I don't think we should paint Islam with such a broad brush. As one who has traveled to the region a number of times, and done my share of reading on the subject, I have found some elements of Islam to be truly inspiring. I have also, on a couple of occasions, had Islam lead me back to true Chrisitian principles, that have been lost in our enlightenment indifferentism.

Posted by: fairuzfan at November 28, 2008 12:20 PM

The United States will not exercise the Tancredo Option but Israel might.

Posted by: SaracensAtTheGates at November 28, 2008 12:20 PM

Correction: He was a REAL 'evil warlord', a real profit, but absolutely a FAKE prophet. Evil hate manual is a great description and who can argue with 'Mein Qurampf'. The last sentence in the article says they 'had died...'no, they were executed and probably for the islamic crime of being Jewish.

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 12:21 PM

Fairuzfan, maybe not Islam itself, but we must defeat the extremists.

Christopher Hamilton
The Right Opinion, for the Right Wing

Posted by: Christopher Hamilton at November 28, 2008 12:22 PM

@Fairuzfan

Nazism wasn't all so bad either, it had a sense of organization, was wonderful at building infrastructure, bridges, highways. It had formidable plans for a new Berlin under the lead of Albert Spear and they came up with the Beetle car. They had a knack for scientific research, fostered creativity in aerospace and missile technology and had the V2 been released a bit ahead of time they might have defeated the whole world singlehandedly.

Of course they didn't like Jews so much, but hey, no one is perfect....

Posted by: maxilo at November 28, 2008 12:36 PM

'I have found some elements of islam to be truly inspiring'...... islamic dominated peoples shouldn't be painted with a broad brush, but islam is what IT IS. Read it's history, read it's documents, read the commentaries of it's greatest adherents, understand it's stated goals and take a close look at how people who are dominated by it live. It inspires me to hate and resist it as satanic oppression. I for one will never submit to this sh*t and I will never even admit to any good in it because there is no good in it! UNDERSTAND you dumb knuckleheads? In the words of a famous American 'Give me liberty or give me death!'

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 12:39 PM

This is so very sad, especially since I saw their pictures over on Atlas Shrugs and they became very real to me. Just like Sarah and Amina. I fell in love with those girls, their sweet faces and bright eyes and they were already dead. Now this couple who had children who will now grow up orphans.

Any words of wisdom or justification you can offer us, Abdullah/Mike. Tell us again how peaceful your religion is.

Posted by: Isabellathecrusader at November 28, 2008 12:51 PM

AM should hide in shame for converting to a satanic cult and being a vile traitor

Posted by: Péguy at November 28, 2008 12:56 PM

Christopher: I can agree the extremists should be confronted and defeated, but that does not appear to be Mr. Spencer's assertion for this thread.

Maxilo: I think the comparison to Nazism is rather off base. For starters, Iran still has thousands of Jews. If they were Nazis, as some Jewish supremacists would like us to believe, their 29-year-old Islamic regime would have killed them all off a long time ago. So, why haven't they?

CJK: I think Islam has some very positive elements, elements that can stand as an important moral ocrrective to some of the things that go on in our AMerican society. For example, Islam, in unity with true, classic Catholic Christian thought, and natural law pagan philosophers, opposes usury. This is a far cry from the enlightenment-bred rapacious Americanist thinking of our day, which, incidentally, has touched of a monumental financial meltdown. Also, calling people 'dumb knuckleheads' really isn't very appropriate. That would be like my calling you an ignorant American yahoo. I would never think of doing that.

Posted by: fairuzfan at November 28, 2008 12:56 PM

Bless their souls

Posted by: chep at November 28, 2008 12:58 PM

"our enlightenment indifferentism."
-- from a posting above

Why does acceptance, or enthusistic embrace, of the Enlightenment lead to what the poster in question blandly describes as "indifferentism"? Does he think religious belief the only conceivable way to avoid this "indifferentism" (it hath a noble ring, and is one of those words as much fun to write as to say aloud) which he apparently and gravely deplores?

Posted by: Hugh at November 28, 2008 1:05 PM

FAIRUZFAN: "I think the comparison to Nazism is rather off base. For starters, Iran still has thousands of Jews. If they were Nazis, as some Jewish supremacists would like us to believe, their 29-year-old Islamic regime would have killed them all off a long time ago. So, why haven't they?"

RESPONSE: In point of fact, Iran's Jewish community is today a fraction of what it was 30 years ago. Most have left; some have been executed as "Israeli spies."

Your seeming indifference to the ugly fate of Iran's Jews and the fact that you embrace so much of Islam indicates to me you are either a Muslim masquerading as a Christian, or you are a Christian thoroughly conditioned into a psychological dhimmitude.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 28, 2008 1:09 PM

Eleytheria ´h Thanatos "Freedom or Death"

I feel with the parents and relatives of the people murdered in Mumbai.

I´m sure the mohameddans will say it´s Bomb ay´s own fault they attacked it, hey the name is - was so inviting to them, it made them do what they are best at, killing and destroying. this whole "play" reminded me of Nord-Ost in Moscow, or Beslan.

Posted by: eleytheria-h-thanatos at November 28, 2008 1:14 PM

George Orwell -- remember him? He's everyone's hero, isn't he? Christopher Hitchens fait son petit Orwell, doesn't he?

