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Carey: Bad, bad dhimmi!
The outcry against George Carey is growing. From The Telegraph:
British Muslims reacted with anger yesterday at an attack on Islamic culture delivered by Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury.Muslim leaders said his claim that moderates had failed to condemn suicide bombers was totally unjustified, and rejected his assertion that Islam, over the past 500 years, had displayed a "strong resistance to modernity".
In a public lecture in Rome on Thursday evening, Dr Carey had also criticised the "glaring absence" of democracy in Muslim countries and said Islamic culture had contributed "no great invention... for many hundred years".
Manzoor Moghal, chairman of the Federation of Muslim Organisations in Leicester, said Dr Carey's statement was "disastrous" for relations between Christians and Muslims.
"He has fallen prey to the campaign tactics of racists in this country," he said.
As to the suggestion that Muslim leaders were not doing enough to criticise terrorists, Mr Moghal said it was "nonsense".
"We condemn suicide bombers, we go on radio, on television, we have made statements. What more can we do?
"We cannot be responsible for the criminal actions of others - they are not under our control. The former archbishop has got it wrong."
Dr Zaki Badawi, regarded as a moderate voice in Muslim circles who has been consulted by Tony Blair on a number of issues, said he was "quite upset" by the comments.
"I think Dr Carey made a rather unfortunate statement at a time when there is about to be dialogue between Muslims and Christians in America," said Dr Badawi, principal of the Muslim College in Ealing, west London.
He said that Dr Carey's view of Islam was historically inaccurate and failed to recognise that the West had undermined democratic revolutions in Iran and Egypt in the 19th and 20th centuries.
The speech also omitted any mention of the British Empire, which colonised Muslim countries, said Dr Badawi.
He added that the West's recent dominance of technology was more to do with geography and development than religion.
"I have great affection for Dr Carey but it is unfortunate he delivered this lecture," he said.
Iqbal Sacranie, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, was swift to dismiss the former archbishop's words, denouncing them as "myopic". He said: "Frankly, one is dismayed by Lord Carey's comments.
"One is surprised to find Lord Carey recycling the same old religious prejudice in the 21st century."
Ahmed Versi, editor of Muslim News, said: "We hope that the current Archbishop Rowan Williams - who is very different - will condemn these views."
But Lord Carey defended his speech yesterday on BBC Radio 4's The World At One programme.
"It is meant to provoke a reaction. In the same way I look at the West and Christianity and am equally critical," he said.
"I'm looking at the way we build stereotypes of each other and the way we must transcend this and I think that a person looking objectively at the entire speech - five and a half thousand words - will see there's a balance there...
"So to twist it as an attack on the Islamic world would be far too simplistic and sadly it does suggest how polarised the world is at the present moment.
"The positive is that I believe we can do more together. Two great faiths, Christianity and Islam, working together against extremists on both sides. That, in fact, was the thrust of my message."
Dr Carey's remarks came just before his successor as Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, leads talks between Christian and Muslim scholars in New York, which start on Monday.
Although Lambeth Palace would not be drawn into a reaction, the Bishop of Southwark, the Right Rev Tom Butler, attempted to calm emotions.
He said: "Sometimes opinions will be expressed robustly in either direction; if this can be handled with maturity and mutual respect, understanding can be deepened and our dialogue can emerge strengthened."
Dr Carey received encouragement from the leader of an organisation which supports Christian missionaries working in Islamic countries.
Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Barnabas Fund, said that Dr Carey's lecture had taken "great courage".
"He has spent years establishing dialogue with Islam. Now he recognises that the core of Islam must be radically changed if there is going to be any change in their attitude towards suicide bombing and so on. This is a departure for the Church," he said.
"He is going to get a lot of flak from the Muslim community, who will feel that he has betrayed them, and from the liberal wing of the Church of England who will feel that he has stepped out of line."
Posted by Robert at March 27, 2004 8:58 AM
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"He's going to get a lot of flak from the Muslim community…"
More than that, he's going to be severely criticized by elements in his country, and around the world for not taking the postmodern, multicultural relativistic line that has been forced down our throats for many decades. I am sure that the outpouring of criticism will be HUGE. He is very courageous indeed.
We will have to add our voices to his cause. Enough smaller voices will have an effect. I wonder how many people who have prominent positions have the same courage and will come out for him in a notable and effective manner. I fear that few will be so courageous.
