it's all in the good cause....]
at October 9, 2008 8:43 AM
AbuAmnon -Rev John Hubers ISN'T a 'christian zionist' - anything but. He's no friend of Israel, no, not at all.
As I said above, he is a perfect specimen of a 'palestinianist Islamochristian' (to use terms coined by Bat Yeor). His view of christian zionists seems to be about the same as his view of people who, like Mr Spencer, dare to criticise Islam. Unprintable.
Mr Fitzgerald - who is wholeheartedly and very movingly philojudaic and pro-Israel, whilst being a self-declared atheist - would make Rev Hubers' head spin. Rev Hubers has no box into which to tidily fit someone like Our Hugh. We can leave Mr Spencer out of this one - I would pay good money to watch Mr Fitzgerald debate - and demolish - Rev Hubers.
Mr Fitzgerald would eat up Rev Hubers for breakfast and spit the little bones out afterwards, like Athena's owl after having disposed of a rat.
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 9, 2008 8:58 AM
I posted at a comment at the Morris Herald. Morris Illinois is in my neck of the woods. Anyway here is my comment:
I, like many others, have read Mr. Spencer's books and I also visit his website on a regular basis. I have read from many other authoritative sources on Islam as well. I find Mr. Spencer to be right on the money, and in total agreement with those scholars and sources.
If you believe Mr. Spencer is a "hate monger" I recommend his Blogging the Quran series that can be found on jihadwatch.org. He uses the Quran (and Hadith) to bolster what he says.
A few examples of what muslims believe:
Recently an Islamic cleric issued a fatwa against Mickey Mouse of all things. Read about it here: http://www.religiousintelligence.co.uk/news/?NewsID=2771
What about American born Islamist who calls for the death of kuffrs (non muslims)by crucifixion and bleeding to death for 3 days as reported by a Fox News story located here: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,244263,00.html
Mr. Spencer is not the hate monger. It is those who choose to willfully disparage him for speaking the truth that are the hate mongers. It is those who choose to remove our freedom of speech and freedom to speak out against Islamist who are the hate mongers, CAIR being first and foremost of these groups in America.
Mr. Spencer you are truly a great American and I. for one, appreciate what you (and Hugh and Raymond)do.
Posted by: the_antiMo at October 9, 2008 9:13 AM
...John Hubers is a supervisor of Reformed Church in America's Mission Programs in the Middle East and South Asia...
I wonder if this 'reformed' church has an office in beautiful downtown Gaza, or maybe Peshawar in Pakistan.
I read as much of his stuff, as provided by posters links, as I could stand...which is not a whole lot...Educated beyond his intelligence. I wonder if he knows Obama?
The first thing I notice about people like Hubers is that they are in love with themselves.
He is proof that religion produces few saints, but lots of dopes...
When the talking head says, 'Get off the phone you big dope', he was talking to Hubers...
Posted by: duh_swami at October 9, 2008 9:21 AM
Sue the newspaper as well.
Posted by: Nokingofmine at October 9, 2008 8:38 AM
Why sue the paper? The article was critical of CAIR's tactics, not sympathetic. Sue the paper because of a comment?
Mr. Spencer you are truly a great American and I. for one, appreciate what you (and Hugh and Raymond)do.
Posted by: the_antiMo at October 9, 2008 9:13 AM
What, no love for Marisol?
at October 9, 2008 9:27 AM
Robert Spencer plays an exceptional role in his noble effort to bring us awareness of Islamic teachings.
I have always made it a point to read as much on Islam as I could from the numerous books that are out there. I will even go to Barnes and Noble and look for comparative accuries from other writers to see if most are on the same page. A constant review of how various surahs, hadiths are interpreted helps me decide whose scholarship I can trust.
The disgusting FAIR peace from yesterday offered up ZERO scholarship as it simply went about bashing the 12 named for a various comments made but never once challenging them with any factual study of their own. This is why the left is so terribly morally bankrupt when it comes to understanding anything in depth.
Posted by: Mackie at October 9, 2008 9:43 AM
So I just submitted this comment to the Morris Daily Herald. We'll see if it shows up on their site: --RS
Oh yeah, it's there! Let's see if the "Christian pastor" troll takes up the challenge!
