BOO-YAH. Hit 'em again.

Posted by: undaunted at January 1, 2009 12:37 AM

Let fly, IAF! Such mosques are munitions dumps of hate, militantcy, and murderous designs.

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 12:39 AM

Happy new year, Gaza.

Posted by: Callidus at January 1, 2009 12:42 AM

Pure Chutzpah!

Are you taking notes, Mr Messiah-Cmdr in Chief?

Posted by: Sir Oinks Alot at January 1, 2009 12:49 AM

What? Olmert grew a pair?

Posted by: Sounder at January 1, 2009 12:57 AM

Yee-Haw! Hit 'em where it hurts, and even where it don't! Go Israel!!!!!

Posted by: champ at January 1, 2009 1:23 AM

Wire reports mention five such mosques destroyed. CBC TV indicates that a ground offensive is imminent, sans a HAMAS cessation of rocket fire (Olmert thinks like a caretaker; a hudna will do, if it lasts until his successor is elected).

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 1:30 AM

The Muslim jihad gang bosses were so cocksure that they had Ehud Olmert and indeed the whole of Israel transformed into a squeaking, cowering, shivering dhimmi mouse.

Now, all of a sudden, the mouse has turned at bay, opened its mouth revealing enormous razor-sharp steel teeth, and has started biting their fingers off.

Go mouse! Keep biting HARD.

Bye-bye Mosque-full-of-rockets. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Just keep on dropping those bombs, Israel. Gaza is so stuffed full of armaments and HE and fuel dumps that sooner or later you'll strike it lucky: you'll drop just one little bomb in the right place and set off a chain of secondary explosions all the way down the strip and back up again.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at January 1, 2009 1:34 AM

It was probably struck during the prayer hour for women, and the secondary explosions were from the bomb-vests of all those Mohamma-donnas described in the preceding article.

Posted by: ebonystone at January 1, 2009 1:39 AM

"Munition Dump" indeed. Good description. Call it a Mosque if you will but once weapons are stockpiled there it's nothing more than a munitions dump and will be treated accordingly. That secondary explosion confirms the contents. Bull's Eye!

Posted by: alexon at January 1, 2009 1:55 AM

There's probably a lot of other 'mosques' like that. One good hit deserves another...

Hamas is still firing rockets...Israels disproportionate response is not quite disproportionate enough. But I'm sure they know that and are doing what they can to remedy the situation...

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 1:57 AM

OT

in the absence of a thread dedicated to the subject of the New Year (western/ christian calendar), I will post here something that seems to me worth remembering and reflecting upon.

It is the famous Christmas Broadcast of King George VI, from 1939.

To revisit it, in these dark and dangerous days, as both the Combat Jihad and the Stealth Jihad gather momentum, and as Israel fights for its life against the jihadists of Hamas, and as India vacillates after the jihad ghazi raid conducted against it from Islamic Pakistan, and the Filipino Catholics and Thai Buddhists are perpetually attacked by murderous jihad assassins, is to be moved almost to tears both by certain obvious congruences, but also by the terrible contrast between then and now.

For King George VI could speak of unity and a shared purpose among those opposing the Axis; whereas almost all of those countries and societies presently assailed by Jihad have barely even begun to recognise the name and nature of the enemy.

However: the King's closing words, from the words "I believe from my heart..." speak out of the past as if they were written directly to all who today are gathering themselves to resist Jihad and Sharia.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/OutPut/Page3591.asp

GEORGE VI (r. 1936-1952)

Christmas Day Broadcast, 1939. Britain and France had declared war on Germany just three months earlier on 3 September 1939

'The festival which we know as Christmas is above all the festival of peace and of the home.

'Among all free peoples the love of peace is profound, for this alone gives security to the home.

'But true peace is in the hearts of men,

'and it is the tragedy of this time that there are powerful countries whose whole direction and policy are based on aggression and the suppression of all that we hold dear for mankind.

'

It is this that has stirred our peoples and given them a unity unknown in any previous war.

'We feel in our hearts that we are fighting against wickedness, and this conviction will give us strength from day to day to persevere until victory is assured.

'At home we are, as it were, taking the strain for what may lie ahead of us, resolved and confident. We look with pride and thankfulness on the never-failing courage and devotion of the Royal Navy, upon which, throughout the last four months, has burst the storm of ruthless and unceasing war.

'And when I speak of our Navy today, I mean all the men of our Empire who go down to the sea in ships, the Mercantile Marine, the mine-sweepers, the trawlers and drifters, from the senior officers to the last boy who has joined up.

'To every one in this great Fleet I send a message of gratitude and greeting, from myself as from all my peoples.

'The same message I send to the gallant Air Force which, in co-operation with the Navy, is our sure shield of defence.

'They are daily adding laurels to those that their fathers won.

'I would send a special word of greeting to the Armies of the Empire, to those who have come from afar, and in particular to the British Expeditionary Force. Their task is hard. They are waiting, and waiting is a trial of nerve and discipline.

'But I know that when the moment comes for action they will prove themselves worthy of the highest traditions of their great Service.

'And to all who are preparing themselves to serve their country, on sea or land or in the air, I send my greeting at this time.

'The men and women of our far-flung Empire working in their several vocations, with the one same purpose,

'all are members of the great Family of Nations which is prepared to sacrifice everything that freedom of spirit may be saved to the world.

S'uch is the spirit of the Empire; of the great Dominions, of India, of every Colony, large or small. From all alike have come offers of help, for which the Mother Country can never be sufficiently grateful.

'Such unity in aim and in effort has never been seen in the world before.

'I believe from my heart that the cause which binds together my peoples and our gallant and faithful Allies is the cause of Christian civilisation. On no other basis can a true civilisation be built.

'Let us remember this through the dark times ahead of us and when we are making the peace for which all men pray.

'A new year is at hand.

'We cannot tell what it will bring. If it brings peace, how thankful we shall all be.

'If it brings us continued struggle we shall remain undaunted.

'In the meantime I feel that we may all find a message of encouragement in the lines which, in my closing words, I would like to say to you:

'I said to the man who stood at the Gate of the Year,

"Give me a light that I may tread safely into the unknown."

And he replied,
"Go out into the darkness, and put your hand into the Hand of God {note: YHWH - the God of the Bible - dda}.

'That shall be to you better than light, and safer than a known way."'

'May that Almighty Hand guide and uphold us all."

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at January 1, 2009 1:57 AM

The post by dumbledoresarmy at January 1, 2009 1:34 AM is worth reading twice :)

"all of a sudden, the mouse has turned at bay, opened its mouth revealing enormous razor-sharp steel teeth, and has started biting their fingers off.

Go mouse! Keep biting HARD."

LOL

Go Israel!

Posted by: Mike_W at January 1, 2009 2:01 AM

Pigman stands with Israel

Posted by: PIGMAN at January 1, 2009 2:03 AM

Uh-huh.

Muslim: "Oh please, nice unbeliever, don't blow up our peaceful place of worship!" All the while, stockpiling weapons in it. What's next? Hospitals? GO ISRAEL!!

Posted by: Australian at January 1, 2009 2:35 AM

Yes, Aussie, hospitals. In its perfidy, HAMAS violates every universally recognized convention governing warfare, and of respect for noncombatants.

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 2:47 AM

It's always embarrassing when weapon caches are discovered in mosques. Not that they are there in the first place - that's natural considering what a mosque is meant to do - but the fact that it gets discovered by the police, military or whoever is a significant PR problem.

The Imams, of course, promise to do better next time. As in 'hiding the stuff more cunningly'.

Posted by: Henrik at January 1, 2009 3:34 AM

Mosques being used to store weapons? Nothing new here folks.

Their phony warrior prophet Mo the Butcher, used his very first mosque in Medina as combined prayer place, an arsenal, treasury for loot, harem for his numerous wives and concubines, military headquarters to launch murderous raids for booty and slave women, a prison to keep hostages being held for ransom with which to finance even more raids for plunder, propaganda headquarters for preaching hate against his opponents and a venue for dispensing brutal “justice” to his victims whose only “crime” was to speak out against his tyranny.

Never forget that everything that Mo the Butcher did was sacred and an example to be emulated by his loyal followers. This continues right up to today.

Allah u Kakbar!

Posted by: Shafee al-Zindig at January 1, 2009 4:12 AM

A great start to 2009, after the wretched year that's over.

Happy New Year to everyone @ JW

Posted by: Infidel Pride at January 1, 2009 4:14 AM

This shows two things:

1. Similar duplicity applied to the supposed function of a 'house of worship', as shown in the concepts of Taqiyya and Hudna. Islam formally and religiously sanctions lying.

2. That the addition of an IDF channel on YouTube is long overdue.

No go blow up a few more (then can you come over to Britain for a few days? :)

Happy New Year everybody

Posted by: Un:dhimmi at January 1, 2009 4:58 AM

Finally Israel took Erdogan on his
words: “"Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers."

Encouraging that the Israelis finally got their definitions right:

Mosque: An armoury disguised as a place of worship.

Minaret: An artillery observation post and a snipers position.

Domes: Military equipment storage facility.

The Geneva Conventions allow the use of whatever force is necessary to neutralize combatants who use a place of worship for military purposes. If that requires the complete destruction of the building, so be it. The United States military has been routinely levelling mosques in Iraq that are used by enemy forces for offensive or defensive purposes.

Happy New Year to Israel and JW.

Posted by: Ipso Facto at January 1, 2009 5:37 AM

Go Israel!!! Stop listening to your enemies and hit 'em hard!!!

Posted by: Spot on at January 1, 2009 5:52 AM

Happy New Year.

Does anyone remember the scene with American troops in Iraq, being denied access to a Mosque area some years ago; I can't remember the town - the one where the US commander had his forces kneel un-threatening like, and slowly backed away from the crowd? Well, I was sickened by it. I thought they're all in on it.

I realized that day, intuitively, the possible awful truth about weapons cache in Mosques and Shrines. I just knew instinctively that's all. And hoped upon hope that the commanders on the ground knew the same.

The entire Islamic system as most say on here, is a total system of war. Practiced to perfection.

In time of war, the Mosques are not only rallying points, but ammo and weapons stockpiles.

The pilgramages are used for troop transfer, even safely accross borders.

The Burcas comouflage couriers.

The general population on reward of paradise, shield troops. Do you ever notice when something happens, that Muslim civilians, mostly men of military age, run toward and mill around the scene? Doing nothing, but effectively hiding combatants.

No uniforms insure blending with the general population for guerilla tactics.

The Mosques, off limits to infidels, and no fire zones, serve as command centers, and redoubts - and fiery Friday prayer time, dress rehearsal for real time motivational speeches and spiritual absolution before battle.

What are funerals, to infiltrate replacements? Here is brother so and so, have courage, you are going to replace him. I bet they recruit.

Dar al Islam is one giant bunker.

But I'm sure our generals, notwithstanding the Israelis, know this.

But Islam is a religion of peace.

Posted by: sainte at January 1, 2009 5:54 AM

You can bet that every mosque in Gaza has been used to store weapons, their componemts and the means to manufacture them. So it seems very prudent to hit every mosque in the Gaza Strip and leave none of these repositories of hatred, death and destruction standing. And hitting the mosques is also likely to remove hundreds if not thousands of terrorists and hate-peddling imams as well.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at January 1, 2009 6:35 AM

Let's see. Where do I start?

You people hate Islam. Shocker. While it's true that Islam is a god-awful religion, so are Christianity and Judaism. I've never met a reasonable person who was also deeply religious. Reason and religion, almost by definition, cannot coexist.

Now let's get to the crux of the matter. You people are also extremists. In this day and age, most people run from extremist views. While 29 million visitors (your current count) may seem like a lot, it's really not, especially when you factor in that each click on this site (even from the same IP) counts as an additional visit. That's a good way to artificially inflate your visit count, but it's hardly honest. And getting around 20 comments per story is negligible. And the fact that I have yet to see an opposing comment indicates to me that your popularity isn't all that great. It doesn't matter what view you hold, there will always be opposing views. The fact that I don't see any either indicates censorship or just a complete lack of relevance for this site. For these reasons, I had to contemplate whether posting here was a worthwhile use of my time.

Also, the tone of this site is bordering on the unprofessional. You decry hate speech and hateful actions, while your tone and demeanor are quite similar to those that you hate. That's really not surprising. Often the worst enemies are basically two sides of the same coin.

I read somewhere on this site that Christianity is really the religion of peace. That's complete nonsense. Where do I start? Remember, Hitler was one of yours. What about slavery in Christian countries (cough, US, cough)? What about the Spanish Inquisition? I can easily list 100 examples of the perversions of your religion of peace, but I won't waste my time. Let me try to anticipate some of the rebuttals to my argument.

"Hitler wasn't a true Christian. He warped and manipulated the religion for his own twisted purposes, to the point where it was no longer Christianity." If that's your argument, then realize it's the same argument that every religion, including Islam, has used to defend itself against atrocities committed in its name.

What about slavery? "Well, sure, the US was a Christian nation, but these acts weren't committed in the name of Christianity. They just happened to be Christians who committed these atrocities." Uh-huh. Sure. Very flimsy, but I hear it all the time.

What about the Spanish Inquisition? Honestly, I can't think of a counter to this. This was actually done in the name of your religion.

And what about Iraq? The country's civilian population was decimated (literally) by this unjustified war. But this isn't terrorism because the US has fancy missiles that can be fired from hundreds of miles away with the push of a button. Wholesale destruction of civilian populations isn't terrorism because the tools are so high tech. No car bombs here.

And, finally, I don't want to be racist or profile people. But, let's call it like it is. The site's author may be Christian. There may be regulars here from many religions and nationalities. But the majority of the regulars here are probably Jewish and support Israel.

I'm an atheist (from the US) who hates hypocrisy. It's personally hard to take anyone who posts such inflammatory comments (as are common on this site) seriously if the posters don't give some information about themselves, such as religion, that would identify their motives for posting.

Thank you.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 1, 2009 6:38 AM

Go IDF!!

Blast Hamass into hell!!!

Like David said when Goliath defied the Host of Israel-
1Sa 17:29 And David said, What have I now done? Is there not a cause?

Is there not cause indeed!

Posted by: Dani'El at January 1, 2009 6:49 AM

I'll admit that I got a sentence into the comment directly above from the half-wit conformity hippie before I skipped to comment here. It's nice to see that so many normal people took a few minutes out from the first moments of the new year to express support for democracy and Human decency here.

Like last year and the year before and the year before that, and for all the years past and years to come, I'll be here and I'll wish you all the best for all those years.

Happy New Year.

Posted by: dag at January 1, 2009 6:55 AM

Hey goonie the Atheist,
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Il.

The greatest mass murderers of all time.
All atheists.

What an idiot.

And why shouldn't Jews support Israel?
(I smell a rat!)

I'm everything you hate pal.
A Jewish Christian.
A Messianic Jew.

If you are willing to throw the Jews to the dogs, those same dogs will devour you some day and soon!

Posted by: Dani'El at January 1, 2009 6:56 AM

Hey Dani'El

I don't hate you. What part of my calm and reasoned statement would give you that impression. I don't go around saying "Blast ... to hell". That's because I'm not an extremist. You are. You make my point for me.

I don't know the religion, or lack thereof, of the individuals you mentioned. However, idiocy and fanaticism are not limited to religious people. It's a limitation of the human mind. But you would know more about that than I do.

I don't cling to atheism or feel anything negative when people criticize it. By definition, atheism is a lack of belief in things that cannot be perceived by human senses or instruments.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 1, 2009 7:16 AM

As well, I'm not defending Islam. All things considered, it probably is the worst religion. But Christianity and Judaism aren't far behind.

But you people are extremists. You're as violent and nasty as Islamic extremists.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 1, 2009 7:29 AM

It isn't just what Hamas has been storing in their mosques - rockets and so forth.

Much, much worse is what their preachers have been saying in those mosques.

I think our supposed 'atheist' above - if he *is* a western atheist with a touch of antisemitism, if he isn't in fact a Mohammedan in disguise, playing taqiyya-and-tu-quoque - if he really doesn't know what monstrous, genocidal, hate-and-curse-the-Infidels, we-will-kill-all-Jews-and-dominate-the-world nonsense has been spewing from those mosques, not just under Hamas but before that, all the way back to when Gaza was under Egyptian Muslim control prior to 1967, then he needs to study up on some history.

I know what's been preached in those mosques, the poisoning of minds that has certainly been going on since Nasser's day. The 'prayers' that involve the ecstatic cursing of Jews and Christians and of all 'infidels' - Nonie Darwish mentions those, she describes those cursing prayers as normal, and she lived in Gaza in the 1950s, where she was taught a rabid Jew-hate not only in the mosque, but in primary school as a standard part of the curriculum.

