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Congressman Keith Ellison (D-MN) with dhimmi academic John Esposito at CAIR's banquet in Tampa
That is, "Council on American-Islamic Relations Day."
"CAIR urges Muslims to define themselves," from WMNF, November 17 (thanks to Weasel Zippers):
The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) held its 6th annual banquet Saturday at the Tampa Convention Center. Speakers included Georgetown University professor John Esposito and U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison, the first Muslim in Congress.Following prayers, about 600 people gathered to hear about the theme American Muslims: Defining Ourselves. Ellison said that during the recent presidential campaign, others groups attempted to define Islam and what it means to be Muslim. Many even tried to define Barack Obama as a Muslim, but the strategy didn’t work, Ellison said.
Ellison detailed some of the challenges that Muslims faced during the campaign, including two Muslim women wearing hijabs being forbidden by the Obama campaign from standing behind the candidate at a Detroit rally.
One way that non-Muslims tried to define Muslims during the campaign was through mass distribution of the DVD Obsession, which characterizes some members of the faith as violent extremists. But a University of South Florida religious studies graduate student, Catherine Lafuente, said propaganda like that won’t influence her. She is not a Muslim and her father died in the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center.
John Esposito is a professor of religion, international affairs and Islamic studies at Georgetown University. His most recent book is, Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think. Esposito said that a CAIR poll from two years ago pointed out the recent “political mainstreaming” of American Muslims.
Muslim-Americans worry about many of the same things that other Americans do, Esposito said.
Several Tampa Bay elected officials attended Saturday's banquet, including Hillsborough County Commissioner Kevin White and his newly elected colleague Kevin Beckner, Hillsborough School Board member Susan Valdes, and Temple Terrace Mayor Joe Affronti, who received a bridge builder award.
A civil rights award was presented to the Florida Immigrant Advocacy Center, and WMNF received a community service award. Maritza Betancourt is the city of Tampa’s Human Rights Investigator in the Division of Community Affairs. She read a proclamation from Mayor Pam Iorio.
“By virtue of the authority vested in me as mayor of the city of Tampa, I do hereby proclaim November 15, 2008, as ‘Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) Day’ in the city of Tampa, Florida.”
Here's a little refresher from CBN:
CAIR claims to be the nation's leading Muslim civil rights group. But the group's critics say it's focused more on making Islam a dominant force than with fighting bigotry.In 1998, CAIR founder Omar Ahmad told the San Ramon Valley Herald, "Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth."
Others point to a 1991 memo by the radical Muslim Brotherhood challenging American Islamic groups.
The memorandum, presented as evidence during a terrorism trial last year, reads that these Muslim groups "must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the western civilization from within and 'sabotaging' its miserable house by their hands" until Islam reigns supreme.
Not that any of that matters. Here is a statement from CAIR, via Pamela:
“By December 31, 2010, we will be supporting a $12,000,000 budget... We will have a presence covering all states, with at least 28 state chapters... We will impact local Congressional districts with each chapter influencing at least two legislators...We will focus on Congressmen responsible for policy that directly impacts the American Muslim community. For example, Congressmen on the judiciary, intelligence, and homeland security committees. We will develop national initiatives such as lobby day and placing Muslim interns in Congressional offices. In concert with local chapters we will sustain an ongoing media campaign to change the hearts and minds of Americans...”
Posted by Robert at November 20, 2008 8:19 AM
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You know, this kind of crap is really making it hard for me to admit to the shame of being a Floridian. I'm going to have to start lying. I'll tell people, from now on, that I'm originally from a more respectable state...Iowa, maybe.
Posted by: Abscedere![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/nav-commenters.gif)
at November 20, 2008 8:27 AM
Conditioning America to accept Islamic Radicalism, that is.
Posted by: John C at November 20, 2008 8:31 AM
I hate Esposito. He's evil.
Posted by: darcy at November 20, 2008 9:03 AM
Catherine Lafuente is a nitwit, IMO.
Posted by: eve_anne_gelical at November 20, 2008 9:33 AM
Commenter Wrote:
Catherine Lafuente is a nitwit, LMO.
-------------------------------
She is legion. She loses her father in 911 and she attends a propaganda forum. After 911, millions of Americans reached out to get assurance from the Muslims- So thatthey do not "give in to the hate and paranoia". It is people like her who make me feel not so bad that the Muslims are going to take over. After all, what are sheep for, if not to be slaughtered?
at November 20, 2008 9:52 AM
"CAIR urges Muslims to define themselves,"
They've already defined themselves as: killers, rapists, liars, cheats, thieves, traitors, bigots, racists, slavers, child-molesters, welfare bums, false witnesses, pirates, extortionists. How much more definition do they need?
at November 20, 2008 10:06 AM
"he DVD Obsession, which characterizes some members of the faith as violent extremists. But a University of South Florida religious studies graduate student, Catherine Lafuente, said propaganda like that won’t influence her."
Some people's propoganda is others' truth.
I mean, how is the statement "some Muslims are violent extremists" not true? Anyone? Bueller?
Posted by: Mo Foe at November 20, 2008 10:19 AM
I wonder if anybody has told poor Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.) that the reason Jefferson bought that Koran Keith used for his swearing in as our first-ever Moslem Congressman was bought by President Jefferson to find out what was causing all the ugliness.
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
Either Rep. Keith is a diabolical genius or a stone dumbass. Anybody wanna run the probabilities on this question?
Posted by: 33:21 at November 20, 2008 11:22 AM
Propaganda won't influence Catherine Lafuente, and what propaganda might that be Catherine? Are not the tenants of the Quran, and hadiths of interest to you, have you looked,read, reflected on any of the Islamic teachings? If so might there be some concern?You lost your father on 9-11, did you ask what the motivation was for these Muslims to kill thousands of Americans? I most certainly would Catherine,I would want to know, I would want to understand what and why my father was killed. Do you really believe that it was just an Isolated incident? Was the USS Cole an Isolated incident? Was 7/7 an isolated incident? Was Beslan an Isolated incident? Was the Madrid train bombing an Isolated incident? The Marine barracks in Lebanon and in Saudia Arabia, and the 12,263 terrorist attacks that have occurred all over the world since 9-11, are they all propaganda, and isolated incidents Catherine? Did you know about Omar Ahmad, Ishan Bagby, Nihad Awad,and Ibraham Hooper?
Catherine is another example of how the West continued to ignore the clear aggressiveness that was taking place in the 3rd reich in 1938. Catherine is determine to maintain her dhimmi status in honor of the horrific death of her father and his Co-Americans on 9-11. Maybe Catherine thinks that 9-11 was inside job?
Some of us continue to fail in recognizing what is truth, and what is fiction through the vestiges of time because we do not want to believe that there are those who wish us any ill will.
Catherine you where sitting among the masters of propaganda, the masters of taquiya, and kitman and you did not recognize it at all my young friend.
Posted by: Mackie at November 20, 2008 11:34 AM
One way that non-Muslims tried to define Muslims during the campaign was through mass distribution of the DVD Obsession, which characterizes some members of the faith as violent extremists. But a University of South Florida religious studies graduate student, Catherine Lafuente, said propaganda like that won’t influence her. She is not a Muslim and her father died in the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center.
....................
I feel for this woman's loss, but my God, what idiocy! How can anyone--let alone some who lost a close relative on 9/11--believe that even characterizing "some members of the faith [Islam] as violent extremists" is "propaganda"? This goes even way beyond the usual "small minority of extremists" rhetoric right over the edge into full-blown denial. What does she think the motives of her father's murderers were?
more:
Many even tried to define Barack Obama as a Muslim, but the strategy didn’t work, Ellison said.
....................
Well this is especially rich. During Obama's run for the presidency, I often heard the idea that he had been sworn into the Senate on a Qur'an debunked as an outrageous smear. Well, they were right, in a way--Obama wasn't sworn into the Senate on a Qur'an. I never heard the corollary, though--that this idea, though mistakenly applied to Barack Obama, was *not* groundless. It was Keith Ellison, as a matter of fact, who was sworn into his congressional office on a Qur'an.
As for CAIR helping American Muslims "define themselves", I think CAIR's agenda, overall, is more about either lulling non-Muslim into a false sense of security about the growing presence of Islam in their midst, and--where this is not possible--make then feel guilty--"racist", intolerant, anti- "diversity"--about ever doubting the followers of the Religion of Peace.
at November 20, 2008 11:42 AM
ebonystone
Definitions? You covered them all...yep..you did.
Posted by: pismopal at November 20, 2008 12:17 PM
I agree with ebonystone. Muslims have done a fine job of defining themselves. 9-11 was just their "grand opening" here in the US.
What CAIR is trying to do is whitewash the definition through propaganda and intimidation.
I've always been disturbed by WMNF's support of CAIR and of Islam here in the Tampa Bay area. I stopped listening to that radio station several years ago for that reason.
What continues to amaze me is how CAIR has managed to self-appoint and self-promote itself to the point where it has so much influence. And, that despite all the damning evidence of its ties to violent elements of the Islamic community, it is viewed as a credible organization by our local media. There is no story about Muslims or Islam on any of the local news stations (especially FOX 13) without a spokesperson from CAIR putting in his 2 cents. Fortunately we no longer have to listen to Ahmed Bedier since he separated from the organization.
