Where can I get one of those stickers??
I would proudly display it on both my vehicals

Posted by: IslamBgone at November 13, 2008 10:08 PM

If anyone knows where we can get one of those stickers - it is about time we started to take a stand and tell the truth instead of letting the left and muslims in our country hide it from everyone!

Posted by: R_not at November 13, 2008 10:22 PM

I have done some web searches for this bumper sticker and am not finding it anywhere.

Posted by: R_not at November 13, 2008 10:32 PM

THAT sticker is "offensive"?

I thought the military was supposed to be tougher than this. It appears they need some insensitivity training.

Telling the truth will always offend people unfortunately.

Posted by: S Perry at November 13, 2008 10:36 PM

Let the mutiny begin!

Posted by: S Perry at November 13, 2008 10:40 PM

Those whom the gods would destroy, first they make crazy.

A person who sees those decals as offensive, in that or any other context, has fewer survival instincts than I like to see in a fellow American.

Posted by: venividivici at November 13, 2008 10:50 PM

How can you win a war when the enemy is protected from being insulted? This is just bizarre.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at November 13, 2008 11:09 PM

It's a powerful statement precisely because it is so true.

Posted by: Wellington at November 13, 2008 11:32 PM

Maybe he should've just driven in wearing full islamic burka.

Posted by: leon at November 13, 2008 11:33 PM

interestinconundrum,

I took no offense from the bumper sticker at all.

And by the way, if knowing is half the battle, and you have absolutely no clue, or who it is you are fighting, or why it is that you are fighting, but you just know you hate "them", how are you ever going to figure out what winning or loosing looks like?

Targeting concrete realistic achievable goals and approaching them in a stepwise defined manner is the only way to succeed at anything.

If you haven't a clue, how are you going to get from "here" to "there?"

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 13, 2008 11:37 PM

Unfortunately these policies of PCMC that are highly selective in defending Islam have been established in military institutions throughout the West. PCMC (or whatever one may call it) is literally costing us lives.

I recall a few years back a Canadian sniper unit operating in Afghanistan was disbanded because allegedly someone in the unit wrote "f--- terrorism" on a dead jihadi. (Granted, I think some minor reprimand would have been appropriate, but certainly not disbanding the entire unit). The members of this unit were highly effective, able to use their specialized long guns and scoping equipment to sight and kill jihadists from a kilometer or more away (I believe the record distance for a kill was over 2 km). One can only imagine how many NATO soldiers and Afghan civilians have been killed by the numerous jihadists that might have otherwise been killed by the sniper team. How many people have we lost because that one sniper unit is no longer there? Now multiply that figure several thousand-fold and ask How many people have we lost due to PCMC in the military?

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 13, 2008 11:43 PM

I want to know who the hell is in charge of Arlington National Cemetery, the congressman/woman whose district the Cemetary is in, and anyone who is in a six degree of separation of that place.

I'm posting it on my site and spreading the word. This is an ABOMINATION and needs to be stopped.

Posted by: savage_nation at November 13, 2008 11:45 PM

let me clarify an unclear sentence:
One can only imagine how many NATO soldiers and Afghan civilians have been killed by the numerous jihadists, jihadists that might have otherwise been killed by the sniper team.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 13, 2008 11:48 PM

savage nation,

No, no, no...you got it all wrong...it's not:

"This is an ABOMINATION and needs to be stopped."

Its:

"This is an OBOMANATION and needs to be stopped!"

Now that's all cleared up we can go on with the rest of our night.

: )

Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 13, 2008 11:48 PM

Kinana of Khaybar,

I think your Freaudian slip more honestly painted you with your true colors:

Kinana you wrote "civilians have been killed by the numerous jihadists that might have otherwise been killed by the sniper team."

Yeah, I guess in your heart of hearts we know what you intended even if you weren't cognizant.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 13, 2008 11:51 PM

So, the terrorists weren't muslim?

Posted by: PorkFatRules at November 13, 2008 11:52 PM

Abdullah

"Now that's all cleared up we can go on with the rest of our night."

Is that spending the evening with one's trousers wrapped around one's ankles searching google for pictures of goats?

Posted by: leon at November 13, 2008 11:54 PM

PorFatRules,

What's a "terrorist?" I mean, honestly, that word has lost any real meaning.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 13, 2008 11:54 PM

Anyone have a source for that bumper sticker? I like it - it will go well with "Defeat Jihad".

Posted by: Jimmy Bones at November 13, 2008 11:58 PM

leon,

You cheeky little mud monkey you.

"Is that spending the evening with one's trousers wrapped around one's ankles searching google for pictures of goats?"

Have you been posting pictures of your mother again?

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 12:00 AM

Abdullah,

It's not a Freudian slip (unconscious) if I'm aware of it and correct it. Anyways, I don't put much stock in Freud, who I find to be unscientific. Sometimes an unclear sentence is just an unclear sentence. You would best devote your efforts to deciphering all those unclear statements in your Quran (start with 3:7).

One of the advantages of the sniper units is that they are much more precise and therefore civilian casualties are reduced.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 12:03 AM

They say Islam, we say......

Posted by: Bosch Fawstin at November 14, 2008 12:07 AM

Also, check out my Pigman bumper sticker:

'Oink if you've JiHadit' at my online store by clicking the NEVER NEVER NEVER SUBMIT Pigman icon at the top right of my blog.

Posted by: Bosch Fawstin at November 14, 2008 12:09 AM

Love the bumper sticker.

As far as offending Muslims go, the military needs to understand Muslim males are offended by mere presence of non-submissive infidels, many in fact are driven into that Koran sanctioned murderous blood rage called Jihad as a result.

In fact Muslims are often enraged to the point of murder merely by showing them stick figure drawings of their master Mohemmet or art work or music of any kind.

In short we can't placate Muslims, so we're better off giving them the old middle-finger.

Posted by: waltc at November 14, 2008 12:35 AM

"mud monkey"

Isn't that against your religion to think about monkeys?

What if a muslim thinks about a pig? Do their brains explode?

Or do their trousers fall below their knees?

Posted by: leon at November 14, 2008 12:56 AM

This makes me angry. Pismopal: thanks for the phone number. I'll be calling in the morning. Yes of course I'll be civil.

Posted by: Lt. Presley O'Bannon at November 14, 2008 1:24 AM

Just another sign of the soulless degeneracy which is so pervasive in the pandering, disgusting, anti-warrior culture which dominates our military leadership.

This isn't happening in a vacuum. It is clearly the result of what David Hackworth predicted so many years ago.

Cowards flourish when men abdicate.

Posted by: infidel! at November 14, 2008 2:39 AM

Leon
Don't forget the Muslim male anatomy: the brain is IN the trousers.

So as you suggest...if they think about a pig, and the brain explodes, the trousers are blown completely away before there's time for them to fall below the knees.
......................
Seriously though, that political correctness could prevent a veteran from visiting a grave for ANY reason (no matter how offensive) is so far beyond the pale that it's incomprehensible.

Political correctness itself is so evil that it's destroying us.

Posted by: corax at November 14, 2008 2:41 AM

wait....are you all telling me that the muslims have taken control of our country and now their weilding the hammer on "We The People"....say it ain't so!

Posted by: oppressiondetester at November 14, 2008 4:58 AM

The lawsuit names the Camp Lejeune Commanding Officer as a defendent. That is the problem with strictly non-political "tough guys." They can be led around by the nose if their career is on the line. They are just bureaucrats in camo. They easily fall victim to being dupes for all sorts of corrupt ideologies and politically correct policies like this. Most of the German military under then nazis were non-ideological like this guy.

Posted by: Max Publius at November 14, 2008 5:05 AM

Next thing, a 'Trash Nazism' sticker will be deemed offensive :(((

Posted by: Henrik at November 14, 2008 5:52 AM

While I haven't found the physical sticker, the graphic can be found here.

Quote:
Feel free to copy Mr. Nieto's graphic above and display it to your heart's content.

'nuff said.

Posted by: Henrik at November 14, 2008 5:55 AM

ABDULLAH: "What's a "terrorist?" I mean, honestly, that word has lost any real meaning."

RESPONSE: Only to those whose moral compass is so completely distorted that they can't see.

A terrorist is one who DELIBERATELY and WILLFULLY targets non-combatants for murder and mayhem to achieve political goals.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 14, 2008 7:09 AM

The soulless minions of orthodoxy are in charge.

Posted by: PMK at November 14, 2008 7:25 AM

I agree with abdullah there are no terrorists there are us and them and it is time we either fight or admit defeat abdullah you are right muslims are not terrorists you are the enemy pal and like the nazi and the japanese we need to ammiliate you till you quit as you muslims not jihadists for you follow the path of the quran fight to kill all different every where you the muslim are we should be killing everyone of you like india like phillpines like nepal thailand like you do in georgia china all asia all of western europe like in mexico venisuala we should be doing to you bud your time is up no ones listening maybe you get some lies from our politicians but millons of us have joined or are ready to join the battle the hindu you butcher the zen the pagan the christian the jews.
Abdullah how is it you guys are even attacking the buddhist is everyone else suppressing you the poor muslim or as we see in majority muslim nations are you oppressing every one else even your own sects brother let me tell you something you will lose and are loseing millons of you have been killed by us not many of us have you have killed more of your own then we have killed keep pumping out the kids soon there will be no adults left to train them to murder others like you have around the world then they can learn peace.

Posted by: spcbat at November 14, 2008 7:27 AM

EXCUSE ME IF IM WELL FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD ANGRY AT THOSE YOU HELP BUTCHER YOU THE MUSLIM ARE A BLIGHT ON MAN KIND PAL SELL YOUR OIL SOMEWHERE ELSE

Posted by: spcbat at November 14, 2008 7:29 AM

On the upside, here's the coolest thing I've seen in probably a month: http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/shamous1/?action=view¤t=IraqiWeddingg.flv

Theygottago needs to copy that jpeg and put it in his/her Cafepress shop. I've gotten away with that before. I made myself Faithfreedom stickers, with Mr. Sina's permission, of course. I told him to open a shop but he hasn't. Theygottago, you need to write him and make a deal with him. I wanna see Faithfreedom stuff everywhere I go.

Posted by: jdamn at November 14, 2008 7:40 AM

Just imagine, if it was 1942 and we were in the middle of WWII, I am sure that Hitler would have had an agent to talk to us on this website. The person that Hitler would have chosen to do this would have been whitty, condecending, and intelligent. But his goal would have been to undermine and distract our entire discourse so as to demoralize us.

What this current enemy of ours does not know is that those at this website are learning first hand the reality that this enemy of ours is real, intelligent, and capable of thinking far beyond the average goat herder of the middle east. This should encourage all of us to avoid underestimating this enemy, which has been the most serious problem in this war thus far.

Posted by: Spot on at November 14, 2008 8:06 AM

If we are going to survive as a nation, we are going to have to decide who is our friend and who is our foe. If we cannot do that, we will cease to exist. I hope this was just one ignorant cemetary employee who will be promptly fired.

Posted by: Spot on at November 14, 2008 8:13 AM

Pigman is my hero!

Posted by: tanstaafl at November 14, 2008 8:26 AM

Posted by: Cornelius at November 14, 2008 7:09 AM

"A terrorist is one who DELIBERATELY and WILLFULLY targets non-combatants for murder and mayhem to achieve political goals."

That pretty much sums it up...now tell us how the word "terrorist" is used today...because it as been cultivated to no longer mean what you just said but something entirely different.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

P.S. I would like to apologize to goats and monkeys for any reference of their genetic likeness to leon, who fantasizes about procreating with both most likely, none of my business: don't ask, don't tell.

P.S. leon, "..squeal like a pig boy..."

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 9:27 AM

Is that spending the evening with one's trousers wrapped around one's ankles searching google for pictures of goats?
Posted by: leon

You suckered the mental giant Abdullah into a 'Yer mama where's combat boots' game, and he fell for it. Lol...

On topic...If the military does not quit playing
PC, social engineering games with the troops, like this BS, and even worse, bringing soldiers up on charges for doing what they were trained to do,
no one will want to sign up, and a draft will only result in very unhappy soldiers with no morale at all...

In short, the military is shooting itself in the foot...stupid... because it's avoidable...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 9:28 AM

Muslims are inculcated with the belief that they are in a state of permanent war with Infidels, and the obvious corollary is that we, Infidels, are in a state of permanent war -- one few of us fully recognize -- with Muslims. Thus, in this state of permanent war -- which need not require open warfare or qitaal to be conducted -- passion is needed. Mere reason does not give people the steely resolve, the fury, that they need. Mere reason does not do it. "Reason is a slave to the passions." Who wrote that? Hume, the supreme rationalist.

