Meanwhile the Somalian Muslim kidnapping "elders" were dropping their trousers round their ankles immediately after alerting the foreign press that the nuns were safe.

Posted by: leon at November 16, 2008 12:44 AM

These women were seized from KENYAN SOVEREIGN TERRITORY.

That is: a raiding party of Muslim jihadis from a Muslim entity - one can hardly call Somalia a 'state' as such - *crossed the borders* of a neighbouring non-Muslim state, a state which is majority Christian and animist, and kidnapped people who were visitors to, and guests of, that other, non-Muslim state.

Isn't that sort of action normally cause for war on the part of the party whose sovereignty has been violated and whose guests have been snatched?

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at November 16, 2008 1:11 AM

Perhaps our President-Elect and Raila Odinga could negotiate their safe return.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 16, 2008 3:27 AM

well safe could be that they are still breathing but are they still virgins giving how muslims seem to lust after veginswho are not muslim

Posted by: crusader stonghold at November 16, 2008 3:51 AM

I'm glad you said it dumbledoresarmy, and no, nothing will be done, I suspect. I am worried for the nuns and their being violated as it seems part of jihad to humilitate people...and the silence from moderate Muslims, globally is still deafening.

Posted by: snufkin at November 16, 2008 4:50 AM

... by scores of attackers who stormed the small town of El Wak, firing wildly and launching a rocket...

Moslems, you gotta love 'em. They are so vivacious and vigorous and enthusiastic in their work.

* 2:216 * 4:74 * 9:111 * 8:12 * 4:96 * 56:22 * 38:51 * 55:56 * 55:76 * 56:22 * 8:74 * 9:2 *

The battle cry of the Companions of Mohammed that night was "Kill! Kill! Kill!"
-- Tabari VIII:141

As the great Marxist leader Dr. Howard Dean once screamed, Yeehaaah!

Posted by: 33:21 at November 16, 2008 6:50 AM

President-elect Barack Obama, THIS is what you will have to deal with. Kenya is the land of your father. Where is Odinga now?

If Kenya will not guarantee the safety of NUNS, then why is any aid worker ever going there again?
That headline was just such a ... well, I don't know what to call it.

Kidnapped NUNS.

Posted by: PMK at November 16, 2008 7:17 AM

The reason the Nun was killed because of the Popes remarks was, 'guilt by association'.

But GBA is bigger than just the Pope or these nuns.

All kufrs are guilty of 'guilt by association', by virtue of being kufr. The word, I understand, means 'filthy'. So a filthy kufr is twice the filth.

All kufrs are guilty of warring with Allah. Some are just a little more guilty than others.

It is the duty of the 'pure' Mohammadan to clean Allah's house (Earth) of filth.

Since all kufrs are guilty, all kufrs are subject to Allah's 'black flag' poison, and his broom and dustpan.

'Fight them (kufrs) until all worship Allah...'

Have you prayed to Allah today? If not, look out...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 16, 2008 10:03 AM

Somalia's nutcase Islamists are not reknowned for their stealthy diplomacy before lobbing off heads so they have been declaring war on Kenya for quite a while now.

The region of Northern Kenya where the nuns were kidnapped is mainly ethnically Somali and 100% Muslim so easy terrirtory for them to blend in and even get some local support perhaps(although mercifully most Kenyan Muslims are still easy-going, America-loving lot).

But I got a feeling the Nuns were not captured by the most virulent strand of the crazies ie Al-Shabab but probably by criminals who may be looking to `sell' the nuns to the highest bidder..

Kenya should really be attacking South Somalia but it is so weakened by venal corruption they will probably be beaten by the Islamists who could then march all the way to Nairobi!

Posted by: Gorgi at November 16, 2008 10:39 AM

What is the purpose of this blog/website? At first I thought it was just some right-wingers talking about "them crazy Muhammadans" etc, but the analysis is so distorted and bad that I'm wondering if this is a joke website? I'm sorry my sense of humor maybe is not good.

Fine, take the nuns in Somalia. Completely left out of the article and any discussion is any background to events in Somalia. Part of the relevant history is that the (Christian) United States supported the (largely Christian) Ethiopia in kicking out the Muslim leaders in Dec. 2006. Since then they've been occupying parts of Somalia, and engaging in brutal killings as well (go to any news archive to check it out), nothing compared to anything the Islamists have been doing there. So if you find a couple poor, dumb punks whose families have no doubt been horribly affected by this naked aggression (from largely Christian countries) against their country, who kidnap a couple nuns, is that surprising? NO.