Here's a note from the past, to some no doubt surprising, because it is by Saint Orwell:

"You cannot be objective about an aerial torpedo. And the horror we feel of these things has led to this conclusion: if someone drops a bomb on your mother, go and drop two bombs on his mother. The only apparent alternatives are to smash dwelling houses to powder, blow out human entrails and burn holes in children with thermite, or to be enslaved by people who are more ready to do these things than you are yourself; as yet no one has suggested a practicable way out."

—George Orwell, reviewing Arthur Koestler’s Spanish Testament

for the magazine Time and Tide, Feb. 5, 1938.

Posted by: Hugh at November 28, 2008 1:15 PM

I forgot to mention Fairusfan's reference to "Jewish supremacists"...

Apparently, his/her magnanimity felt towards Muslims doesn't extend to Jews.

All the more reason to suspect him/her as being a Muslim interloper.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 28, 2008 1:15 PM

Here in Finland, the media drags out its "favorite expert" who defines the whole attack taking place in Mumbai as a domestic issue, though we have already found out the some of the terrorists were British citizens of Pakistani origin.

Posted by: kgs59 at November 28, 2008 1:18 PM

Here in Finland, the media drags out its "favorite expert" who defines the whole attack taking place in Mumbai as a domestic issue, though we have already found out the some of the terrorists were British citizens of Pakistani origin, which clearly makes it an act of international Islamic terrorism.

Posted by: kgs59 at November 28, 2008 1:19 PM

How many more such outrages, how many more wanton murders of innocent people, will the non-Muslim world endure before it wakes up?

Our political elite, along with the MSM, has now rejected and removed Islam as a reason for Jihadi terrorism . The word “Muslims” cannot be mentioned, even when all the terrorists are Muslims, and no other common trait can be identified. If this is the guiding principle, then of course it becomes impossible to explain the cause of all this violence by “Britons”, “Pakistanis”, “French”, or whatever. It is then no surprise that the whole thing is “mysterious”, as the BBC puts it.

This is akin to the situation when it was accepted that the earth was the centre of the universe. It then became very difficult to explain planetary motions – they were “mysterious”, as the BBC would have put it. However, Copernicus revolutionised the way we look at the universe and ourselves, then all planetary motions were explicable in a simpler form.

It all depends on the perspective one chooses, be it the solar system, or life in general.

Copernicus though had to be careful, as overturning deeply held dogma is a dangerous game. Robert Spencer, you are in the same position – trying to overturn accepted dogma and replace it with the truth.

Posted by: DP111 at November 28, 2008 1:19 PM

Outlawing usury is in effect an evil when imposed on society in the islamic manner. By stifling economic activity, society as a whole suffers which in turn pleases the islamic god. What does 'rapacious American thinking' have to do with anything? Why is it that when trying to defend unworkable idiotic islamic principles, people always use seemingly relevent examples of The West at it's worst? Never mind that 'usury' is one of the integral reasons that the living standards here in The West are what they are, which by the way displeases the god of islam. On our worst day we are still far superior to anything islam can offer. AND YOU CAN BET THAT This ignorant American yahoo will fight to the death against the contemptible satanic system which oppresses all decent people unlucky enough to live under it's yoke of iron.

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 1:21 PM

The nazis had MILLIONS of Jews within their borders before the war started.

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 1:22 PM

"AM should hide in shame for converting to a satanic cult and being a vile traitor"

If you're referring to "Abdullah Mikhail", you're asking way too much of a brainwashed robot. In a sane Texas in a sane world, he should only hide in fear of you know what.

Posted by: DenverRodeo at November 28, 2008 1:23 PM

Each time an atrocity occurs in some part of the world, the media knit their brows and ponder the deep problem whether the perpetrators were al Qaeda or some other organization; often the terrorists themselves helpfully offer a name that they just now invented. So, by now the media archives list a couple of hundred "organizations" all behaving the same way in the name of Allah, and it never occurs to our deep thinkers that, if those people all do the same things and all profess the same motives and ideology and all look forward to the same glorious future, then perhaps the very profusion of names proves that they don't need a central organization and that any bunch of true believers can gain access to the wherewithal and training to blow up buildings and commit mass murder. But this fact, clear to anyone who can see, is invisible to news agencies and governments that call terrorists militants.

Posted by: Aileen at November 28, 2008 1:34 PM

How many more such outrages, how many more wanton murders of innocent people, will the non-Muslim world endure before it wakes up?

As long as we continue to accept the non-Islamocentric theory of terrorism.

Posted by: DP111 at November 28, 2008 1:36 PM

I don't think we should paint Islam with such a broad brush. As one who has traveled to the region a number of times, and done my share of reading on the subject, I have found some elements of Islam to be truly inspiring. I have also, on a couple of occasions, had Islam lead me back to true Chrisitian principles, that have been lost in our enlightenment indifferentism.

Posted by: fairuzfan at November 28, 2008 12:20 PM

Oh, STFU you obvious Mohammedan! "Islam lead me back to true Christian principles!" -LAUGH OUT LOUD! How many LOL's can I fit on this page?

LOL to the one millionth power.

Obvious troll Mohammedan. Go back to Yemen with your evil "religion."

Posted by: darcy at November 28, 2008 1:44 PM

British Muslims killing Hindus and Jews in India, the people whose civilizations prospered 1600 years before the advent of Islam.