There are passions and passions. Some are unseemlily expressed, and merely repel those who still need to be won over. Some are not so unseemilily expressed, and if the arts of rhetoric are put in a uniform and marched off in the service of making people go beyond the mere tepidities of reason, it can be of value. Is it a rant, of the kind that will merely offend potential allies, or is it a statement that should not offend, but merely states strongly a feeling widely shared? Or, still better, is it an eloquent appeal, couched so attractively, so humorously, that even those at first doubtful will have trouble resisting that appeal?

There are examples of each, every day, on practically every thread of this website. None of them, from worst to best, should be censored. But those who want the same outcome should think carefully of how to win over the yet broad mass of those who are ignorant, and those who do not wish to find out too much -- for fear of what it might then compel them to have to think about what is to be done, and how, and why.

Each case is different.

Posted by: Hugh at November 14, 2008 9:28 AM

It's a pity Ms. West felt the need to bring up (her undoubted opposition to) gay marriage in her article. What the devil does that have to do with opposition to Islam? I am gay and strongly oppose Islam. I suppose Ms. West would be confused. Does. Not. Compute. Eh Madam West? No wait, I understand: one must be a "traditionalist" to oppose Islam. Got it.

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at November 14, 2008 9:31 AM

I agree with Cornelius definition of the word
Terrorist/terrorism...But Abdullah is right that it has been tortured to mean a number of things, not necessarily related to each other.

However it is pretty clear that terrorism as a tactic is lauded in the Quran, and freely used by Mohammad in his exploits.

It is also a word, one of many, who's meaning has been deliberately obscured by the clever, who lay word magick on us by the hour.

Islam and filthy kufrs have a common enemy...The clever. The reason the clever use dirty tricks is because they work...There are Kuffar clevers, and Islamic clevers...Word magick is just one of their tools... The way to get over being tricked, is to get over being tricked...For the intelligent that would mean a push away from Islam, not an embrace of it...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 9:39 AM

Perhaps it would be more palatable to the Military if he added to the sticker “But We Still Send Them Aid, And Democracy”.

Posted by: Shakey_Premise at November 14, 2008 10:12 AM

"A terrorist is one who DELIBERATELY and WILLFULLY targets non-combatants for murder and mayhem to achieve political goals."

..and those who aid and abet them, either ideologically, or with propaganda, or financially. Since the Muslim Brotherhood spawned Hamas, Al Qaeda, and Islamic Jihad, and since it has financially aided at least Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and since they have devoted themselves to aiding them and every violent Muslim criminal who has ever gotten busted in the Free World ideologically, financially, and with propaganda, they are a terror network. They are what Alley Cat Allies is to local TNR programs or what ACORN is to "community organizations:" a mother organization. Furthermore, they own 99% of the mosques (sleeper cells) in North America and Western Europe, so any Muslim who has ever attended or donated to one of their mosques or their front groups is, therefore, a terrorist. And since all Muslims in North America and Western Europe have done just that, ALL MUSLIMS IN OUR MIDST ARE UNEQUIVOCALLY TERRORISTS. You worked for, who was it? NAIT, AM? Or was it some local Ikhwan front group?

Practicing Islam in and of itself necessitates supporting those (if not being one of them)who "struggle" to kill us kafirs and seditiously undermine our Free-World nations. Don't tell me that you or any other mosque-attending, zakat-paying, or even just ass-wiping, Jew-cursing, death-to-America-and-Israel praying Muslim isn't a terrorist. You all are and you all know it. And so do we.

I hope you pimp your daughter away to a real Muslim like the one who murdered that poor Polish girl, one who you thought was suitable to sell her to under physical duress for $200, but who then teaches you Islam really works, Abdullah. She's what? 6 now? Better get a'cracking. It might be hard finding one since the rest of your family have souls and the usual incestuous, endogamous way of during business (the business being pimping one's daughters and sisters into incestuous Sharia sex slavery) won't work for you. If you wait until she's 12 no Muslim will purchase her except the FOBs who will get citizenship and then turn all Islamic on her like the friend of the Polish girl's boyfriend.

Kafir Nonbeliever, I completely agree with you. Those of us united in the anti-jihad movement should unite. Period. And we should do it around the belief that all human beings are just that, and are therefore entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness/property. That is the cornerstone of opposition to Sharia. That is the crux of the argument against Islam itself: that genocide, slavery (of all women, of infidels, and of the mind and conscience), rape, torture, and plunder - which comprise the foundation of Islam, both ideologically and in practice - are unequivocally unacceptable. To take issue with good, law-abiding, tax-paying Americans who enrich our nation, is, first and foremost, unethical and immoral; it is also un-American, un-Judeo-Christian, and uncivilized. It is also simply unproductive because gays, like women and intellectuals, should be those who are most opposed to Islam and jihad because we are the ones who stand to lose the most at its hands. Gays are our allies in this movement and that they are entitled to equality under our laws is one of the major things that makes us better than Muslims: our tolerance for good people.

Taking issue with what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own bedrooms is patently Islamic because it's small-minded, petty, unjustifiable, and because it hinges upon the belief that what free people do - legally - that don't hurt or even affect anyone is somehow the business of society at large. It saddens me to hear that come from Diana West. It saddens me to hear that come from Christian fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews too. In my experience gays respond to criticism of Islam just like intellectuals do: with fabricated, tu quoque, anti-Christian logical fallacies and they do it because of people like Diana West, who take issue with the "gay lifestyle," which, in my experience, is fun, progressive, supportive, caring, brave, and elevates people's property values. I blame Christian fundamentalists and Orthodox Jews for that, not gays. Gays are open-minded and listen to legitimate viewpoints. I suppose Diana West would throw Bruce Bawer to the Muslim wolves? How about Geert Wilders, who consistently stands up for the rights of gays? Jesus loves you, I love you, we love you. I don't know what's wrong with Diana West. That gays have the same rights under the law in the Free World is what makes us a superior society. Supremacist thinking like that has no place in it.

Posted by: jdamn at November 14, 2008 10:17 AM

Hugh expresses bigotted egocentric view point with:

"Muslims are inculcated "

Hugh should have properly stated:

" I think Muslims are inculcated ..."

Because this is just an opinion and not a fact.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 10:30 AM

Jdam: Gays are open-minded and listen to legitimate viewpoints.

That may be true of the gays you talk to, and it is also true of my two adult male nephews who are gay, one has HIV, maybe AIDS...But it is not true of the large number of gays, who are causing disturbances in churches, and in the streets. Those who cannot and will not accept the legitimate vote of the people.
I'm sorry, but no matter who you are, you can't have your own way all the time. That's gays and Mohammadans both...

Peaceful demonstrations are always welcome (as far as I am concerned), move that into disruption and you lose my sympathy...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 10:39 AM

jdamn, “ALL MUSLIMS IN OUR MIDST ARE UNEQUIVOCALLY TERRORISTS.”

Do you have hands that hang well below your knees, with thick calluses on your knuckles that click on the pavement, and does your Klan cape hang proudly along side your rebel flag?

“You worked for, who was it? NAIT, AM? Or was it some local Ikhwan front group?"

So now you are a conspiracy theorist?

“Practicing Islam …”

Quite the fanciful dime store novel education you have there about what “Islam” is to you…oh, I forgot, you were speaking pontifically since you now speak for everyone on the planet who is non-Muslim.

“That gays have the same rights under the law in the Free World is what makes us a superior society.”

Jdamn, I thought you bragged of being a straight woman? Are you hiding something in the closet here?

“Supremacist thinking like that has no place in it.”

Well, that would include Christians, Jews, and Muslims…I guess anyone who has any moral certitude to you is a “Supremacist”, right?

Perhaps you should next take on bigots and xenophobes…oh, wait a minute…that would be self loathing to you, wouldn’t it?

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 10:46 AM

Because this is just an opinion and not a fact.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

True enough, but that's what it's all about isn't it. Opinion. Sometimes based in fact, often not, as is the case of Islam.

If we were to live by your opinions Abdullah, we would all be in a lot of trouble...

The only viable fact of Islam is that few of its facts, are viable.

Truth

duh swami

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 10:56 AM

"The only viable fact of Islam is that few of its facts, are viable."

duh swami

Your posts lead me to believe that facts are something you have trouble grasping.

Emotional rhetoric does not equate to fact, and that seems to be something you grasp firmly.

Your opinions about Islam is are just that, your own emotional rhetoric, your own non facts.

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 11:13 AM

I remember a while back a running debate between people commenting about a story showing some latest example of dhimmitude in Britain, and a few of the Americans were harshly criticizing the British.

Well, this kind of story today shows that none of us countries in the West has a monopoly on dhimmi-stupidity. The US is no better than Britain. The entire country of America should be ashamed. This man should sue the US government and the Pentagon for millions of dollars.

Posted by: DenverRodeo at November 14, 2008 11:19 AM

AM, I was pointing out the ridicuolous lies in your posts. Since you can't argue like an adult, i.e., with actual logic, I will only deign to address the ridiculous logical fallacies and absurdities in your statements.

Do you have hands that hang well below your knees, with thick calluses on your knuckles that click on the pavement, and does your Klan cape hang proudly along side your rebel flag?

Did you miss the rant about the inportance equality of all people under the law, about how supremacist thinking has no place in the Free World? Too logical, irrefutable, full or words with more than 2 syllables? And you call me a bigot? Wha?

“You worked for, who was it? NAIT, AM? Or was it some local Ikhwan front group?"

So now you are a conspiracy theorist?

It has been established that both you and your wife worked worked for an Ikhwan front group in Texas. This is fact. That makes you a terrorist, as do your zakat payments and sleeper cell ("mosque") visits. My saying so does not make me a conspiracy theorist.

“Practicing Islam …”

Quite the fanciful dime store novel education you have there about what “Islam” is to you…oh, I forgot, you were speaking pontifically since you now speak for everyone on the planet who is non-Muslim.

I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself. You pulled that out of your ass. I know what those "prayers" consist of and I know what zakat is about. I've read "Alms for Jihad." Refute what I said logically. Don't pick it apart and go off tangents that you fabricated like a 5-year-old with ADHD.

“That gays have the same rights under the law in the Free World is what makes us a superior society.”

Jdamn, I thought you bragged of being a straight woman? Are you hiding something in the closet here?

I don't recall ever having gone into who I invite into my bedroom in here. That it would occur to you to care is patently Islamic. So is your homophobia. Way to de facto undermine your claim in believing that all people are equal, you supremacist creep.

“Supremacist thinking like that has no place in it.”

Well, that would include Christians, Jews, and Muslims…I guess anyone who has any moral certitude to you is a “Supremacist”, right?

Actually, AM, Christians and Jews preach and practice the Golden Rule as a matter of dogma. Only Muslims divide the world into men/genetically inferior, immoral, inherently filthy, undead, mutilated, sex-slave corpses to be raped, enslaved, and pimped, and into believers/infidel apes and pigs to be killed, enslaved, raped, extorted, tortured, and plundered. Moral certitude consists of abiding by the Golden Rule, the true, objective measure of both ethics and morality. You have none, being necessarily a supremacist, pedophilic, raacist misogynist. Or did you apostacize in the last 5 minutes?

Perhaps you should next take on bigots and xenophobes…oh, wait a minute…that would be self loathing to you, wouldn’t it?

That was exactly what I just did. Real Americans can come from wherever; it's just a matter of contributing to society rather than working to undermine the law of the land like you do every Friday at the sleeper cell, with your zakat payments, and with your seditious, genocidal prayers. Again, were the 2+-syllable words too much for you? I take on supremacists and those who commit treasonous sedition 5+ times a day and fund terrorism, jackass. The 'self-loathing' statement wasn't even logically false so much as it was nonsensical. Go be a good Muslim and beat your purchased Sharia sex slave and genitally mutilate your daughter/sex slave.

Posted by: jdamn at November 14, 2008 11:24 AM

Max Publius wrote:
"The lawsuit names the Camp Lejeune Commanding Officer as a defendent. That is the problem with strictly non-political 'tough guys.' They can be led around by the nose if their career is on the line. They are just bureaucrats in camo."

You're being unfair to these commanding officers, the ones who make the decisions on the front lines, so to speak. Who among them, having observed the persecution (sic) of the Marines for the unfortunate civilian deaths at Haditha, and before that, the dismissal of Stephen Coughlin and the railroading of Border Patrol Agents Ramos & Compean for performing their duty, can be blamed for resisting the CiC, shrub, who, from just days after 9/11 down to the present, and probably through to the end of his sorry administration, has insisted that in both word & deed, we honor islam as the co-equal of the other Abrahamic faiths that helped build this country, though everyone with a brain knows this to be false?

