Let's say Turkey joins the European Union.

What happens if Europeans start talking about Turkey's genocide of the Armenians.

Will Turkey order assassins to gun them down in the streets?

Turkey will try to impose their will on the rest of the EU about Turkey's dark past, maybe even preventing such discussion in universities and the media.

What will Europe do to Turkey's standover tactics?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 22, 2004 4:38 AM

Moderation hasn't helped Turkey to end the threat of Islamic extremism. Moderation in Islam is a pipe dream to lull us into complacency.

Posted by: epg at November 22, 2004 4:55 AM

Recently Dhimmiwatch posted an article about a muslim community in Greece protesting a television filming near a mosque. As usual with much news this site covers this action was not properly addressed in any of the world press, it was not even properly addressed in the Athenian press. The Athenian press was too quick to accept muslim claims first hand such as Eleytheroptyia running an article of a Christian theologian saying "nudity is not acceptable in any religion". This is taking at full value claims that the muslim Pomak community(Bulgarian speaking) made that they were filming naked in the mosque.

The best Greek language coverage of that incident was by a local paper out of Komotini called "O Xronos"(The Times). This newspaper revealed that the Turkish consul was present in Echinos before this incident even occured for the holiday of Bayram. Two wet women from the TV crew wanted protection from the rain under the shed. O Xronos says that 3000 fanatic muslims were involved not a mere 400 as cited by Reuters in the article Dhimmiwatch picked up. This is significant because from searching the web I found that Echinos only has 2500 residents. No doubt the Turkish consul was busy planning for this incident and should be commended for causing such a huge protest in such a small village over women being present under a shed near a mosque.

The Turkish newspaper Hurriyet's website has a poorly translated English section. One of their articles on this incident says that 2000 people were involved and has allegations about naked scenes. Another Hurriyet English article confirms that the Turkish consul was present. Btw, while browsing Hurriyet's website there were banner ads linking to a special U.S. Green Card section of the site, maybe the Turkish community in America can reproduce such actions stateside, do not be dismayed.

Posted by: Nikephoros_Phokas at November 22, 2004 6:08 AM

What happened in Smyrna is yet another case of Western powers assisting and abetting muslims even in their wars of jihad. Too bad this Frontpage article did not contain excerpts from Dobkin's work showing the callous policy of the Allied fleets(United States included) to not accept Christian refugees swimming to their ships so as not to offend Kemalists(some ships did take in refugees but the policy from above was not to accept them to not offend the resurgent Turks). The Allied Powers could have offered Greece a military loan or at least allowed them to operate unimpeded and finish the Kemalists off, but instead they allowed a huge human tragedy to develop for the perceived benefits to their foreign policy. The European Union bid of Turkey would also have been rendered irrelevant if Turkey was not given back in the Treaty of Lausanne the part of Thrace(Turkey's toehold in Europe) that the Greek military conquered from the Ottoman Empire. Constantinople of course was under an Allied mandate after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War and to the misfortune of the non-muslim inhabitants, the city was handed back the Gazis operating out of Ankara.

page-75-76

..."Kemal reacted by attacking British forces within the Dardanelles zone at Ismit. As was its habit when thorougly alarmed, the Supreme Council once again called on Venizelos. If he were permitted, the Greek premier assured the members, "he could gurantee that within a few weeks he could sweep the Kemalists from the zone of the Straits, both in Europe and in Asia, and remove from the minds of the Supreme Council all further anxiety regarding the Turkish Nationalist movement."

"In the face of opposition from their military advisers, the members of the Council once again bowed to Venizelos's optimism. Greek forces immediately moved north from the Smyrna region and, to almost everyone's astonishment routed the Turks at the first blow. Within weeks the Greeks occupied Busra, surronded and defeated the the Nationalists in Eastern Thrace, and occupied Adrianople. ...

...

"In the lull that followed, Kemal retreated to the fastness of Angora to lick his wounds, organize his forces, rout rebellion within his ranks, and dispose of the feeble assualts of the Sultan's armies. In the autumn, although he felt ready for the Greeks, they again routed him and advanced to the strategic railway lines connecting Constantinople with Konya. Lloyd George was able to announce to the House of Commons, "The Turks are broken beyond repair."