This is NOT progress.
Posted by: cumulusnine at November 20, 2008 12:25 PM
We hear in the media now about how Zawahiri has come out and called Barak Obama a "house negro" and insulted him.
Anyone heard of any CAIR officials standing up to that? Or are American Muslims going to allow Zawahiri to "define" their view of Obama without the slightest protest?
I've searched the internet and visited CAIR's website, and so far I've not heard a peep from them.
Posted by: cumulusnine at November 20, 2008 12:28 PM
Well obama is a muslim first as is rev wright stealth jihad i will be buying sir the more i look into obama the more i know he is a muslim i was defending this guy in the beginning but then i looked into him and wright who started out in the nation of islam funny how an ex muslim brought into harvard by khalid rasheedi and saudi money joins a church where the rev has close ties to farrakhan and better yet was a member there are no coincidences in intel things happen for reasons watch and learn on moves obama will begin first will be agreeing to un no denounceing islam thing by which the way i'm expecting many days in jail for.
The man just has way to many ties and loose ends and he became a christian remember cause of his wife or thats what we are told.
at November 20, 2008 12:32 PM
"In 1998, CAIR founder Omar Ahmad told the San Ramon Valley Herald, 'Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.'"....from headline
Their agenda couldn't be any clearer.
Posted by: champ at November 20, 2008 12:42 PM
spcbat -- I agree with you, Obama is someone we need to keep an eye on. Good points, btw.
Posted by: champ at November 20, 2008 12:44 PM
Camel-nose-under-tent Alert!
"We will develop national initiatives such as ... placing Muslim interns in Congressional offices."
From the article.
This has to be Ellison's doing. In other words, plant in every Congressional office young impressionable Muslim moles who will thereby gain intimate knowledge of the workings of Congress and the congressional committees on which their sponsor sits. And will Congress as a whole notice that this is going on as an organized activity? And who will be the principal sponsor to run the Muslim Intern program (one guess) and thereby be the principal focus for collection of Intern reports on Congressional activities, some of which will be sensitive, even classified? And what outcry will occur when a Congressperson declines to accept a Muslim intern on his staff, perhaps because of a family connection leading back to an officially designated terrorist group? Will CAIR cry Islamophobia on said rejectee's behalf and raise a public stink, and what will the congressperson caught in this unfortunate bind do in response?
I don't know what the requirements are for becoming an intern, but I hope that at the very least they include being a natural born citizen, a signed loyalty oath to the American Constitution that explicitly acknowledges it is the law of the land, and any action undertaken that runs against the oath is a federal felony offense carrying jail time.
Ellison is the big camel's nose here. Someone better get busy fast to organize his defeat the next election.
Posted by: Eastview at November 20, 2008 12:49 PM
"Some of us continue to fail in recognizing what is truth, and what is fiction through the vestiges of time because we do not want to believe that there are those who wish us any ill will. "
Mackie,
It is in accurately defining what the truth is, and who it is that actually means us harm, wherein the greatest problem lay with those like you.
To me, and many other Muslims, it only tends to make your position preposterous and laughable when you try to project your bias across the entire Muslim demography.
Since most of you people are unable focus on those whom we are actually at war with (Al Qaeda) and seperately identify that group, and speak about that group, then you will continue to be rejected by the majority of the populace and you will not find the support you need for your position.
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 1:01 PM
33:21
Where is your proof for your position on Jefferson's motivation?
Do tell, I'd like to read it...
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
*33:25 ** 33:25 ** 33:25 ** 33:25 ** 33:25 **33:25
at November 20, 2008 1:07 PM
Send Mayor Pam Iorio a message:
http://www.tampagov.net/appl_customer_service_center/form.asp?strServiceID=133
Dear Mayor,
You have made a grievous error in judgment. I implore you and your colleagues to recognize the threat of Islam and accept the responsibility to protect and defend this country, our Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees. CAIR is NOT friendly to the US, its people, its culture or our democratic future.
Islam is not just a religion; it is a political-judicial-cultural ideology as defined by the quran, hadith and sira as implemented under sharia law. Islam replaces or subjugates anything non-Islamic. Wherever Islam grows, a state within a state develops and the existing government and unbelieving (kafir) culture is rejected. Again, an Islamic minority faction grows until it can conquer, by political or violent means, the established government.
This modern insurrection begins with a demand for deferential treatment of Islam, including insistence on religious accommodations, judicial separateness, and general cultural and educational non-integration. In addition, imagined affronts to Islam are claimed and redress demanded. Islam is oppressive, anti-women and discriminatory in practice, it restricts freedom of thought and action and thereby violates human rights. Muslim-Muslim relations are completely separate from Muslim-kafir relations, where deceit is common. Islam is incompatible with our values and sensibilities of freedom and secularism.
No matter the temperament of individual Muslims, the Islamic community as a whole drives the process of Islamization in every country where Islam thrives. Violence, legal intimidation, sedition and subversive behavior are common and strategic. There is no room to list the violent acts of Muslims against non-Muslims in the name of Islam. The U.S. under any form of Islamic control is the antithesis of our country’s history and free thinking traditions and will suffocate future intellectual, cultural and artistic growth.
at November 20, 2008 1:29 PM
Civilus Defendus,
"Send Mayor Pam Iorio a message:"
Okay, I did:
Dear Mayor,
I applaud your judgment, do not listen to radicals.
I implore you and your colleagues to recognize the threat of Islamophobes to and the fear and instability they cause in this country.
Our Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees are being attacked by their kind…we, the American people, are the bedrock of our civil rights, and CAIR is composed of Americans, “We the People”, not “Just My People”.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 1:39 PM
Abdullah, you're being obstinate and more than a little disingenuous in your demand of 33:21 to produce proof of Jefferson's motivation for attacking the Barbary Pirates. Do your own research before impugning the statements of others who report historical facts that you find upsetting to your Muslim sensibilities. It doesn't take long on Google to dig up the information about Jefferson and the problem he had with the pirates. Unlike our present politicians, Jefferson didn't depend on others for doing his background research. He did his own, and based on his reading of the Qur'an and reports from Europe of some Muslim ambassadors boasting about their exploits, all using Qur'anic justifications, he reached the same conclusions about the futility of negotiations with the Muslim pirates as you see presented on these pages. Ellison willfully misrepresented Jefferson's reasons for reading the Qur'an. It wasn't for spiritual inspiration, and he was certainly no respecter of organized religions. Rather, he was performing his due diligence to glean as much as he could about the mindset of his enemy. Think Sun-Tzu - know your enemy.
Posted by: Eastview at November 20, 2008 1:41 PM
33:21
Where is your proof for your position on Jefferson's motivation?
Do tell, I'd like to read it...
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Certainly you don't think that Jefferson was sympathetic to Islamic ideology. He was concerned with the Barbary pirates preying on merchant ships in the Mediterranean. He built the Navy to combat them - a far better use of our $$ than paying jizya as Europe had been accustomed to doing. It's been a couple of hundred years since our country's leaders had such a firm grasp of the threat of jihad.
Spare Ribs
Richard
at November 20, 2008 1:44 PM
Eastview,
You obfuscate.
I did not ask anything about Barbary Pirates…I asked about proof of his opinion of Jefferson’s motivation for getting a Quran… all I know of him he was an intellectual man of the world a humanitarian and a statesman.
By the way, in the end, what conclusion did Jefferson reach?
He orchestrated that the treaty state firmly :
“Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mohametan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.”
Yes, Think Sun-Tzu –
“On dispersive ground, therefore, fight not. On facile ground, halt not. On contentious ground, attack not.”
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 1:57 PM
"Since most of you people are unable focus on those whom we are actually at war with (Al Qaeda) and seperately identify that group, and speak about that group, then you will continue to be rejected by the majority of the populace and you will not find the support you need for your position."
Abdullah, I must disagree. It is Muslims, like you, who have failed to unequivocally separate themselves from those whom we are actually at war.
Where is your national, unified voice?
I'll tell you where it is. It is filing lawsuits demanding special treatment in the workplace, special accommodations on college campuses, whining about having extra (justified)scrutiny in airports, and just generally acting like victims.
Your voice is heard in the suppression of free speech through acts of intimidation on our college campuses by groups like the Muslim Students Association.
That's the voice many Americans hear.
Instead of attacking us, why not identify, isolate, and disempower those Muslims that do support and perpetrate Islamic violence and all that comes with it? I can assure you, it will be much more effective than whining about how some of us (understandably) perceive you.
Posted by: cumulusnine at November 20, 2008 1:59 PM
History is Helpful:
The Civilization of the Middle Ages, Norman F. Cantor
What Went Wrong? Bernard Lewis
Future Jihad. Terrorist Strategies Against the West, Walid Phares
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) Robert Spencer
Now they call me Infidel, Nonie Darwish
Infidel,Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Columbia History of the World
Atlas of Jewish Civilization: 4,000 years of history J Bacon
Age of Delirium, David Statter
East and West, C Northcote Parkinson
Plus other topics
Ancient Rome
China
Mongols
Hitler
Europe
Russia
Germany
Central America
Macedonia
Mexico
Africa
Vietnam
WWII
US Civil War
Slave Trade
Archaeology
Through tens of thousands of pages of history, I seek to understand the world. Do you?
at November 20, 2008 2:02 PM
ABDULLAH NOTHING TO SEE HERE NOW JUST MOVE ALONG NOTHING AT ALL HUH WELL HMM LETS JUST SEE.