Given what is taught and preached in those mosques, I would feel nothing but grim satisfaction were the IAF to obliterate every last one, with bunker busters.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at January 1, 2009 7:33 AM

Hitler was not a christian... never was. America didn't invent slavery... it ended it. Spanish Inquisition? Really? How far back does your time machine go Goonie? Don't worry, you're not coming across as a racist... just an anti-Semitic fool. And I am not Jewish, but I do support Israel. Islam is as much a political organization as it is religious... and it is all bad.

Posted by: Ethan at January 1, 2009 7:35 AM

From the article "Mosques Behaving Badly":

"There are the bloodstains on the wall, and here it is dried on the floor,' says Abu Muhanad as he walks through a torture chamber in a Baghdad mosque where more than two dozen bodies have been found." -- from this news article

A Master-List of Mosques Behaving Badly should be compiled. That list should include, from U.S. military records, all the shoot-outs in Iraq (and Afghanistan) with people who fired on American soldiers from mosques, or who ran to mosques in order to avoid capture and then used them as places from which to attack Americans (until the Americans stopped, as they eventually did, from holding back).

Such a list should also include the mosques in Western Europe that have been found to contain false papers (sometimes in false ceilings, as in the mosque in Milan on Viale Jenner), including forged passports and national identity documents. And don’t forget the mosques that have been discovered to contain AK-47s, explosives, and videocassettes of beheadings of Infidels, and audiocassettes to whip up the Believers to even greater deeds of derring-do against the Infidels. Yes, all that stuff has been found in mosques, that weaponry, those forgeries and counterfeits, those hysterical whippings-up of hatred for Infidels -- see what Saudi-supplied "literature" has been found in American mosques. By now the security services of the Western world are so used to all of that that they practically yawn at what they find, and often the rest of us find things out piecemeal, from a story here and a story there. But no one connects the dots.

Meanwhile in churches, last I looked, I could find hymnals, the Book of Common Prayer, candles lit in memory of the recently departed, information on volunteering for the food bank and soup kitchen, and disaster relief at home and all over the world, including such relief, notably, in Muslim countries.

Compare. Contrast.

Think.

And think what the ever-increasing presence of those mosques -- so many of them now built, and maintained, by money from abroad -- mean to the indigenous Infidels (and to non-Muslim immigrants, some of them refugees from Muslim supremacism and persecution), to the fabric and the quality of their lives.

For it is clear that the governments of the Western world must now, in order to protect their citizens, monitor those mosques. That means those governments will have to hire agents who 1) know Arabic and other relevant languages, Urdu, Turkish, Farsi, and who are 2) either non-Muslim, but can pass as Muslims (Copts, who are forced to receive some training in Islam, might be helpful; so too would Maronites, Arabic-speaking Jews, Chaldeans, Pakistani Christians, and Berbers who have turned) or, in a very few cases, those who may still call themselves Muslims, but becaues their beliefs have been so etiolated, are more accurately described as "Muslim-for-identification-purposes-only" Muslims. One would be foolish to rely on Muslim agents of the true-blue believing kind, to monitor the khutbas and other goings-on in mosques.

Monitoring the mosques all over the non-Muslim world, of course, is a tall order. And a very expensive one, added to all the other huge expenses incurred in the campaign to make Infidel lands safe from the very people who are, paradoxically, still allowed in, in even greater numbers, as "Muslim refugees" from Muslim lands (this makes no sense) when it should have been clear to eveyone by now what has come of this, and to some it was clear long ago what would come of this immigration of Muslims to the Bilad al-kufr, the Lands of the Infidels. Or rather, it would long ago have been clear, that is, to all who had bothered to study the texts, and the doctrines, of Islam, and the history of Islamic rule over non-Muslims.

These costs that spiral ever upward also include the added expenses incurred by the local police to monitor individuals, but also the costs for the lawyers and judges who must give their time to approving, or explaining, taps and search warrants and suchlike. They include the extra costs of guarding power plants and LNG terminals, and ports, and airports, and bus terminals. They include the costs of marshals on planes, of extra security around government office buildings, and national monuments (e..g., the Statue of Liberty). They include the costs of guarding Christian and Jewish day care centers and schools, churches and synagogues and Hindu temples, even some cemeteries, because of increased threats. areas on and on. Economists need to figure out just what the cost of this internal security against Muslim terrorist threats actually is. It would be instructive for taxpayers to know this: the real cost, in terms of all this monitoring and societal anxiety, and the constant need to worry about the latest demands -- for a prayer room in schools, or a lawsuit demanding that a Muslim woman be shown with her face completely covered for her driver's license, or all the other demands, big and small, ludicrous and plausible, that are made by Muslims who do not believe in pluralism. (That is, they do not believe in it except insofar as in the West they must use it to their own advantage, and only until they attain sufficient numbers.)

It would be instructive for taxpayers to know the full cost of protecting ourselves against (and accommodating with the other hand) those who do not believe that power should flow from the expressed will of the people, but from the codified will of Allah in the shari'a. It would be enlightening to know how much they cost, those who do not believe in the equality of the sexes, nor in individualism, nor in free and skeptical inquiry. Indeed, it is hard to see how, and in what way, Muslims who are true believers can possibly share many of the beliefs that are essential to, and defining of, our civilization. Why then do we so blithely allow ourselves to welcome into our midst, without the slightest qualms, those who do not wish us, our ideals, our society, our legal and political institutions whose principles are flatly contradicted by the Sharia', ,our solicitude for individual rights, our very beings, well? When those who have a duty to ensure that all obstacles to the spread, and then the dominance, of Islam, appear in Infidel lands, how can this be anything but permanent trouble for those determined to retain their legal and political instiutions and social understandings -- that is, the very things that constitute those "obstacles" to the spread, and dominance, of Islam?

We have enough to worry about, at this moment in the heedless history of our giddy globe, and enough serious threats to our well-being. Why should we do things that necessarily will cause us to expend even more of our time and energy and money and attention on a threat that can be diminished, if -- at the very least -- we merely, and sensibly, and justifiably, do not permit the Muslim presence in the Lands of the Infidels to increase, do not permit its institutions dedicated to the spread of Islam in Infidel lands to be funded by malevolent states such as Saudi Arabia? On what theory are we required to endure any of this? When in human history have people done this to themselves? What sort of nonsense is this?

[Posted at August 20, 2008]

Posted by: Hugh at January 1, 2009 7:41 AM

The Friday Prayer sermon, the khutba, can be, and often is, used to whip up murderous hatred for Infidels. And if the country is one dominated by Muslims, so they can with impunity kill Infidels -- as in Pakistan or Bangladesh -- then one can sometimes find, captured on film, the results of such whipping-up of already-deeply-inculcated hatred.

Here's one example, when someone managed to capture on film what so often, over the past centuries, was never captured on film, never recorded, because Muslims were writing the histories of the lands they conquered, and who would bother with such a trivial event as the Muslim murder of an uppity Hindu (uppity because he dared even to be in the vicinity of a mosque, when Muslim feelings were running high):

http://mukto-mona.com/human_rights/ethnic_clensing_Bangladesh.html

Caption:

"Fig: A Hindu being beaten by Muslims in a mosque in Bangladesh. He was captured outside the mosque while going home. After Friday prayers were over, the Muslims came out and grabbed the first Hindu they could. Mr. Vimal Patak a Bangladeshi born Hindu was beaten to death with sticks as the Muslim mullas (priests) chanted "kill the Kafir!" (non-muslim). With folded hands he begged for his life and died a brutal death."

Posted by: Hugh at January 1, 2009 7:45 AM

you know why islam prohibits alcohol?
'cos alcohol is a very ironical drink.it has the ability to make a sane man stupid & like wise it makes a stupid man intelligent. so the so called prophet mohammed,joker that he is, knew that if his dumb followers were to consume alcohol, common sense would dawn on them and he would loose his cult following. so he banned them from having it where as he was drunk fcuking whores everyday till his cock blew up. what du guys think ?

wipe out pakistan from the face of earth, even martians wouldnt want them !

Posted by: hem at January 1, 2009 7:58 AM

Go Israel Go!!!!

Take out all the mosques/munitions dumps. Make sure there are not even boxes of matches left in Gaza.

Loonie, stick around if you want to learn something about the problem, but don't talk crap.

Posted by: dsinc at January 1, 2009 8:01 AM

@ Goonies Lovemart,
Why do jou include Judaism in your 'evil trio'.
Last time i checked Jews don't go around starting religious wars and seeking to actively expand their religion by coverting others to it (by hook or crook).

You claim that you are a atheist. Well why don't you look into the deeds of Stalin, Mao, Kim Jon Il etc etc They were all Atheist commited to a atheist ideology called communism. Those atheist dictators were also big massmurderers.

Furthermore you are saying that they there is a lack of opposing views. Perhaps you should do your research a bit more. Because there are indeed opposing views posted on this site.Look for example for the postings of a dude called Abdullah Mikhail. The fact that you didn't see those postings with opposing views indicates that you did not do your research well. Because there are opposing views (including that of yours) being posted on this site means that their is no censorship over here. So you can stop with your whining about censorship on this site because if there were censorship your B.S. would not be posted.

You say that what we post is hatespeech. Why? Because we realise that islam is a evil creed that is hell-bent on conquering all non-muslim parts of the world and killing/(forcibly) converting the non-muslim populations to their evil creed. Because we know the historical facts about what the islamic forces did in the past and are still doing today (waging Jihad) and we post about those FACTS and their religious justification (the koranical verses and the several Hadiths)for the evil things they did and are sill doing. You call that hatespeech, I call that expressing THE TRUTH and the FACTS. I know that the truth hurts especially for the Politically Correctness crowd or the muslim rats coming over here to drop there Al-Taqiyya postings (lies and deception).

If you are really a atheist and not some muslim rat coming over here to do Al-Taqiyya you need some serious education because you are COMPLETLY BLIND to the treath islam posses. Here's a little fact, if you are really a atheist than the islamic jehadi's will KILL YOU first before a christian or a jew because they HATE atheist more than christians or jews

Posted by: rammer at January 1, 2009 8:08 AM

Goonies Lovemart, I personally know a *lot* of great Christians, who are much better able to differentiate Right from Wrong in these troubled times. These people lead the fray defending the West, and also works hard to convert Muslims away from their mock religion and false 'prophet'.

Atheists usually don't care. That's not what we need.

Posted by: Henrik at January 1, 2009 8:20 AM

It is not new that mosques are being used to store munition and stirr up hate against non-muslims.
In Kashmir the minority Hindu kashmiri pandit population was forcibly expeled because the Mosque loudspeakers used to broadcast hatespeech against Hindu's

http://www.kashmir-information.com/history/symposium.html

I am very happy that Israel bombed the mosque. They need to bomb many many more

Posted by: rammer at January 1, 2009 8:21 AM

All at the same time, Hamas legalizes crucifixion.

Barbarians.

Posted by: Henrik at January 1, 2009 8:26 AM

I think you're on to something here Hem. While alcohol, and sex, are forbidden in Islam, it is alcohol and sex that are held-out as the ultimate reward in paradise for any muslim willing to end his pathetic life. I've never found anything to explain this obvious hypocrisy... doubt I ever will. "Dumb" and "Stupid" do seem to be the operative words here.

Posted by: Ethan at January 1, 2009 8:28 AM

The biggest problem that exists for those of us who understand the jihadist determinations of Islam, and for those that support Israel is the propaganda war that Muslim produce all over the world. Our biggest struggle is with the dhimmi world of the west who is unable to see the forest through the trees because they refuse to take off those rose colored glasses..

Posted by: Mackie at January 1, 2009 8:50 AM

how many missles would the usa allow to hit us soil before we would act. we would totaly destroy those responsible. ask saddam

Posted by: chrisstrom at January 1, 2009 9:20 AM

Goonies wrote- "Hey Dani'El
I don't hate you. What part of my calm and reasoned statement would give you that impression. I don't go around saying "Blast ... to hell". That's because I'm not an extremist. You are. You make my point for me."

D- Reasoned? are you kidding?
There is a thing called righteous indignation pal.
It's only after 60 years of attacks by the arabs that I've had enough.
You are an extremist. You are extremely foolish.

G- "I don't know the religion, or lack thereof, of the individuals you mentioned. However, idiocy and fanaticism are not limited to religious people. It's a limitation of the human mind. But you would know more about that than I do.
"

D- Well, since you are so ignorant about everything else, it makes sense that you don't know that your atheist brothers, Stalin, Mao, Pot, etc are the greatest mass murderer of all time.
And since your fine judgment has concluded that the Pagan Occultist Hitler was a christian?
The rest makes sense about your "reasoned" statements.
And I should add, you and your secular brothers and sisters have murdered over 50 Million unborn children and counting.
So yes you are an extremist and hateful.

G- "And, finally, I don't want to be racist or profile people. But, let's call it like it is. The site's author may be Christian. There may be regulars here from many religions and nationalities. But the majority of the regulars here are probably Jewish and support Israel."

D- Your antisemitism is showing.
Why not be honest and tell us what your really think?
No doubt since you think that Christians are so dangerous, we should be rounded up and "re-educated" Stalin style?
You are the dangerous one, and you and people like you will do your evil until the end.

Posted by: Dani'El at January 1, 2009 9:24 AM

It's funny how the trolls come over here with their postings and in their comments they are complaining and whining about a absence of opposing views and they question the objectivity of this blog and mr. Spencer and accuse him of censorship. Well the very fact of allowing those trolls to post their B.S. overhere just proves those trolls wrong.
Those trolls (muslim + P.C. Crowd) just can't handle the truth about that evil cult called islam that's why they have to resort to their Al-Taqiyya style of lies and distortion, the guestioning of mr. Spencer integrity and knowledge about Islam, and the whining about 'censorship'.

Posted by: rammer at January 1, 2009 9:55 AM

The biggest problem that exists for those of us who understand the jihadist determinations of Islam, and for those that support Israel is the propaganda war that Muslim produce all over the world. Our biggest struggle is with the dhimmi world of the west who is unable to see the forest through the trees because they refuse to take off those rose colored glasses..

Posted by: Mackie

I fully agree

Posted by: rammer at January 1, 2009 9:58 AM

Assuming the incoming force will stop short of conquering Gaza City and put it to siege, Hamas planners propose to wear the siege force down by nocturnal guerrilla forays and force an inconclusive end to the conflict.

http://www.debka.com/index1.php

Bombed mosques eh? Hummm ... sounds like a ceasefire and an apology is in the making and not from the muslim side either. Missiles must have gone astray or something.

Doubt get your hopes up; victory and defeating the enemy is NOT an option in the West you know!

Wouldn't be a bit surprized to see America use some of the bailout money to rebuild the damned things.

Welcome to the "New Year" just the same as the old year!

Posted by: witness at January 1, 2009 10:00 AM

Doubt get your hopes up; victory and defeating the enemy is NOT an option in the West you know!

Don't ...

Posted by: witness at January 1, 2009 10:01 AM

Goony,

I welcome your comments.

As I see it, Islamic terrorists commit violence and accurately base their rationale on the teachings of islam.

When a Christian commits violence or a terrorist act (e.g. Timothy McVey), they inaccurately base their rationale on the teaching of Christianity. They can't support their beliefs by accurately citing scripture which called upon *them* to commit these deeds.

Big difference...

Islamic teaching calls upon - and even instructs - the reader to commit violence - to kill and be killed. The terrorists can accurately point to passages which call upon them to commit these violent acts against "non-muslims". Or even when it it's acceptable to commit violence against fellow muslims.

Christianity does not call upon the reader to commit violence. Any reference to anger or wrath is reserved for the Creator.

And it was fellow Christians that condemned the acts of Timothy McVey and supported his conviction. In contrast to muslims, there were no celebrations in the streets.

Lastly, the war in Iraq was the fault of Saddam Hussien more than any other. His refusal to comply with the 17 UN resolutions which called on him to "account for and destroy his WMD in the presence of UN inspectors", along with his corrupt acts of bribery to UN security council states (ie. oil for food program), his previous use of chemical weapons (15 counts), and his support of terrorist organizations outside of Iraq, and his human rights abuses, were the basis for toppling his regime. And even democrats such as Nancy Pelosi, Joe Biden, and Bill Clinton - among many many others - acknowledge that it was merely a matter of time before he acquired nuclear weapons. So leaving Saddam's regime intact was not a viable option.

Whether we should assist Iraqis in building a new government is entirely another matter.

