Incredibly

First interview on Dutch television spends half of the time of an interview with an eye witness establishing that the killer "may have been disguised" as an arab.

Luckily they caught him so this self-delusion will not last long. At least not in this case.

Posted by: Frank at November 2, 2004 6:26 AM

Christian martyr: someone who dies rather than renounce their Christian faith;

Muslim martyr: someone who dies when killing others who he or she feels is attacking their faith;

Theo van Gogh: where does he fit in?

Posted by: Mentat at November 2, 2004 6:39 AM

PLEASE PROTECT AYAAN HIRSI ALI NOW!!!!!!

Posted by: Voltaire at November 2, 2004 6:43 AM

I looked in the internet to find out everything that I could about the murderer of Pim Fortuyn. He WAS an animal rights activist, but he also said that he felt that he was protecting muslims from discrimination by Pim Fortuyn. He said that he still didn't know whether he had done the right thing or not.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 2, 2004 6:49 AM

The assasination happened around the corner from where I live in Amsterdam Oost. I arrived on the scene five minutes after they killed Theo, as I was on my way to buy some bread with my two year old. I saw his body, with the knives still in it, covered with white linnen. Like this:

http://www.geenstijl.nl/paginas/theolaken.jpg

I informed Jihadwatch within the hour.

I knew Theo very well. He was the nicest guy. I worked with him at a radiostation, ten years ago. He lived around the corner, and never wanted to be surrounded by body guards, like Hirsi Ali and Wilders.
The police took his son out of the class room this morning to tell his father is dead. God bless Lieuwe.

Politicians now talk about societal problems, and that society is getting more violent. Off course, they don't talk about a war that is going on for 1400 years.

The guy who did it was wearing a djallaba, and has a long beard. After he shot Theo seven times, Theo was stabbed. On the knive a letter, or holy scriptures.

Every year 30.000 muslim immigrants arrive in my country.

God bless professor Fortuyn.

God bless Theo van Gogh.

Posted by: martin from amsterdam at November 2, 2004 6:55 AM

The future masters and overlords are just making sure that the Dutch know what to expect, if and when they dare criticise Islam.

Posted by: Joe Bananas...in Pyjamas at November 2, 2004 7:00 AM

THEY TRIED TO SEVER HIS HEAD IN BROAD DAYLIGHT !!!

The jihadist tried to cut of Theo's head! Amsterdam Daily Het Parool is reporting now. Then he pulled a smaller knive.
Again: a text was attached to the knive.

This happened after Theo was shot several times, maybe with an automatic gun. The gunner started shooting when Theo was still on the other side of the street.
This all happened at nine o'clock in the morning.
People were passing by on their way to work on their bike. Or dropping off their kids.
I was on my way to buy bread with my 2 year old.
I am still shaking.

De schutter trok volgens ooggetuigen daarna een groot mes en sneed Van Gogh de keel door. Vervolgens stak hij een kleiner mes in zijn borst. Aan dat mes zat volgens meerdere ooggetuigen een briefje.

http://www.parool.nl/nieuws/2004/NOV/02/p1.html

Posted by: martin from amsterdam at November 2, 2004 7:05 AM

martin -

sorry to hear about the sad loss of your friend.

Artists in Europe haven't had to worry about being murdered for their art since the Middle Ages. Now the Middle Ages have re-entered our lives thanks to the Stealth Invasion.

I read that as well as making SUBMISSION, Van Gogh was an actor in a film called TERRORAMA! in which he played a religious maniac reading from the Koran (a scene played for satire.) That sounds the kind of thing that can get you shot 10 times and stabbed.

Van Gogh was regarded as a controversial radical filmmaker (almost a kind of Dutch Michael Moore.) This wasn't someone who could be dismissed as right-wing or a racist, and his murder should be a wake-up call for the sleeping-on-the-job European 'intelligentia.' I hope so - and I hope the Dutch take to the streets in protest!

Posted by: Benelux at November 2, 2004 7:05 AM

I just hope to god that this wakes the Dutch up to the threat that they face.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 2, 2004 7:05 AM

NO ISLAM - KNOW PEACE

Posted by: ala-sux at November 2, 2004 7:07 AM

This is chilling, absolutely sickening. There are so many precedents for assassinations in islamic history. When will the world start joining up the dots? The murderer will be described by the media as mentally deranged, not as an islamic jihadist. Of course, he is mentally deranged, but it is islam that has made him so: he is defending the ummah, enjoining good and forbidding evil in islamic eyes. His actions are islamically perfectly justifiable. He will enjoy the full support of his muslim brothers. But of course there will be plenty of taquiya about this.

May Theo van Gogh rest in peace.

Posted by: Setanta at November 2, 2004 7:07 AM

I want to see this film and I hope that all dutches will buy it,
Rest in peace Theo, I didn´t know you, but you were a brave, in a hypocritical world people like you, makes trusting that this islamic and cynical dictatorship end, you are a martyr, I will pray for you, greetings

Posted by: Franze at November 2, 2004 7:17 AM

I want to see this film too. Where can I buy it? And please have english subtitles.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 2, 2004 7:42 AM

This is absolutely shocking. Shocking for the sadness I feel at his death, but not surprising because anyone who understands Islam knew something like this would happen soon. I believe that this is a momentous moment. As someone said, the Islamic tradition of slaughtering blasphemers has come into full effect on the streets of Europe and Theo Van Gogh, a descendant of Vincent, has been killed by a strain of fascism that is threatening everything we hold dear, the fruits of our liberal democratic civilisation. Theo Van Gogh is a MARTYR for freedom and a martyr for all those who oppose the fascism of Islamist doctrine.

To those of the left who have made a devils pact with fascism, I beseech you to see what the true colours of the Islamist doctrine is. Look at the pictures of the corpse of Theo Van Gogh. You will see in it our collective future if you persist in molly coddling this pernicious doctrine of Islamo Fascism.

May his soul Rest In Peace. May his death awaken those sleeping in our civilisation.

Posted by: Kaffir Boy at November 2, 2004 7:43 AM

Martin from Amsterdam

My sincerest condolonces to you on the loss of your friend. I grieve with you. Theo is a martyr for freedom. He will not be forgotten. May you have strength.

Posted by: Kaffir Boy at November 2, 2004 7:45 AM

Theo, you had real courage. Your murderer had none. Your name will never be forgotten. Rest in Peace.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 2, 2004 7:46 AM

In Canada several years ago a Muslim male was upset with females getting educated to be engineers and scientists,he went to the school during class time and murdered about 17 of them and then shot himself.
His suicide note blamed females for all his problems in life and were taking jobs away from men,the media labelled him a loner and misogenist
and womens groups used the masacre to get more funding for the "violence against women" campaign.
Every December 6th the men-haters parade to the memorial and aren't aware the issue was Islams anti-woman doctrine. All men have been blamed for the actions of another Islamist psychopath and the Courts ruled that the Police must arrest or remove any male spouse that is accused of harming the female spouse.
This kind of murder directed at female students has never happened before and nobody cares about his conversion to Islam prior to the slaughter.

I no longer believe the Muslim rant about peace and tolerance,they're either outright stupid or
brainwashed to accept this tripe from a misogenistic pedophile named Muhammed.

No doubt Muslims will ask what the root causes were to force a Muslim to murder Van Gogh,yes folks,what did he do to bring this upon himself.

Posted by: ala-sux at November 2, 2004 7:51 AM

Martin, Hoi,

I lived in Amsterdam for three years, and was there when Pim Fortuyn. People didn't want to believe me when I warmed them the jihad was coming to a neighbourhood near them. After the shock of 9/11 and then Pim's murder they started to consider things were changing, but because 9/11 was so far away and Pim's murderer was one of their own, although they could feel it in their bones the minds were sceptical. Now they will understand! But many will still be in denial, and will grasp at any straw to maintain what they consider Dutch liberalism to be. But what good is liberalism when those who are trying to Islamise the Nederlander Staat use that very liberalism as weapon against them?

Unless the Dutch start to act now, the Muslims will achieve what the Nazis failed to achieve - the destruction of Dutch culture and the defiling of beautiful Amsterdam. Do the Dutch really want to see the Oude Kerk and the Neiuwe Kerk turned into mosques, and beheadings, stonings and mutilations performed on the Dam?