"The last turn of affairs proved too much for the French and the Italians. They insisted that the Greek advance be restrained, and enjoined the Supreme Council to order the Greek army to stop in its tracks. French, British and Italian forces rode out to confront the Greeks, halting them at a position far more precarious strategically, than the one that they had abandoned in order to rush to Allies' rescue in June. "At the eleventh hour Kemal and his recruits were thus rescued from destruction," Nicolson has noted. In the ensuing months the major Powers began one by one, to desert Greece in earnest.""

page 69

"In Smryna foreign businessmen, British included, were downcast about having Greeks in control of the area. The city was to all practical purposes still run by foreigners. Of the two great railway lines that branched north and east from the city, one was owned by the British, the other by the French. Power and lighting were in the British hands; the waterworks were Belgian. The quay of Smyrna and the railway lines were French concessions. The important licorice and tobacco interests were American, as were the oil depots standing at the north end of the shoreline that curved to face the city. The carpet, grain, mineral and dried fruit businesses were largely run by British firms. The agent of a foreign company expressed the consensus when he told Consul Horton: "In Greece proper you see few foreign companies working. Send away the Greeks from here and leave us to exploit the Turks.""

Excerpts from "Smyrna Affair" by Marjorie Housepian Dobkin. The book is a now out of print earlier edition of "Smyrna 1922: The Destruction of a City" by the same author.

A similar situation happened in Cyprus the US State Department did not try to stop the Turkish invasion(which they did not oppose) instead they tried to prevent a Greco-Turkish war(Greece responding Turkish invasion of Cyprus), depriving the poor Greek Cypriots of any significant aid from Greece. This is the historical trend established with the Allied impediments to the Greek Fourth War of Liberation in the Asia Minor campaign, but the Allied Powers did not impede the Kemalists, they assisted them.

Posted by: Nikephoros_Phokas at November 22, 2004 7:07 AM

1) We shall find that in the past, if we are willing to look carefully, every nation or ethnic group has committed crimes versus other nations or ethnic groups. Germany is a prominent EU member, but no one has forgotten the atrocities committed by Germans in Europe only 60 years ago. A century ago the British "invented" concentration camps in South Africa, while in America the last indian tribes were decimated. Two centuries ago the French invaded much of Europe.... etc, etc. I do not think we should hold the Turks, Germans, British, Americans, French etc... living today responsible for crimes their (grand-grand-grand)parents committed.
2) No religion is free of oppression and decimation of non-believers. The German soldiers had "Gott mit uns" (God with us) on their belt, the pope himself blessed the crusades, etc. Thus, it is useless to put one religion above the other because of a better record in not killing non-believers.

Hence, if we want to make progress, we have to admit that the criteria of behaviour in the past (let us say more than half a century ago) or religion are pretty much useless to judge a nation as it is today. We should look at present day behaviour, intentions and acts. Considering this, I see no problem for Turkey entering the EU.

TVE

Posted by: tve at November 22, 2004 7:30 AM

TVE, I do see a problem.

The difference between Germany and Turkey is that Germany has apologized for it's past genocide of Jews, while Turkey has not.

You can't change the past, but you can at least acknowledge and apologize for past sins.

Just as the Eastern European countries with their almost muslim free populations have joined the EU, Turkey promises to undermine that with it's 70 million strong population.

If they can't apologize for the Armenian genocide now, will they allow other EU countries to even bring it up?

Will EU journalists who bring up the Armenian genocide be assassinated in the streets like poor Theo Van Gogh?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 22, 2004 7:42 AM

Tve, from his arguments is likely to be a Turk. Comparing Turkey to Germany is unfair for both Turkey and Germany; it is insulting to Germany and it is holding Turkey to standards too high for it meet. Germany in Nuremberg was punished by the victorious WWII Allies. After WWI the Allies rewarded the modern Turkey that was created out of the Ottoman Empire for its crimes during the Armenian genocide and allowed the slaughter to continue to Smyrna as the article mentioned if you would have read it. Genocide is a crime which entails legal implications. Germany was legally punished and has repented, not Turkey, stop trying to shift blame, because you are not even good at it.

"In an annoucement from the Greek Minister of Foreign Affairs, during 1/30/1990 in which he stressed: Greece meet its obligations(for the Treaty of Lausanne), contrary to Turkey, it is easily revealed in the following statement: "In Greek Thrace today 120,000 muslims live who are allocated 244 schools and roughly 305 places of worship. Compared to Turkey, where out of 146,000 Greeks of Istanbul, there have not even remained 5,000."

excerpt from page 240 of "Dar el
Harb: Cyprus-Aegean-Thrace"(This is a Greek language work) by Andrea N. Athanasiou

If Turkey is in the European Union then the only model that can be followed is for Europe's non-muslims is to repeat the pattern of Turkey's fleeting non-muslim communities, because Turkey and the muslims in Europe show little sign of changing.

