Premier of Victoria

The Hon Steve Bracks
Office of the Premier
1 Treasury Place
Melbourne
Victoria
Australia 3000

(Steve Bracks is also the Minister for Multicultural Affairs)

The Attorney-General Philip Ruddock MP
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600

and

Prime Minister
The Hon John Howard
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600

These are addresses to send letters of protest to, please keep them very polite and to the point. Let our Australian politicians know the eyes of the world are upon them. A barrage of concerned letters at this inequality will bring this issue out, one letter is counted as a large slice of public opinion.

Cheers and Thank you

Posted by: meredith at December 20, 2004 9:35 AM

Every time I think it can't get anymore crazy, a story like this causes me to go ever closer to the edge of near despair.

I need a beer while it is still allowed here in Eurabia.

Occupied Europe out.

Resigned to dhimmitude/

Posted by: Andrew at December 20, 2004 9:38 AM

Someone else here mentioned the idea that these legal actions are kind of a precedence setting exersize with the intention of unleashing it later on islam.
Hopefully that is true.

Posted by: kentim at December 20, 2004 9:49 AM

It is not over until this court case goes to the Supreme court. This dangerous legal precedent could yet be overturned.

Also, remember that these opressive anti-villification laws that infringe on religious discourse exist only in the state of Victoria and not in the other Australian States.
This is a very early (I think the first) test case/application of these dumb laws and I think now that people can see how these laws work in practice they will start asking for them to be overturned.

Posted by: obl r us at December 20, 2004 9:57 AM

Is there another "Calcutta" quran petition (Victoria-style) in the works?

Posted by: 3812Michelle at December 20, 2004 10:13 AM

If you can't call evil evil, how will you ever be able to recognize it before it consumes you?

Posted by: Greg at December 20, 2004 1:01 PM

And this is just what the leftist media and kj academia in the US would have done to us if kerry had gotten in. Activist judges would have made that certain.

Posted by: Gary at December 20, 2004 1:04 PM

Munich, 1972, Israel on a daily basis, Kenya, Tanzania, U.S.S. Cole, Beirut, Sudan, Van Gogh, Ryhad, Nick Berg, Paul Johnson, Ken Bigley, Margaret Hassan, Eugene Armstrong, Somalia, Korean Kim Sun-Il, Pakistani beheadings, car bombs, suicide bombs, kidnappings, rapes, hate speeches against non-muslims, Iraqi security forces assassinations, oil facility bombings, CAIR......

No need to go any further, Muslims......

Read this list and ask your own rotting, malnourished, sawed off, odor ridden racist, headscarf wearing Hitler wannabe souls why the world hates you, and it should be clear to you why the world will see you die and burn in hell for your crimes.

Posted by: Prickzilla at December 20, 2004 1:09 PM

I'll keep 9/11 separate, because it hit closest to home for me......Muslims are whining about so many Americans saying they'd restrict Muslims civil rights in the U.S. I'd be more apt to restrict their ability even stay in the nation at all.

No Islamic law for you, ever.

Posted by: Prickzilla at December 20, 2004 1:44 PM

I love the fact that this decision is supported by the Catholic church, and other christian denominations.

One day these churches won't be able to exist in an Islamic republic. Which has become easier to put in place, because of this ruling.

Posted by: Voltaire at December 20, 2004 2:15 PM

You know, I wonder if in the 1930's, people felt that criticising Nazism was seen as racist and anti-German?

Posted by: Voltaire at December 20, 2004 2:16 PM

I have absolutely no doubt that it was, Voltaire. However the terms would have been different and Leftist apologists for islam would argue it was not the same thing.

Posted by: Gary at December 20, 2004 2:57 PM

"How can it be vilifying to Muslims in the [court]room when I am just reading from the Koran?" Scot asked the tribunal -- a question observers said basically could have applied to the entire case.

This begs the question: is the Qur'an self-villifying?

Posted by: Mike at December 20, 2004 3:23 PM

Meredith is quite right . we do need to write to canberra.

Perhaps Hugh , whose elequent writing inspires us all , could pen a draft which we could adjust or adapt individually?

Hopefully the Judge will be lambasted by the likes of Andrew Bolt and the tim blair website.

But a succinct letter to canberra would be beneficial

Posted by: george at December 20, 2004 3:40 PM

Regarding Robert's statements:

"I wonder how long it will be before they come for us."

If this story is a harbinger of things to come, maybe sooner rather than later.

"I hope some of you will visit me in prison."