Met vriendelijk groeten

Posted by: Tziona at November 2, 2004 8:01 AM

Tziona

{{But what good is liberalism when those who are trying to Islamise the Nederlander Staat use that very liberalism as weapon against them?}}

You get to the heart of the matter here so well. It is not just the Netherlands that faces this dichotomy. It is every country in the West. How do you reconcile a civilisation based on tolerance, the freedom of the individual and equality of the sexes, democracy and free speech, with a belief system that spits in the face of all of those things, holds you and your civilisation in contempt, and seeks to usurp and supplant your civilisation by various means, to make you "submit" to the religion of the "submitters", or at least to cringe in fear and curtail those aspects of your civilisation that "he" is offended by. (Which is practically everything. The mere sight of a woman not treated as a chattel is like an enraging blasphemy to them. But hey, its OK, because the left must fight for the right of Muslim women to wear burqa's and hijab's)

What I find truly audacious is how they have adapted the language of the left to further their cause. They dont really believe in human rights, pluralism and tolerance, but advance their doctrine under its name.

Either way, I have visited Amsterdam three times, and the thought that the great Dutch liberal civilisation and tolerance is being stomped on by a thuggish and fascistic cult brings tears to my eyes.

Posted by: Kaffir Boy at November 2, 2004 8:13 AM

We are all called Theo Van Gogh! I can only hope and pray that MILLIONS of Dutch and Europeans demonstrate against this and demand that their "wimp" governments take serious action.

Red Ken be damnned!

Posted by: John Palubiski at November 2, 2004 8:26 AM

One more thing: notice how the 'Beeb' consistantly refers to Pim Fortuyn as merely "anti-immigrant".....over and over again. No mention of his passion for democracy and free speech, no references to his arguments, ideas or ideals
In other words, any aspects or elements of Pim's platform that could PERHAPS engage the critical thinking faculties of Beeb journalists are studiously ignored.

It's so much easier that way, you see.

Posted by: John Palubiski at November 2, 2004 8:33 AM

Tziona, Kaffir Boy: I couldn't agree with you more.

Here is a poster, that was published by an muslim website. It reads: "When is it Theo's turn?" The symbol indicates they are not talking about a dinner party.

http://www.fortuynpolitiek.nl/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8336&whichpage=7

The text on top of the page (Insha Allah ruimt Allah deze letterlijke en figuurlijke zwijn snel op! Salaam o aliekoem) is translated into: Allah willing will Allah kill this pig. Salaam O Aliekoem.

Also on this page: Theo's last newspaper column in which he attacked mayor Job Cohen for supporting Abou Jahjah, the former Hezbullah turned into AEL leader.

At this very moment: Theo's body is taken away. It's around the corner, so I'm gonna check it out.

PLEASE PRAY FOR THEO VAN GOGH TODAY

(And, America, please, win one for the Gipper, DUTCH Reagan. Theo was a friend of America, always telling how he saw this country as a beacon of hope. "If I were younger I would have moved to the US", he said often. America, do it for Theo: Vote conservative!)

Posted by: martin from amsterdam at November 2, 2004 8:39 AM

OK, the war has been brought to the heart of the infidells. This assassination was obviously planned to coincide with the US presidential elections.

Is it a subtle warning to the Netherlands to remove troops as well as silence debate over Islam and was the timing designed to get lost in the election coverage?

Actually, it doesn't matter because with a liberal tradition and 1 million Muslim colonists camping there, this barbaric action will do nothing to stem the Islamification of Europe.

We must not be weak, these outrages will occur with greater regularity in the West until one side or the other has had enough.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 8:41 AM

Horrible news, we're all bloody shocked. Submission can be downloaded from here:

http://www.pipp.nl/downloadpro/download.php?file=0

I couldn't get it to work correctly, just the sound. Maybe you need a special codec for it.

Posted by: Leveller at November 2, 2004 8:57 AM

Martin:

Sorry to hear of the cold blooded and apparently viscious murder of your friend Theo.

Thirty thousand muslims immigrating to the Netherlands is thirty thousand to many for a small country of only 15 million.

Don`t the Dutch people grasp the clear fact that they bring not just a religion but a totalitarian movement with their own Sharia laws that they want to impose where ever they go from Canada to Western Mindenao.

I have relatives that I visit in Hilversum that is around 30 Kms. south of Amsterdam.
Even today some of them who where deeply traumitized by the invasion of the Nazis`s, still hide food under the floors of their homes as a kind of security blanket.

At least 2 of my Dutch relatives still have the concentration camp numbers on their arms, and they never forget.

The EU`S first terrorist czar is from the Netherlands, doesnt` anyone no what if any positions or actions he is asking for to reduce this ever so subtle invasion of this once again totalitarian movement that spreads like a cancer without detection before its to late as it is in France already?

Posted by: Mackie at November 2, 2004 8:59 AM

Martin from Amsterdam

I wish you strength at this traumatic time. That poster is sickening. How can the left ally itself with this fascism? I am praying for the soul of this great man Theo Van Gogh. Please work hard using all your powers of agitation and lobbying to ensure that Aymaan Hirsa Ali is PROTECTED and SAFE in your country.
This film must be uploaded to websites and disseminated across the web. We must not be silent in the face of fascism.

Take care Martin.

Theo Van Gogh has become a martyr for freedom.

Posted by: Kaffir Boy at November 2, 2004 9:04 AM

Martin, Tziona,

What do you think are the chances of this outrage leading to a resurgence of the kind of movement that saw hope in Pim Fortuyn ?

Is there anyone who could replace Pim as leader of a pro-Dutch, anti-Jihad movement?

(I wonder if the islamists saw Theo as a potential leader of such a movement - with his writing and magazine columns - and that might be one reason why they killed him?)

Posted by: Benelux at November 2, 2004 9:19 AM

I have written this news in all forums in Spain, the people must know it, and people have to be a reaction already, these people are like nazis and communists,are dangerous, and they´re killing people for dare to criticize him, this is very stalinist, aganist islam, against the party, and a superiority of religion, a race in nazis, we have to wake up, and Martin, my condolences and if is bought the film, tell us, greetings

Posted by: Franze at November 2, 2004 9:19 AM

This cowardly murder is yet another reminder of the threat to anyone who dares criticise the Religion of Assassins (the very word derives from an islamic cult.)

I hope Robert Spencer and Hugh will in future take every precaution to ensure their personal safety.

A BBC report said that Theo had been under police protection after making 'Submission'. It sounds like protection had been withdrawn, possibly at his request.

Martin, who is the 'Wilders' you refer to?

Posted by: Benelux at November 2, 2004 9:27 AM

A free copy of part 1 from the movie Submission can be downloaded here (45mb):

http://www.pipp.nl/content/submissionpart1.avi

Posted by: Boudewijn at November 2, 2004 9:37 AM

Unfortunately, I think it is going to take an event on the scale of 9/11 in Europe to wake the Euros up. Even then, the reaction might be surrender rather than galvanizing.

Posted by: idontslam at November 2, 2004 9:56 AM

There's a better, less PC, article on the ABC News Website. According to this one the killer is a Moroccan with a Dutch passport: http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=218066

Posted by: disillusionised_german at November 2, 2004 10:01 AM

My fellow Americans,

Today, of all days, vote to protect our borders. The Dutch and other European nations are paying a high price for letting down their guard against the moslem invasion.

Only one candidate for president favors enforcement of US immigration policy. Please, before it is too late: vote Michael Anthony Peroutka. www.peroutka2004.com

Do it for Theo van Gogh and our children.

My sincere condolences to the Dutch. My part of the United States (NE Wisconsin) was settled by Dutch immigrants and if you were to read the names in our telephone book, you would think you were in Holland!

God save our nations.

Posted by: peggy at November 2, 2004 10:04 AM

My condolences Martin,

Life is so unfair when these subhuman maggots can destroy the life of someone who had so much to offer to the world.

We can only pray that his martrydom gives his films the well-deserved publicity refused by the cowardly mainstream media.

Posted by: Rublev at November 2, 2004 10:19 AM

Benelux

The "Wilders" mentioned above is a Dutch politician who belonged to the VVD party until very recently. He abandoned this party on account of his position regarding the accession of Turkey to the EU. Wilders could not agree with the VVD in accepting the Turkish accession. He has just formed a new party and either has moved from his home in Utrecht or is about to move because he feels uncreasingly unsafe there.

