Mohammed remained calm with an expressionless face, never uttering a word, said the eyewitness.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4

Posted by: Lorgan at October 27, 2008 8:28 PM

Brother Mansuur has now joined the true martyrs of the One True Christian and Jewish God. On Judgement Day his killers shall wail at their folly in killing one of God's people.

May the Holy Trinity have mercy on these Muslims murderers.

Posted by: James Martel at October 27, 2008 8:29 PM

"...taught that the penalty for apostasy from Islam was death, in accord with Muhammad's words, "If anyone changes his religion, kill him."

Only an evil false prophet would suggest murdering someone over such a decision.

No compulsion in Islam, eh?

Posted by: champ at October 27, 2008 8:33 PM

Lorgan,

Excellent! Precisely what the zombies do not understand, nor could ever comprehend.

Posted by: boneshack at October 27, 2008 8:35 PM

"Will Sanaa Nadim be outraged? What do you think?"

Of course she'll be outraged - Sanaa will be outraged at you, Robert, for posting this story and for repeating Muhammad's own words.

Posted by: champ at October 27, 2008 8:54 PM

I used to read this and wonder if the anti-Christ was going to bring back the guillotine for beheading the saints but now I know better.

Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at October 27, 2008 9:03 PM

Men like this young man are the saints, confessors and martyrs of the Church in Somalia. (Yeshua/ Jesus said that 'wherever two or three are gathered together, there am I in the midst of them' - so if there are even 2 or 3 Christians in Somalia, and it certainly seems that there are such , then the Somali Church exists).

I address my fellow Christians: share this story with your clergy and fellow-parishioners.

Keep rubbing their noses in the sheer ugliness of what Islam does to non-Muslims wherever Islam has the power to get away with it. The more stories like this they hear, backed up by the specific textual evidence that the core Islamic texts explicitly prescribe this kind of thing, the less likely they will be to be bamboozled by Muslim 'interfaith dialogue' snake-oil salesmen.

Refer them to Samuel Zwemer's classic historical study, "The Law of Apostasy in Islam", which is very conveniently available online in its entirety.

This Friday is the Vigil of All Hallows (All Hallows' Eve, Hallowe'en). Saturday is the Feast of All Saints. Sunday is the Feast of All Souls; it is also the Worldwide Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church.

Christians - this Sunday, whether your church is formally observing that Day of Prayer or not, do not forget to pray not only for your fellow Christians but for all non-Muslims who are being oppressed, tormented and killed within the Islamosphere. Pray that group apostasies will start happening - one person here and one there can be 'picked off' as Mansuur has been, but what if whole gangs of brothers and cousins converted out at once and were thus able to stand together and defend each other? (Especially since Christianity enables people to trust each other, and cooperate).

Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans might like, on All Hallows and again on All Souls, to light candles in memory of Mansuur Mohammed (who has brought,by his faith and courage unto death, real meaning to his second name 'praised one')).

Prior to All Souls Day, many liturgical churches ask parishioners to submit names for a list of the blessed dead that will be read out aloud during the All Souls liturgy. If your church has that practice: put Mansuur Mohammed on the list, and be sure to add a *brief* note explaining how and why he died. That way, you educate as well as edify. I did that last year at our church: I put down the name of Rami Ayyad, Arab Christian martyr of Gaza, murdered by jihadists for the 'crime' of breaking the dhimma by publicly selling Christian books. So, in a little Aussie suburban church, the name of an Arab Christian martyr was remembered - and the reason for his martyrdom.

(Besides Mansuur's, one might also give one's church, for example, the names of Rana of Jordan, executed by her Muslim father for her decision to follow her young husband out of Islam into the Christian faith; and of young 'Rania' of Saudi Arabia, murdered by her father when he discovered she had become a Christian, and of Bashar al-Hazim, Assyrian Christian of Mosul in Mesopotamia, stopped in the street by jihadists and killed out of hand, simply and solely because he was a Christian.)

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 27, 2008 9:03 PM

Infidels unite! These barbarians and their savage god allah. How sick! Islam deserves no respect at all. Mohammedans have slaughtered millions upon millions of Hindus, Jews, Christians and other non Muslims and destroyed beautiful Churches, temples and synagogues all over the world. They continue to lie about how Islam is peaceful and blame the violence perpetrated by Musselmans on the kuffars. They lie about and try to fool infidels by taking credit on works of human creativity as their own trying to portray that Islam is beautiful as in the case of art from India of Hindu themes etc. The sad part is that people fall for this.

Posted by: savsiv at October 27, 2008 9:24 PM

You know, it occurs to me to wonder whether the video of this man's martyrdom - especially, the example of his silent steadfast courage - may not have exactly the opposite effect to that which the jihadists intend.

I will pray that the jihadists' little propaganda effort backfires, big time, and that wherever this ghastly snuff video goes there will be a flood of conversions...to Christianity.

Something to think about. According to the article, Mansuur left Islam three years ago. So: even from the point of view of an atheist, this means that this human being, for three years, has lived as a 'normal' human being, practising the Golden Rule, attempting to follow a path of true compassion and charity. Three years of happiness and productivity and creativity, free from obsessive ritual, free to think clearly.

Having tasted that, he clearly preferred death rather than a return into the deadly darkness and mental slavery of Islam. Or perhaps - and this is transposing the Somali passion for 'honor' into a new and transcendent key - he simply could not bear to bring shame upon his new Lord by denying Him.

I am reminded of the words of a song 'Will You Love Me?' that we sang in our church this Sunday.

[note that throughout the hymn, the speaker is Yeshua]:

"Will you give me your life for ever?/ Will you carry my cross every day?/ Will you walk in the light of my presence/ Will you follow the truth of my ways?

REFRAIN - 'will you love me as I have loved you?/ Will you live with me the darkness as I die?/ For the moon and the stars will be gone like the night/ and the sun will be shining on you."

'Like the purest of gold in the furnace/ is your love strong enough to endure?/ Does your faith carry on through the shadows?/ Does it shine in the night for the world?

'Can you walk in the footprints of silence/ through the wilderness sands in the sun/ from the desert of doubt and temptation/ to the glorious mountain of fire?"

Well: Mansuur Mohammed, Saint and Martyr of Somalia, of the land of frankincense, indeed showed that his faith and love could endure 'like...gold in the furnace'.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 27, 2008 9:28 PM

DDA said:

Prior to All Souls Day, many liturgical churches ask parishioners to submit names for a list of the blessed dead that will be read out aloud during the All Souls liturgy. If your church has that practice: put Mansuur Mohammed on the list, and be sure to add a *brief* note explaining how and why he died. That way, you educate as well as edify.

