I'm from Sardinia,one of the two major Italian islands along with Sicily.

You know what?

The Flag of Sardinia represents the 4 Moorish heads !

I find nothing bad in that..

Posted by: stefania at October 21, 2004 7:43 AM

Sardinia's Flag

Posted by: stefania at October 21, 2004 7:49 AM

Sardiania's 4 Moorish Flag

Posted by: stefania at October 21, 2004 7:55 AM

Good idea! Since the survey of 600 people shows they really didn't understand the significance of the heads, they can be replaced with crucifixes - wouldn't want to just leave a blank space there.

For some reason, the ACLU and the city of Los Angeles comes to mind, but I don't know why. I mean, afterall, this is a story from Madrid. Maybe it's the Spanish name Los Angeles. I've heard it means "the muslims", from when they discovered the New World.

Abe Lincoln comes to mind too, "You can appease some of the people, some of the time..." - no,no, that's not right either. History gets so confusing when it is supressed.

/sarcasm off, but still simmering

Posted by: Ollie's Snackbar at October 21, 2004 7:59 AM

PC morons

Posted by: Interestd at October 21, 2004 8:48 AM

Very interesting, Stefania. I had a look and sure enough, four heads of Moors with white bandanas. And a big red cross in the middle of it all. You better hope the ACLU doesn't get its sticky claws on your flag because it would remove everything and leave you with just a white flag. How appropriate - white flag: surrender (to Islam).

In the case of Spain: I'm sure Mr. Bean (Zapatero) will be falling all over himself to remove those nasty symbols immediately. Jump for your Islamic masters, Zapatero! Higher! Higher!

Posted by: feralee at October 21, 2004 8:52 AM

Once the moors heads are gone the islamists will demand that the shield have 4 christian/infidel train commuters severed heads on it...after the islamists take over Spain that is.

Posted by: obl r us at October 21, 2004 9:07 AM

How bout they double the size of the shield and put four more muslim heads up there with the existing ones.

Posted by: DCWatson at October 21, 2004 9:28 AM

Demand, demand, demand. To remove the heads from the flag, pork products from the shelves, to change billboards, to allow foot washing in public restrooms before prayer, prayer rooms, to allow BLARING loudspeakers six times a day to call for prayer, to restrict cafeteria lunch menus that could "pollute" the janitors that have to empty the trash and Muslim students, that public school curricula be adapted to Muslim standards that are incompatible with the principle of the separation of church and state... the list list of THEIR demands is endless. Of course the list of demands is even greater in Europe.

Question -- Why does a host society have to change to accommodate a TINY group of immigrants, especially a group that demonstrates that it is hostile to the rest of society? This is the ULTIMATE ABSURDITY!

Posted by: epg at October 21, 2004 9:55 AM

(to EPG) ...especially when Muslim countries are so accommodating to their minorities...

...that it makes me want to puke.

Posted by: waterdragon52 at October 21, 2004 10:21 AM

No, Los Angeles has nothing to do with Arabs or moors, it simply means The Angels, although the full name is Los Angeles de Nuestra Sen~ora de la Porcincula.
I am a spaniard and I have no idea what the Porcincula means.

Incidentally, I lived in England for quite a while and I have seen a popular pub name crop up: The Turk's Head. I vaguely remember reading about groups trying to pressure them to change the name.

Posted by: Teaman at October 21, 2004 10:42 AM

Interesting. The Sardinain Flag is a Jerusalem Cross, except with severed Saracen heads for the four little corner crosses. Nice.

Posted by: MontJoie at October 21, 2004 10:58 AM

By the way, those aren't sweatbands, they're blindfolds. How kewl is that? Viva Santiago Matamoros!!

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at October 21, 2004 11:14 AM

How about some reciprocity here? When is the Hagia Sophia going to be converted back to a Christian Cathedral? When are the anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-infidel statements in the Qur'an going to be removed?

What is this crap? When the Egyptians stop persecuting the Copts, when the Turks allow Christians freedom to practice their religion, when the Saudis allow a Christian church to built, and I could go on and on, that is when we might begin to consider making some changes. The world is going frickin insane.

This post just about covers everything that needs to be said:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/003125.php

Here is a great little summation of the evils of cultural relativism:

In his excellent book, The Killing of History (San Francisco: Encounter Books, 2000)Keith Windschuttle says, among many other intelligent things, as follows:

"The late Ernest Gellner pointed out the basic logical flaws in cultural relativism. In his book Postmodernism, Reason and Religion, Gellner showed that relativists are saddled with two unresolvable dilemmas. They endorse as legitimate other cultures that do not return the compliment. Some other cultures, of which one of the best known is Islam, will have no truck with relativism of any kind. The devout are totally confident of the universalism of their own beliefs which derive from the dictates of God, an absolute authority who is external to the world and its cultures. They regard a position such as postmodern cultural relativism as profoundly mistaken and, moreover, debasing. Relativism devalues their faith because it reduces it to merely one of many equally valid systems of meaning. So, entailed within cultural relativism is, first, an endorsement of absolutisms that deny it, and, second, a demeaning attitude to cultures it claims to respect." (p. 301-2)

Posted by: Admiral Don Juan at October 21, 2004 11:39 AM

What next ? muslims demanding that the crosses of all European nations be removed from our flags ? Don't laugh , some PC group will support them and the BBC will run a competition for what should replace the crosses. Already a dhimmi troll called Lowri Turner (TV pundit) has said that the Cross of St.George be removed as the English flag. "Imagine" she said "that you are an Albanian refugee and you walk out of an underground station and see the Cross of St.George flying on a church - it would be like seeing a swastika ." !!! She said this on daytime TV and not a word , that I know of, has been said against her. Someone should dump the stupid dhimmi in Iran and leave her there.