I personally am deeply concerned for his safety and that of Hirsi Ali, another Dutch politician know for her outspoken position regarding the growing influence of Islam in the Dutch society.

Posted by: Maria_Jose at November 2, 2004 10:28 AM

The killer is a man of Morocco with dutch nationality, is probably a muslim, another terrorist, another killer,
Rest in peace Theo

Posted by: Franze at November 2, 2004 10:41 AM

Interesting that AP (see the above mentioned ABC News Link) calls Ayaan Hirsi Ali "a right-wing politician who years ago renounced the Islamic faith of her birth and now refers to herself as an "ex-Muslim."

How does that automatically make her "right-wing", I wonder? Maybe it's down to the fact that she's not a member of a socialist / communist party?

Posted by: disillusionised_german at November 2, 2004 10:41 AM

Thank you, Maria_Jose, for that information!

Perhaps Mr Wilders will be able to pick up where Pim Fortuyn left off? If he was able to team up with Hirsi Ali, I imagine that would be a very strong, attractive combination for voters.

Safety and success to them both.

Posted by: Benelux at November 2, 2004 10:44 AM

Wilders also had "the nerve" to state the Christian/Western Civilization is better than Islamic "Civilization". Bad Dhimmi!

Posted by: Suzan at November 2, 2004 10:45 AM

"Right-wing" is how the fascist left smears anybody who doesn't agree with them. Hirsi Ali is a classical liberal who admires John Stuart Mill.

Posted by: Suzan at November 2, 2004 10:46 AM

It is amazing that some right-wingers use EVERY SINGLE terrorist attack or proclamation as a way to further their political agenda.

Nonetheless, I pity the good Mr. Van Gogh and his survivors. I hope that 10 more will step into his shoes and take up his cause: Jihadi Awareness.

And I hope, hope, really hope that Ms. Ali is being careful. It really is amazing that this is transpiring in the most liberal nation in the world! (I know a lot of you hate that, but f.o.)

Holland sheltered the "witches" burned to death by Christian conservatives...and the Jews slaughtered by the Nazi conservatives... those are well-known facts. But a lot of us (including the so-called "super patriots") don't know that Holland also gave refuge to the Pilgrims before they sent sail for America.

Sooner or later I hope that the good liberal people of Holland will WAKE UP and see that the enemy in their midst is growing stronger and bolder every day. Muslims are all for tolerance and respect and dissent, but only when they are "down." As their power /numbers grow, those liberal qualities are "forgotten about."

People of Holland, how much more proof do you need? Just see what is ONGOING in Thailand, the Philippines, Nigeria, Sudan, and elsewhere. This isn't about Israel, nor is it about western colonizations; this is about Muslim Supremacy.

Do any of you have any doubt in your mind that the killer would have shown any mercy had Mr. Van Gogh been a woman or a child, or in the company of his wife or child?

Goddam, this is occuring in HOLLAND! Imagine what it would be like in Lebanon, Iran, or Pakistan.

My fellow liberals, I beg you: WAKE UP TO THIS DANGEROUS THUGGISH CREED.

"The American Mike Moore"... how true. Hopefully one of Moore's anti-fans won't do something similar.

Posted by: kj at November 2, 2004 11:37 AM

It is truly sad that civilization has to be on guard against savages in it's midst. Just thought and expression of ideas can get you murdered. It is time for the big media to tell the TRUTH. It is time for our governments to take REAL action. The idea of a cancer being allowed to grow in the body until the patient is dead is uacceptable!

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 2, 2004 11:38 AM

UNACCEPTABLE! (sp)

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 2, 2004 11:40 AM

Anyone who wishes to can leave a message of condolence at Theo Van Gogh's own website:

http://www.theovangogh.nl/

The site is in Dutch. To access the email facility, click on the purple message.

Posted by: Benelux at November 2, 2004 12:34 PM

Time Europe has a small article out.

This quote is odd methinks:

"Ayham Tonca chairman of the Dutch Muslim umbrella organization says: "It's unbelievable and unacceptable that something like this can happen in Holland again." He says Dutch society as a whole must bear the responsibility for the increasing polarization that has taken place in Holland since 9/11. "This was a tolerant, multicultural country but things have changed. It's become 'us and them' and extremists from both sides throw accusations at each other. But only a sick individual can do this sort of thing [commit murder]."

This is an deflection away from the obvious point. Dutch society as a whole does not bear responsibility for Van Goghs murder. Conversely, neither do all Dutch Muslims. A sick individual may have done this, but why? It certainly isn't because of 'polarization'.

Posted by: Rupert at November 2, 2004 1:41 PM

My condolences to Theo's family and friends - words cannot express my shock and sorrow.

All of us here owe it to Theo to carry on his work, and to speak out against these crimes against Humanity.

Posted by: Mike at November 2, 2004 1:47 PM

On the BBC Van Gogh's assassination finally appears on Front Page Online (it does not appear on the World Page). Here is the headline:

"Director mourned: Controversial career of Dutch filmmaker Theo Van Gogh"

A headline reader might think he had a heart attack from hard living.

My condolences to Martin and all who knew this courageous man.

Posted by: JTF at November 2, 2004 1:55 PM

Rupert-
I am APPALLED by Ayham Tonca's remarks. We all know why this person killed Theo, and polarization had nothing to do with it. This violence is the extreme manifestation of those who seek to silence the critics of the violence, misogyny and intolerance that exists within Islam and its votaries.

Posted by: Mike at November 2, 2004 1:59 PM

JTF-
How long before the victim of this crime is painted as the perpetrator?

Posted by: Mike at November 2, 2004 2:00 PM

Or should I have stated, how long before the perpetrator of this crime is painted as the victim? It seems the campaign has already begun. Soon we'll be reading the same slander that people heaped on Pim Fortuyn - mark my words.

Posted by: Mike at November 2, 2004 2:02 PM

Let's get a few facts straight:
To the author of this blog entry: stop exploiting the death of Pim Fortuyn. Pim was *not* murdered by somebody directly associated with the "jihad".
To the people here who invoke the blood-thirsty tribal wargod of the Abrahamic religions: Theo van Gogh was an atheist and strongly opposed any form of religious extremism. If you truly respect him, stop mentioning this world-threatening superstition.

Finally, I'm as shocked about this brutal murder as the next person and fear for the effects it's going to have on our freedom on speach, but can't any of you at least wait until we have *confirmation* of who comitted this murder, and especially why?

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 2:21 PM

Dear "Seeker from A/A":

In no way am I "exploiting" the death of Pim Fortuyn. Clearly you are ignorant of some of the central facts of that case. I invite you to click on his name in the posting above and see why he was murdered.

An ABC News story tells us this about van Gogh's attacker: "Van Gogh's killer shot and stabbed his victim and left a note on his body. NOS said witnesses described the attacker as having an 'Arab appearance.'...'He was walking slowly, like he was trying to be cool,' she said, describing him as wearing a long beard and Islamic garb. 'He was either an Arabic man or someone disguised as a Muslim,' she said."

That is from this story:
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=218066

I think it is not unreasonable to assume that the man killed van Gogh out of a concern for Islamic blasphemy stipulations. If this turns out not to be the case, I will certainly post it here.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at November 2, 2004 3:45 PM

Words from Don McLean's Starry Starry Night, written for another Vincent, come to mind

The silver thorn, a
bloody rose Lie crushed and
broken on the virgin snow….
They would not listen, they did not know how.
Perhaps they'll listen now.

Now I think I know what you tried to say to me,
How you suffered for your sanity,
How you tried to set them free.
They would not listen, they're not listening still.
Perhaps they never will. "

Posted by: DP111 at November 2, 2004 3:52 PM

To the people here who invoke the blood-thirsty tribal wargod of the Abrahamic religions: Theo van Gogh was an atheist and strongly opposed any form of religious extremism.

I am an atheist, yet somehow I am not worried about Christian or Jewsish extremists.

I am told that right-wing Christian fundamentalists threaten my civil liberties, yet the only people who try to silence the expression of my political views are Lefties who hate Christianity, and who accuse anyone whose views are to the right of theirs, of being Fascist. And while they compare their president to Hitler (something that could never happen under anyone even close to Hitler), they use the exact intimidation tactics used by Hitler's comrades back in the day.

I am told that Israel is a terrorist state, yet I don't see Jewish mothers teaching their children to hate Arabs more than they love life. I don't hear Jewish politicians say that peace in the Middle East is only possible when some Muslim state is annihilated.

