Read all of it, fantastic.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/western1

and anti-Jihad
http://p197.ezboard.com/ftheantijihadforumfrm.1

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 7:32 AM

What security measures do they have to take, exactly?

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 7:40 AM

"What security measures do they have to take, exactly?"

That depends. Some of the most high-profile ex-Muslims, like Ibn Warraq or Ali Sina, write under false names and never show their faces to the general public. Ibn Warraq doesn't even reveal which country he lives in. Mark Gabriel does, and he has almost been assassinated several times.

Read the websites of ex-Muslims, including the two mentioned in the article above:

WEBSITES BY EX-MUSLIMS:

http://www.secularislam.org/

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

http://www.middleastwomen.org/

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/

http://www.mukto-mona.com/

http://www.homa.org/

http://www.ladeeni.net/english.htm

http://taslimanasrin.com/

http://www.muslimsandislamic.faithweb.com/

http://www.geocities.com/freethoughtmecca/

http://exmuslim.com/

http://www.islamreview.org/

http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/anwarshaikh/articles.html

http://www.shoebat.com/

http://www.noniedarwish.com/

http://www.murtadd.org/

http://www.webspawner.com/users/hfali1/

http://www.knowislam.info/

http://www.geocities.com/ibn_rushd2

http://www.ampbreia.com/

Some books by ex-Muslims, taken from the list here:

http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=661

"Leaving Islam - Apostates Speak Out" edited by Ibn Warraq

"Why I am not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraq

"23 years" by Ali Dashti

"Women and the Koran" by Anwar Hekmat

"Islam and Terrorism" by Mark Gabriel

"Islam and the Jews" by Mark Gabriel

"Rage against the veil" by Parvin Darabi

"Islamic Mysticism: A Secular Perspective" by Ibn Al-Rawandi

"Shame" by Taslima Nasrin

Coming soon: "A World Apart" by Ali Sina

Posted by: Ali Dashti at July 30, 2004 9:42 AM

I think that a crucial question which has to be raised is if there is ever any hope for a reasonable coexistence of Islam with other societies and cultures in the world. If the totality of Islam refuses to assure the safety of those who leave Islam, then I think there is probably nothing that can be done to deal with the ideology whatsoever and the people who advocate extreme measures are probably right. The only thing which gives me a glimmer of hope is that if one recalls, part of the purpose of the Spanish Inquisition was to determine who had made false conversions to Christianity and punish them. That sort of thing would be unthinkable now, so it's not impossible that Islam may begin its own reformation in time. However, that still does not stop the fact that Islam, as it currently stands, is a vital threat to the freedom and safety of the civilized world.

Posted by: Anduril at July 30, 2004 9:56 AM

I would comment further, after reading the article, on the words of Mr. Haidon. Honestly, he sounds like a good man who has been utterly and completely brainwashed by his intellectual captors. The questions that were raised of why he would join something he knows there are grave problems with is particularly telling about his own state of mind and point of view. Mr. Shoebat's comments about the problems of Islamic reform when the content of the Quaran are even more troubling. If there is no way that reform can occur without contradicting the written foundation of the religion, then the picture does look rather bleak.

Posted by: Anduril at July 30, 2004 10:15 AM

While I have not read the whole thing, my first question is about these words of Haidon:

Upon returning to the States, I began to study classical sources of Islam and medieval Islamic history, while pursuing a degree in politics and law. The more I learned, the more I realised that the foundation and values of Islam were very similar to my own religion.

So he was raised a Catholic, found something else he says is very similar, and then converts to that similar thing. WHY? He then goes on to say that, yes, there are these 'nasty bits', but tries to minimize them.

He then gets defensive when Shoebat and Darwish, who both very well know what Islam REALLY is, won't let him get away with this double talk.

I don't trust Haidon, I don't trust Haidon, I don't trust Haidon, I don't trust Haidon, I don't trust Haidon, I don't trust Haidon at all.

Posted by: Ethelred at July 30, 2004 11:26 AM

If Haidon is willing to accept that killing people for leaving their religion is wrong, at least that is a step in the right direction.

That is a lot more than what the average convert to Islam is willing to say.

Posted by: Suzan at July 30, 2004 12:56 PM

That guy is a bloody liar. But then, the planet is full of people like him. Take John Kerry for instance and his 5,000 word, hour long stream of lies last night...
I think it was a "brilliant" Speach. He proved just what a liar he really is. Most politicians would have avoided the skeletons in their closet. He choose to lie about them.

Posted by: Mullah_Abu_Bin_Boobie at July 30, 2004 1:21 PM

I think that it was telling when he said that " I won't accept anyone de-legitimising Islam". And then Shoebat said later, why not? Muslims de-legitimise christianity. I'd like to have seen the look on Haidon's face then.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 2:53 PM

Reform of the tenets of Islam that are fundamentally incompatible with the Universal Declaration on Human Rights (UDHR) would require a repudiation of the words and acts of Muhammed himself. Not gonna happen.