Posted by: Son Of Albion at October 21, 2004 1:08 PM

I can see that I will have to put Sardinia on the list of places to visit.

"your grandchildren will be flag waving Sardinians."

Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) at October 21, 2004 2:19 PM

Hello again. Greetings Sheick Canuck. Didn't earlier you say that you are a Free Mason? I like Free Masonry, you're my friend.

Anyway, I thought the Aragon flag was stripes? Eh? Sardinia (the big island in the south) has the moor heads, not Aragon.

Posted by: Ibn Rushd at October 21, 2004 2:23 PM

And: calling all Spanish speakers. There is a new forum for you. Visit http://spanish.faithfreedom.org/forum

Posted by: Ibn Rushd at October 21, 2004 2:24 PM

Spain is rotten. I am a Portuguese and many Spaniards may take this as an insult, when it isn't. I am one of those Portuguese who actually loves Spain, and to witness something like this happening to a country which is culturally so close to my own, pains me almost as much as if it was happening to Portugal. In my country this would never happen, since PC is not half as established as it is in Spain or in Britain.

For heaven's sake, Spaniards! Go to the streets, collect signatures, mobilize yourselves! Do something!

A nation is defined by its territory, by its people, and by its culture. If you don't watch out, you will lose all three in a matter of three or four generations.

Posted by: alex221166 at October 21, 2004 2:35 PM

"You know what?

The Flag of Sardinia represents the 4 Moorish heads !

I find nothing bad in that.."

Nothing wrong with that at all --they should be on a stick!!

Posted by: Kemaste at October 21, 2004 2:39 PM

Here's the crest of Aragon:
http://www.caiaragon.com/en/arbol/index.asp?idNodo=86&idNodoP=21
Kick-ass!

Posted by: Rottweiller at October 21, 2004 3:03 PM

The Cross of Saint George or Cross of Alcoraz: In this square The Cross of Saint George is surrounded by four Moor heads, on a silver background. It recalls the victory of the Christian troops lead by Pedro I in 1096, against the Muslim Army, in the hills of Alcoraz.

Posted by: Rottweiller at October 21, 2004 3:05 PM

Just gets better and better, doesn't it? the cocky little bastards are getting louder and louder!

I was just thinking of Sardinia's flag before I scrolled down and saw Stefania's post - make sure all your friends are buying and flying their flags from now on! In fact, Corsica also has a flag with a single moors head on it, so if you know any Corsicans, tell them to get buying and flying!

As others have said, we can expect further demands on this line, maybe objecting to all of Scandinavia's flags.

I'm from Ireland, we have the colour green on ours, as this is supposed to be the colour of islam (and no-one elses I suppose) will they be demanding us filthy infidels stop using their sacred colour? I kinda wish they would, I'd love to see the reaction from certain quarters!

Posted by: saoirse at October 21, 2004 4:31 PM

You have to read this article. It's from 1979 and the plan was in effect then as to what Muslims were going to accomplish in Europe.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/197901/muslims.in.europe-the.presence.htm

Muslims in Europe

The Presence

"With customs, culture and religion that differ sharply from those of host countries, the Muslim immigrants - like all immigrants - have faced misunderstandings..."

Written by John Lawton
Photographed by Tor Eigeland

Islam, today, is the second largest religion in Europe; and Muslims - more than five million in 1978 - now make up 40 percent of the Common Market's foreign work force. Arabs, Asians, Africans and Turks, their labor has helped build a prosperous Europe and, through wages sent home, has contributed to prosperity in the countries from which they have come.

Inevitably, the mass movement of Muslim manpower has created problems. With customs, culture and religion that differ sharply from those of host countries, the Muslim immigrants - like all immigrants - have faced misunderstandings, hostility and, within their own communities, cultural and religious strains. Yet Islam, barely visible since the fall of Muslim Spain (See Aramco World, September-October, 1976) is now firmly implanted in Western Europe. United by their faith, Muslim immigrants from nations as far apart as Malaysia and Morocco are working together to build mosques, establish Muslim cultural centers, and press common demands for political, economic, social and religious equality with their European hosts.

Because the problems vary from country to country, these efforts, initially, were launched on an individual basis. The Islamic society of Ireland, for example, set up the Muslim Youth Center in Dublin; the government of Iraq set up the Iraqi Cultural Center in London, and the Islamic community of Lisbon spent 12 years winning the approval of Portugal for construction of a mosque. But now, in an important step toward consolidation of effort, the London-based Islamic Council of Europe is attempting to coordinate the efforts of more than 24 Muslim organizations in Britain, West Germany, France, Scandinavia, Italy, Switzerland, Austria and the Benelux countries.

Established in May, 1973 - in accordance with decisions of the Second and Third Islamic Conferences of Foreign Ministers held in Jiddah, Saudi Arabia and Benghazi, Libya - the council has been working in close cooperation with international Islamic organizations, the governments of all Muslim states and other institutions serving the cause of Islam.

According to its Secretary-General, Salam Azzam, the Islamic Council of Europe has two main objectives: "First, protection, preservation and promotion of the religious and cultural life of Muslims in Europe. And second, the development of a better understanding of Islam in the West."

Islam, in fact, is no newcomer to Europe. Present-day Portugal and Sicily were once predominantly Muslim. In Eastern Europe, large Muslim communities have existed for the past nine centuries - some the descendants of Mongol forces that reached Poland and Lithuania. In Western Europe old Muslim communities still survive in France, Italy, Britain, The Netherlands and, of course, Spain - where Muslim rule provided both Islamic and European history with some of its most glorious chapters. (See Aramco World, September-October, 1976).