Posted by: Mladen at November 28, 2008 1:50 PM

Fascinating quote from Orwell, Hugh.

I'm currently in an email discourse with an old friend - a liberal, of course - who insists that "violence begets violence" at the same time he insists he's not a pacifist. The quote will serve me well.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 28, 2008 1:51 PM

They threaten with death all the time. They hate our freedom and would enslave us to their evil ideology. It's Islam stupid.

Posted by: Battle_of_Tours at November 28, 2008 1:56 PM

This is not a religious issue. It is a political issue which uses a religion -- something altogether different. There is an unholy interaction between the despotic governments throughout the Muslim world and their increasingly ultra conservative clerics to do one thing and one thing alone -- oppress and control their own people. Once accomplished, they plan to "spread the wealth" to the rest of the world. Those of us who would rail against Islam fall right into the hands of this unholy alliance. Case in point -- the establishment of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1928 has been revealed to have been spearheaded by the British occupiers of Egypt along with its King Fouad I, in order to suppress the nationalist movement of the Wafd party in Egypt at that time.

The USA did something similar in supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan to help overthrow the regime of the USSR.

I am rereading Orwell's "1984". Remember the daily 2 minutes of Hate all party members had to attend? (How about the hate speech spewed in the mosques every Friday?) Once a year, there was the week of Hate "celebration" that whipped everyone into a "patriotic" frenzy. As far as it looks to me, what is happening in India is the inevitable expression of an entire region (the ever expanding Islamic world) manifesting the brainwashing of HATE. This process uses the religion of Islam for its purposes of subjugating the masses and extending its power. Whether or not Islam itself is susceptible to being used in this manner is not the issue. What the world is dealing with now is a political movement, the likes of which we have never seen in the modern era. This movement uses religion to control millions of people. It is being used to keep the living conditions of these people so horrific that their only escape will be found in the afterlife. It is being used to manipulate these people to be used as human weapons in the service of this political entity.

Let us be aware, so that we do not become complicit in this process. This is not about a religion. It is about how this religion is being used as a utopian ideology (such as communism) to achieve world domination, nothing more and nothing less.

Posted by: srbuss at November 28, 2008 1:58 PM

After 9/11 America and the West should have removed every Muslim from their lands. They should have halted all flights from Islamic Lands to the West and kept the Islamic lands purely for the purchase of Oils. If they didn't comply then it should have been a case of sell us Oil or else we'll come and take it, for ourselves for good.

What amazes me so far is that America dropped to H Bombs on Japan to end their involvement in the War. This did cost lives no doubt but ended up saving the deaths of far, far more. A couple of key drops(not necessarily Nuclear) in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia will send a clear warning that if they continue their attack on the West, then we will have no choice but defend ourselves with vicious force.
I'm frankly sick of hearing the typical left wing mantra of "But there are lots of innocent people who do not believe in violence and are not terrorists blah, blah" when in all reality if they were then they'd be up in arms and doing their utmost best to end the so called "radicals" and "hijackers of Islam" by stopping them dead in their tracks, removing them from their mosques, removing the Imams from the mosques who preach the hate etc etc but somehow I don't think they ever will.

What does the West need to make them realise that Islam(violent Islam) is growing and changing back into what it was 1400 years ago, to true Islam? How much more evidence do they need?
The same thing will happen. "Brown and Bush will appear on the TV, along with other Western countries' heads of state and say that "Islam is a Religion of Peace and these people are just hijackers of that political religion".
As usual the white elephant grows ever larger, the politicians more deaf and blind and more Western Citizens fall victim to the 'Religion of Peace'.

(7th time at trying to post this)

Posted by: Richard the Lionheart at November 28, 2008 2:07 PM

FAIRUZFAN: "I think the comparison to Nazism is rather off base. For starters, Iran still has thousands of Jews. If they were Nazis, as some Jewish supremacists would like us to believe, their 29-year-old Islamic regime would have killed them all off a long time ago. So, why haven't they?"

Fairuzhfan, a few hundred thousand European Jews, including several thousand German Jews survived the Nazis, too. That doesn't mean the Nazis weren't trying to kill them all.
Iran has settled for the short-term expedient of driving them out because it fears the repercussions of killing them in the Nazi fashion. But there's little doubt that the long-term aim is to kill them.

Posted by: ebonystone at November 28, 2008 2:08 PM

He thinks "violence begets violence" does he? What does he think of the violence unleashed by the armies of the United States and Great Britain during World War II? Was that acceptable, or was that intolerable to him? Violence by the intended or actual victim against a cruel and violent enemy is usually the only thing that rescues you.

In the case of the world-wide Jihad, however, it is the lack of intelligence, the lack of imagination, the lack of low cunning, the sentimentalism where ruthless realism is called for, that puts undo influence on violence -- that is, military force -- when there are so many ways to weaken the Camp of Islam, to keep it off-guard, and to buy time in order to better educate Infidels so that they will support, will even clamor, for other measures to be taken to make their own countries more, rather than less, vulnerable.

Posted by: Hugh at November 28, 2008 2:08 PM

fairuzfan

I remember you. You are a Muslim. How dare you come here telling lies, on a day when two beautiful Jewish people, Rabbi Gabriel and his wife Rebekah, who never hurt anyone in their whole lives, who exercised a ministry of loving hospitality, lie dead in their blood...all because Quran, Sira and Hadith teach Muslims to hate Jews.