PHILLPINES INDOERNESIA MIDDLE EAST MOST OF ASIA MOST OF WESTERN EUROPE AND RUMANIA AND HUNGRY LARGE PARTS OF PACIFIC ISLANDS RUSSIA PARTS OF SOUTH AMERICA BUT MALIK NOTHING TO SEE HERE JUST MOVE ALONG MAN ILL TELL YA WHAT BRO YOU WOULD MAKE A GREAT USED CAR SALESMAN DESPITE ALL THE RELIGIONBS YOU GUYS ARE ATTACKING TAKEING AWAY THE THEORY OF A FEW EXTREMISTS AND ISLAM YOU MUSLIMS FIGHTING IN MORE COUNBTRIES THEN INVOLVED IN WW2 YOU STILL TRY TO SELLTHIS PRODUCT HOWS THIS FOOL ISLAM IS THE MOST BIGOTTED RACIST RELIGION CREATED IT MAKES DARK AGESCHRISTIANITY LOOK MILD VERY SIMPLE OFFICER ABDULLAH BARBRADY ILL BE MOVEING ALONG NOW AS YOU EXPLAIN THERES NOTHING TO SEE JUST A BUNCH OF PEOPLE BEHEADED BY THE WAY YOU SEEM LIKE A BLACK MUSLIM CONVERT TO ME TO BAD THEY DONT LIKE YOUR KIND IN MECCA THE RELIGION OF TOLERANCE LOL
at November 20, 2008 2:04 PM
Proven Truths About CAIR:
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/ProvenCAIRtruth
Truth
Champ
at November 20, 2008 2:09 PM
It's interesting. The strategies that CAIR, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, proposes to use on America and Americans are the kind of tactics that would get them hung if they were a Christian group anywhere in the islamic world.
Makes you think.
Geoff
PS: Abdullah - Jefferson was deluded. The announcement of their ambassor speaks sufficiently. Remember Sun Tzu!
Posted by: Geoff at November 20, 2008 2:12 PM
cHAMPVERY GOOD SITE BY THE WAY ABDULLAH WANTS TO SELL YA A CAR HIS GRANDMOTHER ONLY DROVE IT TO MOSQUE ONCE A WEEK
Posted by: spcbat at November 20, 2008 2:14 PM
India, Armenia, Somalia, Kenya, Sudan, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Kosovo, Lebanon, Turkey/Byzantium, Mesopotamia, generally the Levant, SE Asia, Ethiopia, Algeria, Spain, Morroco.
How peaceful were they? No compulsion there, eh?
Posted by: Civilus Defendus at November 20, 2008 2:23 PM
CIVILUS THE LIST GOES ON AND ON DOESNT IT APPARENTLY ABDULLAH EITHER DOESNT READ WORLD NEWS OR WANTS TO SELL US THIS BEATEN UP OLD CAR CALLED ISLAM AND THINKS WE ARE ALL RUBES
Posted by: spcbat at November 20, 2008 2:27 PM
spcbat - Lay off the caps!
Marisol, if he/she keeps up with this juvenile behavior, I vote he/she be thrown off the site and all these comments deleted.
Posted by: Eastview at November 20, 2008 2:27 PM
Yes; should I choose to ignore the tenants of the Quran, How many have actually taken the time to read the Quran and see what it says? they might be surprised at what you find. I wish it weren’t so, but I find it hard to believe that Islam in its purity is a peaceful and tolerant religion.
Mr.Mackay above will defend some of these as being out of context of course, or you cannot read them properly if you do not read Arabic..
2:89-”Therefore, the curse of Allah is upon the unbelievers!”
2:97-”Whoever is an enemy to Allah and His angels and messengers, to Gabriel and Michael, lo! Allah is an enemy of the unbelievers.”
2:193-”Fight against them (unbelievers) until there is no dissension, and the religion is for Allah.”
Fight until no other religion exists but Islam.
2:218-”But those who believe and those who migrate and struggle in the way of Allah, those, have hope of the mercy of Allah.”
Those who fight for Allah may have hope of forgiveness.
3:19-”The only true faith in God’s sight is Islam. Those to whom the book was given disagreed among themselves only after knowledge had been given to them, being insolent among themselves. He who disbelieves the verses of Allah indeed Allah is swift in reckoning.”
3:28-”The believers should not take the unbelievers as friends or helpers in preference to the believers. He who does this does not belong to Allah in anything, unless you have a fear of them.”
3:110-”You are the best nation ever to be brought forth for people. You order honor and forbid dishonor, and you believe in Allah. Had the people of the book believed, it would have surely been better for them. Some of them are believers, but most of them are evildoers.”
Most Jews and Christians are wrongdoers
3:151-”We will throw terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve.”
4:76-”And those who believe fight in the way of Allah, but those who disbelieve fight in cause of evil. therefore, fight against those guided by Satan.”
4:101-”"For the unbelievers are to you open enemies.”
5:51-”O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other.
8:12, 14-”I shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Strike them above the necks, smite their finger tips…. the punishment of the fire is for the unbelievers.”
8:39-”Fight them (unbelievers) until persecution is no more and the religion of Allah reigns supreme.”
8:65-”O Prophet, urge the believers to fight. If there are twenty patient men among you, you shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred, they shall overcome a thousand unbelievers, for they are a nation who do not understand.”
8:74-”Those who believe and migrated from their homes and fought for the Way of Allah, and those who have sheltered them and helped them they are truly the believers.”
The jihad warriors are the true believers.
9:14-”Fight them (unbelievers), Allah will punish them with your hands and degrade them. He will grant you victory over them and heal the chests of a believing nation.”
9:29-”Fight those who neither believe in Allah nor the last day, who do not forbid what Allah and his messenger have forbidden, and do not embrace the religion of the truth, being among those who have been given the book (Bible and the Torah), until they pay tribute out of hand and have been humiliated (or feel themselves subdued).”
9:49-”Hell shall encompass the unbelievers.”
9:73-”O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”
47:4-”Therefore, when you meet the unbelievers smite their necks, then, when you have killed many of them, tie the bonds…. As for those who are killed in the Way of Allah, he will not let their works to go astray.”
47:8-”But the unbelievers shall be the destroyed losers. He will bring their deeds to nothing.”
Posted by: Mackie at November 20, 2008 2:30 PM
cumulusnine,
"It is Muslims, like you, who have failed to unequivocally separate themselves from those whom we are actually at war."
Au contraire! Verbally, vocally, and repeatedly I have stiff armed any association with Al Qaida.
We have condemned terrorism, issue fatawas, gone the whole nine yards...but nothing the millions of us do outshines the few screaming nut bags that get press here at JW.
I don't whine at airports and I travelled a lot...I do my duty, get screened like everyone else, and I am happy about it.
It is stereotypical hangups that hamsrting most of you.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 2:31 PM
East i see now you control the site and choose who can and who cannot make comments little bit of a swelled head huh buddy well pal hmmm get over it.
Posted by: spcbat at November 20, 2008 2:34 PM
Posted by: Mackie at November 20, 2008 2:30 PM
Context, it isn't everything, but it ranks up there with Oxygen.
A little lesson on context for you, Mackie, since you "just don't get it."
The Quran says,
"There is no God..." thirty eight times!
Woah! Hold the presses! It says there is no God?
Who could have figured!?
Oh, but wait, Mackie, don't forgot to read the rest:
"...but God."
It is universally connected, even for those who read English only...it just takes a desire to read it in context to understand the meaning...
If your only desire is to obfuscate and misdirect, yes, there is ample opportunity for that...any idiot can quote things out of context and spin up an entirely different meaning.
Truth it's in the Context.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 2:36 PM
Thanks, spcbat, it is a very good link; and I understand why you use 'caps' to write with, because didn't you once explain that you are partially blind? Take care.
Posted by: champ at November 20, 2008 2:41 PM
ABDULLAH you have condemned terrorism but how do you define what is terrorism is what hamas has done or hezbullah terrorism see what you say and what you show are two different things do you denounce al quada yet back people like hamas shooting rockets on civilians as terrorism.
Oh and by the way the whole fatwa thing is basically a form of superior actions in other words you who think themselves as most pious tells us what we should and should not think this is where the problem stems in islam basically converts like you who could not control how they act chose a religion that dictates how they should act mourning noon and night no thanks still not buying your car sir.
at November 20, 2008 2:44 PM
Posted by: spcbat at November 20, 2008 2:44 PM
Shooting rockets at civilians is terrorism, whatever gave you the idea it wasn’t?
And thank you for your bias projection, dearie, I am not a convert.
Do you mind if I turn that coin you just gave over?
It’s Islamophobes like you that push their bias projections onto other people…don’t let your bigotry drag you down…it’s not doing anything for anyone.
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 2:53 PM
Well the basis of you claiming i am an islamophobe would be exactly what you say most muslims are not islamists i am guessing well again how do you explain 85 percent of the wotld under some form of islmist attack the 15 muslims with 15 trillon frequent flyer miles does not work as for islamphobe well bud i do not fear muslims phobe means fear i have no fear of you i point out your lies your twists and turns .