It is clear that this website adds nothing substantive to any debate on these serious issues, which leads me to think it is some kind of sick joke. Can somebody please help me here?

Posted by: jasonrfruit at November 16, 2008 10:58 AM

In case it wasn't clear from my comment above, it is the Ethiopians, backed by the U.S. who have been engaging in these brutal killings... the U.S. has actively supported and helped Ethiopia in their forays into and occupation of parts of Somalia, sending Somalia in a decisive turn for the worst, with the situation there being called worse than Darfur by some analysts.

But why don't we talk about Somalia? Well, already 2 occupations going on, who has patience for trying to find out about a third? Also if we talked about Somalia, we would quickly discover America'a ugly role in sending Somalia from crisis to disaster.

Posted by: jasonrfruit at November 16, 2008 11:05 AM

jasonfruit

Nothing justifies kidnapping a couple of unarmed elderly nuns helping some of the poorest people in the world.

There are times when there are right and wrong: no relativism; no contex no BS. Good and Bad absolutism. This is one such case.

Posted by: Gorgi at November 16, 2008 11:12 AM

From above: Nothing justifies kidnapping a couple of unarmed elderly nuns helping some of the poorest people in the world.

Nothing??

Then why were they kidnapped?

Someone obviously felt it was justified...Probably those Mohammadans again.

Their idea of justification is different than the kufr world...

Posted by: duh_swami at November 16, 2008 12:14 PM

"Can somebody please help me here?"

Posted by: jasonrfruit

Sure. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.

Posted by: Abscedere at November 16, 2008 1:12 PM

The fact that no ransom demand has been made, as of yet, doesn't bode well for the nuns.

By the way, there are nuns (widows, and maybe some divorcees, with a peppering of unwed mothers) who have children and grandchildren. One need not be a virgin, to become a nun. One must only vow to be chaste from the day of the vow, forward.

Posted by: Abscedere at November 16, 2008 1:18 PM

Its more Islamic country + nuns = Bad mixture

Posted by: spanaker at November 16, 2008 1:34 PM

Its more like Islamic country + nuns = Bad mixture

Posted by: spanaker at November 16, 2008 1:34 PM

It is clear that this website adds nothing substantive to any debate on these serious issues, which leads me to think it is some kind of sick joke. Can somebody please help me here?

Yeah, take this advice: crack a goddamned book, it won't kill ya, and I guarantee doing so won't put warts on your palms.

I suggest you read the Koran, best to use a commented version. Then the sacralized Islamic histories (Tabari, Ishaq). Then maybe some contemporary books. Legacy of Jihad by Bostom would be good.

* 2:61 * 2:64 * 2:96 * 4:41 * 4:47 * 4:55 * 4:160 * 5:13 * 5:41 * 5:59 * 17:7 * 59:2 * 88:1 *

Right now you're not a serious person. Work on that. Learn how to educate yourself and think critically, dumbass.

Posted by: 33:21 at November 16, 2008 3:41 PM

Read 'Infidel.' Learn about how Somalis are. And then do some research on how any Ethiopian aggresion is the result of Muslim genocide and if anything far too restrained. Now they're moving it to Kenya while simultaneously claiming to be enslaved by Kenyans in order to fraudulently receive asylum in the US in order to wage jihad here.

Posted by: jdamn at November 16, 2008 4:37 PM

Gorgi-

Sorry I didn't reply to your response earlier. Apparently (at least today) I had better things to do than check on the status of this funny website.

You write in response to me: "Nothing justifies kidnapping a couple of unarmed elderly nuns helping some of the poorest people in the world."

Had you seriously taken 1.5 minutes to read what I had to say, you would find no justification for this from me. I referred to the kidnappers as "poor, dumb punks", and only commented that if we consider history, we would not be SURPRISED by such an outcome.

The challenge, for you, me, Robert Spencer, and these young dumb Somali kidnapping punks is to rise above our personal situations to find the common humanity that we all share.

This website shows a blatant disregard for our common humanity, such a blatant disregard that I still seriously suspect its just a sick joke perpetrated by Robert Spencer. Since I suspect that is the case, I greatly admire Robert. What a slick career move, especially for a JH Newman scholar! Prey on American fears of jihad... most people don't have the patience to read/listen to serious scholars talk about these issues anyway... make a sensation, and you'll sell stuff. Robert Spencer, I suspect, is a marketing GENIUS.