Posted by: sheik yer booty at November 14, 2008 11:25 AM

jdamn you wrote “AM, I was pointing out the ridicuolous [sic] lies in your posts. Since you can't argue like an adult, i.e., with actual logic, I will only deign to address the ridiculous logical fallacies and absurdities in your statements.”

Well, I am a Muslim, and you are not. I study to find the truth, and you do not – you study to find anything you can take emotional issue with and support your projection bias with.

There are no constructive productive debates with an emotional person who is not well educated in the subject being discussed…and thus you arrive at the childish assumption, “What I am reading doesn’t agree with what I think, so it must be a lie.”

Rather than my understanding of what is being discussed, most often, and knowing with certsaintiy and able to back it up with proof, that your position is a lie, not just “emotionally” responding.

“And you call me a bigot? Wha?"

Yes, you are a bigot…anyone who says “ALL of this GROUP…are…(insert negative stereotype)…” Yes, you are a bigot.

“It has been established that both you and your wife worked worked for an Ikhwan front group in Texas.”

That is an outright lie. Prove otherwise and I will apologize...and you can never prove that insane comment of yours.

“I never claimed to speak for anyone but myself.”

No, you spoke of “we” and “us” and “them” without qualifiying, and you made blanket bigoted statements about "ALL MUSLIMS"…remember? I know it may be tough for you, try hard...if you fail, just re-read what you wrote, okay?

“Only Muslims divide the world…”

Again the arrogance of a bigot knows no limits…you spew bigoted pontifical comments then attempt to stand on a soap box and tell others about “supremacist” ideology.

You are simply ignorant about what Islam really teaches…you just don’t know.

"with your seditious, genocidal prayers.”

More proof that you are truly an unhinged childish bigot.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 11:39 AM

All my opinions of Islam are based on reading the Quran twice, lots of references, Hadith, lots of references, other books, articles, opinions and facts. But most importantly, by paying attention to what Mohammadans themselves say, what they read, who they pray to, and the resulting atrocities. Both to dar al-harb, and yourselves, dar al-Islam. Mohammadans treat other mohammadans like sht. A false front of love and respect, while you murder your own tribes people, relatives and daughters.

This is what you try to hide, behind fine sounding phrases. You are clever, but not quite clever enough...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 11:40 AM

AM:Well, I am a Muslim, and you are not. I study to find the truth, and you do not...

Well that's a huge assumption that only a mind reader could make.

If you were really looking for the truth, you would have found that Islam does not possess it.

What is the truth of Islam? The only thing approaching the truth, and that is a lie, is that Allah is the real God...If you actually realized that, you don't need anything else. The rest of Islam is excessive baggage, lies or not.

You see Abdullah, you need the lies of Islam to sustain you, in the same way other religious people who believe in sin, need sin to sustain them. If there were no sin, there would be no need
of a savior to save them from it, no need to spend money on a lavish building, no reason to condemn anyone short of criminality.

The lies of Islam stand in for sin...If sin is real, you can't avoid retribution by converting to Islam...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 11:53 AM

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 11:40 AM

Yes, you have done a little of your own research, but I on the other hand have studied the Quran for thirteen years and did a comparative study of four major translation of it in English along side during that time frame verifying every verse in Arabic to the English translations of the meaning to ensure accuracy in meaning was conveyed. There are some variations that cause misunderstanding as well as many meanings that are left out in verses that have words with as much as six different meanings…much is left to be desired in the translations of the meaning.

I also did a lot of research during that same time frame on Shafii Juris Prudence, many hadiths, Fiqh us Sunnah, etc.

My faith and understanding of Islam is from core texts and not twisted outside opinions.

At least be responsible in issuing you opinions, because they are most often not fact.

Yes, bring up a fact and lets tear it up together. In the end you are free to disagree with my opinion, my research, etc. But be responsible and try not to project your opinion upon easily more than a billion human beings…it just causes total lack in credibility.

Yes, there are many people who claim a “religious” right to what they are doing and pretend there is justification. When looked at almost always their justification is truly there…but that does little to help their victims, right?

There are those of us working to teach a better understanding of what Islam truly teaches.

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 11:59 AM

TYPE ERROR: feel free to spin it you will anyway : )

When looked at almost always their justification is NOT truly there…but that does little to help their victims, right?

Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 12:03 PM

I don't know how old you are Abdullah, and I don't know how long you have been 'searching' for the truth, but I do know you have not found it in Islam because you are not in complete agreement with it.

I used to search for the truth until I found out the God (so called) is directly experiential, it's possible to achieve that, and that is the only truth that really counts.
You will not get this experience with Islam.

I searched Christianity, Taoism, Buddhism,
Hindu Vedanta, the Qaballah, Magick, witchcraft, occultism, all sorts ritual and meditations...plus I worked in psychiatric hospitals for years, up close to very dangerous people. I have seen every mental abnormality that exists...

The truth that you claim you have, but do not, is also not in any of the above...In order to find truth, you must go outside the confines of your particular religion...Hint...'Love without an object'...

truth

duh swami...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 12:15 PM

duh swami,

Believe whatever you want, you may understand your own "faith" but you do not understand Islam.

Hopefully we two can meet in the end of all of this thing called life and we'll compare notes.

Till then,

Caio
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 12:48 PM

Dont Tread On Me

Posted by: A_Plague_on_Both_Houses at November 14, 2008 12:52 PM

"TYPE ERROR: feel free to spin it you will anyway : )"

AM - you used a smiley face in your above comment. Naughty, naughty! Don't you know that it's haram to do that? What would allah think? No Sex Heaven for you, I guess. BTW, do you believe in that crap?

Posted by: champ at November 14, 2008 1:46 PM

Being a Muslim who is serving in the military I can kind of see both sides of this. Although this man has made a terrible sacrifice for his country I do not believe that most free speech laws should apply on base. We would not allow protesters to protest on base.

Also since they did not ban him from base only his vehicle none of his rights were really violated. We do not want civil goverment telling us what can and cannot happen on base. I'm sure that the base duty officer would be more than happy to take him to see his son's grave.

Posted by: Shade at November 14, 2008 1:46 PM

By "all Muslims" I meant anyone who abides by the 5 pillars:

1) Shahada: take an irrevocable (under penalty of death) oath to worship a pedopilic mass-murderer who is in practice placed above Allah

2) Salat: commit treasonous sedition and practice Judeophiba and Christiphobia 5 times a day (6 times for the genital-mutilating Shafi'is)

3) Hall: a series of pre-Islamic rituals which feed the Saudi economy; getting trampled and kissing a black rock housed in a silver vagina

4) Sawm: a made-up invention to appease Westerners when in actuality Ramadan is about not trying to steal land for a month, but rather just plundering, killing, enslaving, and raping for profit; stolen from Judaism

5) Zakat: Alms for jihad; funding terror with 2.5% of one's income. Does not translate to 'charity.' Muslims don't believe in charity, nor is there an Arabic equivalent of the word.

By "we," I meant Jihadwatchers. You are the only one who has come out spewing bigoted hatred towards homosexuals, AM. My knowledge of Islam comes from the Koran, the Hadith, and the Sunna. The Hadith in particular does a fantastic job of setting up the men/genetically inferior, immoral, inherently filthy, undead, mutilated, sex-slave corpses to be raped, enslaved, and pimped, and into believers/infidel apes and pigs to be killed, enslaved, raped, extorted, tortured, and plundered dichotomies. There is no morality in Islam. There is dualism and submission, coupled with a few abrogated verses which instruct Muslims how to appear to be moral without actually doing so, since those teachings only take place within the perverted Ummah. Morality is universal by defnition. You are the uneducated one, AM, judging from your inability to punctuate at a 3rd-grade level. And you want to talk about "projection bias?" You're the one who ignores and denies 98% of the Hadith, 61% of the Koran, and the entire Sunna of the inbred, slave-owning, polygamous, narcissistic, perverted, pedophilic, genocidal, hypocritical, egomaniacal non-prophet (since he produced neither prophecy nor miracles and messed up every single historical and scientific statement he ever made on the record) Muhammad, who mutilated corpses "to delight the believers," which you will no doubt also deny.

Posted by: jdamn at November 14, 2008 1:47 PM

And it was the Islamic Organization of North Texas who and your purchased Sharia sex slave you worked for.

Posted by: jdamn at November 14, 2008 1:51 PM

Association, not organization. My bad. I had 2 windows open.

Posted by: jdamn at November 14, 2008 1:54 PM

The thing is, and I got this from Cornelius I think, that Abdullah wants to distract us from the post in question.

In this case, "offensive to Muslims" is being used to stop a man from visiting his son's grave.

This is OFFENSIVE TO ME!

No one, in a free society has a right NOT to be offended. (Besides, it seems that a free society itself offends Muslims, as does just about everything else.

So, screw em if they can't take it. We need to offend more and more and more. In fact, a fleet of cars festooned with offensive stickers should show up at the cemetery, full of passengers wearing Muhammad cartoon shirts, Anti-Sharia slogans, etc etc.

The more they get offended, the more we should offend!

Really, who gives a crap what they think?

Freedom of speech is a precious right, and it's hanging by a thread here - in America of all places!

Posted by: Mo Foe at November 14, 2008 2:16 PM

Abdullah,

You claim that "My faith and understanding of Islam is from core texts and not twisted outside opinions."

So, you must be all for waging jihad until only Islam is around, huh?

Or do you have any refutations for the "Muslims should wage jihad" post?

Posted by: Mo Foe at November 14, 2008 2:19 PM

AM...Believe whatever you want, you may understand your own "faith" but you do not understand Islam.

The final cop out of the cop out king...

The mind reader...

I understand Islam only too well, your supreme majesty... you may stick your fingers into your childish ears and scream otherwise, but it changes nothing...you are an outright fraud...

Here's why, among other inconsistencies...

duh swami,
AM...Believe whatever you want, you may understand your own "faith" but you do not understand Islam.

AM: Well, I am a Muslim, and you are not. I study to find the truth,

You accuse me of not 'understanding' Islam, while you admit to your 'study to find truth', which by definition means you do not yourself have the truth...That is fraud...claiming to possess something you do not...By the way...just what is my 'faith'?

Your testimony is worthless...you by your own admission are 'truth less'...you are a light weight who talks a lot, nothing more...

Bye bye Abdullah any further conversation is pointless...

Truth

Duh swami

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 2:23 PM

I love your new "Truth", duh_swami, right on!

Posted by: champ at November 14, 2008 2:44 PM

Abdullah,

"TYPE ERROR: feel free to spin it you will anyway : )"

Sometimes an error is just an error. It would be unfair and unwarranted to spin your error by hurling allegations such as these:

"I think your Freaudian slip more honestly painted you with your true colors:"

"Yeah, I guess in your heart of hearts we know what you intended even if you weren't cognizant."

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 2:46 PM

I love your new "Truth", duh_swami, right on!

Posted by: champ

I'm going to stop helping Abdullah hljack the threads and waste band width.

He gets way too much attention...There are important issues to deal with, and he is not one of them...

I trust you are having a good day... :)

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 2:56 PM

Shade,

You write:

"...I do not believe that most free speech laws should apply on base. We would not allow protesters to protest on base."

The military bases should allow enough free expression to be able to name the enemy with the names the enemy itself uses, names which contain the word "Islam."

Islamic sharia blasphemy laws or PCMC soft totalitarianism viz. Islam should not apply on or off base.

"Also since they did not ban him from base only his vehicle none of his rights were really violated."

This would be like banning Muslims from bringing the Quran, or saying the shahada, or bowing toward Saudi Arabia, on base. (All of those things are offensive to many non-Muslim Americans). Would you be willing to say that none of Muslims' rights would be violated if they were not allowed to bring, say, or do those things on base?

"We do not want civil goverment telling us what can and cannot happen on base. I'm sure that the base duty officer would be more than happy to take him to see his son's grave."

This isn't about making the duty officer happy or comfortable. This is about a veteran being able to express himself on his own vehicle as he sees fit and to visit his son's grave on base without being harassed by those who are trying to impose Islamic sharia restrictions on expression.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 3:10 PM

Kinana,

I don't believe this is an example fo Islamic Sharia Blasphemy Laws. I would expect that if someone tried to bring a vehicle on base that had a cross with a line through it or the star of David it would have gotten the same treatment.

I also don't think it is the same as banning the Islam on base. That is a freedom of religon issue not a freedom of speech one. When we join the military we basically give up our Constitutional rights. Our freedom of religon is the only one that remains completely intact.

But even though I have freedom to practice Islam in the military I would never pray right in the middle of my office where my co-workers are. It is very important for any military unit to respect each others beliefs.

Posted by: Shade at November 14, 2008 3:26 PM

It is very important for any military unit to respect each others beliefs. from above

Is it important when the beliefs are to kill Christians?