Thank you. I will do exactly the same.

And as reminder that Allah forgot what he said in Revelation 20:4

Is Islam the Word of YHWH? I don't think so.

Posted by: boneshack at October 27, 2008 9:43 PM

"Somalia: Christian Aid Worker Beheaded For Converting From Islam"
.........

Muslim extremists from the al Shabab group fighting the transitional government on Sept. 23 sliced the head off of Mansuur Mohammed, 25, a World Food Program (WFP) worker...
....................................

More Jihad against peaceful aid workers.

I can't help but contrast this convert from Islam to Christianity, who stayed in his country, trying to aid his former co-religionists--with some converts *to* Islam in the West, who immediately set about trying to murder their former non-Muslim fellows in Jihad attacks.

Posted by: gravenimage at October 27, 2008 10:26 PM

Hmm. If they believe they're doing God's work, why are they hiding their faces? Could it be that they are just a bunch of bloodthirsty thugs looking for an excuse?

...And they found it in the Koran. Whodathunkit?

Posted by: blangwort at October 27, 2008 11:06 PM

I salute this true martyr but I don't expect any outpouring of rage against those who did the deed or to the ideology that inspired the geed. I see a zombie like march to churches on Sunday morning with no recognition given to this martyr and no recognition of the religious ideology that inspired the murderers. This seems to be the saddest part of the story.

Posted by: Briars at October 27, 2008 11:08 PM

The young Muslim man was smiling at you because he already had a lie and a strategy in mind to use to counter your argument. He knows he'll get away with it because hardly anyone in academia can shake off the intellectual sloth that allows these misrepresentations to stand. They KNOW that you correctly cited the majority opinion within the Islamic theological and legal communities. But they also know that most kafirs do not know this, and they are relying on a bold misrepresentation of you and your cause to serve as cover for their lies.

If the academic milieu is bent upon not hearing the truth and slandering the messenger's delivery of it, there is not much you can do.

And as I survey what is going on in the political campaign in this country, I am in a deep funk thinking about how deranged the nation has become, right down to its core, that emotionalism, laziness, enviousness of those who succeed, and competition to see who can be the most successful sycophant and shill displace truth and good sense.

Posted by: FredIsinglass at October 27, 2008 11:11 PM

Wow what a difference -- call it what you will -- between Islamic 'martyrdom,' in which you are killed while fighting for your faith, and Christian martyrdom, in which you are killed FOR your faith.

Of course, Liberals and Multiculturalists will be scratching their heads right about now... EVERYBODY KNOWS that CHRISTIANS are WOOOORRRRSE!

Odd to hear that coming from me, an atheist. Let the chips fall where they may.

Posted by: Goob at October 27, 2008 11:32 PM

All Muslims are complicit in this horror. All Muslims are the enemy. All, not some, all. 100%.

Posted by: DenverRodeo at October 27, 2008 11:50 PM

The militants allowed one of their accomplices to take a video of the slaughter using a mobile phone.

Somehow a cell phone seems like an incongruous device to be in the bloody hands of seventh century savages, especially when used to record a grisly, barbaric execution for the "crime" of apostasy.

I wonder why some modern technology, like television and movies, are banned by these retrograde demons, yet others are allowed. Muhammad didn't have a cell phone to record his genocides and murders; he had to rely on word of mouth to instill fear and submission. Much more propaganda could be disseminated by television but I guess those running the sharia courts are too dumb to figure that out. These so-called "people" are inhuman fiends.

Posted by: Susanp at October 27, 2008 11:58 PM

All Muslims are complicit in this horror. All Muslims are the enemy. All, not some, all. 100%.

Posted by: DenverRodeo

I completely agree, because by calling yourself a Muslim, you are identifying with not only the core tenets of Islam and it's instructions towards hate and violence, but you are also connecting yourself to the violent acts themselves.

Posted by: champ at October 28, 2008 12:20 AM

Worse than sick...ugly.

This is what happens when a savage who can read is given a Quran...

Posted by: duh_swami at October 28, 2008 12:25 AM

"All Muslims are complicit in this horror. All Muslims are the enemy. All, not some, all. 100%."

When it comes to war, and makes no bones about it, Jihad Islam is at war with us who love freedom, the definition of who the enemy is does change. During world war II any Nazi party member, no matter if they were a soldier carrying a weapon on the front lines, or a propaganda journalist, or a Secretary behind a desk processing documents on Jews being rounded up...they were the enemy of the United States also.

So these Muslims roaming around here in the states that show up at Mr.Spencer's speaking engagements, that do nothing but try to stem the flow of information on Jihad & how the Quran and Hadiths clearly call for it...they cry offense & "out of context" or whatever gotcha words that have worked before, just who's side are they on?

The better question is how to deal with individuals like this properly, its like Jihad by denial, deflection, using our freedom of religion against us to demand "hands off" Islam because "not all of us are terrorists" side step.

One way of dealing with this is promoting a definition of Islam that transcends religious barriers, that includes sharia law relating to Government and also cultural issues that with everyday public life that Islam undermines.

Posted by: revparadigm at October 28, 2008 12:30 AM

Is it just me or the most powerful man on earth, who claims to be a man of Christian faith, seems to have fallesn off the face of this earth on occassions liek this. While seems to turn ino a 'war president' when his dear wahhabbis are even slightly theatened by Saddams. What side of Chrisrtianity is POTUS on? Granted, Mansuur is not an American. but as someone who is sacrificing his life for Christian Faith, one would hope for some humane words for Manuur, from POTUS/Commander-in-chief/Leader of the free-world.
Is it too much to ask?

Posted by: Alert at October 28, 2008 12:31 AM

Lessons on how to fight back these murderous islamists have been forgoten, let Christian soldiers take those islamists killed in the field of battle and have them either cremated in pigfat or have them buriend in pigskins, what ever makes an islamist go crazy the worst use it against them. l am sick of having our people turn the other cheek, time to fight back. my ancestors used scalps to win wars, need we say more.

Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at October 28, 2008 12:55 AM

I'm thinking an "eye for an eye" sort of response, maybe a group hanging....or does it work better to just "kill them all & let ALLAH sort them out" in paradise?

Is there a reward for helping them find their place next to Mo by the river of wine (alcohol) & the sound of angels singing (music)?