Posted by: jasonrfruit at November 16, 2008 9:50 PM

Jasonrfruit, Your sense of humor is an indication of your lack of knowledge. I, for one , have been reading jihadwatch for three years now. I began to educate myself on the world vs. islamic jihad immediately after 9/11. You are misguided in your thinking about common humanity. It is not we nor Robert who have disregard . It is the jihadists who indiscriminately murder, kidnap, rape and mutilate innocent people in the name of Allah. Now when you have some empirical evidence that the jihadists are willing to rise above their personal situations and find common humanity with us kafirs then you might be listened to. Otherwise you really contribute nothing.

Posted by: imamerican at November 16, 2008 10:16 PM

Dear 33:21

Delightful to hear from you. Yes, I have cracked open a book or two in my ripe old age of 25. Currently a grad. student in political science so I've actually done that on non-consecutive occasions.

I've lived in the Middle East for several years. Learned Arabic, can read the Qur'an reasonably well with the help of my trusted Hans Wier Dictionary. So yes, I've read those verses, in the original, so please don't worry. (P.S. Person who recommended "Infidel" - thanks for the laugh). Yes, I've also read Tabari, Ishaq et al, though I read them in English not Arabic because I read slow in Arabic - sorry.

One word of advice to you Sir 33:21: CONTEXT.

Now I know what you're going to say: something along the lines of "context! you relativist! there is good and bad! objectively! ahhhhh!!!! them crazy muhammadans, them towel-heads, they want kill!!! ahhhhh!!!". And I wouldn't totally disagree with you.

But look, if we're just looking for little quotes out of context, then yeah, you find yours in the Quran, some ignorant atheist will find his in the bible... yadda yadda yadda we can go like this forever at the lowest of all levels of debate.

What is essential is to look at history, learn from history, look at all the complex factors that go into a situation to help determine the outcome, and insodoing to increase our own real understanding of a given situation. Have a little humility, please Sir 33:21, realize that the world is complex, that our country has done things to people, other countries, that are bad, and that we can't fully and properly relate to. Please realize that a living, vibrant, complex and diverse religion truly cannot be grasped in the simple-minded way you are trying to do so.

Your last line to me was: "Right now you're not a serious person. Work on that. Learn how to educate yourself and think critically, dumbass."

Now that's just pathetic. I know there are many things I don't know, but I have gone in earnest to try to find these things out, including going to new countries, and learning a new language, in pursuit of the truth. Though again, I am a mortal and there are many things I don't know, I feel fully capable of having a serious and proper discussion with you on all these issues, talk to me about anything you want, in english or arabic, just don't come at me swearing and with this kind of attitude. Really, its pathetic, and the discerning reader can see that.

If you are interested, kind sir, please first look up some sayings of the Prophet Muhammad on humility. Muslim and Bukhari are of course standard, so you might want to check that out. I personally have riadh is-saliheen in a beautiful english-arabic version, so you might find that helpful as well - this compilation is, as you know, arranged thematically, so you will find these sayings all in the same section.

Posted by: jasonrfruit at November 16, 2008 10:30 PM

Ladies and gentlemen

over the past couple of weeks I think there has been a major escalation in activity - on certain threads, not all - by openly or subtly hostile Muslim (or Muslim pretending-to-be-something-else) posters.

To all new visitors who are *not* Muslim...I advise you that in any thread where openly hostile - or apparently plaintively reasonable - Muslim posters are particularly active, you should pay very careful attention to the posted article, whether it be news report or analysis.

Because the events reported in that article, or the conclusions of that analysis, must be something that at all costs the Muslims do not want you to think about, or that they want you to think about only on terms dictated by themselves.

To the regulars: let us think carefully about how we respond to the Disruptors. It may be that we will from now on encounter a much more aggressive and unpleasant kind of Muslim poster, in greater numbers, than we have normally had here previously, seeking to 'get our goat' and elicit responses of a sort that might be twisted and used to get this website and forum shut down.

Let us also keep an eye open for intelligence-free random postings of the 'nuke Mecca! Kill them all!' variety, that may be 'planted' here - by Muslims or their fellow-travellers, but pretending to be angry counter-jihadists - expressly in order to supply cause for a shutdown attempt. (The verbal equivalent of firebombing one's own mosque in order to be able to claim that there has been a 'hate crime').