Posted by: gymgal at November 14, 2008 3:31 PM

Gymgal,

I'll give an example. I am in a supervisor position. I would never prevent a subordinate who is a Christian from attending his religous services. Just as my co-workers respect the fact that I pray five times a day.

Posted by: Shade at November 14, 2008 3:39 PM

RE: Relinquishing some constitutional rights while in the US military

It's true that some first amendment rights are significantly affected by membership in the military. However, there is every indication that the driver's son was the victim; that the driver was older and likely ex military. In that case, there is far less limitation on his freedom of speech. In either case, this is not justifiable.

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at November 14, 2008 3:50 PM

Kinana of Khaybar

Gotta give the devil his due...you did spin that rather well abd riposte even as you posed like you weren't doing it.

: )

Peace

Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 3:51 PM

I'm going to stop helping Abdullah hljack the threads and waste band width.
He gets way too much attention...There are important issues to deal with, and he is not one of them...
I trust you are having a good day... :)
Posted by: duh_swami

I agree. Put AbbyDullard on the ignore list. And duh-swami, it's a great day. The weekend is just around the corner and pork spare ribs are on sale. I am feeling the need to offend muslim sensibilities again with pork meat and alcohol.

Beer

Richard

Posted by: Richard at November 14, 2008 3:51 PM

Kafir,

Even though he is retired I would imagine he was using his retired ID to come on base. Even if he is a civilian now he must obey all rules while on base. Once again he would not be allowed to protest on base would he?

Posted by: Shade at November 14, 2008 3:53 PM

Shade,

"I would expect that if someone tried to bring a vehicle on base that had a cross with a line through it or the star of David it would have gotten the same treatment."

The U.S. is not at war with people who call themselves Christians or Jews. Christians and Jews are not fighting the U.S. in the name of promoting their ideology.

The Quran contains more than a mere prohibition of non-Muslim religions, but goes further to order warfare against, subjugation of, and segregation from non-Muslims. This goes way beyond a circle with a line through it.

A key problem here is that Islam is, for some Muslims, more than a religion. It is a system of laws and politics, and includes policies of warfare. It is difficult to fit Islam into the category "religion," so the attempt to bring Islam under the freedom of religion umbrella is problematic.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 3:56 PM

Okay Duh, we’ll play your game.

“Even if you choose not to choose you have still made a choice.”

Even having no belief, choosing to believe in nothing, you have still chosen to believe something. (Take time to reflect now…)

“The mind reader...” Wow, you have taken this in a mature direction…

“I understand ….you are an outright fraud...”

“Here's why, among other inconsistencies...”

You would see the pursuit of truth as an inconsistency, wouldn’t you?

“You accuse me of not 'understanding' Islam,”

No, you provide plenty of evidence of this, I am just pointing it out, chum.

{And here is the richest drivel I have ever seen shoveled here at JW}

“while you admit to your 'study to find truth', which by definition means you do not yourself have the truth...That is fraud...claiming to possess something you do not...By the way...just what is my 'faith'?”

Okay, let’s back up the wagon a bit so Duh can catch up…a pursuit of something is not something, it is the pursuit of something…wow, you made a stunning realization there.

Are you with me, Duh?

Okay, a student who pursues a degree is pursuing something…eventually he finds it…still there Duh?

Gooood…

Now by your childish spin on a process, Einstein never discovered anything, did he? He was only in the pursuit of discovery…wow, I must say, this new world of Duh-isms is almost as weak as “W-isms”

“… any further conversation is pointless...”

Duh, coming from you this is a blessing…you have realized your own self worth, and now you have decided to remain happily silent.

Peace of Mind with the Truth I find.

Abdullah Mikail

P.S. You weren’t by any chance a speech writer for Donald Rumsfeld with his famous “Known unknowns” speech, were you?

I didn't think so...

Had to ask…now run along… : )

P.S.S. Think of a bugg zapper...yeah, you'll be entertaining me some more...

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 4:08 PM

Kiana,

I understand your position but I disagree. We are not at war with Islam we at war with Al-Qaeda. Perhaps you heard General Gate's speech the other day? I did not here the whole thing but he was addamint about this point.

When it comes to warfare outlined in the Quran we see concepts relating to our own policies. Even if ordered to I would never kill an innocent civilian of any religion. This is expressly forbidden both in the Quran and is in contrast with our military rules and regs.

Just because Islam has rules and laws certainly does not automatically disqualifie it from it's religion status. All religions have rules and laws to be followed.

Posted by: Shade at November 14, 2008 4:08 PM

It's true that some first amendment rights are significantly affected by membership in the military. However, there is every indication that the driver's son was the victim; that the driver was older and likely ex military. In that case, there is far less limitation on his freedom of speech. In either case, this is not justifiable.
Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever

It is surprising how many people will comment without reading the story.

"However, there is every indication that the driver's son was the victim"
His youngest son, Marc, was one of the seventeen sailors killed in the terrorist bombing of the U.S.S. Cole in October of 2000.
I guess this would be and indication?

"[...]that the driver was older and likely ex military."
Jesse Nieto, a 25-year Marine veteran, served two combat tours in Vietnam.
I suppose after two combat tours and becoming a veteran it is likely he's ex military. And a father is certainly going to be older than his son, at least his biological son.

"In that case, there is far less limitation on his freedom of speech. In either case, this is not justifiable."
I think what the Senior Chief failed to explain is that, as a Military Retiree, we are still subject to the UCMJ.
Posted by: BigRobT

I'm a civilian, I've been on a military base. It was clearly not a place to screw around. Not with speech, not with political statements, and not by driving over the posted speed limit. A military base is not a public place. No civilian is compelled to enter a base and certain rights are not afforded on base. Sorry, freedom of speech is one.

Posted by: Richard at November 14, 2008 4:14 PM

Richard,

Very well put.

Posted by: Shade at November 14, 2008 4:27 PM

Mo Foe,

I am not trying to distract anyone.

If you note I said the sticker didn't offend me at all. That symbol has nothing to do with Islam.

We should be hating the Zionist Terrorists who blew it up the USS Libery. We should all wear bloody blue stars of David on black arm bands saying, "34 died, Zionists denied!"

It took a torpedo boat and an Israeli Jet to kill our sailors. Why do we consider them allies?

Or shouldn't we be hating the French more since they sent two Exocet Missiles through the hull of the USS Stark and killed 40 of our sailors?

Come to think of it, I have never liked the French...you are right, we should plaster offensive stickers all over everything about anything we don't like!

Whatever

Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 4:37 PM

AM,

That is some of the only truth I've seen you post. The French suck.

Beer

Richard

Posted by: Richard at November 14, 2008 4:40 PM

I trust you are having a good day... :)

Posted by: duh_swami

Yes, thank you! :-)

Posted by: champ at November 14, 2008 4:42 PM

Richard,

Freedom of speech and the free and open exchange of ideas...this is what we are about here...so you are entitled to disbelieve anything I cannot prove.

The French suck Beer.?

I thought they just sucked... : )

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 4:43 PM

Kinana,

Did you write this with a straight face?

"Jews are not fighting the U.S. in the name of pomoting their ideology."

The Zionists most certainly did (and still do) employ terrorism against everyone and anyone up to and including Jews in support of their "ideology"

Truth

Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 4:49 PM

"The French suck"

Yes they do -- and even though I'm part French, I am not the least bit offended by that comment -- because in many ways it's true.

Learn from my example, AM, because part of facing the Truth about Islam lies in seeing it for what it really is.

Posted by: champ at November 14, 2008 4:50 PM

champ,

I am well studied on my faith, thank you. I understand it quite well.

You on the other hand do not...especially if JW is your classroom.

Other than that, you should learn from my example...the sticker didn't offend me...it's just a sticker.

Peace

Abdullah Mikail

P.S. I don't really think the French suck...just the pilot who "pulled the trigger".

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 4:56 PM

Shade,

“I understand your position but I disagree. We are not at war with Islam we at war with Al-Qaeda. Perhaps you heard General Gate's speech the other day? I did not here the whole thing but he was addamint about this point.”

I agree that the U.S. and its allies are not literally at war with Islam as a whole. We are at war with groups calling themselves Islamic. We are at war with more than al-Qaeda. Surely you will agree that we are also literally at war with the Taliban, and even indirectly and unofficially with Iran, which is supplying Shia militias in Iraq and Taliban in Afghanistan. Saudis were also aiding the Sunni groups in Iraq. Then there is Iran’s involvement in supporting Hamas and Hizballah. The “Taliban” and “al-Qaeda” are now sufficiently large, diffuse, and interconnected with other militant Islamic groups that the lines of distinction between these groups are fuzzy.

“When it comes to warfare outlined in the Quran we see concepts relating to our own policies. Even if ordered to I would never kill an innocent civilian of any religion. This is expressly forbidden both in the Quran and is in contrast with our military rules and regs.”

While the Quran does include policies of self-defence, it does contain policies that go further than that, e.g., 9:29, which involves offensive warfare in the name of religion in order to establish Islamic rule including the subjugation and the imposition of the jizya on non-Muslims (specifically People of the Book). Also, in the Hadith, Muhammad says he was commanded to fight the people until they accept Islam, and Umar states how the companions were commanded to do the same. these policies are expressed in Islamic laws regarding jihad.

“Just because Islam has rules and laws certainly does not automatically disqualifie it from it's religion status. All religions have rules and laws to be followed.”

I’m not saying that Islam isn’t a religion. Of course it is. The classification is difficult or problematic in the modern western context because Islam is more than a religion, and mainstream Islam still contains laws that are contrary to western laws and which have not yet been rejected (e.g., legislation of jihad, apostasy and blasphemy penalties, etc.). These political and legal aspects would not or at least should not be protected under the freedom of religion umbrella.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 4:57 PM

Kinana,

9:29 was a limited action order involving only the precincts of Mecca and only a single action for a specified time frame.

A “sweep and clear” all hostiles that do not surrender and or evacuate order…and on top of that they were give a four month moratorium to leave or surrender and if they stayed that was an indication that they were in an open state of war and no quarter would be given.

End of order. Sorry Charley, this does not say what you think it does.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 5:15 PM

Richard,

Of course people should follow rules on military bases. The issue being contested in court is whether or not this particular rule about display of "offensive" slogans is appropriate.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 5:26 PM

"Even though he is retired I would imagine he was using his retired ID to come on base. Even if he is a civilian now he must obey all rules while on base. Once again he would not be allowed to protest on base would he?"

-Posted above

I don't suppose the same military police at the Cemetery prevented those with Obama (or McCain) stickers on their vehicles from parking there and visiting the graves of loved ones. I am also sure several vehicles with "terrorist huntin' permit" stickers (which can be seen here: http://www.stickergiant.com/Federal-Terrorist-Hunting-Permit_xrg729.html) have gone by without a fight. Just what exactly is the difference?

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at November 14, 2008 5:29 PM

Why is recruitment so low? All you can fight for in today's military is a college loan. If you want to fight for anything else, you are out of here.

Posted by: Old Atlantic at November 14, 2008 5:30 PM

AM...Yada yada yada, babble babble babble...I'm definitely impressed...Enough to give you the Levin salute...'Get off the phone ya big dope'.

Ok that's enough wasted band width...I won't respond further...On to better things...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 5:32 PM

Maybe the constant uninterrupted study for the truth has dulled someone's instincts. Maybe looking up once in a while to get a sense of realily, in real time, one might recognize thrteen hundred years of cobwebs.
Until "Unmodern Men in the Modern World" (Mazarr)do that, we can expect nothing in terms of dialogue other than violence.
In the interim I've been thinking of marketing a new aerosol: "Bacon Blitz".

Posted by: Shawmut at November 14, 2008 5:40 PM

Duh,

Just as I said ou'd be back...remember the bug zapper?

Peace

Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 5:41 PM

Mo Foe,

Still confused I see?

"You claim that "My faith and understanding of Islam is from core texts and not twisted outside opinions."

No one is attacking or invading my home, no one is attacking my neighbors regardless of their faith I am charged with protecting them...so in light of these two facts, why are you confused that I should be "waging jihad" against anyone?

My home is safe and my neighbors are safe and very well protected, thank you.

"Or do you have any refutations for the "Muslims should wage jihad" post?"

I do believe that was it above.

Peace

Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 5:53 PM

Abdullah,

9:29 is widely regarded as being in relation to the context of the expedition to Tabuk; it is not at all confined to Mecca and has not been regarded as historically circumscribed. The jihad and dhimma policies in Islamic law and applied throughout most of Islamic history are based significantly on this verse and its application by Muhammad and the companions. Readers who have doubts about Abdullah's reading of 9:29 can check out Spencer's Blogging the Quran, Dec 3 and 10, 2007.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 6:04 PM

Oh goody, another episode of the Abdullah/Mike Show except that it's always the same one:

"I-feel-like-shit-because-I-did-something-before-I-became-a-Muslim-and-I-can't-face-it-so-I'll-argue-with-you-to-the-death".