Posted by: The Cool Ghoul at January 1, 2009 10:04 AM

Goonies Lovemart meets Keeping Low...The movie.
A quasi Apostate Production...Abdullah Mikail director...

The thing these trolls have in common is they ain't got no talent...

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 10:14 AM

As well, I'm not defending Islam. All things considered, it probably is the worst religion. But Christianity and Judaism aren't far behind.

But you people are extremists. You're as violent and nasty as Islamic extremists.
Posted by: Goonies Lovemart [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 1, 2009 7:29 AM

Goonies:

You obviously have not studied theology and are profoundly ignorant of the subject.

You really need to pick up other books on the subject of religion besides those written of Hitchens, Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel C. Dennett, or David Mills -- assuming you are seeing things through their filters.

They are pushing their own "theology" and assume that their readers are so stupid that they don't know the difference.

Pick up the original texts and read them for yourself!

There is NO comparison between islam and Judaism or Christianity!

Don't take my word for it -- see for yourself!

Posted by: witness at January 1, 2009 10:15 AM

Goonies Lovemart-

There is nothing without cause.

All that is is a complex interaction of causes and effects (certainly evolution!)

Atheism in its pure form says there is no first cause. Putting Aside Judaism, Islam or Pyramid Power and belief in ANYTHING in particular YOU are the one imagining a universe of supreme irrationality that 'happened itself'. Atheists have always been the enemies of the common man, common sense and the common causes of decent people against tyrants. They are pitifully smug elitists.

Posted by: poetcomic1 at January 1, 2009 10:22 AM

I have no sympathy for trolls who walk in the door bearing insults...They are not here to learn anything but to squirt their slime all over the thread...That's an Abdullah Production...The others just follow the examples he has set for them...

Notice how the tactics are similar...

Goonies Lovemart is just Abdullah in another incarnationb...

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 10:26 AM

To the goonie guy-
While Constantine used Christianity to inspire his soldiers, the Spaniards were the first to use it for genocide. Where could they have learned how to use religion for conquest and plunder? Well, they had just thrown off the Muslim yoke they had worn for centuries...

Posted by: tropic at January 1, 2009 10:30 AM

I hope in all this latest bullshit between the Jews and Arabs, The USA can leave Isreal to their own demise.I never once saw Isreali troops coming to the aid of allied forces in Iraq or Afganistan or Vietnam or Korea...let them fight their own battles...we don't need them as alies!

Posted by: USAOUT at January 1, 2009 10:57 AM

Mosques are multi-functional facilities.

We have seen more than once torture rooms, arms storage, terrorist training, hate teachings,
sexual abuse and who knows what, that have been discovered in mosques in various places.

Stop all new mosque building in the US at least, shut down those open. They are not 'churches'.

Mosques in Gaza should be legitimate targets...

Give the Imam a phone call, and give him five minutes to clear out...No more than five minutes , any more than that, and he will fill the mosque with children...And call for a press conference...

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 10:58 AM

Maybe Barbara Striestrand and her team of Hollywood Jewish compadres can send military aid money to Isreal and leave my dam tax dollars alone! Americans need to separate themselves for Isreal.

Posted by: USAOUT at January 1, 2009 11:01 AM

Awesome comment about the mosques being used for a lot of horrible things! The allied forces were never supposed to bomb a mosque, I wish we hit a few more of those things like the Isreallis did!

Posted by: USAOUT at January 1, 2009 11:04 AM

If rockets were being launched at the USA, as in Israel/Gaza, Gaza would be a giant parking lot in about a week.

Go get them IAF, enough is enough, take care of business and move foreward

Posted by: trackerjack at January 1, 2009 11:04 AM

The command center of the nefarious Mohammedans blown to bits. Wha ha ha ha ha ha ... gosh these guys are just unbelievable. You know when you look at the whole Islamic world it is a place that is full of deceitfulness, crimes and atrocities, chaos and violence, tyrants and dictators rule, hatred spews, great poverty and selfishness, the Islamic world is worse then hell. It is evil on earth.

Posted by: savsiv at January 1, 2009 11:06 AM

USAOUT...If I were a military commander and found arms, or torture chambers etc, in one type of building, I would not necessarily associate all buildings of the type with offenses. But if I found it at two or three, or more, I would consider all of them legitimate targets...

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 11:17 AM

Thank you for your post duh_swami...
Over in Iraq the Special Forces identified many mosques being used for those illegitimate type purposes, but we still had our hands tied. I am glad that Isreal bombed those bastards!

Posted by: USAOUT at January 1, 2009 11:21 AM

I am all for Isreal taking action, but we here in the USA do not need to get involved. We are finally getting out of Iraq. I spent a year over there in the Army in the streets of Baghdad. It is time for our forces to come home and our economy to get back on it's feet!

Posted by: USAOUT at January 1, 2009 11:25 AM

USAout,
Israel wanted to get involved in the gulf wars, esp when Saddam shot scuds into Israel, but the US would not allow it.
Why?

Our Saudi Masters would lose it.

There are American troops in Saudi Arabia and we don't do anything in the ME without their approval, not Israel's as the lie goes.

How many Saudis are fighting with America in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Oh yeah, they just fly jets into our buildings.

If you want to throw Israel to the dogs, God will give you over to be devoured by those same dogs.

Posted by: Dani'El at January 1, 2009 11:26 AM

Dani'El.....
I know that Saudi is way worse than Israel....
I think we should take over Saudi Arabia more than Iraq! The Saudis are dogs!
But why do we need to support Israel financially?
Why are the US tax dollars paying for their military?

Posted by: USAOUT at January 1, 2009 11:38 AM

I fully support Israel and I am an atheist. In Israel upwards of 45% of Jews there are atheist or agnostic.
I've made my case for Israel on my blog and on Youtube quite a few times.
But what bothers me about some of the comments here is the use of Stalin, Mao, and Hitler as atheist poster boys.
First off, atheists don't have a political ideology. Some of us are Republicans, some are Democrats, some are Libertarians, and very few are Communists.
There are upwards of 45 million atheists in the USA and Canada alone today. How many do you think belong to the Communist Party?

As for Hitler, he believed in the Supernatural, though it was unclear about what he believed regarding Christianity. He did however use German's Catholicism to his advantage when it came to being able to spread anti-semitism. Through Passion Plays and the churhes teaching that the Jews killed Christ, his Final Solution was made more palatable amongst the German people at the time. And the German soldiers wore "Gott mit uns" - God with us, engraved on their belt buckles.

As for Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot, they were people who thought they were God, crazed with power.

Many secular regimes exist today. Notable Sweden and Denmark which have atheist majority populations. You don't see them murdering people do you?

Posted by: The Atheist Jew at January 1, 2009 11:42 AM

USAOUT...I never once saw Isreali troops coming to the aid of allied forces in Iraq or Afganistan or Vietnam or Korea..

I didn't either, but there were reasons for it. The first reason is because they were probably not asked.

The second reason is that pitting Israeli troops against Mohammadans in Iraq etc, would cause riots in Dearborn...And everywhere else. You think the protests are bad now just deploy Israeli troops in Afghanistan...

One reason for the US to support Israel is because of the Islamic agenda of, 'first the Saturday people, then the Sunday people'...
The US government is mostly unaware of this, and is supporting Israel for other reasons.

Just the same it is important to stop this violent Islamic hegemony on Friday, and not let it get to Sat or Sun...That's why Israel deserves our support...

If the terrorists beat Israel, guess who's next...?

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 11:45 AM

USAout,
If the USA doesn't support Isreal.
God will destroy the USA.

As simple as that.

Gaza pullout=Katrina

Posted by: Dani'El at January 1, 2009 11:48 AM

Dan'El....
I can respect your religious views, but come on...
Why is it that the Israeli citizens cannot stand it when USA tourists come to Israel? That's right! We are treated like shit when we visit that country.
Gaza pullout = Katrina? You too are sucked in by the media!

Let Israel fight their own battles!

Posted by: USAOUT at January 1, 2009 11:53 AM

USAout-
You should also know that before the Yom Kippur war in '73 America enforced an arms embargo on Israel.
It was only after Israel was defeating Russian trained and armed Arab armies, that the US got interested during the cold war.

Previous to that Israel funded its armies with contributions from Jews and Christians worldwide to buy arms, mostly French I believe.

The 6 day war that liberated Jerusalem in '67 was won with French Mirage Jets during the American arms embargo.

Today America is arming Israel's enemies like Saudi Arabia and Lebanon. Those arms in Lebanon supposedly for the Lebanese army will find themselves in Hisbollock's hands soon enough.

America seems content to let Amadroolingslob get the bomb, or let Israel go it alone to destroy the Iranian nuke program.
But the Iranians are just as determined to destroy the US as Israel.
Maybe more so.

Posted by: Dani'El at January 1, 2009 11:59 AM

@ USAOUT,
Why are you complaining about U.S. taxdollars being spent in Israel. A multitude of the amount spent in Israel is given by the U.S.A to islamic countries like pakistan, saudi arabie, egypt, the palestinians etc etc.

You complain that Israel had not sent troops to Vietnam, Iraq the reason is that the U.S.A didn't ask for Israeli assistence. But that doesn't mean that there is no assistence from Isreal but the assistence takes place on another scene f.e. on intelligence gathering scene (cooperation between CIA and Mossad).

You want the U.S.A do abandon Israel. that's pretty naive because like the U.S. Israel (and many other countries) are also a target for those islamic jehadi monsters. United we non-muslims stand stronger against the islamic jehadi forces.
Your advise is exactly what those muslims want because if the non-muslims are divided then it will be easy for them to conquer those non-islamic countries one by one and slaughter/forcibly convert the non-muslim populations.

Posted by: rammer at January 1, 2009 12:00 PM

Somehow all this reminds of The Night of the Living Dead. Suicidal zombies relentlessly attacking Israel and getting blown away. I feel sorry for all the people brainwashed into Islam.

I find it disturbing to watch the inroads of Islam into the U.S. Where I work it already is a challenge to speak critically of Islam in any way. One person here was married to a Muslim. Another is a Sufi.

Here's one conversation we had recently:
\
Me: Do you celebrate Christmas?
Person B: Yes.
Me: Do you have a middle eastern background? Your name sounds middle eastern...
Person B: My father converted from Islam...
Person C (widow who had been married to a Muslim): Why????
Me: (to Person B) I guess your father has to be discreet about the conversion?
Person C: not really (chuckling)
Me: conversion is a serious crime in orthodox Islam

At this point I noticed that Person C had a sort of disgruntled look, and I suddenly wondered if her husband had been Muslim.

Me: (to Person C) Was your husband Muslim?
Person C: yes.

Now, knowing Person C, I'm pretty sure she would not be open to any criticism of her deceased husband's religion. She would simply feel hurt. She wouldn't be interested in facts and arguments. And the attitude of most people here would be, don't discuss it, don't make people upset. Sometimes you have to walk a line today between self-censorship on the one hand, and on the other, rant against Islam's jihadist and supremacist elements.

Posted by: traeh at January 1, 2009 12:02 PM

USAout,
Where did you hear that?

Israel loves American tourism.
They rely on it.

No American has had to fight for Israel, ever.
But we have sure had to fight for many others, from Korea to England.

Israel always fights alone.

I encourage you to google, "Katrina Gaza".
And keep an open mind.

BTW, I'm a Messianic Jew.
A Jewish Christian.
Born and raised in California.

But I'm going to Israel to fight in a couple of months.

Posted by: Dani'El at January 1, 2009 12:05 PM

Atheism...Jung said: 'Why deny the existence of the gods, when there are forces in the universe that act, just like the gods are supposed to act'.

However this recognition, does not automatically
mean that there is something there to worship.

Some claim that God is Love...This is not some big guy in the sky who want's to punish us for disobedience. I don't believe that either.

God exists in two forms, the philosophical and the experiential.

Atheists can argue with the philosophical, but not the experiential, because they have not had it, and can't claim it does not exist, or can't be done...
This is simply out of their range of knowledge.

Once the experience of 'love without an object',
is achieved, and your 'cup runneth over', it becomes clear that philosophy has nothing to do with it...

This is the meaning of the Supreme Commandment, and the Golden Rule.

The practice of those is the iceing on the cake,
the 'dew on the rose', philosophy alone is like potato's with no gravy...

Islam has nothing like this and that's it's ultimate downfall...

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 12:24 PM

Atheists can argue with the philosophical, but not the experiential, because they have not had it, and can't claim it does not exist, or can't be done...
This is simply out of their range of knowledge.
*************************
Please. Most atheists that I know, and the blogosphere is full of us, did believe in God and experienced God before losing the belief in God.
At least we assumed God, as any God believer today does.
Most of us just simply say there is no evidence for God just like there is no evidence for an invisible man that is under our beds that does absolutely nothing.

As for the Golden Rule. We as social animals evolved the Golden Rule. Both empathy and guilt are hardwired in us. It is innate.

We wouldn't be here today if we were hardwired to rape, steal, and murder. In fact, we are hardwired to hold the door for old ladies instead.

However, Islam nurtures many Muslims to disregard the Golden Rule in many instances.

Posted by: The Atheist Jew at January 1, 2009 12:32 PM

Maybe Barbara Striestrand and her team of Hollywood Jewish compadres can send military aid money to Isreal and leave my dam tax dollars alone! Americans need to separate themselves for Isreal.

Posted by: USAOUT

I suppose it was more prudent to give $30 billion to pakistan and $60 billion to Egypt. What does the US get out of that? Absolutely diddly squat. And as for you serving in the Army in Iraq, I simply don't believe you. You're just the latest irritating troll in a long line of trolls we've seen on here.

Posted by: Spirit Of 1683 at January 1, 2009 12:35 PM

"Atheism in its pure form says there is no first cause." - poetcomic1

Nonsense. Atheism is its pure form rejects Theism. That is it, hence the term A-Theist.

Once we get past the rejection of Theism based on study of the supporting evidence of Theism an Atheist can be any number of things.

"Atheists have always been the enemies of the common man..." - poetcomic1

More nonsense. Rejecting obviously flawed doctrine for a position which allows many possibilities is not counterproductive as it is this ability not to be pigeonholed that allows us then to study freely. An Atheist can easily be a Deist, have you ever considered that?

Posted by: Xeno at January 1, 2009 12:42 PM

Please. Most atheists that I know, and the blogosphere is full of us, did believe in God and experienced God before losing the belief in God.

I beg to differ with you. If you really had the experience of 'God as Love', you wold not be making absurd and uniformed statements about it.

This has nothing to do with the 'beliefs', that you seem to rely on, as something to reject.

'God is love' is not a belief, it is an understanding and an 'experience'. One that atheists of your variety do not understand, and will probably never understand. That's because it takes effort to experience it, and you have never put forth the effort. You can believe or not believe anything you want, that is no guarantee of a grasp on reality... Your denials fall on barren ground, but you may be able to convince the less intelligent...and the less experienced...

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 1:06 PM

"USAOut" may or may not be a provocateur (a word I prefer to "troll" in order to keep the Three Billygoats Gruff story untainted), but he is certainly missing the point. Israel is an Infidel nation-state. The war being made on it is the same war being made on other non-Muslim states, such as India, and the same war made by Muslims on non-Muslims in countries already controlled by Muslims, where they can get away with whatever they want, and the same war made by Muslims on the legal and political institutions of non-Muslim societies in those non-Muslim lands where Muslims, in numbers large enough to dare to conduct such a war, obviously using means other than outright violence, have been allowed to settle.

Anything that weakens or imperils Israel will be taken by Muslims, and not only by the immediate shock troops of the Jihad -- the Slow Jihadists of Fatah or the Fast Jihadists of Hamas -- as a sign of Allah's munificence, and will merely whet, not sate, Arab and Muslim appetites. Any further surrenders of territory by Israel will weaken the effectiveness of the only thing that keeps the peace between Israel and those eager to destroy it -- that is, the theory, and practice, of Deterrence, or "Darura."

And for the same reason, India should be backed to the hilt over Kashmir, or in any war with Muslim Pakistan. For if Kashmir tomorrow were entrusted to Muslim rule, the Hindus remaining would be, slowly but surely, driven out, and Kashmir completely islamized, and then Muslims in Pakistan, Islam-ruled Kashmir, Bangladesh, and within India itself, would merely set their sights now on repossessing, for Islam, the rest of India.