I also as many here do point out the the truthes you tend to avoid may not like or clearly lie about no my friend i do not fear my enemy i love understand then defeat him by any means needed to achieve my goal as you do they same if you mean islamaphobe in the sense that i fight you with words then i am guilty fact is muslims are fighting in alot of countries killing alot of other cultures and religions and you sit here telling us how you and your friends denounce terrorism answer the question how do you define terrorism are hamas hezbullah terrorists to you or are they freedom fighters and is al quada a terrorist organization to you cause its a different sect.
at November 20, 2008 3:02 PM
It sure is nice living in the United States.
Step outside the US by seeing through the eyes of others. The hate, coercion, intimidation, crushing family pressure, culturally/Islam induced shame and self-loathing, the constant droning of obedience to Allah (or in communist countries to the state), the group think, and for women the endless maid-slave-concubine class. The refusal to accept responsibility, the endless blame game (must be the Joooows), the averting eyes from reality. Yes, this is part of Islam; part of cultures who live by the clan and the divine rules of Allah rather than a Constitution, OUR Constitution. Yes, we are but men and make mistakes, but my preference is to live by our Constitution and liberty-minded traditions than those of a maniacal “prophet” of some 7th century cult.
Posted by: Civilus Defendus at November 20, 2008 3:05 PM
"Au contraire! Verbally, vocally, and repeatedly I have stiff armed any association with Al Qaida.
We have condemned terrorism, issue fatawas, gone the whole nine yards...but nothing the millions of us do outshines the few screaming nut bags that get press here at JW.
I don't whine at airports and I travelled a lot...I do my duty, get screened like everyone else, and I am happy about it.
It is stereotypical hangups that hamsrting most of you."
I feel your pain Abdullah, yet I must continue to disagree. Everywhere we turn in this country muslims are being given special treatment. CAIR is giving special training to the FBI, and our President goes out of his way to say how peaceful Muslims are and how we are not at war with Islam, only with the terrorists (who, by the way, our government is no longer allowed to refer to as Islamic).
It is not the "few screaming nut bags that get press here at JW" but rather the screaming nut bags from the Islamic world that dominate the press: Zawahiri, Ahmadinejad, Bin Ladin, not to mention the myriad of "Palestinians" that keep screaming "Death to America" right here on American university campuses. And let's forget the Saudi textbooks being used in America to teach their hate and mission to dominate America, the mosques that preach one thing in Arabic, and another in English.
My congratulations to you, personally, if you have "Verbally, vocally, and repeatedly ... stiff armed any association with Al Qaida." What Muslim organization in the US is currently doing the same? And what is it about Al Qaida that you "stiff arm?" Their Islamic ideology? If you don't believe that Islamic Law is the only law, then what do you believe?
Posted by: cumulusnine at November 20, 2008 3:05 PM
Well-stated Civilus Defendus.
Posted by: cumulusnine at November 20, 2008 3:21 PM
Can anyone guess how much Sowdi money is going to pay for dhimmi academic John Esposito? The State Dept needs to look into money coming from the sowdis to schools and take away their right to fund these terrorist sponsoring schools in the US.
From a proud Islamphobe! Islamphobe is someone who can identify a monstrous death cult that has killed millions of people and continues to terrorize and kill people today!
at November 20, 2008 3:25 PM
spcbat - Lay off the caps!
Marisol, if he/she keeps up with this juvenile behavior, I vote he/she be thrown off the site and all these comments deleted.
Posted by: Eastview
That's a bit harsh. I actually look forward to spcbat's comments. Trying to parse them is up there with solving the jumble word puzzle in the classified section of the paper.
http://www.puzzledepot.com/wordfinder/Oldfiles/jumble.html
I think spcbat's comments have merit, even if they are a bit difficult to read. BTW, did you notice that after Eastview's comment spcbat actually began using punctuation?
Posted by: Richard at November 20, 2008 3:27 PM
Posted by: cumulusnine at November 20, 2008 3:05 PM
“What Muslim organization in the US is currently doing the same? “
http://archives2005.ghazali.net/html/fatwa_issued.html
Islamic Fiqh Council of North America, CAIR, ICNA, etc. 120+ more organizations:
FIQH COUNCIL OF NORTH AMERICA
EXCERPT:
“In the light of the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah we clearly and strongly state:
1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam.
2. It is haram for a Muslim to cooperate with any individual or group that is involved in any act of terrorism or violence.
3. It is the civic and religious duty of Muslims to cooperate with law enforcement authorities to protect the lives of all civilians.”
Members
1. Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi
2. Dr. Abdul Hakim Jackson
3. Dr. Ahmad Shleibak
4. Dr. Akbar Muhammad
5. Dr. Deina Abdulkadir
6. Shaikh Hassan Qazwini
7. Dr. Ihsan Bagby
8. Dr. Jamal Badawi
9. Dr. Muhammad Adam Sheikh
10. Shaikh Muhammad Al-Hanooti
11. Shaikh Muhammad Nur Abdallah
12. Dr. Salah Soltan
13. Dr. Taha Jabir Alalwani
14. Shaikh Yahya Hindi
15. Shaikhah Zainab Alwani
16. Dr. Zulfiqar Ali Shah
17. Dr. Mukhtar Maghraoui
18. Dr. Nazih Hammad
And internationally to name a few:
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD195908
“On May 31, 2008, thousands of Islamic clerics and madrassa teachers from across India converged in the Indian capital of New Delhi for the Anti-Terrorism and Global Peace Conference, held by the Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind (Assembly of Indian Clerics), a countrywide network of Islamic scholars. The conference issued an anti-terrorism fatwa, which is being called the world's first unequivocal fatwa against Islamic terror.”
Hyberdad India November 8th 6,000 Imam’s Sign Fatwa condemning terrorism.
“And what is it about Al Qaida that you "stiff arm?" Their” Al Qaieda “ ideology?” so that your question is more precise.
It may be their opinion that it is “Islamic” but it is not our religion to kill innocent people for political gain.
Oppression is condemned in the Quran, so this is an impossible position to take that it is allowed to engage in terrorism that kills and maims innocent bystanders and still be follower of Mohammad and a believer in God.
That being said, I am a Muslim and I abide by my faith.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 3:51 PM
This is simple, prima facie treason on a massive scale. Anyone can Google CAIR and see immediately its infamous reputation.
It should have taken decades for Islam to recover any credibility after 9/11, if ever. But practically that afternoon on 9/11, degenerate politicians from Bush to Obama were scrambling to defend Islam more than the American nation.
Obama has written of his contempt for the West, as have other political leftists, and Bush is simply a weepy liberal in a conservative suit who has let his corporate "friendships" with egregious Arab theifdoms let him, and us, down the wrong path.
at November 20, 2008 3:57 PM
Posted by: Civilus Defendus at November 20, 2008 3:05 PM
Shameless projection bias.
Civilius have you ever lived in a predominantly Muslim country?
It is nothing like you describe, but I understand that is the way you feel, or perhaps would feel, if you yourself lived among them.
Preconceived notions, racial hatred, plain religious bigotry these are indeed things that would be hard for you to overcome in order to see the real society in these countries.
What I say is about an individual who has shown evidence of these tendencies, not a blanket statement about a cultural or religious group.
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 3:58 PM
"It should have taken decades for Islam to recover any credibility after 9/11, if ever."
Well Max Publis,
Since "Islam" didn't do anything on 9-11, and Al Qaida terrorists did, it seems quite clear to me we are chasing them around the globe swatting them wherever they reside, or attempting to, and justly demonizing their every public utterance. I don't think people have given them any quarter what soever...no, not one iota of forgiveness.
Personally I wish the swatting would be done by Spec Ops teams instead of missiles...too many innocent people get killed or harmed that way.
Any way, despite your own personal hatred against Islam, it is no suprise to me at all that Islam is starting to shine since many people are now scruitinizing it honestly and liking what they find.
Then there are others who are biased before even picking up the Quran...and all they will ever find in it is arguement and confusion.
God said, paraphrased, "You will find what you go looking for...walk towards Me I will run towards you, run towards Me I will fly towards you...God is the firmest hand hold that never breaks."
I hope you figure it out before the end.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 4:09 PM
Ah, no. Those were the words of Islamic women from Egypt, Somolia and Saudia Arabia.
Sorry.
Posted by: Civilus Defendus at November 20, 2008 4:09 PM
Er, some are now ex-Muslim women.
Posted by: Civilus Defendus at November 20, 2008 4:11 PM
Abdullah,
Inspite of your many previous obfuscations of fact,
You stated (above at 3.51p):
It may be their opinion that it is “Islamic” but it is not our religion to kill innocent people for political gain.
Would you please clarify the "...not..to kill innocent people for political gain."
at November 20, 2008 4:14 PM
Posted by: Civilus Defendus at November 20, 2008 4:09 PM
Nothing to be sorry about, Civilus...well, you could apologize for your sources, some I suspect are:
“ Those were the words of Islamic women from (Nonie Drawish) Egypt, (Ayan Hirsi Ali) Somolia and (Wafa Sultan is Arab, but Syrian?) Saudia Arabia”
Yeah, I suspect these are some of the “unbiased” writers you learn from.
I am an advocate of doing my own research first person and making my decisions based on that.