This generalization that I keep hearing from the so-called liberals, that all the three monotheist are equally bad, is just silly nonsense. Chistians don't worship a murderous Czar as their prophet, and neither do Jews.

Posted by: Ivan Lenin at November 2, 2004 4:09 PM

SEEKER FROM AA

It's not that I disagree with your call for calm and clear heads and all that. But lets get something straight. There is no reason whatsoever to ignore and hope that the Moccoran Muslim murderer of a Dutch born citizen of historic lineage was anything but a Muslim who was following the tenents of the Islamic religion.

I am sick of apologists muddling the needed feeling let alone expression of rage. Every act of Muslim barbarism is given the multiple benefit of the doubt beyond all reason, like your disingenious red herring, "if you respect him you will wait for facts, he was an athiest...".

Jihadi operatives and assassians have a footprint in Europe and you should be more concerned with that than lecturing calm as the deck chairs of the Titanic are sliding off the ship.

Of course such an assinine post could be an indication that you are in fact one of the many Islamic apologists or subscribers to the spirit of Islamism that are infesting the world today.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 4:14 PM

"Pim was *not* murdered by somebody directly associated with the "jihad"."

That very well may be true, but the murderer in this case manifested the typical behavior of European dhimmis who are complicit in the degradation of the multi-cultural societies of the West by assaulting people - whether it be rhetorically or physically - for exercising their freedoms of thought, conscience and speech. It is a pernicious pattern of behavior we have seen time and time again from people who claim to be acting in the interests of humanity, when in fact they are attacking the human rights they falsely claim to be defending.
Stop trying to silence people with your cries of exploitation, Seeker. You sound alarmingly like Volkert Van der Graaf.

Posted by: Mike at November 2, 2004 4:40 PM

One begins to feel, at this thread, the whiff of the 1930s. Perhaps it is the anguished report sent a few minutes after the murder Jihadwatch by "Martin from Amsterdam." One involuntarily is reminded of "Address Unknown"(Adressat Unbekannt) by Kressmann Taylor, a short but important book in shaping American public opinion before and during the war, like John Roy Carlson's "Under Cover." Though in "Address Unknown" the name "Martin" is not that of the avenging hero ("Max"), but of the Nazi villain upon whom vengeance is wreaked, I am sure the involuntarily evocation will be understood, not least by "Martin from Amsterdam" in Holland, now under steady siege.

In all of this, the Nazis and the Communists, the street violence, and the agitation, the Brownshirts of Roehm, the Balilla of Mussolini, the agitated and crazed atmosphere, from the kidnapping of General Miller by the Reds, to Willi Munzenberg and the Comintern, to Ernst Roehm, and the Night of the Long Knives, and all the propaganda put out by Goebbels, including the Prussian Junkers sent abroad to allay any fears of their fellow classmates in pre-war Oxford or Harvard -- all of this is somehow summoned up.

But there are major differences. First, this time the carriers of the crazed belief-system, can hide behind its shapeshifting qualty -- and call it merely a "religion" and pretend that it is only a "handful of extremists" who are the problem. And second, and still more unfortunate, is the failure to maintain standards in the teaching of history and literature in the Western world, which in turn means that few young people possess the knowledge, or have had training in the use of words, or in the exercise of their imagination, that close study of literary texts can sometimes provide, and that would do much to help in the right formulation of policy. Third, and most worrisome, is that many Believers in this hostile belief-system have alreeady been admitted, to live, deep behind our own, our Infidel lines -- and we, the Infidels, and those whose duty it is to instruct us, mostly refuse to see things as they are and to grasp at straws, and substitute wishes for reality. It is not the likes of Gilles Kepel who can help us, but Ali Sina, Ibn Warraq, Bat Ye'or, and some of those right here at Jihadwatch.

Posted by: Hugh at November 2, 2004 4:43 PM

Theo, rest in peace,
you were a brave daring warrior
who used his talents and did his duty
for country and fellow citizens

May your muslim murder,
scum of the earth, jihadi slime,
join the demons of the underworld,
and remain there,
chained to a pig and black dog
until the end of time.

Posted by: the poetess at November 2, 2004 5:15 PM

Latest news on the van Gogh assassination:

From Reuters:

Police said the murder was clearly premeditated.

A note was found at the scene and, Dutch media said, it contained lines from the Koran, the Muslim holy book.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?storyID=6691859

From the Guardian:

http://film.guardian.co.uk/apnews/story/0,1276,-4590689,00.html

Posted by: Mike at November 2, 2004 5:16 PM

What a sad, sad day. The loss of Mr. Van Gogh is a nauseating tragedy.

I'm an atheist too. Sometimes I think religious people believe in some pretty funny, messed up stuff. Sacred cows, virgin sacrifices... circumcision... special underwear...? heh. Allllrighty then.

But Islam has a nightmarish quality that is exponentially more disturbing. What monstrous, vile god do these extremists worship? And why is this particular form of mental virus so easily spread?

What a sad day. May justice be swift.

Posted by: Border Collie at November 2, 2004 5:38 PM

"Police in the Hague, seat of the Dutch government, arrested several people who had been shouting anti-immigrant slogans."

How can we win?
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?storyID=6691859

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 5:40 PM

Murder has a Terrorist Link

The person arrested for the murder of Theo van Gogh is a friend of Samir A., an 18 year old from Rotterdam who was arrested in June while preparing for a terrorist attack.

In Samir's house they found blueprints and maps for the Tweede Kamer (Second House of the Dutch Parliament) and other buildings. His arrest led to a well known terror alarm.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/15279601/Verdachte_moord_Van_Gogh_bevriend_met_Samir_A..html

Posted by: false23 at November 2, 2004 5:48 PM

Dear mr. Spencer:

"In no way am I "exploiting" the death of Pim Fortuyn."

You wrote in your blog entry: "First Pim Fortuyn and now Theo van Gogh: both were assassinated for their perceived offenses against Islam.". This is factually wrong. Volkert van der Graaf has never given an official explanation why he murdered Fortuyn, other than that he considered Pim Fortuyn a "danger for society". It's probably true that Fortuyn's opinions about non-integrated Muslims were part of the reason why Van der Graaf considered Fortuyn "a danger", but it's certainly not the main reason. Add to that the fact that van der Graaf is a vegetarian Dutchman with Christian ancestry, and a primary link with "Jihad" becomes extremely shaky.

"Clearly you are ignorant of some of the central facts of that case. I invite you to click on his name in the posting above and see why he was murdered."

I advise you not to make assessments about people based on one message. I'm a Dutchman, living in another EU country, and I actually voted Fortuyn through an absentee ballot before he was murdered. Believe me, I followed all the news about Fortuyn as it happened, and I still support his ideas.

"That is from this story:"

I got my sources straight from Dutch TV which has been running the whole day. I have been following the story since 10.00 this morning (even before the official confirmation) so to me, there's nothing new in your sources.

"I think it is not unreasonable to assume that the man killed van Gogh out of a concern for Islamic blasphemy stipulations. If this turns out not to be the case, I will certainly post it here."

Neither do I. And I do fear that it will turn out to be true. Still, other than condemning the murderer for his horrific crime, I wait with making other assessments about the killer until the facts are in.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 6:01 PM

Dear Ivan lenin:
"I am an atheist, yet somehow I am not worried about Christian or Jewsish extremists."

I agree that in Europe, Christian and Jewish extremism is nearly non-existent. However, in other civilised parts of the world, notoriously the US, these extremists can be equally dangerous and have been known to murder non-belivers purely for not believing in their god.

"This generalization that I keep hearing from the so-called liberals, that all the three monotheist are equally bad, is just silly nonsense."

I didn't said "all three monotheisms", I clearly mentioned extremism. And in all three cases, this extremism is equally bad. OTOH, the moderate version of all three monotheisms are equally silly yet mostly hamrless.

"Chistians don't worship a murderous Czar as their prophet, and neither do Jews."

Have you ever really read the "holy book" these religions follow? I did (why else do you think I'm an atheist?) Believe me, their prophets are equally bloodthirsty. Fortunately, modern Christianity and Judaism follow a watered-down version of their religion.
We can only hope that mainstream Islam will enter this stage ASAP. Of course, pointing fingers and blaming them all for the acts of a part will only fuel polarisation and extremism.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 6:13 PM

My dear "Seeker from A/A":

You say: "You wrote in your blog entry: 'First Pim Fortuyn and now Theo van Gogh: both were assassinated for their perceived offenses against Islam.'. This is factually wrong. Volkert van der Graaf has never given an official explanation why he murdered Fortuyn, other than that he considered Pim Fortuyn a 'danger for society'."