It was the armed forces of Israel that destroyed the Osirak Reactor. At the time the American government, headed by George Walker Bush, was outraged and condemned the operation. We know better now. It was the armed forces of Israel that recently bombed the nuclear project in Syria that had been placed there by the Iranians, thus performing a service for Infidels and even for Sunni Muslims alarmed about the ambitions of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

The Israeli security services and military have excellent intelligence and agents who possess, as native speakers, the relevant languages. They know the Middle East and they know the Arabs, even if their government does not, it seems, understand the permanent relevance of Islam. Furthermore, Israel is an unshakeable ally of the United States -- unshakeable no matter how badly the American government sometimes treats it. And that is because Israel is part of the same Western world, shares the same civilization. The same cannot be said for the sinister and meretricious Arab "allies" such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt. The former is not now and never has been an ally of the United States. The latter is only an "ally" insofar that the corrupt regime is willing to do the minimum the Americans require of it in order to keep those billions of dollars in aid flowing in. But stop that aid, and the Egyptians -- who are already running diplomatic interference for Sudan over Darfur, and who allowed the smuggling of the huge quantities of missiles and other military equipment through those hundreds of tunnels in Gaza that Israel is now forced, at such great cost, to deal with, and Egypt's official media have eagerly broadcast the darkest antisemitic nonsense (even a television series based on The Protocols), and the Egyptian masses are violently anti-American, despite or perhaps because of that nearly $3 billion a year in American aid (which allows the corrupt rulers the res, or something, to be corrupt about).

The big mistake of the Americans was pushing Israel to surrender the Sinai. It should have been obvious, but apparently was not, that Egypt would pocket the Sinai and then proceed to violate every promise it had made under the Camp David Accords about fostering friendly relatons with, and ending hostile propaganda against, Israel. And it should also have been obvious, but was not to the likes of Carter and Brzezinski (the two men who abandoned the Shah when his regime might have been saved, and who had such touching faith in Khomeini as a "man of faith" who, therefore, must -- so Carter thought -- be a swell guy because that's what, in his narrow schoolgirl view of the world, that's what "men of faith" are), that if the Sinai was to be given away, it should have been given not to Egypt, but to the United States, and the three large and modern airbases that the Israelis had built there been used by the American Air Force. Israel would not have minded. And Egypt? Egypt was starting to get what by now is more than $70 billion, and the Egyptians would have had a hard time explaining why they would not welcome American airbases in the Middle East, right there in the Sinai.
'
But of course American governments are afraid of the Arabs, afraid to ask anything of them as a quid pro quo, and have, even in their giving of aid, taken to adopting the classic attitude of the Jizyah-payers of yore: that is, they give the aid as if it is their duty, and the Muslim recipients (Egypt, Pakistan, Jordan, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Gazan Arabs and the "West Bank" Arabs) all receive the aid they get from the Americans and other Infidels not with any growing gratitude, but as by right, as if they are due that American aid.

No, the bargain for America, and for other Infidels menaced by Islam, is Israel's military might, for it is that which, in the Middle East, in the end has carried the ball again and again and again, defeating Nasser, who was so dangerous, defeating the Soviet effort in Egypt in the 1973 War, destroying the Osirak Reactor, destroying the Iranian-Syrian joint venture in nuclear weaponry, and taking on both Hezbollah, when the Lebanese were incapable of doing so, and now Hamas. Yet there is little understanding, and not enough appreciation, for all that Israel does to defend the West and Infidels everywhere, when it defends itself. Instead, we are asked to believe, by some -- by smiling Arab diplomats, for example -- to ignore Islam, to ignore London and Amsterdam and Beslan and Mumbai and New York and Washington -- and to believe that what is in the Qur'an, Hadith, and Sira hardly matter, but if only Israel is properly pressured, and deliberately diminished or dimidiated in favor of the utterly phony "Palestinian people," all manner of things shall be well. It's nonsense, but for those too lazy to learn about Islam, or too afraid about what they have learned or what they think they may learn, and the duty it then places on them to both instruct and protect those they govern, it's a plausible story. Why not believe it? It makes things so much easier, it means we never have to really think about the Money Weapon, campaigns of Da'wa, and demographic conquest, by Muslims, in the Bilad al-Kufr, or Lands of the Infidels. Yes, it makes things so much easier, if you model your policy-planning on the fabled ostrich whose sand, of course, can be helpfully supplied by any Arab despot. After all, they have so much of it.

Posted by: Hugh at January 1, 2009 1:28 PM

Duh, your God of love is something most atheists attempted to connect with earlier in our lives.
However, we became aware that this God of Love was nothing but a delusion. Many of us fell for it previously, some not so hard as others.

Your God of Love, is just a voice in your head that is trying to deal with the fact that we understand our own mortality and we search for a special meaning, that I hate to break it to you, doesn't exist.

Posted by: The Atheist Jew at January 1, 2009 1:44 PM

Duh, your God of love is something most atheists attempted to connect with earlier in our lives.
However, we became aware that this God of Love was nothing but a delusion. Many of us fell for it previously, some not so hard as others.

Your God of Love, is just a voice in your head that is trying to deal with the fact that we understand our own mortality and we search for a special meaning, that I hate to break it to you, doesn't exist.

Posted by: The Atheist Jew at January 1, 2009 1:44 PM

Been there; done that; Dawkins and Hitchens by any other name is still the same old same old.

Perhaps our disallusionment with God stems from the fact that this "God of Love" doesn't conform to what we demand a God of Love should be -- therefore, he doesn't exist.

If God does exist, perhaps he does what he wants to do without consulting me first? That ain't fair! Boo hoo!

But, magically I can wish him away maybe; I say so therefore it is. (Heck, I should run the EU with this kind of insight!)

Wish I could make some people disappear as easily since they -- like God -- don't exactly match my demands of what I think they should be like; but they alas, they stubbornly refuse to go away! The magic of positive thinking seems to have limits in this case.

Delusion or not -- the mosques can disappear for good as far as I am concerned.

Posted by: witness at January 1, 2009 2:14 PM

Athiest "Jew",

I've been reading your posts above, and have attempted to ascertain a redeeming purpose for your comments, as well as an objective relative to this site, and this thread in particular. Could you perhaps clarify this in your own words?

Also,

Many secular regimes exist today. Notable Sweden and Denmark which have atheist majority populations. You don't see them murdering people do you?

I don't see them as being foremost in protecting their populations from Islamic conquest and "murder", either. Perhaps you can enlighten us on how exactly atheist "regimes" provide the best bulwark against Islamization.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen at January 1, 2009 2:20 PM

"Your God of Love, is just a voice in your head that is trying to deal with the fact that we understand our own mortality and we search for a special meaning, that I hate to break it to you, doesn't exist."

Maybe... But I prefer YHWH, my heavenly loving and forgiving father/mother over that of al-ilah, the moon god of hate and destruction. I've made my choice.

DS-the thing about atheists you don't understand is that they believe only in the power of themselves. Let it go. I like atheists, they have a place in the order of the universe. The funny thing many of them don't end up dying atheists...

AtheistJew-I have a respectful question for you that is slightly off topic. Think of it as food for thought. If you are Jewish-blooded, then why do the Chosen ones have a special marker in their genetics? It is unique among humankind. What is it a sign of? It's not just natural selection either.

Posted by: lorfalcon at January 1, 2009 2:32 PM

COP OUT...However, we became aware that this God of Love was nothing but a delusion. Many of us fell for it previously, some not so hard as others.

Blame yourself for failure...You are convincing me you know absolutely nothing of the subject...

It would be nice if those who had ears could hear and those who have eyes could see, but apparently that is a luxury...Pearls before swine never works...Not that you are a swine, but you missed all the pearls...

We will just have to agree to disagree...This subject is way off topic...

Posted by: duh_swami at January 1, 2009 2:37 PM

"Your antisemitism is showing." -Dani'El

Give me a break. You're spewing your rabid hatred all over the place and you accuse me of being a racist. I'm a racist against Jews because I said Judaism was slightly better than Islam?

Boy, you are a nut. What do you want me to say? I kneel at the ground of all Jews. They are my masters.

"When a Christian commits violence or a terrorist act (e.g. Timothy McVey), they inaccurately base their rationale on the teaching of Christianity. They can't support their beliefs by accurately citing scripture which called upon *them* to commit these deeds." -The Cool Ghoul

I've read the Bible (long time ago). I've never read the Koran, so I can't rightfully compare the two (as I doubt most people here can). However, I think you can probably find a passage in either book and warp it to justify just about anything. Anti-gay fundamentalist Christians routinely use the Bible to justify their views. I'm sure passages in the Bible were used as a rallying cry during the Crusades. My guess is that passages in the Bible were used to justify slavery and the Spanish Inquisition. There are passages in the Bible that are, frankly, ignored now because we would never do such things today. If you insist on pushing the view that the Bible is all love, I'll do the research and post some passages. But I know for a fact that there are passages of a violent and sexual nature in the Bible that are simply largely ignored today.

I think the real difference between Christianity and Islam is the per capita earnings of it's practitioners. Christianity and Judaism are wealthy religions. Islam is a poor religion. I frankly don't know if they're poor because of Islam or it's just a coincidence. But my hunch is that more wealthy Muslims practice a more moderate brand of Islam. But I will say that I think the devotion the religion requires can't be a good thing. The more rituals/devotion that a religion requires, the more it sucks you in and controls you. In that sense, Islam is a problem in my mind. Honestly, I would like to see them dump it. But I'm the type of guy that would like to see all religions eventually dumped as well.

The biggest issue here though is money and land. Being poor radicalizes people because they have no other outlet. You'll see it all over the world and all throughout history. Moderation/liberalism and money go hand in hand. If the US suddenly became poor, we'd be killing each other for scraps.

Any policy that furthers the cycle of poverty in the Middle East will lead to further disenfranchisement and radicalization. That's a fact.

Well, I'm done here. At least there's a modicum of rational thought on this board (~5% or so). The rest is the typical "bomb, bomb, bomb Iran" thinking of radical nut-jobs.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 1, 2009 2:45 PM

"I have a respectful question for you that is slightly off topic. Think of it as food for thought. If you are Jewish-blooded, then why do the Chosen ones have a special marker in their genetics? It is unique among humankind. What is it a sign of? It's not just natural selection either." -lorfalcon

Oh lord. Do Jews want to be treated like everyone else or do they want everyone to kneel at their feet and kiss their toes? What is this nasty sense of self-entitlement that seems to be common among your people. You're not special. You're just like everyone else.

Where does this superiority complex come from? Is that genetic?

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 1, 2009 2:50 PM

Goonies Lovemart trots out the same old, oft-used examples from history to claim that Christianity is as bad, or almost as bad, as Islam. Let's look at them a bit more closely.
(1) Christianity and slavery. In Europe, slavery gradually faded away in the centuries following the fall of the Roman Empire. By the time of the great explorations, slavery was virtually non-existant in most of Europe, although it had been re-introduced, and was flourishing, in the Balkan areas conquered by the Islamic Turks. When European expeditions reached west Africa, they found an already-existing and extensive Islamic slave-taking and slave-trading network, which they then joined as customers, taking slaves to the New World. But there were Christian voices raised against slavery almost from the start, and these voices became powerful enough that by the early 19th c. Britain, and France had outlawed slavery, and the U.S. had prohibited the import of new slaves. So if Christianity is to be loaded with guilt for being involved in slavery, it also deserves the praise for stopping it. Christian countries allowed slavery for ca. 350 years, about 1/4 the time that Islam allowed, and still allows, it. Islamic countries took slaves from the very beginning of Islam, and took them from all of their neighbors: east Africa, west Africa, Europe, central Asia, India, and the East Indies.
(2) Christianity and Nazism. By the time of Hitler's rise to power, Germany was already a mostly secular society, albeit with a vaguely Christian milieu; and most Germans were Christians only by default -- their Christian background only came to the fore on certain occasions like Easter, baptism, and funerals. The Nazi leadership was basically anti-Christian, and looked forward to its suppression after the victory of the Nazis. And as with slavery, if Christianity is to be blamed for the rise of the Nazis, then it must get virtually all the credit for its defeat. Even Stalin turned to the Christian faith of the Russian people to inspire them to resist the Nazis, by re-opening Orthodox churches, and freeing Orthodox clergy from the Gulag.
So if Christianity did have some small part in these evils, it also provided the lion's share of the efforts to defeat and eliminate them.
(3) Christianity and Islam. It would be just as sensible to say that Christianity is responsible for Islam itself. A good part of Mohammed's teachings were based on his poorly understood, hearsay knowledge of Christianity, particularly heretical Christianity. For centuries, the Church regarded Islam as one of many Christian heresies. This insight still proves useful when thinking about Islam.

Posted by: ebonystone at January 1, 2009 3:27 PM

I think the real difference between Christianity and Islam is the per capita earnings of it's practitioners. Christianity and Judaism are wealthy religions. Islam is a poor religion. I frankly don't know if they're poor because of Islam or it's just a coincidence. But my hunch is that more wealthy Muslims practice a more moderate brand of Islam.

@ Goonies Lovemart,
What a bunch of nonsense
The 9-11 hijakers did not come from dirt poor families, they came from well to do middle class families that could afford to send their sons abroad for a education.
Rich Saoudi's give tens/hunderds of millions of dollars to extremist mosques/madrassas that brainwash people with radical wahabi islam
Remember Osama bin Laden, he wasn't poor either.
The reason that muslims go and wage Jihad has NOTHING to do with how rich or poor they are. It has EVERYTHING to do with their 'religious fervor'

Posted by: rammer at January 1, 2009 3:42 PM

I think the real difference between Christianity and Islam is the per capita earnings of it's practitioners. Christianity and Judaism are wealthy religions. Islam is a poor religion. I frankly don't know if they're poor because of Islam or it's just a coincidence. But my hunch is that more wealthy Muslims practice a more moderate brand of Islam.

@ Goonies Lovemart,
What a bunch of nonsense
The 9-11 hijakers did not come from dirt poor families, they came from well to do middle class families that could afford to send their sons abroad for a education.
Rich Saoudi's give tens/hunderds of millions of dollars to extremist mosques/madrassas that brainwash people with radical wahabi islam
Remember Osama bin Laden, he wasn't poor either.
The reason that muslims go and wage Jihad has NOTHING to do with how rich or poor they are. It has EVERYTHING to do with their 'religious fervor'

Posted by: rammer at January 1, 2009 3:46 PM

Clearly, the Religion of Peace has no qualms about using a place of religious gathering as a facility to stockpile or even manufacture WMD's.

Which does not surprise me in the least, because this has occurred many times before, such as in Pakistan.

Nevertheless, such blatant callousness is quite unique among the religious denominations of the world. Try to imagine Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus or members of any other religion abusing their places of worship like that...

Well, I simply can't imagine it.

Posted by: flippin' heck! at January 1, 2009 4:10 PM

Sigh...

Sorry to disappoint, GooniesLovemart. I am NOT Jewish-blooded. I am a white/hispanic female who has some arab blood in her. My question was for the "Atheist Jew." And my implication was a spiritual one, a subtle nuance which I am sorry you did not grasp. It was not meant as inflammatory fodder.

Btw-Mr.McVeigh did NOT commit his terrorism based on his religion, but rather his revolutionary ideology. He went to the Philippines for his terrorist training from ISLAMIC factions there.

Posted by: lorfalcon at January 1, 2009 4:18 PM

Clearly, the Religion of Peace has no qualms about using a place of religious gathering as a facility to stockpile or even manufacture WMD's.

Which does not surprise me in the least, because this has occurred many times before, such as in Pakistan.

Nevertheless, such blatant callousness is quite unique among the religious denominations of the world. Try to imagine Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Buddhists, Hindus or members of any other religion abusing their places of worship like that...

Well, I simply can't imagine it.

Posted by: flippin' heck! at January 1, 2009 4:19 PM

"(1) Christianity and slavery. In Europe, slavery gradually faded away in the centuries following the fall of the Roman Empire. By the time of the great explorations, slavery was virtually non-existant in most of Europe, although it had been re-introduced, and was flourishing, in the Balkan areas conquered by the Islamic Turks. When European expeditions reached west Africa, they found an already-existing and extensive Islamic slave-taking and slave-trading network, which they then joined as customers, taking slaves to the New World. But there were Christian voices raised against slavery almost from the start, and these voices became powerful enough that by the early 19th c. Britain, and France had outlawed slavery, and the U.S. had prohibited the import of new slaves. So if Christianity is to be loaded with guilt for being involved in slavery, it also deserves the praise for stopping it. Christian countries allowed slavery for ca. 350 years, about 1/4 the time that Islam allowed, and still allows, it. Islamic countries took slaves from the very beginning of Islam, and took them from all of their neighbors: east Africa, west Africa, Europe, central Asia, India, and the East Indies." -ebonystone

So your argument is that Christianity allowed slavery for 1/4 the time of Islam. So, what, does that make Christianity 4 times better than Islam? That's one of the weakest arguments I've ever heard, especially when I've already conceded that Islam is a terrible religion. I don't even understand this argument. Slavery was widespread in the past. Virtually every nation and religion had slavery. The point is that Christianity is just another religion, with hypocrites for practitioners. I don't know if every religion is as self-righteous as Christians, because that's who I spend my time with.