My guess is: Not on your life.
Posted by: darcy at October 9, 2008 10:05 AM
"Christian" pastor. This must be like Dhimmi Carter's particular brand of Christianity: great for getting Arab money, but doesn't leave you much confidence at the day of judgment.
Posted by: PRCalDude at October 9, 2008 10:18 AM
Why sue the paper?
Posted by: awake at October 9, 2008 9:27 AM
Because it published the libel against Robert Spencer.
at October 9, 2008 10:36 AM
Mr.Spencer confronting issues like this [to me] is part of the battle against Jihad, because individuals like this "Christian Pastor" [another Sutter??? rofl] are enablers. They deflect attention away from those Muslims that are putting their faith in the Quran into practice...
We call them Jihadists.
Posted by: revparadigm at October 9, 2008 10:38 AM
What, no love for Marisol?
Posted by: awake at October 9, 2008 9:27 AM
My bad. Marisol I humbly apologize for not mentioning your name and giving you proper credit where due. You are truly a great citizen of the world as well!!
at October 9, 2008 11:02 AM
Peace Nicks of the World Unite. They all want peace so of course they work together. Radical Islam loons want "peace", these deluded goons think they are working for the same thing. In their pitiful minds, it is the people saying hurtful things causing a few poor Jihadis to cause unregrettable isolated acts of non-peace because the pressure and attacks on them are so great a burden they can't bear it any longer and SNAP. clearly your fault completely. just give "peace a chance"
Posted by: AllahSnackbar at October 9, 2008 11:29 AM
Off topic but, for and outstanding summary of islamic terrorism, see the broadcast of David Jeremiah's 10/5/08 church service beginning at about 20 minutes into the hour show at
http://www.davidjeremiah.org/site/television.aspx
He puts to rest many of the falsities that islam is just like Christianity, we worship the same God, etc.
at October 9, 2008 11:36 AM
John Hubers is to be as respected as a 'Christian pastor' as Ward Churchill a 'professor' or 'scholar'.
Posted by: heroyalwhyness at October 9, 2008 11:41 AM
My own "scholarship of Islam" might be deficient but am I to assume that Ayatollah Khomeini, a man raised and schooled in Islam and an esteemed religious leader (in his own country, anyway), was presenting an inaccurate view of Islam when he established an Islamic Republic in Iran and set women's rights back at least a century and then called for death to America?
Robert, you're wonderful. Keep it up. You provide all of us an invaluable service. Thank you.
Posted by: PMK at October 9, 2008 12:02 PM
The entire question of whether these accusations of bigotry, racism, "hate soaked material", etc. - with their legitimization of CAIR's efforts (which include significant efforts to get people fired, advertisers to boycott, and of course lawsuits) could be justification for an actual libel suit against the newspaper and author of the letter, is worth further discussion. I'm not a lawyer but have researched libel and slander to some extent(as well as the whole question of the limits of "incitement" speech under current and attempted legislation). I think Hubers, using the CAIR playbook, is doing the following;
Accuse the other of hate, bigotry, anti-Muslim "invective" and deliberate distortion;
Assume that if these accusations are made against Robert and others (Pipes in this case) by a large number of organizations and individuals, they can't sue them all;
Assume that the costs of a libel suit against the Morris Daily Herald and the letter writer are beyond the budgets of the libeled (probably so, but not necesarily beyond the budgets of 3rd parties who may be interested);
Benefit from the overall disinformation to readers of the Morris Daily Herald, and the chill factor for anyone daring to criticize any aspect of Islam, shariah etc.;
Rinse and repeat.
This can cut both ways. A legitimate and well-founded libel suit against one of these attacks, chosen for the publication, the particular statement and the history of the attacker, can work to prevent further attacks. The grim reality is that serious and ubiquitous attempts may be made against anyone criticizing Islam in the 2009-2012 timeframe, and the use of libel lawsuits may be a tool to preserve free speech.
at October 9, 2008 12:09 PM
John Hubers,
When you attack someone, you had better actually refute something they say, otherwise it is you that, "represents the worst kind of hatred and bigotry." Just thought I'd let you know.
John q Public.