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at November 16, 2008 10:56 PM

Dear imamerican,

You crack me up, really. The level of knowledge, according to you, is gaged by how often you read jihadwatch!!! Are you serious??? Do you think when any person in any serious profession related to the middle east or islam needs knowledge they come to jihadwatch. NO!

For all of you readers out there, and good Americans most of you I'm sure, THIS WEBSITE, JIHADWATCH.ORG IS A JOKE. Here's a challenge, find ANYbody who has written ANYthing on the Middle East, that has been published by ANY university press, and ask him/her what she/he thinks about jihadwatch. They will laugh. I guarantee it. (ok, maybe you'll find one person who won't). Whatever, point is, Jihadwatch is not the place to go to find out about such things.

Please, imamerican, I beg you, for the love of God, check out some other sources.

In regards to killings etc. perpetrated by "US" or "THEM", why don't you do a little independent research, and count as best you can, the number of people killed as the result of American actions vs. "jihadi" actions. Check out a little history as well, because it didn't start with the American invasion of Iraq (yes, contrary to public opinion here on jihadwatch, history predates 2003... and also predates 9/11).

If you want specific examples, check out Sheikh Sharif Ahmed, top dog of the ICU, Somalia, and relate the conversation back to the original article. Now Sheikh Sharif Ahmed was happy talking to the U.S. He wanted peace, stability, and all that crazy, crazy un-American stuff. We helped take his group out, the same group that brought the greatest extent of peace and stability Somalia has seen since 1991. We are the ones going into other countries. We are the ones taking out popular figures. We are the ones contributing in major ways to humanitarian disasters like Somalia today. That's a fact, ladies and gentlemen; I am not a relativist. That is a fact.

Posted by: jasonrfruit at November 16, 2008 10:57 PM

In my search for some scholarly forum, I have never been so unenthused, and I thank you America! As a citizen of the US, I am appalled at the lack of understanding in which this forum portrays. First of all, when speaking of Islam, and using stereotypes, how can one possibly say things such as “rape,” and “kidnap,” in the name of Allah. Which, if you understood Islam, is utterly blasphemous. Do these things not happen here in the US? And do Christians do these things? This argument is without question moot. Yes, people that practice Islam do horrible things, as with people who practice any faith. What then, is the real question or debate here? Is Islam some horrible religion in which we should all scrutinize? Look at the majority, nay, the vast majority of Islam and their people today. Are they malicious? Do they wish us ill-intent? Without question the answer to that is NO! So what are we really debating here? I think boredom and ignorance is the biggest player in this debate, and I apologize for my and your waste of time. Only G-d knows, you foolish, foolish creatures.

Posted by: gunnar at November 16, 2008 11:08 PM

gunnar, jasonrfruit

trying a bit of well-poisoning, eh?

I knew Islam was bad, bad news long before I happened across jihadwatch.

I had read the Qur'an years before September 11th 2001, and had already pegged it as a dangerously violent cult text (don't even bother to pull the usual nonsense about no-one being able to understand or interpret its esoteric inner beauties unless they're a Muslim and know fluent 7th century Arabic, I'm not buying that esoteric-exoteric inner-ring/ outer ring 'we who Know and you hoi polloi who are Ignorant' pseudo-gnostic gobbledygook for one second).

Mr Spencer is one of the most patient, thorough and lucid scholars I have ever had the pleasure of reading. So, too, are Bat Yeor and Andrew Bostom. I trust their judgement. As I trust, also, the judgement of Jacques Ellul, sociologist, who remarked "there is so much talk nowadays of the 'tolerance' and fundamental 'peacefulness' of Islam, that it is necessary to recall its nature, which is fundamentally warlike".

I trust Spencer, Bat Yeor, Bostom, Ellul (there are others, too, living and dead scholars, on whose work they build or whose work they complement).

But I don't trust that army of academic propagandists who for the past thirty or forty years have been paid - mostly by Saudi money - to whitewash Islam and paper over the plain facts of 1300 years of blood-drenched history.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at November 16, 2008 11:46 PM

jasonfruit

You were not justifying but you were`putting it in context' which is liberal-speak for justification. Relativism, context, common humanity are all liberal attempts at greying the line between right and wrong; good and evil.

Now I dont deny there are many times when the lines are indeed hazy and grey. But in the western liberal world the haziness seems to be absolute.