I'll be there with you. At that point, the country will look nothing like the Declaration or Constitution. Confused insanity will rule the day, as obviously it does in Victoria now.

Posted by: ted at December 20, 2004 3:50 PM

An article on this issue at FrontPage:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16365

Excerpt:"What I asked the Home Secretary concerned his department's proposed law against "religious hatred". Readers may remember that, last week in this column, I defended the right of people to say - though it is not a proposition with which I agree - that the Prophet Mohammed was a paedophile.
So my question to whoever happens to be Home Secretary is whether it would be an offence under the new law to assert this proposition. Muslims are also very offended by any pictorial depiction of the Prophet; so I asked whether such depictions would also be an offence under the law."

Posted by: Mike at December 20, 2004 4:40 PM

I hope some of you will visit me in prison.

Posted by: DrMack at December 20, 2004 5:03 PM

I'm glad that Judge Higgins found against the two pastors, as it has now raised this whole issue to a much higher level. If the judgement had gone in favour of the two pastors, the whole episode would have been forgotten, while muslims would have gone into overdrive in the victimisation mode.

All in all a 'good' judgement, as it has raised the awarenes of many Aussies to the threat to freedom of expression.

'Australian' muslims or muslims who live in Austrlia, have made a tactical mistake in bringing this action. Even if they win in the higher courts, it would be a victory which would eventually lead to their defeat. The Australian public is not going to take this lying down. Meanwhile, the two pastors will become martyrs, sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.

You cannot stifle a free nation of free citizens, particularly one that is used to freedom as one is to breathing. Aussies are notoriously un-PC and wear their freedom with the ease of those born to it.

Posted by: DP111 at December 20, 2004 6:02 PM

I know this is off topic, but I urgently need some help on this forum thread!

About a week ago, I appealed for help on this liberal forum about religion. I had convinced an ex-Muslim woman to post her testimony. I also appealed to liberal anti-jihadis to post their views (I want to remove the right-wing stigma from anti-jihadism). Unfortunately, I did not get help from anyone (other than Mike) and I am being denounced for my "bigotry" by someone who has a lot more time to post than me. Behold the legacy of Chomsky and Said:

"Your bigotry of reason is more interesting than a bigotry of faith, but it uses the familiar 20th-21st century patterns of bigotry: the some-of-my-best-friends gambit at the opening ("A Muslim colleague from India helped me alot in the lab during in graduate school"); conflation of the acts of the faithful for the inherent value of the faith ("Then what other tools should we use to determine whether or not a given religion is worthy of respect?"); the appeal to Higher Authorities for support -- in your case, John Quincy Adams and John Hume."

"BIGOTRY OF REASON"!

My God, the sheer idiocy of this doublespeak takes my breath away!!!

You may think that debating idiots like this is a total waste of time.

It isn't.

Many other liberals are viewing the show. And everytime someone posts, the topic goes to the top. Every time the post goes to the top, more liberals are more likely to see it. Here is the thread:

http://forums.bluelemur.com/viewtopic.php?t=1028&start=30

Come on folks! These are the people who really need to get this message, and liberal anti-jihadis (and former liberals) are often some of our most important allies. Circle-jerking with other anti-jihadis hardly qualifies as a "war" of ideas! Let's face our opponents and get in the game (not just get it on).

P.S. Sorry for the vulgar analogy Robert. I really need to get these people's attention ;-)

Posted by: Rublev at December 20, 2004 6:47 PM

If reading from the Koran constitutes vilification of Islam, and it is everywhere in Australia, illegal to vilify Islam. Then, police should enter mosques and be ready to arrest Muslims lest they vilify what should not be vilified.

But, anyone who has read the Koran knows that the intent of that book is not to vilify Islam (surrender to Allah), but to demand that surrender upon the threat of very real vilification, i.e. subjugation or death; that is what Infidels deserve, according to that Book. Read it and say it isn't so. Please.

Posted by: JTF at December 20, 2004 7:03 PM

I'm of the opinion that the case was decided before it was tried as well. Or that somebody "had a talk" with the judge while he spent that inordinate amount of time (almost a year) coming to his decision.

Yes, how ironic that Pastor Scot escaped an intolerant Islamic hellhole only to be tormented by them here. Just goes to show - wherever Islam goes, trouble follows.