A shame they don't allow concealed carry in Somalia, since a double-tap to each of the masked men would work wonders on uTube?

Posted by: Kauaikit at October 28, 2008 12:55 AM

I doubt Sanaa will say anything about this incident, but she will have plenty to say to her class about you, and you won't be there to 'debate' her. She will go step by step with them, explaining in detail where you went wrong, and how you are just spreading hate and corruption.
She knows how to play to a captive audience...

Posted by: duh_swami at October 28, 2008 12:57 AM

All Muslims are complicit in this horror. All Muslims are the enemy. All, not some, all. 100%.

Posted by: DenverRodeo

I completely agree, because by calling yourself a Muslim, you are identifying with not only the core tenets of Islam and it's instructions towards hate and violence, but you are also connecting yourself to the violent acts themselves.

Posted by: champ

This is an undeniable truth

Posted by: InfidelK9 at October 28, 2008 1:35 AM

DenverRodeo wrote: “All Muslims are complicit in this horror. All Muslims are the enemy. All, not some, all. 100%.”

I disagree. While the death penalty for apostasy for sane adult male Muslims is accepted in mainstream Islamic jurisprudence, and is supported by Islamic doctrine and law, not all Muslims believe that apostates should be put to death. Some Muslims believe that the penalty for apostasy is only given by Allah in the hereafter. Some Muslims, apparently a small number of them, actively oppose the apostasy penalty, arguing for the freedom to leave Islam without any earthly penalties. Some of these moderate-activist Muslims have been threatened with death by the hard-line Muslims.

I would agree that all Muslims who believe in earthly punishments for apostasy are complicit* in the horrific evil acts such as the one reported above. I would also include as complicit the non-Muslims who support culturally-based moral relativism or who otherwise enable the sharia-supporters, jihadists, etc., to carry out such acts with impunity. Muslims and non-Muslims who oppose anti-sharia and anti-jihad efforts are complicit in this beheading. Muslims and non-Muslims who oppose sharia and jihad are not complicit in this beheading.

*complicit in the social and political sense.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 28, 2008 3:48 AM

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar

Muslims and non-Muslims who oppose sharia and jihad are not complicit in this beheading.

If that is the case, why do they remain muslim, when allah calls upon muslims to strike non-muslims at the neck.

Posted by: InfidelK9 at October 28, 2008 4:58 AM

InfidelK9,

You write: "If that is the case, why do they remain muslim, when allah calls upon muslims to strike non-muslims at the neck."

I think some of them remain Muslims, at least nominally, partly out of fear of violent attacks if they reject Islam publicly. In other words, they know that some other Muslims take "strike them at their necks" as a universal command to attack and kill non-Muslims (including apostates).

Some "Muslims" are hypocrites. They know they are not Muslims but only claim to be Muslims, out of fear and social conformity.

Other Muslims may genuinely believe that verses such as 2:256 ("no compulsion in religion"), etc., have a broad meaning, carry a lot of weight, and are not abrogated by later verses that command violence for the cause of Islam. Among these Muslims are activist moderate reformer Muslims who publicly oppose sharia law and Islamist jihad. I gather that these latter Muslims don't leave Islam because they think that Islam has enough good in it that it can be salvaged as a personal faith. In short, they cherry-pick the relatively few good parts of the doctrine, and ignore or explain away the bad parts.

Because these activist moderate Muslims oppose sharia and the apostasy penalties, I do not think it would be fair to judge them as complicit in the above-reported killing of the Somali apostate.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 28, 2008 6:21 AM

...that said, I don't think that the moderate Muslims who reject the earthly penalties for disbelief generally and apostasy specifically have a strong case in light of the primary Islamic texts and Islamic law. Based on those sources, the case in favor of the earthly penalties for apostasy is, unfortunately, pretty strong:

1. The major schools of Islamic jurisprudence command the death penalty for the sane adult male who simply apostatizes publicly from Islam.

2. In the Hadith, Muhammad calls for the death penalty for apostasy. (And the Koran states that to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah, 4:80).

3. The Koran calls for the killing of some apostates under some conditions (4:89-4:91 taken together with 9:5; 9:12; 5:33).

4. The Koran calls for earthly punishments for disbelievers, including apostates, e.g., 9:66, 9:73-74.

5. The Koran states principles that are consistent with the death penalty for apostates (e.g., commands to kill disbelievers generally, and apostates are disbelievers; disbelief is the worst crime, worse than killing, for which the penalty is death)

6. The killing of apostates is not forbidden by the Koran, Hadith, or Islamic law. There is no penalty for killing apostates. Islamic law explicitly allows the killing of apostates. The Koran explicitly states that apostates will have no protectors on earth (9:73-9:74).

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 28, 2008 6:39 AM

I had an argument with a Muslim tonight, before I read this. I said I have been reading the Koran, and it has upset me greatly. She asked me how much, and I said a couple of the Suras. She said I need to talk to someone at the mosque, and that I need to read all of it before I make up my mind. I did not tell her I read this site. I asked her why she ran away from her (Islamic) country. Nothing to do with Islam, she said. I know better; but how to persuade her that she is in denial, and not lose a friend, but instead despite myself make an enemy?
I feel this is important. Islam is a horrible tragedy, and yet Muslims are in denial, and think their political leaders are not good Muslims or whatever, and cannot answer simple questions without referring to their ahifty imams.
I will tell her about this poor man, this poor but so truly brave man, much more brave than any damned fool suicide bomber, but she will have the words...she will be so confident...
Dumbledoresarmy: what church do you go to? Is it in Melbourne? I go to St Paul's but they have lost the plot...interfaith and everything... I need some inspiration.

Posted by: PG at October 28, 2008 6:42 AM

In April of 2006, on his popular IslamOnline site, the Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi wrote:

“Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished, yet they differ as to determining the kind of punishment to be inflicted upon them. The majority of them, including the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shiite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-`ashriyyah, Al-Ja`fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.”

Such "jurists" and "scholars" should be arrested for inciting murder.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 28, 2008 7:23 AM

militants that afternoon gathered the villagers of Manyafulka, telling them that they would prepare a feast for them.

So the villagers supported the militants already!
Don't tell me they were "horrified".

These villagers saw an aid worker being DRAGGED into view. They saw the sword held to his head. They heard the Koran. (What's the excuse this time - that they didn't know Arabic?) They knew full well what was about to happen. Did even one make any effort to intervene? Don't tell me they were "horrified". I'm not buying it, ever again.