The ONLY solution to the scourge of jihad is abrogation. Abrogration requires that one must arise from within the ummah itself and lay claim to divine authority that is equal to the prophet Muhammed. For obvious reasons, such characters are few and far between in the history of the Islamic ideology, but they do occasionally appear. The most recent examples that come immediately to mind were the founders of the Babi and Bahai movements in 19th century Persia. The founder of the Babi movement was hunted down and executed by firing squad in Tabriz in 1850 and his followers were mercilessly slaughtered across the kingdom. The founder of the Bahai movement however, managed to escape the death penalty though he spent the balance of his life as a prisoner of first the Persion Shah and then the Ottoman Sultan. He died after a forty year incarceration in the Crusader fortress of Akka (converted to a prison by the Turks) on the northern tip of the Bay of Haifa.

So while I do not believe it is possible to reform the Islamic ideology to bring it into compliance with the UDHR, abrogation of the ideology is possible, as the approximately 300,000 Bahai adherents in Iran today can attest, if they can manage to stay alive of course.

Even if abrogatory movements like the Bahai movement can solve the problem once and for all, I think we're still looking at a two to three hundred year haul. So until these kinds of movements can subdue this murderous ideology from within, we in the non-Muslim world must continue, as our ancestors have done for 14 centuries, to run around the edges and keep a firm lid on the Islamic scourge with whatever force is necessary.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at July 30, 2004 4:50 PM

Anduril
I think that we might have to abandon the forum at the Human Rights Party at Delphi.

There may be sabotage going on which is preventing our posts from being posted there.

I read that at Geocities the vice president was a muslim and he eliminated all the anti-Islamic sites there, only keeping the pro-Islamic sites.

In the mean time, lets go to the Anti-Jihad forum at http://p197.ezbooard.com/ftheantijihadforumfrm1

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 5:02 PM

Hulegu Khan

I'm not willing to wait that long. I think that we should just destroy this bloody religion as quickly as possible.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 5:05 PM

Voltaire, Anduril, Hulegu

Running around trying to keep this scourge of Islam in check, as we have done for the last 1000 years, may have been alright in history. But it is not of any use when the Enemy is living within, has citizenship and intends, and does so, to use its entitlements to destroy the democratic West. Relying on time in this case, is to put civilisation in great jeopardy. Even if we win, the lengths we may have to go to, may well destroy the tenets of civilisation. Besides reform of Islam is not possible.

What is generally not realised is that this is a war that is being waged by Muslim civilians on 'Infidel' civilians. It is not the governments of Egypt or Pakistan, or its armies that are waging the Jihad. It is civilians against civilians. This is a war that each Muslim has to wage on the non-Muslim. It is known as the Jihad. That is, each Muslim is waging a personal Jihad on each and evry Infidel. It is private and personal. We have yet to understand this.

Our governments in the West meanwhile, are hamstrung; legally and philosophically bound to not distinguish between Muslim and non-Muslim civilians. This gives the Jehadis a major advantage.

We really need to understand this. This is an all civilian matter; in fact it is almost a private matter between Muslims and non-Muslims. As an example, Hindus in India, after a 1000 years of murderous persecution by Islam, have begun to understand the private nature of this war. It is remarkable the positive response this has evoked from the Indian Muslim.

At this moment in time, we are unable to act on the implications of the private and personal nature of the Jihad/war that the Muslim is waging on the non-Muslim. Till then, we will have to rely on muddling along.

Posted by: DP111 at July 30, 2004 5:54 PM

Great post DP111
However I'd like to do a bit more than muddle along.

As you say, it's civilian upon civilian, and yet if we do something to them, we are breaking the law.
Do we have to wait until they are the majority and bring in Sharia law before we do something?

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 6:21 PM

I suppose one thing that we can do, is to fight for the rights of apostates NOW.

We can set up apostates rights organisations in each city and country. That is doing something positive.

And we can always celebrate St James the Moors slayers day 25th July, plus the defeat of the turks (muslims) 12 September in Vienna by Jan Sobieski, and Charles Martel's defeat of muslims in the battle of poitiers, on 10th October.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 6:24 PM

Since the 9/11/01 attack I've attempted to educate myself on Islam because hypersensitive
Muslims screamed Racism if anybody questioned their Prophet Muhammed or even the Quran.
After almost 3 years I have concluded that Islam is a cancer on Earth that attacks democracies
and kills you from the inside outward.
The Quran and Muhammed base the faith that Christians and Jews are the enemy and the world
will be cleansed of the infidels if they don't convert. I have seen the "touchy-feely" tripe that Western Imam's display in the Media and they also use the F.C.C. to stifle people from hearing the real Islam.