Posted by: epg at March 27, 2004 9:23 AMThe sad thing is that in order to make his criticism semi-palatable to Muslims, Carey needs to bend over backwards by saying absurdities such as:
"The positive is that I believe we can do more together. Two great faiths, Christianity and Islam, working together against extremists on both sides."
I am sure that "moderate" Muslims can give us alot of tips on fighting the "global network" of "Christian" extremists.
Moderate Muslims must take a stand against religious extremists, Singapore Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew said, warning that failure to do so would lead to Islam being "hijacked."
"I am saying that moderates in the Muslim world, by not being able to take a stand and take the lead and start the argument with the extremists in the mosques, in the madrasah [religious schools], they are ducking the issue and allowing the extremists to hijack not just Islam but the whole of the Muslim community."
The former premier said there was a danger the war on terror would widen the differences between Islam and the West, but this could be prevented if the moderates made their stand clear.
"Let's take 9/11 or Madrid," he said, referring to the September 11, 2001 airborne attacks in the US and the March 11 bombing in the Spanish capital that killed 190.
"If nobody except Europeans and Americans and those who are already committed condemn this -- I mean if all Muslim countries stay silent or Muslim groups stay silent -- then there is the danger that the Europeans and Americans may come to the conclusion, 'Look, there's really nobody on the other side that's standing up against this evil.'"
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2004/03/28/2003108063
Rosh, use your rosh and accept that there is no animal called "moderate Muslim." This stuff about Islam being hijacked is another dhimmi lie. Why repeat it. These guys are showing us Islam as it is. It is a bloody religion in which hatred is the primary value; in which murder is encouraged; in which the mistreatment of women is the norm; in which religious beliefs that are different from the Islamic ideology are not tolerated and the adherents are to be killed, made to submit to the vilest humiliations. How can there be any moderates when the ideology itself is immoderate?
Posted by: Helen at March 28, 2004 4:36 AMDear Helen !
You are so right ! When will people- all over where muslims have settled down - wake up ?
If there are Moderate Muslims, they are not muslims qua the Koran. There only exist Muslims and non-Muslims.
vivi
"Christian extremists" want to push the clock back to 1950 or so. "Muslim extremists" want to push the clock back to 650.
There's a world of difference in those two viewpoints, but the dhimmi press doesn't want to admit it.
Posted by: Susan at March 28, 2004 1:00 PMThe next time the Islamic community gets its knickers in a twist about a very measured, thoughtful and diplomatic comment by a respected individual, the press should ask them to publicly state their opposition to radical islamism with a public demonstration of loyalty to the country; a big demonstration with lots of Union Jacks, large banners reading 'British Muslims stand with Britain against Islamic Fascism'. In the absence of such convincing evidence of loyalty and support, what is one to think?
Mike H
Posted by: Mike Hartrich at March 28, 2004 7:45 PMLast Friday a British muslim wrote the following letter to Iqbal Sacranie (the leader of the Muslim Council of Britain who criticised George Carey's speech.)
"Could you please inform me whether you plan to hold any demonstrations against the evil terrorists who kill in the name of Islam? You've publicly condemned them but as well all know, word are easy to say; expressing our disgust at the actions of Muslim terrorist organisations can be best done through public demonstrations. I'm sure many Muslims will answer the call to such a protest, and would serve to demonstrate to many ignorant non-Muslims in this country and abroad that not all Muslims are bloodthirsty terrorists.
I joined the just protests against the invasion of Iraq along with many non-Muslims who have shown Muslims tremendous sympathy. It's time we show these people that we too are capable of reciprocating this sympathy by condemning those who seek to destroy this country, our home."
Phil:
What was the response by the Muslim Council?
This is exactly what is needed right now to show to the West that moderate muslims will actively oppose, fight, and turn in islamic fascists. Only such an active show of support will bridge the growing chasm.
Mike H
Posted by: Michael Hartrich at March 30, 2004 12:48 AMGood advice Mike, the only thing I 'fear' is that while the 'moderate Muslims' are doing it, they will be set upon by their extremist muslim counterparts and be whipped, or worse, bombed etc.Maybe thats why the mods are scared of making their stand against their fellow muslims so publicly known!
Either way, it HAS GOT to be done. The authorities in the UK need to put a real tighter rein on the Muslims, or else we will find ourselves 'seiged' on all sides. This is no seige mentality either!
Rgds,Ambrose.
Posted by: Hafis Anber at March 30, 2004 2:30 AM
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