You should try it some time…it may help you overcome your bigotry.
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 4:21 PM
boneshack,
You first:
"Inspite of your many previous obfuscations of fact,"
Your proof?
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 4:34 PM
Thank you. You answered my question.
at November 20, 2008 4:38 PM
boneshack
So glad to be of help.
You must be from the Obama camp? Right?
Abdullah Mikail
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 20, 2008 4:42 PM
Now why would people who were raised in various cultures and who in fact chose to examine those cultures, be biased? Uhm. And no, your list is not accurate.
First person, yes you could study about 1/100,000th of the Islamic world. That is why the testimony of others is actually important.
at November 20, 2008 4:44 PM
Civilius
I would add,
'unbiased' "testimony of others is actually important."
In order to agree.
Truth
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 4:48 PM
Abdullah Mikail
You live in a sick fantasy. Did I just pull Islam out of a hat to hold in contempt for the evil it perpetuates? Or is it a lifetime of hearing about Islamic terrorism and seeing the results up close at the bombed Pentagon?
If people were interested in Islam except through coersion and deceit, then why does Islam call for murdering ex-Muslims and "apostates"? Who would leave your "shiny" religion?
Al Qaeda's only mistake, Islamically speaking, is it has wakened people up (slowly) to the nature of true Islam. No, you and the Saudis, et al, prefer to have people sleepwalk into Islam, by fooling them with a false patina of propaganda paid with oil money until they are inescapably inside Islam's rotten interior.
at November 20, 2008 4:57 PM
AM -- have you ever had sex with a nine year old?
Posted by: champ at November 20, 2008 5:03 PM
Who judges the bias of others? We all have perspective. And once again the preponderance of evidence is not good for Islam. I would say reading 5 sources of information are important before making a judgment about any single historical event or broader period of history. That way you see several perspectives. Using a selected few is weak and reveals the reader's bias.
Posted by: Civilus Defendus at November 20, 2008 5:04 PM
"...prefer to have people sleepwalk into Islam, by fooling them with a false patina of propaganda paid with oil money until they are inescapably inside Islam's rotten interior."
Max Publius
Oh yes, and escape is a death sentence.
Posted by: Civilus Defendus at November 20, 2008 5:08 PM
Islam mandates violence -- to the point of mass murder -- against perceived 'disobedient' women, against perceived 'non-believers' against those whose conscience insists they leave its coercive teachings. Its adherents believe the words of the guy who wrote the Qur'an when he said of himself that he was a beautiful pattern of conduct.("Self recommendation is no recommendation") I could say the same about myself -- that I too am a beautiful pattern of conduct. But if I then went raiding and murdering, raping and beheading, torturing (Kinana) and mutilating people, the general consensus would definitely turn against me. And that's the problem. The founder of Islam was a monster. "By their fruits you shall know them" Show me one good thing that Islam brings to the world. We've all seen and read too much about Islam. There's nothing irrational about 'Islamaphobia' It's the only 'religion' that gives rise to terror.
Posted by: jewcat at November 20, 2008 5:17 PM
"1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam."
Who are the civilians in question? Does that include non-Muslis> Does that Islam repudiate the dhimma laws? because if they are still in the books, then it means that terrorismm targeting civilians is still permissible.
Abdullah - I think you really believe that - but that's probably because you've never lived as a non-Muslim in a Muslim country - you've never seen hordes of Muslims running down your street screaming Allah uAkbar, breaking your door and smashing your windows while your scared family is inside, the children crying, with no other weapon than a kitchen knife, and for no other reason than the fact that you're not a Muslim -
No,terrorism targeting civilians is permissible in Islam UNLESS THE TARGETS ARE MUSLIMS. Otherwise, the Muslim perpetrators are protected by Sharia. BinLaden didn't invent anything, he wasn't the first Muslim terrorist and he won't be the last.
Posted by: swilliams at November 20, 2008 5:20 PM
AM - the guy you worship was a murderer, rapist, pedophile, terrorist, traitor, ....etc.
Can you tell us which one of these qualities that you like about him?
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy at November 20, 2008 5:23 PM
Catherine Lafuente - she is a real loser, a sad case. She lost her father and now herself to Islam.
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy at November 20, 2008 5:27 PM
AM - the guy you worship was a murderer, rapist, pedophile, terrorist, traitor, ....etc.
Can you tell us which one of these qualities that you like about him?
Posted by: MusHuntCowboy
Excellent questions, but he'll never answer your legitimate questions concerning Muhammad, because it's impossible to defend the indefensible.
Posted by: champ at November 20, 2008 5:38 PM
Jefferson had a Koran to "Know the enemy."
Abdullah Mikail - Get out of our country. Go live in an Islamic Crapistan, which you haven't got the cojones to do. Coward. Utter and complete crap-filled Coward, Slave of allah, a pagan moon deity that doesn't exist. You're stupid. Dumb, brainwashed, and stupid.
at November 20, 2008 6:01 PM
The Slave to allah - a screaming nut bag!
Crap-filled Coward "Abdullah" - the Slave to a non-existent pagan moon god! LOL! Whacked your empty cranium today to allah that doesn't exist, slave?
Posted by: darcy at November 20, 2008 6:06 PM
Crap, Deceit, Cowardice, Lies and Hypocrisy
Abdullah Mikail
at November 20, 2008 6:09 PM
Abdullah,
Thanks for the link to the 2005 fatwa. Yes, I'm familiar with that one. Hasn't done much to stop the violence has it? I wonder why it took them so long after 9-11 to issue that one.
And, as far as the Fiqh Council is concerned, they are not exactly a squeaky clean bunch. Doesn't take much Googling to find interesting connections to Hezbollah and Hamas. You do consider those to be terrorist organizations, right?
Here's a little reading material for anyone starting their research into the Fiqh Council:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/FCNA-CAIR.html
"Hyberdad India November 8th 6,000 Imam’s Sign Fatwa condemning terrorism."
Thanks for the link on this fatwa. A little reading of the content of the fatwa produces this gem:
"It is proven, from clear guidelines provided in the Holy Koran, that the allegation of terrorism against a religion which preaches and guarantees world peace are nothing but a lie. The religion of Islam has come to wipe out all kinds of terrorism and to spread the message of global peace. Allah knows best."
So here we have the fatwa denying that Islam has any connection to terrorism. Sounds like, once again, they are relying heavily on the idea that these millions of muslims simply "misunderstand" Islam. This is from the same religion that says there is no compulsion in religion, but leaving Islam is punishable by death. Muslims don't kill innocent civilians, of course. They engage in Jihad against their oppressors. Yes, I understand.
"It may be their opinion that it is “Islamic” but it is not our religion to kill innocent people for political gain."
Right, but what is the definition of "innocent." Innocence does not appear to extend to non-Muslims, especially those who might be "making mischief in the land.
"Oppression is condemned in the Quran, so this is an impossible position to take that it is allowed to engage in terrorism that kills and maims innocent bystanders and still be follower of Mohammad and a believer in God."
Really? So you don't consider the way non-muslims are treated under sharia to be oppression? I certainly do.
That being said, I am a Muslim and I abide by my faith.
What is your faith, Abdullah? I'm not interested in having a historical or intellectual debate. I want to know what you believe. It seems like the more I probe your beliefs, the shorter your answers get.
Do you believe that the world should be governed by sharia law?
Do you believe that it's ok to kill someone who insults Islam or Muhammed by drawing a cartoon?
Do you believe that death is a proper punishment for a muslim who renounces Islam?
Do you believe that Hezbollah and Hamas are committing acts of terrorism, or are they rightly fighting oppression?
Perhaps if you define yourself, then the "screaming nut bags" here at JW will not try to define you by projecting their harmful bias on you.
Posted by: cumulusnine at November 20, 2008 6:23 PM
33:21
Where is your proof for your position on Jefferson's motivation?
Uh, when he found out that 40% of the federal budget was being spent paying Jizya to the Murderous Mohammedans robbing the peaceful American merchant fleet in the name of Allah?
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
Factoid: The U.S. Marines became known as Leathernecks after Admiral Perry outfitted them with thick leather corsets to wear around their necks when battling the Maghrebian Moslem activists boarding our boats... they having learned the glory of decapitation from the supposed Koranic God named Allah and the putative prophet Mohammed.
We've gone from the shores of Tripoli to the debasement of the halls of Congress with Rep. Keith Ellison's crapulous, stupefying presence.
Hope nobody loses their haid listening to this idiot spew his delusional (but murderous) drivel.
Posted by: 33:21 at November 20, 2008 6:51 PM
"Since "Islam" didn't do anything on 9-11, and Al Qaida terrorists did"
And how many of those 9/11 terrorists were declared un Islamic apostates & denied paradise officially in Mecca or any other mosque around the planet?
Oh, what was that?
They are heroes to the Islamic world?
Posted by: revparadigm at November 20, 2008 6:53 PM
"1. All acts of terrorism targeting civilians are haram (forbidden) in Islam."
* 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 ** 33:21 *
Mohammed said, "I have been made victorious with terror."
-- Mohammed in a rare moment of clarity and non-wind-baggedness, Bukhari Vol. 4 Book 52 No. 220
I shall terrorize the Infidels.