*DON'T* you *dare* tell us garbage about how wonderful Muslim Persia was for Jews. As you open your mouth the sky turns black and the earth cracks at the magnitude of the lie.

The only time Jews could be said to have had it good, in Muslim Persia, was during the rule of the late Shah Reza Pahlavi. That a Jewish community survived *at all*, in Persia, throughout the centuries of Muslim chaos, despotism, pogroms, forced conversions, false accusations, tortures, public humiliations, robberies, rapes and abductions, in the depths of an abyss of oppression such as most of us in the West can barely imagine and would never wish to inhabit, is no thanks to Islam, but thanks to YHWH who preserved them by a miracle.

See Bat Yeor, 'The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians Under Islam', and check the index to find the sections dealing with the plight of Jews in Muslim Persia.

See Laurence Loeb's book 'Outcaste: Jewish Life in Southern Iran'.

And see Andrew Bostom, "Shiite Iran's Genocidal Jew-Hatred":

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=7134DF10-DD44-40D0-B899-CCDC7F3D3B8C

I also commend to any new readers here who may still labour under the delusion that Jews had it good in the Muslim world, Andrew Bostom's monumental encyclopedic scholarly anthology, 'The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: from Sacred Texts to Solemn History'.

Then you will understand completely why a bunch of Muslim jihadists conducting a military raid - an act of open warfare - on a vast city in India, would single out, as one of their targets, a hostel for travellers, run by Orthodox Jews. And why they would gleefully kill an unarmed Jewish man, and his wife, and their young Jewish guests.

Just two examples from the damning and irrefutable mountain of evidence compiled by Bostom.

Sirhindi, d. 1624, an Indian Muslim Sufi 'saint' (may his name be erased), wrote, 'Every time a Jew is killed it is a benefit for Islam'.

In Morocco in the early 16th century another Sufi Muslim cleric, Al-Maghili, wrote, 'Love of the Prophet [Muhammad] requires hatred of Jews'...and stirred up a pogrom in which every Jew in the city of Touat was murdered.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at November 28, 2008 2:28 PM

I am not Jewish: I am a Gentile Christian. But I think it appropriate to place on record here, as we reflect on the death of this young rabbi and his wife, in India, and on the deaths of so many others, at the hands of hate-filled antisemitic Muslim assassins, the Mourner's Kaddish.

"Yit-gadal v'yit-kadash sh'may raba b'alma dee-v'ra che-ru-tay, ve'yam-lich mal-chutay b'chai-yay-chon uv'yo-may-chon uv-cha-yay d'chol beit Yisrael, ba-agala u'vitze-man ka-riv, ve'imru amen.
Y'hay sh'may raba me'varach le-alam uleh-almay alma-ya.

Yit-barach v'yish-tabach, v'yit-pa-ar v'yit-romam v'yit-nasay, v'yit-hadar v'yit-aleh v'yit-halal sh'may d'koo-d'shah, b'rich hoo. layla (ool-ayla)* meen kol beer-chata v'she-rata, toosh-b'chata v'nay-ch'mata, da-a meran b'alma, ve'imru amen.

Y'hay sh'lama raba meen sh'maya v'cha-yim aleynu v'al kol Yisrael, ve'imru amen.

O'seh shalom beem-romav, hoo ya'ah-seh shalom aleynu v'al kol Yisrael, ve'imru amen.

* Add on Shabbat

English

Magnified and sanctified be G-d's great name in the world which He created according to His will. May he establish His kingdom during our lifetime and during the lifetime of Israel. Let us say, Amen.
May G-d's great name be blessed forever and ever.

Blessed, glorified, honored and extolled, adored and acclaimed be the name of the Holy One, though G-d is beyond all praises and songs of adoration which can be uttered. Let us say, Amen.

May there be peace and life for all of us and for all Israel. Let us say, Amen.

Let He who makes peace in the heavens, grant peace to all of us and to all Israel. Let us say, Amen."

Hindu posters may, if they wish, also share with us whatever form of words is deemed appropriate for grieving the death of innocents at the hands of murderers.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at November 28, 2008 2:59 PM

This isn't about religion? Is that supposed to be clever? cute? or just plain stupid? The height of denying the obvious. CURRENTLY our most dangerous enemy is the fifth columnists within our lands. Denying and suppressing the religious aspect of our struggle is far and away their most sought after goal; doesn't that tell us something? Communism was never a driving force among the populaces within the communist nations and I can't think of any suicide bombers among them. All these enemies of ours springing from diverse languages, nations, and tongues worship the same man, mohammed(PBUH). They have been at war with mankind since the Th. century non-stop because their holy (small h) literature commands them to. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION sure right if you say so.

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 3:07 PM

7Th. century

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 3:10 PM

Fairuzfan or Fayrouz Fan ??
(I like her songs too.)
I find your assertion that "some elements of Islam to be truly inspiring" to be a puzzle to me. Many Christian branches state that truth and goodness found in other religions, are really the work of God's Holy Spirit.
As the Qur'an was written 600 years after the New Testament, what specifically are your referring to? What is "truly inspiring" that didn't come originally from the Bible? What new teachings were revealed?
Can you list 6 or more?