Isn't there some paint drying somewhere that needs watching?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 14, 2008 6:08 PM

Kinana,

I would like to address your question about Quran 9:29.

Do you think that it is a "blank check" given to Muslims to go on doing whatever they want for ever in attacking other people simply because they don’t believe?

That to which you refer must have context, or you destroy meaning.

This verse was revealed as a response to treachery from the Pagan Quraysh who violated a peace treaty with the Muslims by way of mass murdering a group of unarmed Muslims, who were unarmed due to the treaty.

After this gross violation of the treaty between the Muslims and the Pagan Quraysh, the order came down then, and with the mercy and consideration of God in that He gave the treacherous Pagan Quraysh a four month warning given in 9:2 in order to allow them to evacuate Mecca or make peace, and that after which those Pagan Quraysh remaining who were murderous traitors would be given no quarter.

This is not a license to attack anyone a Muslim wants at any time in history.

It was a just directive from God in response to a very specific issue of treachery at a specific time and place, i.e. the treachery of Pagan Quraysh.

Yusuf Ali Translation of meaning of Quran
Surat A Taubah Chapter 9

9:1 A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

9:2 Go ye, then, for four months, backwards and forwards, (as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate God (by your falsehood) but that God will cover with shame those who reject Him.

9:3 And an announcement from God and His Apostle, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that God and His Apostle dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate God. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith.

9:4 (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for God loveth the righteous.

9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:6 If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

9:7 How can there be a league, before God and His Apostle, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for God doth love the righteous.

9:8 How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.

9:9 The Signs of God have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.

9:10 In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.

9:11 But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.

9:12 But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.

9:13 Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Apostle, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!

9:14 Fight them, and God will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,

9:15 And still the indignation of their hearts. For God will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and God is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

9:16 Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though God did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except God, His Apostle, and the (community of) Believers? But God is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do.

9:17 It is not for such as join gods with God, to visit or maintain the mosques of God while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.

9:18 The mosques of God shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in God and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except God. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

9:19 Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in God and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of God? They are not comparable in
the sight of God: and God guides not those who do wrong.

9:20 Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in God's cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of God: they are the people who will achieve (salvation).

9:21 Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:

9:22 They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in God's presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).

9:23 O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong.

9:24 Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than God, or His Apostle, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until God brings about His decision: and God guides not the rebellious.

9:25 Assuredly God did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunain: Behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat.

9:26 But God did pour His calm on the Apostle and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith.

9:27 Again will God, after this, turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:28 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will God enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for God is All-knowing, All-wise.

9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

END OF EXCERPT

How is it you misunderstand this?

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 14, 2008 6:11 PM

This is indicitive of just how badly the French suck.

http://www.police.govt.nz/operation/wharf/

The sinking of The Rainbow Warrior, a ship of U.S. flag, by the French military in Aukland in 1985 should have been treated as an act of war and should have prosecuted as such.

The French are listed among countries actively probing the U.S. with industrial espionage.

The French total lack of support for our endeavors in the middle east, including refusing to let us use their airspace during Operation Iraqi Freedom is another symptom.

Fining Bardot for hate speech.

Yeah, I'd like freedom fries with that.

Beer
Richard

Posted by: Richard at November 14, 2008 6:19 PM

Abdullah,

Re 9:29, the issue is not whether I understand or misunderstand it. Citing a long string of verses does not necessarily provide the relevant context because the verses are not always in chronological order, and topics can change abruptly from one verse to the next. The issue concerns what mainstream Islamic scholarship says about this Quranic verse in light of the available alleged historical circumstances, derived from the Hadith and Sira. Pieces of information from those sources about the alleged historical circumstances are assembled in Asbab al-Nuzul, which aims to provide the circumstances of the revelation. All of these sources and others are drawn upon in deriving Islamic jurisprudence. Jihad and dhimma policies based in part on 9:29 have been applied throughout much of Islamic history and are regarded as applicable up until the return of Jesus who (according to ahadith) will, as part of the end times scenario, abolish the jizya and rule according to the Quran.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 6:49 PM

"9:29 Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

This verse only serves to reveal that Muhammad was as a money-grubbing-thug. What, didn't he like the 9-2-5 routine, so he stole from others instead? Apparently so. Thanks for the lesson, AM.

Posted by: champ at November 14, 2008 7:00 PM

Robert
Too bad when you have articles like this one you didn't have a link to send an email to whatevr agency we can lodge a protest with, military, Congress, etc.
This whole thing sickens me!!!

Posted by: eaglecap at November 14, 2008 7:04 PM

Kinana,
Sharia is the goverments interpertation of the laws of Allah(swt). For example take the killing of homosexuals. No where is this mentioned in Quran, and the only hadith supporting it is weak. A goverments decison for doing this is not based on Sharia and is not accepted by mainstream scholars.

There is no such thing as a Sharia goverment. They may be based on it, but no modern goverment uses this system. And scholarly it is not required of Muslims to impose this style of goverment on peoples. America is considered dar-al Islam because here we are able to freely practice our religon without oppression.

The rules of Sharia must be used to govern ourselves.

Posted by: Shade at November 14, 2008 7:08 PM

Abdullah;

It is my understanding that Sura#9 is generally accepted as the last Sura. It is also my understanding that only the classical Arab language of the Koran is considered valid by Muslims. All other translations, even modern Arab, are considered commentaries. If this true how can a non claasical-Arab reader follow the Koran?

Also, under the theory of abrogation, Sura#9 would abrogate any other Sura containing language in conflict with Sura#9. Are my assumptions correct? Thank you.

I appreciate your keeping this highly contentious debate on a civil, rational basis.

Posted by: demolay at November 14, 2008 7:40 PM

Shade,

While in your interpretation you may regard Islam as a personal belief system or code which you do not impose on others, many other Muslims disagree with this.

On the homosexuality issue specifically, 61% of British Muslims say that homosexuality should be illegal. About 61% of American Muslims think homosexuality should be discouraged (though they were not asked whether or not it should be legal).

In some of the largest Muslim countries, about 71% of Muslims want a strict application of sharia law in every Muslim country.

The Quran does mention homosexuality but does not explicitly tells Muslims to enact a punishment. The Quran does however provide penalties, including the death penalty, to those who spread mischief/corruption--a broad category that includes numerous kinds of sin-crimes.

You write:

"There is no such thing as a Sharia goverment. They may be based on it, but no modern goverment uses this system."

In general usage, sharia does refer to Islamic law and government. When one says "sharia," that's what people think you mean, unless you specify otherwise, in which case you may be referring to your own personalized interpretation.

"And scholarly it is not required of Muslims to impose this style of goverment on peoples."

That's debatable at the very least. The Quran mentions that Allah establishes with some people or leaders (Khaliphs) power in the land; it commands that believers must judge by that which Allah has revealed; it states that all mankind must permit what Muhammad permits and forbid what he forbids; it states that Islam has been perfected and made lawful; to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah; if Allah did not use one set of people to check others the world would be full of mischief/corruption; Allah brought down "iron" for various uses including implementation of justice; and the Quran does give specific Islamic legal rulings which Muslims are expected to impose on others, such as cutting the hand of the thief, etc. Of course, 9:29 does command warfare, subjugation, and extraction of the jizya.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 14, 2008 7:48 PM

I can also name 11 verses in the Quran that say their is no compulsion. Some of the reason these verses get taken out of context or get a bad rap is the tafir that accompanies the Quran. This commentary is considered the lowest type of scholarly study because it is based on nothing more than opinon as is abrogation.

Of course 61% of muslims in America believe it should be discouraged. I'd wager that Catholics and Christians in general would have similiar numbers.

Wow we have really derailed this thread.

In relation to the story my heart goes out to this man and the shipmate that we lost. My God grant him some peace.

Posted by: Shade at November 14, 2008 8:06 PM

From above: Wow we have really derailed this thread...

No, not really. Abdullah the quasi apostate who knows all, and see's all, derailed it. Just like he has derailed, or attempted to derail, every thread he appears on.

This thread no longer belongs to JW, Abdullah has turned it into the Abdullah show.

He will continue to hijack threads if it is allowed. If Robert won't ban him, the rest of the regular posters should ignore him...Let him ghost talk until he gets tired of it...Maybe he will dry up and blow away...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 9:14 PM

Re: Peaceful verses" in the Quran

Robert has written about the relatively few peaceful -- largely Meccan, verses extensively. They should be considered in light of the doctrine of Nashk (abrogation). Numerous discussions can be found on this topic if one only searches Jihadwatch. I found a particular favorite from a couple years ago here: http://jihadwatch.org/archives/013367.php

Posted by: Kafir Nonbeliever at November 14, 2008 9:33 PM

Duh Swami, my love, do you notice that there is something wrong with Abdullah/Mike? He reminds me of a lion with a thorn in his paw. He is clearly not happy, nor is he peaceful, which is why I wonder what it is that is eating him. He contributes nothing to the threads but bile, doesn't ever win a point, except in his own head. He seems deeply troubled to me, and suffers from displacement, as when he goes after Robert for no apparent reason.

I think there is a deep ocean of guilt there. He obviously is well spoken American born man so what would make him embrace Islam unless he felt he had no place else to turn? A smart guy from Texas would not need Islam. There must be a grudge, a gripe or perhaps some form of blackmail going on here. Shade sounds much more content in his religion than Abdullah/Mike does.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 14, 2008 9:42 PM

This commentary is considered the lowest type of scholarly study because it is based on nothing more than opinon as is abrogation.
from above

Shade my man, don't be dissin' on abrogation. Readers of Robert's books know that there is a solid foundation for the concept of abrogation right in Islam's sacred texts, the Koran foremost.

Beer
Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, in fact
Richard

Posted by: Richard at November 14, 2008 10:03 PM

Richard,

I love it. 'Can't drink beer because of a medical problem but if I could...

Blue Moon

Isabella

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 14, 2008 10:19 PM

Isabellathecrusader...Swami, my love, do you notice that there is something wrong with Abdullah/Mike?

Not only do I notice it, I am planning to write an book about it. A short one, a very short one.
Probably no more than two words.

Well, one if you take out the 'F' word...

What shall that word be?

Maybe I should run a contest as who can come up with the one word that best describes Abdullah.

No prizes, just the knowledge of a job well done...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 10:37 PM

Oh my gosh, I've written that book before myself.

I remember when I was a junior in high school at a Catholic school and I had a ceramics class with some of the most obnoxious jocks. Well, this one guy that I'll call Frank was no longer a jock, just had played a little football Freshman year but that set off his popularity which lasted the entire four years, although I cannot tell you why. Anyway, one day in class, I was sitting in my chair sideways, waiting for the teacher to show up, facing the back of Frank's head while he talked to another jock. I was minding my own business when Frank turned around and said something really nasty to me, which I cannot recall, but I remember looking him square in the eye and firmly saying, "Fuck You". Well, I don't think he was expecting that and the football player behind him looked at me, and then Frank and said, "Whoa". You know what? Frank never bothered me again.

I'm sure Abdullah/Mike has read that book before though. Maybe you should right the sequel. ; )

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 14, 2008 10:52 PM

AAHhhhhhh! That's "write" the sequel. After 10:30pm my homonyms and antonyms get really sloppy.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 14, 2008 10:54 PM

Not only do I notice it, I am planning to write an book about it.
I don't care who you are, that is friggin' funnier than hell d_s.

One word...I love it!

I'm thinking

Crap, dreck is already taken.

I'll have to ring in later with that.

Posted by: Richard at November 14, 2008 10:57 PM

Only one word? Hmmm...that's a toughie. Well if you take out F---, then...

Oh I know. How about "Ewe". Short, sweet and totally applicable to the earlier conversation. LOL!