P.S. It would be easy to defeat you in debate over this, because you are quite simply .... in a word just plain old wrong. I really doubt you are even worthy Roberts time, as you would be just another useful idiot in a long line of defeated scoundrels. It would be fun to watch you get smashed though.
Look at who you are messing with.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019959.php
at October 9, 2008 12:12 PM
One addition to the above: An interesting case in which the Virginia AND SCOTUS refused to hear an appeal on a libel case that awarded damages based on a letter to the editor - in this case another small publication - see http://www.gannett.com/go/newswatch/2007/may/nw0510-2.htm
Since Hubers posted his comment at the Morris Daily Herald website (ie, it was NOT published as a letter to the editor) - he is probably NOT subject to lawsuit - from the link above this observation:
"By contrast, in the online world, federal law protects news organizations from liability for statements posted by outsiders on their Web sites. Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act says that "no provider or user of an interactive computer service" is to be treated as the publisher of information provided by someone else."
"While there are few decisions that address Section 230 in the context of news media Web sites, the cases interpreting the statute have made it clear that Section 230's protection extends to comments posted on Web sites. As a result, the federal statute would likely be held to protect a Web site from liability if a user posted a statement identical to the letter to the editor at issue in the Ziglar case."
"As more news Web sites encourage readers to contribute content -- whether those contributions amount to "citizen journalism" or merely sounding off -- legal challenges will no doubt be mounted. But Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act and the cases applying it provide broad immunity for such postings. Legal Watch will continue to keep abreast of these developments."
A most useful exercise would be to keep track of actual letters to the editor, therefore, as well as opeds and articles...typically libel (state law) has a 1 year statute of limitation, from date of publication.
Rather good materials on the whole issue at the EFF: http://w2.eff.org/bloggers/lg/faq-defamation.php
Posted by: Christine at October 9, 2008 12:21 PM
Keep up the great work, Robert.
Posted by: pastorius at October 9, 2008 12:42 PM
'I am a Christian pastor' obviously he has fulfilled the job title, just not the role.
Being Christian is more important then being pastor.
Posted by: alaskan1000 at October 9, 2008 12:44 PM
This "Christian pastor" could be a Muslim dissembler, similar to the CAIR trolls who post racist/genocidal/inciting-to-violence comments on JihadWatch to obtain an "incriminating" screenshot proving the "sinister" and "Islamophobic" nature of JihadWatch's officers and readers; or, if this pastor is indeed a genuine Christian pastor, then he is a complete phony who doesn't know the first thing about Christianity, not to mention Islam, similar to the insane liberal Jews who side with Muslims against conservative Jews and Christians.
at October 9, 2008 1:14 PM
"if this pastor is indeed a genuine Christian pastor, then he is a complete phony who doesn't know the first thing about Christianity"
You mean like the National Council of Churches?
The member bodies of the National Council of Churches encompass a wide spectrum of American Christianity — representing traditions as varied as Protestant, Orthodox, Evangelical, Anglican, and African-American, historic peace churches and ethnic-language immigrant churches.
They include more than 100,000 local congregations and 45 million persons in the United States.
Read this "ecumenic response" to Muslims:
The NCC Governing Board has approved an ecumenical response to the Muslim message, "A Common Word Between Us and You," declaring Christianity and Islam "are compelled to find common ground." The Muslim message is a letter from 138 Muslim scholars worldwide (and subsequently signed by some 100 others) that seeks dialogue with Christians based on love of God and love of neighbor, two commandments central to both Islam and Christianity, as well as to Judaism. It stresses that peace in the world is integrally related to peaceful relations between Islam and Christianity. The ecumenical response noted that at the heart of "A Common Word," there is "a call for Christians to consider that Muslims are with us, and that this togetherness bears upon the state of the world. The importance of this call should not be underestimated ... We pray, not only for the absence of enmity, but for the nurturing of friendship between our two communities." Dr. Diana Eck, professor of comparative religion and Indian studies at Harvard University and chair of the NCC's Interfaith Relations Commission, described "A Common Word" as a "historic document, a kind of a Muslim ecumenical letter, a bold and timely invitation." "The letter of the Muslim scholars to church leaders worldwide offers an unprecedented opportunity for collaboration between Muslims and Christians in the search for peace in the world," said Dr. Antonios Kireopoulos, NCC Senior Program Director for Interfaith Relations. "In the United States, such an opportunity means the difference between friction and goodwill, between suspicion and friendship, in our communities."
http://www.ncccusa.org/news/ecumenicalresponse.html
Dr. Sayyid M. Syeed, president of the Islamic Society of North America, came to the Governing Board meeting to welcome the response.