Reading aloud from the Koran is villification? They obviously have a lot to hide then. You start reading the hatred & intolerance that drips & oozes out of that war manual and you can't help but think poorly of those who believe in that stuff. Especially since they believe in it all, without modification. This is an attempt to keep their belief system hidden from open, honest review and discussion by the public. For they know, more people would think less of Islam if they knew what this ideology was really about. They're nervous that too many people are catching on. Thanks to the Internet and our freedoms in our superior Western societies, they hate the fact that their dogma is laid bare and exposed, subject to analysis and criticism. They want to keep any more of us from seeing it, from talking about it too freely. Unfortunately we have lots of self-loathing PeeCee-addled loony lefties who'll help hide the truth from the public.

I look forward to the appeal.

Posted by: feralee at December 20, 2004 10:17 PM

What bitter irony is this? Many Muslims came here as refugees, often they would reason that they were fleeing from lands where their freedom of speech was curtailed. And now they do this to us? Surely Islam is nothing but an alien cancer in this Great Southern Land.

Posted by: Timbo at December 20, 2004 10:32 PM

Rublev, I'm willing to respond to you because from what I've read of your posts you're intelligent, reasonable, and sensitive to Humanity, unlike the wankers you're asking us to deal with. Our small circle of cohorts, as it were, our cohort, is better left to find sympathizers among the already committed, those who are willing to come on board if only they knew where the plank is to walk up.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll meet liberal-leftists the day we go to the barricades in defense of Liberalism and Human freedom, and the Leftist-fascists will be the police on the other side. Take your metaphor as applied to them and go a lot further with it to describe my opinion of them. You're wasting your time with red Nazis who deserve nothing from us. They are collaborators in one of the worst Human tragedies of any century, certainly of this one: revivalist Islam. They, the Left fascists, are scum. Why waste your time trying to appeal to the reason of Nazis from the Left?

Anyone who idealizes murderers and savages because of a personal impotence, whether emotional or social, and considers himself an intellectual on that basis, that man is scum. The red fascist cliches deserve in response the "philosophy of the hammer." The fascist Left is so putrid and defiled there is no point trying to reason with them. It's harmful to even think about them. These are evil people. They hate Humanity, and they love only their own vanities. We need a bonfire. They are not redeemable. They cannot be saved from their personal committment to fascism. They are born to it, and there's nothing to be done but draw the lines between us and them and draw conclusions.

Everything is a matter of attitude in a free system such as this in which we find our Left fascist neighbours. They have chosen evil in the name of their own concerns for themselves at the expense of the world of people at large--those they hate. I cannot have a Nazi friend. They have chosen to be Nazis, and their choice is firm. They've already committed crimes against Humanity that can neither be forgiven nor forgotten. They had no reason to choose philobarbarism over reason other than that they chose to pose with Nazis, and having donned the uniform thought, they are damned for ever.

This is not some ideal world of Russian icon paintings, and faith in their eventual redemption is worthless. In the meantime how many more will they butcher and kill? Enough of them. Let us gather our own and make way for a new hope. There will always be fascists among us, and the struggle will always continue. Some will always choose hatred and evil over reason and freedom. We will always have to pick the side we choose to fight for.

Forget the scum Left. They have betrayed every noble purpose Man is born for, and they wallow in their own filth gleefully and sanctimoniously. To Hell with them. Let us gather our own. I would not accept a fascist coonvert in my presence. I do not need a peace offering from Bormann. I'll devise my own rockets if ever I have a need. I'll illustrate my own medical texts if it should come to that; but never will I take the fruits of a Nazi plant. They deserve nothing but hatred and expulsion.

We have many friends who do not know us yet, and we do sit in a vicious circle doing not enough. Over and over I've suggested we meet not the Nazi Left but our own supporters. That is something I hope you and others will take the time to act on. Some of our friends here have made large leaps in the direction I think is productive: meeting others and asking them to create the harvest that comes from this ground of our existence. In a matter of days now I hope to have a page we can print out and deliver, pravda, not some pseudo-intellectual Nazi rubbish pose. We will have our chance soon.

By chance I find I'm hearing Prokokiev's Alexander nevski Cantatta. I've walked through fields of the dead. there's no glamour or heroism about it. Dead people stink so badly you'd puke if ever you have to smell it. It makes me sick, and it makes me angry. I have to ask "Who did this?" And every time, it's someone who truely hates Humanity so bitterly that his only satisfaction in life is the power he has in the face of the suffering of others. Those who play this Nazi game play it because they are evil people at base, and there is no changing them other than from Red to White to Green and back again.

I'm torn between hating the destruction of people and loving the destruction of those who are evil. I'd rather sit and read in peace. But I will go out against the Nazis every time, regardless, whether I get the girl or no.