"What a bunch of nonsense
The 9-11 hijakers did not come from dirt poor families, they came from well to do middle class families that could afford to send their sons abroad for a education.
Rich Saoudi's give tens/hunderds of millions of dollars to extremist mosques/madrassas that brainwash people with radical wahabi islam
Remember Osama bin Laden, he wasn't poor either.
The reason that muslims go and wage Jihad has NOTHING to do with how rich or poor they are. It has EVERYTHING to do with their 'religious fervor'" -rammer

My guess is that every nation/religion views themselves as superior. It's probably a human failing. My problem is with the hypocrisy. Americans decry Islamic violence while committing unspeakable and unprovoked violence in Iraq. America is responsible for the hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq. To me, it matters little if this violence is provoked by religious views, or hatred of another religion, or just blind vengeance. What difference does it make why violence is committed? Or with what means (i.e. missiles vs. car bombs). Or whether it's committed by a state or non-state entity. This is the very definition of hypocrisy. Decrying the violence of another culture while ignoring the violence perpetrated by your own. Christians and Americans could conceivably hold the moral high ground if they weren't so violent and intolerant themselves.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 1, 2009 4:20 PM

Goonies wrote:
"I've read the Bible (long time ago). I've never read the Koran, so I can't rightfully compare the two (as I doubt most people here can). However, I think you can probably find a passage in either book and warp it to justify just about anything."

Goonies - I don't disagree with the above statement. But I do believe that you are making some invalid assumptions. (as I too once did) Where one may "warp" a passage from the New Testament, one doesn't have to "warp" passages from the koran to justify violence. The reader is actually encouraged to commit violence against the "infidel". It's also important to note that muslims take the koran to be literal and without interpretation. Whereas not all Christians believe the bible to be literal.

Islamics still stone and murder teenage women for having a boyfriend or for even being raped whereas Christ said he who is without sin cast the first stone.

The belief systems are not morally equivalent.

I encourage you to read some of the books that Robert has written to illustrate these differences.

One request - keep an open mind and don't prejudge. Read the books, read from the koran, and read from the New Testament. Then judge for yourself.

Posted by: The Cool Ghoul at January 1, 2009 4:43 PM

Dumbledore's Army wrote, citing King George VI's Christmas Day speech, 1939:

'We feel in our hearts that we are fighting against wickedness, and this conviction will give us strength from day to day to persevere until victory is assured.
.........................

Excellent. And yet I can't help but think of Queen Elizabeth II's 2008 Christmas Day message, followed by a "rebuttal" by Mahmood Achmadinijad of Iran, surely one of the worst examples of what we are fighting. The king was not afraid to call such evil "wickedness".

Have things changed so much in 70 years?

Posted by: gravenimage at January 1, 2009 4:43 PM

although vastly outnumbered goonies in the only person making sense and retaining their patience in explaining what the majority of the world overlooks in its zealous approach towards rightousness. i will not try to pretend to be the most educated or intelligent person viewing these comments,(especially since i have no idea what kind of cut down calling someone a troll is) but i am sure that goonies exhibits much more rationale than the majority of you posting here. I am white with a little native american from the south and fairly young and inexperienced so i certainly have no sort of abdullah ties or whatever trash some of you keep reiterating , but what i have seen on here is disgusting and should be an embarrasment to most people who are able to see past all of the b.s. they are told by their teachers, pastors, presidents, or peers. people with these views are like goonie said, but the flip side of the coin to jihadists of the islamic religion. I think what is the most sad thing here is how little regard for human life there is from people who are supposed to be from religions that are peaceful.

Posted by: yohoho at January 1, 2009 4:45 PM

Goonies wrote:
"I've read the Bible (long time ago). I've never read the Koran, so I can't rightfully compare the two (as I doubt most people here can). However, I think you can probably find a passage in either book and warp it to justify just about anything."

Goonies - I don't disagree with the above statement. But I do believe that you are making some invalid assumptions. (as I too once did) Where one may "warp" a passage from the New Testament, one doesn't have to "warp" passages from the koran to justify violence. The reader is actually encouraged to commit violence against the "infidel". It's also important to note that muslims take the koran to be literal and without interpretation. Whereas not all Christians believe the bible to be literal.

Islamics still stone and murder teenage women for having a boyfriend or for even being raped whereas Christ said he who is without sin cast the first stone.

The belief systems are not morally equivalent.

I encourage you to read some of the books that Robert has written to illustrate these differences.

One request - keep an open mind and don't prejudge. Read the books, read from the koran, and read from the New Testament. Then judge for yourself.

Posted by: The Cool Ghoul at January 1, 2009 4:46 PM

"Mr.McVeigh did NOT commit his terrorism based on his religion, but rather his revolutionary ideology. He went to the Philippines for his terrorist training from ISLAMIC factions there." -lorfalcon

I don't know if this is directed to me, but I never mentioned McVeigh.

Why are people so quick to decry a violent act committed explicitly in the name of a religion while seemingly dismissing an act committed by a follower of a religion (while the act itself is not explicitly in the name of the religion)?

If Christians bomb civilian populations in WWII (repeatedly and with extremely gruesome results) and drop atomic bombs on Japan, this is okay because they're not invoking the name of Jesus Christ? So this is not a Christian act of violence? So this is okay because its a formally declared (and duly authorized) war?

Hypocrisy at its finest. Violence is violence people. Your fixation on a religion as the source of the violence could hold some validity if your own people could manage their extreme violence problems.

Peace.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 1, 2009 4:55 PM

So your argument is that Christianity allowed slavery for 1/4 the time of Islam. So, what, does that make Christianity 4 times better than Islam?

Goonies, don't be any thicker than you have to be.

My point was that while Christian countries did allow slavery for a few centuries, many Christians opposed it from the very start as being morally wrong. In time they gained enough influence to end it, not just in their own countries, but in most of the world (some Islamic countries still practice it.) Slavery was largely eliminated from the Christian world in the Middle Ages. They briefly accepted it again when they established their New World empires, but then rejected it decisively. Islam never opposed it, and still doesn't. Islamic countries gave it up only when occupied by European powers, or when strongly pressured by European powers. As you say, slavery was very widely practiced all over the world for millenia. It was the Christian countries that put a stop to it world-wide, except for the few remaining Islamic hold-outs.

Posted by: ebonystone at January 1, 2009 5:46 PM

"The belief systems are not morally equivalent.

I encourage you to read some of the books that Robert has written to illustrate these differences.

One request - keep an open mind and don't prejudge. Read the books, read from the koran, and read from the New Testament. Then judge for yourself."

You might be right. My opinion of Islam certainly could not get any lower. However, TWO things are required for members of a religion to hold the moral high ground.

1. Their belief system (holy book, etc.) must meet the high standards that you state the Bible does. Okay, I'm willing to concede that fact.

2. The people who follow the religion must live up to the standards of their beliefs. That is where you fail miserably. The only place where Christians live up to those standards is in their own minds, where they ignore their many past atrocities. Perhaps they didn't commit those acts in the name of the Bible. Perhaps they did. Either way, followers of Islam have NOT committed more violence than Christians. The motivations for that violence do not matter to me.

Let's take the Ten Commandments as an example. The prohibition against murder doesn't have caveats and exceptions. It's absolute. The United States and Christian European countries have been INTENTIONALLY bombing civilians in wartime until recently. By what warped sense of logic is this not murder?

The Bible may be better than the Koran. In fact, it may be a lot better. But the people are not.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 1, 2009 5:52 PM

Goonies wrote:
"If Christians bomb civilian populations in WWII (repeatedly and with extremely gruesome results) and drop atomic bombs on Japan, this is okay because they're not invoking the name of Jesus Christ?

So this is not a Christian act of violence? So this is okay because its a formally declared (and duly authorized) war?

Hypocrisy at its finest. Violence is violence people. Your fixation on a religion as the source of the violence could hold some validity if your own people could manage their extreme violence problems."
---------------------------

The above is a non sequitur. WWII wasn't an offensive to convert or subjugate people to a religious ideology.

Islam offers the "infidel" 3 options. Convert, subjugate, or die. No other religious belief system imposes itself in this way against the human race this way.

Every major religion can co-exist with one another peacefully with the exception of islam which can not coexist with any other.

You seem to be interchanging the concepts of violence, self-defense, and pacifism.

Posted by: The Cool Ghoul at January 1, 2009 6:07 PM

All this fighting among yourselves. Sheesh.

Anyway...someone said:

"If Christians bomb civilian populations in WWII (repeatedly and with extremely gruesome results) and drop atomic bombs on Japan, this is okay because they're not invoking the name of Jesus Christ? So this is not a Christian act of violence? So this is okay because its a formally declared (and duly authorized) war?"

It is not violence done in the name of Christianity, that's pretty obvious. Show me where they quoted the New Testament before bombing Pearl Harbour. Show me where they used the Bible to justify their actions. That's the difference, and to say otherwise is just silly.

People of all religions on the planet have participated in war. But there are religions in which you cannot find commands to fight anyone. War, however, is a human endeavor and being religious does not stop you from going to war, especially to defend yourself. There is also a religion which mandates war, and that is Islam. I can tell from your message that you have never read the source documents over the centuries from practitioners and authorities in this religion which stipulates war against others because they are not Muslim and for NO OTHER REASON. You can start with The Reliance of the Traveler. Then buy a good book on Sharia law and all four schools of thought - all of them mandate this. All. Then, if you're brave enough, head down to your local Islamic bookstores and see what they've got on offer. Maybe you'll come across the same vile and appalling hate tracts I found, but alternatively we could all bury our heads in the sand.

These people openly declare that their goal is to a) conquer the world for Islam and b), enforce Sharia upon the nations of the world and that c) killing non-Muslims is an acceptable way to achieve this. I say I like Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, and all the other faiths and non-faiths who dwell in my nation, and Islam is the only one which can't get along and just causes trouble. 2009, everybody rubbing along but the Muslims, who are setting fire to cities and causing destruction of public property to vent their hurt feelings and demanding we kiss their asses to boot. Not up for that, sorry.

Which isn't to say that Muslims can't be peaceful. Sure they can. Most of them, though, if we had to go to war with an Islamic nation, would sooner fight for Islam than for the nations which gave them sanctuary. This is a fact. I recently asked a woman who'd just converted to Islam in America, whose family stretches back generations there, and she said she'd fight with the Muslims against her own country. Sad, sad.

Israel is a buffer state. Israel takes the brunt of the hatred and if it is destroyed, all of that hatred will spill over and we will be next. We're in the firing line already for these fanatics, but you don't know how people think in the Middle East. The Middle East is not run by logic but by a herd mentality and they will believe and do what they are told to do without question. That is the culture they have chosen for generations and their theocratic rulers are a testament to it. Not everyone in the world thinks like Westerners, you are dealing with a very different mindset over there. One without free speech and rational enquiry. The seething masses who kill each other over Islam and questioning Islam will become so emboldened by Israel's defeat that we won't know what hit us. For that and many other reasons, I support Israel 100%. Talk to a big cross section of people from the Middle East, go over there if you can, and you will see precisely what I mean.

We are already bowing to this worldview and censoring ourselves. Perhaps you haven't lived long enough to see times in which free speech was free, but the West is a shadow of what she was because we do not wish to offend Muslims in case they rampage through our cities. I've had enough, personally. These fanatics should understand by now that every single religious and cultural group besides them are against them. That doesn't tell them anything, unfortunately, but when the rest of the world is against you, you need to take a good look at yourself. I have friends of every faith, all of whom, and their oppressed ancestors whom, are no fans of this 'religion of peace.' You'll find every religious and non-religious denomination here besides Muslims to attest to it. So either we're all onto something, or you're the one eyed woman in the land of the blind. I happen to think the former, but if you can show me evidence to the contrary I'll look at it.

Posted by: Infidelicious at January 1, 2009 6:31 PM

All this fighting among yourselves. Sheesh.

Anyway...someone said:

"If Christians bomb civilian populations in WWII (repeatedly and with extremely gruesome results) and drop atomic bombs on Japan, this is okay because they're not invoking the name of Jesus Christ? So this is not a Christian act of violence? So this is okay because its a formally declared (and duly authorized) war?"

It is not violence done in the name of Christianity, that's pretty obvious. Show me where they quoted the New Testament before bombing Pearl Harbour. Show me where they used the Bible to justify their actions. That's the difference, and to say otherwise is just silly.

People of all religions on the planet have participated in war. But there are religions in which you cannot find commands to fight anyone. War, however, is a human endeavor and being religious does not stop you from going to war, especially to defend yourself. There is also a religion which mandates war, and that is Islam. I can tell from your message that you have never read the source documents over the centuries from practitioners and authorities in this religion which stipulates war against others because they are not Muslim and for NO OTHER REASON. You can start with The Reliance of the Traveler. Then buy a good book on Sharia law and all four schools of thought - all of them mandate this. All. Then, if you're brave enough, head down to your local Islamic bookstores and see what they've got on offer. Maybe you'll come across the same vile and appalling hate tracts I found, but alternatively we could all bury our heads in the sand.

These people openly declare that their goal is to a) conquer the world for Islam and b), enforce Sharia upon the nations of the world and that c) killing non-Muslims is an acceptable way to achieve this. I say I like Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, and all the other faiths and non-faiths who dwell in my nation, and Islam is the only one which can't get along and just causes trouble. 2009, everybody rubbing along but the Muslims, who are setting fire to cities and causing destruction of public property to vent their hurt feelings and demanding we kiss their asses to boot. Not up for that, sorry.

Which isn't to say that Muslims can't be peaceful. Sure they can. Most of them, though, if we had to go to war with an Islamic nation, would sooner fight for Islam than for the nations which gave them sanctuary. This is a fact. I recently asked a woman who'd just converted to Islam in America, whose family stretches back generations there, and she said she'd fight with the Muslims against her own country. Sad, sad.

Israel is a buffer state. Israel takes the brunt of the hatred and if it is destroyed, all of that hatred will spill over and we will be next. We're in the firing line already for these fanatics, but you don't know how people think in the Middle East. The Middle East is not run by logic but by a herd mentality and they will believe and do what they are told to do without question. That is the culture they have chosen for generations and their theocratic rulers are a testament to it. Not everyone in the world thinks like Westerners, you are dealing with a very different mindset over there. One without free speech and rational inquiry. The seething masses who kill each other over Islam and questioning Islam will become so emboldened by Israel's defeat that we won't know what hit us. For that and many other reasons, I support Israel 100%. Talk to a big cross section of people from the Middle East, go over there if you can, and you will see precisely what I mean.

We are already bowing to this worldview and censoring ourselves. Perhaps you haven't lived long enough to see times in which free speech was free, but the West is a shadow of what she was because we do not wish to offend Muslims in case they rampage through our cities. I've had enough, personally. These fanatics should understand by now that every single religious and cultural group besides them are against them. That doesn't tell them anything, unfortunately, but when the rest of the world is against you, you need to take a good look at yourself. I have friends of every faith, all of whom, and their oppressed ancestors whom, are no fans of this 'religion of peace.' You'll find every religious and non-religious denomination here besides Muslims to attest to it. So either we're all onto something, or you're the one eyed woman in the land of the blind. I happen to think the former, but if you can show me evidence to the contrary I'll look at it.

Posted by: Infidelicious at January 1, 2009 6:33 PM

All this fighting among yourselves. Sheesh.

Anyway...someone said:

"If Christians bomb civilian populations in WWII (repeatedly and with extremely gruesome results) and drop atomic bombs on Japan, this is okay because they're not invoking the name of Jesus Christ? So this is not a Christian act of violence? So this is okay because its a formally declared (and duly authorized) war?"

It is not violence done in the name of Christianity, that's pretty obvious. Show me where they quoted the New Testament before bombing Pearl Harbour. Show me where they used the Bible to justify their actions. That's the difference, and to say otherwise is just silly.

People of all religions on the planet have participated in war. But there are religions in which you cannot find commands to fight anyone. War, however, is a human endeavor and being religious does not stop you from going to war, especially to defend yourself. There is also a religion which mandates war, and that is Islam. I can tell from your message that you have never read the source documents over the centuries from practitioners and authorities in this religion which stipulates war against others because they are not Muslim and for NO OTHER REASON. You can start with The Reliance of the Traveler. Then buy a good book on Sharia law and all four schools of thought - all of them mandate this. All. Then, if you're brave enough, head down to your local Islamic bookstores and see what they've got on offer. Maybe you'll come across the same vile and appalling hate tracts I found, but alternatively we could all bury our heads in the sand.