"We need you to be seriously involved," Syeed said. "When we hear the news in the Muslim world, about suicide bombers and the like, we are more pained than you because this is not what Islam represents. We must create models here that we can represent to the rest of the world. American Muslims are what Muslims can be in a democratic, pluralistic society. We need to take those steps together."
http://www.ncccusa.org/news/081008commonwordresponse.html
July 24, 2008
NCC News
The National Council of Churches will be part of the dialogue July 28-31 when more than 150 Christian and Muslim leaders gather at Yale University to promote understanding between the two faiths.
"Christians and Muslims have gone through periods of good relations and bad relations over the centuries," said Dr. Antonios Kireopoulos, the NCC's Senior Program Director for Faith and Order and Interfaith Relations. "Recent history has reinforced ill will between the two communities, so this interfaith initiative can make progress toward mutual understanding."
In addition to Kireopoulos, leaders expected at the conference include Prince Ghazi bin Muhammad of Jordan; former Prime Minister Sadiq al-Mahdi of Sudan; top Evangelical leaders Leith Anderson and Geoff Tunnicliffe; prominent Ayatollahs from Iran; Sheikh Tayseer Tamimi of Palestine, Grand Muftis of several Middle Eastern countries; and John Esposito of Georgetown University. Senator John Kerry as well as other senior U.S. government officials also are expected to attend.
http://www.globalministries.org/news/mee/nccs-kireopoulos.html
***********
The problem is much bigger than Hubers. Hubers has more friends & supporters (useful idiots) than we have.
at October 9, 2008 2:16 PM
I notice not mentioned is the attacks and threats for christians to leave palistinian areas such as bethelaham yes these guys are true christian protecters.
Posted by: spcbat at October 9, 2008 3:32 PM
"Robert Spencer is the worst."
Well, he's got a point, Robert.
You ARE the worst Dhimmi ever.
Oh well, you're in good company here.
Love y'all!
Lori ;)
Posted by: Lori B. at October 9, 2008 4:03 PM
(Oh, and just for clarification: By the term "worst Dhimmi ever," I mean that he's a terrible Dhimmi who never does what the Muslim overlords command. Just so's we're clear on that.)
LOL
Posted by: Lori B. at October 9, 2008 4:05 PM
>>
Robert, you should sue this guy for libel.
Sue the newspaper as well.
Make a big case out of it - a cause celebre.
I'm sure we would all contribute to a fighting fund.
This could be a turning point in your campaign.
Posted by: Nokingofmine
>>>
I agree,, time to FIGHT BACK!! I think we need some lawyers, to SUE islam. I think we need to organize,, into some HUGE powerful group,, raise cash,, and take that whole "religion" to court.
solsticewitch13
WAKE UP INFIDELS!!!
Time to FIGHT BACK!
at October 9, 2008 4:06 PM
LOLOL,, was at TROP and he has a old post from Islam Watch up,, thought I'd post it up here,, for folks, who never saw this. Wow, it even makes more sense today, than in 2006,,
too funny,,
>>>
Islamic Operating System ISLAM.EXE, Alpha Version 0.7.2
by Shabnam Ali
16 Dec, 2006
>>>
http://www.islam-watch.org/Shabnam/IslamicSoftware.htm
Posted by: solsticewitch13 at October 9, 2008 4:18 PM
Some of you are being unkind to this Christian pastor. Robert Spencer is just in asking for the pastor to provide an explanation of his harsh comments.
I am confident there are a number of Christian pastors who are supporters of Robert Spencer and his mission. Far from being hatred, Robert is merely telling the ugly truth about Islam and its traditions. This is not hatred, but truth telling. Perhaps, from a Christian basis, a claim might be made that Robert is not "telling the truth in love" but then I am not sure that is the task for a web site like this. Telling the truth is enough.