No, I won't do a thing to convince a red Nazi to join this war against evil. They've already chosen. I won't forgive them for they know what they do. So do I. So do you. Spend your time with ours.

Posted by: sonofwalker at December 20, 2004 10:54 PM

"I hope some of you will visit me in prison."

I'll chip in for the lawyer and bring the cake with the file in it.

Posted by: 3812Michelle at December 20, 2004 11:00 PM

Kentim ......... Someone else here mentioned the idea that these legal actions are kind of a precedence setting exersize with the intention of unleashing it later on islam.
Hopefully that is true.

here is a xmas pressie

NJ School District Sued Over Ban of Christmas Instrumentals

(CNSNews.com) - The South Orange/Maplewood, N.J., Board of Education finds itself the target of a federal lawsuit after extending its public school ban on Christmas songs to instrumental versions of the songs. The conservative Thomas More Law Center has filed the suit, charging that the school board's policy denies students "the ability to learn about and listen to music that has influenced the social, cultural, and historic development of civilization."

Posted by: meredith at December 20, 2004 11:46 PM

PS

here is link

http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewCulture.asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200412\CUL20041220a.html

Posted by: meredith at December 20, 2004 11:47 PM

To Rublev: There is not much to add to SonofWalker's heartfelt analysis. I might remind you that the leftists are sophists and narcissists. They dwell in a pretend world where they are smart and everyone else (especially conservatives) is stupid. With all of that self-proclaimed knowledge and understanding, it seems quite logical that they should take responsibility for their own destinies. Proselytizing will only get you so far (usually not very). As a very wise philosopher told me once about such kinds of people who willfully avoid truth: "Leave them in the mud."

Posted by: ted at December 21, 2004 12:58 AM

Sonofwalker: Excelent post, but you made a serious error of fact. The putrid Left, in fact, does love humanity: it's people that they can't stand, and would massacre in droves for the sake of their "humanity".

I hope you get my drift.

Posted by: Kepha1 at December 21, 2004 1:13 AM

“Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.”
SHOULD THE MAN WHO MADE THIS STATEMENT be arrested for Slamdering Islam and falsely presenting it as aggresive?

Only problem
This was the sentiment of Omar M. Ahmad, the Chairman of the Board of the Council on American-Islamic Relations or CAIR 1998

Posted by: george at December 21, 2004 2:05 AM

Rublev, Here's my solution for the left. Ask them about their progeny. They don't reproduce--at least enough. They have one foot in the demographic grave, and they are cussing conservatives as they put the second foot in. Tell them to have a good trip to hell.

Posted by: markjames at December 21, 2004 2:05 AM

Dear Son of Sam,

This is all a load of crap! Political correctness is not left or right. Christianity is not left or right. Free speech is not left or right. Many right wing governments in many countries let hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants into their lands, and the most capitalist and conservative of politicians lick the boots of the Saudis for the sake of oil. Why were the Pakistanis allowed into Britain? Answer: because big business wanted cheap labour! It's a fact. Thirty years ago the average Brit was earning too much for their liking.
The same thing is happening in the USA with the Mexicans, (although can I say that one Catholic Mexican is worth 50 Muslims).
Yes, a tiny amount of lefties would like to flood us with more Muslim refugees and see any attack against Islam as racist - but half of these lefties are under 25, and most of them, by the time they get to 45, will change their minds anyway, especially when they see what the world is going to be like then. The far left is a Red Herring in this debate.
Scum left, Nazi, left fascist... blah, blah, blah... Let's move on from all that 20th Century garbage. Have you just arrived in a time machine from 1964? If so, can I borrow it for a week or two? I want to go back there to tell them to forget the Commies and Nazis, and to watch the Muslims.

If other Westerners are confused about the true nature Islam, they should be educated, not abused.

Excuse me whilst I go off and wallow gleefully and sanctimoniously in my own filth.

Posted by: Timbo at December 21, 2004 2:23 AM

I think sonofwalker is a Muslim. An Anglo-Saxon name has been used quite purposely and yet in an awkward way - any English speaking Westerner would probably not use the foreign sounding "son of" prefix. Plus “Walker” ??? Hmmmm… Johnny Walker could that be? Are we being joked with here? In his post he does not mention Muslims once; he only talks about "Revivalist Islam" - whatever that means.
I am not being paranoid. Hear me out please. No Muslim can come on this site and debate with us because the Koran is mad and it does not stand up to any form of debate. However, you can bet your life that the Iranian, Saudi, Sudanese secret services pay this site a visit, not to mention Islamist groups. So what do they do? They go on here and pretend to be a Westerner, as mad as a box of frogs, and talk a load of political psycho-babble that only really attacks other Westerners, so as to make the site look as crazy as they are.