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 14, 2008 11:27 PM

Here's Abdullah's problem: low self-esteem. Nobody converts to Islam in the West unless they have some huge psychic hole to fill, particularly when they're not convicted criminals looking to justify some aberrant behavior. Islam gives him supremacy. People with no self-worth have to set up a dynamic whereby they are better than others. With Islam you don't have to be particularly brilliant, funny, good-looking, worthwhile, a good provider for one's children, a good husband, a good employee, or even a good citizen. Look at Perv Mo. He was the most subhuman person in the history of time, and yet he gets to be a "prophet." You just have to go through a million OCD rituals and curse everyone who isn't Muslim and voila`: you're better than 80% of the world. Then you can set yourslf up as more Muslim than other Muslims, as more learned in Islam, as more pious, or whatever. You can hate Shi'ites or Sunnis or less devout Muslims. The running theme in everything he says is this: I am better than you. It's never about the argument because he starts mini-arguments and then abandons them when they are refuted, but then he always starts another one with someone else. So he gets to play it both ways. He's Muslim, so he's better than us. He has his own interpretation of Islam which is better than everybody else's, so he's better than other Muslims too. He feels the need to constantly remind us of how we don't understand Islam, like it's so flippin' complicated. Submission and duality. Cruelty and backasswardness. Imperialism and supremacy. The end. His own selective understanding of Islam is what makes him better than others in his mind. That's why he never shuts up about it. That's what he hates about Robert: that Robert has Islam's number down pat. So Abdullah nit-picks everything he writes, looking for tiny flaws. He never finds anything but he wants to be that guy who actually refutes something Robert writes. If he were smart he would undertake Sina's challenge and win $50,000, but Ali Sina doesn't have the same authority as Robert because he isn't a scholar and he isn't as prolific, at least in book form. He also simply can't deny who Muhammad was. Islam appeals to those who have no self-worth. It's degrading and yet empowering in that it gives believers a deluded sense of supremacy. They're all like that. It's just more pronounced in some. Some are obsessive about it. Islam also appeals to the obsessive and type. And the controlling type. And liars, and criminals, and so on. But they all have low self-esteem or they wouldn't buy into an ideology that tells them that their existence is worthless, that they're just Allah's inconsequential pawns whose fates are predetermined, so the world would be the same with or without them. And it exploits that because no matter who you are, as long as you're a Muslim you get to be better than someone else.

I have to disagree with, but not totally disregard, the notion (Isabella's, I believe) that he may have done something horrible that he's trying to compensate for or repress. Christianity would be better for that because you get to be forgiven and it's all about redemption. Plus my father fought in Vietnam and it's obvious that he saw and did horrible things because he just glazes over if anyone brings it up. I only learned a couple of months ago that he's a 4-time war hero because my stepmother framed all his medals. She's big on framing things. He never talks about it and it's obvious that Vietnam messed him up. If he does talk about it, it's usually some offhand remark like the time he told me that during his tour of duty, unless his life was directly in danger, he was counting off the seconds until he got to go home. But he came home and finished college, then married my mother, went to law school, put her through law school, and had my sister and myself. He had an amazing career and retired honorably. He's incredibly successful. The point of this whole paragraph is that my father has every reason to believe that he's better than 99.9% of the people in this world because he actually is in a million ways, but it would never occur to him to think like that. Unfortunately for me, I will never find a guy as amazing as my dad, so I'm screwed in the romance department. He's as humble as they come and its not in his nature to put people down, and I didn't get my argumentative streak from him either (that's Italian). Supremacy isn't a symptom of PTSD or guilt. It's not a veteran thing. It comes from low self-esteem. It's an odd paradox because it comes from the need to justify one's existence, but when people find supremacy in Islam, they're finding it in an ideology that makes it crystal that their existence is, in fact, completely pointless.

That's my theory.

Posted by: jdamn at November 14, 2008 11:40 PM

Jdam...That description was a 'little bit' more than one word, but it will do just fine... :)

Posted by: duh_swami at November 14, 2008 11:58 PM

Or, an alternative theory: Isabella's right and he does have some aberrant behavior he's trying to justify, most likely related to women. He never touches the misogyny question. When I said in the other thread the other day that Islamic scripture only obligates women to cover their crotch and their chest, he blasted back by saying that women's entire bodies are vaginas and that was why the sharia dictates about "modesty" are what they are. So he obviously has issues with women, who considers obscene or evil or something, or he would have formulated some alternative belief about that too. It's not a coincidence that he married an Asian woman, either. They are more likely to have been raised to have zero self-worth and to consider themselves subhuman, therefore they are subservient and well, Islamic in that they are essentially undead corpses to be raped. Not all Asian women, obviously, but that was the impression I got of her watching American Ramadan. Maybe he's a pedophile. Either way he doesn't want a real woman with a backbone and he has issues with women. My two theories aren't mutually exclusive either.

Posted by: jdamn at November 15, 2008 12:03 AM

I don't agree, JDamn. Low self esteem is too easy with which to dismiss Abdullah/Mike. His is a tortured soul. He comes back here, over and over again to face our abuse, like a moth to the flame. If he really had such low self esteem he would not come here and get his clock cleaned every day. He is trying to purge himself of something that he can't get rid of.

No, I think he has a monkey on his back and perhaps, something to prove. I believe the sin he has committed has something to do with destroying someone's life. I don't know what it is exactly...it may have something to do with hurting a woman, it might have to do with facilitating an abortion, I don't know, but it is something big and something that he thinks he cannot be forgiven for.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 15, 2008 12:06 AM

jdamn - you're awesome. Now quit knocking asian women (I think there's a double entendre in there but I won't touch it - ooh, a triple entendre!)

We now have 3 levels of muslim on JW.

Abdullah - nut job
Dave - wants to debate when he's not unhinged
Shade - serves our country, a little taqiyya around the edges - have we found a 'modrate' Muslim?

Oh yes, then there's Defender.

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 12:13 AM

I don't think he's a pedophile. From the things he says I think he's done something to a woman.

Abdullah/Mike, you can get over this and be forgiven. You don't have to be enslaved by this. And you can get away from Islam. I don't believe for a moment that it gives you one ounce of the satisfaction that you seek. And the fact that your Christian name is Michael, well, I don't think it is a coincidence that your mama named you after the most powerful saint who threw Satan out of heaven. I'm going to pray for you, that you find the peace that surpasses all understanding.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 15, 2008 12:15 AM

modrate?, I know better, really I do

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 12:16 AM

Well as a convert to Islam of course he reached bottom somewhere, that's why I converted. It has nothing to do with wanting to hurt people. My best efforts had gotten me no where so I turned my life over to Allah(swt). That has brought me peace and inshallah Abdullah will get the same. I would say anybody who truly embraces any religon probably hit rock bottom first.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 12:22 AM

Link to the sticker and more.
http://shop.cafepress.com/we-died-they-rejoiced

Posted by: Nader at November 15, 2008 12:24 AM

http://shop.cafepress.com/we-died-they-rejoiced

Posted by: Nader at November 15, 2008 12:25 AM

Link to the sticker and more
http://shop.cafepress.com/we-died-they-rejoiced

Posted by: Nader at November 15, 2008 12:26 AM

No Shade, that's not true of everyone. I was fortunate to be born Catholic and while I've had some interesting times in my life I've never given up Christ. He's always there waiting for me.

I am interested in what it is that Allah gives you that you didn't find anywhere else.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 15, 2008 12:27 AM

Isabella,

Well do you think that your trials and tribulations made your relationship with Jesus stronger? That was my point. Islam is just the religon that made sense to me.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 12:38 AM

Shade, there are places other than Islam to turn when one hits rock bottom. It has nothing to do with wanting to hurt people for converts who embraced Islam without learning about it first. At its core Islam is about subjugating the infidel, by violence my friend. That means hurting people. Folks who get converted into scientology never get the full story during their indoctrination either. You were at a low point in your life and got snared by a cult. You can get out.

I'm an athiest, the kind Robert crums on, and I'll still tell you to give Jesus a chance. If you believe in a benevolent God then you're not a true Muslim. Allah is a fiction and a terribly evil being in that fiction. Get back to God, the one I can't quite find faith in.

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 12:39 AM

Well Shade, yes, the tribulations helped me to get closer to Christ. But I am attracted to Him because He is so wonderful. I realized a while ago that He never lies, that if He makes me a promise, He always keeps it. I never have to doubt because He always, always comes through. And He let's me choose. He doesn't say to me, if you change your mind you can't leave; if you leave I will kill you. He allows me to be here of my own free will and promises that I may have that freedom for my whole life. I understand that if I leave I will be lost but He doesn't force me to stay. I do so of my own freewill, because He is the delight of my heart. As a woman he also trusts me to be good and I try to repay that trust by being so.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 15, 2008 12:59 AM

Shade: It has nothing to do with wanting to hurt people. My best efforts had gotten me no where so I turned my life over to Allah(swt)...

Prior to turning your life over to Allah, did you know and consider the demands made on Mohammadans by Allah?

Did you know that being in the military is contrary to giving your life to Allah? As you are probably aware military life is a lot like slavery. Since you can't serve two masters, who do you serve? The US military or Allah?

'My best efforts had gotten me no where...'

That reminds me of a line from a song...'I tried so hard, and in the end it really didn't matter'.

That's where you are going with Islam, to an end that really doesn't matter.

You should apostate and save yourself from Allah.

He is already aware of your violations.

And He's never happy with violators...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 1:03 AM

Thank you all for your conern, but I am very happy as a Muslim. Although I was at a low point I was not at the very bottom. I do not have low self esteem. I am white, muslim, republican, and serving in the military. Islam does not kill people for leaving. Misinformed Muslims do. I do believe Islam is the truth. But I respect your beliefs.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 1:05 AM

Abdullah,

In my 5 seconds of research, according to Wikipedia (their slogan should be "we're not ALWAYS wrong!" :-) :

The USS Stark was struck by exocet missiles launched from an IRAQI jet.

So, hate the French all you want, but don't hate them for that; hate the Iraqis.

And you didn't exactly refute the "Why should Muslims wage jihad" citations, not even close, really.

As I've said before, everywhere Islam is dominant people are repressed and killed, and economies go into decline. If it was so awesome and true, why would this be?

You haven't really disproven any of the following:

-Muhammad did some really terrible, evil things
-Islam teaches war on the unbeliever

In fact, I could go further; Muhammad was a rapist, a thief, a murderer, and a greedy pedophile.

Islam is at the heart of horrendous acts of violence and slaughter throughout the millenia, and, on balance, has brought more misery than joy, and more regression than progress.

Islam has everything to do with terrorism; Muhammad was the first terrorist--his own scripture says he was made victorious "thru terror."

Posted by: Mo Foe at November 15, 2008 1:08 AM

I don't understand Shade. Doesn't Mohammad say in the Qu'ran, "whoever leaves his religion, kill him"?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 15, 2008 1:17 AM

Shade: I do believe Islam is the truth...

And just exactly what is that truth?

All of it? Every word of the Quran and traditions of Mohammad? Even dumb stuff like the world is flat?

Do you believe as Mohammad, that flies have poison on one wing and an antidote on the other, so it's ok to dip a fly in your drink.

Does Satan go up your nose at night?

How about Paradise, and jihad, and all those yummy virgins, do you believe that is the truth?

Careful now, don't insult the Prophet...

Truth...Yep lots of it, and every bit bad news...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 1:19 AM

duh,
Sorry I just read all your post. I do not feel Islam is contrary to me serving in the military. And there are about 8,000 of us that feel the same. I have seen the number quoted as high as 15,000, but I will be conservative. And all these people have families who support them.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 1:23 AM

duh,
Following the 5 pillars and 6 articles of faith is Islam everything else is conjecture.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 1:26 AM

Shade, you didn't answer my question from 1:17am.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 15, 2008 1:31 AM

Shade:Islam does not kill people for leaving.

I suggest you take a closer look. There's a lot more than just what's below.

A book published in the United States, Reliance of the Traveller: A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law, is a translation of 'Umdat al-salik by Ibn Naqib (died 1368 A.D.). This Shari’ah legal manual explicitly presents the punishment for Muslim who leaves Islam. It states that, if a sane person leaves Islam voluntarily, the person is to be killed by the proper Islamic authority. However, if someone kills an apostate on his own, the killer does not face the capital punishment, because he has killed someone who deserves to die.

Shade: Following the 5 pillars and 6 articles of faith is Islam everything else is conjecture.

You and the other 8000 are in grievous error.
Numbers don't make you right...

You are in the kufr military, fighting against mohammadans, and sometimes others.

Show me in the Quran or Sunnah or Sira, or those 5 pillars and 6 articles, where it is just peachy keen fine with Allah, if his Moahmmadans serve in a kufr military, who's goal in part is to kill muslims...

You are skating on thin ice...be careful, Allah is watching...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 1:43 AM

Isabelle,

This is what the Quran says.

If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.}* (Yunus 10:99-100)

{Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject [it]: for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a dwelling (resting place)!"}* (Al-Kahf 18:29)

{Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 1:43 AM

Shade,

Do you believe in the separation of church (mosque if you'd rather) and state?