The Muslims first came to Europe in 711 and subsequently established an illustrious civilization in most of the Iberian Peninsula that lasted for eight centuries. In 831 Muslim forces also won a foothold on Sicily and ruled there for over 260 years (See Aramco World, November-December, 1978). Finally there came the Ottomans, who ruled the Balkans from the 14th to the 19th century and, at the height of their power in the 17th century, reached as far west as the gates of Vienna.

As a result, says Azzam, "the West has generally known Islam as an enemy and a threat."And as a result," said Khurshid Ahmad, formerly the Director-General of the Islamic Foundation, an educational trust at Leicester, England, "Islam is the most misunderstood religion in Europe today."

In an effort to build new bridges of knowledge and cooperation between the Muslim world and the predominantly Christian West, the Islamic Council of Europe has been organizing important programs and conferences - such as the International Islamic Conference held in London in April, 1976. Organized in cooperation with King Abdulaziz University in Jiddah, on the occasion of the World of Islam Festival (See Aramco World, May-June 1976), the conference - attended by scholars and statesmen from 33 countries - attracted large Muslim and non-Muslim audiences, and several of its main speakers addressed themselves to the question of misunderstanding.

At the opening of the conference, for example, His Royal Highness Prince Muhammad ibn Faisal of Saudi Arabia stressed Islam's tremendous impact on world history and its unique contributions in the fields of education, art, science and technology. He also urged non-Muslims "to examine without prejudice the religion of over 800 million fellow human beings."

Other speakers at the 10 public sessions developed the same theme. Some speakers reminded audiences that the European awakening, represented by the Reformation and the Renaissance, owed much of its inspiration to contact with Islam. Others pointed out that such universities as Paris, Oxford and Cambridge came into existence under the influence of the universities of Muslim Spain - facts, the London Times commented, of which most Europeans were "abysmally ignorant."

The London conference also addressed itself to what, for the Muslims in Europe, are even more pressing and practical problems. One was economic assimilation. When the mass migration of foreign workers into Western Europe first began in the 1960's, most Europeans assumed that "guest workers" would stay for a few years and then take their savings home. It was a temporary arrangement, they believed, so little was done to integrate the new arrivals or to provide for their special religious, educational and social needs.

But as the total of foreign workers reached 12 million - nearly five percent of the EEC's total population - the problems could no longer be dismissed as temporary or minor. Because the EEC countries had initially paid so little attention to them, many migrants wound up in crowded ghettoes, politically impotent - and with close to 20 percent of their children receiving little or no education.

The problem worsened in the 1970's, when economic recession lessened Europe's need for foreign workers. Earlier the migrants' contribution had been vital; but with the slump, Europe's welcome cooled and unemployed Europeans began to clamor to get back the jobs they had previously - and eagerly - turned over to the migrants. The result, particularly in urban areas, was tension. As The Economist in Britain put it: "Xenophobia in Europe is rising."

By 1978 all West European countries had closed their doors to non-Common Market immigrants and some had begun to encourage emigration. France, for example, is now offering $2,000 to each foreign worker who agrees to return home. But as millions have opted to stay in Europe - and as close to half of them are Muslims - worried religious leaders have begun to cooperate in an effort to head off potential conflict. In West Berlin, for example, the Standing Conference of Jews, Christians and Muslims in Europe has warned that if Christians and Muslims do not learn to live together there could be trouble.

Azzam, of the Islamic Council, agrees. "The need for a better and more sympathetic understanding of Islam was never as great as it is today. The presence of significant Muslim populations in every country in Europe, in almost every city and region, has made it necessary for the local communities to understand the beliefs and life patterns of their Muslim neighbors."

Some countries, certainly, have already taken steps to alleviate problems. Belgium and Austria, for example, now officially recognize Islam as a religion. But the bulk of Europe's Muslims do not live in Belgium and Austria. Of a total of 5.4 million, 1.9 million live in France, 1.5 million in West Germany, 1 million in Britain, 500,000 in Italy, 350,000 in the Benelux countries, 40,000 in Scandinavia, 25,000 in Spain and some 5,000 each in Austria, Portugal and Switzerland.

Some problems - the result of social and political neglect - internal. "One of the biggest problems facing Muslim immigrants," says Azzam, "is providing religious education for their children." To resolve it, the Seventh Islamic Foreign Ministers Conference - which met in Istanbul last year - pledged assistance to the Federation of International Arab Islamic Schools set up by Saudi Arabia to provide education for Muslim children whose parents work abroad.

The parents, to be sure, had already made some arrangements for religious instruction. They had organized evening and weekend classes in homes, rented halls and makeshift mosques all over Europe. And in countries where religious instruction is provided in state schools, Muslim parents, in cooperation with school authorities, had frequently arranged for religious education of their children in their own faith. But those steps, says Ahmad, are insufficient to properly educate the new generation of Muslims now growing up in Europe.

Another important problem is that there are too few mosques in Europe for the growing Muslim population. Until recently, in fact, there were almost none, and Europe's Muslims had to establish hundreds of temporary mosques in converted houses, shops and even disused Christian churches. But now minarets can be seen sprouting above the rooftops in cities and towns in Britain, West Germany, France, Belgium, Denmark and The Netherlands, and additional mosques are being built or planned. And in Germany one innovative group of Turks regularly takes over a local tourist attraction for prayers: a replica of a mosque completed in the 1780's by a German Prince at Schwetzingen, near Mannheim.

As in all Muslim countries, Europe's mosques serve not only as places of worship, but also as centers for Islamic studies, meeting places for the local Muslim community and centers of social activity. The new mosque at Munich, for example, is often used by Turks traveling home by road as an overnight resting place and the proposed Islamic Center at Amsterdam will include a library, language laboratory, sports and hobby areas and an adjoining apartment building, in addition to a mosque.

"Islam is not simply a religion in a limited sense of the word," said Khur-shid Ahmad, now Deputy Minister of Planning in Pakistan. "It is a complete way of life. It fashions the social attitude and behavior patterns of its adherents: their food, dress, marriage and family life and social relations..."