Be careful friends.

Posted by: Timbo at December 21, 2004 3:03 AM

Sonofwalker posted:

"Everything is a matter of attitude in a free system such as this in which we find our Left fascist neighbours [THE WEST]. They have chosen evil in the name of their own concerns for themselves at the expense of the world of people at large--those they hate [MUSLIMS]. I cannot have a Nazi [INFIDEL] friend. They have chosen to be Nazis [INFIDELS], and their choice is firm. They've already committed crimes against Humanity that can neither be forgiven nor forgotten. They had no reason to choose philobarbarism [SECULAR DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY] over reason [ISLAM] other than that they chose to pose with Nazis [CHRISTIANS/JEWS], and having donned the uniform thought, they are damned for ever."

THIS MUSLIM TERRORIST LOW LIFE IS TALKING ABOUT YOU AND ME. WE ARE HIS NAZIS.

Posted by: Timbo at December 21, 2004 3:27 AM

Timbo, you're a breath of fresh air.

I'm sick of conservatives and the religious right turning our anti-Islam crusade into a neo-conservative rant.

I'm sick to death of liberals, socialists, and people with no religious affiliation being attacked.

I can never forget what some-one once said : "After we get the muslims, then we'll go for the atheists." It sounded like something only a muslim would say. And the way that many people on this board attack western civilisation makes me sick as well. I LOVE western civilisation. Even at it's very worst, it's a thousand percent better than what you get in a muslim society.

That said: I don't believe that Son of Walker is a muslim. I have read too many of his posts, and they're damn good ones.

I think that you might be a tad bit paranoid.

Posted by: Voltaire at December 21, 2004 7:07 AM

Timbo, muslims have been to this site before; Reza, Naseem and others.

You're new here. How do we know that you're not a muslim?

Posted by: Voltaire at December 21, 2004 7:12 AM

Yes i agree, its a cultural attack, our societies are structured from our religious majority.

Left or right, theist or atheist is not really an issue within Western culture as we all got along reasonably well.

There is a misuse of political correctness by certain agendas, Western and Islam. That is the problem!!

Posted by: meredith at December 21, 2004 9:17 AM

I am Australian. This topic matters to me and it matters to our country and our freedom.
(I don't know where Voltaire, and Sonofsam are from.)
I get angry that this important debate is used as a platform to attack the left. I smell a rat! The left isn't the problem - Islam is the problem.
How do you know I'm not a muslim? Well...
A. I don't want to turn Westerner against Westerner like Sonofsam does.
B. I don't want to take people's focus off the real point of this debate, that is, Muslims taking away Australian freedom.
C. I say, Islam is Satanic and evil. Would a Muslim say that? No. Would Sonofwalker say that? I have read some of his posts, and he always beats around the bush as far as I am concerned.

Posted by: Timbo at December 21, 2004 9:34 AM

Thanks Voltaire,

The definition of "leftist" and "liberalism" is in the eye of the beholder, but (at least in theory) there is absolutely NO REASON why liberals should be defending Islam.

Herein lies the paradox of liberalism; in tolerating other points of view, liberals sometimes find themselves tolerating highly anti-liberal ideologies that spread intolerance.

Those of you on the right may call me a romantic fool, but I believe that most liberals would join our cause if they read the Koran (without the footnotes).

Four years ago I voted for Ralph Nader. Three years ago I read the Koran to prove that it was no worse than the Bible.

... Last November I voted the straight Republican ticket.

It would not be totally accurate for me to say that I was one of those conservatives who was "born" on 9/11, but that is when most of my conservative leanings were concieved. Even now I chafe at the label "conservative" because I still differ on many of their views.

Muslims conquered huges swathes of the Christian world because the Christian world was divided against itself. Leftists rags like The Nation perversely console themselves over electoral losses by praising America's divide. Let's not stoop to their level. We must close the divide. The alternative is national suicide.

Posted by: Rublev at December 21, 2004 9:50 AM

Timbo
Im in Oz to and the PC attitude to Islamic abuse of our culture and hospitality is done by some Ozzzys,

PC is a social mindset, a fad of thinking, but it is stopping Oz and other countries from basically saying No

Maybe the people who are PC and want to let this happen are sincerly thinking they are doing a good thing.