Oh, that's right! The militants had guns.
If these people won't defend those who are trying to help them then no aid worker who is not a certified practicing Muslim should EVER set foot in a Muslim country. International aid programs need to set up special Muslim-only units and dispatch them and only them to any country where Muslims rule. If there aren't enough Muslims to fill out the unit then the country in need is out of luck. People like this young man don't deserve to be sacrificed.

These militants could not survive without the aid of the local villagers. There are more villagers than there are militants. If they wanted to they could kill those who threaten non-Muslims. They don't. That means they are all on the same side.

Posted by: PMK at October 28, 2008 8:49 AM

Don't worry about Muhammad. He is in peace and in the glory.
Worry about those muslims whose souls are marching to hell without even knowing it.

Father, Almighty God,
I pray that Your Spirit convicts these muslims of the horrific sin they have comited. I pray that the Muhammad's family is conforted by the loss, and those who don't know Your Son Jesus may have their hearts turned away from Islam. In Jesus Name I pray. amen.

Maranatha, Lord Jesus.

Posted by: Crusader at October 28, 2008 8:58 AM

I've said it before:

Don't feed the Somalis.

Don't educate the Somalis.

Don't heal the Somalis.

Don't try to drag the Somalis into the current century.

And, for the love of God and country, don't import Somalis!

Posted by: Abscedere at October 28, 2008 9:43 AM

I wonder how many of the Muslim 'extremists' in that photo will ultimately end up in an American town; escaping 'extremism', of course.

Posted by: PRCS at October 28, 2008 10:04 AM

From above: Don't worry about Muhammad. He is in peace and in the glory.

Somehow I doubt that...

Posted by: duh_swami at October 28, 2008 11:22 AM

duh_swami wrote:

From above: Don't worry about Muhammad. He is in peace and in the glory.

Somehow I doubt that...
......................................

Swami, I think Crusader was referring to Mansuur Mohammed, not the vicious founder of Islam.

Posted by: gravenimage at October 28, 2008 12:45 PM

Just another illustration that Islam is the perfect religion for psychopaths. They get to commit atrocities easily seen to be sanctioned by a famous "sacred" book and receive praise & back-pats for it by lots of fellow psychopaths. Perfect!

Islam's warcry: "Psychopaths of the world unite!"

Posted by: FM at October 28, 2008 1:00 PM

It could be argued that Moderate Muslims are not true Muslims in the first place by those who have chosen to uphold Islams core tenets and follow them - so what would be the point of remaining in a religion that a Muslim doesn't fully support?

For the sake of argument, lets take a look at the life of Charles Manson. Excerpt from link below:

"Charles Manson is a convicted serial killer who has become an icon of evil. In the late 1960s, Manson founded a hippie cult group known as "the Family" whom he manipulated into brutally killing others on his behalf."

http://history1900s.about.com/od/1960s/p/charlesmanson.htm

[these CM links are a dime a dozen - so they are very easy to Google]

Anyway, one could just as easily replace Charles Mansons name with Muhammad in the above excerpt, change the date, and then you have what resembles Islam, instead of "The Family".

Charles was a pussy-cat compared to Muhammad, but he did have his devout followers, and yet rational thinking people managed to see that this guy was an evil nutcase. So why does Muhammad get a pass on being an evil nutcase? Well, he shouldn't get a pass, because he not only murdered more people than Charles Manson ever did, but Muhammad committed many more heinous crimes than Charles Manson, and yet we can all agree that this guy was a kook; so anyone calling themselves a Muslim is in fact identifying themselves with not only Muhammad, but with the whole package of Islam.

My point is simple. What would you think of someone who called themselves a follower of Charles Manson? Yeah, you would think that they agreed with his crazy ideas and the crimes that he committed, right?

Ok, so what if there's another group of Manson followers who called themselves "Moderate Manson" followers, what would you think of them? Well, I for one would think that that's impossible, because you either are a follower of Manson, or you aren't; and if you don't agree with everything Manson subscribes to, then you aren't a true follower in the first place, and it's time to make a break.

Moderate Muslim is a Myth - always will be.

Posted by: champ at October 28, 2008 1:17 PM

Swami, I think Crusader was referring to Mansuur Mohammed, not the vicious founder of Islam.
Posted by: gravenimage

Ok, sorry Crusader...There are so many Mohammads I get confused...

Posted by: duh_swami at October 28, 2008 1:20 PM

Personal apostasy is not punishable by death.

Capital punishment under Islamic law, according ot some scholars, is only for those who commit "high treason", and this, although unrelated to matters of faith, is even a legal fact of the Uniform Code of Military Justice in the United States that any person who spies in time of war is to be dealt with:

UCMJ 906. ARTICLE 106. SPIES

Any person who in time of war is found lurking as a spy or acting as a spy in or about any place, vessel, or aircraft, within the control or jurisdiction of any of the armed forces, or in or about any shipyard, any manufacturing or industrial plant, or any other place or institution engaged in work in aid of the prosecution of the war by the Unites States, or elsewhere, shall be tried by a general court-martial or by a military commission and on conviction shall be punished by death.

END OF EXCERPT

It is unfortunate for this person to have been killed in that manner without due process and without the protections afforded under the law, Islamic or Secular or Military. I find it highly questionable that he was treated fairly.

He should have been given the opportunity to defend against the charge that he was "a spy for occupying Ethiopian soldiers."

On the matter of personal apostasy:

1) “Responding to the question, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research and the Fiqh Council of North America, states the following:

"There are scholars who distinguish between apostasy on a personal level, which is not punishable by death, and apostasy that is accompanied by what we call today high treason, in which case the punishment is for high treason, not for apostasy."

END OF EXCERPT

I agree.

Death to a person who commits treason is a just penalty. I do not accept that we put spies in prison during time of war in the US…they deserve death.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at October 28, 2008 2:03 PM

Abdullah, you are barking up the wrong tree,

Try to convince the mullah's in Iran about your theories, they must be misunderstanders of Islam, all of them:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/3179465/Hanged-for-being-a-Christian-in-Iran.html

Posted by: sheik yer'mami at October 28, 2008 2:15 PM

Iranians are Shia, there are many things they do that are not allowed in Islam.

But tell that to them, right?

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at October 28, 2008 2:30 PM

"Iranians are Shia, there are many things they do that are not allowed in Islam."
----
Can you elaborate?

