Well, the camel's nose seems poised to make an appearance under the tent. Any chance Canada could be persuaded to take Detroit off our hands?

I still like the idea of fighting back by broadcasting the Lord's Prayer over a loudspeaker system. This will quickly make the mosque's back down, as they will not want to have their pure Islamic ears polluted by kuffarus prayers.

I think Placido Domingo or one of the other famous opera singers recorded a sung version of the Lord's Prayer. I'll take it over the azan anyday.

This must be fought as if it were a matter of
life and death.

For, in the space of a few generations it may
be just that.

I like Susan's idea. And there are some wonderful versions of "Ave Maria" out there, too.

Actually, any five George M. Cohan songs will do. "Yankee Doodle Dandy" will certainly jiggle some beads, and "You're a Grand Old Flag" says it all. I kinda like Jimmy Cagney's renditions.

I would like to then mount a loudspeaker on my roof that would shout "Shut the Fuck Up" five times a day.

Re: Doug

We'll take Detroit if you take Quebec :-)

Muslims must have their way..whether they are in the majority or in the minority. When should the call to prayer be heard in Detroit? I think only after church bells can be rung in Saudi Arabia and every other "Muslim" land. Tender Muslim feelings will probably be hurt, but I think the church bells might be theraputic!

Muslims can always argue that Christian bells are optional for Christians while prayer calls are mandatory.

Early Christians and many Christians up through the Middle Ages and later observed multiple prayers times, matins, being one example. Monks in Roman Catholic monasteries still observe multiple daily prayers. Some of the very devout observe multiple daily prayers, but, I am not aware of a Christian denomination that makes these ancient practices mandatory rather than desirable.

Hence, we Christians will frequently be trumped by the idea that playing a Christian hymnn or anthem 5 times a day is voluntary, not mandatory, while the call to prayer is mandatory.

Islam is very external and this gives it an advantage in the public sphere. One notices women wearing headscarves and calls to prayer.
All act as subtle messages that Islam is here next to us now.

Athena, the daily prayer itself might be mandatory, but the Call almost certainly isn't. To compare a church actor praying five times daily over loudspeakers for everyone to hear to chruch bells--which are, in essence, indistinguishable from clock tower bells--is patently absurd. If they do take this to federal court, they'll almost certainly lose.

Oh, and one more thing, Athena:

The argument that calling something "madatory" puts it beyond the reach of the law is equally spurious. EVERYTHING under sharia law is considered "mandatory," but none of it can be construed by the courts in such a way as to trump local, state, or federal law. Establishing an Islamic state is also mandatory under sharia law, but that isn't going to get you any traction in court should you try to do so.

If Muslims want to pray five times a day that's fine. Get a watch!

The call to prayer is intrusive to the lives of others and is, indeed, proselytizing, a practice that brings a death sentence in "Muslim lands," which the United States is not.

The nose of the camel is indeed under the tent, and soon there will be calls or "voluntary" Sharia arbitration courts and the insistence that the Michigan State Constitution be changed to require that state officials enforce this as is happening in Canada where the call for the Caliphate has been trumpted. No immigrant ha the right to ask for such intrusive and far reaching special treatment. Of course, Muslims believe that they are special, that's the problem.

Sage:

I agree with you entirely. I am on your side. I am just stating that this is the type of argument that I expect will be made.

Islam is like a barrel of snakes. First, make the argument that no one can truly understand the Islam unless they read the Koran in the original Arabic; Second, even if you read the Koran in the original Arabic you need to evaluate each verse in a particular context taking into account the idea of "abrogation" Thirdly, even if you read the Koran in the original Arabic and place each phrase in the proper "context" you have to take into account all the Hadith. So given that there is no central authority for Islam, once you try to determine what might be desirable vs. mandatory you are simply lost in endless debates that will rarely be satisfactorily resolved.