Because of this, Muslims in Europe frequently face problems that other Europeans do not. Muslims, for example, prefer to separate girls and boys in school and consider marriage a matter of personal rather than legal status, and in a recent British court case, a Muslim teacher argued that he should be granted time off for prayers during school hours. As a consequence of these different views, Muslim efforts to achieve legal, religious and political equality with Europeans are complicated and often bring them into conflict with established customs and laws.

Progress, nevertheless, is being made. By a special Act of Parliament on July 19, 1974, Belgium recognized Islamic law; the Common Market Commission has recommended that immigrants' political rights should be extended; and a special parliamentary committee has been set up in Britain to study such Muslim demands as allotment of government land for construction of mosques and recognition of Islamic holidays for Muslim workers.

Some Muslims in Europe, however, feel that in view of the large amounts of money they are sending home - in the form of savings and support for relatives - they have earned stronger backing from their own countries. Pakistani workers, for example, point out that foreign-currency remittances from workers abroad were, in 1977, Pakistan's second largest source of foreign exchange - the equivalent of about $450 million. Turkey also depends heavily upon the money its workers abroad send home; the total in 1976 was $982 million, about half the value of Turkey's exports.

These contributions obviously warrant support. "But not enough is being done by governments of Muslim states for Muslims living in Europe," Azzam says. "On the other hand, a beginning has been made, and Islam, in little more than a decade, has emerged as Europe's second largest religion."

See Also: INTERNATIONAL ISLAMIC CONFERENCE, ISLAM—EUROPE, ISLAMIC COUNCIL OF EUROPE, MUSLIMS—EUROPE

Posted by: susan_b at October 21, 2004 5:26 PM

Fascinating. Thanks susan_b.

Did you see my post on Jihadwatch about Ethiopia?

Here, just in case you missed it, since you are apparently academically inclined:

Did any of you ever wonder why Ethiopia survived as an independent kingdom while all around them Islam triumphed? Apparently, part of the reason, is that big Mo looked favorably on Ethiopia as the King (the Negus)during Mo's time treated a number of Muslim refugees with kindness, eventually converting to Islam himself. Anyways, big Mo was so happy with the Ethiopians that he apparently said this hadith:

"utruk al-habasha ma tarkukum"
Leave the Abyssinians [Ethiopians] alone, so long as they do not take the offensive!

Amazing, eh? I always wondered why Ethiopia didn't get the chop.

Linky:

http://www.uni-mainz.de/Organisationen/ETHIOPIA/cross-and-crescent/axum.html

Posted by: Admiral Don Juan at October 21, 2004 7:00 PM

Some 83 early Muslims -- Companions and their families, I presume -- found refuge in Ethiopia, which is why, in a limited way, Ethiopia was off the list for Muslim aggression. But only because Ethiopia was in that strange third class of country which, neither part of dar al-Islam nor dar al-harb, had nonetheless helped to protect Muslims.

In Western Christendom, the myth of the Christian kingdom ruled by the powerful Prester John who lived beyond the Muslim domains, and hence offered the vision and solace of a powerful Christian ally who might help in the war of defense against an unceasingly aggressive enemy (Muslim raiders continued to loot and destroy villages up and down the coasts of Christian Europe for a thousand years, and kidnapped Christians as far north as Iceland and Ireland), first placed Prester John in India. But later he found permanent residence, in the European imagination, in Ethiopia.

Now, of course, Egypt is looking on favorably as the Sudan does the dirty work of clearing its land -- not of trees, for there aren't any, but of non-Muslims in the south and of non-Arabs in Darfur -- so that the dar al-Islam may expand steadily downward. And next in view for Muslim aggression is Ethiopia, where the Muslim population has risen dramatically -- Muslim families regard their children, quite openly, as soldiers for Jihad (they need not necessarily become little shahids, or "suicide" martyrs, but just being Muslim helps to swell Muslim power).

And in a few years, as Ethiopia, periodically subject to famine, takes a few steps to feed itself by diverting some of the headwaters of the Nile, Egypt will be in a much better position, with the cleansing of the Sudan, to push its way southward, and with a fifth column of Muslims already within Ethiopia, to threaten the Christian government and the Christian Ethiopians who will require support from the outside -- in a kind of reverse of the myth of Prester John.

If the American government would focus now, and not in five years, on the Egyptian-Sudanese threat to Ethiopia, it could turn things around now. A small American military force could quickly rout the Janjaweed, seize both Darfur and the southern Sudan, and remain there until a referendum might be held so that the inhabitants could decide if they wished to remain part of the Sudan -- a completely artifical country spatchcocked together by the British, which yokes Nuer and Dinka tribesmen to the Arabs of the north (It is pleasing to note in passing that Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, who writes so unblinkingly about Islam, is a descendant of the famous English anthropologist Evans-Pritchard who wrote "The Nuer") -- or, as I am sure they would choose, to become an independent country. And who could deprive them of that right, after the 2 million killed or deliberately starved to death in the south, or the 70,000 so far killed in Darfur, with more being killed or starved everyday, their livestock killed, their farms destroyed, their houses burned. Would the U.N. protest? Would the Arab League, with a straight face, demand that the blacks continue to accept their enslavement by the Arabs of the north -- and would black African states continue to play dhimmis, or would they at long last rebel, seeing as they do the Arabic script on the wall?

More attention should be paid to Egypt's silent support of the Sudan, despite the phony efforts at "peacemaking" which are designed only to relieve current Western pressure and divert attention so that the murders, and starvation as state policy, can continue, at a level low enough to continue under the radar (10,000 a month seems about right, for that was the figure in the southern Sudan that worked so well).