Posted by: DhimmiNot at November 28, 2008 3:34 PM

Cornelius, maybe an even better Orwell quote:

"Pacifist propaganda," Orwell wrote in the 1940s, "usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other, but if one looks closely at the writings of the younger intellectual pacifists, one finds that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the United States. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn violence as such, but only violence used in defense of the western countries."

Posted by: DenverRodeo at November 28, 2008 3:36 PM

I've come to the conclusion that trying to make people aware about the hate filled tenets of Islam is a lost cause.

Just for curiousity's sake I spent some time reading comments about the Mumbai massacre on one of the more popular leftist blogs (Somethingawful), one of the marginally more intelligent ones as they automatically ban "truthers".

Whenever the discussion focused on why the Jewish centre was targeted by the Jihadists the posters showed nothing but total incomprehension and bewilderment. Not a single one of them could think of a possible reason. Not a single one showed any awareness of the hundreds of negative references, about infidels generally and Jews specifically, contained in the Koran and the Hadiths.

Amusingly, there were some posters who identified themselves as muslims who suggested that involvement of the Jewish Centre was merely by chance. Another reason for the general ignorance displayed on forums of that kind could be that the administrators tend to ban any poster reckless enough to make any reference to Islam's tenets, not that Muslims have ever made any serious attempt to keep its teachings a secret.

Posted by: Ahem at November 28, 2008 3:53 PM

There is a real danger in not taking into account how Islam is being used for political purposes. Robert Spencer points out the need to support all attempts to reform Islam and how it is being applied in today's world. With over 1.3 billion Muslims worldwide, to do otherwise is what is really STUPID. A look into how Islamic clerics have always been aligned with the prevailing governing authorities in all Islamic countries since the 7th century points to the relationship between Islam and politics. If we in the West alternately deny this relationship either out of unbridled fear and hatred or, conversely, political correctness and pluralist idealism, we merely play into the hands of this process.

The enforcement of Islamic (shar'ia) law is the real enemy at work here, as it is a recipe for the subjugation of human rights at the hands of a political/religious interpretation of what works for the prevailing power authority. Please think about this and its implications.

Posted by: srbuss at November 28, 2008 3:56 PM

Hugh,

No question you're right, we have fought this war unintelligently and unimaginatively. But I happen to feel that a plodding steadfastness of purpose...ala Gen. Grant (and I mean in an ideological, not military sense) will in the long run be more effective than Machiavellian cunning.

Machiavellian cunning may win battles, but it is moral and ideological clarity that will win the war.

DenverRodeo,

Even if we take just this part of the quote...

"Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other"...

...it is usually false and is, like multiculturalism, a relativist flight from discernment and truth.

While in most conflicts between people and nations, both sides share a DEGREE of responsibility, usually it is one side OR the other that is MORE directly responsible.

Certainly that is the case in WWII and the Cold War, and it is true today in the so-called "War on Terror".

Posted by: Cornelius at November 28, 2008 3:57 PM

Hugh: “George Orwell -- remember him? He's everyone's hero, isn't he? Christopher Hitchens fait son petit Orwell, doesn't he?”

I remember Christopher Hitchens! GOD IS NOT GREAT – RELIGION KILLS – no surprises there:

“Bombay also used to be considered a pearl of the Orient, with its necklace of lights along the cornice and its magnificent British Raj architecture. It was one of India’s most diverse and plural cities, and its many layers of texture have been cleverly explored by Salman Rushdie – especially in THE MOOR’S LAST SIGH – and in the films of Mira Nair. It is true that there had been intercommunal fighting there, during the time in 1947-48 when the grand historic movement for Indian self-government was being ruined by Muslim demands for a separate state and by the fact that the Congress Party was lead by a pious Hindu. But probably as many people took refuge in Bombay during that moment of religious bloodlust as were driven or fled from it. A form of cultural coexistence resumed, as often happens when cities are exposed to the sea and to influences from outside. Parsis – former Zoroastrians who had been persecuted in Persia – were a prominent minority, and the city was also host to a historically significant community of Jews. But this was not enough to content Mr. Bal Thackeray and his Shiv Sena Hindu nationalist movement, who in the 1990s decided that Bombay should be run by and for his coreligionists, and who loosed a tide of goons and thugs onto the streets. Just to show he could do it, he ordered the city renamed aqs “Mumbay”, which is partly why I include it in this list under its traditional title.” (Quoted from p.20).

“ … exposed to the sea and to influences from outside”? Indeed – the Muslim jihadists came by boat this time with bloodlust and Islam on their minds.

Posted by: Ipso Facto at November 28, 2008 4:00 PM

fairuzfan

You said…

“I think Islam has some very positive elements, elements that can stand as an important moral ocrrective to some of the things that go on in our AMerican society…..”.

One society hyperventilates at a crescent moon, and the other society actually landed men on that moon! Now tell me again what we can learn for them? Your moral correctives are inferior and backward, and will kill the golden goose called technology and science. Not to mention the immoral treatment of women, the destruction of individual rights, and the return of slavery your “moral corrective” would bring.

Posted by: greatcometof1577 at November 28, 2008 4:01 PM

Saying 'relationship between islam and politics' belies ones ignorance of islam, for islam and politics aren't related... THEY ARE ONE. islam literally tells you how to wipe your as* and I'm not kidding.

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 4:03 PM

After 9/11 America and the West should have removed every Muslim from their lands.