Posted by: Nikephoros_Phokas at November 22, 2004 8:25 AM

TVE, I do see a problem.

The difference between Germany and Turkey is that Germany has apologized for it's past genocide of Jews, while Turkey has not.

Posted by: Voltaire

Germany has done more than just merely apologize. Their National Socialist leaders were tried and many of them hanged for their crimes. The ideology of that period is now outlawed and scorned. The German government has provided vast sums of money to the nation of Israel as compensation. The list goes on.

Turkey has done none of these things. Their mild constraint on the ideology that led to these problems (Islam) has not been enough.

Posted by: Sheik Canuck (swt) at November 22, 2004 9:04 AM

TVE- An additional point to consider. Germany, Britain, and even American have committed acts IN SPITE OF their Christian religious backgrounds, not in the name of Islam as Muslims freely and proudly admit they do in furtherance of the aims and goals of Islam.

Turkey will never admit to the Armenian Genocide because Armenians, as non-Muslims, are their natural victims, and thus in the eyes of Muslims there was no crime and thus no genocide to which to admit or apologize.

Posted by: epg at November 22, 2004 9:49 AM

There are five stages of genocide:

1) Identification

2) Vilification

3) Separation

4) Extermination

5) Denial

The Turkish goverment is still in denial despite all the overwhelming evidence, so it is still acting out the genocide against the Armenians.

Not only does it deny it, but will give a 10-year sentence to anyone who calls it genocide.

Recently the government in Argentina issued thousands of booklets about the Armenian genocide for its schools.

We should follow suit.

In fact the history of Turkey's destructive and malevolent invasion of Europe should be taught in all EU schools.

History repeats itself

Posted by: Elephant at November 22, 2004 10:13 AM

Turkey must give a juridical status to Catholic Church, must re-open the orthodox seminary and allow the opening of the catholic, catholic colleges and hospitals like orthodox and the free evangelization to muslims, not being imprisoned like an italian priest for baptyzing a man of 26 years, and they have to apologize and give money to Armenia for his yihad against christians, they must desocuppy Cyprus, in sum up a lot of things for joining to EU, geeetings

Posted by: Franze at November 22, 2004 11:13 AM

Nikephoros -

Many thanks for posting these interesting extracts. Many people in the west are ignorant of the Turkish atrocities against Greeks and Armenians etc and such accounts should be circulated as widely as possible.

Europeans must be made aware what their fate is likely to be if the Turkish Trojan Horse is welcomed into Europe. There are too many idiot EUnuchs who place more importance on 'economic growth' than on the safety and future of EU citizens. If we have to have more workers in the west, let's recruit them from sympathetic cultures like Greece and the recent EU entrants.

In any case, Turkey's entry into the EU should not even be given serious consideration until the Turks a) give apologies and reparations to the surviving Armenians b) return property stolen from Greek Cypriots, and c) give a full accounting - and compensation - for the Greek Cypriots 'missing' (murdered) since the Turkish invasion. There's probably more essentials to add to this list too.

Franze -

Good points! Agree with you completely.

Posted by: Benelux at November 22, 2004 11:51 AM

More on the ethnic cleansing of Greeks that coincided with the Armenian Genocide:

http://www.gomidas.org/forum/af4kurds.htm

"The destruction of the Ottoman Greeks was implemented after 1918, when Greece had entered World War I. The destruction of Greeks started with the genocide against the Pontic Greeks on the Black Sea, then the murder and forced exodus of the remaining Greeks in Asia Minor. Well over two million Greeks were "ethnically cleansed" from their ancestral homelands between 1918 and 1923. The city of Smyrna was torched to force the exodus of its large Greek population. The common denominator in these Armenian, Greek, and (later) Kurdish cases was the intention to create an exclusively "Turkish" state with no minority populations."

http://www.gomidas.org/forum/af4kurds.htm

Posted by: Mike at November 22, 2004 2:31 PM

A chilling addendum to Elephant's comments:

Adolf Hitler, while persuading his associates that a Jewish holocaust would be tolerated by the world, rightfully noted that an entire nation's massacre was watched with indifferent silence in the early 1900's:
" Who after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

http://www.april24.info/

More links to websites re. the Armenian Genocide:

http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Countries/Armenia/Arts_and_Humanities/Humanities/History/By_Time_Period/20th_Century/Armenian_Genocide/

Posted by: Mike at November 22, 2004 3:02 PM

The ideology of National Socialism, and the uncritical acceptance of the Fuhrer Prinzip, which greatly helped Hitler in pushing Germany towards the Holocaust, are utterly discredited; find one 'scholar' in a European university who argues Aryan superiority or any Nazi doctrine. National Socialism is dead, as it should be; it led to disaster and its dogma run against the grain of the dominant principles of Enlightenment and Judeo-Christian thought.