Particularly clever, and a past master of taqiyya, is Egypt's current ambassador in Washington, who lies nonstop, but in such a pleasing and fluent way (I caught him on NPR yesterday -- one lie after another about how scrupulously Egypt had fulfilled its solemn commitments under the Camp David Accords, and such a display of sweet reason, such thoughtfulness, in his perfect English -- why, I almost forgot for a moment what the Egyptian press and the corrupt regime, and the persecution of the Copts, and the refusal to fulfill one of its obligations to end all "hostile propaganda" against Israel, and the fact that Cairo is a world center for antisemitism and anti-American propaganda -- why, all this one can temporarily overlook in the stream of soothing nonsense and lies that the Egyptian ambassador offers, and who makes one appreciate with renewed force the old definition of an ambassador as someone "who is sent abroad to lie for his country." Really, he deserves a medal from the stratokleptocrats in Cairo. Or if not from Cairo, then from CAIR, for contributions to Islam, in protecting it from any charges about its treatment of the Copts, that is truly an inspiration to taqiyya masters everywhere. Truly, he should be conducting workshops on kitman/taqiyya. What a performance. And of course the smarmy and unctuous "Dick" Gordon was delighted to be his sidekick, carefully vetting and preventing any really seriously damaging callers from being allowed to have their say -- a "Dick" Gordon specialty, and especially when it comes to the MIddle East. One hopes that this creation of the now disgraced czarette, Jane Christo, will be discharged and a full and open competition created for this program (Gordon likes to call it, smarmily, a "conversation" when in fact it is a rather peculiar "conversation" that prevents many of the most articulate would-be participants from uttering a word, and in which the host effectively prevents, through his skewed running commnetary -- one especially appreciates his constant reference to his own foreign reporting as if we are to be impressed by this, and his aboslute and complete refusal even to hint at the tenets of Islam that help to explain much of the present situation -- referring to the "racism" of those who question the wonderfulness of Islam). But this is digression.

Keep Ethiopia, and Egyptian aggression, in mind.

Posted by: Hugh at October 21, 2004 10:03 PM

In the interests of googlers who may wish to find out more about the Egyptian Ambassador in question, his name is Nabil Fahmy. His little exercise -- and quite a msterful performance it was -- in taqiyya can be caught at www.wbur.org, under the program "The Connection" for 10.10.04.

It would be fascinating to see how Fahmy would respond to someone capable of raising the full list of Egypt's violations of solemn commitments under the Camp David Treaty. It would also be instructive to see how he would respond to a number of recent articles, chaste reprints of material found in Arabic, offered without any commentary, at the indispensable website www.memri.org. There one should consult S.D. #801, 802, and 803 for recent material about Egypt. There is a bloodcurdling threat made by the head of the Egyptian Labor (Islamist) Party. But more important is the article by Ihsan al-Tarabulsi, about Egypt's central role in the current spread of Jihad at its most fanatical, and most violent, all over the Muslim world.

So do read those three dispatches, or at least the remarks of Ihsan al-Tarabulsi, about Egypt.

Then one might wish to consult the website of the American Coptic Assocation -- simply google it, or the name of its head, Michael Meunier.

And in order to get a full list of Egypt's violations, so that the next time you happen to hear that the smooth-talking Ambassador Nabil Fahmy -- a kind of updated variant of those ramrod-straight Prussian Junkers whom, in the early to mid-30s, the Hitler regime would send abroad to assure the gullible in America and Britain that things were alright, that in Germany the "right sort of people" -- who had gone to Oxford or Harvard (like Fritzi Hanfstaengl, whom Harvard students had the good sense to boycott) were actually running things, and if only one gave Mr. Hitler just a little of what he wanted, well then....--one should google "Egypt" and "Rael Isaac" for an article on how Egypt has (according to Ambassador Fahmy) or has not (as all the evidence shows) lived up to its promises under the Camp David Accords, once it had pocketed, for the second time, the Sinai, with its oilfields discovered by the Israelis, its three airbases, its $16 billion (in 1978 dollars) in infrastructure, all handed over into the waiting hands of the Egyptians).

Oh, and if you get a chance to attend a speech somwhere given by Ambassador Fahmy, please remember to ask, during the question period, what he makes of the Treaty of al-Hudaibiyyah as the model for all Muslim treaty-making with Infidels -- and whether he thinks Egypt has been successful in its own clever adherence to the traditional Muslim model that Muhammad so nicely provided. It should make even Fahmy stop, for a second or two, before he ignores the question, goes on to something else, suggests that raising such issues is simply provocation and "not helpful" -- oh, there are a thousand ways for him to handle it, not least by appearing to be indignant that anyone should question Egypt's tireless and unceasing "commitment to peace."

You bet.

Posted by: Hugh at October 21, 2004 10:37 PM

Don,

Here is an article explaining what is going on in Ethopia currently.

There is about to be a big problem in that country again due to Saudi Arabia.

//www.ethiopiafirst.com/news2003/Sept/Saudi_Arabia_wahabism.html

Sorry, it's rather long, but worth the read.

Saudi Arabia's wahabism and the threat to Ethiopia's national security

By: By Alem - Zelalem

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have had deep historical roots in Ethiopia. If we take Islam, for instance, we could say that Ethiopians have been associated with it from the very beginning of Muslim history. The much needed protection that the Ethiopians provided to the early followers of the Prophet Muhammed, and their refusal to hand them over to their enemies, as well as the logistical support they made available to the Prophet, occupy a special place in the history of Islam. Moreover, Umm Ayman, the Prophet Muhammad's wet nurse, Bilal ibn Rabah, the first Muezzin who called Muslims to prayer, Caliph Omar al- Khattab's mother, as well as Amir ibn al-As, who conquered Egypt in 640 A.D., and Abu Bakra, who led the siege on Taif, and many others, were all Ethiopians.

