Bruce Tefft's quoted remarks are taken from Ibn Warraq. Therefore he should thank Ibn Warraq, and suggest that CAIR should of course demand that he, Ibn Warraq, "apologize for Islamophobia." And then Ibn Warraq will not only receive the widespread attention he deserves, but will give CAIR far more than they bargained for in two courts -- the other being the court of public opinion. And along with Ibn Warraq, other defectors from the belief-system of Islam may get the attention, respect, and funding they deserve. For they can tell, like no one else, what it is like to be born into, and grow up within, Muslim societies, and then to have consciousness, and consience, develop so as to cause them to renounce bravely -- for to give up Islam requires bravery, as apostasy is treated as the act of a traitor, a deserter from the Army of Islam.

But Ibn Warraq, and Ali Sina, and Azam Kamguian, and Irfan Khawaja, can articulately and forcefully and utterly convincingly explain themselves, and explain what Islam is all about. CAIR will wish it had never gone to court.

Posted by: Hugh at December 11, 2004 4:31 PM

There is nothing irrational or pathological in Tefft's remarks. CAIR uses a devious, fallacious, and blantantly deceptive debating trick that aims to silence an opponent and shift the burden of proof. And, of course, it is all done with lies, the use of stereotypes, and false generalizations, e.g. anyone who links terrorism to Islam proper is 'Islamophobic' and (implied) the Simon Wesenthal Center is 'Islamophobic'.

This kind of move can only be describe as religious motivated warfare in public debate. A dishonest attempt to discredit the 'Jew' Simon Wesenthal Center and shift public focus away from the real problem: the Qur'an, Hadiths and Sira. This in itself qualifies as 'Jihad' in my book; a fight to defend the faith at all costs.

But just for fun let's say Mr. Tefft did exhibit some kind of pathological condition. Let's say Mr. Tefft got cold sweats everytime he sees a woman in a buhrka. Is he afflicted with 'Islamophobia'?

What is this pathology? How is it defined? What are the personality traits, opinions, feelings or other relevant information defining this pathology. And if it is a real, definable pathology, there should be some history of it that one can characterize, document, and research with empirical methods (one can certainly do this in the case of anti-Semitism).

So what is pathology of 'Islamophobia'?

I don't know myself. But how about another notion condition. Let's call it 'Islamoviolentia'. Let's define it: Islamoviolentia is a strong tendency to violence motivated by irrational, blind belief in the literal truth of the Qur'an, Sunnah (let's just take that) and Sira. OK, let's characterize the kind of violence we are talking about. Well, the kind of violence described in the Qur'an, beheadings, indiscriminate mass killing of civilians, beating wifes, abusing nonbelievers in a varieity of ways, that sort of thing. How about a documented history? Let's see how about just recent history: Madrid, New York, Beslan, Iraq (many, many instances: how about the children with candy and the UN mission [Oh, yes, but that's right, the Jews did that one. No wonder we must put the Simon Wesenthal Center on the spot. Right.], Bali, Morroco, Istanbul, Luxor, Nigeria...I could go on and on, of course, but my fingers are getting tired.) And let's not forget the brutality of Islamic history; study of this condition will require an intense interdisciplinary effort.

There is lots of evidence that this condition exists. How about some grants from the American Psychological Association to study it? How about a UN commission? How about a think-tank in Washington? How about a conference in Europe?

Posted by: JTF at December 11, 2004 5:21 PM

Here's a link below for the whole text of a posting by CAIR Canada,please not that CAIR supports
the holocaust-denier Ernst Zundel and portray him as a victim because he's German.
CAIR and the noted Muhammed Elamasry from the http://www.canadianislamiccongress.org/ that
backed murdering Israelis over 18,are the same two Islamic groups DEMANDING Shariah-Law for all Muslims in Canada.
BTW,all the persons detained are non-Citizens and lied about their past or had forged documents,but CAIR has never really bothered about
trivial things like FACTS when playing "The Victim".

http://www.caircan.ca/itn_more.php?id=1289_0_2_0_C

Riad Saloojee, Executive Director of the Canadian Council on American-Islamic Relations,spoke of the fear that the detentions have evoked in the Arab and Muslim communities: “For many Muslims and Arabs, security certificates embody an arbitrary and non-transparent legal process that they never expected to find in a democratic country they now call home,” said Saloojee. “Muslims and Arabs have unfortunately been the most common casualties under this deeply flawed process.”
Today’s day of action against secret trials sees events and actions happening in Ottawa, Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal and Halifax,among other cities.
The Muslim men being held are: Hassan Almrei, Syrian, held since October 20, 2001; Adil Charkaoui, Moroccan, held since May, 2003; Mohamed Harkat, Algerian, held since December 10, 2002; Mahmoud Jaballah, Egyptian, held for 9 months in 1999, cleared of allegations, held again since August 2001; Mohammad Mahjoub, Egyptian, held since June, 2000. A sixth man, Ernst Zundel, a German, has been held since February 2003.