Pastors make mistakes and can be in denial, like the aforementioned person clearly is. In my discussions with Christian pastors about these issues they often ignorantly assume that opposing Islam is like opposing Judaism. They misread one group for the other and go into defensive mode for the minority stranger. When they see Muslims, they read Jew and believe honestly that they must defend Muslims. I use to think this way until I did some research and found out how ugly a religion Islam is. I now understand it to be a toxic religion.
Pastors can be wrong about these issues, and Robert has responded appropriately. Some of you who posted attacks need to take your words back.
Peace.
Posted by: James Martel at October 9, 2008 5:05 PM
Sorry James the pastor is just a hit and run scumbag. And I'm willing to bet a cowardly scumbag, also.
Posted by: KrazyKafir at October 9, 2008 5:54 PM
Some of you who posted attacks need to take your words back.
Peace.
Posted by: James Martel at October 9, 2008 5:05 PM
From what I've read on the Comments (Morris Daily Herald) NO ONE supporting RS "needs to take their words back."
Can you stop with the "Peace." You sound like Mohammedan Abdullah Mikhail.
Posted by: darcy at October 9, 2008 5:58 PM
"Some of you are being unkind to this Christian pastor." --James Martel
What, are you joking? Did you read what he said about RS? Also, I doubt this idiot is a "Christian pastor," anyway.
Whose side are you on?
Oh, BTW, the "Christian pastor" hasn't shown himself again. No surprise, the coward/dhimmi.
Posted by: darcy at October 9, 2008 6:01 PM
I was going to post on the Morris Daily Herald too, but I could see that most of Roberts "demonic minions" have been working that guy over pretty good. LOL! anyways all of you should get a "demonic minion merit badge" that posted over there! All around great stuff.
Posted by: ethoman at October 9, 2008 6:44 PM
Thanks, ethoman.
But, you should go ahead and post a comment, too.
The more the merrier. And powerful.
Posted by: darcy at October 9, 2008 6:53 PM
You are a Christian pastor, sir?
Well, I am a Hellfire Microelectronics Assembly operator and tester. This, and a dollar will get me a 20-oz Mountain Dew, in the break room.
You, sir, could not get into the break room.
This dork is asserting that he's a Christian pastor, in the same tone Naseem used to use when she insisted that she was a Muslim. And, Surprise--! Mr. Pastor is the pastor of some splinter church that broke away from some other church.
Anyone who attends or knows someone, other than the illustrious Pastor, who attends The Reformed Church in America, please raise your hand.
Anyone?
at October 9, 2008 7:01 PM
"Mr. Pastor is the pastor of some splinter church that broke away from some other church."
Read my previous post, you'll see a major mainstream organization of many different mainstream Christian churches, through its manifesto and its activities relating to Muslim "outreach", thinks pretty much the same as pastor Hubers. He's no flake. He's normal. Unfortunately.
Posted by: DenverRodeo at October 9, 2008 7:07 PM
"Some of you are being unkind to this Christian pastor. Robert Spencer is just in asking for the pastor to provide an explanation of his harsh comments."
Pardon me but this wolf in sheep's clothing is more concerned about saving face for Islam and throwing out hollow accusations against those trying to expose the evil of what the basis for Islam, The Quran, actually teaches. He spews anti-Israel rhetoric while coddling those who deny the holocaust & desires to see a new one concerning Jews.
Harsh???
This fraud needs to fall off the face of the earth.
Posted by: revparadigm at October 9, 2008 7:43 PM
ah, John Hubers
http://www.christianzionism.org/
his friend and mentor
vile Jewhaters, both of them
Posted by: ploome at October 9, 2008 7:52 PM
I would like to applaud one of the long time posters on this site.
Dumbledores army stand up and take a bow, great research, nice links, and very informative as to where this so called preacher is coming from.
Posted by: stickman at October 9, 2008 8:12 PM
It is a shame to me that people that appropriate the title "reverend" often have no reverence for Truth.
Posted by: stickman at October 9, 2008 8:13 PM
I had been debating with John Hubers for many years both on his site at christianzionism.org which is really antizionism.
He considers himself an Evangelical and he cannot go past his theological view that 'all' Christian Zionists are premillenialists and are awaiting for the rapture.