It should be noted also that the great majority of Ethiopian Muslims are followers of Sunni Islam. Since there is religious tolerance in the country, Ethiopians have managed to escape destructive religious conflicts, which have become prevalent in many parts of the world. Lately, however, there has been a new development in the country, which, unless timely measures are taken to check it, could ultimately be a destabilizing factor in the region. This destabilizing factor, which, next to oil, has become the major export item of Saudi Arabia - is called Wahabism.

As the whole world knows, Saudi Arabia is a fundamentalist state. The type of Islam that it preaches and practices is not Sunni Islam that we have lived with for centuries in Ethiopia, and that has become an integral part of our culture and history, but Wahabism - a terrorist and violent form of Islam, that is responsible for the slaughter of thousands of innocent lives throughout the world. Despite this, hundreds of mosques have been built in Ethiopia in the last seven years with Saudi finance with all the paraphernalia of madrassas - supposedly Muslim religious seminaries where students seat cross-legged on the floor to memorize the Koran. But in actual fact, madrassas are brain washing sessions and jihad factories nurturing potential bin Ladens, where students are taught not to live under "infidels", and to hate Christians and Jews as a matter of religious duty. All the Saudi financed Mullahs- the directors of the madrassas are anti-American, anti-Christian and anti-Jewish. Why people should be taught to hate other people is beyond me. Nevertheless, planting the seeds of hatred in the minds of our youth goes contrary to our cultural values and principles. After the madrassas, innocent Ethiopian kids are taken to various countries in the Middle East for military training, and then return home to participate in the meticulously planned and widely coordinated jihad. So far, some 5,000 have already been trained. Incidentally, Shiite Iran is an active participant in this international brigandage. Since such activities have serious implications to the independence, peace and security of the country, we need to bring an end to it, before it takes deep roots.

The Saudis claim that Wahabism is a religion of peace and tolerance. But the truth is, what they say is a ridiculous fiction that is not borne by facts. The history of Wahabism has been a history of jihad, plunder, conquest, intolerance and violence. One has only to read the history of Wahabism and to investigate what its followers like Bin Laden are doing throughout the world. Their cruelty and barbarism, and their lies and hypocrisy, know no bounds. Historically, Wahabism is associated with the removal of head stones from the graves of the members of the family of the Prophet Muhammed, and the desecration of Sheite shrines in Najaz and Karbala in Iraq, and the struggle for power in what was yet to become Saudi Arabia. Once its followers took power, they did whatever they could to destroy Ethiopia. Every Ethiopian knows this. For example, the secessionist war in Eritrea (1958-1991), which was designed to make Ethiopia land-locked, was largely financed by Saudi Arabia. Likewise, Saudi finance made it possible for Somalia to invade Ethiopia in 1977- 1978. The Saudi authorities may deny this, but it is widely documented. White gloves will never hide blood stained hands. The western world is just waking up to the truth and reality of Wahabism. But Ethiopians have known it for too long. Nothing has changed, not even their irrationality. But then, one should not expect anything rational from 1,500 princes who multiply from within. Rational things can only be discussed with rational people. Despite what our country had done to save Islam from extinction, our fate became provocation, subversion, terrorism, out right aggression and economic blockade, as a way of expressing their "gratitude" to us. Let us note that these horrendous acts of barbarism have all been done against Ethiopia, in violation of the teachings and instructions of the Prophet Muhammad. Yet, they call themselves followers of the Prophet, and "custodians of the Holy Places of Islam."

They wanted to covert us to Wahabism against our will, and we fiercely resisted them, for which they have never excused us. The Wahabists know that they will never defeat Ethiopia militarily. Since they recognize that their aggression will be fiercely resisted by the people of Ethiopia, they have now changed their tactics and want to conquer us through deceit, or so they hope, without even firing a single bullet.

Mentioning the 1974 mass rally in Addis Ababa might help the Saudis to understand how Ethiopian Muslims and Christians relate with one another. In 1974, thousands of Ethiopian Christians joined their Muslim brothers and sisters in a demonstration in Addis Ababa, demanding equality between the two religions - something which cannot even be conceived in Saudi Arabia, or anywhere in the Arab world. One cannot, for example, imagine Egyptian Muslims demonstrating in the streets of Cairo supporting the rights of the Copts of Egypt, and still less, demanding for equality between Christians and Muslims in that country.

For Wahabists, a secular state like Ethiopia that strives to create the conditions where Christians and Muslims live in peace and equality is not acceptable. Why? Because Wahabism is a religion of power. Its adherents believe that they have a command from Allah to rule the entire world and to lord every nation on earth, and to force the rest of mankind to submit to them. To that end, they use the Jihad to overthrow the system of any non-Muslim country in order to establish Wahabi authority. Hence, the individual has no right to have a religion of his choice. Because of such a mind set, wherever they are, Wahabists are at war against non-Wahabists. Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, India, Yugoslavia, Russia, the USA, France, Germany, Britain, Italy, Indonesia, the Philippines, Israel, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan, Egypt, Cyprus, Nubia, Sudan, Somalia, and Nigeria are only a few examples. Now they want to add Ethiopia to their list.

Wahabists do not allow Christians to build churches in Saudi Arabia. Why? Because to borrow their own language, the "infidels" will be "polluting" the "Holy soil" of Islam. Why then should they be allowed to build their mosques in the Christian world? King Faisal once requested the permission of Emperor Haile Selassie to let Saudi Arabia build mosques in Ethiopia. The emperor's reply was, "yes, why not. But in return, Ethiopia should be permitted to build churches in Mecca, Medina and Nadjiran - places with which Ethiopians have historic ties." There and then, Faisal dropped the subject and the matter was never raised again. Had they raised the same question to President Mengistu Haile Mariam, no doubt, his reply would have been equally appropriate. Today, however, it is a different story. Ethiopia is ruled by a sinister, treacherous and cynical clique that has no obligation to the maintenance of the unity and territorial integrity of the country, and stills less, to the defence and security of the Ethiopian state.

