OT:

I've posted about this before,but since we are getting a steady influx of new "regulars" it seemed like a good time to repeat it.

SusanB and I have compiled a list of JW/DWers who wish to make their e-mail addresses available for contact with other JW/Dwers. This is how it works: if someone wishes to have interpersonal contact with another member (exchange personal e-mails), they contact SusanB who will then request authorization from the other party for his/her e-mail address to be shared on a one-time basis, only with the individual requesting contact. No e-mail addresses will be given out without authorization of the parties involved. Sometimes individuals prefer to network offsite and this provides an opportunity to correspond privately and perhaps in greater depth than would be appropriate posted at JW/DW.

If you would like to be included in our database, please e-mail SusanB at susan_b356@yahoo.com. Please don't forget to include your JW/DW screenname so that we know who you are.

CGW

Posted by: CGW at November 25, 2004 8:09 AM

There you have it.

The imam wishes to talk to the minister about intergration, but Islam prohibits contact with women outside the immediate family.

How can you have intergration if muslims are prohibited contact with women outside the immediate family?

Posted by: Voltaire at November 25, 2004 8:19 AM

Could some-one please tell me how Islam is supposed to be spiritual, when muslims wish for their enemies to die?

The only reason why he doesn't want a muslim to do it, is so that more mosques don't get burned to the ground.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 25, 2004 8:26 AM

Thanks CGW, and very timely too.

I'm beginning to think that when we are talking about what we plan to do, we should keep it to ourselves, and just get in contact with Susan and tell her whatever plans we have against the muslim menace.

Remember muslims read these boards too, so don't be so open about any ideas that you have to combat the Jihad which is taking place.

Just think of those ads from World War 2, telling people not to talk.

Posted by: Voltaire at November 25, 2004 8:37 AM

I do not approve of the remarks of Mr van der Ven, especially in view of the present tense atmosphere. Nevertheless, you may want to know that he explained his comments by comparing them to people who said that they wish Osama Bin Laden dead. PS I know that Osama Bin Laden is not Geert Wilders.

TvE

Posted by: tve at November 25, 2004 8:59 AM

It is taking a turn for the worse. Did you see the BBC news today on this? They were harping more on the 'hate' crime against Muslim community. And not to be ever blamed of portraying BBC as fair, they also termed the movie 'Submission' as a portrayal of Muslim women in poor light.

The Muslims, being very archaic in their outlook, look at women as a property. So, while it is not allowed for a Muslim woman to elect a partner outside Islam it is alright for men to do.

No wonder they keep the women subjugated.

I think there is no need to discuss about the Islam as a retrogressive, abusive, violent religion. It is more or less settled. We need to know how this menace is going to be fought and what is going to be the plan of action !

Posted by: Seculartalk at November 25, 2004 9:39 AM

"It is too crazy for words," says Rita Verdonk. Perhaps the Dutch population -- and the rest of the peoples of Europe -- should, without further ado, study Qur'an and hadith and sira (can't a month be taken out for such study -- given that the entire future of the entire Western civilisation might hang in the balance? Is a month too much to take out of one's busy summer schedule of working on your collective tan?). Then ask what exactly is "too crazy for words" and too dangerous to permit in one's midst, and act accordingly, promptly jettisoning all that Edward-Steichen-Family-of-Man stuff, that has thrown off tentacles and entangled the entire Western world, Laocoon-like, in some mortal coils indeed.

Posted by: Hugh at November 25, 2004 9:46 AM

That Abdul-Jabbar van de Ven also called Holland, his own country, a cancer and was disgusted by underwear commercials etc. Apparently he converted when he was 14 and his parents thought it was just some teenage phase that would pass and when they realised it was serious found out that it was too late to do anything about it. I actually saw the interview on Dutch television. I cannot understand how people like van de Ven, Cat Stevens et al. can read the Quran and become so enthralled that they consider their own culture a cancer. Is that their idea of rebellion? Why don't they become anti-globalists, environmentalists or Buddhists so they can at least rebel in a constructive fashion? Islam is just pure negative, anti-Jew, anti-polytheist, anti-homosexual, anti-western, anti-woman etc. etc. etc. I consider myself pretty tolerant but converts like the above are, in my opinion, the worst traitors/collaborators possible. Their adherence to a religion like islam simply goes against the grain of European/Western culture.

Posted by: Arhopala at November 25, 2004 10:09 AM

TvE said: "I do not approve of the remarks of Mr van der Ven, especially in view of the present tense atmosphere."

ted's response: Glad to know you do not approve.

TvE said: "Nevertheless, you may want to know that he explained his comments by comparing them to people who said that they wish Osama Bin Laden dead."

ted's response: What kind of explanation is this? Bin Laden is involved in a war to the death. Thus, people who wish him dead are also involved in that very same war on the opposing side. Is van der Ven implying through his explanation that he is at war with Wilders? Seems like that is the correct interpretation of his implication. Thus, this "explanation" only reinforces van der Ven's original comment.