That was my inclination on 9-12 also.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at November 28, 2008 4:07 PM

Please explain to me where the USA or Britian have any responsibility for starting WWII except maybe by not arming quick enough.

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 4:09 PM

The only way islam could help anyone become a better Christian is to see what happens when you become the opposite of Jesus Christ.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at November 28, 2008 4:16 PM

Correction: He was a REAL 'evil warlord', a real profit, but absolutely a FAKE prophet. Evil hate manual is a great description and who can argue with 'Mein Qurampf'. The last sentence in the article says they 'had died...'no, they were executed and probably for the islamic crime of being Jewish.

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 12:21 PM

I'm sad to see that my post to which CJK responded above was taken off.

Posted by: darcy at November 28, 2008 5:04 PM

Rodeo,

If I wasn't clear...

...it is the premise of the pacifists that is "usually wrong", not Orwell's statement.

I happen to think Orwell was a giant, like Robert Conquest. Both were committed socialists who then saw the evils of socialism up close and personal and became the intellectual vanguard of anti-communism.

Ibn Warraq and the late, great Anwar Sheik are probably the closest equivalent in today's anti-Islamic vanguard. Neither have the intellectual and scholarly bona fides of Orwell or Conquest, but both are/were every bit as courageous if not more so than their Cold War counterparts.

PS - Robert, the Type Pad problem is becoming worse; it's a deterrent to even trying.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 28, 2008 5:38 PM

PS - Robert, the Type Pad problem is becoming worse; it's a deterrent to even trying.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 28, 2008 5:38 PM

Really. It's a real drag having to sign in all the time. And then 2 or 3 times before it works.

Posted by: darcy at November 28, 2008 5:54 PM

I just read this comment on another site. What do you think?

"Myth of Muslim toleration: Don’t be fooled by the "tolerant" face of Muslims you meet in the Western world today. Islam has historically developed in four stages: 1. Evangelism. 2. Consolidation of power. 3. Revolution 4. Islamic State. Muslims would love to see Canada and the USA become Islamic states but are only at stage one: Evangelism! Islam has not changed its methods since Muhammad 1400 years ago. Muslims are tolerant, when they are powerless, but this veneer of toleration evaporates when an Islamic state is formed."

Posted by: darcy at November 28, 2008 6:08 PM

I would characterize the spread of islam with the motto 'whatever it takes'. Deception, death, destruction, infidelity to so called core islamic principles, anything that will achieve islamic domination. The ends absolutely justifies the means even if only a burning hulk is left to take. Therefore the 4 stages mentioned are only a rough outline. Remember,'whatever it takes' which has often meant outright conquest when feasible....Which is really the preferred method because of the booty gained by outright conquest; slaves,sex-slaves,houses, etc.

Posted by: CJK at November 28, 2008 6:25 PM

Cornelius,

The Orwell quote I gave you pretty much says what you said -- the pacifists aren't really pacifists, they just don't like American and British wars; Western pacifists support in one way or another wars against the West, but they are opposed to war against the non-West. Why? Because they think only the West (mostly Americans) wages imperialist wars, and everybody in the non-West is just "freedom-fighting" against "oppression". What the hell's wrong with Western pacifists? And why do we have so many? And how can we neutralize them as soon as possible?

Posted by: DenverRodeo at November 28, 2008 7:02 PM

I want to offer my heartfelt condolences to the family of the slain jewish family. They and the rest of all the other victims did not deserve death.
Unfortunatly we all live in a world that is under siege by the forces of islam. No country is safe, eventually they will create havoc in every country if they are not completly destroyed.

Remember the film Lord of the Rings- the ORKS remind me of the muslims

Posted by: rammer at November 28, 2008 7:36 PM

Fairuzfan,
Let me go out on a limb here and guess you are a Christian of Lebanese background who is a fan of Fairuz, an Arab Christian singer.

http://www.fairuzfan.com/biographies.php?itemid=23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairuz

But instead of becoming a bold defender of your faith in the face of monumentally bigoted and unjust murderous attacks by Islamic terrorists, as has Brigette Gabriel, you have taken the route of a dhimmi quisling, and become a pathetic Islamochristian and Arab nationalist (racist), like Sirhan Sirhan.
As to why Jews are only relegated to dhimmi inferiors in Iran rather than killed outright; it is because the Iranian mullahs are strict followers of Islam, and Jews, Christians and Zoroastrians are "people of the book" and are allowed to live as dhimmis if they obey Sharia law. If you are looking for people killed outright in Iran for their religious beliefs, look to Bahai's, who are virtually wiped out in their native Iran. Amadinijad stated these reasons when asked why Bahai' is not allowed to exist in Iran while Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism are.
Sharia finance is even worse than usary, which is illegal in the West, by the way. At its fundamental level, sharia finance is nothing more than interest by other, less clear means.

http://sheikyermami.com/2008/10/28/sharia-finance-uk-we-know-it-doesnt-work-but-lets-have-it-anyway/

As coersion to use sharia finance increases, ways to make it more profitable and efficient compared to non-muslim finance will force it to adopt more and more corrupt and untransparent methods. Actual, non-pious muslims will ensure it becomes a mockery and a joke of any pretense it had to being a moral system. It already has, just the joke is not widely known yet. But that is no surprise, since some people still don't know Islam inspires terrorism as well.