-- the supposed Koranic god Allah talking good old fashioned terrorism in Koran 8:12
Maybe, just maybe, the Moslem activists who did 9/11 acted on the Sunnah and on Koranic commands. Could just be. Never know. Possible.
Posted by: 33:21 at November 20, 2008 7:19 PM
perhaps staying on topic and not feeding rodents will help this thread.
Posted by: ZenaWarriorPrincess at November 20, 2008 8:17 PM
"Hyberdad India November 8th 6,000 Imam’s Sign Fatwa condemning terrorism."
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail
yes...and not one word against JIHAD....more Muslim smoke and mirrors designed to mislead the Infidels...
at November 20, 2008 8:31 PM
"Our Constitution and the freedoms it guarantees are being attacked by their kind…we, the American people, are the bedrock of our civil rights, and CAIR is composed of Americans, “We the People”, not “Just My People”.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail "
several polls have been taken amongst the Muslim neighborhoods in America and in each one, the majority of Muslims polled do not consider themselves a part of Americas "We the People" and they favor JIHAD whether it be slow Jihad or fast Jihad as a means to remove "We the People" and supplant "We the People" with the Caliphate...+
yep...truth...
Posted by: pulsar182 at November 20, 2008 8:40 PM
"Jefferson didn't depend on others for doing his background research. He did his own, and based on his reading of the Qur'an and reports from Europe of some Muslim ambassadors boasting about their exploits, all using Qur'anic justifications"
Jefferson didn't just base it on "reports" from Europe of some Muslim ambassadors -- he heard it straight from the camel's mouth: he personally met with the Muslims ambassador (in London) of one of the Maghreb countries who told him that Muslims were attacking US ships, stealing their loot and kidnapping their crews (like Somalian pirates are doing today) and enslaving them when they didn't kill them, and this Muslim ambassador told Jefferson they had the right to do this based on the Koran.
at November 20, 2008 9:38 PM
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 20, 2008 4:48 PM
I see our resident "mayor of crazy town" is back.
"AM -- have you ever had sex with a nine year old?"
Posted by: champ at November 20, 2008 5:03 PM
Brutally vicious, yet beautiful. Kudos Champ. No response, I see from the "governor of Insanistan".
Gorgeous.
at November 20, 2008 10:10 PM
The Slave to allah - a screaming nut bag!
Crap-filled Coward "Abdullah" - the Slave to a non-existent pagan moon god! LOL! Whacked your empty cranium today to allah that doesn't exist, slave?
Nice bit of butch whacking there Darcy
Posted by: InfidelK9 at November 20, 2008 10:56 PM
Christopher Hitchens on Jefferson & Islam:
http://www.slate.com/id/2157314/fr/rss/
"It was quite witty of Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., to short-circuit the hostility of those who criticized him for taking his oath on the Quran and to ask the Library of Congress for the loan of Thomas Jefferson's copy of that holy book. But the irony of this, which certainly made his stupid Christian fundamentalist critics look even stupider, ought to be partly at his own expense as well.
In the first place, concern over Ellison's political and religious background has little to do with his formal adherence to Islam. In his student days and subsequently, he was a supporter of Louis Farrakhan's Nation of Islam, a racist and crackpot cult organization that is in schism with the Muslim faith and even with the Sunni orthodoxy now preached by the son of the NOI's popularizer Elijah Muhammad. Farrakhan's sect explicitly describes a large part of the human species—the so-called white part—as an invention of the devil and has issued tirades against the Jews that exceed what even the most fanatical Islamists have said. Farrakhan himself has boasted of the "punishment" meted out to Malcolm X by armed gangsters of the NOI (see the brilliant documentary Brother Minister: The Assassination of Malcolm X, which catches him in the act of doing this). If Ellison now wants to use his faith to justify an appeal to pluralism and inclusiveness and diversity, he needs to repudiate the Nation of Islam, and in much more unambivalent terms than any I have yet heard from him.
As to the invocation of Jefferson, we know that when he and James Madison first proposed the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom (the frame and basis of the later First Amendment to the Constitution) in 1779, the preamble began, "Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free." Patrick Henry and other devout Christians attempted to substitute the words "Jesus Christ" for "Almighty God" in this opening passage and were overwhelmingly voted down. This vote was interpreted by Jefferson to mean that Virginia's representatives wanted the law "to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahomedan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination." Quite right, too, and so far so good, even if the term Mahomedan would not be used today, and even if Jefferson's own private sympathies were with the last named in that list.
A few years later, in 1786, the new United States found that it was having to deal very directly with the tenets of the Muslim religion. The Barbary states of North Africa (or, if you prefer, the North African provinces of the Ottoman Empire, plus Morocco) were using the ports of today's Algeria, Libya, and Tunisia to wage a war of piracy and enslavement against all shipping that passed through the Strait of Gibraltar. Thousands of vessels were taken, and more than a million Europeans and Americans sold into slavery. The fledgling United States of America was in an especially difficult position, having forfeited the protection of the British Royal Navy. Under this pressure, Congress gave assent to the Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated by Jefferson's friend Joel Barlow, which stated roundly that "the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion, as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen." This has often been taken as a secular affirmation, which it probably was, but the difficulty for secularists is that it also attempted to buy off the Muslim pirates by the payment of tribute. That this might not be so easy was discovered by Jefferson and John Adams when they went to call on Tripoli's envoy to London, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman. They asked him by what right he extorted money and took slaves in this way. As Jefferson later reported to Secretary of State John Jay, and to the Congress:
The ambassador answered us that [the right] was founded on the Laws of the Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have answered their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.
Medieval as it is, this has a modern ring to it. Abdrahaman did not fail to add that a commission paid directly to Tripoli—and another paid to himself—would secure some temporary lenience. I believe on the evidence that it was at this moment that Jefferson decided to make war on the Muslim states of North Africa as soon as the opportunity presented itself. And, even if I am wrong, we can be sure that the dispatch of the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps to the Barbary shore was the first and most important act of his presidency. It took several years of bombardment before the practice of kidnap and piracy and slavery was put down, but put down it was, Quranic justification or not.
Jefferson did not demand regime change of the Barbary states, only policy change. And as far as I can find, he avoided any comment on the religious dimension of the war. But then, he avoided public comment on faith whenever possible. It was not until long after his death that we became able to read most of his scornful writings on revelation and redemption (recently cited with great clarity by Brooke Allen in her book Moral Minority: Our Skeptical Founding Fathers). And it was not until long after his death that The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth was publishable. Sometimes known as "the Jefferson Bible" for short, this consists of the four gospels of the New Testament as redacted by our third president with (literally) a razor blade in his hand. With this blade, he excised every verse dealing with virgin birth, miracles, resurrection, and other puerile superstition, thus leaving him (and us) with a very much shorter book. In 1904 (those were the days), the Jefferson Bible was printed by order of Congress, and for many years was presented to all newly elected members of that body. Here's a tradition worth reviving: Why not ask all new members of Congress to swear on that?
And here's a tradition worth inaugurating: The Quran repeats and plagiarizes many passages of the New Testament, including some of the most fantastic and mythical ones. Is it not time to apply the razor and produce a reasonable Quran as well? What could be more inclusive? What could be a better application of Jeffersonian original intent?"
at November 20, 2008 11:02 PM
Thurday eve...Time for the Abdullah show...15 posts and climbing...Does anyone read all that drivel?
at November 20, 2008 11:04 PM
From article: "CAIR urges Muslims to define themselves,"
That's a great idea...They can start by telling the truth more often...A truthful Mohammadan is scarce as hens teeth...
Right Abdullah?
When are you going to start defining yourself?
Posted by: duh_swami at November 20, 2008 11:15 PM
Hey, Awake! Yeah, maybe my question was a bit too brutal for the ole boy, because I see that it rendered him speechless. Gosh, maybe he keeled over from the shock.
You're a pussy lightweight, AM. Answer the question or we'll assume you HAVE slept with a nine year old child, because we already know that you follow after a sick-o prophet who practiced sexual perversion by having intercourse with little girls. Sick bastard. You too!
Posted by: champ at November 21, 2008 12:48 AM
I am sorry to say, that this page board has become unreadable and flat disgusting with these childish and vulgar personal attacks.
Personally, this makes me extremely uncomfortable and I am sure I am not the only one who feels that way.
Posted by: swilliams at November 21, 2008 5:20 AM
I am sorry to say, that this page board has become unreadable and flat disgusting with these childish and vulgar personal attacks.
Personally, this makes me extremely uncomfortable and I am sure I am not the only one who feels that way.
Posted by: swilliams at November 21, 2008 5:20 AM
Oh gimme a break. Mohammedans are trying to take over our Western culture, and have already made great strides in that goal in Western Europe.
Don't be silenced people, say what you want. Indeed, if we hadn't been muzzled post-911 by political correctness, I don't think we'd be in this situation of the Stealth Jihad. Language is a weapon - use it. In addition, since being "offended" is the Mohammedans' Achilles heel, offend-away!
Hey, how 'bout that Mohammed Bear? Gotta love it. I ordered two from the 'net and both are on display in my house. Anyone who takes issue, too bad.
Don't like it when I call Mohamet a false prophet? I couldn't care less less. How about your non-existent pagan moon deity? Ditto.