In my local area, I have seen that the "it is mandatory in Islam" used to create a Muslim prayer room in a public University. Of course, there is no Christian, Hindu or Jewish prayer room, no sanctified area for those religions, although there are many Christians, Jews and Hindus that attend my local university. Always Muslims push and Muslims get.

Don't forget Sage I am on your side.

A lightbulb moment. Muslim = Mandatory.

Here in the Biggest City In The NorthEast, the neighborhood actually got a church (Russian Orthodox I believe) to stop bell ringing (I think it was a recording!) in the early Sunday AM.

We also have a mosque that has a bright red ticker-tape like display promoting some cherry-picked quotes, etc. VERY annoying and, to me, insulting in-your-face.

I agree with all of the above. WE MUST STOP THIS DEATH BY 100 ISLAMIC CUTS. The best argument, I think, is the 'point to Saudi Arabia' argument. When there is TRUE religious freedom there, Muslims can have it here.

Susan and Sage:

Couldn't agree with you both any more than I do. Time to take it to the courts.

This might seem to be a minor matter, over whether azan gives way to angelus, or vice-versa. It isn't. The Shari'a carefully regulates such matters as when, and where, non-Muslims may worship. Their houses of worship must never o'ertop a mosque; mosques were deliberately built, as in Spain -- and indeed, the new mosque in Grenada is built on the highest point of the city, overlooking a convent, and the muezzin's five-times-a-day amplified wail has already made life intolerable for the Spanish nuns in that convent -- of course, none of this has been reported outside Spain. Christians and Jews were not allowed either to build new houses of worship, or even to repair crumbling structures. The Copts today suffer from that regulation.

The lawyers whom, one hopes, will take the case for the future plaintiffs -- if that sound-amplification is allowed -- should stress the fact that the tintinnabulation of church bells is like the chiming of a clock. Yes, those bells do indicate when church services are to be held, but they do not convey a specific religious message, or indeed any other message. Sometimes they are tolled for reasons having nothing to do with church services (some funerals, for example), or have nothing to do with religion or the church at all -- such as the tolling of bells on V-J or V-E day, or at the passing of a young president. They have, in American history, been used to summon the populace to meet in case of extreme peril, from weather or otherwise. So they are by no means, in their general import, as nakedly religious, and certainly do not contain the very specific call, to a very specific religion, that the muezzin's call to prayer does. Church bells ring -- do we even know which church it is, if we hear those bells from afar? Are we having a religious message thrust into our unwilling aural canals? No, we are not. Those bells anre content-neutral, as the late Paul Freund and the Supremes would say. Church bells have played a historic role in the community, one which all non-Christians --Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, all except for Muslims --do not object to: they summon people to gather in times of crisis, they give an alarm, they toll for the country.

The Hamtramck fracas is not minor. Any demand by Muslims to systematically press forward the borders of the permissible in order to give Islam an air of victory, of dominance, of triumph, of imposing itself, even if now only through the muezzin's wail, on the Infidels, is part of a systematic campaign. It is one with the attempts to demand special rooms to be set aside in public schools as "prayer rooms" or to exercise control over what students do, and do not, learn about Islam (they learn nothing of value now -- simply "sugary nonsense" in Patricia Crone's phrase in an article a year ago by Alexander Stille in the Times).

This is a geopolitical, not a religious matter. Some may be heartily sick of hearing this but others don't hear it nearly enough, so I shall unapologetically be a bore and repeat myself: Islam is not so much a religion as it is a belief-system concocted of pre-Islamic Arab lore, Judaism, Christianity, and bits of Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism, constructed to justify, and promote, the conquest of much more settled, civilized, advanced, wealthy, and above all more numerous peoples whom the early Arabs conquered. That is why Islam came into existence; it was fixed, early on; it cannot be changed; now technology, and the ability to migrate apparently largley unhindered to the Lands of the Infidels, is permitting conquest not through military means (that would be impossible), but through demography.