I don't know what you would consider an "official" explanation, but I would ask you to provide evidence that the lead paragraph in the CNN story linked above is inaccurate. That paragraph is: "The man accused of assassinating Dutch anti-immigration politician Pim Fortuyn has told judges he acted on behalf of the country's Muslims." It is based on statements from van der Graaf that are quoted in the article, and others that I have seen quoted in other articles. Please provide evidence that this widely reported material is in fact false.

You say: "I advise you not to make assessments about people based on one message. I'm a Dutchman..."

I don't believe I asserted that you were not a Dutchman.

I make my judgments based on what I know of "Submission" and the threats van Gogh received, plus information about the alleged killer, much of which is now available in the comments section. You may disagree with that judgment, but to assert that it is based on anything less than established facts, and that it is some species of "exploitation," is just base political posturing, not reasoned discourse.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at November 2, 2004 6:14 PM

SEEKER FROM AA

You think your "waiting for the facts" baloney is worth all the effort you put into agreeing with most of the evidence in this Islamic strike on the Netherlands?

You then sieze the the murder of Fotruyn which is not the issue here and attempt to distract people by expressing outrage about that, more so than about the assassination of Theo Van Gogh.

Consider your post. Look at how you basically defend the indefensible by side-tracking the issue to an argument proping your moral superiority and wisdom by announcing you will be "waiting for all the facts."

You jerk of a Dutchman. Your type of thinking is precisely why your children will be living under Islamic law. But in the run-up to that, the Netherlands will suffer the disgrace of banding over forewards to accomidate a cun ning and relentless enemey.

I hope you don't represent the rest of the Dutch because if you do, that would be a pathetic disgrace.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 6:21 PM

AN OPEN MEMO TO EUROPEANS FROM THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES:

Although these two brutal murders are a truly horrid tragedy no one should be surprised. Look at the text of a Qur'an if you do not understand the reason we say this. There are any number of Qur'anic verses that should eliminate any doubts in your minds that Islam is a killing machine.

The moral of this news story: OUTLAW ISLAM NOW AND SEND ISLAM'S DISCIPLES BACK TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND ASIA! DO IT NOW!!! CALL YOUR GOVERNMENT REPRESENTATIVES!!! AND TELL THEM THAT.....

Islam from a legal perspective constitutes conspiracy to commit murder AND conspiracy to commit genocide. Both are CAPITAL CRIMES in any western nation. Islam therefore has no place in any civilized part of the world.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 2, 2004 6:22 PM

A memo to all those who believe the Judeo-Christian faith condones homicide:
One of the ten commandments--which were written in stone: THOU SHALT KILL.

Remember this one was written in stone.

Not all of the bible is God's word anyway. Much of the Old Testament is simply historical figures talking among themselves and does NOT IN FACT constitute 'God's word'. And Jesus was no fan of homicide either.

SO those who place Christianity and Judeism in the same category of Islam are wrong. Wrong. Wrong. THOU SHALT NOT KILL.

p.s.--'an eye for an eye' is simply a definition of a society's rights if it is attacked or invaded. It is not a supposedly divine rubber stamp for religious killings as some negatively say.

Posted by: pythagoras at November 2, 2004 6:33 PM

My dear "Seeker from A/A":

You say: "I agree that in Europe, Christian and Jewish extremism is nearly non-existent. However, in other civilised parts of the world, notoriously the US, these extremists can be equally dangerous and have been known to murder non-belivers purely for not believing in their god."

I'm sorry, but this is one of the most ridiculous charges I have ever seen. Please provide evidence that anyone has ever been murdered in the US for not being a Christian or a Jew.

It is clear now that your perceptions are quite divorced from reality. I'm sorry I bothered to reply to you.

By the way, I'm not even sure you're a Dutchman after all, and certainly not a supporter of Fortuyn. I think you are yet another poseur, of which this site has seen many.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at November 2, 2004 6:34 PM

Dear Andrew,

"There is no reason whatsoever to ignore and hope that the Moccoran Muslim murderer of a Dutch born citizen of historic lineage was anything but a Muslim who was following the tenents of the Islamic religion."

Although there is no conclusive proof yet that the murderer is indeed Muslim, I agree that the probability is extrememly high (especially now that it has been shown that the murderer had ties with Samir A.)
I also think that I didn't claim anything to the opposite. It's just that I hold to one of the basic principles of justice in a democracy, namely "innocent until proven guilty"

"Every act of Muslim barbarism is given the multiple benefit of the doubt beyond all reason,"

First, I never gave benefit of the doubt. I condemned the murder without exception. And if (or probably when) the murderer turns out to belong to a certain Muslim denomination, I will just as strongly condemn that denomination. Just as when I condemned the availability of "the way of the Muslim" or the reaction that followed the airing of "Submission".

"like your disingenious red herring, "if you respect him you will wait for facts, he was an athiest..."."

That is not what I wrote. My mentioning van Gogh's atheism was complete seperated from my suggestion to wait for the facts before making conclusions.

"Of course such an assinine post could be an indication that you are in fact one of the many Islamic apologists or subscribers to the spirit of Islamism that are infesting the world today."

Snort. This is almost funny. Me, an atheist who always votes VVD (with the exception of Fortuyn in 2002) being and Islamic apologist.
That makes me think of my earlier mention of having facts before coming to conclusions.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 6:36 PM

Dear Seeker,
You seem to think that atheism means disrespect for religion. Now, that's what *I* call silly.

I have indeed read the Bible, and I find believing in it not any more silly than not believing in God. In fact, I think that Christianity has been a great help in building Western Civilization, preserving the writings of antiquity, empowering of the individual, and scientific progress. Dismissing Christianity is perhaps the stupidest thing that the academic establishment has done, and that we all are paying for. We're paying for it with poor quality of American education, where the notion of objective truth has been sacrifised to the Gods of Political Correctness and Multicultural Gender Studies. We're paying with generations of impotent brats who have no morality, no courage, and no clue - because they've been told that everything is capitalists' fault, and if not, it's something having to do with their mother.

I happen to live in the United States, and while I've heard of lunatics who killed people because they were not Christian, I am yet to hear Christian priests praise such behavior. I am yet to hear those "extremist" Christians scream (while kicking and spitting at my friends) at the top of their lungs, that I am a Nazi because I don't agree with them, and that they will start killing people if their political candidate doesn't get elected. I am yet to see those anti-intellectual Christians present a grave threat to American education and humanities, by occupying key positions at Universities, and ridding them of those who don't support their ideology.

The Lefties have made a bogeyman out of Christianity, but the kind of groupthink inquisition they are establishing is more dangerous to our civilization than anything Christians have done in all these 2000 years.

I'm glad you're seeking the truth, but please, stop looking in your rectum. You won't find anything new in there, and will only make yourself look silly in the process. There are better places to pull your arguments from.

Posted by: Ivan Lenin at November 2, 2004 6:44 PM

Dear Mike:

"Stop trying to silence people with your cries of exploitation, Seeker."

Where did I do anything coming close to trying to silence a person? All I did was pointing out a misrepresentation of the facts.

"You sound alarmingly like Volkert Van der Graaf."

really, where have I come close to expressing the opinion that it would be better for society to kill one of you?

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 6:46 PM

SEEKER FROM AA

No. You are not going to distract me with you smokescreens Jerk. You can dissect my response to you in any way you like, but it is clear to me that people (I'm assuming you're human), who think like you do are a very big reason our Western societies are bein exploited by islamists.

It is feckless cowards like you, the Flying Dhimmi Dutchman who misdirect anger by confusing the issue. All with a smile and more than a hint of moral superiority.

I despise cowards like you who HIDE behing lofty ideals while a murderous ideology seeks to enslave all of us.