Thanks

Posted by: The Cool Ghoul at October 28, 2008 2:41 PM

@Abdullah Mikail

It is clear you did not understand the line of thought that champ gave in the Charles Manson a few post above yours.

If you did understand the comparison this you are a lair and vainly trying to pull the wool over our eyes.

Islam is not of God and is fathered by the father of lies.

Posted by: Im.mad.as.HELL! at October 28, 2008 3:15 PM

Abdullah Mikail says:

"Personal apostasy is not punishable by death."

He then misleadingly likens the Islamic notion of apostasy to the western notion of treason.

Apostasy is made "public" as soon as the person says or otherwise indicates that they've left Islam. That public expression itself is grounds for the death penalty in most of mainstream Islamic jurisprudence (see the Qaradawi quote I cited above in a previous post).

Here is what the Reliance of the Traveller says:

Start EXCERPTS:

Chapter O-8.0: Apostasy from Islam (Ridda)

(O: Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst. It may come about through sarcasm, as when someone is told, ``Trim your nails, it is sunna,'' and he replies, ``I would not do it even if it were,'' as opposed to when some circumstance exists which exonerates him of having committed apostasy, such as when his tongue runs away with him, or when he is quoting someone, or says it out of fear.)

O-8.7: Acts that Entail Leaving Islam

(O: Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam (may Allah protect us from them) are:
1- to prostrate to an idol, whether sarcastically, out of mere contrariness, or in actual conviction, like that of someone who believes the Creator to be something that has originated in time. Like idols in this respect are the sun or moon, and like prostration is bowing to other than Allah, if one intends reverence towards it like the reverence due to Allah;
2- to intend to commit unbelief, even if in the future. And like this intention is hesitating whether to do so or not: one thereby immediately commits unbelief;
3- to speak words that imply unbelief such as ``Allah is the third of three,'' or ``I am Allah''-unless one's tongue has run away with one, or one is quoting another, or is one of the friends of Allah Most High (wali, def: w-33) in a spiritually intoxicated state of total oblivion (A: friend of Allah or not, someone totally oblivious is as if insane, and is not held legally responsible (dis: k-13.1(O:) ) ), for these latter do not entail unbelief;
4- to revile Allah or His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace);
5- to deny the existence of Allah, His beginingless eternality, His endless eternality, or to deny any of His attributes which the consensus of Muslims ascribes to Him (dis: v-1);
6- to be sarcastic about Allah's name, His command, His interdiction, His promise, or His threat;
7- to deny any verse of the Koran or anything which by scholarly consensus (def: b-7) belongs to it, or to add a verse that does belong to it;
8- to mockingly say, ``I don't know what faith is'';
9- to reply to someone who says, ``There is no power or strength save through Allah''; ``Your saying `There's no power or strength, etc,' won't save you from hunger'';
10- for a tyrant, after an oppressed person says, ``This is through the decree of Allah,'' to reply, ``I act without the decree of Allah'';
11- to say that a Muslim is an unbeliever (kafir) (dis: w-47) in words that are uninterpretable as merely meaning he is an ingrate towards Allah for divinely given blessings (n: in Arabic, also ``kafir'');
12- when someone asks to be taught the Testification of Faith (Ar. Shahada, the words, ``La ilaha ill Allahu Muhammadun rasulu Llah'' (There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) ), and a Muslim refuses to teach him it;
13- to describe a Muslim or someone who wants to become a Muslim in terms of unbelief (kufr);
14- to deny the obligatory character of something which by the consensus of Muslims (ijma`, def: B-7) is part of Islam, when it is well known as such, like the prayer (salat) or even one rak'a from one of the five obligatory prayers, if there is no excuse (def: u-2.4);
15- to hold that any of Allah's messengers or prophets are liars, or to deny their being sent;
(n: `Ala' al-din' Abidin adds the following:
16- to revile the religion of Islam;
17- to believe that things in themselves or by their own nature have any causal influence independent of the will of Allah;
18- to deny the existence of angels or jinn (def: w-22), or the heavens;
19- to be sarcastic about any ruling of the Sacred Law;
20- or to deny that Allah intended the Prophet's message (Allah bless him and give him peace) to be the religion followed by the entire world (dis: w-4.3-4) (al-Hadiyya al-`Ala'iyya (y-4), 423-24). )
There are others, for the subject is nearly limitless. May Allah Most High save us and all Muslims from it.)

O-8.1
When a person who has reached puberty and is sane voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.

O-8.4
There is no indemnity for killing an apostate (O: or any expiation, since it is killing someone who deserves to die).

End EXCERPTS

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 28, 2008 3:51 PM

Refusal to pay the zakat constitutes apostasy.

Fiqhul Ibadat, version 1.04 - Hajja Durriah Aitah
PART FIVE >> THE BOOK OF ZAKAT (CHARITY) >> The legal status of zakat and its evidence

EXCERPT

[...]Al-Bukhari, Vol. 1, The Book of Faith, Chapter 1/8]
The Muslim nation has unanimously agreed that zakat is one of the pillars of Islam.
Hence, belief in it is obligatory, and one who denies it has committed apostasy.
One who refuses to pay zakat should be fought for it, as Abu Bakr Al-Siddeeq (G. p. H) did Abu Hurayrah (G. p. H) narrated that Abu Bakr (G. p. H) said: "By the name of Allah. I will fight those who differentiate between prayer and zakat for zakat is the right of money".
[Al-Bukhari, Vol. 2, The Book of Zakat, Chapter 1/1335].

END EXCERPT

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 28, 2008 4:16 PM

PG - I'm not in Melbourne. But if you are, then maybe you should check out Rev Mark Durie's church, St Mary's, which is in Melbourne.

http://www.smac.org.au/blogs/vicar/

You may or may not agree with his views on other subjects, but he certainly has his head screwed on tight vis a vis Islam - you'll find a couple of excellent essays by him in Mr Spencer's 'Myth of Islamic Tolerance', and I've had occasion here, more than once, to recommend his little handbook, 'Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God? Jesus, Holy Spirit, God in Christianity and Islam' (Bat Yeor gave it her imprimatur).

If you drop down to the right hand side of his blog page you'll see a link to his essay 'Response to a Common Word Between Us and You', which takes to pieces that letter the Muslims sent to the Christians a year ago. There are other Islam-related pieces in those links.

Alternatively, you could google around a bit and find one of the Coptic churches - there are a few around Melbourne - and pay a visit to show solidarity. The Copts in Australia seem to be speaking out quite strongly about Muslim persecution of their folk back home in Egypt - keep a weather ear open and if they organise any street protests, as they did in fact do in July this year in Sydney, spread the word and go along to boost the numbers.