There is no parallel between the invasive nature, five times a day, beginning long before most people have awakened, and ending at night of a specific religious message (leaving aside the fact, of which our law unfortunatley cannot take note, that the muezzin's message is guttural and harsh and distinctly unpleasant, as Arabic is to most non-Arab ears -- that Call to Prayer is unlikely to be included on one of those CDs of "music to fall asleep by" --babbling brooks, the monsoon downpour, the chirm or matutinal cheep-cheep of birds, the sough of wind through the willows, that sort of thing).

Lawyers who may be reading this, please -- a little pro bono effort here will be good for you and for the safety and security of your childen. In that same spirit, I have decided not to charge the residents of Hamtramck for the 5-10 billable minutes that I, and my co-counsel, E. A. Poe, Esq. of the Baltimore bar, have spent on this memorandum.

Hey, I thought this might help the discussion:
The Muezzin’s droning Call to Prayer has seven elements: 1) God is most great, 2) I testify that there is no god but Allah, 3) I testify that Muhammad is the Prophet of God, 4) Come to prayer, 5) Come to salvation or deliverance, 6) God is most great, and 7) There is no god but God.

Where's the ACLU's outcry! They always seem to side against any form of religion or display of religion, why should this be any diferent?

Indeed, where is the ACLU? August 17, 2000, Denver International Airport. The local chapter of the ACLU supported a registered complaint against the airport because the airport announced over the public address system the Catholic Mass Schedule. (DIA Interfaith Chapel Inc., leases the space from DIA) The ACLU supported banning the
announcements citing violation of separation of church and state,(reported in the Denver Post). On December 5, 2000, the airport stopped the public service announcements due to ACLU pressure. Any lawyers want to handle?

ACLU will never help Christian expression.

Here is the game the ACLU plays. If any entity which receives any public funding permits any expression of the Christian faith, the ACLU claims that this amounts to the "establishment of religion" by the Government. Hence, can't hang a copy of the Ten Commandments in the Courthouse, can't hang a picture of Jesus in the hallways of a school, can't broadcast the announcement of a Catholic religious service from an airport loudspeaker. Their claim? Establishment of religion.

Now, flip the coin. Muslim wants a public or private organization to change its rules to accommodate his religious practice. ACLU supports this, claim that this is a "freedom of religion" issue, wants the organization to make an accommodation of the Muslim practice.

Given this approach, ACLU will never support the majority religion, Christianity or its source Judaism, only Islam. The ACLU has been infiltrated by a large number of dedicated, vocal and well-financed Arab-Americans who make sure that the resources of the ACLU suppress the public expression of Christianity and support the expression of Islam.

Although the Pacific Legal Foundation, the Thomas More Center and a few other organizations do take on lawsuits with a conservative bent, there is nothing that I know of that is concentrated on opposing the Islamization of America. Anti-CAIR might be one group, it is small, not well funded and it is currently under severe attic.

Remember anyone resisting Islam in America has to fight Saudi money. Better be well backrolled or they will drown you in a sea of lawyers.

Well looks like it has started, the islamic state within the united states; this could be the begining of our own jihad in our own defense. As for the courts, lets not forget that 90% of the judges are liberals, and will not stand for the rights of christians and jews. We will not win in the courts, the muslims will, with our own laws, that we created, to defeat us.

One possible solution is to take a decible reading of the local Church bells in the area at specific times that they are rung. This would be the standard level for the call to prayer. Furthermore, the length of time that the bells are rung would be the length of time that the call could be made. Finally, the call to prayer can only be made on Friday afternoon. Since Friday is to Muslims what Sunday is to Christians, that is the only day the call can be made. Although muslims are instructed to pray 5 times a day, the Friday obligation is the pinnacle of the prayer duty.

My suggestion is not perfect but this country is founded on Freedom of Religion. I am very well aware of the growing encroachment of Islam into American society. I am by no means an apologists. To allow the call 5 times a day, everyday would create a nuisance particularly at such a late hour in the evening.