Dont you think it would be better if PC brainwashing, from the streets up to the universitys was reminded we have a right and a duty to choose for ourselves.

Wake up West

Posted by: meredith at December 21, 2004 11:13 AM

Voltaire, Timbo, and Meredith;

Put your money where your mouth is. Please post your thoughts on the thread I indicated on my earlier post.

Many on the right like to write of Charles Schumer as an "idiot," but 100 brilliant articles by Daniel Pipes can never sway liberals as effectively as Schumer's denunciation of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations) and his expose of their links with Hamas.

Only people like you can appeal to their liberal sensibilities to reject the legitimacy of Islam, regardless of what hard-core wankers are on the thread.

Posted by: Rublev at December 21, 2004 11:48 AM

Rublev posts: Those of you on the right may call me a romantic fool, but I believe that most liberals would join our cause if they read the Koran (without the footnotes).

Stranger things have happened.
If there is a silver lining to Theo van Gogh's assassination, it would be that people of all political stripes are waking up to the fact that their "liberal" values (freedoms) are under Islamofascist assault.
Perhaps the enormity of 9/11 was just too big a concept for many to wrap their minds around, but the van Gogh murder is something else entirely - I don't think there's any question many people are experiencing this much more personally and intimately than they did 9/11.

Posted by: Mike at December 21, 2004 11:55 AM

"Perhaps the enormity of 9/11 was just too big a concept for many to wrap their minds around"

Amen to that. I am so embarrased at my initial response to 9/11 I don't care to talk about it. Ultimately it was reading the koran that changed me, not 9/11 itself.

Posted by: Rublev at December 21, 2004 3:28 PM

I am so pissed-off I could choke. That alone makes me think we have some nasty little golem here causing a stir. If he'd actually addressed my points in a rational fashion I'd be willing to respond, but as is, ad hominem to the ground.

For the enlightenment of any of you who bothered to read what I wrote, nowhere i did I suggest we do anything about the Red Nazis in our midsts, and if you're interested enough to google sonofwalker you'll find I'm a passionate defender of free speech, maybe even a few days ago at this very site. If you've missed that, well, it's a busy place. But to respond, as some of you did, it makes me think Tibo is here to cause trouble. In a sense, I think that's fair enough, for our opponents feel that war is deceit, and what better deceit than the crap we got from Timbo. If you, on the other hand, don't pay attention to the things people write here, then there's not any real point in being angry about it.

I'm still pissed-off.

And no, I will not do anything to appeal to those who condone and applaud the murder of innocents, not in America, not in Israel, not nowhere. And, if you've ever paid any attetion to my posts, not even the murder of Moslems.

I'm not a baby-sitter. If you can't make sense on your own of what you read, then ask someone to explain things to you rather than jumping to ill-founded conclusions based on what someone like Timbo writes. examine some of your comments and compare them to what i actually wrote. Then ask yourself what you think of his tirade. You've been had, folks. And I am really pissed-off about it.

Posted by: sonofwalker at December 21, 2004 8:37 PM

Son of Walker, we know that you're one of us.

But so is Timbo.

He's right. Why do we waste so much time attacking each other.

Who cares if some-one is left or right, liberal, socialist or conservative, christian, or atheist.

Every time KJ comes here he gets attacked, and yet he is on our side in this war.

Has anybody ever heard of the phrase, "United we stand, divided we fall?"

We will fall if we keep bringing politics and religion into it.

We must stand together! Let's stop our bickering.

Posted by: Voltaire at December 21, 2004 9:10 PM

Sonofwalker still did not rise to my challenge to insult Islam though did he? Call me paranoid, nasty, of whatever, but I'm still not convinced. He didn't even say "I am not a Muslim".

Voltaire, I know my comments are not eloquent and I know there are people better informed than me here. However, what I can say for sure is that if the comments here turn into a rant against the left ("Forget the scum Left...","Red Nazis..." etc.)It seriously detracts from the debate. In whose interest is it to detract from this anti-Islamic debate? Not mine!