You could always see whether there are any Greek Melkite Orthodox churches in Melbourne - that's Mr Spencer's affiliation - I suspect there would be some.

Mosey along and visit at the different churches (Maronite, Assyrian Orthodox, Armenian) whose populations have 'history' with Islam - you may find people there who know what's what and are also strong in their faith.

If not - the Assembly of God folk and the Baptists are generally pretty clear about what they believe. I think the apostate Daniel Shayesteh, a Persian apostate from Islam to Christianity, who lives in Australia, is associated with the Baptists in some way and has been trying to warn people in that community about the jihad agenda.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 28, 2008 4:22 PM

Oops. I misremembered. Mr Spencer's religious affiliation is 'Melkite Greek Catholic', according to *this* interview with an Italian magazine:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023087.php

(just checked).

Deepest apologies for the error in my preceding post!

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 28, 2008 4:27 PM

Crap
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at October 28, 2008 2:03 PM

Posted by: darcy at October 28, 2008 4:40 PM

"Those who leave their Islamic faith, kill them." --Mohammed

Liar, full-of-crap-Slave-to-allah, Abdullah.

Posted by: darcy at October 28, 2008 4:42 PM

kinana,

I guess you missed this part:

“Responding to the question, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research and the Fiqh Council of North America"

Standing on the outside looking in you lack the most basic understanding of and are unqualified to make the simplest determination of what is and is not allowed in Islam...

Context...it is everything.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at October 28, 2008 4:53 PM

dumbledoresarmy: thanks very much, your advice is much appreciated.
I will, however, ask at the cathedral if they will ask the congregation to pray this Sunday for the soul of Mansuur Mohammed. They probably will avoid the issue, but it is worth a try.

Posted by: PG at October 28, 2008 5:05 PM

The Cool Ghoul

Not to offend any Shia who reads this, just an observation, but Iranian Shia hold that their Imam's are infallable, this is incorrect.

Some Iranian Shia participate in flagallation on Ashura which is injurious to the self and forbidden in Islam, and furthermore the stiking of one's self in grieving or the rending of one's clothes over the death of someone ( in their case Ali) is expressely forbidden as when God decrees something, the death of a person, we are only allowed to cry and that is a mercy from God.

Wailing, striking the face ( or the self ), rending the clothing, etc. all over the death of a person is forbidden.

You don't see this ocurring in Lebannon which is a majority Shia Muslim population...thus I premise these comments with "some"...all of them may not believe in or follow what I point to here.

In ritual wash for prayer some of the Shia hold that touching anything will invalidate their state of ritual purity such as even bumping into a door frame...and not just the things which were clearly explained as invalidating of ritual purity. Such as a woman walking in front of you as you pray, due to her "awra", or the part of her being that is attractive to men the prayer is invalidated when this happens. It has nothing to do with her and everything to do with men not being able to control their hearts upon seeing her.

Also the limits of the Shia in their ritual wash are compromised, as some believe that only wiping the crown of the forhead is required, and yet the full measure of ritual wash is required as described in hadiths.

Some of them believe in only praying on natural surfaces and as such carry a piece of clay tile around with them or a sajada (prayer matt) with a clay tile sewn into it...nothing in this respect is wrong, it is the intention that is wrong; for them to think that it is a religious requirement of the prayer is wrong.

I have been speaking to an Iranian Shia for a while and these are just some things that come to light. Granted they have their differenct sources they use to arrive at this, which the majority of Muslims understand and believe is incorrect, and they, the Shia, reject many hadiths that are sahih in order to maintain their way.

In a nut shell, that's a few.

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at October 28, 2008 5:19 PM

Charles was a pussy-cat compared to Muhammad, but he did have his devout followers, and yet rational thinking people managed to see that this guy was an evil nutcase. So why does Muhammad get a pass on being an evil nutcase?

champ,
First, the rational guys who saw through Charles Manson weren't killed. They were able to say these things without fear of death.
Next, Mohammed has too many followers today and he isn't around anymore. The myth has grown up around him. Imagine if someone picks up some of the literature about Charles Manson and decides he really was a god and that we were all wrong about him, and he starts getting more and more people to believe it. In fourteen centuries there might be another cult masquerading as a religion.

Posted by: PMK at October 28, 2008 6:07 PM

PMK - I was merely making a general comparison between the two madmen, not literal comparisons. If I wanted to do that, then I would have chosen from the hundreds of other false prophets who are out there. Any come to your mind?

I chose CM because of the excerpt I found on him, as it reminded me of MO.

Posted by: champ at October 28, 2008 6:34 PM

Mr. Mikail: Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveler) can be easily understood by the average to below-average scholar. It is the ultimate "Islam for Dummies" because it's spelled out, point by ridiculous point. Perhaps you should buy a copy for yourself and one for Dr. Jamal.
Truth and Peace to you, bro.

Posted by: former liberal WF at October 28, 2008 7:48 PM

former liberal WF

I have owned Reliance of the Traveller for years, thank you I read and understood it very well.

As in all things according to law, go stand in a law library some time. What? You mean it fills a library? Yeah, all of it is interconnected..many rulings supported by many opinions and a long history.

The Reliance of the Traveler is a summary and spells out what the determination was in particular and some times general cases but that is not the end all of the issue.

As always there is the context. (OMG that word again!) Yes, context.

Let's do an exercise in understanding:

Is it legal in the United States to shoot someone?

Your turn.

Answer it "Yes" or "No".

See what I mean...context.

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at October 28, 2008 9:53 PM

To read about others who have shown the same transcendent courage and love as Mansuur Mohammed, read the great scholar Samuel Zwemer's classic study "The Law of Apostasy in Islam", which is online in its entirety here:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/Apostasy/index.htm

Many are the saints and martyrs who have come out of Islam to Yeshua and have promptly been murdered by Muslims; Zwemer provides many, many named examples.

In the second chapter, Zwemer discusses what the classic Muslim sources say about punishment for apostasy from Islam. I recommend this chapter to all non-Muslim persons here present.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Zwemer/Apostasy/chap2.htm

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 28, 2008 10:18 PM

As grisly as this may seem, perhaps Mr Spencer should preface, and intersperse, his university talks with videos of these barbarous acts. There are many out there - representing only a fraction of the beheadings carried out under the aegis of the Religion of Peace & Tolerance each year.