He is associated with RCA denomination and if you take a look at this site http://www.rca.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=2629&srcid=1542
you can see his name on it.
One thing you can do is to write and call RCA denomination about this uncalled for defamation Mr Spencer.
Mr. Spencer, you can email me anytime if you need more information...I have quite a bit...
Posted by: psaturn at October 9, 2008 9:19 PM
Posted by: stickman at October 9, 2008 8:12 PM
Agreed, 100%.
Posted by: awake at October 9, 2008 11:20 PM
From post above: I would like to applaud one of the long time posters on this site.
Ddoresarmy stand up and take a bow,
I second that.
Good work is good work, and credit is due where credit is due. Dumbledores army
consistently provides good information, and things someone can actually 'do'...Thanks for your efforts...
at October 9, 2008 11:21 PM
I think high praise should be given to dumbledoresarmy for her (?) painstaking and edifying research and posts in this thread regarding the odious John Hubers. I, for one, am grateful.
Posted by: commonsense at October 9, 2008 11:56 PM
Thank you for your praise, duh swami, commonsense, stickman, awake.
Nearly all the credit is due, however, to the facilities provided by - as Hugh Fitzgerald calls it - the 'McGelligot's Pool' of the internet. Sleuthing that might otherwise have entailed, for example, a trek to a major library to consult such tomes as 'Who's Who in America', was accomplished in about ten seconds flat.
commonsense, yes, I'm female. Middle-aged mum of four, in fact. Possibly I should have taken 'Luna lovegood' as my nic rather than 'dumbledoresarmy' (which is intended to express '[member of] dumbledore's army', for analogical reasons which ought to be self-explanatory).
It appears, from what psaturn said above, that s/he has been duelling with the Rev Hubers for some time. In that case rather more praise is due to psaturn than to me. (psaturn - are you new here, or have you been lurking for awhile? I don't recall seeing your nic before - if you're new, welcome!).
All I did was find out who Hubers was. psaturn has been arguing with him, and is in a position to tell Mr Spencer where to beard him in his lair.
And psaturn's advice - to challenge rca (reformed church of america) re. the conduct of their reverend - is good. They may find it a little embarrassing if they are barraged with brief, polite, intelligent emails defending Mr Spencer against Rev Hubers' 'hate-soaked material' charge.
I followed psaturn's link and had a quick look at the website to which it leads. All warm and fuzzy...
Christian witness to Muslims, especially in the kafir lands, is a good idea. But it cannot and must not be done on a basis of suicidal naivety - and that, I fear, is what Hubers may be reinforcing in those who visit his website (he appears to be running it) and take his counsel.
Samuel Zwemer, the great late 19th C/ early 20thC missionary to the Muslim world, would be a much more reliable model for American Christians to follow. He had no illusions whatever about the lethal aspects of Islam! - one of his major works is called "The Law of Apostasy in Islam".
And I wonder what Hubers would make of Fr Zakaria Botros?
Christians in the USSR evangelised Stalinists (see Richard Wurmbrand's books for a sample of what that entailed); Corrie ten Boom bore witness to Nazis. Chinese Christians courageously evangelised Maoists. But they did it in full awareness of the lethal anti-human and inhumane character of the belief systems inhabiting the heads of the persons with whom they were dealing!
Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 10, 2008 4:28 AM
I am an expert on Islam. I have read the Koran, Sirat and the Hadith. I read them in Arabic and read them all over a number of years during my toilette breaks. In short, these books stunk a lot more than my feces did.
Posted by: American at October 10, 2008 9:30 AM
========================================
A Christian is, by default, a witness for Jesus Christ.
The defining characteristic of this witness is love -- love for God, love for neighbor.
Neighborly love grows out of understanding which is the purpose of this site - to provide resources to help engender a more empathetic understanding of our Muslim neighbors. It is designed, in particular, to help cut through the stereotypes and distortions which mark too much discourse on Islam in America today. Our aim is to help all who visit this site to get to know our Muslim neighbors as neighbors and friends. We welcome all who share this purpose.
John Hubers
see here:- http://www.rca.org/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=2629&srcid=1542
========================================
Well, now I know who you are Mr. John Hubers !!...
at October 10, 2008 1:44 PM
Comments are turned off and archived for this entry.
(Note: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.)