You are a cowardly Jerk.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 6:51 PM

Hey JERK

You still havn't accepted the sad fact that the Fortuyn Murder was committed by someone very much like you, who acting to defend Islam and Muslims.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 6:57 PM

I am beginning to be more than a little nervous about the virulent hatred that the left has for Christianity. I know this began in our esteemed institutions of higher learning. I have seen comments lately about having tolerance for all religions EXCEPT Christianity. It just does not make sense.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 2, 2004 7:07 PM

Dear mister Spencer,

"I don't know what you would consider an "official" explanation,"

This was a poor choice of words on my part. I meant to say a "detailed" explanation, because all he said was that he wanted to "protect the weaker members of society"

"but I would ask you to provide evidence that the lead paragraph in the CNN story linked above is inaccurate."

I hadn't read that text before, but in my opinion, it's a gross generalisation. All (Dutch) sources I've seen, from all sides of the political spectrum, describe the murder as being to "protect the weaker groups in society". Sometimes these groups are described as "immigrants, people on welfare, muslims, etc", but I've never seen a claim that it would be mailnly or uniquely for the "protection" of muslims.

"I don't believe I asserted that you were not a Dutchman."

I know that you didn't make that assesment. I only used my being a Dutchman as an introduction to my explanation why I'm not "ignorant of some of the central facts of that case"

"You may disagree with that judgment [about the murder of Van gogh], but to assert that it is based on anything less than established facts, and that it is some species of "exploitation," is just base political posturing, not reasoned discourse."

I would like to point out that my claim of exploitation was only about the murder of Pim Fortuyn.
I did not and still do not challenge your claims about the murder of Van Gogh and the probable reasons for this murder.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 7:24 PM

CREEPER FROM AA

Why are you continuing to nit-pick the Fortuyn murder. You basically agreed with Spencer on the entire issue.

You are doing mental contortions for Muslims in your search to distract from the SLAUGHTER of Theo Van Gogh.

You are a Dhimmi. Your children will be ideological slaves.

Who gives a damn about your votes or your high moral standards, or your claim that you are a Dutchman.

The murderer was a "Dutchman" too, apparantly a Muslim with dual citizenship.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 7:42 PM

Dear Andrew:

"You then sieze the the murder of Fotruyn which is not the issue here and attempt to distract people by expressing outrage about that, more so than about the assassination of Theo Van Gogh."

Actually, my first message was primarily that the murder of Pim Fortuyn is irrelevent to this discussion. I don't see any "distracting" in wanting to keep the discussion about my claim focused on the primary claim I made.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 7:51 PM

Dear mr. Spencer

"I'm sorry, but this is one of the most ridiculous charges I have ever seen. Please provide evidence that anyone has ever been murdered in the US for not being a Christian or a Jew."

Certainly: http://www.freep.com/news/cfp/3/vshoot28_20041028.htm

And then of course, there are enough cases of people being murdered for being "wrong in the eyes of God". like being gay, performing abortions, etc. (but I'll admit that those facts are mostly irrelevant to this discussion. Other than to indicate there are extremist nutjobs amongst all religions)

"It is clear now that your perceptions are quite divorced from reality. I'm sorry I bothered to reply to you."

Strange, but that's almost exactly the same idea I've gotten from my discussion with some people here.

"By the way, I'm not even sure you're a Dutchman after all, and certainly not a supporter of Fortuyn. I think you are yet another poseur, of which this site has seen many."

Oh well, I can't force to accept the truth.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 8:00 PM

When I read comments from you equating Christianity and Islam then cautioning against "Alienating" Muslims by daring to think they might be a danger, I know I dealing with an asshat.

Your posts are heavy on Muslim sympathy and caution and light on the issue at hand, the SLAUGHTER of THEO VAN GOGH.

Go Truck yourself off to Morocco if you are so concerned with their well being JERK.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 8:02 PM

Dear "Seeker from A/A":

Very well. You found a religious killing in America. But even granting that this killer was sane, which is not at all clear, what you are trying to do with this evidence hardly qualifies as such.

So you equate one murder by one obvious madman with the global jihad network?

Please educate me: please show me where and when Christian preachers have exhorted their followers today to go out and kill unbelievers. Please show me where they have justified these exhortations with Bible quotes. Please show me where in Christianity there is anything comparable to the jihad ideology that mandates warfare against unbelievers as a central element of Islamic theology and law.

You can't find any of this. Not from mainstream Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. But mainstream Islam? A casual search through the archives on this site will give you reams of quotes from Muslim preachers exhorting to violence, using Qur'an quotes to justify killing, etc.

Yet you equate the two. With Theo van Gogh dead, that is a myopia and exercise in moral equivalence for which there is no excuse.

Cordially,
Robert Spencer

Posted by: jihadwatch at November 2, 2004 8:09 PM

Seeker from A/A:

You wrote that you voted for Pim Fortuyn. Why? What is you attitude towards multiculturalism and islamification of the West? Are you for or against it? Maybe you should clarify that...

The example of someone of Christian conviction killing someone because he is not a Christian is a joke, right? If that is supposed to prove that (American) Christian are as fanatic as the Jihadists you need your head checked (like the guy in the report who shot the man).

Remember - the people on here are not politically correct and therefore not braindead!

Posted by: disillusionised_german at November 2, 2004 8:13 PM

Dear Andrew Lenin,

"You seem to think that atheism means disrespect for religion. Now, that's what *I* call silly."

I'm sorry that you got that impression.
I know for a fact that atheism is nothing more or less than disbelieving gods.
Of course, it is well within my right to claim that in my eyes, all beliefs in gods are basically silly. Which doesn't mean that I don't have respect for many individual believers.

"I have indeed read the Bible, and I find believing in it not any more silly than not believing in God. [...]"

We obviously have different ideas about that and the supposed positive effects of Cristianity. However, I won't be going into detail about that because it would derail the subject.

"I happen to live in the United States, and while I've heard of lunatics who killed people because they were not Christian, I am yet to hear Christian priests praise such behavior."

Haven't you heard of Rev; Micheal Phelps?

"I am yet to hear those "extremist" Christians scream (while kicking and spitting at my friends) at the top of their lungs, that I am a Nazi because I don't agree with them, and that they will start killing people if their political candidate doesn't get elected."

Me too. However, I haven't heard such Muslim claims in Europe or the US either.

"I am yet to see those anti-intellectual Christians present a grave threat to American education and humanities, by occupying key positions at Universities, and ridding them of those who don't support their ideology."

Haven't you heard about the school boards that forbid or "modify" the teaching of evolution?

"I'm glad you're seeking the truth, but please, stop looking in your rectum."

That's usually the last place I look

"There are better places to pull your arguments from."

I typically read arguments from several angles, so I'd like to think that my opinions are well-informed.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 8:14 PM

Dear "Seeker from A/A":

Somebody said: "I happen to live in the United States, and while I've heard of lunatics who killed people because they were not Christian, I am yet to hear Christian priests praise such behavior."

And you responded: "Haven't you heard of Rev; Micheal Phelps?"

No, actually, I haven't. What buildings has he blown up?

Posted by: jihadwatch at November 2, 2004 8:17 PM

Ah, I see the Beeb (BBC) are playing Super Dhimmi again:

"...Although the film triggered an outcry from Dutch Muslims, many were quick to condemn the killing of Mr van Gogh.

One woman of Moroccan descent, Ikram, came to the rally with a sign saying "Muslims against violence".

"I was debating whether or not to come, but I decided that as a Muslim and a Moroccan I should take up my responsibility to show that we do not support this act," she told AFP news agency.

"I didn't really agree with van Gogh but he was a person who used his freedom of expression," said Themer Abourayan, a young Dutch Muslim of Egyptian descent.

Mr Van Gogh - who was related to the famous Dutch painter - had also been making a film about Pim Fortuyn, the populist right-wing, anti-immigration politician assassinated in May 2002.

The Netherlands is home to nearly one million Muslims or 5.5% of the population.

Whole article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3976567.stm

Posted by: disillusionised_german at November 2, 2004 8:18 PM

seeker from a/a
you can wait until all evidence is in,
you can wait until the cows come home,
you can wait until there's no more sin,
you can wait until godot comes back,
you can wait until they outnumber you
you can wait until the terrorists attack,
you can wait until all hands are tied,
you can wait until all words are silenced,
you can wait until you wear a green arm band
and all freedoms are forbidden in your land,
just ask Theo how long you can wait.

Posted by: the poetess at November 2, 2004 8:20 PM

CREEPER From AA

There is no "Andrew Lenin" here. You are confusing me and another poster, "Ivan Lenin"-get your facts straight.