These students with their immature minds might think they know what is right and wrong with the world - after all, they're young enough to know everything. But of course they don't and some shock therapy might help.

Although having said this, Geert Wilders made Fitna - in which all of the content was courtesy of adherents to that psychopathic cult. But that didn't stop Muslims universally from becoming violently enraged at HIM, for portraying THEIR barbarity - and in defiance of any natural order of things, they demanded the messenger be shot. The outrageously illogical position of demanding (with violence) that the revealing of the truth of one’s crime is somehow the crime itself. More illogical still is that so many in the West wish to appease that position.

In many respects it must seem for Mr Spencer that he is delivering his talks to a group of hopelessly irredeemable ‘lifers’ from a super-max penitentiary for the criminally insane.

“Yes Mohammed, just as you say – the world is indeed flat, we Christians and Jews are the sons of apes and pigs and yours is the religion of peace. Now take your medication like a good little Muslim…”

Posted by: The Pundit at October 28, 2008 10:34 PM

duh-swami

just a thought. You will have noticed the Mohammedan's emphasis on 'context', and his adamant insistence that only Muslims can understand the teachings of Islam.

I do not think that he is using the term 'context' as we do.

I suspect that the Muslim concept of Knowledge vs Ignorance may be a version of the old Exoteric/ Esoteric distinction that exists in the mystery religions and among occultists.

Muslims seem to be taught to regard themselves as Illuminati, as Initiated, as the Inner Ring.

The whole business of saying one thing to Insiders, another to Outsiders, and claiming in tones of utmost condescension that Outsiders, anyone who has not submitted to 'allah', cannot possibly understand the real wonderfulness of Islam, fits with this.

What do you think?

(As for whatever rush of power or pleasure they may experience inside that 'inner ring', and I wouldn't be surprised if they do get 'high', I don't think any decent human wants to feel that kind of pleasure or exercise that kind of power - for it comes from a tainted source, from deliberate willed reversals and perversions of which one of the more obvious examples is Islam's permission for adult men to engage in marital rape of prepubescent girls; and it produces, in John Quincy Adams' marvellously evocative phrase - 'desolation and delusion').

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at October 28, 2008 11:05 PM

Abdullah Mikail (AM),

You write:
AM: "kinana,I guess you missed this part:
“Responding to the question, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research and the Fiqh Council of North America""

K: I didn’t miss that part, and I did read your response carefully. I have been following this issue for the past few years, and was aware of Badawi’s stated opinions on apostasy. As my quote of Qaradawi indicated, the majority of the schools of Islamic jurisprudence have ruled that publicly expressed apostasy (by the sane adult male who refuses to repent) is punished with death. Although Badawi disagrees with that ruling, he does admit to the fact of the matter:
“There has been a wide variety of opinions by Muslim scholars throughout nearly fourteen centuries concerning punishment for apostasy with the majority of the opinion that apostasy is a capital crime as it threatens the integrity and stability of the Muslim community and state.” Source: IslamOnline, April 26, 2006.

AM: "Standing on the outside looking in"

K: You want to express the idea that being a non-Muslim puts me "outside"? That is irrelevant to the fact of the matter.

AM: “you lack the most basic understanding of and are unqualified to make the simplest determination of what is and is not allowed in Islam...”

K: I’ve read the Quran multiple times, tafsir, the Sira, and parts of the Hadith and Islamic law that are relevant to me as a concerned non-Muslim. Having informed myself, I do not accept Islam, and I have critical things to say about it. These allegations about my level of understanding and qualifications are irrelevant to the fact of the matter, which you refuse to acknowledge. As Qaradawi stated, the death penalty for public expression of mere apostasy is accepted by the majority of jurists and scholars and there is an extensive basis for this ruling in the primary Islamic texts. The death penalty is officially on the books in at least a dozen Islamic countries today, and many others that don’t have the death penalty have other penalties for mere public apostasy.

AM: "Context...it is everything."

Context is important, but that is a different issue. I am pointing out what Islamic jurists and scholars concluded about the apostasy law, and the majority of them believe that mere public apostasy must be punished with death. If you disagree with them, take up the matter with them.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 29, 2008 3:00 AM

Capital punishment under Islamic law, according ot some scholars, is only for those who commit "high treason",

So what do the other scholars say? And what percentage do they comprise of within the ummah?

Posted by: yadayada at October 29, 2008 4:10 AM

AM,

1. Just to be clear regarding qualifications, Badawi's "Dr." title is for his PhD in business administration.

2. A fatwa is an opinion; it is not law. The apostasy penalty is law, not mere opinion.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 29, 2008 4:43 AM

Abdullah Mikail (AM),

More on the qualifications issue, which you introduced, re Badawi:

1. According to the American Learning Institute for Muslims,

"American Learning Institute for Muslims
Dr. Jamal Badawi was born and raised in Egypt, and it was in Cairo that Dr. Badawi started his career as a student. He received his bachelors from Ain Shams University (Cairo, Egypt). Upon receiving the degree, he headed for America, and enrolled in Indiana University (Bloomington, IN) where he received both his Masters and doctorate in the department of Business Administration." (my bolding added)

The discoverthenetworks site gives the same information.

2. The discoverthenetworks site also mentions, re Badawi:

"Badawi is currently a member of the Board of Trustees of the International Union of Muslim Scholars and a member of the European Council for Fatwa and Research -- both groups organized and headed by Qaradawi. In July 2007 Badawi traveled to Qatar, where he was a featured guest speaker at a conference honoring Qaradawi." (my bolding added)

The head of Badawi's organization, Qaradawi, supports the death penalty for apostasy (see Qaradawi's April 2006 article on apostasy at IslamOnline).

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 29, 2008 5:13 AM

I agree with Kinana re: his reaction to InfidelK9, Champ and DenverRodeo. While we all know that the term of 'moderate Muslims' is misleading, there are enough Muslims who call themselves Muslims more out of fear of retribution should they publicly deny their faith. Reason for that - not only is apostasy a capital offense in Islamic countries - in non-Islamic countries, it would put an apostate in mortal danger from Mohammedans who see it as their role to implement Shariah law anywhere on earth - be it dar ul Harb or bilad ul Kafir. Therefore, calling all Mohammedans as complicit in this murder is overstating things, but all Muslims reading this and who don't agree with apostasy laws, as Abdullah Mikhail claims above, should be ashamed of themselves for publicly calling themselves as Muslims.