More information on the Muslim detainees: http://www.zerra.net/freemohamed

Do Muslims really believe we're that stupid and can't see throuh their lies and scams,not a very good way for them to promote Islam as being abpout peace and tolerance.

Posted by: ala-sux at December 11, 2004 7:37 PM

All right. I'm taking a deep breath. Here I ago:

"I AM AN ISLAMOPHOBE."

Sort of. There, I feel better.

I hate islam. It's "good parts" (charity, "clean living," etc.) are unoriginal, to be found in other major religions.

It's continued advocacy of corporal punishment (amputation, stoning, flogging, death, etc.) on earth (not just the cruelty of the afterlife) for human frailties, apostasy, truth-telling, etc. are its own distinct abomination.

I feel sorry for muslims, especially the ones trapped in islam who can't or don't know how to get out.

As pissed off as I get whenever I see a someone wrapped up in a black bedsheet--enjoying the freedoms my grandfather fought for--, I have to remind myself that sometimes, a simple gesture of kindness on my behalf may be enough to refute the lies about non-muslims they've been fed.

I have to check "faithfreedom.org" periodically to remind myself that--despite all the anger I may spew here--my words and deeds are what may make a difference and free one of these lost souls.

Yes, islam is what generates my phobia.

Posted by: 3812Michelle at December 11, 2004 8:11 PM

We call on the Simon Wiesenthal Center to condemn these Islamophobic remarks in the strongest possible terms.

Characterizing Islam and its revealed text as promoting terrorism can only lead to increased anti-Muslim prejudice and intolerance.

Apparently the folks at CAIR are publicly admitting that they do not read their own book.

Posted by: Hulegu Khan at December 11, 2004 8:18 PM

yes the Simon wiesenthal has dared linked Islam to terrorism.
God forbid it should aslo complain about the holocaust denial and blood libel accusations of those linked to C.A.I.R.
But of course we are all infidels and have no right to criticise the Koran or the statements made by the SUPERIOR muslim clerics and jihad supporters.
We must keep quiet and observe our place as dhimmies like the eastern christians in the lands of the UMMa.
We must not address or criticise the superiority of Islam and even more - show our inferiority by praising them when they attack us verbally or otherwise.
This to a world that as contributed NOTHING to the emancipation of the Human condition for 1500 years. Indeed it has done nothing but oppress the human soul and enslave it and like an army of soldier ants stolen what it can from the civilisations it has conquered and called the booty its own.
The Simon Wiesemthal should follow through and NOT retreat, using the wealth of intelligent muslim apostates to support it. I.m sure many would be only too willing to help.

Posted by: george at December 11, 2004 10:08 PM

I know not what course others may take, but as for me, I am not an "Islamophobe"--that is, I do not fear Islam, I despise it. It is the ideology that appeals to the primitive, the brute, the one who wallows in bloodletting, women-beating, enslaving, robbery, subjugation of all who do not think as he does, and pretends that this comes from a god via an angel and an Arab illiterate.

No, I do not suffer from "Islamophobia." I am, however, anti-Islam. I do not hate Muslims, nor do I despise Muslims--I despise the ideology that they follow, that keeps them from rising above the qualities enumerated in the foregoing paragraph. I do not feel sorry for Muslims, because pity is a weakness, and one cannot face those that seek to either destroy or subjugate one with compassion.

Islamophobia is fearing "submission." I do not fear it. I will not submit to those who demand my submission. Above all, I value freedom, and Islam is the antithesis of freedom. Freedom--liberty--is what makes life worth living. As I opened with them, so I will close with--but only an echo of--the words of Patrick Henry. I choose liberty above death. When faced with death or submission, my choice is clear. I will extract as dear a price as possible for my choice.

Posted by: unicorns62000 at December 11, 2004 11:33 PM

Ala sux

Any idea why the canadian gov is dragging its feet over the extradition demand from germany ?
IN the meantime the awful nazi wife Rimlamd is still poisoning the net with her infamies.

Posted by: george at December 12, 2004 12:53 AM

I sent a note of support to SWC last night after seeing this on lgf and received the following almost immediately in return from Dr. Adler. Please do the same:

Dear xxxx;
Below is the response I sent out. I thank you for your comments.
Yours truly,
Leo Adler

Dear Dr. Al-Delaimy;
Your letter has been forwarded to me, since I am the Director of National Affairs for Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies.

You may or may not be aware that the topic for the evening was "Inside the Mind of the Jihadist". The principle members of the panel were in the police and security field and there were numerous such officials in the audience. The object of the evening was to provide a backgrounder to those who have to deal with terrorists about how and why these people do what they do.