The Armenian genocide, on the other hand, is entirely consistent with the dominant themes of dehumanization of unbelievers, and dominance of Islamic ideology through da'wa and jihad in the Qu'ran and hadiths; and Islam today is flourishing. The ideological foundation for the brutality in Turkish history is alive, that is the difference. And that ideology, that belief system, Islam, flourishes in Muslim communities in Europe, Turkey, and throughout the so-called 'Muslim world'.

TVE should read the Qu'ran, the hadiths, the sira; then, my friend, return to this forum and argue that we should forget about the Islamic past and allow 70 million Muslims into the EU; tell us how these irrelevant texts reveal nothing about the brutality of Islamic history, the violence and mass murder that we are just beginning to witness in Madrid, Bali, Belsan, New York, Morroco, Istanbul, Moscow, Southern Thailand, Bangladesh, Nigeria, etc. etc., a past that will become your future, my friend, if you allow it.

Posted by: JTF at November 22, 2004 5:23 PM

An article by Ralph Peters in the NRO is worth reading

Islam sets high standards for the daily behavior of its adherents — but all too often the Koran's calls for fairness, charity and common decency are rejected in favor of social strictures misinterpreted by bitter old men and fanatics. The oppression of women, terrorism and the police states of the Middle East were not part of the Prophet Mohammed's vision.

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/34732.htm

I wonder i Ralph actually believes this stuff or is just being hopeful.

Posted by: DP111 at November 22, 2004 5:42 PM

Qu'ran, 5:39: "As for the man or woman who is guilty of theft, cut off their hands to punish them for their crimes. That is the punishment enjoined by God."

4:90: "They who would have you disbelieve as they themselves have disbelieved, so that you may be all alike. Do not befriend them until they have fled their homes for the cause of God. If they desert you, seize them and put them to death whereever you find them."

High standards indeed...

By the way, in addition to these 'high standards of behavior', the Qu'ran also tacitly enjoins upon believers possession of very sharp cutting tools and a thick skin when it comes to the sight of blood. Believers must not wince if they are to do Allah's bidding!

Posted by: JTF at November 22, 2004 8:09 PM

Posted by Voltaire (first post)

Those of us who mention it over here, are criticized in turn. I am in a course on the Ottoman Empire right now, and the bit in the book is not helpful. Only the 3rd one is mentioned, and no details are given. I looked at the Modern Turkey book, and the author there said something like 1.5mill were killed, but this isn't bad because it was war.

Nike (victory)

nikethes meta to onoma sou (you were made victorious with your name). I hope the passive is right, anyway, you know what I mean. Thanks for posting those excerpts. I didn't know that book existed.

Posted by: Ibn Rushd at November 22, 2004 10:16 PM

Nikephoras: I have a question: in Greece, is it legal to leave the Eastern Orthodox Church to become an Evangelical, or to proselytize among the Eastern Orthodox? In very recent times, these things were illegal, and punished by the authorities. There was even some talk a number of years ago in New York State about imitating the Greek anti-proselytism law (dropped because many observed that it would be constitutionally suspect under the First Amendment).

I admit Turkey has a rotten record. The one bright spot was in the 1980's, when the Turkish Supreme Court ruled in favor of a group of former Muslims who wished to be re-identified as Christians after becoming Evangelicals while guest workers in Germany. However, Turkey seems to have backpedaled a lot on this one.

Perhaps one of the largest questions I have about Islam is that its followers do no seem capable of looking at things like the ethno-religious cleansing of Turkey and admitting "we were wrong." However, there are a lot of more subtle things going on in a lot of other countries. China, for instance, sees the baptism of anyone under the age of 18 (Nikephoras, are you Orthodox?) as "forcing someone to believe in religion", and hands out sentences of ten years in prison to anyone who gives religious instruction to a minor. Yet the EU does not seem in too great a hurry to condemn China for such behavior.

Posted by: Kepha1 at November 23, 2004 4:04 AM

"...sparring partner..."?

That guy (and the other muslim apologists) is your sparring partner like Barney Fife would spar with Mike Tyson.

You do like Harry Truman... someone called out to him, "Give'e, hell, Harry!" He said, "I don't give them hell. I give them the truth and they thinks its hell."

Posted by: kj at November 23, 2004 2:05 PM

THINK its hell, that is.

Posted by: kj at November 23, 2004 2:05 PM