Saudi Arabia wants a free ride. It takes advantage of opportunities offered by liberal democratic societies to spread its poisonous Wahabism in the USA, Europe, Africa, and elsewhere by building mosques. Yet, American, European, and African missionaries will not be permitted to build churches in Saudi Arabia. As far as Riyadh is concerned, life is a one-way street. There is no reciprocity, and no competition in ideas, and there will be none. One would have hoped that religion was a struggle to win the hearts and minds of individuals, but not for Saudi Arabia. Its religion is an instrument for subversion, penetration, terrorism, domination and colonization. For example, by taking advantage of the unfortunate economic conditions of the downtrodden Ethiopian masses, the Saudi Embassy in Addis Ababa is busy bribing people to convert to Islam. The usual amount that they pay is 5,000 birr, which is some $600.00 A friend of mine who attends school in San Francisco went home for vacation to Ethiopia and returned to California a couple of weeks ago. Among other things, here is what he told me:

"I drove from Addis Ababa to Asebe Teferie, a distance of 350 kms (217miles). Where there were only two or three mosques in the past, now, I could see more than one hundred mosques. Then, I returned back and drove from Addis Ababa to Shashimene, a distance of some 250 kms (155 miles), again to see another 130 brand new mosques. At the end of each trip, I made it a point to ask, " Who built the mosques?" Invariably, the answer was the same - Saudi Arabia. Then he asked me, "what do this people want? What is their secret agenda?" I said to him, "the agenda is no longer secret. Saudi Arabia's Wahabism is exploiting the poverty of our people and spreading its ugly tentacles to take over Ethiopia."

However, the question is: who opened the doors of Ethiopia to Wahabism? Who authorized Saudi Arabia to do what it is doing today in Addis Ababa, and in the provinces of Shoa, Wollo, Gondar, Arusi, Wollega, Jimma, Harar, Sidamo, and indeed in the entire south? How much bribe did the Saudis have to pay to the corrupt and criminal authorities, who were brought to power with Saudi finance? What is even more surprising is that they wanted to build a mosque in Axum - a city where hardly any Muslims live. By opening Ethiopia's doors to Wahabists, the ruling clique in Ethiopia has been collaborating with international terrorists.

Saudi Arabia is governed by an absolute monarchy. It has no constitution. No political parties and trade unions are permitted to function. Public floggings and amputations are common. The subjugation of women in that country is so mind-boggling, that they are not even permitted to drive cars. More than 2, 000 years ago, a Greek scholar named Eratosthenes, who served as a librarian in Alexandria, had calculated the circumference of the earth as being 24, 675 miles. He was almost accurate. He missed the actual figure by only 185 miles. Yet, today, in Wahabi Saudi Arabia, the grand mufti, Sheik Abdel Aziz Bin Baz, the chief jurist who has the authority to issue legal edicts called "fatwa", could declare in 1990, that "the earth was not round, but flat."

In contrast, Ethiopia is a country where a popular socialist revolution took place, which Saudi Arabia did everything in its power to subvert, abort and destabilize by paying millions of dollars (1974-1991), and where a series of political, cultural, and social revolutions continue to be carried out. There are hundreds of thousands of Ethiopian liberals, democrats, republicans, socialists, constitutional monarchists, social democrats and Marxists, organized in some twenty political parties competing for power. If the Saudi authorities have been wrongly informed by their agents about the reality in Ethiopia, then they should check their facts. Unlike the unfortunate Saudi women, Ethiopian women have always been equal to men. In the past, they served their country as heads of state and government, and even led armies in battle. Today, Ethiopian women serve as air force fighter and bomber pilots, tank commanders, parliamentarians, ambassadors, university professors, medical doctors, engineers, lawyers, journalists, and so on. They compete in world Olympics and win gold or silver medals. We have every intention to intensify the democratization process in our country. Our present economic difficulties, which would surely pass, cannot be exploited by Wahabists to distort and to pervert our cultural values. Saudi Arabia will be strongly advised to keep its hands off Ethiopia. We did not struggle against every conceivable colonialist and imperialist power in the past, and to come thus far, only to succumb to Saudi Arabian Wahabism. That would be an insult to our history and culture. The system that prevails in Saudi Arabia may be good for Saudi Arabia, but not for Ethiopia. We find it offensive to human freedom and dignity. It is absolutely unacceptable to our way of life. Wahabism has no place in our society. The sooner the ruling circles in Saudi Arabia realize this fact and leave us alone, the better.

The Wahabi threat to Ethiopia should be a matter of serious concern to the international community. Wahabism should not be permitted to play with fire. If the present trend is allowed to continue, it will have serious consequences for international peace and security. It will lead into an endless civil war in the country between Wahabists and Christians, and between Sunnis and Wahabists, and engulf the whole of Africa in turmoil. All this calls for a systematic and thorough investigation. We need to petition European parliamentarians and individual United States Senators and members of the House of Representatives, so that Saudi Arabia's violation of Ethiopia's security, sovereignty, and national independence, is raised at the United Nations, the United States Congress, as well as in the European Parliament. In this respect, I suggest that we write to the Secretary General of the United Nations, the United States Congress, and to the European Parliament, requesting that fact-finding missions be dispatched to Ethiopia as soon as possible.

Posted by: susan_b at October 21, 2004 10:41 PM

Four heads?

Isn't that just slight repercussion for the millions that were already sliced?

I wonder if Islam has a conscious -- HOLD ON! -- I meant a self-conscious dilemma going on here?

Of course!

The choice is how to separate reality from fiction.