Posted by: Max Publius at November 28, 2008 7:37 PM

"What the hell's wrong with Western pacifists? And why do we have so many? And how can we neutralize them as soon as possible?"

RESPONSE: The Western pacifist is very different from his Eastern counterpart. In the East, pacifism has profoundly philosophical and ethical roots.

In the West, it seems very different. The most self-absorbed, infantile personalities can be and often are pacifists.

I believe the mindset is a reach for moral superiority, one that - like all superiority complexes - is actually rooted in feelings of inadequacy; the self-hating Westerner is alienated to begin with...and finds intellectual justification for his failures in a deflection of his own culture.

He perceives estrangement from the "other" as not only unenlightened, but parochial and plebeian...and his hatred of his own culture is seen as a moral virtue, a sign of his "open mind", of his intellectual sophistication, and of his empathy for those who are "different".

That's my take.

Posted by: Cornelius at November 28, 2008 7:49 PM

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Posted by: Mohammad at November 28, 2008 9:43 PM

"After 9/11 America and the West should have removed every Muslim from their lands."

That is an outrageous statement, unbelievable!

You obviously haven't read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...

Posted by: Mohammad at November 28, 2008 9:48 PM

It is good to know that Fairuzfan is willing to stand over the bodies of this murdered American Rabbi and his wife while extolling the inspirational nature of Islam.

These Jihad terrorists clearly found aspects of Islam to be quite "inspirational" as well, to the great sorrow of 1-year-old little Moshe, who is now an orphan.

To the great sorrow, as well, of all the Indians, and Britons, and Americans, and others, everywhere, mourning the dead and injured in Mumbai. To the great sorrow, really, of non-Muslim victims of Jihad "inspiration" all over the world.

Fairuzfan, I hope the inspiration you have received from Islam stands against all the carnage, and oppression, and abiding sorrow that Islam has inspired throughout its fourteen century history.

Posted by: gravenimage at November 28, 2008 11:18 PM

That is an outrageous statement, unbelievable!

You obviously haven't read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...

Posted by: Mohammad

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is not a suicide pact.

But that's just what you Muslims hope it is for us. Meanwhile, all the Muslims nations of the world as represented by the Organization of Islamic Conference reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, so take your false self-righteousness elsewere.

Posted by: DenverRodeo at November 29, 2008 12:25 AM

Where can I enlist in Dumbledore's Army?

Posted by: RKMacUalraig at November 29, 2008 12:56 AM

Rammer, more like the Skexies from 'The Dark Crystal,' what with the bloodlust, the brain-sucking (Muslim necrophiliac zombization) and the corpse mutilation.

Mohammad, you obviously haven't read the Alien and Sedition Act, the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or Michelle Malkin's 'In Defense of Internment.' Legally we are under no obligation to not detain, inter, deport, imprison, or even hang anyone who dares utter a single Islamic "prayer," as doing so constitutes treasonous sedition. You understand abrogation, as in, a non-Muslim marriage (i.e., non-incestuous Sharia sex slavery) is abrogated when Muslims attack unarmed infidels in unprovoked night raids and systematically kill, rape, torture, plunder, and enslave them? People abrogate 100% of their civil and human rights when they commit treasonous sedition. Their nation is no longer under any obligation to protect or even tolerate them. Human rights are a two-way street, but being a Muslim, and therefore by definition a mentally ill, malignant narcissist, I wouldn't expect you to understand that or any other principle of human rights. Human rights are, by their very nature, universal. That means that your perverted line of thinking - whereby only Muslim men are human and everyone else is either a mutilated, undead corpse, parasitic, sex-slave baby factory to be raped, enslaved, and sold, or an infidel ape/pig to be murdered, tortured, plundered, raped, enslaved, and extorted - is completely antithetical to any moral or ethical ideal, be it universal or human rights.

We're sick to death of hearing Mohammedans exploit human rights ideals as they violate them day-in, day-out. We're sick of your hypocrisy. We're sick of your moral equivalence, your tu quoque arguments, and every other logical fallacy that nobody who possessed the logical faculties of even a brain-damaged five year old would dare spew at reasonable, decent, thinking, moral, ethical, civilized, evolved, outbred human beings. We're sick of being told by pedophiles who rape and mutilate their daughters and pimp them into incestuous Sharia sex slavery out of a deluded sense of supremacy, a total lack of morals, and severe mental illness that we're immoral because we engage in usury, which created every civilized society on this planet and allowed my parents to rise up from poverty into living the American Dream par excellence. We're sick of being told how poor you are, and of hearing you beg for a handout while you reject legitimate education and refuse to adopt the Judeo-Christian work ethic, or the Hindu work ethic, or the Japaneses "Shinto-Buddhist" work ethic, again, out of your deluded sense of entitlement, supremacy, laziness, lack of ethics and morals, and stupidity brought on by refusing legitimate education, combined with millenia of "divine" inbreeding.

Removing every Muslim, every Bill Ayers, every Barack Obama, and anyone else hell-bent on destroying the civilization which our forefathers worked their asses off and fought and died for, and which we ourselves fight for and work our asses off and pay through the nose to sustain is not "outrageous." It's sane, it's just, it's decent, and it's the right thing to do, which is why our laws permit us to do so. Unfortunately we do not enforce those laws yet. The fact that it hasn't happened is "outrageous," literally. I'm more than outraged that this didn't happen, that it continues to not happen, and that it will have to be nearly intolerable before the inevitable, i.e., it happening.