These people openly declare that their goal is to a) conquer the world for Islam and b), enforce Sharia upon the nations of the world and that c) killing non-Muslims is an acceptable way to achieve this. I say I like Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, and all the other faiths and non-faiths who dwell in my nation, and Islam is the only one which can't get along and just causes trouble. 2009, everybody rubbing along but the Muslims, who are setting fire to cities and causing destruction of public property to vent their hurt feelings and demanding we kiss their asses to boot. Not up for that, sorry.

Which isn't to say that Muslims can't be peaceful. Sure they can. Most of them, though, if we had to go to war with an Islamic nation, would sooner fight for Islam than for the nations which gave them sanctuary. This is a fact. I recently asked a woman who'd just converted to Islam in America, whose family stretches back generations there, and she said she'd fight with the Muslims against her own country. Sad, sad.

Israel is a buffer state. Israel takes the brunt of the hatred and if it is destroyed, all of that hatred will spill over and we will be next. We're in the firing line already for these fanatics, but you don't know how people think in the Middle East. The Middle East is not run by logic but by a herd mentality and they will believe and do what they are told to do without question. That is the culture they have chosen for generations and their theocratic rulers are a testament to it. Not everyone in the world thinks like Westerners, you are dealing with a very different mindset over there. One without free speech and rational inquiry. The seething masses who kill each other over Islam and questioning Islam will become so emboldened by Israel's defeat that we won't know what hit us. For that and many other reasons, I support Israel 100%. Talk to a big cross section of people from the Middle East, go over there if you can, and you will see precisely what I mean.

We are already bowing to this worldview and censoring ourselves. Perhaps you haven't lived long enough to see times in which free speech was free, but the West is a shadow of what she was because we do not wish to offend Muslims in case they rampage through our cities. I've had enough, personally. These fanatics should understand by now that every single religious and cultural group besides them are against them. That doesn't tell them anything, unfortunately, but when the rest of the world is against you, you need to take a good look at yourself. I have friends of every faith, all of whom, and their oppressed ancestors whom, are no fans of this 'religion of peace.' You'll find every religious and non-religious denomination here besides Muslims to attest to it. So either we're all onto something, or you're the one eyed woman in the land of the blind. I happen to think the former, but if you can show me evidence to the contrary I'll look at it.

Posted by: Infidelicious at January 1, 2009 6:52 PM

Goonies wrote:

"The people who follow the religion must live up to the standards of their beliefs. That is where you fail miserably. The only place where Christians live up to those standards is in their own minds, where they ignore their many past atrocities. Perhaps they didn't commit those acts in the name of the Bible. Perhaps they did. Either way, followers of Islam have NOT committed more violence than Christians. The motivations for that violence do not matter to me.

Let's take the Ten Commandments as an example. The prohibition against murder doesn't have caveats and exceptions. It's absolute. The United States and Christian European countries have been INTENTIONALLY bombing civilians in wartime until recently. By what warped sense of logic is this not murder?

The Bible may be better than the Koran. In fact, it may be a lot better. But the people are not."

-----------------------------------

I don't disagree that all of us - Christians, Jews, Hindu, Buddhist, etc...don't live up to the standard of our beliefs. But I would submit that one shouldn't judge Christianity by the actions of man. I wouldn't reject the belief system or the existence of God based upon man not living up to the ultimate standard.

In contrast, muslims that commit violence against innocents are in fact living up to the standards of their religion. They are merely following its tenets. Therein lies the major difference.

Lastly, we are called to not kill. But we are also allowed to defend from being killed. Lobbing rockets into civilian areas during a "truce" or walking into a cafe and detonating a bomb is not self defense. Whereas Israel, the USA, or the UK try not to target civilians, the Islamics intentionally maximize the loss of innocent life.

Posted by: The Cool Ghoul at January 1, 2009 6:59 PM

All this fighting among yourselves. Sheesh.

Anyway...someone said:

"If Christians bomb civilian populations in WWII (repeatedly and with extremely gruesome results) and drop atomic bombs on Japan, this is okay because they're not invoking the name of Jesus Christ? So this is not a Christian act of violence? So this is okay because its a formally declared (and duly authorized) war?"

It is not violence done in the name of Christianity, that's pretty obvious. Show me where they quoted the New Testament before bombing Pearl Harbour. Show me where they used the Bible to justify their actions. That's the difference, and to say otherwise is just silly.

People of all religions on the planet have participated in war. But there are religions in which you cannot find commands to fight anyone. War, however, is a human endeavor and being religious does not stop you from going to war, especially to defend yourself. There is also a religion which mandates war, and that is Islam. I can tell from your message that you have never read the source documents over the centuries from practitioners and authorities in this religion which stipulates war against others because they are not Muslim and for NO OTHER REASON. You can start with The Reliance of the Traveler. Then buy a good book on Sharia law and all four schools of thought - all of them mandate this. All. Then, if you're brave enough, head down to your local Islamic bookstores and see what they've got on offer. Maybe you'll come across the same vile and appalling hate tracts I found, but alternatively we could all bury our heads in the sand.

These people openly declare that their goal is to a) conquer the world for Islam and b), enforce Sharia upon the nations of the world and that c) killing non-Muslims is an acceptable way to achieve this. I say I like Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Sikhism, and all the other faiths and non-faiths who dwell in my nation, and Islam is the only one which can't get along and just causes trouble. 2009, everybody rubbing along but the Muslims, who are setting fire to cities and causing destruction of public property to vent their hurt feelings and demanding we kiss their asses to boot. Not up for that, sorry.

Which isn't to say that Muslims can't be peaceful. Sure they can. Most of them, though, if we had to go to war with an Islamic nation, would sooner fight for Islam than for the nations which gave them sanctuary. This is a fact. I recently asked a woman who'd just converted to Islam in America, whose family stretches back generations there, and she said she'd fight with the Muslims against her own country. Sad, sad.

Israel is a buffer state. Israel takes the brunt of the hatred and if it is destroyed, all of that hatred will spill over and we will be next. We're in the firing line already for these fanatics, but you don't know how people think in the Middle East. The Middle East is not run by logic but by a herd mentality and they will believe and do what they are told to do without question. That is the culture they have chosen for generations and their theocratic rulers are a testament to it. Not everyone in the world thinks like Westerners, you are dealing with a very different mindset over there. One without free speech and rational inquiry. The seething masses who kill each other over Islam and questioning Islam will become so emboldened by Israel's defeat that we won't know what hit us. For that and many other reasons, I support Israel 100%. Talk to a big cross section of people from the Middle East, go over there if you can, and you will see precisely what I mean.

We are already bowing to this worldview and censoring ourselves. Perhaps you haven't lived long enough to see times in which free speech was free, but the West is a shadow of what she was because we do not wish to offend Muslims in case they rampage through our cities. I've had enough, personally. These fanatics should understand by now that every single religious and cultural group besides them are against them. That doesn't tell them anything, unfortunately, but when the rest of the world is against you, you need to take a good look at yourself. I have friends of every faith, all of whom, and their oppressed ancestors whom, are no fans of this 'religion of peace.' You'll find every religious and non-religious denomination here besides Muslims to attest to it. So either we're all onto something, or you're the one eyed woman in the land of the blind. I happen to think the former, but if you can show me evidence to the contrary I'll look at it.

Posted by: Infidelicious at January 1, 2009 7:00 PM

Concerned Citizen. Canada, where I live, is very secular. 23% of our population is atheist today. Harper, though a Conservative Christian, fully understands the concept of separation of church and state. And I'm proud to say that Canada is pretty tough on radical Islam.

Sure Denmark has problems with Muslims, but so does everyone.

Lorfalcon, because Jews pretty much married within for centuries, it would is simple that many of us trace back to the middle eastern Jews of the bible.
Nothing real mind boggling about it.

Goonies, I wish the rest of the world didn't consider Jews special. But anti-semitism does bond us together whether we believe in God or we don't.

Posted by: The Atheist Jew at January 1, 2009 7:08 PM

there is a huge difference between islam and every other major religion: islam openly advocates the use of all kinds of violence as long as it furthers the cause of islam. this has been true for nearly every religion *throughout history*, however. the point here is that no one does it in the modern world except for islamics. no one. i am not jewish nor christian and i fully support isreal. its about time the isrealis started hitting back harder.
i have seen first hand what zealots from all religions are capable of and nothing shocked me most than what i saw in iraq. muslims (all-inclusive as i have yet to meet one that doesn't/hasn't) will take any opportunity to belittle, humiliate, murder and complain at every real/perceived slight against islam. they then justify this with "as allah willed it".
i firmly believe that there will never be peace as long as there is more than one religion, but the world would be better off with islam gone. Hate speech? open for debate. when people are nearly executed for naming a stuffed toy Mo, when children and women are used as shields on a regular basis(i have seen that first hand) and when people are murdered simply because of a differing belief, i call that barbarism.
christians are guilty of the same.....hundreds of years ago.
last time i checked, my wife wouldn't get gang-raped to punish me for a crime as she would if we lived in iraq/afghanistan. i also notice how most of the people who defend islam the most never have been to that festering bed of hatred we call the middle east. go to iraq or afghanistan, goonie. walk out into baghdad and find a nice sunni or shiite to hug. i'd give you a 50/50 of making 2 hours without dying. now go to NYC or Tel Aviv and spend as long as you want without being murdered by a religious fanatic.
........go isreal!:)

Posted by: lawndartt at January 1, 2009 7:14 PM

Concerned Citizen. Canada, where I live, is very secular. 23% of our population is atheist today. Harper, though a Conservative Christian, fully understands the concept of separation of church and state. And I'm proud to say that Canada is pretty tough on radical Islam.

Sure Denmark has problems with Muslims, but so does everyone.

Lorfalcon, because Jews pretty much married within for centuries, it would is simple that many of us trace back to the middle eastern Jews of the bible.
Nothing real mind boggling about it.

Goonies, I wish the rest of the world didn't consider Jews special. But anti-semitism does bond us together whether we believe in God or we don't.

Posted by: The Atheist Jew at January 1, 2009 7:19 PM

Goonies Lovemart,

Before you say that we who post here are haters and fixated on a particular religion as a source of violence, you really should read the Quran (which, by the way, has been blogged here through all 114 Suras), then learn about the Muslim canon, called Sunna, that is the biography, deeds, and sayings of Muhammad (sirat and ahadith). Read Robert Spencer's books for a start. In the Internet Age, there is no excuse for ignorance.

(I don't buy your example of Western callousness and hypocrisy, the Iraq War. You are taking the wildest exaggerations of civilian deaths at face value, though they are, at best, faulty extrapolation, and at worse, mendacious fabrications.)

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 7:22 PM

Goonies Lovemart,

Before you say that we who post here are haters and fixated on a particular religion as a source of violence, you really should read the Quran (which, by the way, has been blogged here through all 114 Suras), then learn about the Muslim canon, called Sunna, that is the biography, deeds, and sayings of Muhammad (sirat and ahadith). Read Robert Spencer's books for a start. In the Internet Age, there is no excuse for ignorance.

(I don't buy as your example of Western callousness and hypocrisy, the Iraq War. You are taking the wildest exaggerations of civilian deaths at face value, though they are, at best, faulty extrapolation, and at worse, mendacious fabrications.)

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 7:22 PM

Goonies Lovemart,

Before you say that we who post here are haters and fixated on a particular religion as a source of violence, you really should read the Quran (which, by the way, has been blogged here through all 114 Suras), then learn about the Muslim canon, called Sunna, that is the biography, deeds, and sayings of Muhammad (sirat and ahadith). Read Robert Spencer's books for a start. In the Internet Age, there is no excuse for ignorance.

(I don't buy as your example of Western callousness and hypocrisy, the Iraq War. You are taking the wildest exaggerations of civilian deaths at face value, though they are, at best, faulty extrapolation, and at worse, mendacious fabrication.)

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 7:55 PM

Goonies Lovemart,

Before you say that we who post here are haters and fixated on a particular religion as a source of violence, you really should read the Quran (which, by the way, has been blogged here through all 114 Suras), then learn about the Muslim canon, called Sunna, that is the biography, deeds, and sayings of Muhammad (sirat and ahadith). Read Robert Spencer's books for a start. In the Internet Age, there is no excuse for ignorance.

(I don't buy as your example of Western callousness and hypocrisy, the Iraq War. You are taking the wildest exaggerations of civilian deaths at face value, though they are, at best, faulty extrapolation, and at worse, mendacious fabrication.)

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 7:56 PM

Goonies Lovemart,

Before you say that we who post here are haters and fixated on a particular religion as a source of violence, you really should read the Quran (which, by the way, has been blogged here through all 114 Suras), then learn about the Muslim canon, called Sunna, that is the biography, deeds, and sayings of Muhammad (sirat and ahadith). Read Robert Spencer's books for a start. In the Internet Age, there is no excuse for ignorance.

(I don't buy as your example of Western callousness and hypocrisy, the Iraq War. You are taking the wildest exaggerations of civilian deaths at face value, though they are, at best, faulty extrapolation, and at worse, mendacious fabrication.)

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 7:56 PM

Goonies Lovemart,

Before you say that we who post here are haters and fixated on a particular religion as a source of violence, you really should read the Quran (which, by the way, has been blogged here through all 114 Suras), then learn about the Muslim canon, called Sunna, that is the biography, deeds, and sayings of Muhammad (sirat and ahadith). Read Robert Spencer's books for a start. In the Internet Age, there is no excuse for ignorance.

(I don't buy as your example of Western callousness and hypocrisy, the Iraq War. You are taking the wildest exaggerations of civilian deaths at face value, though they are, at best, faulty extrapolation, and at worse, mendacious fabrication.)

Posted by: John C at January 1, 2009 7:56 PM

Concerned Citizen. Canada, where I live, is very secular. 23% of our population is atheist today. Harper, though a Conservative Christian, fully understands the concept of separation of church and state. And I'm proud to say that Canada is pretty tough on radical Islam.

Sure Denmark has problems with Muslims, but so does everyone.

Lorfalcon, because Jews pretty much married within for centuries, it would is simple that many of us trace back to the middle eastern Jews of the bible.
Nothing real mind boggling about it.

Goonies, I wish the rest of the world didn't consider Jews special. But anti-semitism does bond us together whether we believe in God or we don't.

Posted by: The Atheist Jew at January 1, 2009 7:56 PM

USAOUT.. No we do need Israel as an ally. They are the only true ally we have in that region. How come you think we shouldn't have the Palestinians as an ally? They have taken more money per capita from the U.S. and western Europe than any other people in the world. And what do they have to show for it? They use it to buy weapons. They celebrate in the streets at not only the deaths of Israeli babies (literally) but the 9/11 attacks as well. You are truly naive if you think this isn't about us as well. Remember, Israel votes with us 100% of the time in the UN. I call you unAmerican if you don't want the U.S. to have friends like that. We need all the friends we can get especially against terrorists. Remember, they have among the best intelligence gathering people in the world and they share with us. Not only are you unAmerican but you're an idiot for not wanting them as friends.

Posted by: one of the chosen people at January 1, 2009 9:08 PM

My guess is that every nation/religion views themselves as superior. It's probably a human failing. My problem is with the hypocrisy. Americans decry Islamic violence while committing unspeakable and unprovoked violence in Iraq. America is responsible for the hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq. To me, it matters little if this violence is provoked by religious views, or hatred of another religion, or just blind vengeance. What difference does it make why violence is committed? Or with what means (i.e. missiles vs. car bombs). Or whether it's committed by a state or non-state entity. This is the very definition of hypocrisy. Decrying the violence of another culture while ignoring the violence perpetrated by your own. Christians and Americans could conceivably hold the moral high ground if they weren't so violent and intolerant themselves.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart

So i see that you have no counter argument for that 'they are terrorists because the are poor' type of B.S.

WTF are you blabbering about the deaths in Iraq. A vast majority of Iraqis killed were killed by their fellow muslims in those sectarian killings. Saddam Hussein (a muslim himself) probably killed more of his own people (muslims) than the Americans did. It was America that sent more of it's own troops to stop that civil war that was ravaging Iraq. And the number of deaths has drastically declined eversince the surge of troops.

You want to lump everything together and equate things that can't be equated. Muslims have a long history of conquering non-muslim lands and giving the non-muslim population the choice between death, subjugation or converting to islam at swords point. I don't see the American army in Iraq doing that with the Iraqis.
What the muslim Jehadis want is to conquer and convert the whole world, don't take my word for it listen to them yourself and they will tell you exactly the same thing.