Does your religion? If no, how do you reconcile the two?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 15, 2008 1:47 AM

The ruling that an apostate should be killed is not based on the Quran. Scholars base it on ahadith. Basically it plays out like this. Say you live in a Muslim country who's laws are based on Islam. Well when you decided to stop being Muslim you rejected the Constitution and now are punished for treason. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that is how the ruling is reached.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 1:48 AM

No, I've read it before and it clearly states that Mohammad said that apostates are to be killed. This was in the later verses that abrogated the earlier more peaceful ones.

So are you saying that as a Muslim you are not obligated to follow what Mohammad, the perfect man, said?

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 15, 2008 1:52 AM

Baddala deenahu, faqtuluhu (if anyone changes his religion, kill him) Bukhari vol. 9, bk. 84, no. 57)

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 15, 2008 1:56 AM

Say you live in a Muslim country who's laws are based on Islam. Well when you decided to stop being Muslim you rejected the Constitution and now are punished for treason.

Now boy, I say boy, don't even go and compare the Koran to the Constitution. Now that's treason.
/Foghorn Leghorn off

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 1:57 AM

Shade: The ruling that an apostate should be killed is not based on the Quran. Scholars base it on ahadith.

That may be the case, but all four schools of Islamic Jurisprudence agree, and so do many serious
scholars. I can quote some if necessary. At any rate, Quranic or not, the death penalty for apostasy exists. Iran is passing just that kind of legislation. Any secular government with a Mohammadan population can adopt this policy, whenever they want. Because it is authorized by Shariah. An Islamic republic will most certainly adopt it.

I'm still waiting for the confirmation from scripture that it's ok for you to serve in a kuffar
military and kill muslims...How about that???

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 1:59 AM

duh,

The numbers do matter. Inshallah someday we will be the majority. That is how we make progress. Also about the kufr military thing. I don't feel we are fighting muslims. I do not consider terrorist muslims. Also as I mentioned earlier America is considered dar-al Islam.

Concerned,

I believe that a seperation of religon and state is acceptable. The beautiful thing about America is that it is not a democracy, but a limited republic. This is to prevent one group or religon from gaining all the power because even if the majority wanted a law passed if it went against the Constitution it would not be passed. Unless there is a constitutional admendment like we saw in Cali. This makes us a religously free country. And I think it works.

Have you ever possed this question to an evangelical Christian? They are very involved politically.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 2:00 AM

Shade,

The response is appreciated, but I believe you only answered half. Is separation of mosque and state consistent with Islam?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 15, 2008 2:05 AM

'Sorry, but America is most certainly NOT dar-al Islam. And Jesus Christ willing, you will never be the majority.

Well, guys, it's tomorrow. I'm hitting the sack.

Nighty-night. ; )

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 15, 2008 2:07 AM

BTW, I am an evangelical Christian, and I think that separation of church and state is not only "acceptable", but a necessity. Every experiment of state sponsored religion has ultimately ended in abject failure -- religious failure.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 15, 2008 2:08 AM

Shade: The numbers do matter. Inshallah someday we will be the majority.

You just gave away your loyalty, it is not to the military in which you serve, or to the country you are sworn to protect.

You are a jihadist.

You have no business in the US military because you have no loyalty, except to your growing numbers, so that someday you and Allah, can take over.

I would not trust you with a weapon...Or turn my back if in close proximity, you may have an Allahgasm at any moment and fire off your gun.

Gad, they let anyone in now days...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 2:13 AM

The thread was about bumper stickers. Now it's about trying to proselytize Shade. I love this place.

Shade, have you read any of Robert's books? I see your mind is made up the other way, but he presents so much information objectively - if you haven't, you should read him. Grab The Truth About Muhammad.

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 2:14 AM

http://www.icgt.org/SpecialArticles/MuslimsInMilitary.htm

Here you go. It is old and I believe the scholar may have developed a new one.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 2:15 AM

Inshallah someday we will be the majority.
Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 2:00 AM

And that's exactly when this misguided convert crashed and burned. 2:00 AM.

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 2:21 AM

Inshallah someday we will be the majority.
Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 2:00 AM

And that's exactly when this misguided convert crashed and burned. 2:00 AM.

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 2:22 AM

If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed, all who are on earth! Wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.}*

Justification for the extortion of jizya. Muhammad was pretty brilliant, politically. He understood that, like all imperialist, fascist ideologies, no Muslim society could ever sustain itself, and with nobody to parasitize it necessarily cannibalizes. Think about all those Islamic paradises and how they can only survive on our aid. Think about how Muslims can never seem to come toether for any larger purpose. They can't even build a decent piece of consumer electronic, let alone effectively sustain a nation. Think back on all of Islamic history. Even the Soviet Union proves my point.

Say, "The truth is from your Lord": Let him who will believe, and let him who will, reject [it]: for the wrong doers We have prepared a Fire whose (smoke and flames), like the walls and roof of a tent, will hem them in: if they implore relief they will be granted water like melted brass, that will scald their faces, how dreadful the drink! How uncomfortable a dwelling (resting place)!"}*

First, "say" is because Mo would drift back and forth between 3rd- and 1st-person like a true narcissist. That's not in the Arabic. It proves that the Koran is not from God. Wouldn't God be more articulate if it were? Maybe have some concept of science, history, and logic? Maybe not confuse Mary with Miriam and Jesus with Esau? Certainly Gabriel would have gotten it right too. Second, you know that you're wrong about abrogation. You're kidding yourself. And again, the primitive threat of hellfire. What is this alleged "truth" that nobody can seem to articulate? And the alternative to this hellfire? A big brothel full of mtilated, undead corpses to rape. No good books or music, no conversations with Lincoln and Winston Churchill. No greater happiness, just sins of the flesh, that which we should rise above in death if we believe in an afterlife. Doesn't it all seem a little too, well, worldly to be divine? Think about all the acrobatics you have to do just to justify Islam to yourself and others. You know that it's wrong. You know that Muhammad is a monster. You've read the Hadith and the Sunna, right?

{Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:256)

That applies to Jews and Christians who are have jizya extorted from them. See above. Try to look a little deeper, Shade. There is no deeper. If you want truth and you want enlightenment, look for a real religion. Or better yet, look for yourself first. Humanism is a fabulous ideology. Christianity, Judaism, Buddhist, humanism, they're all based upon true morality, and the Judeo-Christian tradition upon honest, hard work as well. That's where the "truth" is. It's not in plundering, looting, killing, raping, enslaving, humiliating, or doing anything to anyone that you wouldn't want done to yourself. It's the Golden Rule: morality and ethics. The Judeo-Christian tradition doesn't have the monopoly on it, but Islam denies it. That's pure evil. It's inherently unethical. Being a good person will set you free. You seem like a nice guy. I'm not accusing you of being a bad person, but Islam is a slippery slope because it rewards the most horrible actions and frowns upon hard work and individual accomplishment, which is how one becomes and remains true to oneself, one's family, and one's country. It's ultimately how we make this world better than when we entered it. You are not a cog in a machine whose fate is predestined. You are an individual with the power to bring about positive change in this world whose existence is as important as you decide that it is. You're doing a great job by serving your country and I admire you for it. You're better than Islam. Islam doesn't appreciate your better qualities. Good people, however, do.

Posted by: jdamn at November 15, 2008 2:22 AM

Shade...Some friendly advice...When dealing with Allah, it is best to not put all your eggs into the basket of one particular scholar.

How complicated can it be? Allah wrote a clear book, with clear directions as to how he wanted his Muslims to behave. Mohammad provides the examples.

There is simply nothing in the Quran that supports you killing other muslims on behalf of kufrs,
or serving in the army of unbelievers.

God how Allah hates a liar, especially a Mohammadan liar...

Your trying to slip out of the noose you yourself made, is not impressing Allah, who is aware of what he wrote.

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 2:26 AM

duh,
I have served my country faithfully for many years. You don't have to trust me I will continue to put on my uniform everyday anyways. As for the numbers thing what I meant was that a more moderate approach is taken by muslims and that the majority would have no problem serving and dying for this great country. Oh no you called me the dirty "J" word.

Richard,
To be honest I can appreciate everyones views. I mean have you ever had someone question your atheism? Did you feel attacked? Honestly I have not read Robert nor do I intend to, but oddly enough for the most part this is the only place on the internet I could find to have a rational disscussion with non-muslims. I wish someone would start an online forum were we could talk. Then we wouldn't have to worry about derailing the thread. Anybody out there know how to do that? Same thing I said to Duh I did not mean the majortity in the military.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 2:26 AM

You are not a cog in a machine whose fate is predestined.

What she said. Dude, just step off the Islam bus and watch it drive off into the sunset. The alternative is to lose yourself into the cult you've joined. Just step away from it, it's not good.

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 2:33 AM

Shade,

It is true that the Quran does not contain a verse that specifically orders Muslims to kill apostates for merely apostatizing publicly from Islam. However, the Quran is not as specific and detailed as the Hadith. For example, the Quran does not mention the five daily prayers (it mentions prayers, but not specifically five). One must go to the Hadith to find the five daily prayers.

Is the command to kill apostates, found in the Hadith, contrary to the Quran? There are enough verses that command the killing of disbelievers--and apostates are disbelievers--that those who wish to kill apostates could always find some justification. Some of the people to be fought in 9:5, 9:12, and 9:123 were regarded as apostates and hypocrites. While some disbelievers may be protected through treaties, etc., the Quran does specifically state that apostates will have no protectors on earth (9:73-74). They are not eligible for the dhimma protection implied by 9:29. Hence, after the death of Muhammad, when some tribes that had previously accepted Islam refused to pay zakat, they were deemed to have apostatized and the first rightly-guided Caliph Abu Bakr waged war on them.

Posted by: Kinana of Khaybar at November 15, 2008 2:34 AM

I alright ya'll I'm calling it quits for the night. If I didn't answer any questions I apologize, but this debate will continue until the end of time. I would like to encourage everybody to say a little prayer for this father. Although I'm sure most of you have already.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 2:37 AM

If you ignore the Quran, you are an apostate. You can try to make up your own version of Islam, but Allah see's that.

Your stint in a kufr military, possibly killing other Mohammadans, won't be judged by me...You should be that lucky. Allah is a much harder taskmaster...It is him you will have to face and 'splain' your behavior...Good luck with that, his breath is a blow torch...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 2:38 AM

Shade,

Sure people attack athiesm. Religion - It involves a logical argument about proving something with no evidence. If people say there is little evidence that Jesus or Muhammad existed, there is less evidence that a god exists. It's an argument that can't be won. Not about Islam, not about God. That's why it's called faith. It can't be called logic or reason. It's faith.

I feel a bit sorry for people who spend so much of their being clinging to medieval fairy tails we call religion. But the Judeo/Christian ethic was developed as a natural evolution of culture over several thousand years and Mo cooked up Islam in about half a career. Give me a break. I may be athiest but I was raised Christian and I subscribe to the ethic. Islam was basically Muhammad's pyrimid scheme. He should have been selling Amway.

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 2:43 AM

Richard,
It's going to sound silly but your the first aethist that really explained why he disbelivied I usually just get a shrug and a "because" just like religous people give when asked why they belive.

Concerned,
Just saw your post from awhile back. Yes I believe in seperation of church and state. I did not mean to imply that you didn't I was genuinely curious of the answer.

Okay really last post. Thanks everybody.

Posted by: Shade at November 15, 2008 2:50 AM

Good night Shade, may Allah watch over you while you sleep...scary...

Shade refused to answer my challenges about Mohammadans serving in a kufr military that kills Muslims...

I don't blame him really, Allah reads Jihad Watch...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 3:05 AM

basically Muhammad's pyrimid scheme. He should have been selling Amway.

Richard...lay off those funny pills, I can't take it...lol

Posted by: duh_swami at November 15, 2008 3:10 AM

Abdullah,

You wrote, "That symbol [on the sticker] has nothing to do with Islam."

Could you explain this? I guess I "misunderstand" because I thought the crescent and star were the symbols of Islam, just as the cross is the symbol of Christianity.

I think it's the moon in Islam, because Allah comes from a pagan moon-god, but maybe that's just me.

Actually, I prefer the tao symbol. It's not to do with death or pagan idols...

Posted by: Mo Foe at November 15, 2008 10:43 AM

The Major was on the local news this morning trying to cover his ass. The turd comes across as a smarmy turd not unlike many of the horrrible senior officers I had the displeasure of knowing while I was in The Marine Corps. I hope these guys get taken down, seriously. You people really have no unearthly idea how selfishly corrupt the Officers Corps attached to the Marines have become.(not unlike leeches) They'd make Ken Lay, Fannie Freddie, aig and all the others combined look like nice chariable guys. Yes there are a few decent people in the officers corps but that orginization is inherently terrible corrupt as a whole and imho a threat to national security.

Posted by: AllahSnackbar at November 15, 2008 10:49 AM

on second thought maybe the clown was a ltcol, wasn't looking at his colar too close.

