| FrontPageMag.com | By Robert Spencer | By Hugh Fitzgerald | Books | Jihad Watch | Islam 101 | Qur'an Blog | Raymond Ibrahim | Robert Spencer |  |
|
|
|||||||||||
|
|
We have posted many stories here about the plight of Christians in Iraq. Here is a new report from an Iraqi paper about the plight of Christians all over the Middle East, courtesy MEMRI:
In an article in the Iraqi daily Al-Zaman, a newspaper published simultaneously in London and Baghdad with an independent and liberal pedigree going back to the 1940s, columnist Majid Aziza highlights the plight of the Christian Arab community in the Muslim world. The following are excerpts from the column: [1]"Christians, natives of Arab countries, are escaping their countries of origin. This is a common statement nowadays everywhere and it is correct one hundred percent. Statistics show that a large number of them have emigrated to safer countries for them and for their children, like the United States, Canada, Australia, and Europe. The reason is the harassment to which they are subjected to by government agencies on the one hand and extremist groups on the other hand in countries they have inhabited for thousands of years…
"The Christians have lived in the territory currently referred to as [the Arab countries] for centuries alongside other religious groups, and particularly with Muslims who shared with them the afflictions of life. But the Christians have lost their partners for many reasons, including religious extremism among some Muslims, the demographic increases out of religious reasons, and the acts of discrimination, coercion, and individual and collective expulsion of Christians, and the pressures placed upon them even when they were serving their countries. There are many examples of that in Palestine, Iraq, Sudan, Lebanon, Egypt, and other countries.
"Approximately 4 million Lebanese Christians have emigrated from their country as a result of the pressures placed upon them by others. About half a million Iraqi Christians have left their country for the same reasons… The situation gets worse today because of the discrimination by salafi [Islamic fundamentalist] extremists. In Palestine, the Christians are becoming almost extinct as a result of the control of extremist Muslims on the Palestinian issue and the marginalization of the role of the Christians, apart from the negative impact of the Intifada, which is led by Islamist organizations, on the Christians of Palestine. With regard to Christians in Egypt, the Copts, what happened and is happening to them equally on the part of the state and the Islamists will suffice to fill pages of books and newspapers to explain the coercion, discrimination and persecution. What is happening in Algeria, Mauritania, Somalia, and others is too long to explain.
Read it all.
Posted by Robert at September 27, 2004 1:15 PM
Print this entry
| Email this entry
| Digg this
| del.icio.us
I heard that Iraq actually has a vibrant Christian community...they got along well with their Muslim neighbours. But then one of the other things that created a divide between the two groups (and this is what I heard through the news) was southern baptists sending people over there trying to convert Muslims. That angered the Muslims, disseminating ties which had existed for centuries, because of what they saw as further western encursion. I dunno..that's what I heard. although, that's not the only reason.
Posted by: Linda![[TypeKey Profile Page]](http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/nav-commenters.gif)
at September 27, 2004 1:48 PM
Well, I'd like to hear that story from an Iraqi Christian, rather than thru a news source. We all know how the media Loves to slant any story on religion. 0_0 It may have been something as simple as speaking/evangelizing to the wrong people in the wrong place- if it has actually occured. I'm sure the relationship between Christians and muslims was in a delicate balance for quite a long time. But at least the Baptists were Open about it, instead of hiding like the SA-run schools in the US and other countries do.
Posted by: Gary at September 27, 2004 2:39 PM
That is so true about persecution in indonesia.
The soon to be replace ambassador, ralph boyce, is a dhimmi. He thought by being a dhimmi he'd be appreciated by the indonesians, unlike his predecessor who called a spade a spade.
It turns out, that being a dhimmi, does not work. They still don't like him, to say the least. Not for him, nor anybody else, not now, not in a million years.
linda,
under saddam, everybody was under his tight grip,including the islamists that want the christians out of iraq.
now that there is freedom, these islamists are taking advantage to force their opinions on everybody, muslims and non musims alike.
Posted by: jasmine at September 27, 2004 3:28 PM
Uhh...don't chew my head off here. But this 'freedom' has apparently created more terrorists. More and more people are angry, but I will concede the fact that some Iraqis are enjoying a better lifestyle, I read that the average monthly salary used to be $10 to $15 a month, and now it's triple that. But, no WMD's were found. I heard from my prof that the US had a plan called 'The future of Iraq' that the government spent millions on analyzing what would happen when the Iraqi government was deposed of. But when the invasion took place, the government didn't want to implement the plan, due to the fact that Rummy thought that implementing the plan would take years.
Posted by: Linda at September 27, 2004 3:36 PM
Linda:
At the time when decisions were being made about Iraq, international opinion from France to the UN, was convinced that Iraq was in possession of WMDs. Now we know that Iraq did not have WMDs, but that does not alter the position that GW was presented with at the time. Moreover, after 9/11, no responsible President could take the risk that Saddam would not pass on WMDs to some of the terrorist groups he was in league with and set off a dirty bomb in Manhattan. I for one would not like to be the President that allowed such a scenario to occur, particulary after the warning of 9/11.