The problem is that those muslim jehadis can base their beliefs on the Quran and the Hadiths. Their own 'prophet' (who according to islamic doctrine is a PERFECT MAN and is the ROLEMODEL for ALL MUSLIMS) did things that were horrible and not prophetlike. Those muslim terrorists can draw inspiration from the Quran and the Hadiths (books that detailled how their 'prophet' and rolemodel acted).

The theory of islam is a violent one. Not only is there a theory through the ages their has also been a practise to back that theory. That practise has been done in the past, everyone can see it take place in the present and i am sure that it will also take place in the future.

You can blabber all you want about the bible and how it may promote violence BUT that theory is not being put into practise right now. The christian nation U.S.A. did not start the Iraq war to forcibly convert the Iraqis to Christianity. I don't see christian nations organising a new round of crusades.

You say you don't care about the justification for violence, as long as their is violence it's wrong and you blame the group (christians and americans) for the violence. Well as i said before some of the greates mass murderers were atheist, so that makes atheist also guilthy of violence according to your own logic.

During WW2 the problem was not with the Germans but with the ideology that inspired them. When the Axis powers were defeated by the Allies the Allies did everything in their power to cripple/destroy the ideology that drove the germans,italians,japanese to commit violent acts. So you see identifying the reason why violence is commited is very important. A fact you are obviously blinded to

Posted by: rammer at January 1, 2009 9:16 PM

USAOUT.. No we do need Israel as an ally. They are the only true ally we have in that region. How come you think we shouldn't have the Palestinians as an ally? They have taken more money per capita from the U.S. and western Europe than any other people in the world. And what do they have to show for it? They use it to buy weapons. They celebrate in the streets at not only the deaths of Israeli babies (literally) but the 9/11 attacks as well. You are truly naive if you think this isn't about us as well. Remember, Israel votes with us 100% of the time in the UN. I call you unAmerican if you don't want the U.S. to have friends like that. We need all the friends we can get especially against terrorists. Remember, they have among the best intelligence gathering people in the world and they share with us. Not only are you unAmerican but you're an idiot for not wanting them as friends.

Posted by: one of the chosen people at January 1, 2009 9:17 PM

It seems to me that apologists for Islam, or haters of western civilization have some choices on how to respond to the evidence that the ROP has been storing arms in their mosques.

One is that they can deny it, and attempt to explain why the evidence does not show what it seems to show.

Two is they can admit it, but attempt to explain how making your place of worship an arsenal is either justified or is an anomaly that others should not worry that the mosque in their area is being used to store weapons with which to murder people.

Three, and this seems to be the tactic employed by a couple on this site, is to change the subject, back in 1484 the greeks stored swords in their church, or the americans bombed innocent germans, or to pretend that all religions are the same, or any of a hundred digressions that tend to obfuscate the point.

But all the clever little tactics do not even address the topic, a mosque in Gaza was used to launch attacks, and to store weapons, a few posters related other incidents of mosques being used in military ways. I think that this story should be noted by people that in case of some future troubles that it will be difficult if not impossible for Mahometans to feign outrage when mosques come under surveillance or are raided.

Naturally, there will always be a few people who in spite of evidence, history or precedent will still believe what they want to believe, but those people are usually pretty ineffectual and marginalized.

Posted by: stickman at January 1, 2009 9:30 PM

USAOUT.. No we do need Israel as an ally. They are the only true ally we have in that region. How come you think we shouldn't have the Palestinians as an ally? They have taken more money per capita from the U.S. and western Europe than any other people in the world. And what do they have to show for it? They use it to buy weapons. They celebrate in the streets at not only the deaths of Israeli babies (literally) but the 9/11 attacks as well. You are truly naive if you think this isn't about us as well. Remember, Israel votes with us 100% of the time in the UN. I call you unAmerican if you don't want the U.S. to have friends like that. We need all the friends we can get especially against terrorists. Remember, they have among the best intelligence gathering people in the world and they share with us. Not only are you unAmerican but you're an idiot for not wanting them as friends.

Posted by: one of the chosen people at January 1, 2009 9:32 PM

USAOUT.. No we do need Israel as an ally. They are the only true ally we have in that region. How come you think we shouldn't have the Palestinians as an ally? They have taken more money per capita from the U.S. and western Europe than any other people in the world. And what do they have to show for it? They use it to buy weapons. They celebrate in the streets at not only the deaths of Israeli babies (literally) but the 9/11 attacks as well. You are truly naive if you think this isn't about us as well. Remember, Israel votes with us 100% of the time in the UN. I call you unAmerican if you don't want the U.S. to have friends like that. We need all the friends we can get especially against terrorists. Remember, they have among the best intelligence gathering people in the world and they share with us. Not only are you unAmerican but you're an idiot for not wanting them as friends.

Posted by: one of the chosen people at January 1, 2009 9:41 PM

Just registering a a non-Jew, so anyone here who is complaining we are all on Israel's side because we are Jewish can take note.

It makes sense to support Israel. And I care nothing for the "culture" and "religion" of those barbarians who call themselves "Palestinians". I support Hugh's views entirely; there is no need for me to repeat them.

Posted by: PG at January 1, 2009 10:39 PM

"Islam offers the "infidel" 3 options. Convert, subjugate, or die. No other religious belief system imposes itself in this way against the human race this way.

Every major religion can co-exist with one another peacefully with the exception of islam which can not coexist with any other." -Cool Ghoul

We have millions of Muslims in the US. I remember seeing a statistic that they had higher incomes and lower crime rates than the general population. They seem to have integrated fairly well. I don't see any calls from American Muslims to "convert, subjugate, or die". In fact, before 9/11, I knew absolutely nothing of Islam. Me thinks thou doth exaggerate. I've had numerous Christians and Mormons try to convert me. I've never seen a Muslim on a street corner handing out flyers.

"In contrast, muslims that commit violence against innocents are in fact living up to the standards of their religion. They are merely following its tenets. Therein lies the major difference." -Cool Ghoul

Again, I can only speak for what I see in America, but I haven't noticed any pressure whatsoever to convert to Islam. I've had a few as colleagues. Not one of them has ever mentioned their religion to me. I've never felt threatened by them. They seem to be integrated well from what I've seen. If your generalizations were correct, my experiences should have been different.

Also, you speak of committing violence against innocents. What about Iraq? Whether it's due to religion or secular reasons (or both), this is the very epitome of violence against innocents. You seem to think it's the tenets of the religion that are the major point of contention. I, on the other hand, think it's a minor point. Illegitimate war, torture, etc. are not something that should be excused because you feel the Bible does not advocate these activities. Your argument is that we can behave as badly as we want if the fundamental tenets of our religion espouse peace. Bull!

If Christians commit these acts, then these are Christian acts of violence. The whole history of the United States is replete with acts of violence perpetrated by Christians on non-Christians. From the subjugation and near annihilation of Natives to the slavery, killings, and lynchings of blacks. In fact, prior to the 1960's no one but white males had a fair slice of the American pie. Even during the Great Depression, when things got a little tough, a policy of whites first was initiated. This meant whites would get all employment opportunities before any minorities had a chance. Try being a minority in Christian America prior to 1965. Not a pretty thought, is it? 1965 is just 2 generations ago. Not that long ago for the most advanced, prosperous, and wealthy nation on the planet.

"People of all religions on the planet have participated in war. But there are religions in which you cannot find commands to fight anyone. War, however, is a human endeavor and being religious does not stop you from going to war, especially to defend yourself. There is also a religion which mandates war, and that is Islam. I can tell from your message that you have never read the source documents over the centuries from practitioners and authorities in this religion which stipulates war against others because they are not Muslim and for NO OTHER REASON."

The United States goes to war as much as any other country on the planet. Hardly a decade goes by after a previous conflict before we're arming again to "save the world" (rolls eyes). Usually the indigenous populations of the third world countries we have to attack are decimated after we're done. You talk of war and violence committed for one purpose as so horrific, while we commit the same violence and acts of war, and you shrug your shoulders. And if you look at the reasons we've gone to war, you'll see that many of our past wars were for reasons seemingly as trivial as you criticize Islam for. If you're not good with history, I'll be happy to enumerate some of the nonsense we've gone to war over. It's like a man with rotting teeth telling his wife to use some breath mints. Perhaps that man should go to the dentist first and fix his own problems before he criticizes others.

"Which isn't to say that Muslims can't be peaceful. Sure they can. Most of them, though, if we had to go to war with an Islamic nation, would sooner fight for Islam than for the nations which gave them sanctuary. This is a fact. I recently asked a woman who'd just converted to Islam in America, whose family stretches back generations there, and she said she'd fight with the Muslims against her own country. Sad, sad."

The US is at war with Muslim nations, and I don't see them leaving to fight against the US. Furthermore, Jews are seemingly much more loyal to Israel than any other ethnicity/religion is to their home countries. That's the sad fact. Some members of Congress (I can name them if you wish) seem to make no excuses for the fact that their constituents are actually in the State of Israel. Cough, AIPAC, cough. Don't believe me? Read the transcripts of the presidential candidates' speeches to AIPAC. Talk about shameless. Why do these candidates make these types of speeches on the alter of AIPAC? Because they know they won't get elected otherwise. And don't even get me started on Joe Lieberman.

"We are already bowing to this worldview and censoring ourselves. Perhaps you haven't lived long enough to see times in which free speech was free, but the West is a shadow of what she was because we do not wish to offend Muslims in case they rampage through our cities." -Infidelicious

Now this is a load of nonsense. We do censor ourselves, but not because of Muslims. You think you would get away with running a website like this about Jews. Or even blacks. You're railing against the absolute easiest group on the planet to attack. I doubt you would get away with stuff like this even against gays. For instance, Jews are so protected, there's even a word for racism against their race (anti-semitism). Does any other race have a word like that? No. Not even blacks, who have probably suffered more than any other race. If you think it's Muslims who are getting the protection, you are totally out of touch with reality. Native Americans, Mexicans, Arabs, gays get absolutely zero protection in our PC world. Blacks get some because of their history in the US. Jews get full protection (and then some). Try going to any random message board and say something about Jews. You'll get jumped on so fast your head will spin. Now say something about an Arab or Mexican. You'll be deafened by the silence.

"last time i checked, my wife wouldn't get gang-raped to punish me for a crime as she would if we lived in iraq/afghanistan. i also notice how most of the people who defend islam the most never have been to that festering bed of hatred we call the middle east. go to iraq or afghanistan, goonie. walk out into baghdad and find a nice sunni or shiite to hug. i'd give you a 50/50 of making 2 hours without dying. now go to NYC or Tel Aviv and spend as long as you want without being murdered by a religious fanatic." -lawndartt

Yeah, you sound like somebody who I'd like to hug. So, you want an American to go into 2 war zones created by America and ask someone for a hug. Were you kicked in the head as a child?

"You can blabber all you want about the bible and how it may promote violence BUT that theory is not being put into practise right now. The christian nation U.S.A. did not start the Iraq war to forcibly convert the Iraqis to Christianity. I don't see christian nations organising a new round of crusades." -rammer

I'm not the one who's blabbering. So, your benchmark for when to question an unjust and pointless war is whether or not we're trying to convert the native population. What a load of bull. The point is that we attack people for no legitimate reason (of self-defense). We fight unjust wars. We kill civilians for no reason. And the important thing to you is that we're not trying to convert anyone. And let's not forget that we also torture now.

"Naturally, there will always be a few people who in spite of evidence, history or precedent will still believe what they want to believe, but those people are usually pretty ineffectual and marginalized."

American favorability ratings throughout the world (including Europe) are very low. And with good reason. Your few people are probably actually a quite hefty majority around the world.

Okay guys, it's clear that I'm vastly outnumbered here. It's also clear that I've struck a nerve, considering the response this thread has gotten after I posted. If I were as ineffectual as you claim I am, I wouldn't have gotten this kind of response. I personally know people who are anti-Muslim, anti-Jew, and/or anti-black. Sometimes all 3 in one. They all have one thing in common, aimless irrationality.

And our only real point of contention is how great the rest of the non-Islam world is. We agree totally on the Islamic world, but you want to portray the rest of the world as a great ball of sunshine to contrast to the Islamic world. And I think most of the rest of the world is the same heaping pile of garbage. There are some countries that I think are good examples to the rest of the world. The US and Israel are most definitely not among them.

Do you people have any purpose with this site at all besides venting your irrational views.

1. Do you want to rid the world of Islam? Good luck with that. It will never happen.

2. Do you want to create further conflicts? You seem to be headed in that direction.

3. Do you want to change Islam so that it's more full of sunshine and bunnies? Clearly not, because most of you have stated that this is not possible. In other words, the fundamentals of the Islam are not sound, and it cannot be changed.

Is (2) your real purpose here? I don't see what else you can possibly accomplish. If you have no purpose, then why does this site exist?

I'm done here.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 2, 2009 12:22 AM

really, its amazing how people react and respond to violence. very soon some of the commentators here will be affected in one way or the other by senseless attack from either side and thats when the issue will be objectively appraised. but until then, its better to shut up cause almost all the comments are subjective

Posted by: kamar at January 2, 2009 1:41 AM

Goonies, you are being willfully ignorant.

Christians are not running around the world today saying non-Christians should be killed, and they are not saying that non-Christians should be treated unequally simply because they are non-Christians, and they are not in Iraq because Christianity says go to war, however many soldiers actually are Christians. Soldiers are sourced from ALL faiths and they are doing their jobs.

You are repeating the same argument ad nauseam which is that 'If a person of a particular religion does something bad, that's an act of such a religion.' You're really grasping at straws here. If I'm Buddhist, and I rob a man, that doesn't mean that mugging is condoned by Buddhism. But if Buddhism says that it's okay for me to rob people and I go out and rob a man, then it is an act of my religion because the prescriptions of my faith are sacred to me.

Do you understand this now, or would you like a diagram? Incidentally, I know plenty of Jews and they would not betray their own nation in the event of a war.

Your all-inclusive liberalism is noble, but you are deliberately twisting your argument to fit your views when the facts don't mesh with them.

If you're not 'done here,' perhaps you can debate me on this point. I'll be happy to. It's not polite to duck out when you've made your response because you declare yourself the more accurate party, so if you want to carry this on, I'll be here.

Posted by: Infidelicious at January 2, 2009 2:21 AM

Okay, I'll stick around for a while.

Your example of the Buddhist robbing a man is not the type of example I've been giving. Obviously this is one individual. You can't judge a religion or a nation by the actions of one person.

The examples I've given are entire nations. For example, the vast majority of Americans are Christians. You most certainly can judge an entire religion if a nation of 300 million commits a certain act. It's a question of numbers. When you have a sufficient sample size, you can make a judgment. That's why I can judge all of Christianity based on the actions of America against Native Americans, Blacks, Chinese, Japanese, and women in its recent past. America doesn't have to commit these acts explicitly in the name of Christianity. It is a Christian nation, and it behaves in this way. Therefore, Christians behave in this way. To say otherwise would be allowing a religion to not be held accountable for the actions of its members. You can't say it's a blip on the radar, because it happened for prolonged periods repeatedly.

By your reasoning, these behaviors of Christians are not a reflection of the faith because they're not explicitly committing the act in the name of the faith. Well, by that reasoning, Christianity will always come up spotless unless someone drops an atomic bomb while chanting the name of Jesus Christ. Since this will never happen, Christianity will always come up smelling like a rose.

Bottom line. When a large Christian nation does something, this reflects on the the Christian faith.

"Soldiers are sourced from ALL faiths and they are doing their jobs."

The vast majority are Christian. And what job are they doing? Perpetrating an illegitimate war in Iraq perhaps?

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 2, 2009 2:40 AM

BTW- I don't have anything against Christians. I'm just using the same arguments your cohort has been using. If Iran commits an act, then by the reasoning of most here, all Arabs and Muslims are committing this act. I'm just using the same argument, replacing Muslims with Christians and Iran with the US. These arguments are used repeatedly here, and you have no problem with them when the target group you prefer is being used. But when I change it to Christians, you're suddenly noticing the flaws in the argument.

I also don't have a problem with Jews. Again, I'm changing the protagonists. Funny how you notice the fallacies in the arguments when I do this.

This is the type of non-critical thinking that plagues prejudiced minds. This isn't the first time I've had this type of conversation.

You're the ignorant one, unfortunately not willfully.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 2, 2009 3:03 AM

Hey Rammer, homicide in Iraq is actually down to below pre-war levels. It was higher under Saddam than it is now. I wish I could remember where I read that. Of course most of those homicides are Christians and little girls who are rape victims, and leftists don't actually regard women, little girls, Jews, Christians, blacks, Hindus, or gays as people, obviously. If they did they simply could not defend Islam. Nope. The only valuable lives to them are inbred, child-molesting, Nazi terrorists bent on genocide and parasitism.