By making such accommodations, we retain our Liberty and at the same time we make it clear that no religion will be made to appear superior.

BTW, if there is a reader on this site from Michigan area where this is happening, why don't you ring them up and let them know your displeasure. If they refuse to help, they look like hypocrits and can be used against them in the future.

John

the call to prayer is a prayer in itself

"There is no god but Allah and Mohammed (peace be upon him) is the prophet of Allah,"

this is a clear violation of the church and state rule wheres the aclu on this if i lived in the area i would be outraged as for church bells they are not prayers they are used for holidays and someplaces they chime the hour like a clock

the quotes where the english translation of the call that they want to make in arabic

the only way to stop it is to always demand the same ,fight for it, they want speakers then so do you and it can go on and on. This was how an employer got out of building a pray room for its muslim employees who demanded a prayer room and time to pray while on the job, the christian employees then demanded the same a small church and time to pray while on the job...in the end noone got what they wanted it got too out of hand so secular wins.. this is the best way to fight

The words of the Adhan (Call to Prayer) are:
Arabic: Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar.
English: Allah is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest.
Arabic: Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar.
English: Allah is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest.
Arabic: Ash-hadu alla ilaha illa-llah.
English: I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah.
Arabic: Ash-hadu alla ilaha illa-llah.
English: I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship but Allah.
Arabic: Ash-hadu anna Muhammadar-Rasulullah.
English: I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah
Arabic: Ash-hadu anna Muhammadar-Rasulullah.
English: I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah
Arabic: Hayya ‘ala-s-Salah, hayya ‘ala-s-Salah.
English: Hasten to the Prayer, hasten to the Prayer.
Arabic: Hayya ‘ala-l-falah, hayya ‘ala-l-falah.
English: Hasten to real success, hasten to real success
Arabic: Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar.
English: Allah is the Greatest, Allah is the Greatest.
Arabic: La ilaha illa-llah
English: There is none worthy of worship but Allah.

During the summer months I have often seen big tents holding what at times becomes raucous church services, at least by the sound of loud sermons, music and clapping that can be heard at long distances. "Praise the Lord" can be heard for blocks. Clapping to hymms can be thunderous. Anyone who doesn't like it be they atheist, christians of other denominations, new mothers of baby infants (trying to sleep-conjecture), etc., are subject to the religious expression they may disagree with, but must accept if permits have been granted under existing law. This can be fought as well in legal fashion, which is part of the freedom of our country.
The Adhan or call to prayer must be approached in the same manner. Less intellectual sorts can always just give it the 'old four letter retort', however, if a municipality agrees and allows it to to be done, take it to the court. Hopefully, the approach many accuse Muslims of won't be taken to stop what one disagrees with.
abu abdullah

Abu Abdullah:

We have no history of five public calls to prayer per day here in the USA. T o broadcast a call to prayer in public five times per day in Arabic is an injvasion of our 'Demos' our public space. Why should I have to listen to it? It is clearly a cultural import for a minority group of citizens. The call to prayer should be a private matter. One public call to prayer on one day per week could be allowed, since it fits the customary pattern of church bells.
A better idea: the mosques should play the call to prayer within their buildings but not without. This is not Arabia. This is the USA. No religion has the right to invade the public space five times a day!

Mike H

It is not the time for defeatist attitudes. It is time for us to band together and fight at the legislative level. The more attention this issue receives, the better.

Its time for us to start a petition to end this Prayer whine...This is America..Not Islam!
Someone start the petition to Deaborn...we all will sign it...get a grip America..If Dearborn gets this the rest of America will have to listen to this garbage! End this now before it is too late!