Posted by: ted at November 25, 2004 10:14 AM

Yes, it's almost surreal. Like some sort of weird Fellini movie or something. You just can't believe people actually say and do these things, but that is the essence of Islam. It's weird, surreal, bizarre, insane, abnormal, sick and evil. I'm not shocked that they would say such things, re being glad that Van Gogh was murdered or wishing for someone else to die. I am shocked, however, that they would feel so confident to say such vile things publicly and so openly. The gall, the cheek, the arrogance. Yet if someone, like Wilders or the average joe on the street voiced a similar opinion, like he wished some Muslim would drop dead, you'd never hear the end of it. Shock, horror! Bigot! Racist! Hatemonger! Yet Muslims can do all manner of despicable things and they blithely go around thinking nothing of it. I'm glad they feel such confidence to voice what's in their shrivelled, putrifying, black hearts, because it's a necessary wake up call to all those naive people who think uncontrolled Muslim migration into their countries is some sort of nirvana.

Posted by: feralee at November 25, 2004 10:27 AM

Beware!

TVE is a troll, or a Muslim.

Posted by: Joel Català at November 25, 2004 10:36 AM

Heh. A troll or a Muslim? Did you read the PS? The say the were able to distinguish the two thereby discrediting the excuse....

This was the key sentence for me;

"It seems as if integration for Minister Verdonk is something that should lead to people outside of Islam saying how Muslims should practise Islam," he said.....

The implication is that if Islam requires one to chop off your head because you are guilty of violating some law of Sharia, and one attempts to stop such an act, you're "saying how Muslims should practise Islam".

Enough with the word games and logical traps. If you wish to practice Islam in such a manner you are free to do so in your own land barring human rights violations. When you are in anothers land you must practice your religion within the framework of your hosts laws.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Not in letter, but in spirit. I believe the original intent of that phrase was to emphasize the need to not impose your values upon the Romans as you are their guest. Not as it is taken today to mean one should adopt all Roman customs, ways, and religion.

It would be interesting to compare Christians in Rome with Muslims in the Netherlands. Could the Christians in Rome have been making the same types of statements? We know what the Roman response was.

These muslims practicing this radical form of Islam need a firm response to their position. It seems one is hard pressed to not find this radicalism everywhere within Islam. Let us not forget our own history, especially in a Catholic light. Can you say Inquisition? Both were and are equally wrong.

That is the past, this is the here and now. These radicals must be dealt with now. Unfortunately it seems only 51% of Americans and a couple of Dutch, and some of the coalition of the Willing think so.

Awareness is our greatest weapon. FWIW

Posted by: Khepri at November 25, 2004 11:08 AM

This is the 21st Century and yet we have these barbarians amongst us who talk and act as though it were 900 AD. If it weren't so awfully real this would make a great science fiction series - zombies from the Dark Ages preaching death and damnation in the modern world. How can the so-called "progressive Left" side with these superstitious, ignorant primitives ?

Posted by: Son Of Albion at November 25, 2004 11:25 AM

The "progressive Left" has no problem whatsoever with destroying and sacrificing millions if it is percieved to get them closer to achieving their delusional "vision of the annoited".
Any means are justified by the end.

They will also align themselves with a bitter rival, if they think it will serve their purposes-- as in the Nazi/ Communist alliance that helped Hitler come to power. It was an astounding price to pay, but after WW2 the Communists did end up much, much stronger, and for 40 years the outcome of the Cold-war was in doubt.
The Islamo-fascist threat is multiplied by 1000 times because of past and present Leftism.

Posted by: kentim at November 25, 2004 1:08 PM

Dutch Shocked as Muslim Approves of van Gogh Murder
The world is shocked when two planes hit the World Trade Center
The world isshocked when terrorists murdered school children in Russia
The world is shocked at the be-headings in Iraq
The world is shocked at many other acts of terrorism and murder - it has gone on and on without any decisive action taken by any country or government.

Robert And Hugh have put their finger right on the problem. For some reason people in governments are so involved in their own agenda of PC immigration and PC integration they haven’t taken the time to study the cult/doctrine of Islam/Muslims. If they had done so, they would have known who is responsible and whey a long time ago.

It should be a requirement for all people in government to take a course on the Islamic/Muslim doctrine and how it leads to terrorists and murderers - - not allowing this doctrine to be introduced into the schools.

Posted by: THSIMJ at November 25, 2004 1:46 PM

Lets hope the Dutch are shocked enough to slam the door shut on further spreading of this cancer
that will destroy any democracy it touches.

The hijackers put the SLAM in Islam and the Dutch need to get the MAD out of MuhamMAD's
crusade for global domination by sharia-Law.