I am convinced you are a Muslim-defnitely an Islamic sympathizer-who is MOCKING the SLAUGHTER of THEO VAN GOGH by placing Western, not Islamic civilization on trial here.

Typical Islamic ruse intended confuse and derail the focus.

F**K you.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 8:33 PM

Today was a terrible day for my country. It feels like I am living in Northern Ireland or Falludjah today. No one bothered about the American election because today on, the 19th of the holy month Ramadam of the year 1425 exactly 911 days after the murder on our politician Pim Fortuijn a stupid Muslim executed our famous moviemaker and columnist Theo van Gogh for blasphemy. In front of babies and little children, the son of shaitan shot five bullets in Theo’s body, tried to cut of his head with a butchers knife and stung two knifes in his belly of which one was accompanied of a paper with a religious text.. The words on this paper are not put in the public yet but I expect it will at least say something like Allah Akbar. Well, it seems that sharia rules around here. Although Theo was controversial and his attacks on Islam were mean and low, it was always clear that he was making a point, a point in which today he proved to be right that Islam in Europe will never fit in unless it rules and oppresses. On the run, the “martyr” shot a policeman, who wear a bullet-proof vest in his belly and was shot in his knee before they captured him.

Of course van Gogh also insulted Christians and Jews and he could really hurt me but we are supposed to undergo it, and on the points were he has any right, be ashamed for ourselves and try to improve it. I have already taken the opinion that there is n good in Islam and that I am waiting for the first news that proves different. As I believe and know that religion can give you great satisfaction, I see that Islam gives you frustration and hatred. For that reason I can describe Islam only as a search for God that brings you right in the hands of satan. I start to get a bit worried round here. The columns of van Gogh, the reactions on it and his murder at least proved that there is something wrong in this country and I think that it is better to have that knowledge than to have to live in a country were all this mess is covered up. I can only hope that in this country of trade, the main export product for the future will be Islamic fundamentalists who have fallen in disgrace of our society. I, because I know the Bible , am glad to know that evil is easy to recognise. It always wants to destroy freedom, peace and the Jews.

Posted by: Boeboe Achja at November 2, 2004 8:38 PM

Dear mr. Spencer

"But even granting that this killer was sane, which is not at all clear, what you are trying to do with this evidence hardly qualifies as such."

Not a lot. I never made a big point of it. Just to show that there are nutcases amongst all extremist groups who are willing to kill for their cause. As for the sanity point. Personally, I don't think that any extremist can be considered truly sane.

"So you equate one murder by one obvious madman with the global jihad network?"

No, I don't.

"You can't find any of this [calls and justifications of violence]. Not from mainstream Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant."

Not amongst most mainstream churches, that's true. however, I never talked about mainstream, I talked about fundamentalist Christians.

"Yet you equate the two. With Theo van Gogh dead, that is a myopia and exercise in moral equivalence for which there is no excuse."

I equate fundamentalist Christianity with fundamentalist Islam.
The big difference is that the number of fundamentalist Christians is low enough to be suppressed by the laws of the country, while fundamentalist Islam does have a hold over several governments in the Middle east.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 8:39 PM

In my country in every country town and city there is a memorial to those who perished in the first world war to protect our freedom. These monuments are there so we will understand that our freedom came from our war deads’ sacrifice. We are at war with islamo/theofascism. Shouldn't there be a memorial to all who are being murdered for the islamist creed? Shouldn't there be a humongous wall in stone inscribed with names of all our people who have been silenced and butchered by Islamists.

When the islamists and their appeasers try to revise history to make themselves look like people of peace we could point to the memorial that instantly and irrefutably exposes their lies. If the government won't do it can't civilians? It would be an education to everyone. As the war progresses and the wall starts to stretch forever in length we could always point to it to remind everyone what a threat this islamist movement is.

I feel outraged at what is happening now with van Gogh's assassination. It sets a precedent for the murder of people willing to do nothing but be free in thought and deed. I just wish there was something more than memories to remember these people by. I fear their sacrifice will not be widely recognised and will be quickly forgotten by so many. The list of war dead is already so long. Have they not bled as much as our war dead in past wars to protect our freedom? I want somewhere to honour them and reflect on their sacrifice. They deserve that.

LEST WE FORGET

Posted by: obl r us at November 2, 2004 8:49 PM

Dear disillusionised_german,

"You wrote that you voted for Pim Fortuyn. Why?"

Because I agreed with his views on the problems of too much bureaucracy.
Because I agreed with his view on the medical system
Because I agreed that the freedom of speach couldn't be limited because it "might offend a minority"
Because I agreed that the Netherlands should stay Dutch
etc.

"What is you attitude towards multiculturalism and islamification of the West?"

I believe that a "multicultural" country is a phantom idea. I do believe in a multi-etnical society though, but that society should maintain it's original culture, possibly "augmented" with cultural ideas that *don't conflict* with the original culture.
And since I am proud of us living in a mostly secular society, I am against *any* religiously inspired modification of this society, including Islamist inspirations (which are at the moment the most prevalent)

"The example of someone of Christian conviction killing someone because he is not a Christian is a joke, right? If that is supposed to prove that (American) Christian are as fanatic as the Jihadists you need your head checked (like the guy in the report who shot the man)."

No, it's to indicate that fundamentalists of all religions are potentially dangerous. (and yes, as I have said before, I'm fully aware that there are more concentrations of Islamic fundamentalists than Christian ones)

"Remember - the people on here are not politically correct and therefore not braindead!"

Neither am I.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 8:53 PM

A man has been murdered because he made a movie. He was killed in a western country in broad daylight, the murderer tried to behead him. That is horrific, the argument as to who did it is asinine. Who cuts off heads? Who leaves Islamic text on a body? Don't jump to conclusions indeed.

Posted by: Carolyn2 at November 2, 2004 8:55 PM

CREEPER FROM AA

"I do believe in a multi-etnical society though, but that society should maintain it's original culture, possibly "augmented" with cultural ideas that *don't conflict* with the original culture."

So that means Muslims are not allowed in Flying (Dhimmi) Dutchman's world, since their cultural ideas clash with every society they inhabit.

I dare call you a Muslim mocking us at the BRUTAL MURDER of THEOR VAN GOGH.

BOEBOE ACHJA

ARE YOU SURE THE ISLAMIST TRIED TO CUT THEO'S HEAD OFF WITH A KNIFE?

THAT FACT SHOULD NOT BE SWEPT UNDER THE RUG AS WELL AND SHOULD BE USED TO ILLUSTRATE THE KIND OF ACTS THESE SEEMINGLY NORMAL IMMIGRANTS ARE CAPABLE OFIN "DEFENSE" OF THEIR RELIGION.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 9:06 PM

BoeBoe,
yes it's better to have the knowledge
and know the truth, for it can set you free.
and you are still Free.

Your sorrow is everyone's,
for all of us here have felt
the pangs(pain)of fear,
the awe of mohammed,
that comes with this knowledge
that they are demon fiends, fueled by hate,
and that our fate hangs by a thread . . .

now you know the secret,
we are all victims of jihad.
that is why we must band together
for support, all religions,
all races,nations, all creeds,
we need to work together. Welcome

Posted by: the poetess at November 2, 2004 9:07 PM

Dear mr. Spencer:

When I was asked for an example of Christian Priests praising the killing of non-christians, I replied with the question: "Haven't you heard of Rev; Micheal Phelps?"
To which you answered: "No, actually, I haven't. What buildings has he blown up?"

First, I must apologise for the mix-up. I meant of course Rev. Fred Phelps (Micheal Phelps is the swimmer. Sorry, my bad)

This "reverend" calls for making homosexuality a capital offense. Every time a homosexual dies (especially after a hate-crime) they cheer it on and only blame the dead person. This person even had the audacity to "thank god for 9/11"
Don't believe me on my word though. See it for yourself at www.godhatesfags.com I warn you that this site contains extreme opinions.

And yes, I know he hasn't blown up buildings, but the original question was about Christian priests praising that behaviour.

Posted by: Seeker from A/A at November 2, 2004 9:08 PM

To Seeker from A/A:

Then I don't understand what your exact point is. Are you with us in our fight against (radical) Islam - I am against Islam altogether, I have to add - or do you have another agenda? I just returned from the US and I feel more at home there than in Germany these days - at least 99 percent of the people in Ohio speak a language I speak (which isn't the case here).