Their reality is already known to them, but the fiction is they sell to us.

Apathy drives ignorance.

These folks are busy as bees while the lot of us relax...watch tv, listen to music, raise our children and plan on nothing happpening.

Posted by: Moe's Foe at October 21, 2004 10:59 PM

This attempt by Muslims to censor what is depicted on an ancient flag is part of a larger effort to efface any memory of the 1400-year-war made on Christendom by Islam, and to replace it with another narrative, in which Islam made vital, enormous, huge, indispensable, contributions to European civilization. Why to hear some tell of it, the Renaissance was practically a Muslim invention. And while the real historians suffer in silence, a host of hacks have come along to ensure that the foundation is laid in order to support the edifice of Eurabia that is being so carefully built, on historical fictions and historical amnesia.

A native of Sardinia has noted that the Sardinian flag also has four Saracen heads. While the international rich frolicking at Cala di Volpe (no doubt some Arabs among them) care only about where their next ten million is coming from, the natives of Sardinia, eating their spaghetti alla bottarga, a little birdie in Cagliari assures me, would forcefully resist any attempts to censor the Sardinian flag, and have become keenly aware of, and alarmed by, Muslim immigrants who, as on the mainland, act in a manner toward the native non-Muslims that is "prepotente" (arrogant, domineering, tyrannical), acting as if they own the country, and from the Muslim point of view, all the world belongs to Islam, and to Believers. This goes far beyond what now seem to be the minor annoyances of the African streetsellers, the tribe of vu-cumpra.

Fortunately, Italy is not Spain; Sardinia is not Aragon. And Berlusconi, for all his many faults, is not Zapatero.

Posted by: Hugh at October 21, 2004 11:03 PM

Isn't the patron saint of Spain called San Diego Matamoros (Moor-slayer), and the city of Matamoros on the northern border of Mexico is named for him?

Posted by: Kepha1 at October 22, 2004 2:05 AM

Why do they a fixation with removing heads?

Posted by: Joe Bananas...in Pyjamas at October 22, 2004 2:24 AM

Saorirse wrote:

"I'm from Ireland, we have the colour green on ours, as this is supposed to be the colour of islam (and no-one elses I suppose) will they be demanding us filthy infidels stop using their sacred colour? I kinda wish they would, I'd love to see the reaction from certain quarters! "

Saorirse, I wonder if you've ever read a very Kiplingesque short story by Arthur Conan Doyle called 'The Green Flag' ?

In the story a British regiment in the Sudan comes under fierce attack from 10,000 moslem fanatics. Company C of 'the Mallows' is made up of Fenians (Irish Republicans) and, even though the British square is crumbling about them, the Irish refuse to fight for 'the Queen'.

But when they see the cruelty of the enemy, and their fellow-soldiers slaughtered around them, the Irish have a change of heart. One of them raises a small green Irish flag on his bayonet, and they bravely meet the Arab charge as Irishmen.

The Irish soldiers are wiped out, but their heroic stand saves many lives.

The Sheik who led the attack sends the captured green flag to his leader, the Mahdi, with these words: "By its colour it might well seem to have belonged to those of the true faith, but the Kaffirs gave their blood freely to save it, and so we think that, though small, it is very dear to them."

The implication of the story seems to be - the Irish and English, Catholics and Protestants, may have their differences, but those differences are as nothing when faced with a greater enemy such as the onslaught of muslim fanaticism.

The message - as always - united we can defeat this enemy, divided we fall.

A message I believe even more essential today than when this story was written, a century ago.

Posted by: Benelux at October 22, 2004 12:19 PM

Benelux - Nice one, I couldn't agree with you more on this.

I have a few stories from back home that are of interest - an attempt to open some kind of islamic social or study centre up north was met with fury from the local residents and a couple of petrol bombs, - the residents reportedly said something to the effect that there was enough trouble with religion already and they didn't need any more brought in by outsiders!

Also, again in the north, some poor impoverished alabanian asylum seekers (sob, sob) decided they'd try their hand at a little drug-dealing to supplement their state welfare handouts, and were promptly told by paramilitaries from both protestant and catholic communities to not only stop it immediately, but to GTF out of the country or......., well, you can guess how they deal with such things in that part of the world.

BTW, I must be one of the few Irishmen in England who always celebrates St. Georges Day, I've always supported England establishing a sound national identity for itself.

Posted by: saoirse at October 22, 2004 1:07 PM

Saoirse -

Glad to hear the Irish aren't giving any ground to the jihadis! (A head-first ducking in a barrel of Guinness would no doubt do them a power of good.)

Seems to me Ireland has got two good things going for it resistance-wise - a) it's an island, which always helps, and b) its people. If the jihadis think they can make dhimmis out of the Irish - North or South - they're in for a rude surprise!

BTW apologies for mis-spelling your name last time. I really must start using these wretched reading glasses!

Posted by: Benelux at October 22, 2004 3:33 PM

Benelux - HA HA HA, I'd consider the head-ducking all right, but only with Guinness if it was to baptise them and convert them to a useful religion, Buddhism, Hinduism and others included, otherwise Guinness is too precious a commodity, common old bog-water would do.

Jihadis would be well advised, not that they'd take my word for it, to avoid the north of ireland altogether, there are many many people up there who you simply don't mess with, and all the PC-Guardian readers in the world won't be able to put you back together if you do.

I should imagine there are other parts of europe with a similar approach, the Basque country, Sicily, Poland, Slovakia, places where the dumb pc crowd are thin on the ground. These kind of places could be the jihadis undoing, should their growing confidence overreach itself.

Posted by: saoirse at October 22, 2004 5:04 PM

Saoirse -

I guess that's what they mean about some peoples being rough and ready...

rough and READY!

Posted by: Benelux at October 22, 2004 7:10 PM