I say this because context is important.

The round table discussion was not ever intended to in any way denigrate Muslims or their religion. Rather, Mr. Tefft's comments were meant to show how Islam is abused by terrorists who sought to justify and support what they do through their quoting of the Qu'ran. This was made clear to all present, though the media, being the media, may have made it seem different.

I thank you for your letter and want to reassure you that our Center would always speak out against anyone who wishes to spread intolerance.

Yours truly,
Leo Adler
Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies
Leo Adler
Director of National Affairs
adler@pathcom.com
5075 Yonge Street,
Suite 902,
Toronto, Ontario
M2N 6C6
Canada
tel: 416-864-9735 x28
fax: 416-864-1083
mobile: 647-297-1745
www.wiesenthal.com

Posted by: bj at December 12, 2004 9:58 AM

So I said, "Hey, Ali, I didn't know you play piano. Pull the tarp off and makes some tunes."

Ali said,"That's not a piano. that's my mother."

Posted by: sonofwalker at December 12, 2004 12:49 PM

george:

Our insane Refugee laws forbid deporting person that may suffer harm or death if returned to the place of origin.
Zundel has a lawyer that knows how to milk the system and exhaust all the appeals in hope of finding a Judge or refugee members that rule in Zundels favour to let him stay in Canada.
What CAIR fails to clarify about Zundel is that he was a landed-immigrant in Canada for about 40 years and never applied for citizenship,also Zundel had a not-so-stellar past with out Hate-Laws that protect minorities from people inciting violence or promoting a negative bias that's unfounded.
Zundel left Canada for the USA to shore-up the Arian skin-head groups with speeches and literature,sadly,when Zundel was given the boot from America his POE (point of entry) for exiting was a Canadian border-crossing in Ontario.
He should have been booted back to Germany but the USA was only avoiding a dragged out mess by
escorting him to the border and letting him cross into Canada,this triggered the refugee claim and thanks to a Court ruling 20 years ago,foreigners
were declared a minority group protected under our Charter of Rights and therefore anybody outside of Canada that steps foot on our soil has access to all the Social benefits as Citizens such as Welfare,free legal-aid,housing,dental care,medical coverage,and the added bonus for claiming refugee status is you can't be deported
for comitting crimes until all appeals are exhausted.
Canada spends about 700,000,000 dollars a year
on benefits for tourists that want to stay in the country as one of the 75 percent failed refugees
that can live on welfare for as many as 12 years according to a recent case of a war-criminal fighting the system since about 1992.
The wife of that Somali warlord was shipped to Canada with her 5 kids and held a press conference
with her lawyer to demand welfare as a refugee
since she wasn't responsible for her husbands
crimes of mass murder and corruption.
There are several articles on regular occations that deal with these absurd rulings and
only mock the system that was intended to help the true people fleeing violence or death,it wasn't made to protect the people doing the killing and torture but Lawyers love to argue Legal text and not moral obligations.
A Judge now ruled that police Spot-checks must provide a Lawyer so a alleged offender knows their Rights and must make a educated free-will
choice to volunteer information to Police about
any Alcohol consumtion.

Posted by: ala-sux at December 12, 2004 7:41 PM

thanks for the explanations ALA !
looks as if his wife Ingrid is still living in the USA .
it seems that these Holocaust deniers are recieving financial support from Muslim publishing houses such as the one run by ramadan,s brother.
Indeed Paul Garaudy, a long time antisemite, ex commie holocaust denier converted to islam to receive financial support from the "muslim brotherhood" and he and his ilk have been footing it to the ME for lucrative conventions, where they can spread their filth wothout interference from western justice.
Looks like Zundel missed that gravy train.

Posted by: george at December 12, 2004 9:56 PM

ala-sux, isn't that the Somali warlord's wife who regularly goes back to visit her husband, only to come back pregnant to saddle the Cdn taxpayer with another mouth to feed? The Cdn "refugee" system is one of the biggest jokes around. Didn't they also have Mexican and Argentinian tourists pull a scam by claiming refugee status, getting welfare and free hotel accommodation, then going back home when their "vacation" was over? And I've also heard of foreign students in America, claiming refugee status in Canada, getting welfare deposited in Cdn accounts, and they go back to the US to school and just regularly draw the welfare money out of their accounts for beer and book money.

So easy to pull the wool over Canada's eyes. So eager is she to appear so benevolent to the world's "oppressed masses" that it ends up being taken advantage of time and time again, like a pathetic fool. Oh, shock, horror! You mean a person claiming they are a refugee, can actually be lying and not be a refugee???? Astonishing!

Posted by: feralee at December 13, 2004 11:03 PM