THE FAIR THING TO DO IS TO ALLOW THE CALL TO PRAYER BE DONE ON SUNDAY MORNINGS UNTIL NOON, OR WHENEVER THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES STOP THEIR CHURCH BELLS. FROM THE START OF THE CHURCH BELLS TO THE FINISH OF THE CHURCH BELLS ON SUNDAY MORNING ONLY AND NO LONGER, AND AT NO OTHER TIMES. WHAT THE ISLAMIC COMMUNITY IS PROPOSING IS AN ALL DAY ALL WEEK INTERRUPTION OF EVERYONES DAY. THIS IS NOT FAIR...ALSO, THE DECIBEL LEVEL OF THE CHURCH BELLS MUST BE RECORDED AND ALSO THE MEZZUIN CALLS DECIBLE LEVEL RECORDED.
LET NONE BE LOUDER THAN THE OTHER, AND ALSO, THE TIME LIMIT IS TO BE THE SAME...NOT LONGER THAN THE CHRISTIAN BELLS WHICH WERE THERE FIRST IN THE TOWN, AND NO OFTENER THAN THE CHRISTIAN BELLS RING IN TIME DURATION..ALSO, THEY CAN BE DONE ON THE SAME DAY OF THE WEEK....SUNDAY.

Abu said...

"During the summer months..."

What you note is something that happens occasionally as opposed to something that happens 5 times a day every day unto eternity. Nice try.

Your grandchildren will be Muslim. Get used to it, infidels.

Allah akbar

Hey Reza:

HAHAHAHAHAHA That's really funny!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's a more likely sceanrio:

The islamic world will begin to realize that it is at a crossroad;
EITHER:
The islamic world keeps its literal fundamentalist belief system, shariah, and attitude of ultimate global jihad against the infidels; In this case there will be a corresponding awakening in th West, and the islamic world will be destroyed by the cultural war it has initiated.
OR:
The islamic world undergoes a Reformation similar to the Christian Reformatiohn of the 16th century. In this case the islamic world will outgrow its atavistic, retrograde and calcinized rigidity and join the modern world as an equal and respected member.

Reza; when enough people here in the West, and spec in the USA wake up to the totalitarian nature of the current islamic fascist revival, there will be a real trouble for the islamic world. Not the highly restrained use of force by the US military as we currently see, but the application of real force used without restraint, with the full backing of the populace. We will not tolerate allow you to pursue your fascist agenda here in the West under the freedoms of the West. You seek to destroy these freedoms.

You have never had FREEDOM, because Islam only teaches SUBMISSION. A free people will never submit to a foreign ideology. We submit to God in our hearts, and not to a bunch of crazy mullahs who want to tell us how to live.

If you don't like living in the West, then leave.

Mike H

your grandchildren will be muslims..hahah fckn joke....christians from the balkans where under muslim rule for 500 years and didnt give an inch u neanderthal...this only males us stronger as christians and more eager to pull together and fight ur false religion...in the end only thruth prevails proven time and time again...conversion by the sword is not truth and islam cant handle the future which is why it is getting desperate..enlightenement, advancement and knowledge and freedom are islams worst enemy..thats the future...you still look to the past

muslims better pray the west doesnt turn to fascism as its method of defence, cause if it does u know quite well there will be no middle east in 24 hours, we have all seen what real power the west has summond in the past when it wants to do something....one thing the west has is knowledge and knowledge wins, these muslims cant even build the very guns they fire, truly pathetic
instead of waging war and submission why dont they try to find the cure for cancer,educate and enlighten themslves, research and benfefit, why does the west have to baby sit?

Evie...the only fair thing to do, is to allow the mosque to ring bells themselves...on Fridays if they prefer...but they, (muslims) are not looking for fairness...

Reza, more like your YOUR grandchildren will be Christian.

More people are converting to Christianity than are being born Muslim. AND Christianity will always trump Islam as the religion for the enlightened.

But you won't be around to see it, anyways...

I feel sorry for Reza- (apparently) the descendent of a proud and advanced civilization (Persia), he continues to permit the arab riff-raff to determine his theological and cultural future. I earlier suggested that he return to his religious antecedents (Zoroastrianism), and shake free from the imposed arab cult mentality. Obviously, no response to date. He'd rather be Ali's bitch than reassert the Persian cultural superiority. I'd guess his great-, great-, etc. grandfather would dam* his eyes for his abject capitulation to Islam.