Posted by: Gorgi at November 17, 2008 7:11 AM

THIS WEBSITE, JIHADWATCH.ORG IS A JOKE.

jasonfruit,

We try to use our indoor voices here. There's no need to shout. You'll sound just as silly, in a calmer tone of "voice".

Now, what does your post on November 16, 2008 10:57 PM have to do with this thread about kidnapped nuns?

Posted by: Abscedere at November 17, 2008 10:00 AM

Dumbledoresarmy - If you look at the credentials of the pseudo-scholars you mentioned (Spencer, Yeor, Bostom, Ellul), you will find they have one thing in common: a complete lack of academic credentials in this field.

Spencer went to grad school and wrote his MA on the Catholic Theologian John Henry Newman. Bostom studied Medicine. Yeor did some archeology and history. Ellul of course is more sophisticated, but the expertise of this Marxist Christian anarchist is in philosophy and sociology, not Islam.

Just some Saudi-funded conspiracy to keep "the truth" as you see it out of academia? Please, you sound more pathetic than the 9/11 deniers. Just think about that, and think about the fact that no professor in Middle Eastern / Arabic / Islamic studies takes our hero Mr. Spencer seriously. When Spencer goes to universities to talk, he is not invited by any academics, but by the local student-run hardcore Republican group (I am republican by the way, but not a fan of nonsense).

Of course this does not "prove" anything, but I think it is a strong indicator that there might be better people out there to listen to.

Jihadwatch is for comic relief, not knowledge.

Gorgi - I appreciated how you again ignored and failed to address the content of what I replied to you with. How very Palinesque of you.

You certainly put it right though when you said that there is a lot of liberal BS around, and that there is in fact right and wrong, there is true and false, there is image and reality. What I have been trying to do in my posts is to bring deeper and broader pieces of truth and reality into the conversation, because we all know that this is missing most of this time on this site. So what is it? You want objective truth and reality, but only if the tidbits of truth match up with your preconceived notion of the real? You're sounding like quite a liberal relativist yourself here.

Although you may disagree with me, I am of the opinion that reading history is not unpatriotic. In fact, I would argue that one can be both well-read, thoughtful etc. and American - at the same time! Think about it.

Posted by: jasonrfruit at November 17, 2008 3:47 PM

Just think about that, and think about the fact that no professor in Middle Eastern / Arabic / Islamic studies takes our hero Mr. Spencer seriously.

Well, I'm sure the feeling is mutual. And I'm sure we are supposed to be impressed when the Saudis fund MESA professors and donate millions to their institutions, and that we are supposed to politely pretend with everyone else that the immediate credibility purchased for these shills retains its value uncorrupted even as they whore themselves ever more unashamedly.

Who would you have us uncritically fawn after anyway? Esposito? Armstrong? You'd think that when Spencer quotes Tantawi all would be well, for who else can claim his credentials, yet, apologists automatically erupt with even louder mau-mauing. The only way to please your limited palate is to feed it the same left-over sychophantic mantras the Saudi masters have approved for their dhimmi slaves to repeat.

Here's the short version, simpleton. We don't care if you are offended. We don't care if it meets your contrived standards.

We don't feel a need to abide in your world of polite pretense and pleasant illusions. We just want to know what the bad guys did today, and why they said they did what they did. This is the only site that offers that information. I didn't hear about this nun on the regular news. Her death was not trivial to me.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 17, 2008 6:10 PM

"I didn't hear about this nun on the regular news. Her death was not trivial to me."

********************************

1.) If you had read the news that you can only get here (as well as the Associated Press, Reuters, New York Times, CNN International, Bloomberg and about 50 others), you would have known that she has been kidnapped, not killed.

2.) Assuming she had been killed, what makes her death of more importance to you than thousands of Somalis who have died as the result of the U.S. back Ethiopian occupation of Somalia?

I await your reply.

Sincerely,

JRF

Posted by: jasonrfruit at November 17, 2008 8:43 PM

you would have known that she has been kidnapped, not killed.

1) I was referring to Sister Leonella. Go ahead Google her name. See who carried the torch. The beeb ranks much higher than anything you listed, and they are practically a branch of Al-Qaeda.

Assuming she had been killed, what makes her death of more importance to you than thousands of Somalis who have died as the result of the U.S. back Ethiopian occupation of Somalia?

Don't bother trying to engage me, I won't be back to read it. You bore me.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at November 18, 2008 12:20 AM