NO ISLAM - KNOW A FREE HOLLAND

Posted by: ala-sux at November 25, 2004 5:13 PM

TvE

I wish Allah would kill all of his demented believers. Is that an acceptible Islamic prayer? With the interpretation of 'who' the "demented" are left to Allah's will? Wishing people (-who are not international terrorist murderers, but mayors of peaceful European cities) dead is a sure sign of a lunatic. Wishing them dead in the name of God is the sign of a religious lunatic. Defending such loose-lipped lunatics is the sure sign of an accomplice, TvE. Osama Bin Laden send a group of mass-murderers to slaughter non-combatants, and, simultaneously, about a hundred soldiers in Washington, D.C.. If he and his henchmen had only targeted the Pentagon, it could have conceivably been viewed as a 'justifiable' 'act of war'. And, in response, the U.S. would have done just what it did in the current scenario: destroy the terror state which was enabling Al-Qaeda to flourish. And hunt down all of its assassins, mullahs and murderous maniacs. TvE doesn't even bother to posit such a rationale, but merely excuses the mouthings of a madman by saying that 'others have said kill someone else', and forgetting to mention that these 'others' were looking at 3,000 dead neighbors- in N.Y.C., D.C. and Pennsylvania- when they said: "Osama must die.". Who was Geert Wilders killing? No one. In fact, he is the one threatened with death. For being outraged that his fellow Amsterdammer was slaughtered on the streets. Personally, I wish the former Dutchman, now Muslim, van der Ven, would journey to Mecca and end up happily trampled underfoot -for the greater glory of Allah- during one of their perennial crowd panic stampedes after a ritual stoning of the pillar of Satan. But, I also wouldn't mind if he came to his senses, repented his homocidal venality, begged the Dutch people for forgiveness, and committed ritual hara kiri with one of the knives used to murder Theo Van Gogh. One can dream...

Posted by: profitsbeard at November 25, 2004 10:04 PM

I have one comment only concerning this story:

Why are the Dutch 'shocked'?

Have they been asleep for the past few years?

Posted by: DianaC at November 25, 2004 11:35 PM

Because of the most basic tenets of their ideology, Muslims do not, can not, assimilate. They can only interleave with non-Muslim societies. That is why they self-organize into enclaves which when juxtaposed in fair examination with their host society, always appear as anachronistic, illiterate, culturally barren and poverty ridden tribal subcultures. Even when Jewish and Christian communities formed large segments of Islamic societies at the various peaks of the Islamic conquests, the Muslims did not assimilate the cultural artifacts of those dhimmi communities, but instead merely administered the rule over the dhimmis who made most of the technological contributions to the empire.

Since the defeat of the Ottoman empire in World War I, the West has persistently deluded itself into believing that after more than 13 centuries of failure to assimilate in the manner of the Greco-Roman tradition, the "modern" Muslim population would be capable of doing what all of their tribal ancestors failed to do and that they could cross the ideological chasm with the more advanced non-Muslim civilizations.

It is time to end the grand social experiment. It is time for the Muslim community to demonstrate that they have something meaningful to contribute to the non-Muslim societies in which they have failed so far to assimilate. Failing that, the non-Muslim societies really do not have any other choice than to rid themselves of the Muslims. It would be better for all if the Muslims could be persuaded to depart for the desert sheikdoms of their ancestors where they would be free to live in their 7th century paradise on earth so long as they are not a menace to their non-Muslim neighbors. If they cannot be persuaded with words, then they will be persuaded by force of arms. That is just the way we do things like this here in the non-Muslim world. We have had just over 26 centuries to practice this sort of thing versus the 13 centuries the Muslims have tried to get it right.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at November 26, 2004 1:47 AM

Darul- Islam is a principle that aims at converting the entire world into Islam before peace can be established.

I will repeat this till someone responds. There is enough said about the evils of Islam and it is accepted. What is to be done ?

The action should be political to deny entry to people from Muslim countries until the country itself renounces Islam as the Country's religion, embraces Democracy, allows all religions to be practiced, reject Sharia, female circumcision, polygamy, talaq, Darul-Islam, Dhimmi and other abhorrent features of Islam. (Practically every page in Koran and hadith etc)

As the Muslim man refuses to shake hands with a woman, because it is against their religion, why can not we, the democracy loving folks, love our freedom and say it is against our beliefs and values to have some one amongst us, whose views not only go against our core values but are destroying it ?

Posted by: Seculartalk at November 26, 2004 11:01 AM

They will not integrate, they can not assimilate, they have nothing to give in order to make our world a better place. On the contrary, they use our welfare system, they have the highest crime rate and generally, wherever Muslims are there is conflict, tension, war, murder and mayhem. 1350 years we have fought to keep the Islamic hordes out of Europe, now for 30 years we've let our guard down and now we have massive infiltration = confrontation...

When are we starting our 24 hour Jihad watch news channel? People everywhere are sick of PC and 10 second soundbites from CNN and BBC! Let's get real and make it happen!

Posted by: Terminator at November 27, 2004 12:05 AM

"The boy from Veghel" is an idiot, craving attention, his "Algerian teacher" may very well be another Takfir fascist looking for vulnerable Dutch youngsters to indocrinate and recruit for their Jihad (just like Mohammed B.)

Well, it's been a while, the absence of (known) religious murders in the Netherlands, before Theo the "Martyrs of Gorcum", executed in 1572, were the last....

Posted by: van Dutch at November 29, 2004 9:22 AM