As for the war in Iraq - this is just one in a series of wars that the US and its allies will undertake in the next 50 years or so. In the next 4 years, I see atleast 2 wars by the US + allies, in different part of the world, probably the ME. This is a foreboding prediction but there is really no alternative. Its that or face 9/11 at home in the West again and again. 9/11 has opened a door to a world full of chaos and statism of religion. The gusts from that world are blowing in to our world.
Belmont Club has a good analyis of this
http://belmontclub.blogspot.com/
A good article on the enemy we are up against is here
http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/SunSpec/Sept04/index141.shtml
There several other articles by David Warren on the site.
In fact even the wars we underake will not be sufficient a deterrent to a terrorist attack in the West. Nothing will stop it except stopping it
at September 27, 2004 5:10 PM
Saddam was a terrible man, but I guess that the Christians of Iraq will miss him.
As will the Yezidi, the Kurds (although it may take a while for the Shiites to kill as many as Saddam did, they'll do it eventually) and of course, the Sunnis/Baathists already miss him.
I've been telling people since Bush first floated the idea of invading, waaay back in August 2002: the last thing we want in Iraq is a democracy, because the first thing a musilm majority does is "vote in" a theocracy. But these crazy, red-eyed Shiites can't even wait until "the elections in January 2005" to legally dmhimmitize and persecute the Christians!
Likewise will it go for all minorities in Iraq, and the poor women of Iraq. Saddam had female judges, attorneys, and doctors in his country 34 years ago.... I hope they hung on to their cookbooks.
Can someone please restore the little bit of respect I had in conservatism and make a case that the Shiites of Iraq AND IRAN aren't enthusiastically happy that Bush is in power?
Posted by: kj at September 27, 2004 6:13 PM
When has it EVER been safe for Christians in the dar al-Islam? Get real.
Posted by: Mike at September 27, 2004 6:23 PM
WMD have not been found, beside a few artillery shells (one actually used) and we know now that Saddam's regime in the 1990s lacked the resources to build additional stockpiles of bio-chemical weapons (at least to any significant degree) or develop his ruined nuclear program.
But folks have utterly forgotten that significant stockpiles of weaponized bio-chemical agents were never accounted for, even according to Hans Blix.
Is it rational to presume that these were destroyed (which would involve Saddam spending money) but just not sufficiently documented?
Is it rational to presume that the fastidious Iraqi record keepers just made clerical errors?
Posted by: JTF at September 27, 2004 6:28 PM
Yep, Linda, them dang Southern Baptists, screwin' it up for Iraqi Christians, causin' all that murder and mayhem...
Just like them Buddhists in Thailand, them Hindus and Sihks in Indian, and them Christians and Hindus in Indonesia, and them Copts in Egypt, and them Christians in Nigeria, and them inferior, black Muslims in Dafur, and them Christians in the Philippines, and them dang Jews just about everywhere, Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia, Kenya, Israel and just about every dang Arab country there is. Yep, those irritators, they shouldn't-a been so dang mean. That's why they got the boot...
And while were at it, those damn Infidels just about anywhere, yep, those damn American Infidels, that's why they got 9/11, why don't they leave Muslims alone; and those dang Spaniards, goin' into Iraq with peace-keepin' troops, that's just dang irritating, no wonder all them Infidels got Madrid, and those dang Aussie pagans in Bali drinkin' all those suds and carrying on, ain't that just plumb irritating?
And don't forget them godless Russians...
When we will all these religous irritators, and these war mongering Infidels just get off their high horse and quit irritatin' the peace-lovin' Muslims who are tryin' so dang hard to get along with everybody...dang!
Posted by: JTF at September 27, 2004 6:58 PM
JTF, I think we have another Steve_UK in our midst.
Posted by: Carolyn2 at September 27, 2004 7:08 PM
Read the next thread's comments, you know we shouldn't worry about Sharia law. It's not so bad (camel's nose under the tent) Christians are the problem, blah,blah, blah. The use of colloquializms is a give-away to me.
Posted by: Carolyn2 at September 27, 2004 7:16 PM
I don't know, Steven is what I'd call a 'rambli' man', and I ain't sure he had the word 'vibrant' in his vocabulary; and surely by this time, if Linda were like our other friend, we'd be lookin' at so many links to stuff that don't make no sense whatsoever, that we'd either be asleep or havin' a beer...
Posted by: JTF at September 27, 2004 7:19 PM
Yes indeed Carolyn, them there comments on Sharia make about as much sense as blamin' the Jihad against Iraqi Christian on Southern Baptists...
But Linda' talkin' grammatical, got a little vocab, too. I believe the comment about the prof, but who knows in this here neighborhood.
Maybe a little misguided devils advocate...