Note that the above observations are different from the potentially consequent question of whether all Mohammedans should be banned from immigrating to, or staying in, Infidel countries. They should, if for no other reason, that it's impossible for us Infidels to distinguish genuine apostates from taquiyya artists.

On the above debate between Kinana and Abdullah Mikhail, Kinana is even more right here as well. This subject is covered very thoroughly in Islam-Watch, and the apostates who run that site know what they are talking about.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at October 29, 2008 5:29 AM

IP,

Thanks; the ex-Muslims know all too well the effects of the Islamic apostasy laws and taboos.

Further sources on this topic:

1.
“The four major Sunni and the one major Shia Madh'hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.”
--Encyclopedia of Islam, see Murtadd

2.
PLENARY: BASICS OF ISLAMIC LAW
ISLAMIC CRIMINAL LAW
Sadiq Reza, New York Law School
David F. Forte, Cleveland State University
pp. 21-23. Page 22.
Ridda
"Apostasy or a falling away from Islam is punishable by death. The evidence for apostasy need only be circumstantial. Impious behavior, such as failing to pray or offending Islamic morals, can be taken as evidence of apostasy. In the Hanafi school, the male apostate is given three days to recant before being executed. The female apostate is imprisoned and beaten until she recants. In all schools, the killing of an apostate does not engender liability for retaliation or compensation. He is literally an outlaw."

3.
Robert Spencer, from the JW archives
February 12, 2007
“…the death penalty for apostasy is mainstream Islamic teaching, affirmed by all the madhahib, or schools of jurisprudence…”
"It is certainly true that Muhammad, the prophet of Islam, ordered that apostates from Islam be put to death. Although this is frequently denied, his statement "Whoever changes his religion, kill him" (من بدل دينه فاقتلوه) appears in numerous authoritative Islamic sources, including Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, An-Nasai, the Muwatta of Imam Malik, Tayalisi, Ibn Hanbal, Ibn Hibban, the Sunan al-Kubraa, Bayhaqi, Abu Ya'laa, Humaidi, Abd al-Razzaq, and Ibn Abi Shaybah."

4.
The Risala (Maliki school)
37.19c. Apostasy
"An apostate is killed unless he repents. He is given three days to repent. The same ruling applies to a woman.
[ Someone who recants from Islam. Apostasy is disbelief after affirming Islam. If he does not repent, he is killed. One does not execute him immediately but repentance is offered to him. If he refuses then he is killed. It is obligatory to delay execution for three days. If he repents, there is no problem. If not, he is killed after sunset on the third day. This judgement includes men and women. A pregnant woman is deferred until she gives birth.]
[Hashiyya: The School is that he is offered Islam every day without being punished by beating or pain or made thirsty and without threats.]"

[brackets in original]

5.
From the Almasry-alyoum site
Islamic Sharia Scholars Call for Applying Apostasy Punishment and Enacting a Law Criminalizing Inter-Faith Marriages
By Ahmed al-Beheri 12/9/2007
Excerpts.
"Dr. Nasr Farid Wasel, former Egypt Mufti, said that all scholars agree that the punishment for rejecting Islam is punishable by death, because Islam did not sanction apostasy, because it did not force or coerce any one into embracing Islam, therefore a renegade must either repent or be condemned to the punishment of apostasy, because it is the right of Allah, the Almighty.
“The apostate is killed on the grounds that he has become an atheist, not as a punishment. His killing must be carried out under conditions, as he should not be washed, or prayed on, or be buried in Muslim cemeteries and no one inherits his properties," he added” "

[note that Nasr saying "all scholars agree," was obviously an overstatement]

6.
Patrick Hughes Dictionary of Islam. Cites the Hidayah (Hanafi school)
“According to Muslim law, a male apostate, or Murtadd, is liable to be put to death if he continue obstinate in his error; a female apostate is not subject to capital punishment, but she may be kept in confinement until she recants. (Hamilton's Hidayah, vol. ii. p. 227.)”

7.
A Synthesis of the Islamic Law of Blasphemy/Apostasy. Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi (Shia).

[available at Shiaonline. States that the penalty for apostasy is death]

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at October 29, 2008 9:40 AM

I think I understand Abdullah's rejection of the death penalty for apostasy.

Because to do so...makes him an apostate, and he doesn't want to die!

Posted by: Mo Foe at October 30, 2008 12:50 PM

I am a Muslim and I find this an abominable act of medieval barbarity and I KNOW most Muslims will agree with me.

So cut out the `all-Muslims are-evil' stuff will you guys?

Also, isnt it ironic that US Southern evangelicals who support the death penalty in America are the most outraged on this board? Is it the act of execution, the method it was carried out or just the identity of the executioner that so offends them?

Not sure.

Posted by: Gorgi at November 1, 2008 2:32 PM

Hello Gorgi,

It isn't Muslims that people are getting at. For Christians who are text adherent "I am you and you are me, and we respect each other as people". The issue is text adherent Muslims who believe that the words of Mohammed (and his subsequent actions) are the immutable word of the Almighty - You need to read the original immutable word which Jesus (Yeshua, you call him Isa) and all the first Christians used ie the Tanach (Old Testament). In short, Yeshua tells you how to do the TNK, because all G*d;'s ways are gentleness and all his paths are peace, so if a Christian strays from this, it is wrong, he shouldn't be an aggressor.

Let's look at what is happening in the Congo by someone claiming to be evngelical Christian - Jesus never condones Jihad - he is not a respecter of peoples and this is why anyone can come to him, he fulfills what is expected: act justly, love mercy and walk HUMBLY with the Eternal. In contrast the actions of Mohammed and the written Islamic documents and the early apologists of th ahadith and Qur;an clearly state that Jihad is a requirment for all Muslims.

As Muslims claim to be from Ishmael then I would suggest you read Genesis 16:12 .......his (Ishmael;s) hand will be against everyone and everyones's had will be against his, and he will live amongst his brethren. Islam is the only religion which is getting everyone;s back up, everywhere, early Catholicism as wrong as this was, went after Jews in the inquisition and Arabs to get Jerusalem both wrong.

Other useful quotes, since you are religious: Ovediyah, it;s only 1 chapter long - Psalm 83, Daniel 7 and 9 are good, but too difficult for you yet, revelation 20 as quoted by others above and of course, you have Isa, so just the red words of Yeshua (Isa).

Shalom Aleichem.

Posted by: snufkin at November 1, 2008 2:53 PM