As far as I am concerned pure Socialism doesn't work, but what I will say for the Communist nations, is that they never invited any outside Muslim immigration, and made great attempts to secularise any Muslims that were already within their nations. We are so used to saying that the socialist regimes did everything wrong... but did they? (They put the first satellite and man in space didn't they?)
The Capitalist conservative West did the complete opposite. You will also find that very conservative regimes like Margaret Thatchers' in the UK opened their doors as much as anybody to Muslims. And those 5 million Muslims in America? Who put them there?
So why attack the "reds"? What the hell do they have to do with this problem? In Cuba, I think you will find the biggest Muslim ghetto is the US military base! When the USSR tried to crush militant Islamists in Afghanistan, it was a war on freedom. When the US did exactly the same thing to the same people (and I do mean the SAME people) it was a war for freedom. To bring the far left and commies into this debate as a pro-Muslim bugbear, is crass. In my own personal opinion it degrades a fantastic site. Anyway - these Muslims are rightists as far as I am concerned!!!
Muslims stopping free speech is an issue for every Westerner, whatever their political beliefs. This attacks my freedom as much as yours. The knife we have pointed at our throats pricks our flesh in the same way. We will all bleed the same blood. This is not a political debate - it's far more serious than that.

Posted by: Timbo at December 22, 2004 2:25 AM

You're a brilliant thinker Timbo.

Yes, you're absolutely right.

I myself have pointed out in the past that Bush is snuggling up to Saudi Arabia, and that Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia, is very often part of foreign policy in the White House.

Why was Afghanistan made an Islamic republic? Why did American and British, and Australian soliders die there? What was that for? To make Islam the official state religion in Afghanistan?

What about christians or other religions who live there? What would have wrong about having a secular society in Afghanistan?

And why has Iraq been made into an Islamic republic?

What about Iraqi christians living there? DON'T THEY COUNT!
And George Bush says that he's such a great christian. Yet he couldn't be more pro-Islam if he tried.

Something is screwy!

Please keep posting here. I really want to know more of what you say.

Posted by: Voltaire at December 22, 2004 3:53 AM

Rublev,

good on you with the posts on bluelemar. I posted on there as you asked, I have seen that girls letter before its shocking and does reinforce that not even a neighborhood, let alone a society can co exist peacefully with Islamic social structures, in any way at all.

here is my post
http://forums.bluelemur.com/viewtopic.php?p=6601#6601

Cheers

Posted by: meredith at December 22, 2004 3:57 AM

Meredith -

Who are the PCs here? The Greens & Dems, right? Who votes Green & Dem? Well, I'm sure over 50% of their vote bank are Muslims because they are so anti-American and pro-refugee, so the Greens etc. are not really Australian in nature, although their leadership (the "shop front") is. Don't forget it was left Labour that set up the detention camps for Muslims. Liberals are a bit firmer on this stance, but only by a small amount.

Voltaire -

Thanks, but don't encourage me too much, or there will be no stopping me. The left gets attacked for being in a dark stinking hole that the right pushed us into!
About this PC thing. Two years ago if I had said "no war in Iraq" many would have called me a pro-Muslim PC leftie. Now thanks to that wonderful CONSERVATIVE Bush it looks as if Iraq is going to go down the same road as Iran. Sadam was a tyrant (an evil bastard in fact) but in many ways he was a good Socialist. He was quite secular, protected the Christians and kept the lid on militant Islam. He did not have any any WMDs either. Socialism in the Middle East is proven to be the only true weapon against militant Islam. Look at Libya - they are even saying to the EU not to admit Turkey! Do you conservatives here realise you have some views more in common with the Communist government in Libya than with your own governments? It stings - but it's true.

Socialism is not the problem, it is the answer to this problem. There are millions and millions of Chinese Muslims and they are no problem when handled by Marxists. God help China if the left falls from power. In Thailand you have got conservative, royalist capitalists running the show, and it's chaos. OK, capitalism produces great consumer goods in better quantity - but hey, if the price is Islamic domination and environmental collapse, I'll put up with a crappy Lada instead of a BMW any day.

Anyway, now I'm going back on what I said, and I am turning it into a political debate. The important thing here is "your enemy's enemy is your friend" Left or Right - it doesn't really matter.

Posted by: Timbo at December 22, 2004 5:37 AM

sonofwalker:

Not that it's much consolation, but you're a well-known and much-respected regular contributor to this forum. Timbo is new, and perhaps not entirely used to the freedom with which we anti-jihadists, from all political persuasions, express our perspectives.

We all reiterate constantly that degenerating into internal political debates is divisive and counter-productive and then we turn around and repeat the behavior. But when push comes to shove, we all know who we want at our backs - each other.