Fact is - if Pim Fortuyn had lived he may have caused a lot of positive changes in the Netherlands. If that moron hadn't killed him I'm pretty sure some muslim would have. Van Gogh is an example for that.

I considered myself agnostic until a while ago but if our religion is the bond we share in our struggle against (radical) Islam I will consider myself Christian again.

Posted by: disillusionised_german at November 2, 2004 9:09 PM

SEEKER FROM A/A

I think it safe to say your facts are completely screwed up.

I also think you are in fact a Muslim attempting to do what, I don't know, maybe probe or mock?

You are officially on my ignore list.

Later moron.

Posted by: Andrew at November 2, 2004 9:18 PM

Fundamentalist Christianity might have a few creeps in its cast of characters, no doubt. But I don't think that those of us who criticize Christianity fear for our very lives(!) the same way that those who speak out against Islam do.

Having a website like this takes cajones. Especially in light of what happened today to Theo Van Gogh! Rock on, jihadwatch.

Posted by: Border Collie at November 2, 2004 9:22 PM

Carolyn2 you nailed it

Boder Collie, I agree

Disilllusionized German,
thanks for going to the rally,
do whatever it takes

Andrew kudos for your comments,

Robert please don't waste your time,
it's way to valuable to spend with a/a,

good night everyone,
and don't ever forget.

Posted by: the poetess at November 2, 2004 9:31 PM

Dear seeker from A/A,,

No!
You are completely wrong on all points. First of all, “madman” seems to have connections with an eighteen year old terrorist who volunteered to fight in Chechnya, was charged of raiding a shop with big guns to get funds for global jihad, made a suicide testimony and had detailed maps of our airports and governmental buildings for bomb attacks or attacks on politicians. Beside of that, the treads by Muslims to Theo van Gogh exceeds the number of thousands, today, in our country most Muslim fori where not accessible cause of maintenance. The true reason was that they were erasing treats to mr. van Gogh.
As I told before, mr van Gogh also insulted Christians and there religion, comments from there side usually were directed to the contents and not to Theo van Gogh personally.
In spite of what is presumed, there are a lot of Christian fundamentalists in our country, but they are learned by there believe and except it, that they should obey the government, in spite of their numbers, even when they pass laws about drugs, euthanasia and gay marriage. There is a big difference between disapproval and killing. There is a big understanding amongst these people that the things Theo did in submission could not be handled by any Muslim in our country but in Dutch Christianity it would never result in his death. In my opinion, submission made clear some defects that Islam carries in itself and is not to blame to Theo but to Islam itself. I do not know where you come from but here in Europe I do not know one single sole that has anything to fear from Christianity while the critics on Islam need to be bullet prove.

Posted by: Boeboe Achja at November 2, 2004 9:52 PM

Please let's none of us forget Theo Van Gogh's murder.

Please, each year, let's remember him and his courageous stance against Islam.

For all those who say that Islam is just as bad as christianity, Theo Van Gogh was an equal opportunity offender. He was anti-christian, anti-Jewish, and anti-Islam, but it wasn't a christian or Jew who killed him, it was a muslim. Never forget that.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 2, 2004 9:54 PM

seeker from A/A

Look up the word "Rhetorical",then check out
the definition of "Paranoia",then look up the word "Opinion".
Make sure you take your head is out of the Glue-bag so you're remaining brian cells can do a
self-analysis test. Your endless qualifying of a point or disecting an opinion says allot more about what your like rather than the person you attempt to debase or explain away as a bigot or narrow minded Islamophobe.
Lets see if you can actually allow someone like me to have an opinion different from your version of reality that you feel challenged enough to
see me as the enemy of all the truths stored in
your head based on untested realities.

Ask yourself why it was that when only 7 soldiers out of the over 100,000 Americans in Iraq were ALLEGED to have abused prisoners which included a masked person that we still haven't seen in person,Muslims were quick to say the beheading videos were faked by the CIA but easily faked digital pictures were enough proof to murder infidels to defend Islam.
Too bad there aren't more people like you in Palestine and Iraq,the world would be a better place since you believe all people are innocent until proven guilty at a legal trial with actual evidence.
Just because a Arab looking man knifed a non-Muslim that was perceived as defaming Islam and also tried to behead him in public and later was found with Quranic verses on a sheet of paper while being of Moroccan origin,doesn't mean we can use bigotry to jump to a conclusion that Islam had something to do with it.
After all the 19 hijackers on 9/11 only claimed to be Muslims and little physical evidence can trace these people to Islam,also the outrage by Muslims that the FBI didn't treat the dead hijackers bodyparts according to Islamic rules for funerals shouldn't cloud the issue of assuming they were Muslims.

Innocent until proven guilty I say,and I know you agree because the Quran and Allah wouldn''t have it any other way.

Posted by: ala-sux at November 2, 2004 9:58 PM

The film Submission should be played everywhere in the world. We must show it everywhere, so Theo's ideas are never forgotten.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 2, 2004 10:09 PM

From the newspaers in Dutch saying the suspect sliced his throat with a butchers knife.

'Dader vluchtte niet eens'

MIJNTJE KLIPP en HANNELOES PEN

AMSTERDAM - Vanmorgen vroeg, rond tien voor half negen. Op de hoek van de Linnaeusstraat en de Tweede Oosterparkstraat in Amsterdam-Oost ziet een winkelier hoe een man een pistool trekt en vuurt op een ander, die later Theo van Gogh blijkt te zijn.

''Een man kwam aanfietsen. Een andere man vuurde. Er waren vijftien tot twintig schoten. Het slachtoffer viel. Toen pakte de dader een slagersmes en sneed nog eens zijn keel door.'' Verder wil de winkelier er niets over zeggen.

Posted by: Boeboe Achja at November 2, 2004 10:10 PM

I hope that this religiously motivated murder awakens the liberal Dutch. While living in Germany for many years and visiting Holland many times, the "live and let's live" Zeitgeist of the Dutch does not bode well to contain the insanity of the death cult of Islam. May this wake the Dutch up to take a closer look at the cancer living among them. The only way to fight and win is to rid the country - and the world - of this insane ideology called Islam!
Please, I plea that others who know and spread the very, very ugly truth about Islam are given police protection. These people are heros and must be acknowledged as saving Western Civilization!
jihan

Posted by: jihan at November 2, 2004 10:45 PM

Post #8

"Artists in Europe haven't had to worry about being murdered for their art since the Middle Ages. Now the Middle Ages have re-entered our lives thanks to the Stealth Invasion."

So well said Benelux, I have to steal that when trying to convincing other people of this scourge, hope you don't mind.

It's 12 midnight here in CT, GO BUSH!, it's tight,I hate the fact that my vote was against the norm, I used to be able to see those buildings...

Posted by: khamr at November 3, 2004 12:13 AM

There are 2 lessons we learnt from the death of Theo Van Gogh:-
1) This one we already know, that Islam is a threat to the free civilization.
2) This one I doubt if anyone knows yet- that in order to carry out a mission, one has to focus on the goal, AND ON THE GOAL ONLY.

Let's discuss the second point in little more detail; Theo's murderer was focused on one thing - to kill Theo - and he has succeeded. And now let's look at ourselves. Instead of focusing on - "to get the world rid of Islam" - we, on this chat room are busy comparing Christianity, Judaism, and Islam and throwing mud on other members when each of us know that in practice TODAY, the threat posed by Islam easily dwarfs any other. If that morrocon were an idiot like us, Theo would have been alive today.

My dear friends, let us focus back on the goal. And we need to begin working on it starting NOW. I'll begin-
We need to reach more people and let them know what we have learnt from our research on Islam and its history. There are only a handful of people in this forum and they are mostly educating/informing each other only. I doubt if many other people look at this website seriously, although I hope that is the case. How do you suppose so few people will tackle millions of muslims.
One thing that I have noticed in western societies is that people are very individualistic. They are effectively divided into individuals, and let me assure you that divided people are no match to serious threats such as the one posed by Islam. What I am saying is that we need to make more friends, keep in touch with them more often, teach them of the evils of Islam, and recommend them to make more friends and so on until every living being knows what we know about this curse on humanity called Islam.
I wanted to write more but I just remembered a friend who is still in dark about my research on Islam. I'll chat with you later since enlighting him is more important than keeping my ass stuck in front of this computer. I wish that morroccon was addicted to computer too.

Posted by: Dhimmi_Already <