I'm no fool,show me the proof directly from the Quran to defend Islam an a faith of tolerance and peace.One Islamic website defines "Tolerance" as a Arabic word for accepting different cultures and physical appearences as well as skin colour. The premiss of Islamic tolerance seems to be from a time when micro-cultures were all based on being Muslims.
Sorry Muhammed,those voices in your head were from dementia or Satan,the West is seeing protests from Muslim women fed up with the missogeny within Islam.

Posted by: ala-sux at July 30, 2004 7:03 PM

Hey Voltaire, you Catholic, Christian, Atheist or what? It doesn't matter in the long run, but I'm curious about mobilizing people within the Catholic faith who're angered over the Pope's apology about the Crusades (I'm only sorry the Crusades didn't go father and succeed better, actually).

Secondly, I would assume that if there was already a rat on the inside of the place, that any of us could be traced using even the scant information on the site. Therefore, it would be wise to take personal safety precautions as much as possible. (I suppose this would be wise for anyone, anywhere who speaks out against Islamism)

DP111, I don't believe that destroying Islamism/Islam would really require anyone to violate the tenets of western civilization. It may violate the tenets of a suicidal strain of liberalism in the short run, but I don't feel like being led over a cliff. I do try to remain optimistic, but I also believe in survival of my civilization and what it will take in the end for it to survive and prosper.

Posted by: Anduril at July 30, 2004 7:04 PM

Hi Anduril

I was baptised Church of England, but I'm not religious now.

We could contact catholic organisations, but I don't know how upset they would be about it though. Would many catholics even know about it?

Do you know that Yahoo is pro-muslim, and as I have already said, Geocities vice president is muslim and has eliminated all the anti-Islamic sites.

I'll keep posting the URL for the anti-Jihad forum, and we can meet there in the mean time.

Yes, it's a good idea to have safety precautions, and I'm beginning to realise that being involved in the anti-Islamic movement could put one's life in danger.

It's not going to stop me though. Living in an Islamic society is a fate worse than death, and I feel that I have to do my bit.

The URL for the anti-Jihad forum is:
http://p197.ezboard.com/ftheantijihadforumfrm1

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 7:32 PM

In what way is Yahoo pro-Moslem? They take pro-Palestinian positions or something?

There are conservative Catholics and I think there's probably a goodly number who may be open to the truth about Islam and action against it. Islam declares war on other religions and freedom itself. In this, everyone who is not an Islamist loses.

Finally, I don't mean to suggest that anyone should give up being active in the struggle against Islam, rather just having a realistic assessment of the risks.

Posted by: Anduril at July 30, 2004 8:42 PM

At anti-Jihad forum, they said that Yahoo was pro-moslem. I don't know anymore than that.

Posted by: Voltaire at July 30, 2004 8:51 PM

And the Sikhs say `Muslims are polluted` http://allaboutsikhs.com/rehat/rehat_17htm

Posted by: hutchrun at July 31, 2004 6:12 AM

Below is a mission statement by CAIR Canada and they overtly make it clear that non-Muslim are the bigots and racists that must be indoctrined
with the teachings of the Quran.
CAIR USA has a few postings for July 31st that
are about Canada and being a Canadian I can attest that the reports are missing the whole
facts and incite hatred towards non-Muslims.
The "Victim-Envy" syndrome has Muslim leaders and cleric's searching for any story that can be
dismantled and reconstructed to change the context and readers perception of North Americans.
I will now make it my burden to counter any of the Tripe from http://www.caircan.ca/aboutus.php
since there isn't any anti-CairCanada websites.
Yesterdays article in the www.Globeandmail.com by
a Ms.Khan from CairCanada started out to debunk the 9/11 report that Muslims were behind the attacks in N.Y. and WA.D.C. . The first few lines were subtle but blamed the attack on Israel and the JEWS,when will they come out of the denial and paranoia
mode to see that Islam is behind some of the terrorism. Ms.Khan is just one of many Muslims in Canada that have such a low value on life that they never mention any of the Canadians that were cremated against their will by Jihadists murdering Gods children in the name of Allah and Islam.
CAIR Canada list the Muslim population at about 500,000 ( depending on if they want Government handouts or want to threaten the Government at election time )and likes to use non-citizens to pad the numbers.
Ms.Khan should remove her Hijab and ask herself if the other 1200 Million Muslims outside Canada that remain silent about Jihad are really practising the true Islam and she's got it all wrong. Remember,apostates are the enemy of Allah and when come for her the Hijab will make it easy for the Jihadists to behead the Western Muslims that aren't "True" followers of the Pedophile murderer Muhammed and his Jew-Bashing Quran.
--------------------------------------------------
This is from CAIR's homepage under the "about us" menu.

What is CAIR-CAN’s mission?

Through activism in the areas of media relations, anti-discrimination and political advocacy, CAIR-CAN aims to educate Canadians and empower Canadian Muslims. We believe misrepresentations of Islam are most often the result of a lack of knowledge on the part of non-Muslims and reluctance on the part of Muslims to articulate their cause.

Posted by: ala-sux at July 31, 2004 9:30 PM