Of course, I come from a tradition of Locke, Mills, Aristotle, Socrates... Descartes, Bentham, etc.

I'd like to see a LARGE group of Christians on the public sidewalk outside the mosque gathering to pray aloud in Jesus' name every time the call to prayer is sounded. If they want to make themselves more noticed then we can too.

Ladies & gentelmen, We give you the future."ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF AMERICA"
And yes, Most of your grandkids will be MUSLIMS & there is nobody can do anything to stop the future of this new Powerful American Muslim Generation...
"ALLAH BLESS AMERICA"

All I can say is America wake up before it is too late! Christian solders stand up and put on your armor. Before we turn into scared cowards like the French. Islam already controls them. Mohamed teaches by example if a people are too strong infiltrate until you are stronger and then convert or kill them.
Read the Koran. know the mind of the people that have declared war on us.

The Koran teaches that Isa son of Marium (Jesus son of Mary) was a great prophet of Allah. Yet Isa is a Jew. The Koran teaches "make no friends of the Jews or the Christians (The people of the book)
The strange thing is that the Koran also teaches that if you kill one inocent person it is as if you have killed everyone in the world. But of coarse killing Christians and Jews is ok cause they are not inocent but are infedels. This is the relegion of peace and love???
Mohamed is dead in the grave. Isa, yeshua, Jesus,
yasua has risen and died for all of us if we believe. He says I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the father but by ME!!!
Either he is a lier, madman, or the devil himself or he is truly who he said he was. But he can not be a true prophet of Allah and contradict what the koran teaches. Make your choice of where you will spend eternity. We all will see Messiah soon.
and he won't have 72 virgins with HIM. He will be here to judge the true infidels that have rejected HIS free gift of salvation.

Peace be with you.
I am not surprised by most of the messages on this board. Many Americans operate on emotions and assumptions instead of calm intelligence. It's rather disheartening to see this literate nation acting with prejudice. Since when has it been a crime for people in this country to outwardly practice their religion? Throughout history every great civilization that abandoned God, died. If the majority of Americans believe in God than why must it be hidden to appease the minority? Why aren't the church bells rung more often? I hope the call to prayer for the Muslims is allowed throughtout the USA. Let the church bells ring everyday as well. These both would be much better than the annoying rap music that blares past my home from car radios. The call to prayer and church bells are reminders that humble people do love and rely on a Creator. It really is nothing more than hatred or petty behavior on the part of those who don't want to hear the call to prayer, it lasts only a couple of minutes.

I'd get rid of the church bells before I'd allow myself to be forced to listen to Muslims proselytize five times a day. I can't believe that some people have a problem with "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, but don't have a problem with waking up to and going to bed with Koranic verses being intoned.

Lorri, you are being naive. Anywhere Islam becomes the majority religion, other religions are repressed. That is not emotion or assumption, that is fact.

Unless we as a spiritual people get OUR heads out of the sand ,we cannot complain on what is really about to happen.And if any of us have children think of what world they will have.It is time to live life for the furure of our childrenm and FIGHT!!!

Ride on drew! I met some people here in Maui on vacation and they are pissed as hell about this issue. They said that there is a pitition going around and they would emeil me it. I haven't heard of it yet but I will post it if and when I get it.
I can't believe this is coming from people who would kill someone for wearing a cross (and often do) in their own countries. Now they want to spread this like a cancer in what used to be the USA.
Has anyone seen the footage of the traing camps where they go in and shoot at the wooded figures?
Did you notice that the figures had big crosses on them??? If this isn't stopped now We will watch our women stoned for wearing make up etc etc etc... WE HAVE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT IT!
People here in the islands of the pacific are outraged about this. What is the matter with the people in Michigan???