Posted by: jdamn at November 29, 2008 1:01 AM

That was my inclination on 9-12 also.

Posted by: interestinconundrum at November 28, 2008 4:07 PM

.. until 09-17: http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html

Posted by: Alert at November 29, 2008 1:57 AM

"Where can I enlist in Dumbledore's Army?" - from a posting above.

You enlisted when you came on board here...

In a sense, all the regular posters here (except, of course, for the occasional Mohammedan 'boggarts' and 'dementors'), all those who are resolved to oppose Jihad and Sharia and to expose the jihad and sharia agenda at every opportunity, *are* the real-life equivalent of Rowlings' fictional 'Dumbledore's Army'.

I chose my nom de plume - which is short for '[member of] Dumbledore's Army' - in order to express that correspondence, or that analogy.

I could have chosen 'Order of the Phoenix' but thought that would be too high-falutin'...the real-life Order of the Phoenix, going up against the real-life Death Eaters, are those who are right on the front line with targets painted on their shirts: all non-dhimmified Jews, the IDF, Mr Spencer, Mr Geert Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Bat Yeor, Magdi Cristiano Allam...

Once I said to an Israeli Jewish blogger, who was talking about her young Israeli nephew's passion for Harry Potter, that she should tell him he saw a member of the *real* Order of the Phoenix every time he looked in the mirror, and that HQ was down at the local synagogue...

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at November 29, 2008 2:19 AM

"Where can I enlist in Dumbledore's Army?" - from a posting above.

You enlisted when you came on board here...

In a sense, all the regular posters here (except, of course, for the occasional Mohammedan 'boggarts' and 'dementors'), all those who are resolved to oppose Jihad and Sharia and to expose the jihad and sharia agenda at every opportunity, *are* the real-life equivalent of Rowlings' fictional 'Dumbledore's Army'.

I chose my nom de plume - which is short for '[member of] Dumbledore's Army' - in order to express that correspondence, or that analogy.

I could have chosen 'Order of the Phoenix' but thought that would be too high-falutin'...the real-life Order of the Phoenix, going up against the real-life Death Eaters, are those who are right on the front line with targets painted on their shirts: all non-dhimmified Jews, the IDF, Mr Spencer, Mr Geert Wilders, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Bat Yeor, Magdi Cristiano Allam...

Once I said to an Israeli Jewish blogger, who was talking about her young Israeli nephew's passion for Harry Potter, that she should tell him he saw a member of the *real* Order of the Phoenix every time he looked in the mirror, and that HQ was down at the local synagogue...

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at November 29, 2008 2:23 AM

"After 9/11 America and the West should have removed every Muslim from their lands."

That is an outrageous statement, unbelievable!

You obviously haven't read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...
Posted by: Mohammad [TypeKey Profile Page] at November 28, 2008 9:48 PM

Maybe you would care to explain why Western countries are legally bound to adhere to the "Universal" Declaration of Human Rights but not one islamic hellhole, irrespective of U.N. membership, does the same. Why are the hypocrites that run the U.N., the OIC, exempt from this Declaration? Why can't Christians build churches in islamic countries, especially Saudi Arabia, that bastion of "interfaith dialog and harmony"? When did it become incumbent on the West to allow its avowed enemies to infiltrate its lands and establish fifth columns to destroy them from within? Saudi Arabia does not allow immigration, only temporary workers who are prohibited from practicing their religions unless they happen to be muslims.

Saudi Arabia pays for mosques to be built all over the West yet arrests, tortures, and sometimes executes "temporary workers" for practicing their own faiths. The "Universal" Declaration of Human Rights looks good on paper but is ignored by the islamic world, which DEMANDS that the West follow it to the letter! I am SICK OF ISLAM'S HYPOCRISY!

Posted by: Susanp at November 29, 2008 2:33 AM

Mohammed

I'd rather take the Cairo declaration of human rights, flip it around interchanging Islamic and non-Islamic, and then applying it.

You people don't belong in our lands.

Posted by: Infidel Pride at November 29, 2008 2:54 AM

Islam is the root, terrorism is the fruit.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 29, 2008 6:14 AM

Mohammad,

It does not suprise me that there is growing anger against the Muslim community because it is the same community that brought this just anger against it because the Muslim community has not cleaned its house of Islamofacism and its supporters. It has not done anything to rid it of such radicals. So it is asking for trouble by living in deniel and not taking any actions against the Islamofacists.

Posted by: bigcatgirl13106 at November 29, 2008 6:21 AM

Susanp

Definitely agree - what is emerging is one rule for Islam - one of religious intolerance - violence against women - honor killings -- and another rule for the rest of humanity - which is expected to show tolerance towards Islam.

What might emerge though - is Islamic nations painting themselves into a box - where it will be understood that if you are Muslim - you will not wish to show tolerance toward others - which might mean - as Muslims they will automatically be excluded from - a variety of activities or opportunities open to others -

Partly this is already happening - for example Germany would prefer not to take Islamic Iraqi refugees - and likely the World Cup football games will be held in South Africa over Egypt because of the threat of Islamic violence there.

So Muslims can have their protections - in respect to human rights - but what other nations will do is to simply avoid using them - or wont allow them to take part - without mentioning it - they will be left off the list.

Posted by: Cole at November 29, 2008 8:53 AM