Yep, and I'd watch those dang Jew courts in Canada, too. You know them Jews; there is more of them out there than the stars, and they are just always plottin' somethin'. How in the hell can you say 'yes' to them and tell the Mulsims that they can't have their court, too? Double-standard...just like them there nuclear weapons, We just outta give some to the Arabs and the Iranians to make 'em feel better about themselves.
at September 27, 2004 7:30 PM
WMD'S not found
To those of you that are dwelling on the finding of these wmd's,lets not absolve the U.N. for their lack of asserting an opinion on the
existance of them that only clouded the Iraq
situation.
It was the U.N. themselves boasting the need for their inspections because of some 7,000 missisles
or "Warheaded" rockets that were un-accounted for.
I blame the U.N. and Saddam for creating the conditions that lead to this mess,a perfect example of this is in the Western media when reporting on Police behaviour. A criminal makes a free-will decision to continue their lifestyle
of obeying the laws of the land they chose to stay in,this criminal decides to flee from a Police request to stop their car for a possible
violation of traffic Acts,during a high-speed
attempt to flee the Police follow the car,when
a crash occurs and citizens and property suffer,the media headline usually is "Police chase leads to death and destruction of property".
My headline is "Criminal shows no concern for danger to persons and property by speeding to avoid a traffic stop",this is why I hold the U.N.
partly to blame for this mess and allowing Saddam to mock their Resolutions by seeing that a failure to comply only reaped another hollow threat of another Resolution.
BTW ,a movie mocking Michael Moore is
coming out on Oct 5th,lets see how he handles
free-speech when it's HIM being mocked on the silver screen in FarhenHYPE-911 .
at September 27, 2004 7:40 PM
And since Carolyn was polite enough to bring up somethin' in the other thread, I will respond here.
Yep, Linda has a point about them dang Christian fundamentalists. They is dangerous. And I swear, every dang time I take the train to work or flyin' in an airplance, I worry about one of them sons-a-bitches stickin' a bomb somwhere. I do. That Pat Robinson and Jerry Falwell and those other folks in Canada, they are willin' to blow me up, kill my friends and family, and destroy just about everything I like, and that includes a good shot a whiskey now and then, to set up a dang theocracy...I swear, that's the honest truth.
So, the next time a bible beater comes up to you and asks you if you found Jesus, you just boop him on the head and tell him that he can take his bombs and guns, and child-killin' suicide bombers and eat your shorts!
Posted by: JTF at September 27, 2004 7:49 PM
Linda, you have an awful lot of learning about Islam to dispel you massive ignorance about this incredibly murderous movement...
And my guess is 'what you've heard' is probably from CNN or NPR or along that lines right!?
Proud Darul Harbian
Posted by: Albertanator at September 27, 2004 11:40 PM
If you want to hear what the Iraqi Christians themselves have to say, go to the net and look up info on Assyrians--there's an Assyrian International News Network or something along that line, too, that puts up information in English, Arabic, and neo-Syriac (this language survives among Christians between Lak Urmia in Iran and the Mosul Plain in Iraq).
Posted by: Kepha1 at September 28, 2004 12:04 AM
KJ, one reason why Iran is mulling first strike capability is precisely because Bush is in power--he won't be a walkover. Also, you are being a bit unfair to a lot of Iraqis. Many of the bloggers from Iraq are as appalled at the terrorists as you--and they include both Arab and Kurd Muslims and Assyrian/Chaldaean Christians. Some like _Iraq the Model_, _Mesopotamian_, etc. have spoken against attacks on Christians in Iraq.
True, much of the Islamic world follows the extremists, but there are cracks, and I wish them well. The fact that we can hold Iraqi Kurdistan with 300 pairs of boots and it's taken us more than a year to wrack up 1000 fatalities (KIA, accidents, "friendly" fire together) in a country where everyone totes an AK suggests to me that a lot of Iraqis simply aren't trying very hard to get rid of us. Hence, I'm willing to say there are Sunnis and Sunnis, SHi'ahs and Shi'ahs.
At the risk of sounding like Jean-Francois Kerry, all policy questions are tough--whether the President is a conservative or a liberal. Lots of choices and possible outcomes have to be weighed before a decision can be made. Much has to be decided on tentative information--for it's only in the movies that the CIA and NSA know everything.
BTW, as for us Evangelical conservatives in general, we have argued for consent of the governed and rule of law since the 16th century (read Knox, Buchanan, DuPlessis-Mornay, Marnix van St. Aldegonde, Althusius, Beza, and Calvin himself--all advocates of government by compact long before John Locke was born)--and have even worked republican structures into our forms of church government (I laugh at liberals who think I kiss an archbishop's ring--and I've met such types). Limited, republican government IS our TRADITION that we seek to CONSERVE. I'm not saying we're perfect, but what I've written is part of what we are.
Posted by: Kepha1 at September 28, 2004 12:19 AM
(Note: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off-topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch or Dhimmi Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.)