Posted by: AllahSnackbar at November 15, 2008 10:51 AM

I'm with S Perry on this:
I thought the military was supposed to be tougher than this. It appears they need some insensitivity training.

It's not just the military that needs some insensitivity training, our whole society does.
But we're running as fast as we can in the other direction. We seem to be trapped in global sensitivity and diversity class; one from which Muslims have been excused to attend the self esteem class.

Telling the truth will always offend people unfortunately.

Yep.

When does the objectivity class begin?

Posted by: RalphInfidel at November 15, 2008 11:09 AM

I sort of took a class in objectivity. It was actually a morality class in high school. I'm eternally grateful for it because none of us who took it can ever be suckered or guilted into any stupid ideology. I see people converting to Islam and voting for Obama and I wish they had taken the same class. Morality and ethics are really incredibly simple, and yet people still lose all objectivity and get suckered into believing that Islam is moral and capitalism is selfish. Like sharing you pb&j in kindergarten is really like Marxism. Marxism is the cold, steely hand of Big Brother coming down and snatching your pb&j away from you and giving it to parasites. Capitalism is eating your pb&j and then having enough energy to go out and spread the wealth by buying more pb&js. It's Joe the Plumber buying goods from local vendors and hiring people and going out to dinner in a local restaurant. That's how wealth is spread. And those who say that Islam is a scientific faith are simply crazy. Science holds up to objective thinking. Granted, Judeo-Christian dogma and the way that Judaism and Christianity are practiced differ quite a bit. Imagine if Jews stoned adulterers and sacrificed animals, or if Christians actually turned the other cheek (no Crusades!). What a barbaric world we would be. Because we became more moral, more civilized, and more objective over time we prospered. I see our objectivity slipping away and it really scares me. People like Shade ar the ones who are truly on the fence. He's still leadig a moral life but he's in a cult that rewards evil. He can either ditch the cult or go down that evil Muhammadan road. America is going down that road. Europe has long since done so, and in doing so, lost all sense of itself. Richard, your argument for atheism made perfect sense. I can't refute it. But I agree with the Pope that when we lose our Judeo-Christian roots we open the floodgates of evil and we lose ourselves, our best quaities as a society. It's your belief in the ethic and your self-identification as Judeo-Christian atheist (lie Oriana Fallaci, who said "I'm an atheist, thank God!") that makes you who you are. If we lose that, well, we become the Soviet Union, or worse, Albania. It's scary. The whole point of this post is that I'm eternally grateful for having been educated in objectivity and for having had Judeo-Christian dogma, the really important parts - the morality, presented to me in a logical, scientific way. The fact that our society is so dead-set against Judeo-Christian dogma being taught to kids is nothing short of frightening.

Posted by: jdamn at November 15, 2008 11:33 AM

"or shouldn't we be hating the French more since they sent two Exocet Missiles through the hull of the USS Stark and killed 40 of our sailors"

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail

The French did not attack the USS Stark, Iraqi jets did (although they used French made jets and missiles)....Prior to this attack, the US Navy had be monitoring the Iraq/Iran conflict...and between Iran and Iraq the two Muslim countries had attacked over 200 ships..(just not American ships)...another interesting tidbit is that there were F15 jets in the air From Saudi Arabia...Saudi Arabia promptly refused to take any action...(as a sad afternote..what did the US do?....sell Saudia Arabia more jets , of course)...The Americans had detected the Iraqi jet when it was over 200 miles away, but elected not to arm their weapons...(I would hope this policy of ineptitude has been corrected). Subsequently , the ships commander was forced to retire...

Posted by: pulsar182 at November 15, 2008 12:01 PM

Jdamn,

Judeo-Christian atheist , I guess that’s about right.

To folks who say a non-religious person can’t be a moral and ethical person I say bullshit. Of course then they go off and pray for my soul – LOL.

Personally I see a great moral center in the ten commandments and the teachings of Jesus. I just can’t buy into the invisible guy upstairs, immaculate conception, angels, basically the fairy tail part.

For a great spokesman for freethinking, read the writings and speeches of Robert Ingersoll.

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 12:26 PM

See, I should have capitalized Ten Commandments, that's what skipping Sunday school will do :)

Posted by: Richard at November 15, 2008 12:29 PM

jdamn wrote:
It's your belief in the ethic and your self-identification as Judeo-Christian atheist ... that makes you who you are. If we lose that, well, we become the Soviet Union, or worse, Albania. It's scary. The whole point of this post is that I'm eternally grateful for having been educated in objectivity and for having had Judeo-Christian dogma, the really important parts - the morality, presented to me in a logical, scientific way.
The fact that our society is so dead-set against Judeo-Christian dogma being taught to kids is nothing short of frightening.

Richard wrote:
Judeo-Christian atheist , I guess that’s about right.
To folks who say a non-religious person can’t be a moral and ethical person I say bullshit. Of course then they go off and pray for my soul – LOL.
Personally I see a great moral center in the ten commandments and the teachings of Jesus. I just can’t buy into the invisible guy upstairs, immaculate conception, angels, basically the fairy tail part.

I agree. Regardless of what one thinks are the inadequacies of faith in supernatural beings or some ethereal heaven and hell, blind faith in government and charismatic leaders at the expense of principles has a clear record of establishing hell on earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbv_3Q7YL1M

Posted by: RalphInfidel at November 16, 2008 10:32 AM

“That's my theory.”
Posted by: jdamn at November 14, 2008 11:40 PM

Now that made for some rich creative writing, your take on how you feel and your projection upon someone you have never met.

My take on your take?

Projection bias.

Snce you yourself have such low elf esteem, you cannot reconcile another human being not being like you, not worshipping like you, but in fact a person who has rejected what you believe, whatever that is, by the mere fact that they believe in God and choose to be Muslim.

Projection bias as noted in your script:

“Christianity would be better for that because you get to be forgiven and it's all about redemption.”

“Unfortunately for me, I will never find a guy as amazing as my dad, so I'm screwed in the romance department.”

Oh, and this is rich:

“So Abdullah nit-picks everything he writes, looking for tiny flaws.” (in Roberts work)

He doesn’t even understand the prohibition against alcohol…considering it nothing to be ignorant of that. And yet alcohol is identified as “the mother of all evils.”

The point I am making in pointing out Robert’s lack of scholarship is he allows others to laud him as an “Islamic Scholar” when he is far and away less well educated than some of the most humble common believers I know.

No, Robert is not a scholar of anything Islamic. Yes, he is selling little screamers that make him money, and he markets them here and elsewhere…it is a high pressure sales technique: make the client feel “ear” put them in “ain”, inform them that you have the “solution”: i.e. “Just buy my latest book, I’ll tell you all about it and how to solve your dilemma.”

Don’t try to explain why someone else decides something…it only shows your cards for how you actually feel about yourself.

Peace of Mind
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 16, 2008 11:42 AM

Shade,

e-mail me at challengingreddyneck@yahoo.com

There are more of we Muslim military veterans and active duty service members than anyone on this board realizes.

And brother, you don't ever need to feel like you hit rock bottom...Allah SWT guided you and chose you no matter what you felt about yourself in life when He opened your eyes.

Don't let the people here confuse you or misdirect your heart...they themselves do not understand anything about Islam, only the drive by "scholarship" that feeds their Islamophobia.

I myself always believed and did not "convert" from any other path of error.

I always believed in the sovereignity and absolute majesty of God, and not what the people who blogg here believe in, outside perhaps of some of those of Judaism, who also belive in Tawheed, albeit they did not follow through and believe in the last Prophet.

Looking forward to your e-mail.

Peace
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 16, 2008 11:48 AM

Abdullah,

Ever going to respond to my post?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 11:53 AM

Also, while we have Shade and Abdullah here participating in a Military Muslim love-fest, maybe one of them could answer the question, Is separation of church/mosque and state compatible with Islam. You know, we get such a biased view here from the uneducated Spencer, we just don't know what to think on such matters. Show us your great wisdom and knowledge, oh humble common believers.

While you're at that, maybe you can explain why you like to pretend that none of the eggregious acts of your coreligionists are EVER relevant to your personal practice, none of your responsibility, and seemingly, neither burdensome or of passing interest to you. We've been through hundreds of Muslim posters here, and they NEVER seem to post on the threads about Islamist atrocities, oppression of Christians, etc. But always on the threads where Islam is slighted, or where they can spin on the latest Muslim charity prosecution, etc. Why so?

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 12:03 PM

"No, Robert is not a scholar of anything Islamic."

Leaving aside that for the most part, Robert merely reports what Islamists say about Islam, validating how that coincides with Islamic texts, what exactly do you require in form of credentials of your nebulous Islamic scholars? When we provide acknowledged Islamic scholars works, even current ones, in quotation, you discount them. It seems as though your definition of "scholar" of Islam is more akin to the definition most would use for the term "sycophant". It seems mostly that you merely detest problematic Islamic texts being paraded in their nakedness for public infidel inspection, though many of you are known to enjoy the supremacy ideology and chauvanism of those same texts in private.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 12:25 PM

P.S. Gotta call you on this:

He doesn’t even understand the prohibition against alcohol…considering it nothing to be ignorant of that. And yet alcohol is identified as “the mother of all evils.”

Provide a reference when you smear someone, please.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 12:33 PM

I hope you are not referring to this thread

http://jihadwatch.org/archives/023269.php

because if so, that is a pathetic vehicle to malign someone in the manner you did. You maligned yourself, however, on the same thread:

Cornelius,

Do you believe in the killing of those who openly leave Islam? I already answered this one. No.

Do you believe that lapidation is an appropriate punishment for adultery? It is a deterrent.

Do you believe in amputating the limbs of thieves? It is a deterrent.

Do you believe that slavery should be legal in Darul Islam? There is no such thing as "Darul Islam." Properly rephrase the question.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at October 28, 2008 9:25 PM http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023269.php#c591496

Here you reveal yourself as a liar regarding the treatment of apostates as prescribed in Sahih Bukhari, reveal yourself as a brutal Shariah protagonist, and as someone who chooses to evasively mince words on weighty subjects.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 1:18 PM

I always believed in the sovereignity ... of God

Which is precisely why the establishment clause is in our constitution. Obviously, people can believe whatever they choose as long as they don't expect others to indulge their fantasies and turn them into public policy. A literal interpretation of any authoritarian, supremacist dogma, whether from Mohammad, Hitler, or Marx will be resisted by every means necessary.

Christians have proved strong and flexible enough to survive the constant analytical and ethical bombardment their faith receives in the West. If Muslims can find the strength to consider the relatively scant criticism Islam receives, and fight to reshape Islam into a personal religion, it will survive too. If they don't, one can only expect resistance to Islam to keep growing.

Posted by: RalphInfidel at November 16, 2008 2:07 PM

"I always believed in the sovereignity and absolute majesty of God, and not what the people who blogg here believe in, outside perhaps of some of those of Judaism, who also belive in Tawheed"

A.M. means "Allah" here, not the Jewish-Christian deity known as Yahweh. The two are nothing alike.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 2:19 PM

Notice how A.M. chooses to berate Robert not only for
a) reporting the Islamic text antecedants of "radical" Islamist ideology, but also, for
b) reporting the Islamic apologetics by which "moderate" Muslims (which A.M. finds offensively and insufficiently observant) justify their ability to integrate.

Thus, in effect, A.M. attempts to duplicitously chide Robert for being both too fundamental, and too liberal, simultaneously. He cannot have it both ways.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 2:27 PM

"Don’t try to explain why someone else decides something…it only shows your cards for how you actually feel about yourself."

Starting to hit the nerve.

Death & destruction,

Isabella

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 16, 2008 3:12 PM

test

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 16, 2008 8:25 PM

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 12:33 PM

This is a way old argument and old news...filters are preventing me from reposting it.

Truth
Abdullah Mikail

Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 16, 2008 8:28 PM

Naw, Abdullah/Mike, you have a lot of anger and misplaced covert hostility. You know that Robert is an Islamic scholar and I think you resent him and try to diminish him in our eyes because he simply blows a hole in your carefully crafted cover. But no matter what you say about him he's still a happy guy. And you're not. And if you were content with yourself you wouldn't come here and punish yourself over and over again.

No, JDamn isn't projecting anything on you. You torture yourself for your own specific reasons. We here simply watch you do it.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 16, 2008 10:31 PM

Abdullah=ignore list

Posted by: Richard at November 16, 2008 11:31 PM

Mikail:

You are deluded. "allah" is Satan and muhammad was his demon messenger.
St. Michael the Archangel fights Satan ("allah");
may he guide you on the path to the true God, Yahweh.

Posted by: CGW at November 17, 2008 4:57 AM