I refuse to be muzzled by brainwashed, ignorant brutal Barbarians whose goal is to kill or enslave us all if we don't convert to their diabolical beliefs.
Posted by: darcy at November 21, 2008 9:43 AM
Posted by: cumulusnine at November 20, 2008 6:23 PM
Cumulusnine.
You are very welcome.
It is unfortunate, however, that it is always the same stereotypical response I get from people when they read the answers to, “Oh yeah? Well which Muslims condemn terrorism?”
The same weak tactic is used in their responses.
Instead of accepting that the vast majority of us Muslims actually do condemn terrorism, and actually do know the difference between an armed enemy who intends violence against us and an innocent by stander - whomever they are – we not as you think we are.
Always I get the pat tactical response: ignore the validity of what is actually issued, attempt to discredit some of the sources, call into question their affiliations, pull the pall of suspicion over them, then deny, deny, deny.
It doesn’t matter your confusion on the subject…we are not confused. Soon the utility of this game of throwing suspicion onto any Muslm or Muslim organization is going to end…MacArthyism for all it’s supposed utility was seen in the end for what it became…so too thus Islamophobia and the smear campaigns will also be seen for what they really are, nothing more than bigotry.
You can point to all the incidence of violence you like and try to pretend there is a connection…we reject it, we reject your opinion, we reject you. We know who we are and what we stand for and we will continue to flourish in the world and become an even stronger positive contributing factor to this American landscape.
“So here we have the fatwa denying that Islam has any connection to terrorism.”
Yeah, that pretty much summed it up for those with knowledge. Those without it fall into error.
To address some of your questions:
“Do you believe that the world should be governed by sharia law?”
The Quran is against this and clearly states a “one world” government would only result in chaos. Nations, tribes, different people, borders…these are all mechanisms from God to check one set of people against another. This is a validity in the Quran a clear statement of reality. There is no call to take over the world. It does not say that any where. It does not imply that. It does not mean that. The only burden a Muslim has in respect to the faith is to deliver the message…that’s it.
“Do you believe that it's ok to kill someone who insults Islam or Muhammed by drawing a cartoon?”
I believe you think this is a valid question to ask, so I’ll entertain you. It is not permissible. The Prophet was even accosted by a person to whom he owed money…the man grabbed his cloak and yanked him telling Mohammad to pay his debt immediately. Ummar asked Mohammad, “Let me chop his neck!” The Prophet replied, “No. Teach him how to ask. Teach me how to pay.” Do you understand? If there was ever a time when an “insult” to the Prophet was made at the highest level I would say that was it. In light of your question and the response to the Danish cartoons, if there was a time a head should have rolled, shouldn’t it have been at the sword of Ummar in that instance? No, what you asked is not permissible.
“Do you believe that death is a proper punishment for a muslim who renounces Islam?”
There is no punishment of death for personal apostasy. There is a punishment for high treason which is exactly the same as our Uniform Code of Military justice.
“Do you believe that Hezbollah and Hamas are committing acts of terrorism, or are they rightly fighting oppression?”
Hamas and Hezbollah are members of the democratically elected governments of Lebanon and Palestine and bear the burden of defending their people from invasion and attack by neighboring forces. They engage in firing unguided rockets as a defensive tactic…these sometimes land in civilian areas. I feel this is an act of terrorism intended to frighten and deter…I do not agree with it. Their antagonists do far worse acts of terrorism. I will leave it at that.
“Perhaps if you define yourself, then the "screaming nut bags" here at JW will not try to define you by projecting their harmful bias on you.”
Perhaps you missed my pointed about the “screaming nut bags”…it is my moniker for some fool who stands up and says the “impermissible is allowed”…however, those that take up this lunatic call and run around trying to lend credence to it and use it as a weapon to attack Islam, well, I should label them “screaming nut bag enablers”. : )
I was disabled in the service of my country, this country, The United States of America, with honor I served and with honor I still serve in other capacity than active duty.
I am a Muslim, I am an American, and furthermore, I am a Conservative. I voted for McCain because the Republican Party platform more closely matches my values as a Muslim.
And as far as “harmful bias” is concerned, well, it isn’t harmful to me, it is only harmful to those who hold them. Nothing in life is more tragic than a person who lets their bias and their bigotry rule their lives.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
P.S. “What is your faith, Abdullah?” I am a Muslim, that was clearly stated.
at November 21, 2008 10:50 AM
AM -- can you spot the White Elephant in the room?
Posted by: champ at November 21, 2008 11:25 AM
The White Elephant is the one who is dressed as the Perfect Man.
Allah Had No Son:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp
at November 21, 2008 12:03 PM
I am a Muslim, I am an American, and furthermore, I am a Conservative, blah blah blaaah...
... and you are incredible. To be credible, you'd have to reconcile with Allah, Mohammed, Sharia, and the history of Islam.
You'll never do that, not only cuz you don't want to, but cuz it just can't be done.
But don't worry, the sacrificial offerings called Dhimmis don't want to reconcile with Allah, Mohammed, Sharia, or the history of Islam either. That would be deeply offensive to the billion Moslems supposedly flinching in pain out there.
Ouch.
Posted by: 33:21 at November 21, 2008 12:04 PM
Darcy
As far as I am concerned, you can express the poor opinion you have of Mohammed as you like and when you like.
But I take issue with personal attacks on posters just because they have different beliefs, using words as "bastard" and sexist and vulgar language. I also find it unhelpful in the fight against Muslim expansionism, particularly on the eve of the OIC convention. I am prepared to bet there are those busying themselves going from site to site and collecting "evidence" of "islamophobia". Well if you want to help them out, be my guest.
But if the intention is to run him off, no need to stoop that low, you can just mention equality in Islam, the dhimma system, and the abject "guarantor" requirement for Black Africans in some Muslim societies. That always does the trick.
Posted by: swilliams at November 21, 2008 12:22 PM
Swilliams,
"trick" or treat? Hmmmm? Let's find out...
"...equality in Islam, the dhimma system, and the abject "guarantor" requirement for Black Africans in some Muslim societies. That always does the trick."
I am very confident and secure in my faith and well versed in what it teaches.
I will entertain any question you ask.
Peace
Abdullah Mikail
at November 21, 2008 1:16 PM
Abdullah,
Since you are so well-versed in what your religion teaches, then you must be aware that all schools of Islamic jurisprudence teach that jihad means warfare on unbelievers and that it is mandatory on all Muslims.
Or do you deny this one?
Also, you say we see the violence and make the connection to Islam.
The thing is that the jihadists are! Not us. Just look at the name of the Islamic Jihad. And read what Al Qaeda writes. They can quote you chapter and verse. So, don't put the blame for the "connection" on us.
We simply listen to what they say.
Saudi textbooks tell Muslims to hate non-believers. We listen.
Al Qaeda says there should be Enmity to nonbelievers. We listen.
When the plane slams into the skyscraper, or the bomb vest goes off, or the head of a kidnap victim is cut off, as the perpetrators yell "Allahu Akbar!" does it really make sense to say "Islam has nothing to do with it"?
Posted by: Mo Foe at November 21, 2008 2:13 PM
Abdullah,
Do you really think that Muhammad is an excellent example of conduct?
-Do you think owning slaves is a good thing to do?
-Do you think raping your female slaves is a good thing to do?
-Do you think marrying a 6-year old is a good thing to do?
-Do you think robbing is a good thing to do?
-Do you think having your critics assassinated is a good thing to do?
If not, why not? I mean, the Qu'ran (which I understand you, as a good Muslim believe is perfect) says that Muhammad is an excellent example of conduct, and history (even written by pious Muslims) say he did these things, so, therefore, you must think they are good, right?
Posted by: Mo Foe at November 21, 2008 2:17 PM
Hey, Mo Foe! Abdullah appears to get completely flummoxed and tongue-tied whenever the subject of "Muhammad" comes up, so I will be shocked if you get a reply to your legitimate questions concerning Mo. Muhammad presents a real problem for Muslims, one they try to avoid; but they would prop up a dead man if it meant feeding their need for power and their false sense of superiority, regardless of this dead mans reputation and evil deeds. Oh wait, my bad, they already do that.
Posted by: champ at November 21, 2008 2:59 PM
I am sorry to say, that this page board has become unreadable and flat disgusting with these childish and vulgar personal attacks.
Personally, this makes me extremely uncomfortable and I am sure I am not the only one who feels that way.
Posted by: swilliams at November 21, 2008 5:20 AM
Oh gimme a break. Mohammedans are trying to take over our Western culture, and have already made great strides in that goal in Western Europe.
Don't be silenced people, say what you want. Indeed, if we hadn't been muzzled post-911 by political correctness, I don't think we'd be in this situation of the Stealth Jihad. Language is a weapon - use it. In addition, since being "offended" is the Mohammedans' Achilles heel, offend-away!
Hey, how 'bout that Mohammed Bear? Gotta love it. I ordered two from the 'net and both are on display in my house. Anyone who takes issue, too bad.
Don't like it when I call Mohamet a false prophet? I couldn't care less less. How about your non-existent pagan moon deity? Ditto.
I refuse to be muzzled by brainwashed, ignorant brutal Barbarians and whose goal is to kill or enslave us all if we don't convert to their diabolical beliefs.