Timbo:

I don't know the situation in Australia except for what our regulars from there post in this forum, but here in the US the left is completely and utterly aiding the cause of islam,blindly and apparently willingly oblivious to what their fate would be under the establishment of a worldwide caliphate. The left in this country IS GETTING IN THE WAY OF OUR FIGHT AGAINST ISLAM, and that is why you see so much resentment for the left here. Even kj, our resident "lib'rul", admits that he is virtually one of a kind and wages an almost constant battle to convince his fellow liberals of the perils of islam, but to almost no avail. Those of us aware of the threat are constanly being frustrated by special "protections" and "rights" for those whose goal is to destroy our very civilization, pushed upon us by misguided members of our own society.

If you decide to stick around at JW/DW, you are going to see a lot of left/liberal bashing. If you care about the Cause, the Fight against islamofascism, you'll develop a thicker skin and realize what our priorities are. If you're too offended by the partisan nature of some of the posts, I'm sure you'll move along. But I defy you to find an anti-jihad site run by the left. Find us just one, please, and we'll all become a "band of brothers", partisanship aside. Until then, the challenge for you will be to keep your own focus on the issue, rather than criticize/rebuke/respond to everyone else's departure from it. If you choose to do that here, you're going to be awfully busy.

The bottom line is that we need you, and more like you. I hope you decide to stick around.

Posted by: CGW at December 22, 2004 7:00 AM

Timbo,

This last Aussie election seemed to be not the usual Liberal and slightly less Liberal “Labour” main two parties up for grabs. (The right is called Liberal here in Australia and left is called Labour) Labour here I have always thought are originally the early union movement and that is the true left not PC.

Here I think in comments on this forum its is worth making the distinction between leftist union type stands and politically correct neutrality

This time Labour was trying on some PC policies, i.e. refugee rights and green support.

The Liberal right won of course hands down, I assumed due to the War on terrorism and the immaturity of the Labour candidate.

To me PC is a fad much as Social Darwinism was around the time of WW1 and WW2.

Me, I’m a swinging voter, some lefty issues and some right wing ones. So I vote accordingly, which is often very hard due to preference votes etc. I discriminate on each issue be it left, PC or right. I agree with Rublev we need left right and especially PC all onside, I am trying to convince PC is true equality to call a spade a spade.

I don’t like driscrimiphobia, and so on those grounds I dislike PC.

I did not realise it was Labour that set up the detention centres. Thanks for telling me.

CGW
Yes PC affects the ease of Dhimmi here in Oz to.

Posted by: meredith at December 22, 2004 8:51 AM

Timbo is a plant.

Posted by: sonofwalker at December 22, 2004 1:01 PM

Rublev

This Crow is uncapable of of even basic reason.

i have tried with him for 2 pages on the forum.

http://forums.bluelemur.com/viewtopic.php?t=1028&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

when you read the confused defensive garbage he answers with and then see the very recent post in dhimmi watch re Europe loosing its guts or spitit

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/004409.php#comments

Its hard

Posted by: meredith at December 22, 2004 1:25 PM

When I wrote "plant" I sort of had in mind turnip or perhaps nightshade. Well, so much for my sense of humor.

Posted by: sonofwalker at December 23, 2004 2:32 PM

As a Christian and a concerned Aussie, I am not so much upset by this decision, as I am by the political stupidity that enacted this legislation in the first place.

The citizens of Victoria should be in the streets demanding the repeal of this legislation that is an afront to free speech.

There are many opinions we will never agree with, but surely in this country there should be the absolute right to be able to state them.

This decision is not so much a pro-Islamic decision, as it is an anti-Christian decision. Could you imagine the absurdity of a Christian organisation taking to court some group because they dared quote from the Bible? And forbid they ever read aloud the Bible in Court. The case would be chucked out on its ear.

When will we ever get it through our thick heads that we don't need legislation that protects a particular minority group, or groups of minorities, but rather we need legislation that is equally applied to all Australians regardless of their preferences, social, religious, political or sexual.

By the way, when was it ever a crime to speak the truth that is supported by verifiable facts. Surely it is only vilification (and for that matter defamation) when you speak un-truths, and opinions, not supported by facts. And even then, while you shouldn't be able to publicly speak lies, your own opinions should always be allowed to be published.

I would like one question answered though, on a slightly different tangent. If the US is so concerned about terrorism emanating out of the muslim Middle East, then why to do they continue to pour petro dollars into these very countries that then use that money, to send bombs back. There are many patents locked up in the Petrol Corporations safe's for water powered motor vehicles. A simple declaration of the US parliament that these things are now in the public domain, due to national security, would permit western democracies to sever their dependance and therefore funding of these muslim extremists. So why don't they have the guts to make it so?

Posted by: OxConcerned at December 27, 2004 7:22 AM