Why are you arguing with people who think that life under either Al Qaeda or Saddam Hussein is superior to the entire functioning, democratic society we created for those ungrateful, worthless Iraqis who will turn it into crap like everything else Muslims touch? The last worthwhile thing to come out of Iraq was Rita Katz, a pillar of the anti-jihad movement.

Posted by: jdamn at January 2, 2009 3:39 AM

You see Infidelicious. jdamn is the perfect example of your cohort.

Okay, read his comments the first time. It feels good doesn't it to read these words about the people you hate.

Now read it a second time critically. Has he actually said anything worthwhile? Has he made any real arguments? Nope. Nothing logical anyway. It's just the typical hate-spewing filth that fills this board. If you were really interested in scholarly debate, you would start with whatever this was that appeared on this board at 3:39 am.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 2, 2009 3:53 AM

Goonies

your long screeds of taqiyya-and-tu-quoque, together with the accusations of 'hatred' (I'm surprised you haven't starting throwing about charges of 'Islamophobia) are very dull and everything in them I have heard before, many times, in the course of perusing the archives at this site and reading the screeds by Mohammedans or by defenders of Mohammedans.

jdamn knows what she is talking about.

She has had direct personal experience of exactly how nasty a Muslim can be. (Many others who post here, or who have posted here in the past, have had similar unpleasant experiences...and have subsequently discovered that their experience was not one-off, was not unique, was not an aberration, but rather, that the Muslims they encountered, were following the playbook, and doing to them precisely what the Islamic texts tell Muslims to do to non-Muslims; i.e., that the nasty behaviours should have been - sad to say - entirely to be expected).

jdamn may employ a harsh turn of phrase, but she can provide hard evidence - textual and historical - for every assertion she makes.

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at January 2, 2009 6:47 AM

Goonies,

I haven't read a comment from the user you're referring to, so don't tell me how I view the comments of posters I've not seen. There are 131 posts in this thread and I do not read them all.

Now are you going to answer my points, or are you going to play mind readers with me? Your choice. I made a few points you can address individually if you please, and we'll see how that pans out.

You game? Because you're deflecting everything I said to you. Address it directly, please. I'm disappointed that you refer me to what someone else said instead of what I said to you, so let's put that scholarly mind of yours to use.

Posted by: Infidelicious at January 2, 2009 7:36 AM

This will be my last post on this forum. To be honest, I'm sorry I ever found this site (link from yahoo). I often times get hooked on a forum and enjoy posting. This one causes me nothing but pain.

I can give you a few of my impressions before I go. The views of people who actually lived in Islamic countries would hold a lot more weight with me than those of American or Israeli posters. The reason is that the former would seem to have more actual knowledge of the subject, while the latter would be more likely to just be expressing blind racism. The latter seems to me to be the more common here. While I understand that a minority here probably have actual experience with the subject, the "BOO-YAH. Hit 'em again" crowd does nothing to help you and everything to hurt your cause.

People would be far better served in understanding your position by reading the writings of Raymond Ibrahim than this garbage. Furthermore, the total lack of compassion for the deaths that occur along with the extremist tone of this forum will do nothing but put open-minded people off. If one looks at this objectively, the tone taken here against Muslims is the exact same tone that would be taken on a white supremacist forum against Jews or blacks. I would never be able to stomach sitting through either.

I still believe (or have hope) that an extremist ideology can be moderated substantially with the passage of time, though I do have my doubts that Islam could ever become liberal enough for me to want to live in an Islamic country. The pro-Israel spin is also off-putting in the sense that I think Israel contributes largely to the problem, rather than help in any way. I personally think Israel is just as big a problem as any other country in the Middle East. Let's not forget that Israel marginalizes it's Arab population in a similar way to what Muslim nations do to non-Muslims.

I'm of the mindset that it's not necessarily the passages in the Koran or the general tone of the Koran that is the problem with the religion. Passages can be ignored or interpreted in a different way in the future. The problem to me is the extreme complexity of the religion and the laws and the expenditure of time and effort required. The rituals and all the intricacies seem designed to suck you in and keep you. This to me, more than some passages in a book, is what would seem to preclude the possibility of any future liberalization, although I hope I'm wrong. Most Christians I know worship one hour a week (if even that). That's basically one hour less than me. That's a lot more time to devote to prostitutes, booze, and porn (three of my favorite things) than Muslims will ever have. Yet, the whole tone of the Bible would seem to preclude the kind of liberalization that has taken place in much of the Western world. I think this has everything to do with the level of dedication/devotion required of most Christians (i.e. far less than that of Muslims). Christians don't develop that same level of obsession with their holy book (for the most part) until they're on their death beds and it really matters.

In summary, I do have compassion for the minorities that have been persecuted in Islamic countries but I think a lot of it is expressed in the wrong way. And I still don't have any clear understanding of what the objectives are for this site.

And I just want to point out that if you're a Middle Easterner living in the West, you're basically a Muslim to them. If you're a Copt, guess what, you're a Muslim too. Indian, probably a Muslim. If you're Sikh and you wear headgear and a beard, you're going to appear to be not only a Muslim, but one of the big honchos they want to take in and question. If you're a Mexican, 50/50 they'll think you're a Muslim. That's one of my biggest pet peaves with this whole site. Are you actually hurting or helping yourselves? I personally think it could only do harm because I don't think the average person will know how to (or even care to) make a distinction. I've never had a problem with demeaning or bringing down the Muslim faith, but are you also doing it to yourself in the process? Basically, Middle Eastern = Muslim to a lot of the western world. If you're white or Jewish, it, of course, means nothing to you.

This is my last post. Thanks.

Posted by: Goonies Lovemart at January 2, 2009 10:33 AM

Maybe , the Israelis could help a little bit here and start cleaning some of the American Mosques where they are teaching hate and brainwash the children . preparing them for the conquest of America.

All what we need is a powerful broom and a few one way airplane tickets back to the Middle East. It will do the job.

Posted by: Tartine at January 2, 2009 11:27 AM

Goonies, take note:

No, we don't think that Israel marginalizes its Arab citizens the same way that Muslim countries marginalize non-Muslims. And your characterization of this readership's racial views and attitudes is dead, flat out wrong (this observation comes from a person who has been unfavorably perceived as both Arab and as Mexican). And do thoroughly explore a site before you execise your peeves about--begin by reading the posted disclaimer that precedes comments. Finally, the real argument centers on the validity of Robert Spencer's observations and studies, and on the relevance and applicability of his views. Perhaps the Daily Kos and its like is more congenialy to your high-minded self-satisfaction. Chiao.

Posted by: John C at January 2, 2009 12:59 PM

Goonies, take note:

No, we don't think that Israel marginalizes its Arab citizens the same way that Muslim countries marginalize non-Muslims. And your characterization of this readership's racial views and attitudes is dead, flat out wrong (this observation comes from a person who has been unfavorably perceived as both Arab and as Mexican). And do thoroughly explore a site before you execise your peeves about it--begin by reading the posted disclaimer that precedes comments. Finally, the real argument centers on the validity of Robert Spencer's observations and studies, and on the relevance and applicability of his views. Perhaps the Daily Kos and its like is more congenialy to your high-minded self-satisfaction. Chiao.

Posted by: John C at January 2, 2009 1:00 PM

Goonies, take note:

No, we don't think that Israel marginalizes its Arab citizens the same way that Muslim countries marginalize non-Muslims. And your characterization of this readership's racial views and attitudes is dead, flat out wrong (this observation comes from a person who has been unfavorably perceived as both Arab and as Mexican). And do thoroughly explore a site before you execise your peeves about it--begin by reading the posted disclaimer that precedes comments. Finally, the real argument centers on the validity of Robert Spencer's observations and studies, and on the relevance and applicability of his views. Perhaps the Daily Kos and its like is more congenial to your high-minded self-satisfaction. Chiao.

Posted by: John C at January 2, 2009 1:01 PM

Goonies, take note:

No, we don't think that Israel marginalizes its Arab citizens the same way that Muslim countries marginalize non-Muslims. And your characterization of this readership's racial views and attitudes is dead, flat out wrong (this observation comes from a person who has been unfavorably perceived as both Arab and as Mexican). And do thoroughly explore a site before you execise your peeves about it--begin by reading the posted disclaimer that precedes comments. Finally, the real argument centers on the validity of Robert Spencer's observations and studies, and on the relevance and applicability of his views. Perhaps the Daily Kos and its like is more congenial to your high-minded self-satisfaction. Chiao.

Posted by: John C at January 2, 2009 1:01 PM

Goonies,

I appreciate your response, and to answer your question I have lived in the Middle East and in the West. And no, not everyone of Middle Eastern appearance is automatically considered Muslim. I don't even know where you get that from, really.

You have to understand that Middle Eastern countries are nothing like Western countries. The Middle East is theocratic and suppresses all forms of dissent, particularly in regards to Islam. And they often teach a very poisonous form of Islam which regards all other religious and cultural groups as worthless. The West is built on individuality, the Middle East is build on a herd mentality. That is the best description I can give you that is succinct.

In these places, people view violence as an acceptable way to achieve their aims, to vent 'offense,' and to enforce the herd mind. That is why the West had the cartoon riots. It is why individuals want to plant bombs in buildings or on trains. It is why Muslims ask for extreme 'sensitivity' towards their beliefs. The West has imported a culture which is not only fundamentally alien to it and which does not respect Western values, but which wants to do away with it and replace it with Sharia governance. You cannot imagine what your nations will become if you keep pandering to these people out of 'tolerance.' They will destroy you from within, just like they did in Lebanon.

Every other group in society can get along and live in peace. Ask yourself what it is about an increasingly confident and vocal group of Muslims that makes them the exception. It's their culture and religious indoctrination.

Now, if you go to a Middle Eastern country and you are either white or a Westerner, they will make their speech very appealing to you. Whereas if I go, they will tell me what they wouldn't dream of telling you.

I am an ex Muslim living in the United Kingdom and I am not safe to declare my apostasy even in a democratic, Western nation. I have three friends who cannot do the same, for the same reason. You need to wake up. You haven't seen what I have seen these people do and you should never expect, when they import their own culture overseas, that they will suddenly change.

Uphold your own values, or you will lose them. If you do not, your country will become just like every other Arab satellite. Not a country anyone would want to live in, and one my family fled with their lives.

Please. Stop dreaming about a peaceful Islam. The Islam being imported into countries now is not the beautified Western Islam. It is the raw, angry, primal, fascistic Original Islam - the same Islam that swarmed out of Arabia and put great nations to the sword in its name and made the peoples slaves - and if you have to see your cities burn to understand this, you will understand eventually. Hopefully not too late to preserve your culture for your children.

Posted by: Infidelicious at January 2, 2009 1:02 PM

It's the LPU, people, I'm telling you.

The views of people who actually lived in Islamic countries would hold a lot more weight with me than those of American or Israeli posters.

Yeah, and any apostate from Islam, someone who actually DID live in a cesspoolstan and who, not having been hopelessly "divinely" inbred, possessed enough intelligence and strength to leave the cult and speak out about it would agree with everything we write. I have actually discussed a few of the points I've made with Ali Sina and he concurs completely. But it conflicts with Koran Armstrong and John Esposito's writings (two non-Muslims who have never lived in Islamic countries, hence the projection of that fallacy onto us), so it jacks with her worldview in which inbred, child-molesting Nazi terrorists (and yes, Goonies, all Muslims are terrorists, per the 4th Pillar, which obligates them all to finance jihad with 2.5% of their income - no legitimate Islamic charity has ever existed or ever could under Islamic law because Muslims don't believe in charity) are exempt from being held to normal, universal, objective standards of decency. She's also completely ignorant of Islamic doctrine and law, to the extent that she has the gall to call Islam a "religion" (it's not, as it completely lacks both theology and morality - not a single moral teaching, Goonies).

It's not just Muslims, but it's people like her who cause me to believe that people are not inherently good and that some people have very evil, very unobjective, very narcissistic worldviews which cannot be repaired through simple education because their capacity for denial and projection is simply too great to be countered with reality.

Goonies, read "Reliance of the Traveler" and get back to us. Tell me how defensible Islam is, and remember, they cut out the whole section on slavery for Western consumption, yet, as the most authoritative manual on Islamic law, it's still in there in the Arabic version. Or just trawl around on Faithfreedom or Islam Watch. They're sites by ex-Muslims. Read "Why I am Not A Muslim" by Ibn Warraq, "Now They Call Me Infidel" by Nonie Darwish, or "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. But she won't. She'll read Esposto or Koran Armstrong because that's what the Saudis want her to do.

I'm surprised she didn't call us "racist" after telling us how Jews have no right to not allow Hamas to finish Hitler's Final Solution. Of course non-Muslims aren't entitled to not be overrun by jihadis in her sicko-pervert worldview. Because the Crusades were so indefensible. That idiot would have been genitally mutilated at three, raped every day by her father and brothers who have "divine " sanction to do so (Koran 2:223), then pimped into incestuous sex slavery to an 80-year-old cousin at 5 for a pack of gum to be one of 4 bought sex slaves ("wives" in Muslimese) and who knows how many non-Muslim abducted sex slaves, and chained to a stove crapping out endless inbrd terrorists against her will were it not for the Crusades. The degree of ingratitude of some people forces me to believe that some people just don't deserve the oxygen they breathe.

Oh, and for the record, Goonies, Raymond is an American Christian who happens to be very well-versed in Islamic double-speak because Arabic is his first language and he works very hard for the survival of Western civilization, not that you've actually read anything he's ever written, obviously, unlike everyone in here, who eagerly awaits his next article or update from the Coptic papers because we regard his insights as very valuable, which you would not according to the worldview you're pushing on us. His parents were essentially forced out Egypt by Islamic dhimmitude for not being inbred, child-molesting Nazi terrorists. Muslims don't take too kindly to decent human beings, which is why they forced out all of their Jews in 1948 and have been killing their Christians ever since. But Raymond doesn't deserve to live and his parents have no right to live with dignity, according to your worldview, because they're Christians. By the way, you may notice how Coptic Egyptians are usually paler than Muslim Egyptians. That's because they didn't rape black women as their favorite pasttime for 1300 years. Just a little interesting tidbit. Muslims Egyptians' favorite pasttime today, now that they can't both have slavery and parasitize America (no Islamic society can even hypothetically exist for 5 minutes without another society to parasitize)? Killing Christians. But you just keep on defending them, Goonies, because they're such nice people. (Islamic law obligates them to extort, kill, plunder, torture, and rape all non-Muslims, but they're somehow acting contrary to Islamic law when they extort, kill, plunder, torture, and rape non-Muslims).

Posted by: jdamn at January 2, 2009 1:41 PM

Infidelicious

great response to 'goonies': applause. Your response is important, because it will be very helpful to new visitors and lurkers, now and in the future.

(By the way: if you are indeed who you say you are, and I see no current reason to doubt, then please receive my sincerest congratulations to you and to your three brave friends, for escaping, Houdini-like, from the mental prison of Islam. I don't know whether you've apostasised to agnosticism, atheism, or another faith such as Buddhism or Christianity or even, if Persian, Zoroaster; but anyway, for what it's worth, know that I pray most fervently for the spiritual and physical protection of people like you; and I long for the day when the Authorities here in the Infidel lands, will take seriously the Muslim threats against Apostates from Islam, and take steps to protect you.)

I don't think 'Goonies' was expecting to find an Apostate posting here, large as life! Many of the sweeping claims 'Goonie' had just made about the nature of this site, have now been, shall we say, exposed to be quite ridiculous.

Ladies and gentlemen: a round of [virtual] drinks, and a toast to the health of our new guest, Infidelicious, Apostate from Islam, who has thrown off his/ her cloak and bested 'Goonies' with a few well-directed passes of the rapier.

And while we're at it, a toast to the IAF for excellent aim and intelligent choice of target.

Further toasts may be drunk:

To Freedom!

To - the Defeat of the Jihad!

To - the Liberation of Muslims From Islam!

Posted by: dumbledoresarmy at January 2, 2009 9:34 PM

I thought that this thread - overall - was good. I always welcome dissenting views and opinions. But things break down once the arguments becomes illogical, baseless, and defensive.

Goonies was applying and projecting "moral equivalency" - then suddenly applying "immoral equivalency" when cornered - between islam and other "religions". He was hoping to justify his preformed conclusions about all religions - but was unable to present a logical argument.

Posted by: The Cool Ghoul at January 2, 2009 10:36 PM