Posted by: darcy at November 21, 2008 4:03 PM
Posted by: Mo Foe at November 21, 2008 2:13 PM
Moe,
“We simply listen to what they say.”
And yet you disregard what I and millions of other Muslims say, and again Islam makes crystal clear sense to those of us who understand it.
The explanation is lost on you because you prefer not to understand it and would rather define the whole by the minute few “radical nut bags” out there, yes I said minute.
Your choice, it doesn’t matter to me…I am only here to tell the truth, not force someone to listen.
And I don’t “blame the connection” on you. I blame people for blasting the media all over the world while attempting to redefine my faith as something it is clearly not.
“SAUDI textbooks tell Muslims to hate non-believers. We listen.” Then take it up with the Saudis, not my faith…address the one with the hang up.
“AL QAEDA says there should be Enmity to nonbelievers. We listen.” Then take it up with Al Qaeda, (and we are “taking it out on them” by the way) …don’t project their hang ups onto me, don’t project their hang ups onto Islam…address the entity with the hang up.
Yes, those who understand what the message is know that there is a problem with human beings, not Islam. Address the human being, and you address the problem…human beings have forever tried to pull the cover of religion over their political violence…even we Americans are trying to do that with our “War on Terror”…we are all trying to justify the violence under the guise of religion, noble causes, etc.
Poltical violence and terrorism is just that, Political violence and terrorism.
I reject any association of those with my faith as well as any negative association of yours.
And as far as your little set of questions, I mean, really...they were asked for not other purpose than a pathetic attempt to smear.
You recognize nothing of the reality of Islam, only the drive by scholarship that produces the "dime store novels" pushed here as "little screamers" that sell like hot cakes to those ignorant of what Islam is really about.
But I have grown to expect this kind of thing from you.
So be it. Some people come as reformers and bridge the gaps in culture to make this nation stronger...and then we have you, the class clown.
Peace
Posted by: Mo Foe at November 21, 2008 2:17 PM
at November 21, 2008 5:07 PM
Abdullah
Would you be prepared to repudiate verse 9:29 whereby non-muslims must be made to feel saghirun (belittled/humiliated/inferior)and the associated dhimma laws in Islamic jurisprudence - in all schools? Oe do you view these laws as just and tolerant?
Would you - Abdullah - be prepared to condemn the social and psychologigal oppression of, and the atrocities committed throughout the centuries against the millions of native people who refused to convert after their countries were colonized by the Arabo-Muslims?
(Please don't givw mw that military service they don't do line - I know better)
Justice
Swilliams
Posted by: swilliams at November 21, 2008 5:38 PM
Abdullah
Would you be prepared to repudiate verse 9:29 whereby non-muslims must be made to feel saghirun (belittled/humiliated/inferior) and the associated dhimma laws in Islamic jurisprudence - in all schools? Or do you view these laws as just and tolerant?
Would you - Abdullah - be prepared to condemn the social and psychological oppression of, and the atrocities committed throughout the centuries against, the millions of native people who refused to convert after their countries were colonized by the Arabo-Muslims?
(Please don't givw me that military service they don't do line)
Justice
Swilliams
Posted by: swilliams at November 21, 2008 5:42 PM
"You recognize nothing of the reality of Islam" --the Slave to a pagan moon god
Of course we do - Evil. Evil is the reality of Islam.
Posted by: darcy at November 21, 2008 5:51 PM
swilliams, you might as well ask a broken toaster if it will repudiate burnt toast. Abdullah is a poorly constructed machine. He is no longer a rational human being. Asking him questions is a fruitless exercise, so much so that anyone who asks him questions risks looking like an idiot.
Posted by: DenverRodeo at November 21, 2008 7:50 PM
Abdullah,
You said I should take it up with Al Qaeda, but the thing is, they are quoting (accurately) your scriptures.
I guess I should take it up with the Qu'ran. Oops. that would mean Islam, wouldn't it?
Also, I really want to know about how you deal with Muhammad: I mean, it seems you have a real conundrum on your hands.
Either he's really good, and what we think of as evil just doesn't apply to him,
or
He's not the excellent example of conduct the Qu'ran says he is, which means that it's imperfect.
or
the history is wrong, which means that we can't trust a single thing we know about him.
So, it's your religion; seriously, how do you reconcile the things he did that seem evil to me and most observers with the idea that he's a great example to follow?
Posted by: Mo Foe at November 21, 2008 8:20 PM
Asking him questions is a fruitless exercise, so much so that anyone who asks him questions risks looking like an idiot.
Posted by: DenverRodeo at November 21, 2008 7:50 PM
Really. Why don't you ask questions to a fence post, too?
Posted by: darcy at November 21, 2008 9:29 PM
Looking like an idiot is your opinion, I guess, especially if AM is the only one reading what's written to him. Other Muslims read JW, you know.
Posted by: champ at November 22, 2008 12:55 AM
Abdullah,
I noticed you didn't deny that all schools of Islamic jurisprudence teach that jihad means warfare on unbelievers and that it is mandatory on all Muslims.
Also you wrote that in the Qu'ran: "There is no call to take over the world. It does not say that any where. It does not imply that. It does not mean that."
What about the verses that say "fight until all religion is for Allah." I'd say at the very least, it implies that.
And this is worrying to all of us who like freedom.
And until this is not true, suspicion of any Muslim organization will not go away.
And another statement I made which you have not refuted is that wherever Islam is dominant, freedoms, innovation and prosperity are curtailed, people are brutally punished for thought crimes, women are oppressed--and this is the shining example of Islam?
You can have it, but leave me out.
Any system without fun is not welcome in my world.
Posted by: Mo Foe at November 22, 2008 1:12 AM
you might as well ask a broken toaster if it will repudiate burnt toast. Abdullah is a poorly constructed machine. He is no longer a rational human being. Asking him questions is a fruitless exercise, so much so that anyone who asks him questions risks looking like an idiot.
Posted by: DenverRodeo at November 21, 2008 7:50 PM
Denver,
I don’t think the JWers who engage with Abdullah believe that they are reasoning with him. Some people are merely annoyed in the moment and are sounding off at Abdullah. Others here believe they can trip him up or expose him, or otherwise show that he is being evasive at points (e.g., see “personal apostasy” “treason” “terrorism” “civilian” etc) where an honest person would give answers sufficiently clear to satisfy an understandably skeptical audience. I think in many cases these JWers are not doing this for their own education but rather they are doing it for others such as new readers. Some also may believe that if you let him write enough eventually, perhaps through irrepressible arrogance and triumphalism or letting his public-relations guard down momentarily, he’ll reveal something incriminating about himself or Islam. Some may wish to expose Abdullah’s lack of knowledge of his own religion (e.g., the contextual circumstances purportedly associated with Quran 9:29).
Granted, apologists such as Abdullah do attract a disproportionate amount of attention here, disrupting threads and consuming time and space. (The problem is worsened when everyone piles on). There is a balance between gaining the benefit of putting the apologist on display as an exemplar of Islam’s various ills versus having to pay the costs that the apologist, in his jihad of tongue and pen, incurs on the site and its readers. When these costs sufficiently outweigh the benefit...well, I’ll leave that for others who are in a position to decide.
at November 22, 2008 3:54 AM
Posted by: swilliams at November 21, 2008 12:22 PM
To Darcy
"...But if the intention is to run him off, no need to stoop that low, you can just mention equality in Islam, the dhimma system, and the abject "guarantor" requirement for Black Africans in some Muslim societies. That always does the trick."
Posted by: Abdullah Mikail at November 21, 2008 1:16 PM
To Swilliams,
""trick" or treat? Hmmmm? Let's find out...
I am very confident and secure in my faith and well versed in what it teaches.
I will entertain any question you ask."
Posted by: swilliams at November 21, 2008 5:42 PM
To Abdullah
"Would you be prepared to repudiate verse 9:29 whereby non-muslims must be made to feel saghirun (belittled/humiliated/inferior) and the associated dhimma laws in Islamic jurisprudence - in all schools? Or do you view these laws as just and tolerant?
Would you - Abdullah - be prepared to condemn the social and psychological oppression of, and the atrocities committed throughout the centuries against, the millions of native people who refused to convert after their countries were colonized by the Arabo-Muslims?
(Please don't givw me that military service they don't do line)"
-------------
Abdullah
You are confident and secure in your faith until you are confronted with the ugly truth.
I rest my case.
Swilliams
at November 22, 2008 9:46 AM
Kinana of Khaybar -- I completely agree with your comment. Someone is an idiot if they thought that they were making progress with AM, but most of us see the bigger-picture when throwing questions at him.
Posted by: champ at November 22, 2008 1:57 PM
Eastview,
You obfuscate.
I did not ask anything about Barbary Pirates…I asked about proof of his opinion of Jefferson’s motivation for getting a Quran…
Abdullah Mikail @ 1:57 PM
So, Abdullah, even though you didn't ask about it, given the ensuing discussion do you understand now about the role the Barbary Pirates played in Jefferson's dalliance with the Qur'an?
Posted by: Eastview at November 22, 2008 2:55 PM
testing
Posted by: CGW at November 22, 2008 3:44 PM
"da'wa" time is long over on this board , muslim.
Go conspire with your "brothers".
Posted by: CGW at November 22, 2008 3:45 PM
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